Miguel is fascinating, purely because if you pay attention you'll notice that he isn't completely certain about the spider-verse at all. When Gwen says "I don't know how to fix this" at the start, he responds with "Yeah, well...join the club," before tossing her a watch. When he goes to follow Miles to his universe, he yells for somebody to "deal with Spot," not seeming to understand the threat he poses or even understanding that order would directly contradict the canon he's working so hard to protect. Catching Spot would be indirectly saving Jeff. Miguel is both right and wrong. He's doing what he thinks is the best possible thing he can, but he doesn't understand nearly enough about the Spider-Verse and the canon to be making these decisions. He's winging it, the same way all the other Spiders are, and it really humanizes him. When Gwen asks him "Do you really know what will happen if he breaks the canon," Miguel shoots back "Do you want to find out?" I think even he isn't certain whether or not the canon is what killed his daughter - he just decided it was because it would at least give an explanation to it. It's a rationale that helps him sleep at night, because if there's no explanation than it would torment him nonstop. Like "what could I have done to stop it from happening?"
Yeah this is what I think too is the most obvious. He doesn't know what's going to happen, he just knows what HAS happened sucks. "Correlation does not equal causation" kind of thing
I think Miguel killed his variant in the other universe , so that he could have a family again … and then it all went south when he tried to fix the glitch problem
Damn that explanation was actually amazing but don’t you think miles is quite careless since he is acting off emotions rather truly understand that he could kill billions if he saves his dad. Even if it’s not certain, does that justify tampering with it having no knowledge of the outcome?
I think what miguel fails to realize is because miles is an anomaly, canon events do not apply to him the same way, hes literally the first anomaly left alone and alive, his canon events wont be like the other canon events if the spider society leaves him alone and stops trying to force theirs on him
@@lorenzomizushal3980 I would agree with you there but the anomaly started because that spider wasnt supposed to bite him, so its forcing a destiny and cannon events that otherwise wouldnt happen if he got bit by a spider in his universe (this is atleast my understanding of it)
Actually nope, Miles is still Spiderman at the eyes of the Canon(of his own universe), because his universe didn't collapse and either Earth 42, things just pay out differently for both Miles's, but our Miles is now part of the Canon, let's just assume his universe is pretty ok and adapted himself to Miles's Existence as Spiderman, so, if a Earth recognizes you as Spiderman, you are doomed to suffer the same patterns of the other Spidermans, so nope, Miles is not free of the Canon, he's part of it
I have a theory. I think Miguel is right to an extent. I believe the catastrophe he faced was caused by his own meddling in his variant's universe instead of his own. I think Canon Events can be changed so long as the Spider-Man from that universe does the changing. I think Miles can save his dad, but he has to be the one to do it.
That’s… actually… could be true. I mean, it would explain the different spidermen in the first place. However, one would first need to know the canon event to then change it.
Everything in the movie points out that you can only know and change the Canon Events through outside interfering. It happened to Pavitr thanks to Miles, and to Gwen because of her time in the Spider Society. So Miles has a chance of saving his dad, but this pretty much means that every Spider person that doesn't get to know about the multiverse is doomed to live through their tragic Canon Events without a chance of stopping them.
Actually I believe the opposite. The meddling can be done as long as someone else is involved. Pavitr's Universe Meddling will work because Miles did the saving. Gwen's Universe Meddling worked because Miguel (unintentionally) put George Stacy on a collision path with Spider Woman's identity, thus putting him on the road to resigning and thus saving himself from certain death. And Jefferson Davis will live. But not because Miles will do the saving. But because it is Gwen Stacy who will do the saving. The first movie is about Faith - Stan Lee (It always fits, eventually), Jefferson Davis (I see this spark in you and it's amazing, I love you Miles), Peter Parker (It's a leap of faith Miles), May Parker (took you long enough). The movie ended on Peter trusting Miles to defeat Kingpin (not bad kid). The second movie expands on Trust - Gwen trusts her dad with her identity, Rio trusts her son to look after himself, Hobie trusts Gwen after leaving the Spider Society, everyone trusts Gwen to join her in the crusade to save Miles. The movie ends with Gwen forming her own band to save Miles. And so, the third movie would be about the thing that's born from Faith and Trust. Co-operation, inter-dependence. But why? Because the point of canon events isn't to cause destruction. It's to cause change. Miles got bit by a spider and changed. The spider's universe changed because of Spiderman's absence. Gwen and George both changed as individuals in response to the painful revelation. Miles changed further to become someone more resilient by not giving in to the pressure and deciding to do his own thing. Miguel, however, escaped to his counterpart's universe. He stagnated. And thus he was forced to change by the laws of the multi-verse itself.
This is actully so underrated this video shows how miles just wasn’t told what to do, he told himself and the infinity of spider people that could go on forever.
Miguel likely suffered from an incursion, they are created when someone is in the wrong universe for too long and it causes their original universe to collide with the one they are currently in.
I dunno - the text of the first movie shows that Miguel likely experienced a tragedy caused by the collider from the first movie, but he BELIEVES that it was his fault, that HE was the cause - even though it wasn’t. So, Miguel is basically a conspiracy theorist that assumes motives and intentions that aren’t necessarily there, as opposed to the possibility of coincidence or chance. And the texts of the films bear this out, too.
@@traktor420That's a good question but I also think its because alot of spider people there are there part time and not all the time like miguel but thage just my headcanon 🤷🏽♂️
What I love is that this entire argument is the same one Miguel had with Peter in Edge of Time. For those who aren't familiar, there's a game called Edge of Time where classic Spidey and 2099 Spidey team up to stop some time travelling shenanigan's from basically collapsing time. There comes a moment where Peter learns that Mary Jane will die, and Miguel immediately shoots down saving her because time is LITERALLY tearing itself apart and they can't afford to risk that for one person. There's of course personal stakes here, but Peter makes a good point by basically calling Miguel out for not understanding what being Spider-Man means. That if you know someone is going to die and do nothing, that is fundamentally against what the idea of Spider-Man is. That there is no risk that's too great to just let someone die when you can actually do something about it. It's understandable, given their backgrounds. Peter has time and time again suffered for his own inaction. His entire choice to become Spider-Man was because he chose not to step in. Plus, he lives in a time brimming with superheroes. He's actually a pretty small fish in a very big pond, so he CAN afford to go out of his way to help the little guy. Hell, during big earth shattering events, Spider-Man usually stays on the sidelines helping civilians while the heavy hitters duke it out. At least in the comics, by 2099, there are no more superheroes. Miguel is pretty much all there is. He IS the one and only person responsible for the protection of his Earth. He can't afford to take risks when the fate of the world is his burden alone.
Miles theme through the movie is “make 2 cakes.” You can have your cake and eat it too if you have two cakes. Across the Spider-verse leaves us with 2 Miles. They will work together to save his father and save the multiverse (beat Spot). He will have his cake and eat it too
lol i'm sorry but NO, cuz that 2nd Miles we met at the end of ASTV is literally EVIL and that dimension's version of the Prowler, remember?? evil Prowler Miles doesn't give a DAMN about good Mile's (Spider-Man) dad, hence when he (Prowler Miles) literally chained up Spidey Miles, mocked him, and said "YOUR dad, not mine" with an uncaring attitude. so this theory of yours is REALLY unlikely to happen bruh 😬🤷🏾♂️
I mean the thing is that the ethical dilemma only really works if you take Miguel at his word. It's like you're doing the trolly problem, but Miguel is the only one whose actually seen the train tracks and you have to take him at his word that switching the tracks will save more lives than those who'll die. Now I'm not trying to say that I think Miguel is purposefully lying, but nothing we've actually seen in the movie seems to suggest that that Miguel's theory of canon is actually correct, at least in terms of the idea that breaking it destroys the world. For instance the one big example we see happen in real time is when Miles saves Police Captain Seng and then the giant rift opens up. But as Miles quickly points out before getting shut down, that hole was clearly caused by the spot's meddling, yet Miguel attributes it directly to the breaking of canon instead despite the context. There could be some force that causes universes to collapse but it might have nothing to do with canon events. For example I think a popular theory is that it has to do more with direct meddling with another universe's affairs. Simple swinging in and changing one or two things due to your presence isn't necessarily a big deal. But if you live in a universe for years and are constantly having effects on the course of events, then it stands to reason that you cause more and more instability, until eventually that universe can't handle it anymore. Thus it doesn't necessarily matter what happens in a given spiderman's universe, it only matters how much people affect other universes with their cross-dimensional travel. Ironically enough, Miguel could be causing the very instability he was trying to prevent by forming his interdimensional spider squad and constantly hopping all over the place. It would also explain why he experienced such a universal collapse as he took over his old life, and thus was causing tons of changes to that universe. Meanwhile something like the spider that bit miles only did that one thing and then was killed, meaning that while that one action had a big impact on that universe, it was still only one change and thus didn't create much instability. And in turn the Spider's home dimension of Earth-42 didn't experience any instability because all they did was lose some random spider, so no cross-universe contamination happened. So yeah I mean I totally get how people agree with Miguel, saving one life is nothing compared to the countless billions that will die, especially when that would presumably include the life you're trying to save. But I am like 90% certain that Miguel is in some way completely wrong about his theories and that he's just trying to rationalize some way to force his own trauma onto others.
Wow, great comment. Yeah, from a recent video I watched, it does seem that Miguel's conclusion about why dimensions are falling apart is faulty. There's probably more to it than just Miles. It would be interesting to see how the sequel will resolve these questions.
Both Gwen and Miles directly ask Miguel about how he knows canon events are true in the movie, and for both he doesn’t give an answer. And hell, when Gwen asks him he responds with “wanna find out?” Implying that he isn’t entirely sure about it himself. It’s wrong for Miguel to force so much suffering onto other spider people over a theory he states as fact that even he himself isn’t entirely sure about
The idea that people think Miguel is "The only one who's seen universes collapse and everyone else has taken him by his word and just runs with it." fails to really become an argument when we literally see that multiple Spider people were witnessing the destabilization of the universe Miguel tried to insert himself into. Peter B. Parker was even there and confirms it to both the audience and Miles. It should be common knowledge by now that destabilizations of universes HAS been witnessed and IS a threat- a threat that Miguel is not making up, hence the reason why so many spider people have joined the collective. Miguel even mentions that they've tried to restabilize universes that have been disrupted and sometimes they're successful and sometimes they're not. Miguel isn't lying to anyone about the events happening, THEY ARE HAPPENING, why they're happening could be up to debate- but only to the audience because the spider society is only running off of their observed data i.e. An anomaly- something or someone- disrupts the "cannon" event of a spider person's universe and that universe starts to destabilize until the anomaly is taken out. let's even look at the beginning of the movie to lock this example in, when the trio are fighting the Renascence universe' Vulture there are several instances where objects glitched out in the art gallery, as the Vulture makes his way out of the gallery things get worse with even the building glitching out. At the end of the fight sequence Lyla even says something along the lines of "The anomaly is contained, universe is stabilized, the cannon is intact." I don't blame them for thinking the reason for the destabilizations and destruction of universes is because of that. it MAY not be, but they have no alternate data saying that it's not, all their data and experience is telling them that disrupting the events that happen in their lives will destabilize and destroy their universes and instead of trying to test that theory wrong like a bunch of psychopaths and risk countless of lives in the process they decide to play it safe and let things unravel naturally. This has happened so consistently that you can't blame them for coming to the concussion that they have when they have over a year worth of data all pointing to the same conclusion- which is a reflection of real life where statistics and consistent findings will lead scientists, engineers, annalists, and so one to form a single conclusion with the data they've gathered.
It’s clear that Miguel has been doing this for a time with the other spider people. It’s confirmed that he even created the group before he broke a canon event. We saw in a flashback that Peter B Parker was with him trying to stop the collapse. I doubt they would turn Miguel into a villain because he is an established hero; turning him into villain would make a lot of people upset.
Perfect video. Miguel definitely wasn't a villain. Antagonist, but not a villain. Different ideologies, with no one choice being objectively superior to the other
instead of deontology I think the trolley problem is more a conflict of utilitarianism vs Kantianism. Miles isn't worried about moral right and wrong (deontology) so much as he refuses to abandon his principles (kantianism) even when threatened with a catastrophic outcome. This basic rejection of forced moral choice actually echoes the climax of the first Sam Raimi Spider-man movie: Where green goblin tries to force spider-man choose between his personal love, mary jane and a literal trolley full of strangers. Toby Maguire Spider-man saves both. This kind of goes against the general vibe of the early comics, which seem to bend towards the strictly utilitarian. Spider-man must always sacrifice his personal relationships and even personal responsibilities for the sake of his larger responsibility as spider-man. With great power comes great responsibility. If being spider-man means your close friends and family have worse lives, but tens or hundreds of lives are improved or saved, Spider-Man MUST make the sacrifice because to do otherwise would be selfish and irresponsible. If bringing a bad guy to justice means you lose your job, you lose your job. If stopping the bomb means you irreparably damage your relationship with the woman you want to marry, sucks to be you. That was the general vibe of the comics and it also provided a lot of drama, which kept the story interesting and helped sell issues.
nah, MIles is just selfish. He'd rather damn the multiverse than be told what to do, damn other people than damn his father. Miles is an emotional teenager, irrational and only starting to be his own man.
Well like in fullmetal alchemist the law of equivalent exchange applies everywhere therefore something must be lost for something else to be gained. Miles just needs to let go despite how hard it might be for him
glad another saw the gobby reference in Miguel's set of choices... that sadistic lunatic! also tony stark and fear made Ultron... you sure that won't repeat again in spiderverse? Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
@@lorenzomizushal3980imagine wanting to save your dad /s Although imagine being told that you’re so important your life would have to be miserable or the universe gets destroyed. Pretty sure destiny is the bad guy here, not miles
I think the major issue with Miguel's view of Miles is that the canon event in question isn't really a willing conscious sacrifice that any Spiderman would have made without this meta canon event knowledge. Rather it's an observation of (almost?) every other universes Spiderman trying to save everybody they can, and ultimately not being able to succeed unscathed. I would argue that Miguel's attempt to lock Miles in a cage for a few days is even more harmful to _Miguel's_ philosophy than letting Miles go try to "do both", and then ultimately fail because the universe wouldn't let him. If Miguel had his way, Miles wouldn't be there to witness the death, which was an important detail of the canon event as described, and even if Miguel brought him with as a prisoner just to witness, does Miles really learn the same lesson and become the same person as every other spiderman to experience that event? Every occasion of the canon breaking that dooms the universe as Miguel argues takes place after the intervention of an outsider to that universe's canon, and if Miles' father dying is his own canon event he simply cannot be an outsider to it. As a little tangent, why would Miguel be afraid of Miles violating his own canon? Is Miles somehow that much more competent than every other spiderman that he might succeed by himself where every other spiderman was destined to fail? That's all assuming that Miguel is 100% accurate with his description of canon events in the first place. His argument becomes even worse if he turns out to be wrong / lying in any way
I was thinking along those lines too. Keeping Miles in a cage does more harm than good, especially if Miles needs to be present for certain events for the canon event to even happen; Miguel could be indirectly preventing the canon and not know it.
