Gilda was the Holiday killer all along cause she wanted to protect her husband nad have be part of her life. Harvey took the fault cause he wanted to protect her, and Alberto took the credit to prove he was worthy of the Family name. There, you all understand now?
As a long time Batman fan, I think the Long Halloween is a good story, flaws and all. The ending isn't as confusing as some people would have you think. There was only one Holiday killer and it was Gilda. Alberto's "confession" was a lie, he was trying to show daddy Carmine that he was worthy of being part of the family business. Two Face confessed because he wanted to protect Gilda.
I thought Gilda did the first 3 (somehow) and then Harvey figured it out and tried to do the 4th one but failed (Alberto escaped, somehow). Then Alberto took over which is why Holiday started attacking the other crime families, whereas previously he only attacked the Falcones. I don't know why Gilda didn't do the 4th one (New Year's day) but she clearly thought Harvey did this one, so she couldn't have been behind it.
@uanime1 I thought that too for awhile, but Jeph Loeb has pretty much said there was only one killer and in Batman The Last Halloween, he said the true identity of Holiday will be revealed. All I'm going to say is, after reading the first two issues, it doesn't look good for Gilda.
@@thibaldus3I think that’s exactly why people feel so divided about this story: Some think it’s terrible because they struggle figuring out who Holiday is and others have fun trying to figure out Holiday’s identity. All hinges on the fact that the answer is not delivered to us.
@@thibaldus3 The answers being unclear is part of the story's appeal in my opinion. It really makes you think and want to go back to see if the pieces fit together.
Same here, except for the fact that Paul Dini turned me into a Hush fanboy thanks to his *"Heart of Hush"* , followed by *"Hush Money"* & *"House of Hush"* ... Scott Snyder's *"Gates of Gotham"* was another pretty damn good Hush story. To go back to the very first *"Hush"* by Jeph Loeb, IMHO it has some merit as a book to give to a friend who wants to get into Batman seriously, and doesn't know what comic book to read first. "Hush" introduces a bunch of characters, allies & enemies, and Jim Lee's drawings are wonderful. Sure, nowadays the mystery isn't that hard to figure out, even though at the time lots of people had their money on Jason Todd, but for an intro into the Batverse, you could do worse. Unpopular opinion: The DCAMU "Hush" wasn't _that_ bad, flipping the script on its head was a good idea IMO, people would have complained anyway if Tommy was the villain, so why not have the mastermind of the original story also be the muscle? Sure it wasn't _great_ , and I'd put it in the bottom half of the DCAMU, but I don't seem to hate it with the same passion as most people did when it came out.
@@randallflagg3700I agree with pretty much everything you said except the part about the Hush movie. Spoilers for Hush (the movie): To me the movie took away from the character of Tommy Elliot to unnecessarily add something to the Riddler whom already had a very important role in the story. In fact, in the movie Riddler is treated as a Joke even more after being revealed as the mastermind, while in the original story he was treated seriously once he was revealed as the one pulling the strings. To each their own, of course. Personally, I don’t really like changes only for shock value or in order to surprise the audience. The Long Halloween movie did something similar and I could tell what the twists were going to even before watching part 2.
@@poopooman-q7r "The Killing Joke" actually deserves the praise it gets, and even more. I honestly don't believe anyone has ever come near to nailing Batman as well as Moore did, not to mention how he succeeded in making a story revolving around the Joker's past without ruining the character; it was handled perfectly. Knightfall is another title that's as good as its fame suggests, or at least about as much. Among the bad "famous" Batman stories (by which "bad", I merely mean "not as good as people make them out to be", basically not worth the status they gained) I'd put "The Long Halloween" (plus sequels), "Hush", and "The Dark Knight Returns". I still have to pick up the No Man Land's saga, so I can't give my thoughts on that. The truth is, most of Batman's "best stories" are just issues within the long-running series rather than self-confined titles, so... you really won't hear people mentioning them because they don't reach the "general public" as easily, and, as a result, people who get into the comics never pick them up.
I wouldn't go so far to say it sucks, but I think making Harvey Dent a bad guy before his disfigurement kind of cheapens the impact of his fall from grace. Like the tragedy of Two-Face to me is a man who was handed a pretty shitty hand growing up desperately trying to be better and not give into his worst tendencies FAILING to do so and becoming a criminal, but still it's not completely a part of Harvey Dent survives in Two-Face.
It’s been such a long time since I read this I actually had it but I gave it away when I moved I always had mixed feelings: Dents background is a hit or miss. This case is kind of a double edged sword(or appropriately enough a coin toss) In this case you could say dents double life as the district attorney with a secret dark background is personified by the disfigurement But you’re right: the impact of the disfigurement usually stems from Dents normally cleaner persona and i think the best interpretations usually involve his sense of reality being warped with said disfigurement
I'd say Harvey was always going lose self control at some point, disfigurement or not. The cracks in his mind and personality appeared before the acid showed who he really is underneath. He doesn't start the story a villan but the threads are there. It just makes you question your own morality and lets you decide how far Harvey had to fall to become Two-Face. And with his complete fall from grace being an effect of his own wife, it truly is a spectacular tragedy. He wasn't a saint. But he wasn't sqeeky clean. That's why he worked so well with Batman and Jim Gordon. They all bend the rules. Only, Harvey would snap and decide to break them instead.
I have to agree with a lot of this. I think that if I hadn't read so many of your excellent recommendations first, I would've enjoyed this. Having read material that was so much better, I was pretty underwhelmed. I do like some of the major batman stories but the real hidden gems are the more obscure stories.
Long Halloween is only good for newbies. When i first got into comics i was hyped with everything i read and i used to have the "correct opinions" that the fanbase had. But then i became an adult and i realised that most of the fanbase doesn't even read comics (or at least have read only the mainstream ones) and actually shapes its opinion on top ten lists videos on TH-cam that have no originality.
@@tayojones9460 it's just an objective observation. Fanboys get hyped with cheap and mediocre products. I know. I've been there. Most fanboys are just consumers. You cannot deny it. It's a fact. Quality is not good. Art, like beauty and morality, isn't subjective. You can enjoy mediocre cheap stuff from time to time. I do it too. But becoming a fanboy that bases his opinions solely on what the others like and spending all that unnecessary money is pathetic. That's why i judge it. If you cannot understand this simple fact, then don't even bother responding. Edit: and i dont hate that story. I just don't like fanboys praising it like it's the best batman story ever.
@@jhngrg8132 I dunno hoss if a majority folks love it then maybe it's just good enough and honestly it's about time someone says it comics books aren't good quality for stories, they are schlocky, corny and at times hamfisted. Long Halloween is like every other Batman story in that regard it's not really much of a difference.
@@kwayneboy1524 I'm sorry but you're missing apples for oranges. A comic book having plot holes and bad writing is not the same as a comic book including/omitting certain elements because the media/editors require it. There's difference between pulling out "Somehow Joker returns" because you need him for the plot even though he got killed in a previous story, and you don't have the time to properly set up a fleshed out explanation for his reappearance, and pulling out "Somehow Joker returns" after he got killed in _your own_ story just because you want some cheap plot twist.
Mr Rogues keeps dying and then came back to life. Also, thank you for highlighting the weird mystery. I never understood it, especially Gilda's involvement. The ending was just so weird.
As interpreted by me The joke is that there is only one killer, which is Gilda. Harvey says he is the Holiday killer because he killed Falcone, who was the main mobster, and because he has gone crazy. And Alberto, in an attempt to get his father's attention, kills Maroni and proclaims himself the Holiday killer.
The attempt on Alberto’s life in this case would be Alberto faking his own death to steal Holiday’s thunder, right? Gilda pretty much tells us it wasn’t her and I can’t see Harvey getting on that ship without being recognized by anyone either as Holiday or the D.A.
@@Victor-qx3vx Do you want me to tell you the truth? I never understood that part Whose corpse did Falcone see? XD I've always thought that Gilda tried to kill Alberto, he survives, and hides until he kills Maroni. There is another option that there were really two assassins, Gilda and Harvey, because of one of the conversations Batman has with the Calendar Man. Although everything is very ambiguous And Alberto may have killed the examining magistrate, although it is also justifiable that he did not. I think the Alberto thing is the weirdest thing in the comic xD
Carmine probably buried an empty casket. There is no body if they assume Alberto was shot and fell from the ship. Then again… Batman mentions it that Alberto would’ve killed the examine magistrate for him knowing “the wrong corpse was in Alberto’s tomb” or something along these lines. So.. yeah, whose body was buried after Alberto’s supposedly died?
