as a Muslim I always thought that all ex muslims support Israel then I was your video and it has broken my hole world view I can't hate you our apostate adlian
I am glad you see this: I know many ex-Muslims in our TH-cam community and in my personal life that feel the same way, they criticize Israel and see the humanity of Palestinians and don't see them just as "Muslim terrorists"
@@SecularSpirit good to know that people like you are out there and I hope one day ex muslims and muslims can live together in the same country and the same city and homes the same as the Christians wish all the best you may not believe in the same God as me but you and I are brothers in humanity and hope
I’m another one of those former Muslims who support Palestinian self-determination and abhor the indiscriminate killing by the Israeli government and of the IDF.
I highly doubt that all ex-Muslims are pro-Israel. But surely many are because they see 🇮🇱 as a “beacon of tolerance and respect” in which they are not judged, nor persecuted, nor threatened with death, so I don't blame them. However, I give you some examples: - Leila Khalid - As'ad AbuKhalil - Nawal El Saadawi - Jamal Zahalka - Mimunt Hamido Yahia - Zaki al-Arsuzi - Nadia El Fani - Ali A. Rizvi - Maram al-Masri - Ibtissam "Betty" Lachgar - Asma Agbarieh-Zahalka - Mansoor Hekmat - Azar Majedi - Najat El Hachmi Probably there are more, but these are the only ones I've been talking about.
I identify myself as Post-Zionist/Non-Zionist and Secular Humanist, this latter like you, proudly! As popular as it is, I no longer identify with the two-state solution, which after the increase in settlements is almost no longer viable, but with a "variety of the one-state solution" that can follow two paths: 1) Create a federal state with a central government and federated districts, some of which would be Jewish and others Palestinian. 2) Found a confederation in which independent Israeli and Palestinian states share powers in some areas, and Israelis and Palestinians have residency rights in each other's nations (the best of the two in my humble opinion). What I am not willing to defend is the extremist side of one side or another that seeks the extermination of the other (also receiving the nefarious support of the USA and Iran). There was a time when I thought like that and I deeply regret it, I refuse to dehumanize anyone, whether Israeli or Palestinian (although I still consider the followers of Hamas, the PIJ and the Kahanists worse than a sore on the eyes). The problem is that according to the most recent Palestine/Israel Pulse survey in 2023, support for a democratic one-state solution stands at 23% among Palestinians and 20% among Israeli Jews. A non-equal non-democratic one-state solution remains more popular among both populations, supported by 30% of Palestinians and 37% of Israeli Jews. A Palestinian poll conducted in September 2024 revealed that only 10% of respondents supported a single state that would provide equal rights for both Jews and Palestinians. Thanks Secular Spirit for your braves speeches and your seeking for peace, even if is easier to be vengeful. Israelis and Palestinians should follow your example! PS: My new motto: "Neither Zionism nor Islamism", Justice & Freedom for all!.
Wow thank you so much, and nice to read this comment from a fellow secular humanist. Your one-state solution paths are quite interesting, and potentially workable...if, as you said, people on both extremes stop dehumanizing the other side. Neither Zionism nor Islamism is a good motto!
Equating Zionism with Islamism is ridiculous. Zionism is essentially just Jewish nationalism but for some reason we have a special word for it as opposed to say, Arab/Iranian/Turkish/Pakistani nationalism. Overall though, I do like and agree with the tone of your comment.
Unfortunately, I’ve encountered that impasse before. While I’m not Palestinian, I am a ‘privileged’ Swiss man with plausible Jewish ancestry. I once had an acquaintance with whom I played D&D. By all accounts, he was-and hopefully still is-a well-educated, cultured man, a good father and husband, and a competent doctor. He was moderate on most topics, but when it came to Zionism, he was completely intransigent. I was never able to have a conversation with him on the subject without it ending in him yelling at me.
This is sadly a recurring story - to be honest, I've met Palestinians/Muslims like that too (the subject of Israel just brings out this irrational side I never see otherwise). All we can do is try to make the arguments to think outside of their normal perspective, I suppose.
Very interesting thought-provoking video would you ever be interested in doing a discussion with other people who would be more reasonable? I'm definitely looking to talk to more people and eventually start a TH-cam channel
This is very important to say. Unfortunately I don't think this video (or really any video) will convince anyone of the humanity of Palestinians. But it's very good that you tried.
Thank you so much for watching and sharing this! I got emotional working on this video too, especially when talking about the Munich film and listening to its tragic music.
Is there any specific reputable charity you can suggest to donate for Palestine cause? because the situation is getting more and more difficult for Palestine people in general. You are loved and valued, more than hatred and dehumanisation that you experience daily. Much love from India.
Thank you so much for saying that, much love from Canada. Yes, I do know one charity that isn't politically/religiously affiliated. It's called Playgrounds for Palestine: playgroundsforpalestine.org/
Thank you, Aleem, for speaking about this issue and bringing awareness to it. I find that a healthy conversation is sadly lacking in the ex-Muslim spaces I've come across, with the exception of yourself and Apostate Aladdin. As someone who has been speaking extensively to both Palestinians and zionists throughout this past year, much of the dynamics you speak on resonate with my experience. I am also a believer in a one state solution, with one pluralistic, multiethnic and democratic state with full right of return being granted to the Palestinian diaspora. In my opinion, Israel lacks legitimacy to continue as a state in itd current form, namely a system of racial segregation that is tantamount to apartheid, as reiterated by ICJ this July 19th. I have no horse in this race, being neither Jewish, Arab, Muslim or Palestinian, but I stand firmly alongside the Palestinian People in the struggle for liberation and self-determination in their ancestral land, which they have been stewarding for time immemorial. Settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide are never justifiable and I will die on that hill. A hill that hopefully one day will again be home to fields of za'atar and majestic olive trees that will continue to nourish the Palestinian people for generations to come 🌳🇵🇸
It means a lot to know that the conversations I aim to foster resonate with you, especially in a space where genuine dialogue can often be hard to find. Apostate Aladdin and I both strive to bring nuance to these discussions, so I'm glad it's making a difference. Your vision for a one-state solution, where all people are treated with equality and dignity, and Palestinians have a right to return, is a powerful one. I share your hope for a future where Palestinians and Israelis can live together, cultivating fields of za'atar and olive trees in peace. Your solidarity, despite not having a personal connection to the region, is truly inspiring and a reminder of the importance of standing up for justice wherever it’s needed. Thank you again for your support-it's voices like yours that keep the hope for change alive.