Something I noticed about Miles and Miguel when it comes to how they treat the concept of Spider-man is that they both interact with it differently. Miguel treats being Spider-Man like a curse or a job. Something you're burdened with. He tells Miles it's a job or something he signed up for and everything about him is basically "It is what it is". Meanwhile Miles treats being Spider-Man like an obligation you get to make the decisions in. He believes that if you have the option to do something then you SHOULD do something. Spider-Man doesn't just let people die. Spider-Man doesn't accept fate as it is. No matter how many times he's hit he fights for what is right Miguel also goes against what Peter b. parker told miles. Don't think about saving the world, think about saving one person. And Miguel... Well you know. He's the total opposite. He thinks there needs to be sacrifices. Miguel goes against everything Spider-Man stands for and Ironically tells the one Spider-Man who understands it more than him that he *isn't* Spider-Man. Funny how that works huh?
save the many over the few and soon there will be few left; save the few over the many and that will get you there sooner; the best answer is to *make another cake* because there will always be another slice. spider-man was always an under-dog whichever way you write him... he ain't anyone but a nerdy super hero trying to get by both of his lives, sure he ain't perfect... but he still tries. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
Thats what makes Miles a GREAT Spiderman. He goes against both options presented to him, but decides a third option to do his own thing to try and save both his dad and the multiverse
I feel it will lean more in his favor as he is an anomaly but there's always sacrifices of being a hero and Miles will likely learn that, just not in a canon sort of way. It would be better Miles wasn't 100% right since he is pretty op to begin with. It'd make him more grounded. Think about it, not only is he Spiderman, he has Electric, Camouflage, and now he's an "anomaly" (where he has no canon strings attached like every other spidey). Miles needs something to keep him grounded and being 100% right wouldn't help imo. I feel like he will lose whatever it is in a non canon way.
@@RxRoninmiles knows about sacrifices that what i hate todays spiderman stories. They trying to teach a character a lesson that he/she *ALREADY* knows or in another word they keep telling them how their stories is supposed to go they keep telling them “venom is evil” “gwen always gonna die” “in order to get a new hero original hero should die ” “mj is only love interest for peter” to the point we lost the main point of the character the very humanity of the character is lost thats why miles quite is so lmpactfull by “nah amma gonna do my own thing” because he is not just telling this to miguel he also telling to *US* who keep telling the cannon events must happen. its the creators of the film calling modern wrlters to stop not everthing has to be have bad outcomes bad endings
5:44 that’s a great way to think about it because everything about the trolley problem is wrong, there shouldn’t have been a train since there was construction, the train should slam its breaks or blare its horn, the workers shouldn’t be completely oblivious to anything near them, and the person choosing shouldn’t be anywhere near either the lever nor the construction. Side note: I don’t know if the creators meant to make it that way, but the spider came from another dimension and was glitching, but when it bit miles and overwrote his dna, he didn’t glitch, and I think it’s because the spider became part of miles’ story, his dimension, and the canon overwrote itself
I really hope Miles and Miguel end up in an alliance after they've both been proven right and wrong. My biggest fear for the third movie is that, if Miguel's argument is considered de facto wrong and Miles is exonerated without any more conflict between their ideologies, it'd undermine the struggle everyone else went through.
Mmm…except Miguel IS incorrect. But, of course - the movie COULD thread the needle and show that there’s no way Miguel could have KNOWN that he was wrong, and that he’s not BAD for being wrong. There’s a way to do it… but Miles really isn’t wrong. He just isn’t. So that “maybe they’ll both see they were right AND wrong” is categorically off the table.
@@phastinemoonBruv having Miles just not be wrong would be the most boring resolution to the conflict. It could boil down to "le anomaly...le no consequences!" if it isn't handled with nuance. It could waste the magnificent tension already built up
@stefanoschincoa8410 tbh Miguel being wrong would be the most predictable outcome considering everyone hates him and Hobbie created an army to destroy what he built.
I see both of their perspectives as right and wrong but one thing I really hope happens in the sequel is that both Miles and Miguel see the errors of their ways and end up breaking every Spider Man/Woman's curse with both of their view points and philosophy in the end While I do like the idea of Miles breaking this curse too, it would also be cool if the 'Spider Society' also ended up joing him too, if possible
Miguel is probably wrong but nobody really knows that or has definitive proof that it is wrong. For all anyone in the movie knows, Miles is rushing into the destruction of his universe. He has witnessed universes getting destroyed by disruption of canon events in Pavitr Prabhakar's universe and when Miguel showed him his daughter's universe getting destroyed and even after seeing this, Miles still is rushing headlong into the end of his universe. If Miles ends up saving his dad, the destruction of his universe would just end up killing him anyways so there really would be no point (Idk I might have missed something in the movie). Again, Miguel might be wrong but nobody knows that.
"You can't have your cake and eat it too" Miles: Unless you make two cakes. Later in the movie we see Miles unintentionally destroyed both cakes while being Spider-Man. I don't know, this is a really complicated question that I'm looking forward to seeing how they handle it There is a very quick glimpse of Spot killing countless Spider-Men when he ascends to his full potential before showing Jeff meeting his end. Realistically, there is going to be casualties either way. I wouldn't be surprised if they played a bait and switch and ended up killing Rio instead since they were putting a lot of emphasis on her throughout.
This is what I predict too! I don’t think Jeff will die, but instead Rio. People bring up the cake scenario, but in that scene you are right! Both cakes ended up being messed up.
I loved it, great video. hope miles and miguel can work together, tho Miguel was for sure trippin in the movie I don’t view him as evil, jus obsessively desperate
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video! Yeah, I don’t view Miguel as evil, he’s just believes that Miles will end up destroying the multiverse so I can see why he was so driven to stop Mile lol.
If it weren't for the fact that it's implied that Miguel is wrong, I'd reluctantly have to side with him (although I'd still heavily sympathize with Miles, and I do respect his philosophy that Spider-Man should try his best to save everyone, which is true and a genuinely consistent part of that identity).
I think that my more logical nature makes me lean toward Miguel's side. But after thinking about it, I ended up rooting for miles. Seeing him try his hardest to accomplish what seems impossible is just so admirable to me.
The problem I have with movies/anime that do this is often time they make the person that make this choice somehow able to toss away an cons and have them have the best of both worlds. While that is great no one has to lose, it kinda makes the whole things seem much less impactful as the MC always make it out unharmed. I really want it to be if they go this route and he somehow manages to save his father while not destroying everything Mighel still see him as too much of a risk to join the spiderverse as his actions to go against the canon, while it didn't collapses his verse due to his abnormality, would could still cause the undesirable effect to canon verses. I might get hate for this view though.
I completely agree with you. I hope the sequel shows that Miguel is right in some regard--that Miles' actions have consequences. I think it would diminish Miles' character and the Spider-Man identity, if he was able to have his cake and eat it too. For the sequel, I have a prediction that Miles will be able to save his father, but his mom, Rio, will be the one that dies.
Spider-Man stories always try to make it look essential that their needs to be sacrifice. But Spider-Verse is twisting these tropes, so this is a case where it does work because of the material it’s pulling it from.
I would compare this dilemma with Peter having to sacrifice May for the city in Spider-Man PS4 because of the devil's breath virus, and Peter had to choose between duplicating and spreading the antidote for the city, or giving it to his aunt. I think allowing his dad to die for the sake of all life is the Spider-Man move. He'd hate it, but it would be the right thing to do. That being said, I would hope Miguel would lose his job as the leader of the spider society due to his handling of Miles. Originally, from the trailers of Across the Spiderverse, I believed Miles would be selfish and trade the multiverse for his dad. I wanted him to choose a literal infinite amount of life thoughout the multiverse, over his dad's. That way he and his mom alone are the ones who suffer, and no one else. But this video made me think of another option. Instead of allowing his father or the multiverse to die, he sacrifices his own life. He adds himself to the equation. And since the troly problem is set in stone and Miles being Spider-Man is an anomaly... why not make a third option? Someone will die, but it doesnt have to be the multiverse or his father. Yes, that might mean Miles would die, but that's what Peter would do. I don't think Sony has the balls to kill off Miles, fans would flip. But it would fit the values of the character. When Peter died in the ultimate comics, fans were furious, but it was beautifully done. And his death was permanent. Something that rarely occurs in comics. He died protecting his family and his friends. It was noble. Miles could do that. Or maybe Prowler Miles would sacrifice himself for his parallel self's dad. Personally I think this is a little too convenient and lacks balls, because now they can keep making Miles movies or have him in other sony animated spider films, but it might work idk. Sorry for the long comment.
Well put comment and succinct as well but one correction-unless I’m wrong and feel free to correct me 😅-but 1610 Peter Parker is alive and with the Ultimate Universe coming back he very well might see him again unless he’s still vacationing with MJ who knows where.
@@keondesouza9010I don't know if they'll bring peter back in the ultimate invasion book or whatever it's called, but the 1610 peter does technically come back through a clone (one that actually looked like him) and then left NY with either Gwen or MJ.
I think a heroes death is noble & good but not very well received to essentially martyr a 15 year old black kid for a cops life (even if its his dad ) 🤐
@@austincde Sorry since you obviously weren't replying to me, but I think that if anyone did have an issue with a hero sacrificing themselves to save someone, simply because that hero is a minority and that "someone" is a cop, then it's their problem. Just to be clear, this isn't directed at you and I'm not trying to change how that hypothetical person feels.
I think a good thing to realize is that, he's already had a cannon event. Miles had his uncle died in his own arms. Despite what everyone is saying how he needs to let his dad die, he dosen't really need to. Aaron in his universe was a canon event, and he thinks he can save everyone. This I agree with, not only has he experienced a canon event, but looking back at the first movie, he's rebuilt the connection with his father after being bit and having the spark of just keep going. This is why i think Miles can save the universe or multiverse, because he has already had that tragic event that defines spidey for who he is.
While I overall do side with Miguel O'Hara in this argument, I also do believe that since Miles is an anomaly… Cannon events may not apply to him in the same way. That argument is still open, and I can't wait to see how they resolve this issue in "Beyond the Spider-verse"
I think if Miguel is correct about the consequences of Miles’s actions, I’m with Miguel. How would you like it if some random kid sacrifices your entire universe and existence so he can do his own thing and save his dad, who will die anyways. But most people think Miguel is partially wrong, which I’m inclined to agree with.
I have to disagree because it’s just like spider man said in edge of time if you know someone life is in danger and you sit there can do nothing then you don’t know the first thing about being spider man and that’s it’s what miles is doing and miguel is still doesn’t agree
@@doctorx2307 I mean the issue is that if miguel is right, you will only delay Mr Morales's deah and cause Mrs Morales, Ganke, and many other innumerable people to die too.
@@doctorx2307ı understand both sides ı agree with miles since because of a limited data tell me your father needs to die ı would do the same thing as miles but in other hand ı agree with miguel since we know something cause universe to collapse we dont know why but it happens and we cant really test the theory because well we are not lunatics and since we dont know what gonna happen if a anomaly like miles succed so playing safe is best way this more like a luck game for the both sides both could be wrong or right
Miguel is objectively right, but it's more likely something else is causing the collapse Cuz this topic is too serious to actually stick with in these types of movies
Miguel likely suffered from an incursion, they are created when someone is in the wrong universe for too long and it causes their original universe to collide with the one they are currently in.
@@tuvergalarga6144i think that wath they are wearing or something like that makes them stable since we see that without that item they start effected by glitches
Miguel's reasoning is pretty sound in general here, but the course of action he's taking here is not any better than Miles' plan even under his own assumptions. He specifically said that the canon event in question took place "during a battle with an archnemesis," and to hold Miles here during the time that battle should take place is just as much, if not more, of a violation of the canon event than Miles going there and trying to "do both." Every other Spiderman who went through that event without knowledge of canon events would have tried to save everyone, and ultimately failed because Spiderman can't be everywhere at once to save everyone and stop their archnemesis at the same time. Noone told Pavitr that he needed to let Inspector Singh die, at least as far as I could tell, but it would've happened without outside intervention anyway because under Miguel's theory that's just how the canon should play out. The same logic should apply to Miles, who should be allowed to play his role in his own story, and without any other spider people there to intervene, it would likely play out the same way. Instead, Miguel opts to pull Miles out of his own canon story, and completely disregards any consequences that may have on that universe's canon.
To me what I think Across the spiderverse is about is how Spider-Man’s story is reiterated. We expect more or less the same iterations of uncle ben dying, an aunt may like figure, and Peter fulfilling his responsibilities. But to me, Miles arc is a commentary on how while those elements are important, it’s better to try something different and leave it to fate to see how life (or in a meta sense, a story) plays out. That’s just how I see it though.
One thing I also remembered is when Dr. Strange tells MCU Spider Man “Their Sacrifice means more than Their Lives.” When Peter was determined to turn the Villains good. Then changed his own story with Goblin killing Aunt May and tried to kill MJ. And another part at the end of the movie in no way Home. To save the world from the crisis of Peter’s identity he had to let go of those he loved, his friends Ned and MJ and Happy.
People be saying there is a way for Miles yo figure out some kind of plan to save his dad and the universe. But he doesn’t know that. He’s just going to rush in and hope for the best not thinking about what happened the other times before. He doesn’t know about all different theories he’s just being reckless and dangerous and not thinking it through.
I think Miles is right. He sees both choices as right and wrong but he tries to do both and that’s good because not only is he trying but he’s also trying to find balance in it as Spider-Man’s job is not to actually fight villains but to help people, not kill them.
Then again his actively risking the lives of billions trying to save his dad, he doesn't know how canon work and basically gambling that "could" save everyone. Voiding the most important part of being spider man "responsibility" cause you can't convince me that gambling lives on a hantch is a responsible thing to do in that situation. At least make it so that miles actually thinks on what's his risking. I don't fully support Miguel either however his was Is more "safe" than miles
What's important is not standing by and allowing someone to suffer or die because you do nothing if don't get that you don't get the first thing about being Spiderman -Peter(Edge of time)
Miles: a guy who wants to save his dad but lets the universe die even many people. Miguel: let one person die but many people and the universe will be saved.
Some of Miguel’s attitude is relatable to me. I have had preferences and I wondered about things as if my life’s a story. On the other hand, like Miles, I’m an artist and I can relate to the moral values.
I think that the "unraveling in mumbatten" was the spots doing and not then canon event it has the same texture if a spot Portal as well, and i also think that it is canon for miles to break the canon, someone else in the comment section of this video also said that since Miles in an abnormality, breaking canon will probably not apply the same way since he isnt supposed to even exist and i totally agree.