@@Victor-qx3vx is te magical corpse XD Some guy dies and nobody cares, except Falcone who thinks is Alberto But is not Alberto Batman, Hello? Do Something! XD Who knows Somebody die in Gotham , the usual I supose XD
@@themadtitan7603I can’t speak for him, but it could be due to being a Halloween story and Scarecrow being the villain who enjoys inflicting terror the most.
"By issue 5 I already know who Carmine Falcone is" Yeah, but someone who saw issue 5 on the newstands when it came out and hadn’t read the other issues first wouldn’t.
Yeah. When I was a kid I remember buying issue 3 first (because it was the one available at the store) and those repetitions helped me understand who the characters I didn’t know were.
FINALLY. Someone else has noticed how annoying the repetitive phrases are. Thank you. I’ve never understood how some of rogues are supposed to be different from the mobsters. The mobsters want money. So do the supervillains. Ivy has powers, but she still seems to just want money. Doesn’t seem all that outlandish of a criminal to me. Mad Hatter, at least here, is just a guy with a gun who quotes children’s books. He seems odd, but he also seems to want money. Same with Scarecrow. Half of these people are just thugs in colorful costumes. Also, Penguin pops up in the finale. He isn’t in the story beforehand. I speculate that Loeb forgot to use him or couldn’t find a way to incorporate him into the story, but felt he couldn’t leave him out, so just threw him in there. I feel that Penguin, as an eccentric and gadget-using master thief, is both realistic and outlandish enough to fit this story’s tone. In my view, Grundy is the only rogue that works all that well, because Loeb was able to thematically tie him to Two-Face’e arc. And I don’t think he should be a Batman villain, so that should tell you something if he’s the one I think works best. I like the way Joker’s personality is written, his terrible jokes and dialogue suit the character, but his motivations don’t make sense to me. He wants to kill Holiday because… there isn’t room for two homicidal maniacs in Gotham. But by that logic, he should go after all the other villains. Tim Sale’s art is superb, though. I think we all agree. Minor correction. The connection between Catwoman and Falcone was revealed in Dark Victory, but wasn’t fleshed out until When In Rome. So Loeb probably had the idea from about the start, but he took forever to really explore it. I like Gordon in this story. He’s not focused on much, but he feels like a grounded, human element in the midst of all the plot holes. I think like Batman could have had a better role in this story. There are interesting bits, like Falcone’s attempted corporate takeover, his romance with Catwoman, his father’s relationship to Falcone, but none of them are fully explored. To sum up, Dark Victory is better. Two-Face beats up the Joker in that one. A refreshing change of pace.
I always thought it's odd that Grundy was in this story & I feel a villain like Croc might've made more sense in his place as a firmly established, sympathetic, monstrous rouge in Batman's gallery that dwells in the sewers.
@@themadtitan7603yeah, I was actually thinking that. In fact, I think it makes more sense, and gives the chance to see the more sympathetic side of Croc that we don’t usually get. Although, how would a conversation between him and Two-Face go?
@ in the film and book, Two Face interacted with Grundy during Labor Day, and it had this symbolism of rebirth. I’m just wondering that if Croc were to take Grundy’s place, how would the interaction be different?
@@mikephelps9238 I see. I was thinking it might've been about the symbolic element & I feel I have very little idea on how they'd approach incorporating him in that role regarding his connection with Harvey. One I had would be for Croc to be more recurring early on as a recluse from society out of fear & shame for his appearance & later through his interaction with Harvey, he embraces his appearance as the former embraces his while they stand by side by side with other freaks who's lives have also been ruined or worsened by those who held the power. I envision this Croc having been used as a henchmen by the Falcone's in the past but was usually mistreated by them. I'd be interested in hearing your ideas or anyone else's.
I never got why Loeb had Riddler talk exclusively in riddles and had Scarecrow quote nursery rhymes. Yes Nygma's obsessed with riddles but he doesn't only speak in them.
That’s something that bothers me about his Scarecrow as well. I miss the speeches and sadistic glee caused by his so called research. TLH’s Scarecrow seems like someone who’s completely crazy to the point of being incomprehensible and that’s a shame.
@@Victor-qx3vx I feel like even though he had Crane and Tetch team up he confused the two of them because it's Hatter who quotes nursery rhymes not Scarecrow.
Yes, finally somebody else with the guts to say it! I like Tim Sales' art, but Jeph Loeb is easily one of, if not THE MOST, underrated Batman writers. In my opinion. His stories seem to rely on attempted atmosphere, character inundation and nonsensical but dramatic twists to get by. Such a shame it distracted from other better writers from the time, like Dixon or Grant.
An upload from Mr. Rogues, and it's not a former patreon exclusive video? Today is a good day. The Long Halloween is like Loeb's other famous year-long Batman story - Hush. Both are more style over substance (the art is superb) and are better for newer fans rather than long-time fans. They are what you get from the clickbait top 10 lists that most new fans will come across. I liked both when I was new to reading comics, but upon a more recent read through, I found it to be not as good as I first thought and kind of a chore when you think about the plots. Paying homage with this story comes across as taking pages from the Tarantino playbook of writing, but more on the nose. I'll always enjoy rereading Year One and The Dark Knight Returns more than this, but what I've learned reading comics over the years is the best stories aren't the big spectacle books written for the trade that get all the attention, it's the single issues that tell you something about the characters one piece at a time.
Great video. Most of the Batman storyarcs that DC markets as the 'best" are actually mediocre and/or not representative of him, his supporting cast and rogues (look at how TLH treats Mad Hatter and Scarecrow.) The best Batman comics are usually by the people who had long runs, like Gerry Conway, Doug Monech, Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Devin Grayson, Grant Morrison and Paul Dini. But people aren't willing to wade through huge stacks of individual comics that sometimes have varying art styles. Case in point: I recommended JM DeMatteis' 'Going Sane' as the best Joker story, but the person refused to read it because they thought Joe Staton's art was "horrible" (i.e., not as flashy as Sale's or Lee's.)
This used to be one of my favorite comics, but upon a recent reread I found myself struggling to get through it. I think TLH is a really great one time experience, especially if you’re new to comics or younger. Repeat readings just bring out the flaws, if you made this video a year ago I would have disagreed. Now…I have all the same issues.
People talk about how this story did loads for calendar man but I disagree.. making a new villain that just copies calendar man’s whole gimmick and having calendar man himself just be a bald guy who consults useless info on it is lame as fuck. They should of just made it a calendar man story through and through
I haven't read the comic but reading more about it through discourse & watching the animated film(s) surprised me how small & non-impactful his role here in the story is given the hype I've read about it for years. They depict him in a Hannibal Lecter-like role & as a serial killer villain who Batman already captured so he consults him on the Holiday case, but he offers next to nothing of significance in that department; even Batman in the film says it's a waste of time. From what I've seen, I think I prefer the Arkham City version which is based on The Long Halloween version as he comes off more intimating & interesting even with his limited presence through his stories & ominous disappearance. And as you said, I feel I always I thought on some level, why is Calendar Man not the killer or at least heavily involved in the murders given Holiday is using his gimmick. That could've been a way to actually elevate his character by making him at the heart of mystery graphic novel set in a seminal moment of Batman's career.
@@kwayneboy1524 I think if they had done the same concept on a more established villain it would of worked better cause we would of seen plenty of stories with that villain already, so approaching them in the new angle of dealing with a copy cat is interesting. However when you do it to a character that literally has never got to have a good story before it just feels like a waste
@@kwayneboy1524 As the OP replied to you, I think it'd work with Calendar Man because he's a lower-tier villain who might've had even less exposure back then he does now & it'd be a darkly different take to audiences back then. I do wonder if readers back then would've guessed the twist though given the Holiday reveal.
Yeah I started noticing that in the animated movie, I really don’t get this Holiday killings anyway but who does Loeb think he is, M Night?! I never get why Penguin is in this as he only appears in the final battle and wasn’t in the previous chapters?
I think Loeb must have something against the character because he’s the one of first villains to be arrested in dark victory and he barely has anything to say and he doesn’t even appear in Hush
I've read that apparently he was figuring it out as he goes & also wanted it to be open-ended (which seems like a recipe for a potentially confusing story) unlike Dark Victory where he had it all planned out from the start, or at least early on. Which some say is why the latter made for a better mystery & story.
Ok, first thing first, welcome back Mr Rogues \o/ second, I havent watched the video yet, but I agree with the title, "The Long Halloween" not really being that good has always been one of my shameful Batman takes that I keep in my closet. For what it's worth, I believe that the Tomorrowverse adaptation actually improved on the story, except for the obvious plothole of "there is absolutely no way that Gilda was that big dude on the boat who shot Alberto, and later shot Sal Maroni in front of Two-Face". Ok, time to watch the video, it's been so long, I wanna savor it.