As you know perfectly well and contrary to what theists claim, we atheists/agnostics/irreligious folks are perfectly capable of moral conduct and ethical evaluation of the circumstances that surround us. In that sense, it is my human nature and my moral compass which compell me to stand up against oppression and to support those suffering it. It comes naturally to me, as I'm sure it does to you, when this emanates from an ethical code one arrives at and perfects through intellectual inquiry. Again, I want to reiterate my full support to you as an apostate, a Palestinian and a beautiful human being. P.S.: based on the first four letters of my account name, you'll figure out who I am on Instagram. I reached out to you there a while back 😊 Sending you much love and solidarity, Aleem ♥️
Love this! ❤ And I rarely say this on videos about Israel Palestine because everything is so polarised out there. I think it would be great to go on deeper with an Israeli on "generational trauma and hate from both sides, where each feels there can only be one victim and the other side is the oppressor "
Thanks so much for watching, Zara. It's a tough subject to navigate, so I'm glad you liked it a bit better than much of the polarising content out there. And I agree with your suggestion, I'm on the lookout for a good person, ideally Israeli, to explore those themes that came up in the video.
Islam is a problem, but it's not the primary problem. Taking people's homes and livelihoods through violence and political alliances is the primary problem.
Tragic story. Good video, Aleem. It felt like this guy kinda abused you on the phone, and I don't like that. We are all human, but not spiritually the same. This type of yelling can show an immaturity and an unwillingness to admit his wrongness. To be in the academic doesn't protect from imbecility unfortunately. Also, let's not forget that some human beings (few thankfully) are doing evil things, not talking about an evil force in the world, nor people being evil, just what humans are capable of doing. About politicians, I wonder how many are sincere in their words, because the trend seems to be the lie, the hypocrisy : telling one thing, while doing the opposite. And as you showed multiple examples, the vast majority of us want good in the world, want peace, want all people to be able to live decently and freely, with pure water and food, a shelter, protected, with access to health, education, with a promising future ahead of us. Thank you for having done this new video on this subject. I hope millions of people will watch it. :)
It means a lot to me that you noticed and empathized with the difficult aspects of that conversation. I agree-sometimes, even those in academic or seemingly rational spaces can display a lack of maturity or openness, especially when confronted with uncomfortable truths. And you're absolutely right-humans are capable of both incredible kindness and profound cruelty, depending on the choices they make. I also share your skepticism about politicians and their sincerity. It's hard to ignore the hypocrisy when words and actions don’t align. But like you said, the majority of us want a better world-one where everyone can live with dignity, basic needs met, and the chance for a bright future. That's the vision that keeps me going, and I'm grateful for supportive voices like yours that keep these conversations alive. Thank you again for watching, and for your hope that this message reaches millions. It means a lot! And maybe you can talk about this subject on your channel too!!
I don’t know if we could, or should, avoid emotions in this. The reason we even talk about this is because it causes pain to humans so trying to avoid the feelings and “both siding” the issue gives undue pressure to the victims and an undue benefit of the doubt to the perpetrators. I also had a class about colonialism in university and if we tried to talk about it “logically” we ended up up just looking past the active pain, which we could stop as Canadians, while we sit around and pretend we’re making a difference. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know that inviting Israel and Palestine to a tea party to discuss the issue cannot happen while Israel commits geno cide
I totally agree with you actually, Id' just add that it's more about not allowing the emotions to reach the point where anger/resentment leads to a refusal to compromise and to a dehumanizing of those on the "other side".
@@SecularSpiritI agree. I had a friend online from Israel and on the 7th of October this year they made a post about the anniversary and they didn’t count Palestinians in their death toll. I sent them a message just saying that I hope they’re doing okay and they talked about how Palestinians are never going to stop and they are barbarians that will never come to the table for peace. I pointed out the bad stuff Israel does and he immediately blocked me and kicked me from a server he owned. It is…. So sad that he is so brainwashed and I kinda regret bringing it up because he’s not in my life now but I know I stood up for what was right even if it was the bare minimum.
@@nepoleon92 That's so sad...and unfortunately it reflects the mentality, because he probably assumed you were antisemitic for bringing up those bad stuff that Israel does. With that mentality, it's hard to crack through to get anyone to listen. But I'm glad you stood up for what was right there, if we all did that, it would make a massive difference.
It all started with colonialism, over a century ago. The idea that other powers can invade and control other people's territories has caused so many problems.
I guess you're dismissing the Arab colonisation which began 1400 years ago? Israel is the beginning of the #rollback of Arab colonisation. The Allied Powers defeated the Ottoman Empire in 1918. The indigenous Jews fought on the side of the British, in return for the promise of being able to reconstitute their ancestral home in historic Palestine. Wars have consequences, especially when your side started the war and you lose 🙄.
@@sandytatham3592 Did you mean Islamic colonisation? Because Arabs have been living in that region for millenia, many of them Christians and Jews. In fact, Jews have been in the minority for 2000 years. Also, the Zionists were mainly NOT indigenous, but migrants from the Jewish diaspora.
@@sandytatham3592 This is the duplicity of these "colonialism" claims. Despite Israel's population being a mixture of (among others) Middle Easterners, WW2 refugees and their descendants, along with migrants who legally moved there under the Ottomans and during the British mandate (plus more recently migrants from places like Russia), pro-Palestine people use this distinctly racist "colonialism" rhetoric, often with phrases like "go back to Europe". Should Arab people "go back to the Arabian peninsula", all those descendants of the settler colonialists who took over large swathes of North Africa and parts of the Middle East from where they are not native? Well no, because it seems some people have a special right to colonise other people's land. Couple that with the supremacist elements of Islam that says their followers must be the dominant power everywhere, it leaves you with vast numbers of people who will never compromise with Israel. Islamists like Hamas don't want a Palestinian state, they want a caliphate and see a Palestinian state as a stepping stone to that. How many other Palestinians feel that way, I don't know but the more of them that do, the less likely there will ever be peace.