Miguel knows nothing, or is the Prowler of Earth 2099. In Spot's big "I made you and you made me" speech, we see that the spider from Earth-42 was supposed to bite Miles, AKA the Prowler from Earth-42, but instead it ended up in Earth 1610 and bit that Miles, so Miles is not really an anomaly since there was always supposed to be a Miles Morales Spiderman. Also, the universe Miguel thought he destroyed, those glitches are the same ones we saw in "Into the Spider Verse." The universe Miguel thought he destroyed was actually destroyed by an Incursion, which happens when two Universes collide with one another. In addition, when the black hole appeared in Earth 50101, Miles correctly indicated that it was one of Spot's holes, based on the big black hole and the black strings shooting out at the sides and contracting. These pieces of information makes me question if Cannon Events are real, if Miguel is stupid, or if he is actually lying. The lying part also connects with the fact that Miguel was portrayed many times in green and purple, the prowler colors. And also Miguel can't stick to walls. So it is also possible that Miguel is a Prowler pretending to be a Spider hero.
Also worth mentioning that they’re trying to stop MILES from saving HIS father. They’re trying to stop a Spider-Man from his respective universe from saving a loved one from that same universe. The logic falls apart when you compare it to Miguel’s experience. Plus of course, a comment here mentioned how Miguel’s theory is likely faulty because it based more on time rather than the event itself. All to say, I’m like 95% sure that Miguel’s theory is super wrong and he’s gonna get proven wrong in BTSV.
I think a theory is, this Miguel was Prowler in his dimension, and used to work for Alchemax. Upon his family's unfortunate passing away in some accident, he used the portal technology to specifically search for a Universe where he d*es, but his family lives, so that he can take his de*d self's place. The other him, also worked for Alchemax, and due to some rivalry or something, he was k*lled, one night when he was returning from office. The cannon event was that, after Miguel's d*ath, police would have investigated the company, accidentally finding Kingpin's collider, and temporarily shutting it down We've seen how the collider, if gone wrong, could make Universes collapse. Thus, Miguel's d*ath, was a cannon event, that would've saved that Universe... But since, this Miguel, replaced the d*ad one, no investigation was required, thus, police never shut down the collider, and Kingpin went ahead with his experiment, and accidentally merged the 2 Universes, which led to its collapse Ever since then, this Miguel is *obsessed* with cannon events
One explanation that I came up with (though take it with a grain of salt as I haven't seen the movie) is that it was some sort of "divine punishment" that caused that world with Miguel's family to collapse. The way I see it is that the multiverse or some other higher power saw Miguel was neglecting his duties as Spider-Man in his own universe for selfish reasons, and as punishment, that universe was destroyed in an attempt to teach Miguel a lesson, one that he might learn in Beyond the Spider-Verse.
The one thing I don't get is wouldn't Uncle Aaron's death already prove that Miles cant escape the "Destined Spider-Man Canon" and has already suffered through it?
Honestly, I see way more evidence for Miles' case than Miguel's, especially after seeing people on TH-cam pointing out some pretty big errors in Miguel's logic.
if into the spider-verse was anyone can wear that mask, then across is only you define the mask and what matters. so excited for what then next one will bring. p.s really enjoyed your video great work!
Miles because O’hara blames Miles for something that wasn’t even his fault. He didn’t want to get bit by that spider from another dimension, that was Kingpin’s fault.
It’s tricky bc WHAT made 42 spider get to our Miles universe in the first place? Hopefully it dives into that in BYTS but as far as I know that is now the new canon event but it’s very sad bc that universe in the end has no Spider-Man no one to save them when original miles already had the perfect Spider-Man/Peter Parker
So in a way Miguel is just blaming Miles existence ppl say Miguel is the actual anomaly but that’s just so untrue he’s the future LITERALLY the most important/strongest version of Spider-Man besides Ghost Rider/Cosmic Spider-Man
The Trolley Problem is different from Miguel's POV, He isn't asking Miles to pull the lever and kill one person but asked not to pull the lever and that will kill everyone including the one he's trying to save, Spider Society had experience and were used to dealing with this for about a year, sometimes they were successful sometimes they were not, so why would they trust some guy who didn't know about this until a few hours ago to figure this out.
This one hard, but I understand Miguel’s choice between saving one person and saving the entire multiverse. Miles wants to do both , he didn’t want his father to died. So what if he add himself to the equation?
This reminds me of that question at the start of Hunter x Hunter. It was something like if you could only save your son or your daughter which would you choose? And the answer was silence because there is no true right answer in a situation like that, but even after they passed the test Gon couldn’t stop thinking about it because what If something like that actually happened?
I do think it's a bit funny that Miguel didn't see any objections to permitting Hobie to join, given that ... well, anarchism is not inherently anti-utilitarian, since anarchism is about politics while utilitarianism is about morality, but it is generally going to be at odds with where Miguel actually takes things, i.e. having an authority figure try to force someone to hit the trolley lever against their will. I assume Miguel must've just thought it was, like, an aesthetic.
the doctrine of double effect has one more core component that often gets left out. not only the action has to be done with good intentions and the resulting good must be greater than the harm, but the action itself needs to be good in itself even though in this set of circumstances it produces some harm. for example, if you're making food and that takes some time which makes your kid a bit hungry because he has to wait for food for a bit longer, that's a negative but an unintended consequence of an otherwise good action of preparing food. another example is saving a person from drowning. real cpr almost always ends up in a cracked rib or two, but that's an unintended consequence of an otherwise good action (saving a life). without this component of the action needing to be good in itself the whole thing just collapses into ends justifying the means. for example, an idea gets thrown around in the movie "we wouldn't be who we are if it weren't for these tragedies.". taken to its logical conclusion, you could even justify causing tragedies if it meant building a strong character. because what's one life if you're gonna cause a person to save thousands? see how it's so easy to confuse consequentialism/ends justifying the means with the doctrine of double effect when you remove that core component?
I think the situation with Miguel is the "everything is possible" argument. Sure, its all possible, but not always likely. "Is it worth the risk?" Is the question Miguel's character posits. Its all fun and games till we find out Miles can't do everything... then its a whole other level of self reflection.
I can think of 2 ways to break down this problem: 1- The Angra Mainyu Wish Paradox - Fate/Zero - The Apocalypse happens and all of humanity is reduced to a population of 1200 and are forced to voyage the seas on 2 ships. 1 ship has 500 people on it and the other has 700. As they voyage a disaster causes both ships to begin sinking. You (or in this case Miguel or Miles), are the only one with the knowledge and skills to repair the ships, but there's only time to save 1. So which ship do you save? For this example let's say you chose the 700. When you do that, the ship of 500 captures you and forces you to fix their ship first. What do you do? To follow the original riddle, you fight your way back to the 700 ship, and fix it, but the 500 die. Eventually the remaining 700 decide to split up between 2 new ships: 400 and 300. Once again the ships, meet disaster and begin sinking just like last time, which do you save? The outcome is the same. 300 who tried to force you to fix theirs first die. And thus... you saved 400, but unknowingly, you let 800 total die. That's the logic Miguel's philosophy follows. For all the lives he's sacrificing to do what he thinks is saving more, it still adds up to countless corpses just to maintain a status quo. It's also the trap Miles would fall into without realizing it since he too is wrong. You cannot save every life and win every battle all the time. The second you think you can you set yourself up for nothing but tragedy, regret, sorrow, and failure. That's the flaw of Miles' philosophy. The second way of explaining is that above all else, I believe the 2 highest desires of humanity that even surpass food, sex, safety, drink, shelter, hopes, dreams, etc... Freedom and control. Freedom - limitless possibilities and choices. All options available. Control - the ability to actively affect the outcome of all choices so that all the outcomes are equal to or surpassing your desired results. Miles leans too far towards freedom. Miguel embodies control. Both are wrong when taken to an unbalanced extreme. Miles would inevitabily fail to save one or both ships while acting to save both alone. Miguel would follow through with saving the ships with more on them and letting the few die while not realizing the costs. The solution is something I came up with myself: No one can carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, nor should they be dumb or arrogant enough to try (Even Jesus had his apostles). To save the ships, I would have all those on board form chains of communications between each ship to pass instructions between the ships in real time so that both ships can be repaired and saved simultaneously. Do I expect this to work perfectly? No. But is it worth a shot and high odds of success compared to trying to do it all alone? Yes. They have have an entire army of Spider-beings with the ability to cross into alternate dimensions freely. Yet all they do is sit around twiddling their thumbs to maintain an algorithmic status quo. They have the potential to balance freedom and control. Yet as they are neither can.
but isn't your solution just a variation of miles's plan? if Miles had more people siding with him earlier, he WOULD have accepted help, but no one did until the end of the movie when the spider-people slowly started doubting Miguel's side Miles never said he would do it and it HAD to be alone, nor he would've tried to just recklessly save his father and f*ck the multiverse, he simply wanted to try to do both and to find a way to do so. He even tried to have anyone backing him up during the argument ("spider-man ALWAYS-" / "what about your dad? isn't he a captain?") but then he realized not even those who he thought would support him sided with him ("not always..." / "yeah..."). The spider-society SHOULD be trying to help him do both in any way they could, specially since most spider-man are intelligent people. This would allign more with "trying to help both ships through communication" idea, but in this situation, the people on the ship simply doesn't want you to even TRY to help both. Your solution is exactly what Miles wants to do, instead of pulling the lever to one side or another like Miguel or instead of, let's say, "run and try to warn the workers, before realizing it's too late and it was an irrational solution" like you suggest he would, he wants to do the equivalent of "baking 2 cakes", which is finding a solution to save both the multiverse and his father, he doesn't want to "return with two messed up cakes" again (losing both in the process)
@mrkyurem5499 Close, but no. Gwen was the one who assembled a band to try to help Miles and go against Miguel. Miles himself was never asking for them to help him save his dad per say. He was asking why they would each be OK with sacrificing someone THEY cared about if they knew that same someone was going to die. None of them like the idea but came to terms with it under Miguel's plan of maintaining the status Quo. They don't genuinely KNOW if what happened to Miguel will happen every time. (The laws of physics wouldn't allow it to happen that exact same way every time anyway, but none of them thought of that). Then when nobody seemed to side with him he took off to do it alone. Key: alone. He thrust himself right into the idea of trying to save both ships while taking all of it on himself, and thus, both ships would sink. There's no way he can take Spot alone, but he's stupid enough to try anyway perhaps even knowing it could lead to his death. Miles is still under the misguided and dangerous notion that heroes always win, good always triumphs, a super hero will always save the day. Life doesn't work that way no matter how much we wish otherwise. Gwen is the one implementing my plan. She sought the others to go help Miles. They are all going to go fight Spot alongside Miles to really see if they can save both ships. However, I wouldn't bet on all of them surviving. Someone is going to die in the next movie. That much is clear. Otherwise, this whole buildup means nothing because the message turns to "Everything will be fine. Good always wins! Kumbayah!" Recall how the original Peter Parker from Miles" universe seemed very happy with his life as Spiderman despite everything. Compare that to Miles who was struggling and feeling completely alone since he couldn't actually open up with anyone except the Spider people he had met a year prior but were gone. He later finds out they had every chance to go see him but didn't and thus he sought to go back to his world by himself. But now things get interesting... he encounters the embodiment of what that line of thinking leads to: Prowler Miles. Yeah that Miles has his uncle but at the cost of his father and clearly that Miles lives with a very broken outlook. Due to what? Loss. Failure. Isolation. Unwilling to help even another version of himself. Think about how twisted one has to be to reach that point but think how not unlike Miles that sounds given what he did to get to that universe. Miguel meanwhile still needs his outlook truly tested and realize his mistaken outlook would also sacrifice countless lives to save countless others. Maintaining a status quo eternally is also something that cannot be done indefinitely.
@@Kamina.D.Fierce You have great arguments, i'll give you that (not joking) But in my pov, the argument scene when he tries to reason with everyone by showing how being okay with countless deaths (just to maintain a status quo that they don't even know is true) sounds ridiculous also serves as a confirmation that no one wants to help him Literally no other spider-person, not even his friends, had the balls to even argue agaisnt Miguel's ideas. The notion of Miguel being wrong only clicked when they saw Miguel literally hurting Miles to force him to let his father die, pretty much invalidating his identity as spider-man AND sending Gwen back home (which for her character at that moment in the story could be considered cruel) because she DARED to try to de-escalate the situation (by talking to Miles like a human being) and just ASKED him if he is sure of everything he says. That is the only reason Gwen was able to form the band: Miles dared to go agaisnt Miguel first and managed to escape (also Gwen's own banishment contributes to it). Miles has no way of getting help from anyone. He didn't want to carry the whole world on his shoulders, but in the end he HAS to or else no one is going to save his father for him or even want him to do so himself. He is so desperate for help that he begs Prowler Miles to let him go, but not even himself seems to want to help him. If he hadn't reminded them of the idea that spider-man shouldn't let people die just for the sake of it that Gwen was able to form the band, otherwise they would, if Miles actually believed Miguel, just go on with their original plan of stopping Spot but not interfering in Miles's canon. I think Miles isn't acting irrationally, even if on paper it sounds like he is. He is desperate and alone, but he wants to stay true to what means being an Spider-Man: he's going to try to save everyone or die trying. Does it mean that by going alone, like he would if Gwen's band weren't to be formed, he would be able to save both? Of course not, that is exactly what all spider-man try before losing the police captain, and i think knowing about it beforehand wouldn't help as much (really, trying to convince his father not to go out on the streets during a situation where the entire city is at risk wouldn't work), and if he were somehow able to save his father, he wouldn't be able to stop Spot on his own anyways (actually, just as a side note, does Miles realize that him trying to break canon or not, the spider-society is going to try to stop Spot anyways? I think so, since that's what he saw in his vision of the future) and could even die trying, but that's still staying true to spider-man's self-sacrifice in some way. So, yeah, you're right about Miguel: by trying to stop Miles from breaking canon, he would be breaking it anyways by not letting him actually be there (since he supposedly has to be fighting spot and learn a lesson from his police captain's death, which would be "you can't save everyone", to fulfill canon). He is putting Miles's universe at risk anyways by trying to save it. Your solution, which you say is Gwen's solution at the end, is simply impossible for Miles by that point. So even if this idea works on paper, it only works if everyone else agrees to it: in your ship example, it only works if the ship that kidnapped you agreed to trying to help both instead of selfishly forcing you to only save their ship (in Miles's case, that ship is the multiverse and the kidnappers are the spider-society, they want to force him not to help his father, aka the second ship)
Well considering that in a interview they said the script was changed to spite people who refuse to see Miles as Spider-Man, I'm expecting Miles just will be completely correct. After all the canon events don't line up perfectly even with the main Peter Parker from 616 and since its tied to the MCU the real answer is more likely to be incursions. As for the debate itself I'm neutral. I've gone back and forth on the situation when it is brought up in video games as the context can change the whole equation. What those creators and others who trash on that group don't understand is those people don't see Spider-Man as a title, but a extension of Peter. So when you say anyone can be Spider-Man, to them you're saying anyone can be Peter Parker, which can never be the case. Honestly the first movie made more ground in changing minds than this one by making Miles his own man (GodzillaMendoza does a great video on how Miles used to suck) while not bringing down any of the other Spider-people down to prop him up. (showing Peter and Miles coexisting was also a step in the right direction) Affecting the comics for the better and now Miles is a great addition to the Marvel cast. All this one did was strengthen the backlash against Miles. Oh well, two steps forward, two steps back. On the other hand most people don't know that the Ultimate comics in general tend to be bad and so some people are generally talking about the quailtiy of those books instead of just Miles himself. (shrugs)
Yeah, I'm not an avid comic book reader, but I have heard of Miles being pretty boring. It was was really Spider-Verse that brought new life to the character and made him distinct from Peter Parker. I see your point that the mantle of Spider-Man is so intrinsically linked to Peter that any deviation from Peter's story is seen as disrespecting the mask. But when it comes to the canon events, I think it's less to do with specificity of how things pan out, but the event as a whole. Spider-Man will suffer and its part of his story. It may look different depending on the Spider-Man you're looking at but they all suffer to an extent. You may be right in that Miles will be written as completely in the right in the next movie, but I hope that's not the case. I hope the movie shows that suffering and loss is a part of life and its part of what makes someone a hero.