I don’t think it’s terrible, but I was very underwhelmed by it when I read the long Halloween, I found it to be mediocre. I think the movies this story inspired are much better than the story itself, the dark knight and the Batman Another hot take: I think all star superman sucks, I think the story is stupid, too stupid, and I really dislike the way the characters are drawn, everyone in that book, including the adults, looks like they have the face of a newborn baby
Hard agree with mr rogues here. I feel like since this is recommended to so many people as an intro, it's reputation comes from people who haven't read much good Batman. Upon my first read i thought it was great, but upon a reread, after binging knightfall/contagion, as well as a number of other Batman classics, it seemed so shallow in comparison
It's the art, Time Sales is why this story is so popular because it is so good and does the lifting, all of it. If anything other artist was chosen it would had fallen into obscurity.
I can agree to that. Part 3, The Last Halloween, will have other artists for obvious reasons. I wonder how that will reflect on readers’ reviews of the story as a whole.
Hearing you, of all people, calling out this story, is most satisfying. Each time I hear people talk of The Long Halloween, it's always like... you know when there's a work universally praised as awesome or excellent when it's really just simply good or average or deeply flawed or even outright bad, and it's clearly not a vocal minority doing that, and you start questioning yourself whether you're living in a kind of Mandela effect dimension? That's exactly the feeling. Like, don't get me wrong. I can see the charm behind it. I can see why some people would enjoy it. I can see which parts are to be commended in general. But good to the point that most of the fandom puts it into the Batman comic book pantheon, as opposed to just a niche, remarkable comic book? There is no way. Also, I'm gonna throw it out here: people go _way too soft_ on the final twist reveal that Gilda was the holiday killer; they always bring out the most outlandish excuses and explanations, when the truth is just that it has zero set up, zero sense character-wise, and zero sense plot-wise, as if it was just a twist ending for the sake of it. The reason being, there's no "as if". That's exactly what it is. Loeb himself admitted that he had no plan for the mystery and just figured it out as he was writing it.
Finally someone has said it. I've never loved this text and every time a hack filmmaker cites it as their main inspiration I roll my eyes knowing that the next ten years will be the same insecure gen-x garbage.
The repetitive narration is the weirdest part. Every time Falcone or Mad Hatter or Scarecrow get introduced, Loeb reuses the exact same line. Every. Single. Time.
being a bat-cash cow fan for 50+yrs, the older i get, the more i love the stories of the character he was plagiarized from (Bill Finger's words, not mine), The Shadow.
I also was disappointed by the book, for the first half I was actually engaged and gave a lot of benefit of doubt but at the end I was shocked how dumb it got and how it made Heavy Rain writing decisions feel more sensible. If this Batman's best detective story, damn, bar is low.
Falcone is the lamest Batman villain and yet DC/Warner Bros keeps on giving him an important role in every modern Batman media just because of this freaking comic...
Hundred percent disagree. The art is part of why the story is so memorable. I think I can see your perspective but I love the art. I think a good compromise would've been to keep the normal characters in a normal style and the eccentric characters in tim sale's style. I get why you don't like it but Tim sale made memorable designs for joker, penguin, hatter, scarecrow, poison ivy and two face. Arguably the best. Only one I feel doesn't fit the story is catwoman. Maybe in another story but very jarring and ugly design.
When you see how much Jeph Loeb destroyed the ultimate universe with Ultimatum (almost seems mean-spirited), I'm not surprised the Long Hallowen ends up being overrated. Never really liked it.
@@VogtTD Sure that can happen. But the long Halloween is overrated, Ultimatum was a travesty... What did Jeph Loeb write that was good? Not being facetious.
Dude it's so awesome having you back That's so freaking cool, my main man! I didn't even realize you made a few vids last month, when I watched this one I figured it was your first in a year! Say, I've got just two questions for you after watching this vid: 1. Have you ever seen the two-part movie? I haven't read the comic, but I have watched the movie, and enjoyed it a whole lot. I'd be so happy to hear your thoughts on it and the changes it made to the story/characters/mystery. 2. Ever read Batman: Year 2? I'd also like to hear your thoughts on that comic, and if you think it's better or worse than Long Halloween.
I mean... The Long Halloween already _isn't_ the most popular Batman story. That title goes to The Killing Joke, and after that Death In The Family+Under The Red Hood. And while Knightfall isn't as popular as any of the former, it's got the single most popular scene in all of the Batman Mythos right after Jason Todd's death... TLH cannot claim any such moment of such popularity. What TLH is is the most popular _Two-Face_ story... and that's just because it got lucky enough to get viral (as "luck" is the reason behind most of the popular stories' popularity, even the good ones). Case in point, there is not a single other Two-Face story that the Batman fandom can universally bring up besides TLH: it just happened to become the poster-child of a "Two-Face origin story", most people don't even know that it's not the first retelling of it.
Not to mention the title is misleading. I thought this was a mystery during the Halloween season. Instead, it's all about holidays like Christmas, Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Easter Day, you name it.
I just watched a video in which the comment section revolved around people not understanding why the Waynes didn’t have bodyguards. As if the writers had to come up with a realistic and detailed notion of how a rich couple could’ve been killed in an alley. Bottom line: Anyone can find flaws or complain about anything. So no comic book is as good or as bad as people say because there is no consensus to begin with. But as far as I’m concerned we’ll always have Gotham Central, Batman D.O.A., Batman Ego, Mistress of Fear, Birth of the Demon, Going Sane, Crime and Punishment, Pain and Prejudice and countless others as genuine masterpieces.
I've always thought this story was overrated. If it weren't for Tim Sale's art, it would just be another bad Batman story. On the plus side, I like the idea of a transition of power in Gotham's underworld, but someone needs to create another story about that transition ASAP so Loeb's can be retired.
That transition of power in the criminal element was always a concept that fascinated me since I first read about it being central to The Long Halloween as it's not an idea I ever thought about (why Batman's early career stories are filled with mobsters that seem to disappear later in favor of costumed "freaks) and it instantly added so much depth to the Batman mythos for me. Based on what I read & heard about the comic & watched in the animated movie(s) though, I feel parts of that could've been handled better. For one, I don't think the story should've necessarily marked the full introduction of his rogues all costumed up in their classic forms, rather I think it would've been better if, as Rogues said, it mainly factored a few (still in their proto-forms like in The Batman) who make an unhinged contrast between the mob & these new criminals. As for the rest who do appear but won't be central to the plot, they'd be still their pre-villain identities but still contribute to the plot in minor ways.
@@themadtitan7603 I think Harvey Dent's transformation alone, with him killing Falcone, would be enough to show the transition of power in the underworld (there was no need for the other villains to appear, except as small cameos throughout the issues, antagonizing the criminals, creating the rift between the two groups). Have you read Two-Face: Year One? The first part is the Long Halloween from Harvey's point of view, and for me it worked better than the original work (however, the second part is horrible).
@@jeangomes2900 No, I've been hearing about that book relatively recently & it's been on my radar so to speak. As for your idea, anything that's more minimal than the "full" classic rogues gallery in a splash-page for a big punch-up finale would be preferable to me. I just think it could potentially emphasize that idea & Dent's fall more if he stormed Carmine's penthouse with at least one or two of the criminal freaks that he would've helped put behind bars as a DA & will one day overrun Gotham; just in their proto-forms. I wasn't thinking to have it be the same but with the villains not being fully formed yet, just to be clear.
@@jeangomes2900 On another note related to Two Face rolling up to Falcone with the villains, I think an interesting idea that could be attributed to that is the idea of them being the outcasts & down-trodden of society that Harvey not only previously helped put away, but looked at as just a new breed of scum. And after the interaction with Grundy (Croc in how I envision it) he begins seeing them in a different light, as broken & scarred people spit out by the powerful in control of the city like the Falcones, & so he leads them in an almost revolution against them. So another reason I'd like to retain some villains in the other story besides Two Face.
@@themadtitan7603 I don't know if I liked this idea of Two-Face seeing criminals in a more condescending light. Anyway, I'm not against two other villains alongside Two-Face. One villain that I think could have been important would have been a Penguin, who is a classic mobster, but who has the advantage (and therefore managed to prosper) of accepting/knowing how to work with Gotham's new criminal class (the lunatics). I was trying to write an alternative novel of the Long Halloween, in which the Penguin worked for the Falcones (this was also established by Tom King in the modern phase of DC) and orchestrated a plot to take power from the Falcones. Holiday would be the Calendar Man (hence a reason for commemorative dates) who was hired by the Penguin to kill the criminals. Eventually, Batman would arrest the Calendar Man, who would be killed in a witness elimination, and we would have the plot-twister, with Oswald revealing himself as the real villain. The rest would be the same: still the distrust over Dent (who would be completely innocent, him being guilty before becoming Two-Face lessened his tragedy, in my opinion), which would lead him to his tragic transformation and the murder of Carmine. Penguin would have opened the door for Two-Face to go and do his job.