I'm sorry you were yelled at. Therapy can really help, and I think it is needed. I've found many Palestinians differentiate Israel, zionism, and Jewish people. It's been refreshing as many supporters of the state do not. As I treat religion as a fundamentally emotional issue this political doctrine is a well. In some cases the doctrine is or similar to a person's religion. I think, instead of banging your head against a wall and talking to supporters, like religious followers, who might hit a point resistance, talking to people who left the cult would be more productive and satisfying. They would be able to communicate their motives and experiences and might be able to offer advice on if you should engage with supporters. I wonder, and I'm guessing that when you suggested democratic, representation for all and one state that is the end of the state in supporters ears-because the doctrine is built on the majority and dominance of that one group, and population growth (or even a right to return for all) mean the end of that supremacy and that state built on it. A new and different state would have to come into existence. I think the conflict can end when enough people can put pressure on governments and businesses to change policy. It's the simple matter of it hurts more to support the state than tolerate behaviors. People will lead the governments and businesses. That means persuasion. Today is a grim, sad day, thanks for this.
You're absolutely right-approaching these topics can feel like banging your head against a wall sometimes, especially when discussing it with people who are deeply entrenched in a particular mindset. I love your idea of engaging with those who've "left the cult" of rigid ideologies, as they can indeed offer unique insights that are both productive and meaningful. I keep track of all your email suggestions by the way, I'm hoping one of them works out, sometimes it's hard to get a hold of other content creators and activists. Your point about how my suggestion of democratic representation (which by the way is not my proposed solution, but it was just a theoretical solution I was running by that individual) might be interpreted as the end of the state, from the perspective of some Israelis, resonates with me. The challenge lies in imagining a different future than the one we're creating right now. I also agree that change will ultimately come when enough people put pressure on governments and corporations to shift their policies, making injustice too costly to sustain. As grim as today feels, the path forward will require patient persuasion, and I find hope in the fact that we are having conversations like this.
In the proximity where I live there have also been many examples of people being driven from their lands. One example, Karelia which used to belong to Finland and had a predominantly Finnish speaking population were expelled in 1944 after Finland lost the continuation war and sued for peace with the Sovietunion in 1944. 400.000 Karelians were displaced and had to flee to Finland within its new borders. These Karelians tried to keep their legacy alive and had dreams about one day returning but that dream faded with each new generation and today all but a fraction have completely assimilated with the majority Finnish population. What did not happen was Karelians promoting hatred towards the Russian population in Karelia, creating armed militias, training suicide bombers, running around Viipuri (capital of Karelia) committing terrorist acts or firing home made rockets into Karelian territory. People accepted that war and fate had created a new situation which was out of their control and that they had to adapt to this new reality. War and fate has brought Palestinians where they are today. Perhaps one day Palestinians will adapt a more pragmatic approach instead of the constantly escalating cycle of violence and hatred and instead focus on bettering the lives of ordinary Palestinians and select leaders that work on achieving these goals.
I think it's terrible that Finnish people were ethnically cleansed from Karelia, but I don't know very much about that. I think there are really important differences between the Palestinian situation and the Finnish situation that explains their different reaction, but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me. Most, literally more than half, of the land that was Palestine before 1948 became a Jewish state even though the overwhelming majority of the people living there were non-Jewish Palestinians. The overwhelming majority of the Jewish population of Israel came from other places very recently while most Palestinians had very deep roots in Palestine. I think Jewish people are indigenous to that land as well, but it's easy to see the Palestinian perspective that they have a right to the whole land that was Palestine in 1947. Furthermore, there has been terrorism in the name of independence movements by white/European people very recently. For example, there was a lot of Irish terrorism before they gained their independence and there hasn't been an independent Palestinian state, so it makes sense that they would react similarly. Irish people have not been murdered and oppressed like Palestinians in recent memory, so it makes sense that they are reacting even more radically.
@@Andrew_Young I really like your open and understanding perspective on this, I have misgivings on your point about how Jewish people have a right to the land, I worry what is implied by "right", especially if we were to apply that same rationale to the rest of the world and how peoples have come and gone, usually using violence. It's a crucial discussion topic.
I wonder about that too, adapt and assimilate. It's the same argument that some have made to Indigenous people in Canada, and it has been described as something that will erase their culture and way of life. Is that a price worth paying, I suppose that's the debate.
@@Andrew_Young , There are quite a few similarities actually. Before the war the population in Karelia was Finnish speaking Karelians with a small Russian minority and afterwards it became the total opposite with only a miniscule amount of Karelians remaining. You could also claim that Russians colonized and ethnically cleansed the area. People all over the world has dabbled in terrorism and it happened, not in Karelia proper, but further up North in the sparsely populated areas north of lake Ladoga. During the war regular army troops on both sides conducted massacres on the civilian population in manners that cannot be described as anything but terrorism. This of course ended completely after the war. The biggest difference is that Finland and Karelia are not independent entities by their own, and if Karelians had dealt with the situation like the Palestinians the consequences would have been severe since that would have required dealing with the USSR and later Russia directly and that would have ended badly for Karelians and Finns alike and most likely got all Karelians expelled from Finland.
@@SecularSpirit , I am gonna be a little harsh in this response but hopefully not mean. First of all , Palestinians in Gaza don't really have to assimilate to anything. Its almost one hundred percent Palestinian unlike Israel where twenty percent of the population have Arab background. Palestinians in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Kuwait had the chance to integrate and adapt but choose instead to continue the cycle of violence with all what that entails. There is a reason why these countries no longer allow Palestinians to enter. Especially in Kuwait Palestinians made the foolhardy decision to side with Saddam and Iraq and then later getting expelled from the country once it was liberated. And sure, the debate about integration and assimilation is a long, hard and complicated one but at the end one has to start looking at options for Palestinians. Is the current route the right one or should they perhaps be looking for alternatives for the betterment of ordinary Palestinians.