I think Miguel and Miles are both "right" but not for the reasons most think and it's not the movie's fault if we do not understand. See....this trend of Multiverse stories started with INTO THE SPIDERVERSE..which is a SONY movie based on Marvel comics. But since then most of the other Multiverse stories we have seen since have been in the MCU which are Disney movies and shows based on OTHER Marvel comics. Now in most cases when talking about the multiverse it's an infinite series of worlds that diverge from one another via billions of choices and paths taken and not taken. Anything is possible and you may exist or not exist in certain worlds or be radically different if you do. However there is the concept of the "Web of Life and Destiny" which is rooted into the Spiderman mythos. It's complicated, convoluted as hell and a really "woo woo" concept from early aughts Spiderman comics that leaned more into the metaphysical. But here is the director of Morbius on the subject in an interview last year trying to explain what went wrong and the post credit scene. Bold emphasis mine ” ...But the idea of having different timelines was something that was, for me, introduced within the movie universe with Into the Spider-Verse. When we were talking about making the movie, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse had just come out and it was a huge success. I told the guys, I said, “This is super common among comic book readers.” "...Exactly. I think it’s a meeting of those… because in THIS world, Spider-Man exists. In all the different Marvel timelines, you have a Spider-Man, it’s a TOTEM. In the Marvel Universe, what you say is that you have to have a Spider-Man in each universe for it to function. He’s one of the FUNDAMENTAL BEINGS. Now, that’s how it is in the comic books......." It's possible that SONY's Multiverse is using the "Web of Life and Destiny" aspect and not so much of the "Prism of many possible worlds" aspect that the MCU is using. This changes how we would interpret the conflict of the film. Again, I think the conflict will be resolved by joining forces and not further fighting but it's alot less clear cut that folks think.
Yes, I've heard of the "Web of Life and Destiny" before. I'm not too familiar with it, but I think it was explored in the 90s animated show and the game Shattered Dimensions. But I agree, Spider-Man is a fundamental pillar of any Marvel-related world. According to Miguel's understanding, being Spider-Man in their version of the multiverse requires him to go through certain events. Otherwise, Spider-Man is undefined and ceases to exist. Ceases to be the pillar that holds the universe together.
What's funny is when you drew the comparison between the trolley decisions and Miguel vs. Miles, I found that I was different between the two. I decide not to pull the lever, but side with Miguel. Probably because I view the two situations as fate vs. intervention instead of utilitarianism vs. deontology. With the trolley, the effect of not pulling the lever is the same whether you were at the control switch witnessing the trolley and deciding not to pull, or if nobody was there at all. Similar to Miguel's view of Spider-Man. The canon events are meant to be whether you like it or not, because without them, the results are not what makes Spider-Man.
To me...the biggest question is...what if Miguel is wrong? What if he's wrong about everything What if Miles is only the first step? Sometimes it takes a "step" back to see the whole picture Great video
Miguel is wrong but his heart is broken right now he can’t see the full picture he needs an actual Peter Parker cause that’s the only one who could change Miguel again that’s Canon in every comic story Miguel needs saving to also realistically Miguel could have finished Miles off long ago so he’s still kind of
When you think about it though, if Miles saves Jeff and Migs' theory is indeed true, Jeff is only saved temporarily; he would also die if the Multiverse crashes.
I hope parents can learn from the lesson of this and beyond the spider verse. Don’t push your kid down a path because that’s what you think is best for them. If you want your kid to be a lawyer or something & apart of the high society while also expecting nothing less you don’t understand the amount of mental stuff the child goes through when they can’t reach your expectations or they don’t want to do what you expect of them. imagine feeling if you don’t follow the life plan your dad set up for you because your passion is something else. I felt like if I didn’t reach my dad’s expectations I was worthless, I could never talk with my dad about what I wanted to do with my life because he already had plans for me and what I wanted didn’t align with his plan. The worry of will he accept my decision to choose my own path, that he wouldn’t accept it causing a permanent tear in our relationship. If my dad never set a plan for my life out & expected nothing less (he would say he didn’t expect me to follow his footsteps into the military it was pretty obvious that was far from the truth, I think he said it cuz he knew it’s kinda fucked up to “force” your own kid into the that specific carrier. Especially if it’s coming from a vet that has seen the horrors or war & obviously has some serious ptsd issues) I have nothing but respect for our military however as a “military brat” I saw what all that trauma has done to my father & I’d rather not put any of my future children through what I had to go through with my dad. It took years for our relationship to mend when things finally hit a breaking point. It broke me especially because of how hard I originally tried to build a relationship with my dad, I’d see him like once a year for the first 12 years of my life so I didn’t really know the guy until then.
I'm kinda new to the discussion so dumb question: Does Miguel think the universe/multiverse is deterministic? Is it deterministic in some way? Is it kept relatively deterministic by Kang (as shown in the Loki series) to keep things flowing relatively stably?
From my understanding,a perspective of someone in their early 40’s, when you’re teenager in through you’re 20’s you tend to be idealistic but by your late 30’s you talent to be a realist or conservative and pick your battles differently. This is how I looked at miles and Miguel’s point of view. Earlier I would have probably sided with miles but now it would depend on the situation
When I watched spiderverse, I sided with Miguel up until gwen's reunion with her dad where it's like "oh yeah, cause it's mile he can literally just ignore the consequences and save both" so my choice is Miles
#1: I don't think it was meant to be Miles Morales' fault that he became an anomaly, but the Earth-42's spider make him Spider-Man mistakenly. #2: The Spot (Dr. Jonathon) was the one who brought the Spider to bite him in his universe causing Miles Morales to become the anomaly and Spider-Man. But from the other side of Earth-42 Miles, he became the prowler instead of Spider-Man. #3: Miguel O'Hara thinks that Gwen let Miles inside of the Spider-Verse, but It wasn't her's fault because; one of them (Jessica Drew or Lyla) who opened up the portal at first causing Miles Morales' having the first entrance to the spider-verse which disrupted the cannon events. (He started following her in the other universe.)
Damn I thought somebody would comment this but bra, you actually sound like a weird but not bad version of miles morales. They way the video starts had me convinced I was rewatching the movie for a sec.
What if Miguel from the end of into the spider verse and Miguel from across the spider verse are 2 different versions of the character. Only because in the second movie he has a thicker accent. Same with Miles from universe 42
I don’t think that’s the case. I’m pretty sure they’re the same Miguel except they redesigned for the sequel. Would be crazy if you turn out to be right though lol.
@@Ranni I mean every other character has the same voice except for alt Miles and Miguel. Just seems like a weird choice when they showed Miguel in the end of into the spiderverse. Maybe I’m thinking way too much about it, but hey it would mean both Miles and Miguel are anomalies…
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i think what should happen in the third movie is that mile's dad does die but the plot twist is it wasnt supposed to die and miguel was wrong about it being a canon event
Good video. I believe the story is building up to make Miles decision an exception given what's known. Mostly for narrative, heroism, not giving up etc. I think Miguel is wrong to claim he knows that Miles anomaly is wrong. You could qualify that as fear of the unknown. He's also taking a conservative low risk approach. We can't totally quantify the risk but it is big and doesn't favor Miles from what is known. To be clear Miles is trying to flip the lever to risk many to save one. He can't not act he runs in first. Not very familiar with virtue ethics but it sounds like it would frequently take negligent actions. There is simultaneously a need for paradigm shifts but also trying to make them happen has losses.
As Montaigne says “Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know.” I don’t think Miles is an anomaly at all and I think Miguel is wrong in his perception of the world and I think we will see that in the part 2. I think Miguel misinterpreted why his universe collapsed. I also think it plays better for the story for Miles to be right and to be able to save his dad as thats a movie that gives hope and is encouraging rather than if Miguel is right.
I sort of find myself at a crossroads. I'm tempted to take the Vulcan view on the matter, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." But I have trouble emotionally with it. I guess I REALLY want Miguel O'Hara to be wrong.
I always thought this moral dilema seemed weird. If Miguel is right, then if Miles acts, his dad would die anyway. The whole Universe ends, including his dad, so the point is moot. Less a trolley problem, more a “pull this lever to stop the trolley but there is a 50% a nuclear bomb goes off anyway”. The only discussion here is if Miguel is even right. Miles basically assumed no, but Miguel assets he is right without good evidence. We know if you stay in another universe without a watch you cause damage, like in the first movie, and I assume that what happens to him. But he didn’t undo any canon events. Miguel HAD canon events, in his universe, but the other him in the other universe literally wasn’t Spider-Man. So by definition, he wasn’t fucking with canon. His whole theory is really shakey. We haven’t actually seen evidence that breaking spider canon actually does anything.
Just imagine a situation where your own daughter is dying, but you can get into another world in which she is alive. Then it turns out that because of your decisions, the whole universe died, and you were exposed as a good actor. Then you spend a few months perfecting teleportation technology, and then you spend a few more months raising an army against anomalies. Then they tell you that 2 parents and a teenager are a good option for soldiers of your army. Then an anomaly appears, which claims that he is normal and you tell him about the rules for destroying the universe. He says that he will save everyone, but you will explain to him that several people must die otherwise the WHOLE universe will be destroyed.But he doesn't listen to you and runs away. And then you are reassured by 2 idiots who drag 2 children with them on dangerous tasks
Ppl nvr talk about the feelings of any of the other Spidermen after they had their canon event and was later recruited later… I know I would feel some type of way knowing that this kid gets a chance to stop his event, but I was already powerless to prevent mine.
Very true. I hope they give more time for the other Spider-Men to express their feelings. I also don't know if it would be accurate to portray 99% of Spider Society siding with Miguel.
spider cat mourning the death of his kitty uncle whiskers is too hilarious of a visual to believe miguel’s yapping abt canon events. peter parked car is a car he can’t experience the canon either
The only problem with the the deontology point of view is that inaction is still action. You let 5 people die. You didn't chose to not make a decision. You're more guilty than if you were have chosen to only kill 1 person. Medicine is very similar. You do the greatest good for the most. You don't stand back and watch as more people die because your action would have killed less.
There is a dilemma that i dont see people taking about regarding the train and deontology. Inaction in itself is a conscious choice and an action. Turning the lever to have one person pass is the morally correct option seeing as your inaction will lead to death regardless.
Great video as always, but I think Miles will be fine because that's supposed to be his Uncle Ben moment right ? If so he already had that with his uncle Aaron and he kinda grew after that. That's why these moments are supposed to happen right ? Or I could be wrong lmao
Well, yes Miles has already had his "Uncle Ben" moment, but there are other parts of his story that need to happen, which according to Miguel is the death of his dad.
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Miguel is fascinating, purely because if you pay attention you'll notice that he isn't completely certain about the spider-verse at all. When Gwen says "I don't know how to fix this" at the start, he responds with "Yeah, well...join the club," before tossing her a watch. When he goes to follow Miles to his universe, he yells for somebody to "deal with Spot," not seeming to understand the threat he poses or even understanding that order would directly contradict the canon he's working so hard to protect. Catching Spot would be indirectly saving Jeff.
Miguel is both right and wrong. He's doing what he thinks is the best possible thing he can, but he doesn't understand nearly enough about the Spider-Verse and the canon to be making these decisions. He's winging it, the same way all the other Spiders are, and it really humanizes him. When Gwen asks him "Do you really know what will happen if he breaks the canon," Miguel shoots back "Do you want to find out?"
I think even he isn't certain whether or not the canon is what killed his daughter - he just decided it was because it would at least give an explanation to it. It's a rationale that helps him sleep at night, because if there's no explanation than it would torment him nonstop. Like "what could I have done to stop it from happening?"
Wow, great insight! Miguel is a brilliant character.
Yeah this is what I think too is the most obvious. He doesn't know what's going to happen, he just knows what HAS happened sucks. "Correlation does not equal causation" kind of thing
@@austincdemiguel unlike miles don't want to play with lives of trillions upon trillions of innocent people.
I think Miguel killed his variant in the other universe , so that he could have a family again … and then it all went south when he tried to fix the glitch problem
Damn that explanation was actually amazing but don’t you think miles is quite careless since he is acting off emotions rather truly understand that he could kill billions if he saves his dad. Even if it’s not certain, does that justify tampering with it having no knowledge of the outcome?
I think what miguel fails to realize is because miles is an anomaly, canon events do not apply to him the same way, hes literally the first anomaly left alone and alive, his canon events wont be like the other canon events if the spider society leaves him alone and stops trying to force theirs on him
if Miles is a spider man it would apply to him though. It's probably the spider bite that makes people follow their pre determined story lines
@@lorenzomizushal3980 I would agree with you there but the anomaly started because that spider wasnt supposed to bite him, so its forcing a destiny and cannon events that otherwise wouldnt happen if he got bit by a spider in his universe (this is atleast my understanding of it)
Actually nope, Miles is still Spiderman at the eyes of the Canon(of his own universe), because his universe didn't collapse and either Earth 42, things just pay out differently for both Miles's, but our Miles is now part of the Canon, let's just assume his universe is pretty ok and adapted himself to Miles's Existence as Spiderman, so, if a Earth recognizes you as Spiderman, you are doomed to suffer the same patterns of the other Spidermans, so nope, Miles is not free of the Canon, he's part of it
@@aliammar5031The spider is a multidimensional hunter dont ya know
He's already had a cannon event (2 if you count the spider bite) his uncle died
I have a theory. I think Miguel is right to an extent. I believe the catastrophe he faced was caused by his own meddling in his variant's universe instead of his own. I think Canon Events can be changed so long as the Spider-Man from that universe does the changing. I think Miles can save his dad, but he has to be the one to do it.