Loeb does so much insufferable internal dialogue texts. It's such an overused crutch. Unfortunately skipping those boxes and just reading the dialogue isn't much more interesting. Now, what's your thoughts about the Penguin show??
I know you might never get around to it but I would genuinely absolutely love to see your take on City of Bane, it's another big shot story that made me really appreciate Bane the way Knightfall did, big cast interesting new take and I think you'd find it interesting
Plz Do Episodes Of Forgotten Supervillains For The Following Comic Book Villains 1)Nocturna 2)Gearhead 3)Spellbinder 4)Doctor Phosphorus 5)William Burnside 6)Sylvester Shyster 7)Riot (DC) 8)Egg Fu 9)Swarm 10)John D Rockerduck 11)She-Spawn 12)Weasel 13)Javelin 14)Blackguard 15)Slipknot 16)Rainbow Raider 17)Queen Of Fables 18)Diablo (Marvel) 19)Firebug 20)Hellgramite
Rogues is not back permanently. He will only do videos when he feels like it before going back on haitus. Plus, he’s a married man and that’s more important to him than content creation.
I haven't read the comic, but the film does rectify things, giving Catwoman a bit more purpose (Calendar man's still random), with Gilda being the true killer, which I like. I don't like the ending (why does Batman let her off), and Gilda's psycho side should have been shown, with an explanantion as to how she can take down a ton of high ranked mobsters, to truly justify it. Falcone still didn't do anything apart from berating his son, we're told, not shown, he's a mob boss. Joker's scenes could have been cut. Overall it still seems better.
I must confess, when I picked this up based on the hype, I was puzzled. I hated the pacing of the book. The animated movie actually cleared up alot of the plot points for me.
I think Long Halloween was meant to be ambiguous. Like Batman Hush. You never really find out who it was, or at least the comic doesn't give you a clear answer. I do agree it is a bit overrated though.
I'm not disagreeing with you. For me, Eye Of The Beholder will always be the definitive Two-Face origin. But I thought in the Long Halloween the original Holiday Killer was Alberto, and Gilda only thought it was Harvey. She wanted to help so she became the Holiday Killer. Then when Two-Face figured out it was Gilda, he became Holiday just to throw Bats and Gordon off Gilda's trail. It has been a long time since I read it, so I could be misremembering.
The greatest moment in this comic is Batman leaving a plate for Grundy on Thanksgiving. Compassion should always be a core element of Batman's character. Batman should care about his villains and try to help them instead of beating them to a pulp. Modern Batman just doesn't hit as much as Classic Batman.
While I enjoy the story I can agree with you on some of these points there is one more gripe I have to with it and that is for a two face origin story it really doesn't dive into harveys core characteristics very much it's so focused on the mob and not the freaks that are supposed to be taking over the lime light
Alberto motive makes sense if you stop and put yourself in his shoes. His dad neglected him for years, everyone in his family look down on him and ignore him. Alberto became do obsessed with getting recognition that he became a twisted monster just like the other Gotham rogues. Dude any gun can be very dangerous. I've always seen Carmine as more complex not pure evil. He is no saint but he is corrupt. You think long halloween but honestly I think the Nolan trilogy is overrated and frankly I hate how influential it has become on batman media. I will agree that eye of the beholder is better. Honestly Rogue this video just devolved into you ranting about how much you hate Long Halloween and makes you sound bitter. It is nice to hear your voice again but dude you need to chill on the criticism Way too harsh.
I agree with you on the motivation parts but the rest of his criticisms are rock solid. I like the story, too, but that doesn't mean that we should throw up a wall and muffle out all criticism on it. As for the gun thing, obviously any gun can be dangerous, but you don't seem to get his point. If all you're packing is a cheap .22 caliber pistol and you open fire on a group of armed killers (or just armed normal dudes, in general), unless Deadshot or John Marston is the one holding that thing, then you're not going to kill everybody. It's simply not happening, there's not enough rounds or time or stopping power. If you ever had any experience with the mechanics of firearms then you would realize how silly it is to refute the point about Holiday's weapon being a ridiculous decision.
@AAllen-br8it I was just sharing my bloody opinion no need to get condescending with me! And I was not saying he should not complain but he just sounded bitter or did you not notice over the bloody ranting!?
I’d say Dark Moon Rising (monster men and mad monk) followed by the man who laughs, eye of the beholder and four of a kind are the best follow ups to year one
Sal, I've been saying this for YEARS! The Long Halloween just sucks. But it's the only Batman story that casual fans can cite as a mystery story (even though there are tons of Batman mystery stories out there)!. I hate Loeb, he sucks!
Gilda was the Holiday killer all along cause she wanted to protect her husband nad have be part of her life. Harvey took the fault cause he wanted to protect her, and Alberto took the credit to prove he was worthy of the Family name.
There, you all understand now?
As a long time Batman fan, I think the Long Halloween is a good story, flaws and all.
The ending isn't as confusing as some people would have you think. There was only one Holiday killer and it was Gilda.
Alberto's "confession" was a lie, he was trying to show daddy Carmine that he was worthy of being part of the family business. Two Face confessed because he wanted to protect Gilda.
I thought Gilda did the first 3 (somehow) and then Harvey figured it out and tried to do the 4th one but failed (Alberto escaped, somehow). Then Alberto took over which is why Holiday started attacking the other crime families, whereas previously he only attacked the Falcones.
I don't know why Gilda didn't do the 4th one (New Year's day) but she clearly thought Harvey did this one, so she couldn't have been behind it.
@uanime1 I thought that too for awhile, but Jeph Loeb has pretty much said there was only one killer and in Batman The Last Halloween, he said the true identity of Holiday will be revealed. All I'm going to say is, after reading the first two issues, it doesn't look good for Gilda.
See? Even decades later people can't agree on what the ending was conveying. The Long Halloween is a mess.
@@thibaldus3I think that’s exactly why people feel so divided about this story: Some think it’s terrible because they struggle figuring out who Holiday is and others have fun trying to figure out Holiday’s identity.
All hinges on the fact that the answer is not delivered to us.
@@thibaldus3 The answers being unclear is part of the story's appeal in my opinion. It really makes you think and want to go back to see if the pieces fit together.
The reason why they keep repeating who Carmine falcone is to introduce him to people who didn't read the previous issue
i feel this way about batman hush, i think the art is great but the story is not great,and hush kinda sucks.
Same here, except for the fact that Paul Dini turned me into a Hush fanboy thanks to his *"Heart of Hush"* , followed by *"Hush Money"* & *"House of Hush"* ...
Scott Snyder's *"Gates of Gotham"* was another pretty damn good Hush story.
To go back to the very first *"Hush"* by Jeph Loeb, IMHO it has some merit as a book to give to a friend who wants to get into Batman seriously, and doesn't know what comic book to read first.
"Hush" introduces a bunch of characters, allies & enemies, and Jim Lee's drawings are wonderful.
Sure, nowadays the mystery isn't that hard to figure out, even though at the time lots of people had their money on Jason Todd, but for an intro into the Batverse, you could do worse.
Unpopular opinion: The DCAMU "Hush" wasn't _that_ bad, flipping the script on its head was a good idea IMO, people would have complained anyway if Tommy was the villain, so why not have the mastermind of the original story also be the muscle?
Sure it wasn't _great_ , and I'd put it in the bottom half of the DCAMU, but I don't seem to hate it with the same passion as most people did when it came out.
@@randallflagg3700I agree with pretty much everything you said except the part about the Hush movie.
Spoilers for Hush (the movie):
To me the movie took away from the character of Tommy Elliot to unnecessarily add something to the Riddler whom already had a very important role in the story.
In fact, in the movie Riddler is treated as a Joke even more after being revealed as the mastermind, while in the original story he was treated seriously once he was revealed as the one pulling the strings.
To each their own, of course. Personally, I don’t really like changes only for shock value or in order to surprise the audience.
The Long Halloween movie did something similar and I could tell what the twists were going to even before watching part 2.
I was going to say. The Long Halloween is great, it's HUSH that doesn't deserve the kudos.
I actually preferred the Hush movie to the comic. It was too clear that Tommy was the villain in the comic. Saw it coming from a mile away.
very true
I understand everyone is allowed to have an opinion
Tell that to Mr Rogues
And some opinions can be wrong, but others can be right...
I didn't get why rubber baby bottle nipples were perfect gun silencers.
Because Gilda wants a baby
I Don't Know
I supose is a nod to that
Based Mr Rogues
Eye of the Beholder will forever be the best Two Face Origin. Tim Sale’s art good tho
With this and Hush actually sucking, I wonder how many of these supposed "pedestal Batman stories" actually aren't as good as we think they are...