Hamas Covenant 1988 Article ONE: The movement's programme is ISLAM. From it, it draws its ideas, way of thinking.....Then if you don't quote the quran, you don’t quote the Hamas Covenants, you don’t quote the hadiths, you don't quote the words of the Hamas leaders, you don't quote the textbooks used by UNWRA, you don’t quote the Reliance of the Traveller, while speaking about this conflict.....KNOW THAT IT'S YOU WHO WEARS THE PANTY AT HOME.
I'm an ex-muslim, very pro-israel and although I disagree with many of your perceptions of Israel in this video and I think you're too biased against Israel, blind to Palestinian provocations which make Israel actions seem neccessary to Israelis, blind to how Palestinians have no crisis of conscience while conscience is constantly invoked against Israelis and many other points. So even though I disagreed, I upvoted. The last few minutes of this video genuinely encapsulate a true way out of this conflict. I hope you can come to emphasize that, rather than several other points over-emphasizing Israel's power alone to end this conflict even as its surrounded by terrorist threats to which it already displays a lot of restraint. I wonder if you'd be open to a conversation on this topic with me, an ex-muslim zionist.
I'd hate to see what Israel would be like without "a lot of restraint" 😅Which side has the fourth strongest military and hundreds of billions of aid from the US, I'll ask you that too. With great power, comes a great crisis of conscience and cognitive dissonance. Sure, I'd be open to a conversation. You can email me (my email is in my About page)
@SecularSpirit I think I understand why that individual got very upset when you mentioned your idea of a one-state solution. In fact, I'm more surprised at your surprise to his reaction, than at his own reaction. Like you said, it is about control. But you make it sound like israelis do not have very good reasons to want to control the state they live in. A one-state would likely mean jews would be a minority. Their recent (and not so recent) history has solidified for them the idea that they are not safe as minorities in any country. Their experience as minorities in the surrounding arab states is no exception. The fact that there is no example of any arab (one might even argue any muslim state) with a democratic form of government, or even any examples with thriving non-muslim minorities also doesn't help.
So Israelis have very good reasons for taking away the rights and freedoms of millions of people, is that what you are saying? They were oppressed as a minority historically so they decided the next time they were a minority, they'd be the oppressors...which I agree is what they've done. That doesn't make it right, though, and what the Israeli state is doing is in violation of UN resolutions and international law, is it not? And lastly, there's a lot of reasons why many Arab/Muslim countries, as well as other developing/third world countries don't have a democratic form of government, and it has to do with religion, but a lot to do with the interference and backing of coups from countries like the US.
@@SecularSpirit No, that is not what I am saying at all. I simply said that his objection to a one-state solution is legitimate and understandable. I do not find that objections to a two-state solution are legitimate. Nor do I think the illegal settlements tolerated or supported by the Israeli government are legitimate. But a one-state solution is simply a non-starter.
@@m0stbel0veds0n He didn't just object though...he lost his temper and yelled over and over again. You could make arguments that I'm wrong and agree to disagree, I'd accept that, but his kind of attitude is the actual non-starter, not the one-state solution.
@@SecularSpirit I'm sure his reaction did not help the conversation, but I very much doubt that you would get much traction with the one-state idea even with calm and collected Israelis. There are also people who would support the illegal settlements and demand the eviction of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank (a from-the-river-to-the-sea in reverse), on grounds that Arabs already got a state out of the British mandate (i.e., Jordan). I'm sure you would agree that would also be a non-starter and would cause quite a lot of angry reactions on the Palestinian side (again, justifiably).
@@SecularSpirit I replied yesterday, but for some reason it didn't get through. TLDR: I don't know why you don't see the one-state solution as a non-starter. There are non-starter solutions from the other side as well, including the one supported by the illegal settlers: take everything, because the Arabs already got Jordan out of the British Mandate. I'm sure you would agree that's a non-starter, so why not the one-state as well?
you are the perfect example of why this will never come to a conclusion. because just like anybody else you "try" to see the whole picture but....internal biasing kicks in inevitably. In my opinion Israel has gone overboard with trying to accommodate, avoid conflict and live in peace. They came from wherever they were scattered in the world and they came tired of conflict, violence and evil. And they came to their homeland which was taken away from them by greater Empires: Roman, Islamic, Ottoman. All these Empires have used their might to evict the Jews from their own land and keep them from ever being owners of their own land and worship according to their own religion. And yet the time of Roman, Islamic and Ottoman colonizing has come to an end and they finally were able to return to the land of their ancestors, rebuild it, and be masters of their own destiny, worshipping freely (actually not quite entirely freely). But, that didn't sit well with Muslims and with Islam. And that is the real problem: Islam and it's teachings, a constant source of fuel for this conflict. The rest is just cover-up.
It didn't sit well with the local population because they saw an attempt to move an entire other population into the area at their expense, it's really that simple. I'm descended from people who lived there for centuries, you know. But now moving forward, the solution has to be one that incorporates everyone, and Israel has the dominant power to push for this solution.
@SecularSpirit today's Palestinians should be aware of the fact that Jerusalem has been built and inhabited by Jews for millenia. Islamic and Ottoman Empire allowed Muslims to settle after the vast majority of Jews were kicked out. The remaining ones had no right to build synagogue or to own land. They had no rights to go to their Temple (and still don't). I think it's right to say that coming back to their ancestral homeland is no crime. I also think it's fair to say that even though the Arab Muslims had lived in what is today Israel they were living in a land that was conquered. If today's Palestinians identify with ancient Philistines then that is also an empty claim because all history mentions Philistines living in Gaza and surrounding area having as neighbor....Israel.
@SecularSpirit oh, and I forgot to mention one more important thing: contrary to what some claim the solution to this conflict lies solely with the Muslims. Israel has always claimed in international conventions that is willing to make peace giving that they are offered reasonable peace terms. The best example of their willingness to make peace is the treaty with Egypt and the returning of Sinai peninsula. History has shown that it's not the Jews/Israel who attacks indiscriminately but rather that they were attacked first followed by cries of mercy and ceasefire, when the attack didn't turned out to be successful. Every single time. It's just that they had enough of this game where their lives are always considered cheap and expandable but the attackers lives are sacred. The ball is in the Islamic/Muslim arena. I suggest that Muslims should be told to learn to live Israel alone and mind their own business. Otherwise it will ever end and we will see this repeating over and over.