That’s… actually… could be true. I mean, it would explain the different spidermen in the first place.
However, one would first need to know the canon event to then change it.
Everything in the movie points out that you can only know and change the Canon Events through outside interfering. It happened to Pavitr thanks to Miles, and to Gwen because of her time in the Spider Society. So Miles has a chance of saving his dad, but this pretty much means that every Spider person that doesn't get to know about the multiverse is doomed to live through their tragic Canon Events without a chance of stopping them.
EXACTLY! I HAVE THE SAME THEORY AND I TOTALLY AGREE!
I believe this
Actually I believe the opposite. The meddling can be done as long as someone else is involved.
Pavitr's Universe Meddling will work because Miles did the saving.
Gwen's Universe Meddling worked because Miguel (unintentionally) put George Stacy on a collision path with Spider Woman's identity, thus putting him on the road to resigning and thus saving himself from certain death.
And Jefferson Davis will live. But not because Miles will do the saving. But because it is Gwen Stacy who will do the saving.
The first movie is about Faith - Stan Lee (It always fits, eventually), Jefferson Davis (I see this spark in you and it's amazing, I love you Miles), Peter Parker (It's a leap of faith Miles), May Parker (took you long enough). The movie ended on Peter trusting Miles to defeat Kingpin (not bad kid).
The second movie expands on Trust - Gwen trusts her dad with her identity, Rio trusts her son to look after himself, Hobie trusts Gwen after leaving the Spider Society, everyone trusts Gwen to join her in the crusade to save Miles. The movie ends with Gwen forming her own band to save Miles. And so, the third movie would be about the thing that's born from Faith and Trust.
Co-operation, inter-dependence.
But why? Because the point of canon events isn't to cause destruction. It's to cause change.
Miles got bit by a spider and changed. The spider's universe changed because of Spiderman's absence. Gwen and George both changed as individuals in response to the painful revelation. Miles changed further to become someone more resilient by not giving in to the pressure and deciding to do his own thing.
Miguel, however, escaped to his counterpart's universe. He stagnated. And thus he was forced to change by the laws of the multi-verse itself.
This is actully so underrated this video shows how miles just wasn’t told what to do, he told himself and the infinity of spider people that could go on forever.
This is essentially the trolley problem on a cosmic scale.
Except the train is about to run over one person about miles is trying to change it's direction to run over trillions of people.
@@JudgeHoldenUwUhe literally says cosmic scale
@@JudgeHoldenUwUinfinities
No
@@JudgeHoldenUwU except both the tracks contain that one person 💀
Miguel likely suffered from an incursion, they are created when someone is in the wrong universe for too long and it causes their original universe to collide with the one they are currently in.
"An Incursion occurs when the boundary between two universes erodes and they collide, destroying one or both entirely."
Then how can the spider society exist if incursions are a thing?
I dunno - the text of the first movie shows that Miguel likely experienced a tragedy caused by the collider from the first movie, but he BELIEVES that it was his fault, that HE was the cause - even though it wasn’t.
So, Miguel is basically a conspiracy theorist that assumes motives and intentions that aren’t necessarily there, as opposed to the possibility of coincidence or chance.
And the texts of the films bear this out, too.
@@traktor420That's a good question but I also think its because alot of spider people there are there part time and not all the time like miguel but thage just my headcanon 🤷🏽♂️
@@phastinemoon that would be correct if not for the fact that we saw pavitars universe collapsing
What I love is that this entire argument is the same one Miguel had with Peter in Edge of Time.
For those who aren't familiar, there's a game called Edge of Time where classic Spidey and 2099 Spidey team up to stop some time travelling shenanigan's from basically collapsing time. There comes a moment where Peter learns that Mary Jane will die, and Miguel immediately shoots down saving her because time is LITERALLY tearing itself apart and they can't afford to risk that for one person.
There's of course personal stakes here, but Peter makes a good point by basically calling Miguel out for not understanding what being Spider-Man means. That if you know someone is going to die and do nothing, that is fundamentally against what the idea of Spider-Man is. That there is no risk that's too great to just let someone die when you can actually do something about it.
It's understandable, given their backgrounds. Peter has time and time again suffered for his own inaction. His entire choice to become Spider-Man was because he chose not to step in. Plus, he lives in a time brimming with superheroes. He's actually a pretty small fish in a very big pond, so he CAN afford to go out of his way to help the little guy. Hell, during big earth shattering events, Spider-Man usually stays on the sidelines helping civilians while the heavy hitters duke it out.
At least in the comics, by 2099, there are no more superheroes. Miguel is pretty much all there is. He IS the one and only person responsible for the protection of his Earth. He can't afford to take risks when the fate of the world is his burden alone.
Whoa whoa by 2099 why is Miguel the only superhero? Everybody else died? The mutants? The X men? The avengers? Everyone? :o
@@rizwanzaman1793 The X-Men barely exist in 2099. There are maybe a couple of other heroes, but Miguel is the big deal.
@@mottom2657 so basically everyone retired or dead?
that’s actually pretty tragic makes me feel sad about earth-2099
Miles theme through the movie is “make 2 cakes.” You can have your cake and eat it too if you have two cakes.
Across the Spider-verse leaves us with 2 Miles. They will work together to save his father and save the multiverse (beat Spot). He will have his cake and eat it too
Wow, I didn't even think about the cake analogy. Good observation! But if you remember, both cakes ended up getting messed up in the film...
A privileged position.
lol i'm sorry but NO, cuz that 2nd Miles we met at the end of ASTV is literally EVIL and that dimension's version of the Prowler, remember?? evil Prowler Miles doesn't give a DAMN about good Mile's (Spider-Man) dad, hence when he (Prowler Miles) literally chained up Spidey Miles, mocked him, and said "YOUR dad, not mine" with an uncaring attitude. so this theory of yours is REALLY unlikely to happen bruh 😬🤷🏾♂️
Until you eat both and the universe collapses.
*Miguel is right.*
I mean the thing is that the ethical dilemma only really works if you take Miguel at his word. It's like you're doing the trolly problem, but Miguel is the only one whose actually seen the train tracks and you have to take him at his word that switching the tracks will save more lives than those who'll die. Now I'm not trying to say that I think Miguel is purposefully lying, but nothing we've actually seen in the movie seems to suggest that that Miguel's theory of canon is actually correct, at least in terms of the idea that breaking it destroys the world.
For instance the one big example we see happen in real time is when Miles saves Police Captain Seng and then the giant rift opens up. But as Miles quickly points out before getting shut down, that hole was clearly caused by the spot's meddling, yet Miguel attributes it directly to the breaking of canon instead despite the context. There could be some force that causes universes to collapse but it might have nothing to do with canon events.
For example I think a popular theory is that it has to do more with direct meddling with another universe's affairs. Simple swinging in and changing one or two things due to your presence isn't necessarily a big deal. But if you live in a universe for years and are constantly having effects on the course of events, then it stands to reason that you cause more and more instability, until eventually that universe can't handle it anymore. Thus it doesn't necessarily matter what happens in a given spiderman's universe, it only matters how much people affect other universes with their cross-dimensional travel. Ironically enough, Miguel could be causing the very instability he was trying to prevent by forming his interdimensional spider squad and constantly hopping all over the place. It would also explain why he experienced such a universal collapse as he took over his old life, and thus was causing tons of changes to that universe. Meanwhile something like the spider that bit miles only did that one thing and then was killed, meaning that while that one action had a big impact on that universe, it was still only one change and thus didn't create much instability. And in turn the Spider's home dimension of Earth-42 didn't experience any instability because all they did was lose some random spider, so no cross-universe contamination happened.
So yeah I mean I totally get how people agree with Miguel, saving one life is nothing compared to the countless billions that will die, especially when that would presumably include the life you're trying to save. But I am like 90% certain that Miguel is in some way completely wrong about his theories and that he's just trying to rationalize some way to force his own trauma onto others.
Wow, great comment. Yeah, from a recent video I watched, it does seem that Miguel's conclusion about why dimensions are falling apart is faulty. There's probably more to it than just Miles. It would be interesting to see how the sequel will resolve these questions.
Both Gwen and Miles directly ask Miguel about how he knows canon events are true in the movie, and for both he doesn’t give an answer. And hell, when Gwen asks him he responds with “wanna find out?” Implying that he isn’t entirely sure about it himself. It’s wrong for Miguel to force so much suffering onto other spider people over a theory he states as fact that even he himself isn’t entirely sure about
@@shagarumedic Him saying "wanna find out?" seems more sarcastic than him implying that he doesn't know/
The idea that people think Miguel is "The only one who's seen universes collapse and everyone else has taken him by his word and just runs with it." fails to really become an argument when we literally see that multiple Spider people were witnessing the destabilization of the universe Miguel tried to insert himself into. Peter B. Parker was even there and confirms it to both the audience and Miles.
It should be common knowledge by now that destabilizations of universes HAS been witnessed and IS a threat- a threat that Miguel is not making up, hence the reason why so many spider people have joined the collective. Miguel even mentions that they've tried to restabilize universes that have been disrupted and sometimes they're successful and sometimes they're not. Miguel isn't lying to anyone about the events happening, THEY ARE HAPPENING, why they're happening could be up to debate- but only to the audience because the spider society is only running off of their observed data i.e.
An anomaly- something or someone- disrupts the "cannon" event of a spider person's universe and that universe starts to destabilize until the anomaly is taken out.
let's even look at the beginning of the movie to lock this example in, when the trio are fighting the Renascence universe' Vulture there are several instances where objects glitched out in the art gallery, as the Vulture makes his way out of the gallery things get worse with even the building glitching out. At the end of the fight sequence Lyla even says something along the lines of "The anomaly is contained, universe is stabilized, the cannon is intact." I don't blame them for thinking the reason for the destabilizations and destruction of universes is because of that. it MAY not be, but they have no alternate data saying that it's not, all their data and experience is telling them that disrupting the events that happen in their lives will destabilize and destroy their universes and instead of trying to test that theory wrong like a bunch of psychopaths and risk countless of lives in the process they decide to play it safe and let things unravel naturally.
This has happened so consistently that you can't blame them for coming to the concussion that they have when they have over a year worth of data all pointing to the same conclusion- which is a reflection of real life where statistics and consistent findings will lead scientists, engineers, annalists, and so one to form a single conclusion with the data they've gathered.
It’s clear that Miguel has been doing this for a time with the other spider people. It’s confirmed that he even created the group before he broke a canon event. We saw in a flashback that Peter B Parker was with him trying to stop the collapse. I doubt they would turn Miguel into a villain because he is an established hero; turning him into villain would make a lot of people upset.
Perfect video. Miguel definitely wasn't a villain. Antagonist, but not a villain. Different ideologies, with no one choice being objectively superior to the other
instead of deontology I think the trolley problem is more a conflict of utilitarianism vs Kantianism. Miles isn't worried about moral right and wrong (deontology) so much as he refuses to abandon his principles (kantianism) even when threatened with a catastrophic outcome.
This basic rejection of forced moral choice actually echoes the climax of the first Sam Raimi Spider-man movie: Where green goblin tries to force spider-man choose between his personal love, mary jane and a literal trolley full of strangers. Toby Maguire Spider-man saves both.
This kind of goes against the general vibe of the early comics, which seem to bend towards the strictly utilitarian. Spider-man must always sacrifice his personal relationships and even personal responsibilities for the sake of his larger responsibility as spider-man. With great power comes great responsibility. If being spider-man means your close friends and family have worse lives, but tens or hundreds of lives are improved or saved, Spider-Man MUST make the sacrifice because to do otherwise would be selfish and irresponsible. If bringing a bad guy to justice means you lose your job, you lose your job. If stopping the bomb means you irreparably damage your relationship with the woman you want to marry, sucks to be you.
That was the general vibe of the comics and it also provided a lot of drama, which kept the story interesting and helped sell issues.
Kantianism will WIN
nah, MIles is just selfish. He'd rather damn the multiverse than be told what to do, damn other people than damn his father. Miles is an emotional teenager, irrational and only starting to be his own man.
Well like in fullmetal alchemist the law of equivalent exchange applies everywhere therefore something must be lost for something else to be gained. Miles just needs to let go despite how hard it might be for him
glad another saw the gobby reference in Miguel's set of choices... that sadistic lunatic! also tony stark and fear made Ultron... you sure that won't repeat again in spiderverse?
Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
@@lorenzomizushal3980imagine wanting to save your dad /s
Although imagine being told that you’re so important your life would have to be miserable or the universe gets destroyed. Pretty sure destiny is the bad guy here, not miles
I think the major issue with Miguel's view of Miles is that the canon event in question isn't really a willing conscious sacrifice that any Spiderman would have made without this meta canon event knowledge. Rather it's an observation of (almost?) every other universes Spiderman trying to save everybody they can, and ultimately not being able to succeed unscathed.
I would argue that Miguel's attempt to lock Miles in a cage for a few days is even more harmful to _Miguel's_ philosophy than letting Miles go try to "do both", and then ultimately fail because the universe wouldn't let him. If Miguel had his way, Miles wouldn't be there to witness the death, which was an important detail of the canon event as described, and even if Miguel brought him with as a prisoner just to witness, does Miles really learn the same lesson and become the same person as every other spiderman to experience that event?
Every occasion of the canon breaking that dooms the universe as Miguel argues takes place after the intervention of an outsider to that universe's canon, and if Miles' father dying is his own canon event he simply cannot be an outsider to it. As a little tangent, why would Miguel be afraid of Miles violating his own canon? Is Miles somehow that much more competent than every other spiderman that he might succeed by himself where every other spiderman was destined to fail?
That's all assuming that Miguel is 100% accurate with his description of canon events in the first place. His argument becomes even worse if he turns out to be wrong / lying in any way
Man, this was really informative and insightful. Yeah, as time has passed, Miguel's theories on canon events and the multiverse seem weaker.
I was thinking along those lines too. Keeping Miles in a cage does more harm than good, especially if Miles needs to be present for certain events for the canon event to even happen; Miguel could be indirectly preventing the canon and not know it.
Something I noticed about Miles and Miguel when it comes to how they treat the concept of Spider-man is that they both interact with it differently. Miguel treats being Spider-Man like a curse or a job. Something you're burdened with. He tells Miles it's a job or something he signed up for and everything about him is basically "It is what it is". Meanwhile Miles treats being Spider-Man like an obligation you get to make the decisions in. He believes that if you have the option to do something then you SHOULD do something. Spider-Man doesn't just let people die. Spider-Man doesn't accept fate as it is. No matter how many times he's hit he fights for what is right
Miguel also goes against what Peter b. parker told miles. Don't think about saving the world, think about saving one person.