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 most aren't great other than year one
@@poopooman-q7rEven that one isn't a Batman story. It's a Jim Gordon story.
@@poopooman-q7r "The Killing Joke" actually deserves the praise it gets, and even more. I honestly don't believe anyone has ever come near to nailing Batman as well as Moore did, not to mention how he succeeded in making a story revolving around the Joker's past without ruining the character; it was handled perfectly. Knightfall is another title that's as good as its fame suggests, or at least about as much.
Among the bad "famous" Batman stories (by which "bad", I merely mean "not as good as people make them out to be", basically not worth the status they gained) I'd put "The Long Halloween" (plus sequels), "Hush", and "The Dark Knight Returns". I still have to pick up the No Man Land's saga, so I can't give my thoughts on that.
The truth is, most of Batman's "best stories" are just issues within the long-running series rather than self-confined titles, so... you really won't hear people mentioning them because they don't reach the "general public" as easily, and, as a result, people who get into the comics never pick them up.
@@drakegrandx5914 i totally agree with you on the killing joke but i dont hold knightfall in as much of a high regard
It’s great to hear from you again. Happy Halloween.
Completely agree with all of your points. Always thought The Long Halloween was overrated.
I wouldn't go so far to say it sucks, but I think making Harvey Dent a bad guy before his disfigurement kind of cheapens the impact of his fall from grace.
Like the tragedy of Two-Face to me is a man who was handed a pretty shitty hand growing up desperately trying to be better and not give into his worst tendencies FAILING to do so and becoming a criminal, but still it's not completely a part of Harvey Dent survives in Two-Face.
It’s been such a long time since I read this
I actually had it but I gave it away when I moved
I always had mixed feelings: Dents background is a hit or miss. This case is kind of a double edged sword(or appropriately enough a coin toss)
In this case you could say dents double life as the district attorney with a secret dark background is personified by the disfigurement
But you’re right: the impact of the disfigurement usually stems from Dents normally cleaner persona and i think the best interpretations usually involve his sense of reality being warped with said disfigurement
I'd say Harvey was always going lose self control at some point, disfigurement or not. The cracks in his mind and personality appeared before the acid showed who he really is underneath.
He doesn't start the story a villan but the threads are there.
It just makes you question your own morality and lets you decide how far Harvey had to fall to become Two-Face. And with his complete fall from grace being an effect of his own wife, it truly is a spectacular tragedy. He wasn't a saint. But he wasn't sqeeky clean. That's why he worked so well with Batman and Jim Gordon. They all bend the rules. Only, Harvey would snap and decide to break them instead.
And I think making Harv a good person who suddenly goes crazy because he got burned is cheap writing.
@@VogtTD exactly.
@@VogtTDThat's why I didn't like Dark Knight's Two-Face.
'why does batman want the mobsters to be saved. The killer is helping him' bro doesn't get the point
Why don’t you explain it?
Nice to see you back, Rogues! Thanks for the video!
This isn’t a hot take, it’s a nuclear take
You can just say "bad". We all have them sometimes
its true. compared to other dc or btman graphic novels its not that great.
@hottakestuesdays7450 you can't just say that. You have to give examples
@@MattAlbienah Mr rogues is right. It’s a badly written story. 99% of comic books have terrible storytelling that is why I cannot get into comics
well, it shouldn't be. jeph loeb is much better with presentation than final results.
So Rogue, what's your thoughts on the new game, Batman: Arkham Shadow?
God forbid a Batman story focus on one villian instead of squeezing in twenty like a damn Lego game
I have to agree with a lot of this. I think that if I hadn't read so many of your excellent recommendations first, I would've enjoyed this. Having read material that was so much better, I was pretty underwhelmed. I do like some of the major batman stories but the real hidden gems are the more obscure stories.
Damn I made comic dubs on half these issues. The repetitive intro cards did bug the shit out of me
Long Halloween is only good for newbies. When i first got into comics i was hyped with everything i read and i used to have the "correct opinions" that the fanbase had. But then i became an adult and i realised that most of the fanbase doesn't even read comics (or at least have read only the mainstream ones) and actually shapes its opinion on top ten lists videos on TH-cam that have no originality.
Dude does the concept of opinions allude you? Who are you to judge people 4 liking something you and Rogues hate with a passion?
@@tayojones9460 it's just an objective observation. Fanboys get hyped with cheap and mediocre products. I know. I've been there. Most fanboys are just consumers. You cannot deny it. It's a fact. Quality is not good. Art, like beauty and morality, isn't subjective. You can enjoy mediocre cheap stuff from time to time. I do it too. But becoming a fanboy that bases his opinions solely on what the others like and spending all that unnecessary money is pathetic. That's why i judge it. If you cannot understand this simple fact, then don't even bother responding.
Edit: and i dont hate that story. I just don't like fanboys praising it like it's the best batman story ever.
@@jhngrg8132 I dunno hoss if a majority folks love it then maybe it's just good enough and honestly it's about time someone says it comics books aren't good quality for stories, they are schlocky, corny and at times hamfisted. Long Halloween is like every other Batman story in that regard it's not really much of a difference.
@@kwayneboy1524 I'm sorry but you're missing apples for oranges. A comic book having plot holes and bad writing is not the same as a comic book including/omitting certain elements because the media/editors require it. There's difference between pulling out "Somehow Joker returns" because you need him for the plot even though he got killed in a previous story, and you don't have the time to properly set up a fleshed out explanation for his reappearance, and pulling out "Somehow Joker returns" after he got killed in _your own_ story just because you want some cheap plot twist.
Mr Rogues keeps dying and then came back to life.
Also, thank you for highlighting the weird mystery. I never understood it, especially Gilda's involvement. The ending was just so weird.
As interpreted by me
The joke is that there is only one killer, which is Gilda.
Harvey says he is the Holiday killer because he killed Falcone, who was the main mobster, and because he has gone crazy.
And Alberto, in an attempt to get his father's attention, kills Maroni and proclaims himself the Holiday killer.
The attempt on Alberto’s life in this case would be Alberto faking his own death to steal Holiday’s thunder, right?
Gilda pretty much tells us it wasn’t her and I can’t see Harvey getting on that ship without being recognized by anyone either as Holiday or the D.A.
@@Victor-qx3vx Do you want me to tell you the truth?
I never understood that part
Whose corpse did Falcone see?
XD
I've always thought that Gilda tried to kill Alberto, he survives, and hides until he kills Maroni.
There is another option that there were really two assassins, Gilda and Harvey, because of one of the conversations Batman has with the Calendar Man.
Although everything is very ambiguous
And Alberto may have killed the examining magistrate, although it is also justifiable that he did not.
I think the Alberto thing is the weirdest thing in the comic xD
Carmine probably buried an empty casket. There is no body if they assume Alberto was shot and fell from the ship.
Then again… Batman mentions it that Alberto would’ve killed the examine magistrate for him knowing “the wrong corpse was in Alberto’s tomb” or something along these lines.
So.. yeah, whose body was buried after Alberto’s supposedly died?
@@Victor-qx3vx is te magical corpse
XD
Some guy dies and nobody cares, except Falcone who thinks is Alberto
But is not Alberto
Batman, Hello? Do Something!
XD
Who knows
Somebody die in Gotham , the usual I supose
XD
I remember before I read it, I thought it was actualy gonna be a Scarecrow story.
Why? Genuinely curious.
@@themadtitan7603I can’t speak for him, but it could be due to being a Halloween story and Scarecrow being the villain who enjoys inflicting terror the most.
@@Victor-qx3vx Exactly for that reason. Thanks
@@Victor-qx3vx That makes sense to me.
@@michaelstar7556 I see
I felt like the the 2 part animated version actually improved on the story, holes and clarity.
I mean catwoman was impactful to the story and secret was there, Falcone shown to do evil acts, there was only one killer with more strength motive
@Mr.Rogues: Thank you for this video! You were missed!
Gatting polemical now, are we?
With this and Hush actually sucking, I winder how many of these supposed "pedestal Batman stories" actually aren't as good as we think they are...
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 Next video will be “Batman Year One actually sucks”
@Ricvictors
Nah, all the stories he harps on seem to be later in Batman's life and I don't think he'd go _that_ far. Budum, Tsss!
@@Ricvictors Year One is actually good tho
"By issue 5 I already know who Carmine Falcone is"
Yeah, but someone who saw issue 5 on the newstands when it came out and hadn’t read the other issues first wouldn’t.
Yeah. When I was a kid I remember buying issue 3 first (because it was the one available at the store) and those repetitions helped me understand who the characters I didn’t know were.
FINALLY. Someone else has noticed how annoying the repetitive phrases are. Thank you.