@@liviuconstantin9960 I recommend two books to you: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Palestine and: www.amazon.com/Line-Sand-James-Barr-Sir/dp/1847394574
I agree with almost everything you said. Of course, I agree the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are colonies however, I don't really see Jewish people moving to Israel as colonization since I see Jewish people as indigenous to that land and they didn't already have a country that they were expanding. Since Israel already exists I do see expanding into the West Bank as colonization, but before Israel existed I don't see Jewish people moving to Palestine and seeking independence from Palestine as colonization.
I do not get what you mean by "before Israel existed I don't see Jewish people moving to Palestine and seeking independence from Palestine as colonization.". Just because yuo do not have a country of your own, does not give you the right to go another place and get it under your control, build another country there, while other people have already been living there. So, do you allege Roma people could come and get your land, found and independent country, as they do not have an ethnicity based country of their own? That makes no sense.
@@canaygibi8924 I didn't say it's okay I said it's not colonization. From what I understand Roma are indigenous to India and I'd be just as sympathetic to Roma having a state in India as Jewish people having Israel. I live in Canada and I'm totally fine with Indigenous people having more land. I'm against ethnic cleansing everywhere so the Naqba was evil and shouldn't have happened and frankly should be prosecuted, but Jews having a right of return to Palestine and then gaining independence I have no problem with. If Native Canadians moved into my neighborhood and became a majority and wanted independence I'd be fine with that as long as I'm not ethnically cleansed from my home.
Glad you agree with most of what I said, and it's true that Jewish people were there once (and, actually, some Jewish people have always lived there,) but the issue is the Zionist project that came with very specific goals in mind regarding what to do with the Arabs in that land. And that was undoubtedly a colonizing project even if they didn't view it as one.
@@SecularSpirit "...it's true that Jewish people were there once (and, actually, some Jewish people have always lived there,)" I definitely agree that some Jewish people have always been in Palestine. I don't think the fact that Jewish people were there once makes them indigenous to the area. Romans were there once, but they were definitely not indigenous. What makes most Jews indigenous is that almost all of the Jewish communities around the world can trace their origins to the Middle East. "...but the issue is the Zionist project that came with very specific goals in mind regarding what to do with the Arabs in that land. And that was undoubtedly a colonizing project even if they didn't view it as one." I see that particular aspect of Zionism as ethnic cleansing and I've never been in favour of that. Displacing Palestinians so that Jews can move into their homes and lands is ethnic cleansing and I'm solidly against that and I think the Naqba should be prosecuted. The thing that I don't think is bad is Jews moving back. Jews moving to Palestine doesn't displace Palestinians it just adds more people to the area.
youtube.com/@rudyrochman I think I would really be interested in a conversation between you and Rudy. I feel like Rudy has somewhat similar viewpoints but from the Israeli side. On a personal note, I appreciate your perspective. There has to be a way forward where there is peace. I recognize though that this middle perspective is likely to be hated by both sides. Good luck.
Thanks for recommending this, I'll check out Rudy's channel - I really do want to talk about this issue with someone on the Israeli side. This middle perspective won't be popular or easy, I guess that's why it hasn't been reached yet. But we have to change this status quo!
I favour the proposal that former US Ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, has set out in his new book #OneJewishState. That Israel extend sovereignty over Judea and Samaria (but not Gaza) and offer 'permanent resident status' to the occupants. That would give them equal civil rights, access to the same education, healthcare, employment, security as Israeli citizens, and a large degree of autonomy in their Arab cities. But it would not give them national voting rights. The next generation could be given a pathway to full Israeli citizenship if they can pledge allegiance to the *Jewish* state of Israel. Those who reject this offer should be assisted to resettle in another country. What are your thoughts on this, Secular Spirit? Are you from Gaza or the West Bank?
I'm from the West Bank. Here's my one main issue: the way the Israeli state works, you cannot have true full rights as a citizen UNLESS you are Jewish. For example, big chunks of the country cannot be lived in unless you are Jewish. You'd always be a secondary citizen as a non-Jew, so if that were to change at the constitutional level, then sure.
@@SecularSpirit: I agree that racial and cultural discrimination does exist in Israel, but can you name one country where there is NO discrimination at all? The important thing is that there are *no laws which discriminate on the basis of race or religion*, with the exception that military service is not compulsory for Arab Israelis. And even with the discrimination that does exist, the majority of Israeli Arabs say they would never choose to live in an Arab or Muslim-majority state. Do you think you might be holding Israel to a _higher standard_ than other countries? My main concern is for the future generations of Arab children who live in the West Bank and Gaza. If they were given the same opportunities as Israeli Arab children, they could thrive and prosper. Though I do understand that the western idea of 'thrive and prosper' is a bit different to the Islamic one...🙄
Bro there was a time when there was no check points or walls between Gaza and Israel what happened? Maybe you should look up how Palestinian intifada changed everything. Gaza have a government and that’s Hamza Israel don’t control their government. Israel only control half of Gaza electricity and remember Egypt also control southern part of Gaza border. Palestinians went to war against Israel in 1948 and lost hence why they lost their home and territory, war do have consequences and no one wants to live in same house with his enemy being the majority. I understand the plight of the Palestinians and Israel has committed their own fair share of atrocities but we’ve to be objective, Palestinians has cause their own problems by themselves more than any other ppl in the world. They could’ve used the billions of dollars send to them in aid to build their part of the region but they only use it for sadistic intentions.
Europeans expelled and ethnically cleansed Palestinians from their land to build a 'homeland' (settler colony) based on a delusional book. What the fvck are you saying? People like you would justify slavery and the gen0c1de of the indigenous people of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
@@Tosin226: As @truthfinder said above, "wars have consequences". The Arabs of Palestine fought on the side of the Ottoman Turks and they LOST that war in 1918. The Ottomans *ceded* their land to the British and French. The British and French were under no obligation in 1918 to give that land to the occupants but they did. The #indigenous Jews fought with the British and were promised the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland, so long as the Arabs and other occupants civil and religious rights were not compromised. Today over TWO MILLION Arabs live in the *Jewish* state of Israel, with equal rights under the law. Israel is less than 1% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land. The Hejazi Arabs also fought with the British Lawrence of Arabia and they were given 99% of that land, today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Israel is an "indigenous rights" success story, and the beginning of the rollback of Arab imperialism.