And Miguel... Well you know. He's the total opposite. He thinks there needs to be sacrifices. Miguel goes against everything Spider-Man stands for and Ironically tells the one Spider-Man who understands it more than him that he *isn't* Spider-Man. Funny how that works huh?
save the many over the few and soon there will be few left; save the few over the many and that will get you there sooner; the best answer is to *make another cake* because there will always be another slice. spider-man was always an under-dog whichever way you write him... he ain't anyone but a nerdy super hero trying to get by both of his lives, sure he ain't perfect... but he still tries.
Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
Good observation. To Miguel, he says: “Being Spider-Man is a sacrifice”. Which is also an accurate description of our hero.
Thats what makes Miles a GREAT Spiderman. He goes against both options presented to him, but decides a third option to do his own thing to try and save both his dad and the multiverse
No Miles in 2 part is fucking garbage
I just hope they dont make the easy choice and make miles 100 percent right i want to be there somewhere in the middle
Totally agree!
Literally me
They still can make a well-executed easy choice.
I feel it will lean more in his favor as he is an anomaly but there's always sacrifices of being a hero and Miles will likely learn that, just not in a canon sort of way. It would be better Miles wasn't 100% right since he is pretty op to begin with. It'd make him more grounded. Think about it, not only is he Spiderman, he has Electric, Camouflage, and now he's an "anomaly" (where he has no canon strings attached like every other spidey). Miles needs something to keep him grounded and being 100% right wouldn't help imo. I feel like he will lose whatever it is in a non canon way.
@@RxRoninmiles knows about sacrifices that what i hate todays spiderman stories. They trying to teach a character a lesson that he/she *ALREADY* knows or in another word they keep telling them how their stories is supposed to go they keep telling them “venom is evil” “gwen always gonna die” “in order to get a new hero original hero should die ” “mj is only love interest for peter” to the point we lost the main point of the character the very humanity of the character is lost thats why miles quite is so lmpactfull by “nah amma gonna do my own thing” because he is not just telling this to miguel he also telling to *US* who keep telling the cannon events must happen. its the creators of the film calling modern wrlters to stop not everthing has to be have bad outcomes bad endings
5:44 that’s a great way to think about it because everything about the trolley problem is wrong, there shouldn’t have been a train since there was construction, the train should slam its breaks or blare its horn, the workers shouldn’t be completely oblivious to anything near them, and the person choosing shouldn’t be anywhere near either the lever nor the construction.
Side note: I don’t know if the creators meant to make it that way, but the spider came from another dimension and was glitching, but when it bit miles and overwrote his dna, he didn’t glitch, and I think it’s because the spider became part of miles’ story, his dimension, and the canon overwrote itself
I really hope Miles and Miguel end up in an alliance after they've both been proven right and wrong. My biggest fear for the third movie is that, if Miguel's argument is considered de facto wrong and Miles is exonerated without any more conflict between their ideologies, it'd undermine the struggle everyone else went through.
Thats the only thing im worried about
I completely agree.
Mmm…except Miguel IS incorrect.
But, of course - the movie COULD thread the needle and show that there’s no way Miguel could have KNOWN that he was wrong, and that he’s not BAD for being wrong.
There’s a way to do it… but Miles really isn’t wrong. He just isn’t. So that “maybe they’ll both see they were right AND wrong” is categorically off the table.
@@phastinemoonBruv having Miles just not be wrong would be the most boring resolution to the conflict. It could boil down to "le anomaly...le no consequences!" if it isn't handled with nuance. It could waste the magnificent tension already built up
@stefanoschincoa8410 tbh Miguel being wrong would be the most predictable outcome considering everyone hates him and Hobbie created an army to destroy what he built.
I see both of their perspectives as right and wrong but one thing I really hope happens in the sequel is that both Miles and Miguel see the errors of their ways and end up breaking every Spider Man/Woman's curse with both of their view points and philosophy in the end
While I do like the idea of Miles breaking this curse too, it would also be cool if the 'Spider Society' also ended up joing him too, if possible
Miguel is probably wrong but nobody really knows that or has definitive proof that it is wrong. For all anyone in the movie knows, Miles is rushing into the destruction of his universe. He has witnessed universes getting destroyed by disruption of canon events in Pavitr Prabhakar's universe and when Miguel showed him his daughter's universe getting destroyed and even after seeing this, Miles still is rushing headlong into the end of his universe. If Miles ends up saving his dad, the destruction of his universe would just end up killing him anyways so there really would be no point (Idk I might have missed something in the movie). Again, Miguel might be wrong but nobody knows that.
Miles also has no normal arguments- they are even worse than Miguel's
"You can't have your cake and eat it too"
Miles: Unless you make two cakes.
Later in the movie we see Miles unintentionally destroyed both cakes while being Spider-Man.
I don't know, this is a really complicated question that I'm looking forward to seeing how they handle it
There is a very quick glimpse of Spot killing countless Spider-Men when he ascends to his full potential before showing Jeff meeting his end.
Realistically, there is going to be casualties either way. I wouldn't be surprised if they played a bait and switch and ended up killing Rio instead since they were putting a lot of emphasis on her throughout.
This is what I predict too! I don’t think Jeff will die, but instead Rio. People bring up the cake scenario, but in that scene you are right! Both cakes ended up being messed up.
I loved it, great video.
hope miles and miguel can work together, tho Miguel was for sure trippin in the movie I don’t view him as evil, jus obsessively desperate
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video! Yeah, I don’t view Miguel as evil, he’s just believes that Miles will end up destroying the multiverse so I can see why he was so driven to stop Mile lol.
If it weren't for the fact that it's implied that Miguel is wrong, I'd reluctantly have to side with him (although I'd still heavily sympathize with Miles, and I do respect his philosophy that Spider-Man should try his best to save everyone, which is true and a genuinely consistent part of that identity).
I think that my more logical nature makes me lean toward Miguel's side. But after thinking about it, I ended up rooting for miles. Seeing him try his hardest to accomplish what seems impossible is just so admirable to me.
The problem I have with movies/anime that do this is often time they make the person that make this choice somehow able to toss away an cons and have them have the best of both worlds. While that is great no one has to lose, it kinda makes the whole things seem much less impactful as the MC always make it out unharmed. I really want it to be if they go this route and he somehow manages to save his father while not destroying everything Mighel still see him as too much of a risk to join the spiderverse as his actions to go against the canon, while it didn't collapses his verse due to his abnormality, would could still cause the undesirable effect to canon verses. I might get hate for this view though.
isn't that how spider man stories go? great power great responsibilities, and great sacrifices and all that
I completely agree with you. I hope the sequel shows that Miguel is right in some regard--that Miles' actions have consequences. I think it would diminish Miles' character and the Spider-Man identity, if he was able to have his cake and eat it too. For the sequel, I have a prediction that Miles will be able to save his father, but his mom, Rio, will be the one that dies.
Spider-Man stories always try to make it look essential that their needs to be sacrifice. But Spider-Verse is twisting these tropes, so this is a case where it does work because of the material it’s pulling it from.
@@Ranni could his roommate (Ganke) die instead?
I would compare this dilemma with Peter having to sacrifice May for the city in Spider-Man PS4 because of the devil's breath virus, and Peter had to choose between duplicating and spreading the antidote for the city, or giving it to his aunt. I think allowing his dad to die for the sake of all life is the Spider-Man move. He'd hate it, but it would be the right thing to do. That being said, I would hope Miguel would lose his job as the leader of the spider society due to his handling of Miles.
Originally, from the trailers of Across the Spiderverse, I believed Miles would be selfish and trade the multiverse for his dad. I wanted him to choose a literal infinite amount of life thoughout the multiverse, over his dad's. That way he and his mom alone are the ones who suffer, and no one else.
But this video made me think of another option. Instead of allowing his father or the multiverse to die, he sacrifices his own life. He adds himself to the equation. And since the troly problem is set in stone and Miles being Spider-Man is an anomaly... why not make a third option? Someone will die, but it doesnt have to be the multiverse or his father. Yes, that might mean Miles would die, but that's what Peter would do. I don't think Sony has the balls to kill off Miles, fans would flip. But it would fit the values of the character.
When Peter died in the ultimate comics, fans were furious, but it was beautifully done. And his death was permanent. Something that rarely occurs in comics. He died protecting his family and his friends. It was noble. Miles could do that.
Or maybe Prowler Miles would sacrifice himself for his parallel self's dad. Personally I think this is a little too convenient and lacks balls, because now they can keep making Miles movies or have him in other sony animated spider films, but it might work idk.
Sorry for the long comment.
Well put comment and succinct as well but one correction-unless I’m wrong and feel free to correct me 😅-but 1610 Peter Parker is alive and with the Ultimate Universe coming back he very well might see him again unless he’s still vacationing with MJ who knows where.
Miguel did try to talk it out first but miles didn't listen. If the scales where as big as they are I would act the same as Miguel did.
@@keondesouza9010I don't know if they'll bring peter back in the ultimate invasion book or whatever it's called, but the 1610 peter does technically come back through a clone (one that actually looked like him) and then left NY with either Gwen or MJ.
I think a heroes death is noble & good but not very well received to essentially martyr a 15 year old black kid for a cops life (even if its his dad ) 🤐
@@austincde Sorry since you obviously weren't replying to me, but I think that if anyone did have an issue with a hero sacrificing themselves to save someone, simply because that hero is a minority and that "someone" is a cop, then it's their problem.
Just to be clear, this isn't directed at you and I'm not trying to change how that hypothetical person feels.
I think a good thing to realize is that, he's already had a cannon event. Miles had his uncle died in his own arms. Despite what everyone is saying how he needs to let his dad die, he dosen't really need to. Aaron in his universe was a canon event, and he thinks he can save everyone. This I agree with, not only has he experienced a canon event, but looking back at the first movie, he's rebuilt the connection with his father after being bit and having the spark of just keep going. This is why i think Miles can save the universe or multiverse, because he has already had that tragic event that defines spidey for who he is.
While I overall do side with Miguel O'Hara in this argument, I also do believe that since Miles is an anomaly… Cannon events may not apply to him in the same way. That argument is still open, and I can't wait to see how they resolve this issue in "Beyond the Spider-verse"
“You can’t think about saving the whole world you have to think about saving one person.”
I think if Miguel is correct about the consequences of Miles’s actions, I’m with Miguel. How would you like it if some random kid sacrifices your entire universe and existence so he can do his own thing and save his dad, who will die anyways. But most people think Miguel is partially wrong, which I’m inclined to agree with.
I have to disagree because it’s just like spider man said in edge of time if you know someone life is in danger and you sit there can do nothing then you don’t know the first thing about being spider man and that’s it’s what miles is doing and miguel is still doesn’t agree
@@doctorx2307 so what do you do after you get up, stop them from getting killed, and then your universe, including them, is destroyed anyways?
@@doctorx2307 I mean the issue is that if miguel is right, you will only delay Mr Morales's deah and cause Mrs Morales, Ganke, and many other innumerable people to die too.
@@doctorx2307ı understand both sides ı agree with miles since because of a limited data tell me your father needs to die ı would do the same thing as miles but in other hand ı agree with miguel since we know something cause universe to collapse we dont know why but it happens and we cant really test the theory because well we are not lunatics and since we dont know what gonna happen if a anomaly like miles succed so playing safe is best way this more like a luck game for the both sides both could be wrong or right
@@doctorx2307what about in insomniac where Peter chooses to save everyone instead of aunt May?
Miguel is objectively right, but it's more likely something else is causing the collapse
Cuz this topic is too serious to actually stick with in these types of movies
Miguel likely suffered from an incursion, they are created when someone is in the wrong universe for too long and it causes their original universe to collide with the one they are currently in.
@@thedoglovinggamer5825If incursions are true than how tf is possible that the spider society can be all in 1 Universe
@@tuvergalarga6144i think that wath they are wearing or something like that makes them stable since we see that without that item they start effected by glitches
Miguel's reasoning is pretty sound in general here, but the course of action he's taking here is not any better than Miles' plan even under his own assumptions. He specifically said that the canon event in question took place "during a battle with an archnemesis," and to hold Miles here during the time that battle should take place is just as much, if not more, of a violation of the canon event than Miles going there and trying to "do both." Every other Spiderman who went through that event without knowledge of canon events would have tried to save everyone, and ultimately failed because Spiderman can't be everywhere at once to save everyone and stop their archnemesis at the same time.
Noone told Pavitr that he needed to let Inspector Singh die, at least as far as I could tell, but it would've happened without outside intervention anyway because under Miguel's theory that's just how the canon should play out. The same logic should apply to Miles, who should be allowed to play his role in his own story, and without any other spider people there to intervene, it would likely play out the same way. Instead, Miguel opts to pull Miles out of his own canon story, and completely disregards any consequences that may have on that universe's canon.
@@bluescience9022he corpse of 42’s spider has been in spot’s lab for over a year though and no incursion happened
To me what I think Across the spiderverse is about is how Spider-Man’s story is reiterated. We expect more or less the same iterations of uncle ben dying, an aunt may like figure, and Peter fulfilling his responsibilities. But to me, Miles arc is a commentary on how while those elements are important, it’s better to try something different and leave it to fate to see how life (or in a meta sense, a story) plays out. That’s just how I see it though.
One thing I also remembered is when Dr. Strange tells MCU Spider Man “Their Sacrifice means more than Their Lives.” When Peter was determined to turn the Villains good. Then changed his own story with Goblin killing Aunt May and tried to kill MJ. And another part at the end of the movie in no way Home. To save the world from the crisis of Peter’s identity he had to let go of those he loved, his friends Ned and MJ and Happy.
People be saying there is a way for Miles yo figure out some kind of plan to save his dad and the universe. But he doesn’t know that. He’s just going to rush in and hope for the best not thinking about what happened the other times before. He doesn’t know about all different theories he’s just being reckless and dangerous and not thinking it through.
I think Miles is right. He sees both choices as right and wrong but he tries to do both and that’s good because not only is he trying but he’s also trying to find balance in it as Spider-Man’s job is not to actually fight villains but to help people, not kill them.
That's right.
Then again his actively risking the lives of billions trying to save his dad, he doesn't know how canon work and basically gambling that "could" save everyone. Voiding the most important part of being spider man "responsibility" cause you can't convince me that gambling lives on a hantch is a responsible thing to do in that situation. At least make it so that miles actually thinks on what's his risking.
I don't fully support Miguel either however his was Is more "safe" than miles
What's important is not standing by and allowing someone to suffer or die because you do nothing if don't get that you don't get the first thing about being Spiderman
-Peter(Edge of time)
Miles: a guy who wants to save his dad but lets the universe die even many people.
Miguel: let one person die but many people and the universe will be saved.
I'd love to see Miles and Miguel fight together against the spot in the final movie :D
Yeah! That would be epic!
Criminally underrated love your sonic video as well cant wait to see more of u
Thank you! Expect more philosophy/analysis videos in the future!
Really well made and thought provoking video.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
Some of Miguel’s attitude is relatable to me. I have had preferences and I wondered about things as if my life’s a story. On the other hand, like Miles, I’m an artist and I can relate to the moral values.