I’ve never understood how some of rogues are supposed to be different from the mobsters. The mobsters want money. So do the supervillains. Ivy has powers, but she still seems to just want money. Doesn’t seem all that outlandish of a criminal to me. Mad Hatter, at least here, is just a guy with a gun who quotes children’s books. He seems odd, but he also seems to want money. Same with Scarecrow. Half of these people are just thugs in colorful costumes.
Also, Penguin pops up in the finale. He isn’t in the story beforehand. I speculate that Loeb forgot to use him or couldn’t find a way to incorporate him into the story, but felt he couldn’t leave him out, so just threw him in there. I feel that Penguin, as an eccentric and gadget-using master thief, is both realistic and outlandish enough to fit this story’s tone.
In my view, Grundy is the only rogue that works all that well, because Loeb was able to thematically tie him to Two-Face’e arc. And I don’t think he should be a Batman villain, so that should tell you something if he’s the one I think works best.
I like the way Joker’s personality is written, his terrible jokes and dialogue suit the character, but his motivations don’t make sense to me. He wants to kill Holiday because… there isn’t room for two homicidal maniacs in Gotham. But by that logic, he should go after all the other villains.
Tim Sale’s art is superb, though. I think we all agree.
Minor correction. The connection between Catwoman and Falcone was revealed in Dark Victory, but wasn’t fleshed out until When In Rome. So Loeb probably had the idea from about the start, but he took forever to really explore it.
I like Gordon in this story. He’s not focused on much, but he feels like a grounded, human element in the midst of all the plot holes.
I think like Batman could have had a better role in this story. There are interesting bits, like Falcone’s attempted corporate takeover, his romance with Catwoman, his father’s relationship to Falcone, but none of them are fully explored.
To sum up, Dark Victory is better. Two-Face beats up the Joker in that one. A refreshing change of pace.
I always thought it's odd that Grundy was in this story & I feel a villain like Croc might've made more sense in his place as a firmly established, sympathetic, monstrous rouge in Batman's gallery that dwells in the sewers.
@@themadtitan7603yeah, I was actually thinking that. In fact, I think it makes more sense, and gives the chance to see the more sympathetic side of Croc that we don’t usually get. Although, how would a conversation between him and Two-Face go?
@@mikephelps9238 May you elaborate on your question at the end. I'm sorry if it's a simple one but I'm just not sure what exactly you mean by it.
@ in the film and book, Two Face interacted with Grundy during Labor Day, and it had this symbolism of rebirth. I’m just wondering that if Croc were to take Grundy’s place, how would the interaction be different?
@@mikephelps9238 I see. I was thinking it might've been about the symbolic element & I feel I have very little idea on how they'd approach incorporating him in that role regarding his connection with Harvey. One I had would be for Croc to be more recurring early on as a recluse from society out of fear & shame for his appearance & later through his interaction with Harvey, he embraces his appearance as the former embraces his while they stand by side by side with other freaks who's lives have also been ruined or worsened by those who held the power. I envision this Croc having been used as a henchmen by the Falcone's in the past but was usually mistreated by them.
I'd be interested in hearing your ideas or anyone else's.
I never got why Loeb had Riddler talk exclusively in riddles and had Scarecrow quote nursery rhymes. Yes Nygma's obsessed with riddles but he doesn't only speak in them.
That’s something that bothers me about his Scarecrow as well.
I miss the speeches and sadistic glee caused by his so called research.
TLH’s Scarecrow seems like someone who’s completely crazy to the point of being incomprehensible and that’s a shame.
@@Victor-qx3vx I feel like even though he had Crane and Tetch team up he confused the two of them because it's Hatter who quotes nursery rhymes not Scarecrow.
@@Xehanort10I’ll say this though: He made me wish to see Scarecrow and Hatter team up more often.
Yes, finally somebody else with the guts to say it! I like Tim Sales' art, but Jeph Loeb is easily one of, if not THE MOST, underrated Batman writers. In my opinion. His stories seem to rely on attempted atmosphere, character inundation and nonsensical but dramatic twists to get by. Such a shame it distracted from other better writers from the time, like Dixon or Grant.
An upload from Mr. Rogues, and it's not a former patreon exclusive video? Today is a good day. The Long Halloween is like Loeb's other famous year-long Batman story - Hush. Both are more style over substance (the art is superb) and are better for newer fans rather than long-time fans. They are what you get from the clickbait top 10 lists that most new fans will come across. I liked both when I was new to reading comics, but upon a more recent read through, I found it to be not as good as I first thought and kind of a chore when you think about the plots. Paying homage with this story comes across as taking pages from the Tarantino playbook of writing, but more on the nose. I'll always enjoy rereading Year One and The Dark Knight Returns more than this, but what I've learned reading comics over the years is the best stories aren't the big spectacle books written for the trade that get all the attention, it's the single issues that tell you something about the characters one piece at a time.
Great video. Most of the Batman storyarcs that DC markets as the 'best" are actually mediocre and/or not representative of him, his supporting cast and rogues (look at how TLH treats Mad Hatter and Scarecrow.) The best Batman comics are usually by the people who had long runs, like Gerry Conway, Doug Monech, Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Devin Grayson, Grant Morrison and Paul Dini. But people aren't willing to wade through huge stacks of individual comics that sometimes have varying art styles.
Case in point: I recommended JM DeMatteis' 'Going Sane' as the best Joker story, but the person refused to read it because they thought Joe Staton's art was "horrible" (i.e., not as flashy as Sale's or Lee's.)
This used to be one of my favorite comics, but upon a recent reread I found myself struggling to get through it. I think TLH is a really great one time experience, especially if you’re new to comics or younger. Repeat readings just bring out the flaws, if you made this video a year ago I would have disagreed.
Now…I have all the same issues.
What do you think of the Long Halloween movie?
I don't like gilda being holiday. It makes no sense she can take down several mobsters.
People talk about how this story did loads for calendar man but I disagree.. making a new villain that just copies calendar man’s whole gimmick and having calendar man himself just be a bald guy who consults useless info on it is lame as fuck. They should of just made it a calendar man story through and through
I haven't read the comic but reading more about it through discourse & watching the animated film(s) surprised me how small & non-impactful his role here in the story is given the hype I've read about it for years.
They depict him in a Hannibal Lecter-like role & as a serial killer villain who Batman already captured so he consults him on the Holiday case, but he offers next to nothing of significance in that department; even Batman in the film says it's a waste of time. From what I've seen, I think I prefer the Arkham City version which is based on The Long Halloween version as he comes off more intimating & interesting even with his limited presence through his stories & ominous disappearance.
And as you said, I feel I always I thought on some level, why is Calendar Man not the killer or at least heavily involved in the murders given Holiday is using his gimmick. That could've been a way to actually elevate his character by making him at the heart of mystery graphic novel set in a seminal moment of Batman's career.
Eh I think that's too basic I think the idea of him having his gimmick stolen is more interesting as?it actually effects him as time goes on
@@kwayneboy1524 I think if they had done the same concept on a more established villain it would of worked better cause we would of seen plenty of stories with that villain already, so approaching them in the new angle of dealing with a copy cat is interesting. However when you do it to a character that literally has never got to have a good story before it just feels like a waste
@@kwayneboy1524 As the OP replied to you, I think it'd work with Calendar Man because he's a lower-tier villain who might've had even less exposure back then he does now & it'd be a darkly different take to audiences back then. I do wonder if readers back then would've guessed the twist though given the Holiday reveal.
@@celtic19 perhaps but I'm not much of a Calendar Man fan and I kinda would find that too predictable for my liking.
I sense what is next, Top 5 Best Solomon Grundy Stories
Yeah I started noticing that in the animated movie, I really don’t get this Holiday killings anyway but who does Loeb think he is, M Night?!
I never get why Penguin is in this as he only appears in the final battle and wasn’t in the previous chapters?
I think Loeb must have something against the character because he’s the one of first villains to be arrested in dark victory and he barely has anything to say and he doesn’t even appear in Hush
I've read that apparently he was figuring it out as he goes & also wanted it to be open-ended (which seems like a recipe for a potentially confusing story) unlike Dark Victory where he had it all planned out from the start, or at least early on.
Which some say is why the latter made for a better mystery & story.
The only problem I have with The Long Halloween is how Jeff Loeb tries to be the Mario Puzo of comic writers by referencing The Godfather.
Ok, first thing first, welcome back Mr Rogues \o/ second, I havent watched the video yet, but I agree with the title, "The Long Halloween" not really being that good has always been one of my shameful Batman takes that I keep in my closet.
For what it's worth, I believe that the Tomorrowverse adaptation actually improved on the story, except for the obvious plothole of "there is absolutely no way that Gilda was that big dude on the boat who shot Alberto, and later shot Sal Maroni in front of Two-Face".