My friend I’ve started watching your videos to see if my faith is wrong and I can’t even believe how you interpreted Christianity. It’s a shame that somehow you have associated fear with the Christian story, when it is the complete opposite of that.
Christianity is built on fear sadly, I hope you see that one day. It is designed to comfort our fears of death, our fears that life might be meaningless, our fear suffering having no purpose...think about these things and how they might give you your faith. And think what happens to people who reject Jesus.
@@SecularSpirit You say designed as if one person put together the bible, when it’s multiple authors and writers all coming to the same conclusion. I’m pretty sure to be a Christian you have to accept the love of Christ through his ultimate sacrifice, and in return share his love with others. How does that play into human fear? If anything it plays into the innate human desire for unconditional love.
@@SecularSpiritAt the very least for Christianity you acknowledge that a Christian worldview with meaning, purpose, love and joy is more appealing than the one you currently have. I think if you’re being honest with yourself you desire a worldview like that, you want your life to mean something. But if your consistent in your wordview it ultimately doesn’t. I think you should read the book of ecclesiastes from the Bible. It delves into meaning deeply and it turned me into a Christian.
@@SecularSpirit Life without God is ultimately meaningless but are you yourself not evidence that you want meaning despite knowing that? You have a whole TH-cam channel brother!! Does that not show you that despite your logical conclusion of life being meaningless, deep down you believe that to be false? If not the only question you must answer is why continue living? I think the Christian story is so absurd and emotionally charged with everything a human could ask for is what in itself makes it true. Because that is the Christian story. It’s like the ultimate Myth except it’s actually grounded in loads of history and prophecy from the Old Testament.
@@SecularSpirit Also as for Hell, I think we see it completely differently. Hell to me is a reassurance from God that ultimate justice does infact exist. Good triumphs over evil. Secondly nobody will be in hell that didn’t want to be there in the first place. Using you as an example, you clearly have decided to reject the notion of God, his love for you and his sacrifice, whilst having full knowledge of Jesus Christ and access to knowing him. Therefore you will be judged differently from someone who never heard the name Jesus Christ. The Gospel and the accounts make it clear that everyone has the law written in their hearts and will be judged according to what they have done. People from the Old Testament didn’t know Jesus Christ but in humility put their faith in God and we’re saved. You are actively choosing to spend your eternity away from God. And I don’t think a truly loving God would force you to be with him. Free Will. Jesus Christ was the reconciliation between us and God. I accepted the gift, you didn’t. That doesn’t make God a moral monster. That makes him just and loving.
as a Muslim I always thought that all ex muslims support Israel then I was your video and it has broken my hole world view I can't hate you our apostate adlian
I am glad you see this: I know many ex-Muslims in our TH-cam community and in my personal life that feel the same way, they criticize Israel and see the humanity of Palestinians and don't see them just as "Muslim terrorists"
@@SecularSpirit good to know that people like you are out there and I hope one day ex muslims and muslims can live together in the same country and the same city and homes the same as the Christians wish all the best you may not believe in the same God as me but you and I are brothers in humanity and hope
I’m another one of those former Muslims who support Palestinian self-determination and abhor the indiscriminate killing by the Israeli government and of the IDF.
@@umarfarooqi-tj3rh Well said! Humanity and hope!
I highly doubt that all ex-Muslims are pro-Israel. But surely many are because they see 🇮🇱 as a “beacon of tolerance and respect” in which they are not judged, nor persecuted, nor threatened with death, so I don't blame them.
However, I give you some examples:
- Leila Khalid
- As'ad AbuKhalil
- Nawal El Saadawi
- Jamal Zahalka
- Mimunt Hamido Yahia
- Zaki al-Arsuzi
- Nadia El Fani
- Ali A. Rizvi
- Maram al-Masri
- Ibtissam "Betty" Lachgar
- Asma Agbarieh-Zahalka
- Mansoor Hekmat
- Azar Majedi
- Najat El Hachmi
Probably there are more, but these are the only ones I've been talking about.
I identify myself as Post-Zionist/Non-Zionist and Secular Humanist, this latter like you, proudly!
As popular as it is, I no longer identify with the two-state solution, which after the increase in settlements is almost no longer viable, but with a "variety of the one-state solution" that can follow two paths:
1) Create a federal state with a central government and federated districts, some of which would be Jewish and others Palestinian.
2) Found a confederation in which independent Israeli and Palestinian states share powers in some areas, and Israelis and Palestinians have residency rights in each other's nations (the best of the two in my humble opinion).
What I am not willing to defend is the extremist side of one side or another that seeks the extermination of the other (also receiving the nefarious support of the USA and Iran). There was a time when I thought like that and I deeply regret it, I refuse to dehumanize anyone, whether Israeli or Palestinian (although I still consider the followers of Hamas, the PIJ and the Kahanists worse than a sore on the eyes).
The problem is that according to the most recent Palestine/Israel Pulse survey in 2023, support for a democratic one-state solution stands at 23% among Palestinians and 20% among Israeli Jews. A non-equal non-democratic one-state solution remains more popular among both populations, supported by 30% of Palestinians and 37% of Israeli Jews. A Palestinian poll conducted in September 2024 revealed that only 10% of respondents supported a single state that would provide equal rights for both Jews and Palestinians.
Thanks Secular Spirit for your braves speeches and your seeking for peace, even if is easier to be vengeful. Israelis and Palestinians should follow your example!
PS: My new motto: "Neither Zionism nor Islamism", Justice & Freedom for all!.
Wow thank you so much, and nice to read this comment from a fellow secular humanist. Your one-state solution paths are quite interesting, and potentially workable...if, as you said, people on both extremes stop dehumanizing the other side. Neither Zionism nor Islamism is a good motto!
Equating Zionism with Islamism is ridiculous. Zionism is essentially just Jewish nationalism but for some reason we have a special word for it as opposed to say, Arab/Iranian/Turkish/Pakistani nationalism.
Overall though, I do like and agree with the tone of your comment.
@@SecularSpirit
It's not mine, but I adopted it!