I think that the "unraveling in mumbatten" was the spots doing and not then canon event it has the same texture if a spot Portal as well, and i also think that it is canon for miles to break the canon, someone else in the comment section of this video also said that since Miles in an abnormality, breaking canon will probably not apply the same way since he isnt supposed to even exist and i totally agree.
Amazing video very deep and beautiful love your philosophy content
Thank you! Expect more!
@@Ranni you’re welcome
Miguel knows nothing, or is the Prowler of Earth 2099.
In Spot's big "I made you and you made me" speech, we see that the spider from Earth-42 was supposed to bite Miles, AKA the Prowler from Earth-42, but instead it ended up in Earth 1610 and bit that Miles, so Miles is not really an anomaly since there was always supposed to be a Miles Morales Spiderman.
Also, the universe Miguel thought he destroyed, those glitches are the same ones we saw in "Into the Spider Verse." The universe Miguel thought he destroyed was actually destroyed by an Incursion, which happens when two Universes collide with one another.
In addition, when the black hole appeared in Earth 50101, Miles correctly indicated that it was one of Spot's holes, based on the big black hole and the black strings shooting out at the sides and contracting.
These pieces of information makes me question if Cannon Events are real, if Miguel is stupid, or if he is actually lying.
The lying part also connects with the fact that Miguel was portrayed many times in green and purple, the prowler colors. And also Miguel can't stick to walls. So it is also possible that Miguel is a Prowler pretending to be a Spider hero.
Also worth mentioning that they’re trying to stop MILES from saving HIS father. They’re trying to stop a Spider-Man from his respective universe from saving a loved one from that same universe. The logic falls apart when you compare it to Miguel’s experience. Plus of course, a comment here mentioned how Miguel’s theory is likely faulty because it based more on time rather than the event itself. All to say, I’m like 95% sure that Miguel’s theory is super wrong and he’s gonna get proven wrong in BTSV.
I think a theory is, this Miguel was Prowler in his dimension, and used to work for Alchemax.
Upon his family's unfortunate passing away in some accident, he used the portal technology to specifically search for a Universe where he d*es, but his family lives, so that he can take his de*d self's place.
The other him, also worked for Alchemax, and due to some rivalry or something, he was k*lled, one night when he was returning from office. The cannon event was that, after Miguel's d*ath, police would have investigated the company, accidentally finding Kingpin's collider, and temporarily shutting it down
We've seen how the collider, if gone wrong, could make Universes collapse. Thus, Miguel's d*ath, was a cannon event, that would've saved that Universe...
But since, this Miguel, replaced the d*ad one, no investigation was required, thus, police never shut down the collider, and Kingpin went ahead with his experiment, and accidentally merged the 2 Universes, which led to its collapse
Ever since then, this Miguel is *obsessed* with cannon events
One explanation that I came up with (though take it with a grain of salt as I haven't seen the movie) is that it was some sort of "divine punishment" that caused that world with Miguel's family to collapse.
The way I see it is that the multiverse or some other higher power saw Miguel was neglecting his duties as Spider-Man in his own universe for selfish reasons, and as punishment, that universe was destroyed in an attempt to teach Miguel a lesson, one that he might learn in Beyond the Spider-Verse.
Poor Miles has to save his dad.
Miguel needs to meet OG spiderman 2099. Original flavor Miguel had no loved ones death. He took on the responsibility ecsuse he had no other choice.
this explains both sides so well.
Finally a good analysis that is unbiased to either side
The one thing I don't get is wouldn't Uncle Aaron's death already prove that Miles cant escape the "Destined Spider-Man Canon" and has already suffered through it?
True. But I do feel that since Miles is an anomaly the rules don't apply to him normally compared to the other Spider-Men.
@@Ranni but didn’t that rule kinda apply to him tho? m.th-cam.com/video/SKJ1fiWfuMI/w-d-xo.html
I agree, that confuses me too! He saw his uncle die and on top of that he saw his universe spiderman die 😭 its already too much for him
Honestly, I see way more evidence for Miles' case than Miguel's, especially after seeing people on TH-cam pointing out some pretty big errors in Miguel's logic.
2 deaths, only spiderman in his universe, taking responsibility. I don't see anything wrong with Miles' universe.
@@ChrisParayno I... don't understand what you're trying to say here.
if into the spider-verse was anyone can wear that mask, then across is only you define the mask and what matters. so excited for what then next one will bring. p.s really enjoyed your video great work!
Miles because O’hara blames Miles for something that wasn’t even his fault. He didn’t want to get bit by that spider from another dimension, that was Kingpin’s fault.
It’s tricky bc WHAT made 42 spider get to our Miles universe in the first place? Hopefully it dives into that in BYTS but as far as I know that is now the new canon event but it’s very sad bc that universe in the end has no Spider-Man no one to save them when original miles already had the perfect Spider-Man/Peter Parker
So in a way Miguel is just blaming Miles existence ppl say Miguel is the actual anomaly but that’s just so untrue he’s the future LITERALLY the most important/strongest version of Spider-Man besides Ghost Rider/Cosmic Spider-Man
Beautiful video! You’re a great narrator and your voice is very soothing. I actually hate philosophy, but you made it enjoyable to listen to. 😁
THE CHANNEL IS GROWING!!! - Dexter
The Trolley Problem is different from Miguel's POV, He isn't asking Miles to pull the lever and kill one person but asked not to pull the lever and that will kill everyone including the one he's trying to save,
Spider Society had experience and were used to dealing with this for about a year, sometimes they were successful sometimes they were not, so why would they trust some guy who didn't know about this until a few hours ago to figure this out.
This one hard, but I understand Miguel’s choice between saving one person and saving the entire multiverse. Miles wants to do both , he didn’t want his father to died. So what if he add himself to the equation?
This reminds me of that question at the start of Hunter x Hunter. It was something like if you could only save your son or your daughter which would you choose? And the answer was silence because there is no true right answer in a situation like that, but even after they passed the test Gon couldn’t stop thinking about it because what If something like that actually happened?
Man, I've forgotten about that.
Spider-Men live to suffer and we must keep to that trend for the sake of relatability.
I always thought miles already went through his canon when his uncle died? But his dad needs to die too?
I guess there are multiple canons for each Spider-Man.
I do think it's a bit funny that Miguel didn't see any objections to permitting Hobie to join, given that ... well, anarchism is not inherently anti-utilitarian, since anarchism is about politics while utilitarianism is about morality, but it is generally going to be at odds with where Miguel actually takes things, i.e. having an authority figure try to force someone to hit the trolley lever against their will.
I assume Miguel must've just thought it was, like, an aesthetic.
This video is absolutely amazing
Thank you!
Another great video, dude🔥
Thanks man! Appreciate it!
the doctrine of double effect has one more core component that often gets left out. not only the action has to be done with good intentions and the resulting good must be greater than the harm, but the action itself needs to be good in itself even though in this set of circumstances it produces some harm.
for example, if you're making food and that takes some time which makes your kid a bit hungry because he has to wait for food for a bit longer, that's a negative but an unintended consequence of an otherwise good action of preparing food.
another example is saving a person from drowning. real cpr almost always ends up in a cracked rib or two, but that's an unintended consequence of an otherwise good action (saving a life).
without this component of the action needing to be good in itself the whole thing just collapses into ends justifying the means. for example, an idea gets thrown around in the movie "we wouldn't be who we are if it weren't for these tragedies.". taken to its logical conclusion, you could even justify causing tragedies if it meant building a strong character. because what's one life if you're gonna cause a person to save thousands?
see how it's so easy to confuse consequentialism/ends justifying the means with the doctrine of double effect when you remove that core component?
I think the situation with Miguel is the "everything is possible" argument.
Sure, its all possible, but not always likely.
"Is it worth the risk?" Is the question Miguel's character posits. Its all fun and games till we find out Miles can't do everything... then its a whole other level of self reflection.
I can think of 2 ways to break down this problem:
1- The Angra Mainyu Wish Paradox - Fate/Zero -
The Apocalypse happens and all of humanity is reduced to a population of 1200 and are forced to voyage the seas on 2 ships.
1 ship has 500 people on it and the other has 700. As they voyage a disaster causes both ships to begin sinking. You (or in this case Miguel or Miles), are the only one with the knowledge and skills to repair the ships, but there's only time to save 1. So which ship do you save? For this example let's say you chose the 700. When you do that, the ship of 500 captures you and forces you to fix their ship first. What do you do? To follow the original riddle, you fight your way back to the 700 ship, and fix it, but the 500 die. Eventually the remaining 700 decide to split up between 2 new ships: 400 and 300. Once again the ships, meet disaster and begin sinking just like last time, which do you save? The outcome is the same. 300 who tried to force you to fix theirs first die. And thus... you saved 400, but unknowingly, you let 800 total die. That's the logic Miguel's philosophy follows. For all the lives he's sacrificing to do what he thinks is saving more, it still adds up to countless corpses just to maintain a status quo. It's also the trap Miles would fall into without realizing it since he too is wrong. You cannot save every life and win every battle all the time. The second you think you can you set yourself up for nothing but tragedy, regret, sorrow, and failure. That's the flaw of Miles' philosophy.
The second way of explaining is that above all else, I believe the 2 highest desires of humanity that even surpass food, sex, safety, drink, shelter, hopes, dreams, etc... Freedom and control.
Freedom - limitless possibilities and choices. All options available.
Control - the ability to actively affect the outcome of all choices so that all the outcomes are equal to or surpassing your desired results.
Miles leans too far towards freedom.
Miguel embodies control.
Both are wrong when taken to an unbalanced extreme.
Miles would inevitabily fail to save one or both ships while acting to save both alone.
Miguel would follow through with saving the ships with more on them and letting the few die while not realizing the costs.
The solution is something I came up with myself: No one can carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, nor should they be dumb or arrogant enough to try (Even Jesus had his apostles). To save the ships, I would have all those on board form chains of communications between each ship to pass instructions between the ships in real time so that both ships can be repaired and saved simultaneously. Do I expect this to work perfectly? No. But is it worth a shot and high odds of success compared to trying to do it all alone? Yes.
They have have an entire army of Spider-beings with the ability to cross into alternate dimensions freely. Yet all they do is sit around twiddling their thumbs to maintain an algorithmic status quo.
They have the potential to balance freedom and control. Yet as they are neither can.
but isn't your solution just a variation of miles's plan?
if Miles had more people siding with him earlier, he WOULD have accepted help, but no one did until the end of the movie when the spider-people slowly started doubting Miguel's side
Miles never said he would do it and it HAD to be alone, nor he would've tried to just recklessly save his father and f*ck the multiverse, he simply wanted to try to do both and to find a way to do so. He even tried to have anyone backing him up during the argument ("spider-man ALWAYS-" / "what about your dad? isn't he a captain?") but then he realized not even those who he thought would support him sided with him ("not always..." / "yeah...").
The spider-society SHOULD be trying to help him do both in any way they could, specially since most spider-man are intelligent people. This would allign more with "trying to help both ships through communication" idea, but in this situation, the people on the ship simply doesn't want you to even TRY to help both.
Your solution is exactly what Miles wants to do, instead of pulling the lever to one side or another like Miguel or instead of, let's say, "run and try to warn the workers, before realizing it's too late and it was an irrational solution" like you suggest he would, he wants to do the equivalent of "baking 2 cakes", which is finding a solution to save both the multiverse and his father, he doesn't want to "return with two messed up cakes" again (losing both in the process)
@mrkyurem5499 Close, but no. Gwen was the one who assembled a band to try to help Miles and go against Miguel.
Miles himself was never asking for them to help him save his dad per say. He was asking why they would each be OK with sacrificing someone THEY cared about if they knew that same someone was going to die. None of them like the idea but came to terms with it under Miguel's plan of maintaining the status Quo. They don't genuinely KNOW if what happened to Miguel will happen every time. (The laws of physics wouldn't allow it to happen that exact same way every time anyway, but none of them thought of that). Then when nobody seemed to side with him he took off to do it alone. Key: alone. He thrust himself right into the idea of trying to save both ships while taking all of it on himself, and thus, both ships would sink. There's no way he can take Spot alone, but he's stupid enough to try anyway perhaps even knowing it could lead to his death. Miles is still under the misguided and dangerous notion that heroes always win, good always triumphs, a super hero will always save the day. Life doesn't work that way no matter how much we wish otherwise.
Gwen is the one implementing my plan. She sought the others to go help Miles. They are all going to go fight Spot alongside Miles to really see if they can save both ships. However, I wouldn't bet on all of them surviving. Someone is going to die in the next movie. That much is clear. Otherwise, this whole buildup means nothing because the message turns to "Everything will be fine. Good always wins! Kumbayah!"
Recall how the original Peter Parker from Miles" universe seemed very happy with his life as Spiderman despite everything. Compare that to Miles who was struggling and feeling completely alone since he couldn't actually open up with anyone except the Spider people he had met a year prior but were gone. He later finds out they had every chance to go see him but didn't and thus he sought to go back to his world by himself. But now things get interesting... he encounters the embodiment of what that line of thinking leads to: Prowler Miles. Yeah that Miles has his uncle but at the cost of his father and clearly that Miles lives with a very broken outlook. Due to what? Loss. Failure. Isolation. Unwilling to help even another version of himself. Think about how twisted one has to be to reach that point but think how not unlike Miles that sounds given what he did to get to that universe.
Miguel meanwhile still needs his outlook truly tested and realize his mistaken outlook would also sacrifice countless lives to save countless others. Maintaining a status quo eternally is also something that cannot be done indefinitely.
@@Kamina.D.Fierce You have great arguments, i'll give you that (not joking)
But in my pov, the argument scene when he tries to reason with everyone by showing how being okay with countless deaths (just to maintain a status quo that they don't even know is true) sounds ridiculous also serves as a confirmation that no one wants to help him
Literally no other spider-person, not even his friends, had the balls to even argue agaisnt Miguel's ideas. The notion of Miguel being wrong only clicked when they saw Miguel literally hurting Miles to force him to let his father die, pretty much invalidating his identity as spider-man AND sending Gwen back home (which for her character at that moment in the story could be considered cruel) because she DARED to try to de-escalate the situation (by talking to Miles like a human being) and just ASKED him if he is sure of everything he says.
That is the only reason Gwen was able to form the band: Miles dared to go agaisnt Miguel first and managed to escape (also Gwen's own banishment contributes to it).
Miles has no way of getting help from anyone. He didn't want to carry the whole world on his shoulders, but in the end he HAS to or else no one is going to save his father for him or even want him to do so himself. He is so desperate for help that he begs Prowler Miles to let him go, but not even himself seems to want to help him.
If he hadn't reminded them of the idea that spider-man shouldn't let people die just for the sake of it that Gwen was able to form the band, otherwise they would, if Miles actually believed Miguel, just go on with their original plan of stopping Spot but not interfering in Miles's canon.