Ok, time to watch the video, it's been so long, I wanna savor it.
I don’t think it’s terrible, but I was very underwhelmed by it when I read the long Halloween, I found it to be mediocre. I think the movies this story inspired are much better than the story itself, the dark knight and the Batman
Another hot take: I think all star superman sucks, I think the story is stupid, too stupid, and I really dislike the way the characters are drawn, everyone in that book, including the adults, looks like they have the face of a newborn baby
Okay well i actually enjoyed All star Batman and Robin. Not saying Frank got Batman's character right, but it was a DAMN ENTERTAINING READ!!!!!
Hard agree with mr rogues here. I feel like since this is recommended to so many people as an intro, it's reputation comes from people who haven't read much good Batman. Upon my first read i thought it was great, but upon a reread, after binging knightfall/contagion, as well as a number of other Batman classics, it seemed so shallow in comparison
It's the art, Time Sales is why this story is so popular because it is so good and does the lifting, all of it.
If anything other artist was chosen it would had fallen into obscurity.
I can agree to that.
Part 3, The Last Halloween, will have other artists for obvious reasons. I wonder how that will reflect on readers’ reviews of the story as a whole.
@@Victor-qx3vx starts of well so far
@@kwayneboy1524That’s good to hear.
I’ll keep an eye on reviews while it doesn’t get to my country.
@@Victor-qx3vx okay
Hearing you, of all people, calling out this story, is most satisfying. Each time I hear people talk of The Long Halloween, it's always like... you know when there's a work universally praised as awesome or excellent when it's really just simply good or average or deeply flawed or even outright bad, and it's clearly not a vocal minority doing that, and you start questioning yourself whether you're living in a kind of Mandela effect dimension? That's exactly the feeling.
Like, don't get me wrong. I can see the charm behind it. I can see why some people would enjoy it. I can see which parts are to be commended in general. But good to the point that most of the fandom puts it into the Batman comic book pantheon, as opposed to just a niche, remarkable comic book? There is no way.
Also, I'm gonna throw it out here: people go _way too soft_ on the final twist reveal that Gilda was the holiday killer; they always bring out the most outlandish excuses and explanations, when the truth is just that it has zero set up, zero sense character-wise, and zero sense plot-wise, as if it was just a twist ending for the sake of it. The reason being, there's no "as if". That's exactly what it is. Loeb himself admitted that he had no plan for the mystery and just figured it out as he was writing it.
Finally someone has said it. I've never loved this text and every time a hack filmmaker cites it as their main inspiration I roll my eyes knowing that the next ten years will be the same insecure gen-x garbage.
The repetitive narration is the weirdest part. Every time Falcone or Mad Hatter or Scarecrow get introduced, Loeb reuses the exact same line. Every. Single. Time.
It's for a reader who just picked up the book and hasn't read the previous issues.
What do you think of the movies? I think they made some good changes to the original comic for the better
I forgot about how repetitive the dialogue in this story was, but yeah, that's a major sign of lazy writing.
being a bat-cash cow fan for 50+yrs, the older i get, the more i love the stories of the character he was plagiarized from (Bill Finger's words, not mine), The Shadow.
What are your thoughts on batman dark victory.
Mr. Rogues can you do top 5 best Mandarin Stories
I always thought Dark victory was the better story of the two
The Catwoman mystery is explained in the sequel "Batman: Dark Victory".
I'm very excited that a big time TH-camrs agrees with my opinion. This now of course validates my opinion. Thank you Rouges.
You captured my exact thoughts on this comic perfectly!!
Mr rogues what did you think of the animated long Halloween movies?
I also was disappointed by the book, for the first half I was actually engaged and gave a lot of benefit of doubt but at the end I was shocked how dumb it got and how it made Heavy Rain writing decisions feel more sensible. If this Batman's best detective story, damn, bar is low.
Thank you! I know you'll probably get flack for this video but you're definitely not alone on this one
Falcone is the lamest Batman villain and yet DC/Warner Bros keeps on giving him an important role in every modern Batman media just because of this freaking comic...
Agree. I won't say it sucks, exactly, tho. But to me suuuuuuure is highly overrated. Just a long ass overcomplex plot...
I totally agree. Been sayin it for years. Bad story , bad art.
Hundred percent disagree. The art is part of why the story is so memorable. I think I can see your perspective but I love the art. I think a good compromise would've been to keep the normal characters in a normal style and the eccentric characters in tim sale's style. I get why you don't like it but Tim sale made memorable designs for joker, penguin, hatter, scarecrow, poison ivy and two face. Arguably the best. Only one I feel doesn't fit the story is catwoman. Maybe in another story but very jarring and ugly design.
When you see how much Jeph Loeb destroyed the ultimate universe with Ultimatum (almost seems mean-spirited), I'm not surprised the Long Hallowen ends up being overrated. Never really liked it.
Here’s a novel concept for you. Great writers can also do bad writing.
@@VogtTD Sure that can happen. But the long Halloween is overrated, Ultimatum was a travesty... What did Jeph Loeb write that was good? Not being facetious.
@@thibaldus3Jeph Loeb wrote Superman: For All Seasons, and I thought that comic was amazing
TLHW SUCKS IVE BEEN SAYING IT FOR YEARS NOW
Dude it's so awesome having you back That's so freaking cool, my main man! I didn't even realize you made a few vids last month, when I watched this one I figured it was your first in a year! Say, I've got just two questions for you after watching this vid:
1. Have you ever seen the two-part movie? I haven't read the comic, but I have watched the movie, and enjoyed it a whole lot. I'd be so happy to hear your thoughts on it and the changes it made to the story/characters/mystery.
2. Ever read Batman: Year 2? I'd also like to hear your thoughts on that comic, and if you think it's better or worse than Long Halloween.
Can you make a vid about top 10 best Batman comics plz?
Hot Take:
The animated Long Halloween movies are my FAVORTIE Batman movies
I’d say mine is Mask of the Phantasm.
Guess that makes my take as cold as Mr. freeze.
Another great animated movie is Batman vs. TMNT.
@@monobro141 My favorites are Under the red hood and probably TDKR.
Well well well Mister Rogues, do tell us - if not the Long Halloween, which Batman story deserves to be known as the most popular story?
Thats not the question. He just says this one sucks.
Dr Phosphoruses first appearnce obviously.
The Cult goes so hard and actually is about political aspects of Gotham.
I mean... The Long Halloween already _isn't_ the most popular Batman story. That title goes to The Killing Joke, and after that Death In The Family+Under The Red Hood. And while Knightfall isn't as popular as any of the former, it's got the single most popular scene in all of the Batman Mythos right after Jason Todd's death... TLH cannot claim any such moment of such popularity.
What TLH is is the most popular _Two-Face_ story... and that's just because it got lucky enough to get viral (as "luck" is the reason behind most of the popular stories' popularity, even the good ones). Case in point, there is not a single other Two-Face story that the Batman fandom can universally bring up besides TLH: it just happened to become the poster-child of a "Two-Face origin story", most people don't even know that it's not the first retelling of it.
Yes I never understood the big love for this story either
Not to mention the title is misleading. I thought this was a mystery during the Halloween season. Instead, it's all about holidays like Christmas, Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Easter Day, you name it.
Hay man great to hear you again, nice to have you back
With this and Hush actually sucking, I winder how many of these supposed "pedestal Batman stories" actually aren't as good as we think they are...
I just watched a video in which the comment section revolved around people not understanding why the Waynes didn’t have bodyguards.
As if the writers had to come up with a realistic and detailed notion of how a rich couple could’ve been killed in an alley.
Bottom line: Anyone can find flaws or complain about anything. So no comic book is as good or as bad as people say because there is no consensus to begin with.
But as far as I’m concerned we’ll always have Gotham Central, Batman D.O.A., Batman Ego, Mistress of Fear, Birth of the Demon, Going Sane, Crime and Punishment, Pain and Prejudice and countless others as genuine masterpieces.
I didn't realize you returned. Welcome back!
I've always thought this story was overrated. If it weren't for Tim Sale's art, it would just be another bad Batman story. On the plus side, I like the idea of a transition of power in Gotham's underworld, but someone needs to create another story about that transition ASAP so Loeb's can be retired.
That transition of power in the criminal element was always a concept that fascinated me since I first read about it being central to The Long Halloween as it's not an idea I ever thought about (why Batman's early career stories are filled with mobsters that seem to disappear later in favor of costumed "freaks) and it instantly added so much depth to the Batman mythos for me.