Thank you 😄
@thecrimsondragon9744 it's not ridiculous. Zionism is another form of expansionism as is Islamists who also seek to expand Islamic territories.
Unfortunately, I’ve encountered that impasse before. While I’m not Palestinian, I am a ‘privileged’ Swiss man with plausible Jewish ancestry. I once had an acquaintance with whom I played D&D. By all accounts, he was-and hopefully still is-a well-educated, cultured man, a good father and husband, and a competent doctor. He was moderate on most topics, but when it came to Zionism, he was completely intransigent. I was never able to have a conversation with him on the subject without it ending in him yelling at me.
This is sadly a recurring story - to be honest, I've met Palestinians/Muslims like that too (the subject of Israel just brings out this irrational side I never see otherwise). All we can do is try to make the arguments to think outside of their normal perspective, I suppose.
Very interesting thought-provoking video would you ever be interested in doing a discussion with other people who would be more reasonable? I'm definitely looking to talk to more people and eventually start a TH-cam channel
As a now christian exmuslim palestinian I cant thank you enough for all you do🙏
Thank you so much, my fellow Palestinian!
This is very important to say. Unfortunately I don't think this video (or really any video) will convince anyone of the humanity of Palestinians. But it's very good that you tried.
I appreciate you saying that, and yes, perhaps not, but the least I can do is try...
I can't tell if mine is unchecked emotionality or not rn, but hell yes, I got emotional.
Watched it all, and yeah, I'm definitely going to share it. ❤
Thank you so much for watching and sharing this! I got emotional working on this video too, especially when talking about the Munich film and listening to its tragic music.
That was great! Thanks for sharing 🤎
Your nuanced approach is very admirable.
Thank you!
Is there any specific reputable charity you can suggest to donate for Palestine cause? because the situation is getting more and more difficult for Palestine people in general. You are loved and valued, more than hatred and dehumanisation that you experience daily. Much love from India.
Thank you so much for saying that, much love from Canada. Yes, I do know one charity that isn't politically/religiously affiliated. It's called Playgrounds for Palestine: playgroundsforpalestine.org/
Extremely glad I discovered your channel. Please keep on telling the truth with insight and understanding. 💙
Thank you! I'm happy you discovered my channel too!
Thank you, Aleem, for speaking about this issue and bringing awareness to it. I find that a healthy conversation is sadly lacking in the ex-Muslim spaces I've come across, with the exception of yourself and Apostate Aladdin.
As someone who has been speaking extensively to both Palestinians and zionists throughout this past year, much of the dynamics you speak on resonate with my experience.
I am also a believer in a one state solution, with one pluralistic, multiethnic and democratic state with full right of return being granted to the Palestinian diaspora.
In my opinion, Israel lacks legitimacy to continue as a state in itd current form, namely a system of racial segregation that is tantamount to apartheid, as reiterated by ICJ this July 19th.
I have no horse in this race, being neither Jewish, Arab, Muslim or Palestinian, but I stand firmly alongside the Palestinian People in the struggle for liberation and self-determination in their ancestral land, which they have been stewarding for time immemorial. Settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide are never justifiable and I will die on that hill. A hill that hopefully one day will again be home to fields of za'atar and majestic olive trees that will continue to nourish the Palestinian people for generations to come 🌳🇵🇸
It means a lot to know that the conversations I aim to foster resonate with you, especially in a space where genuine dialogue can often be hard to find. Apostate Aladdin and I both strive to bring nuance to these discussions, so I'm glad it's making a difference.
Your vision for a one-state solution, where all people are treated with equality and dignity, and Palestinians have a right to return, is a powerful one. I share your hope for a future where Palestinians and Israelis can live together, cultivating fields of za'atar and olive trees in peace. Your solidarity, despite not having a personal connection to the region, is truly inspiring and a reminder of the importance of standing up for justice wherever it’s needed.
Thank you again for your support-it's voices like yours that keep the hope for change alive.
As you know perfectly well and contrary to what theists claim, we atheists/agnostics/irreligious folks are perfectly capable of moral conduct and ethical evaluation of the circumstances that surround us.
In that sense, it is my human nature and my moral compass which compell me to stand up against oppression and to support those suffering it. It comes naturally to me, as I'm sure it does to you, when this emanates from an ethical code one arrives at and perfects through intellectual inquiry.
Again, I want to reiterate my full support to you as an apostate, a Palestinian and a beautiful human being.
P.S.: based on the first four letters of my account name, you'll figure out who I am on Instagram. I reached out to you there a while back 😊
Sending you much love and solidarity, Aleem ♥️
Beautifully done! It is so painful to think about what’s happening there!
Love this! ❤ And I rarely say this on videos about Israel Palestine because everything is so polarised out there.
I think it would be great to go on deeper with an Israeli on "generational trauma and hate from both sides, where each feels there can only be one victim and the other side is the oppressor "
Thanks so much for watching, Zara. It's a tough subject to navigate, so I'm glad you liked it a bit better than much of the polarising content out there. And I agree with your suggestion, I'm on the lookout for a good person, ideally Israeli, to explore those themes that came up in the video.
Israel could have guided Palestinians out of Islam.
It's not about ethnicity, as Arabs (Bedouins) in Israel live very well.
Islam is the only problem.
Islam is a problem, but it's not the primary problem. Taking people's homes and livelihoods through violence and political alliances is the primary problem.
Tragic story. Good video, Aleem. It felt like this guy kinda abused you on the phone, and I don't like that. We are all human, but not spiritually the same. This type of yelling can show an immaturity and an unwillingness to admit his wrongness. To be in the academic doesn't protect from imbecility unfortunately. Also, let's not forget that some human beings (few thankfully) are doing evil things, not talking about an evil force in the world, nor people being evil, just what humans are capable of doing. About politicians, I wonder how many are sincere in their words, because the trend seems to be the lie, the hypocrisy : telling one thing, while doing the opposite. And as you showed multiple examples, the vast majority of us want good in the world, want peace, want all people to be able to live decently and freely, with pure water and food, a shelter, protected, with access to health, education, with a promising future ahead of us. Thank you for having done this new video on this subject. I hope millions of people will watch it. :)
It means a lot to me that you noticed and empathized with the difficult aspects of that conversation. I agree-sometimes, even those in academic or seemingly rational spaces can display a lack of maturity or openness, especially when confronted with uncomfortable truths. And you're absolutely right-humans are capable of both incredible kindness and profound cruelty, depending on the choices they make.