I think Miles isn't acting irrationally, even if on paper it sounds like he is. He is desperate and alone, but he wants to stay true to what means being an Spider-Man: he's going to try to save everyone or die trying.
Does it mean that by going alone, like he would if Gwen's band weren't to be formed, he would be able to save both? Of course not, that is exactly what all spider-man try before losing the police captain, and i think knowing about it beforehand wouldn't help as much (really, trying to convince his father not to go out on the streets during a situation where the entire city is at risk wouldn't work), and if he were somehow able to save his father, he wouldn't be able to stop Spot on his own anyways (actually, just as a side note, does Miles realize that him trying to break canon or not, the spider-society is going to try to stop Spot anyways? I think so, since that's what he saw in his vision of the future) and could even die trying, but that's still staying true to spider-man's self-sacrifice in some way.
So, yeah, you're right about Miguel: by trying to stop Miles from breaking canon, he would be breaking it anyways by not letting him actually be there (since he supposedly has to be fighting spot and learn a lesson from his police captain's death, which would be "you can't save everyone", to fulfill canon). He is putting Miles's universe at risk anyways by trying to save it.
Your solution, which you say is Gwen's solution at the end, is simply impossible for Miles by that point. So even if this idea works on paper, it only works if everyone else agrees to it: in your ship example, it only works if the ship that kidnapped you agreed to trying to help both instead of selfishly forcing you to only save their ship (in Miles's case, that ship is the multiverse and the kidnappers are the spider-society, they want to force him not to help his father, aka the second ship)
"Nah, Imma do my own thing"
*Blows up the train*
LMAO
Well considering that in a interview they said the script was changed to spite people who refuse to see Miles as Spider-Man, I'm expecting Miles just will be completely correct. After all the canon events don't line up perfectly even with the main Peter Parker from 616 and since its tied to the MCU the real answer is more likely to be incursions. As for the debate itself I'm neutral. I've gone back and forth on the situation when it is brought up in video games as the context can change the whole equation.
What those creators and others who trash on that group don't understand is those people don't see Spider-Man as a title, but a extension of Peter. So when you say anyone can be Spider-Man, to them you're saying anyone can be Peter Parker, which can never be the case. Honestly the first movie made more ground in changing minds than this one by making Miles his own man (GodzillaMendoza does a great video on how Miles used to suck) while not bringing down any of the other Spider-people down to prop him up. (showing Peter and Miles coexisting was also a step in the right direction) Affecting the comics for the better and now Miles is a great addition to the Marvel cast. All this one did was strengthen the backlash against Miles. Oh well, two steps forward, two steps back.
On the other hand most people don't know that the Ultimate comics in general tend to be bad and so some people are generally talking about the quailtiy of those books instead of just Miles himself. (shrugs)
Yeah, I'm not an avid comic book reader, but I have heard of Miles being pretty boring. It was was really Spider-Verse that brought new life to the character and made him distinct from Peter Parker. I see your point that the mantle of Spider-Man is so intrinsically linked to Peter that any deviation from Peter's story is seen as disrespecting the mask. But when it comes to the canon events, I think it's less to do with specificity of how things pan out, but the event as a whole. Spider-Man will suffer and its part of his story. It may look different depending on the Spider-Man you're looking at but they all suffer to an extent. You may be right in that Miles will be written as completely in the right in the next movie, but I hope that's not the case. I hope the movie shows that suffering and loss is a part of life and its part of what makes someone a hero.
7:14 *fly octo fly starts playing*
I think Miguel and Miles are both "right" but not for the reasons most think and it's not the movie's fault if we do not understand.
See....this trend of Multiverse stories started with INTO THE SPIDERVERSE..which is a SONY movie based on Marvel comics.
But since then most of the other Multiverse stories we have seen since have been in the MCU which are Disney movies and shows based on OTHER Marvel comics.
Now in most cases when talking about the multiverse it's an infinite series of worlds that diverge from one another via billions of choices and paths taken and not taken. Anything is possible and you may exist or not exist in certain worlds or be radically different if you do.
However there is the concept of the "Web of Life and Destiny" which is rooted into the Spiderman mythos. It's complicated, convoluted as hell and a really "woo woo" concept from early aughts Spiderman comics that leaned more into the metaphysical.
But here is the director of Morbius on the subject in an interview last year trying to explain what went wrong and the post credit scene. Bold emphasis mine
” ...But the idea of having different timelines was something that was, for me, introduced within the movie universe with Into the Spider-Verse. When we were talking about making the movie, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse had just come out and it was a huge success. I told the guys, I said, “This is super common among comic book readers.”
"...Exactly. I think it’s a meeting of those… because in THIS world, Spider-Man exists. In all the different Marvel timelines, you have a Spider-Man, it’s a TOTEM. In the Marvel Universe, what you say is that you have to have a Spider-Man in each universe for it to function. He’s one of the FUNDAMENTAL BEINGS. Now, that’s how it is in the comic books......."
It's possible that SONY's Multiverse is using the "Web of Life and Destiny" aspect and not so much of the "Prism of many possible worlds" aspect that the MCU is using.
This changes how we would interpret the conflict of the film.
Again, I think the conflict will be resolved by joining forces and not further fighting but it's alot less clear cut that folks think.
Yes, I've heard of the "Web of Life and Destiny" before. I'm not too familiar with it, but I think it was explored in the 90s animated show and the game Shattered Dimensions. But I agree, Spider-Man is a fundamental pillar of any Marvel-related world. According to Miguel's understanding, being Spider-Man in their version of the multiverse requires him to go through certain events. Otherwise, Spider-Man is undefined and ceases to exist. Ceases to be the pillar that holds the universe together.
What's funny is when you drew the comparison between the trolley decisions and Miguel vs. Miles, I found that I was different between the two. I decide not to pull the lever, but side with Miguel. Probably because I view the two situations as fate vs. intervention instead of utilitarianism vs. deontology. With the trolley, the effect of not pulling the lever is the same whether you were at the control switch witnessing the trolley and deciding not to pull, or if nobody was there at all. Similar to Miguel's view of Spider-Man. The canon events are meant to be whether you like it or not, because without them, the results are not what makes Spider-Man.
To me...the biggest question is...what if Miguel is wrong? What if he's wrong about everything
What if Miles is only the first step?
Sometimes it takes a "step" back to see the whole picture
Great video
Miguel is wrong but his heart is broken right now he can’t see the full picture he needs an actual Peter Parker cause that’s the only one who could change Miguel again that’s Canon in every comic story Miguel needs saving to also realistically Miguel could have finished Miles off long ago so he’s still kind of
When you think about it though, if Miles saves Jeff and Migs' theory is indeed true, Jeff is only saved temporarily; he would also die if the Multiverse crashes.
In the movie miles’s dad tells that he isn’t captain yet he will be one the next day. So saving him shouldn’t be a problem.
I guess we will have to wait and see in the sequel.
Edge of time tackled this problem quite well as well lol.
The way I see it Miles will have a canon event but his Dad won’t be the one to die
I hope parents can learn from the lesson of this and beyond the spider verse. Don’t push your kid down a path because that’s what you think is best for them. If you want your kid to be a lawyer or something & apart of the high society while also expecting nothing less you don’t understand the amount of mental stuff the child goes through when they can’t reach your expectations or they don’t want to do what you expect of them. imagine feeling if you don’t follow the life plan your dad set up for you because your passion is something else. I felt like if I didn’t reach my dad’s expectations I was worthless, I could never talk with my dad about what I wanted to do with my life because he already had plans for me and what I wanted didn’t align with his plan. The worry of will he accept my decision to choose my own path, that he wouldn’t accept it causing a permanent tear in our relationship. If my dad never set a plan for my life out & expected nothing less (he would say he didn’t expect me to follow his footsteps into the military it was pretty obvious that was far from the truth, I think he said it cuz he knew it’s kinda fucked up to “force” your own kid into the that specific carrier. Especially if it’s coming from a vet that has seen the horrors or war & obviously has some serious ptsd issues) I have nothing but respect for our military however as a “military brat” I saw what all that trauma has done to my father & I’d rather not put any of my future children through what I had to go through with my dad. It took years for our relationship to mend when things finally hit a breaking point. It broke me especially because of how hard I originally tried to build a relationship with my dad, I’d see him like once a year for the first 12 years of my life so I didn’t really know the guy until then.
I'm kinda new to the discussion so dumb question: Does Miguel think the universe/multiverse is deterministic? Is it deterministic in some way? Is it kept relatively deterministic by Kang (as shown in the Loki series) to keep things flowing relatively stably?
From my understanding,a perspective of someone in their early 40’s, when you’re teenager in through you’re 20’s you tend to be idealistic but by your late 30’s you talent to be a realist or conservative and pick your battles differently. This is how I looked at miles and Miguel’s point of view. Earlier I would have probably sided with miles but now it would depend on the situation
When I watched spiderverse, I sided with Miguel up until gwen's reunion with her dad where it's like "oh yeah, cause it's mile he can literally just ignore the consequences and save both" so my choice is Miles
Wow this an amazing video
Good job
Thank you so much 😀!
#1: I don't think it was meant to be Miles Morales' fault that he became an anomaly, but the Earth-42's spider make him Spider-Man mistakenly.
#2: The Spot (Dr. Jonathon) was the one who brought the Spider to bite him in his universe causing Miles Morales to become the anomaly and Spider-Man. But from the other side of Earth-42 Miles, he became the prowler instead of Spider-Man.
#3: Miguel O'Hara thinks that Gwen let Miles inside of the Spider-Verse, but It wasn't her's fault because; one of them (Jessica Drew or Lyla) who opened up the portal at first causing Miles Morales' having the first entrance to the spider-verse which disrupted the cannon events. (He started following her in the other universe.)
Damn I thought somebody would comment this but bra, you actually sound like a weird but not bad version of miles morales. They way the video starts had me convinced I was rewatching the movie for a sec.
I take that as a compliment haha!
@@Ranni definitely should. Shiii crazy
What if Miguel from the end of into the spider verse and Miguel from across the spider verse are 2 different versions of the character. Only because in the second movie he has a thicker accent. Same with Miles from universe 42
I don’t think that’s the case. I’m pretty sure they’re the same Miguel except they redesigned for the sequel. Would be crazy if you turn out to be right though lol.
@@Ranni I mean every other character has the same voice except for alt Miles and Miguel. Just seems like a weird choice when they showed Miguel in the end of into the spiderverse. Maybe I’m thinking way too much about it, but hey it would mean both Miles and Miguel are anomalies…
i think what should happen in the third movie is that mile's dad does die but the plot twist is it wasnt supposed to die and miguel was wrong about it being a canon event
The best thing about Miguel is that we can’t tell if he’s evil or not
Good video.
I believe the story is building up to make Miles decision an exception given what's known. Mostly for narrative, heroism, not giving up etc.
I think Miguel is wrong to claim he knows that Miles anomaly is wrong. You could qualify that as fear of the unknown. He's also taking a conservative low risk approach. We can't totally quantify the risk but it is big and doesn't favor Miles from what is known.
To be clear Miles is trying to flip the lever to risk many to save one. He can't not act he runs in first.
Not very familiar with virtue ethics but it sounds like it would frequently take negligent actions. There is simultaneously a need for paradigm shifts but also trying to make them happen has losses.
Miles: Miguel I can save bo-..
Miguel: ME VALE VERGA!!!!
As Montaigne says “Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know.” I don’t think Miles is an anomaly at all and I think Miguel is wrong in his perception of the world and I think we will see that in the part 2. I think Miguel misinterpreted why his universe collapsed. I also think it plays better for the story for Miles to be right and to be able to save his dad as thats a movie that gives hope and is encouraging rather than if Miguel is right.
I sort of find myself at a crossroads. I'm tempted to take the Vulcan view on the matter, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." But I have trouble emotionally with it. I guess I REALLY want Miguel O'Hara to be wrong.
I always thought this moral dilema seemed weird. If Miguel is right, then if Miles acts, his dad would die anyway. The whole Universe ends, including his dad, so the point is moot. Less a trolley problem, more a “pull this lever to stop the trolley but there is a 50% a nuclear bomb goes off anyway”. The only discussion here is if Miguel is even right. Miles basically assumed no, but Miguel assets he is right without good evidence. We know if you stay in another universe without a watch you cause damage, like in the first movie, and I assume that what happens to him. But he didn’t undo any canon events. Miguel HAD canon events, in his universe, but the other him in the other universe literally wasn’t Spider-Man. So by definition, he wasn’t fucking with canon. His whole theory is really shakey. We haven’t actually seen evidence that breaking spider canon actually does anything.
I always felt that when Miguel went to another universe he was messing up his OWN canon as opposed to his variant’s.
Just imagine a situation where your own daughter is dying, but you can get into another world in which she is alive. Then it turns out that because of your decisions, the whole universe died, and you were exposed as a good actor. Then you spend a few months perfecting teleportation technology, and then you spend a few more months raising an army against anomalies. Then they tell you that 2 parents and a teenager are a good option for soldiers of your army. Then an anomaly appears, which claims that he is normal and you tell him about the rules for destroying the universe. He says that he will save everyone, but you will explain to him that several people must die otherwise the WHOLE universe will be destroyed.But he doesn't listen to you and runs away. And then you are reassured by 2 idiots who drag 2 children with them on dangerous tasks
2:52 what's the music
Ppl nvr talk about the feelings of any of the other Spidermen after they had their canon event and was later recruited later…
I know I would feel some type of way knowing that this kid gets a chance to stop his event, but I was already powerless to prevent mine.
Very true. I hope they give more time for the other Spider-Men to express their feelings. I also don't know if it would be accurate to portray 99% of Spider Society siding with Miguel.
spider cat mourning the death of his kitty uncle whiskers is too hilarious of a visual to believe miguel’s yapping abt canon events. peter parked car is a car he can’t experience the canon either
The only problem with the the deontology point of view is that inaction is still action. You let 5 people die. You didn't chose to not make a decision. You're more guilty than if you were have chosen to only kill 1 person. Medicine is very similar. You do the greatest good for the most. You don't stand back and watch as more people die because your action would have killed less.
There is a dilemma that i dont see people taking about regarding the train and deontology. Inaction in itself is a conscious choice and an action. Turning the lever to have one person pass is the morally correct option seeing as your inaction will lead to death regardless.
Great video as always, but I think Miles will be fine because that's supposed to be his Uncle Ben moment right ? If so he already had that with his uncle Aaron and he kinda grew after that. That's why these moments are supposed to happen right ? Or I could be wrong lmao
Well, yes Miles has already had his "Uncle Ben" moment, but there are other parts of his story that need to happen, which according to Miguel is the death of his dad.
@@Ranniwell technically he said the police Captain dying is a cannon event.
@@kingmack6326ohh, thats right! Maybe the previous police capt is just old and will die of natural causes 😂