Based on what I read & heard about the comic & watched in the animated movie(s) though, I feel parts of that could've been handled better. For one, I don't think the story should've necessarily marked the full introduction of his rogues all costumed up in their classic forms, rather I think it would've been better if, as Rogues said, it mainly factored a few (still in their proto-forms like in The Batman) who make an unhinged contrast between the mob & these new criminals.
As for the rest who do appear but won't be central to the plot, they'd be still their pre-villain identities but still contribute to the plot in minor ways.
@@themadtitan7603 I think Harvey Dent's transformation alone, with him killing Falcone, would be enough to show the transition of power in the underworld (there was no need for the other villains to appear, except as small cameos throughout the issues, antagonizing the criminals, creating the rift between the two groups).
Have you read Two-Face: Year One? The first part is the Long Halloween from Harvey's point of view, and for me it worked better than the original work (however, the second part is horrible).
@@jeangomes2900 No, I've been hearing about that book relatively recently & it's been on my radar so to speak.
As for your idea, anything that's more minimal than the "full" classic rogues gallery in a splash-page for a big punch-up finale would be preferable to me. I just think it could potentially emphasize that idea & Dent's fall more if he stormed Carmine's penthouse with at least one or two of the criminal freaks that he would've helped put behind bars as a DA & will one day overrun Gotham; just in their proto-forms. I wasn't thinking to have it be the same but with the villains not being fully formed yet, just to be clear.
@@jeangomes2900 On another note related to Two Face rolling up to Falcone with the villains, I think an interesting idea that could be attributed to that is the idea of them being the outcasts & down-trodden of society that Harvey not only previously helped put away, but looked at as just a new breed of scum.
And after the interaction with Grundy (Croc in how I envision it) he begins seeing them in a different light, as broken & scarred people spit out by the powerful in control of the city like the Falcones, & so he leads them in an almost revolution against them.
So another reason I'd like to retain some villains in the other story besides Two Face.
@@themadtitan7603 I don't know if I liked this idea of Two-Face seeing criminals in a more condescending light.
Anyway, I'm not against two other villains alongside Two-Face. One villain that I think could have been important would have been a Penguin, who is a classic mobster, but who has the advantage (and therefore managed to prosper) of accepting/knowing how to work with Gotham's new criminal class (the lunatics).
I was trying to write an alternative novel of the Long Halloween, in which the Penguin worked for the Falcones (this was also established by Tom King in the modern phase of DC) and orchestrated a plot to take power from the Falcones. Holiday would be the Calendar Man (hence a reason for commemorative dates) who was hired by the Penguin to kill the criminals. Eventually, Batman would arrest the Calendar Man, who would be killed in a witness elimination, and we would have the plot-twister, with Oswald revealing himself as the real villain. The rest would be the same: still the distrust over Dent (who would be completely innocent, him being guilty before becoming Two-Face lessened his tragedy, in my opinion), which would lead him to his tragic transformation and the murder of Carmine. Penguin would have opened the door for Two-Face to go and do his job.
You're back!
*Does the Snoopy Happy Dance*
Happy Halloween to you as well!
Loeb does so much insufferable internal dialogue texts. It's such an overused crutch. Unfortunately skipping those boxes and just reading the dialogue isn't much more interesting. Now, what's your thoughts about the Penguin show??
I know you might never get around to it but I would genuinely absolutely love to see your take on City of Bane, it's another big shot story that made me really appreciate Bane the way Knightfall did, big cast interesting new take and I think you'd find it interesting
It’s good to have you back Rouges!
Plz Do Episodes Of Forgotten Supervillains For The Following Comic Book Villains
1)Nocturna
2)Gearhead
3)Spellbinder
4)Doctor Phosphorus
5)William Burnside
6)Sylvester Shyster
7)Riot (DC)
8)Egg Fu
9)Swarm
10)John D Rockerduck
11)She-Spawn
12)Weasel
13)Javelin
14)Blackguard
15)Slipknot
16)Rainbow Raider
17)Queen Of Fables
18)Diablo (Marvel)
19)Firebug
20)Hellgramite
Rogues is not back permanently. He will only do videos when he feels like it before going back on haitus. Plus, he’s a married man and that’s more important to him than content creation.
I haven't read the comic, but the film does rectify things, giving Catwoman a bit more purpose (Calendar man's still random), with Gilda being the true killer, which I like. I don't like the ending (why does Batman let her off), and Gilda's psycho side should have been shown, with an explanantion as to how she can take down a ton of high ranked mobsters, to truly justify it. Falcone still didn't do anything apart from berating his son, we're told, not shown, he's a mob boss. Joker's scenes could have been cut. Overall it still seems better.
Finally someone else agrees
I must confess, when I picked this up based on the hype, I was puzzled. I hated the pacing of the book. The animated movie actually cleared up alot of the plot points for me.
Out of every language you could've spoke, you chose to speak FACTS
5:55 to be fair... Lecter sucked in the movie as well. He just waste time, and the only help he can give is by actually knowing the murderer.
I think Long Halloween was meant to be ambiguous. Like Batman Hush. You never really find out who it was, or at least the comic doesn't give you a clear answer. I do agree it is a bit overrated though.
By the way: A part 3 is being written.
Who knows? Maybe it finally answers some of those questions.
The Long Halloween is enjoyable but it is pretty overrated.
The animated movie wasn't perfect but it was a definite improvement in several aspects.
"Two" things:
1. can you talk about recommended two face stories? Other than the obvious
2. Can you talk about Harvey dent in the new joker movie?
Apologies if you watched it already, but he made a top 22 Two-Face stories video a few years ago that might interest you.
@ appreciate it thank you!
Being honest, it should’ve been left with Alberto!😂
TLH isnt bad, but it definitely isn't a top 10 story
Will you be doing Arkham season 4
I'm not disagreeing with you. For me, Eye Of The Beholder will always be the definitive Two-Face origin. But I thought in the Long Halloween the original Holiday Killer was Alberto, and Gilda only thought it was Harvey. She wanted to help so she became the Holiday Killer. Then when Two-Face figured out it was Gilda, he became Holiday just to throw Bats and Gordon off Gilda's trail. It has been a long time since I read it, so I could be misremembering.
The greatest moment in this comic is Batman leaving a plate for Grundy on Thanksgiving. Compassion should always be a core element of Batman's character. Batman should care about his villains and try to help them instead of beating them to a pulp. Modern Batman just doesn't hit as much as Classic Batman.
While I enjoy the story I can agree with you on some of these points there is one more gripe I have to with it and that is for a two face origin story it really doesn't dive into harveys core characteristics very much it's so focused on the mob and not the freaks that are supposed to be taking over the lime light
Alberto motive makes sense if you stop and put yourself in his shoes. His dad neglected him for years, everyone in his family look down on him and ignore him. Alberto became do obsessed with getting recognition that he became a twisted monster just like the other Gotham rogues.
Dude any gun can be very dangerous.
I've always seen Carmine as more complex not pure evil. He is no saint but he is corrupt.
You think long halloween but honestly I think the Nolan trilogy is overrated and frankly I hate how influential it has become on batman media. I will agree that eye of the beholder is better.
Honestly Rogue this video just devolved into you ranting about how much you hate Long Halloween and makes you sound bitter. It is nice to hear your voice again but dude you need to chill on the criticism
Way too harsh.
I agree with you on the motivation parts but the rest of his criticisms are rock solid. I like the story, too, but that doesn't mean that we should throw up a wall and muffle out all criticism on it.
As for the gun thing, obviously any gun can be dangerous, but you don't seem to get his point. If all you're packing is a cheap .22 caliber pistol and you open fire on a group of armed killers (or just armed normal dudes, in general), unless Deadshot or John Marston is the one holding that thing, then you're not going to kill everybody. It's simply not happening, there's not enough rounds or time or stopping power. If you ever had any experience with the mechanics of firearms then you would realize how silly it is to refute the point about Holiday's weapon being a ridiculous decision.
Yeah his motives are fine but Gilda's suck
@AAllen-br8it I was just sharing my bloody opinion no need to get condescending with me! And I was not saying he should not complain but he just sounded bitter or did you not notice over the bloody ranting!?
@@tayojones9460 seek emotional help.
Can only guess they came from the same school as JJ Abrahms and his Mystery Box crap
What about its sequel, Dark Victory?
I’d say Dark Moon Rising (monster men and mad monk) followed by the man who laughs, eye of the beholder and four of a kind are the best follow ups to year one
I prefer Images over Man Who Laughs.
Happy Halloween mr. Rouges
Sal, I've been saying this for YEARS! The Long Halloween just sucks. But it's the only Batman story that casual fans can cite as a mystery story (even though there are tons of Batman mystery stories out there)!. I hate Loeb, he sucks!
i think it's fun and entertaining but ultimately the mystery falls flat (like hush)
You're back!
Oh shoot bro when did you start uploading again????