I also share your skepticism about politicians and their sincerity. It's hard to ignore the hypocrisy when words and actions don’t align. But like you said, the majority of us want a better world-one where everyone can live with dignity, basic needs met, and the chance for a bright future. That's the vision that keeps me going, and I'm grateful for supportive voices like yours that keep these conversations alive.
Thank you again for watching, and for your hope that this message reaches millions. It means a lot! And maybe you can talk about this subject on your channel too!!
I don’t know if we could, or should, avoid emotions in this. The reason we even talk about this is because it causes pain to humans so trying to avoid the feelings and “both siding” the issue gives undue pressure to the victims and an undue benefit of the doubt to the perpetrators. I also had a class about colonialism in university and if we tried to talk about it “logically” we ended up up just looking past the active pain, which we could stop as Canadians, while we sit around and pretend we’re making a difference. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know that inviting Israel and Palestine to a tea party to discuss the issue cannot happen while Israel commits geno cide
I totally agree with you actually, Id' just add that it's more about not allowing the emotions to reach the point where anger/resentment leads to a refusal to compromise and to a dehumanizing of those on the "other side".
@@SecularSpiritI agree. I had a friend online from Israel and on the 7th of October this year they made a post about the anniversary and they didn’t count Palestinians in their death toll. I sent them a message just saying that I hope they’re doing okay and they talked about how Palestinians are never going to stop and they are barbarians that will never come to the table for peace. I pointed out the bad stuff Israel does and he immediately blocked me and kicked me from a server he owned. It is…. So sad that he is so brainwashed and I kinda regret bringing it up because he’s not in my life now but I know I stood up for what was right even if it was the bare minimum.
@@nepoleon92 That's so sad...and unfortunately it reflects the mentality, because he probably assumed you were antisemitic for bringing up those bad stuff that Israel does. With that mentality, it's hard to crack through to get anyone to listen. But I'm glad you stood up for what was right there, if we all did that, it would make a massive difference.
It all started with colonialism, over a century ago. The idea that other powers can invade and control other people's territories has caused so many problems.
I guess you're dismissing the Arab colonisation which began 1400 years ago? Israel is the beginning of the #rollback of Arab colonisation. The Allied Powers defeated the Ottoman Empire in 1918. The indigenous Jews fought on the side of the British, in return for the promise of being able to reconstitute their ancestral home in historic Palestine. Wars have consequences, especially when your side started the war and you lose 🙄.
@@sandytatham3592 Did you mean Islamic colonisation? Because Arabs have been living in that region for millenia, many of them Christians and Jews. In fact, Jews have been in the minority for 2000 years. Also, the Zionists were mainly NOT indigenous, but migrants from the Jewish diaspora.
@@sandytatham3592 Are you aware the British simultaneously promised the Arabs living in Palestine a homeland?
Indeed. It's a tragic part of human history, one that we need to stop doing as a species.
@@sandytatham3592 This is the duplicity of these "colonialism" claims. Despite Israel's population being a mixture of (among others) Middle Easterners, WW2 refugees and their descendants, along with migrants who legally moved there under the Ottomans and during the British mandate (plus more recently migrants from places like Russia), pro-Palestine people use this distinctly racist "colonialism" rhetoric, often with phrases like "go back to Europe". Should Arab people "go back to the Arabian peninsula", all those descendants of the settler colonialists who took over large swathes of North Africa and parts of the Middle East from where they are not native? Well no, because it seems some people have a special right to colonise other people's land. Couple that with the supremacist elements of Islam that says their followers must be the dominant power everywhere, it leaves you with vast numbers of people who will never compromise with Israel. Islamists like Hamas don't want a Palestinian state, they want a caliphate and see a Palestinian state as a stepping stone to that. How many other Palestinians feel that way, I don't know but the more of them that do, the less likely there will ever be peace.
I'm sorry you were yelled at. Therapy can really help, and I think it is needed. I've found many Palestinians differentiate Israel, zionism, and Jewish people. It's been refreshing as many supporters of the state do not. As I treat religion as a fundamentally emotional issue this political doctrine is a well. In some cases the doctrine is or similar to a person's religion. I think, instead of banging your head against a wall and talking to supporters, like religious followers, who might hit a point resistance, talking to people who left the cult would be more productive and satisfying. They would be able to communicate their motives and experiences and might be able to offer advice on if you should engage with supporters.
I wonder, and I'm guessing that when you suggested democratic, representation for all and one state that is the end of the state in supporters ears-because the doctrine is built on the majority and dominance of that one group, and population growth (or even a right to return for all) mean the end of that supremacy and that state built on it. A new and different state would have to come into existence.
I think the conflict can end when enough people can put pressure on governments and businesses to change policy. It's the simple matter of it hurts more to support the state than tolerate behaviors. People will lead the governments and businesses. That means persuasion. Today is a grim, sad day, thanks for this.
You're absolutely right-approaching these topics can feel like banging your head against a wall sometimes, especially when discussing it with people who are deeply entrenched in a particular mindset. I love your idea of engaging with those who've "left the cult" of rigid ideologies, as they can indeed offer unique insights that are both productive and meaningful. I keep track of all your email suggestions by the way, I'm hoping one of them works out, sometimes it's hard to get a hold of other content creators and activists.
Your point about how my suggestion of democratic representation (which by the way is not my proposed solution, but it was just a theoretical solution I was running by that individual) might be interpreted as the end of the state, from the perspective of some Israelis, resonates with me. The challenge lies in imagining a different future than the one we're creating right now.
I also agree that change will ultimately come when enough people put pressure on governments and corporations to shift their policies, making injustice too costly to sustain. As grim as today feels, the path forward will require patient persuasion, and I find hope in the fact that we are having conversations like this.
@@SecularSpirit Maoz Inon!
In the proximity where I live there have also been many examples of people being driven from their lands. One example, Karelia which used to belong to Finland and had a predominantly Finnish speaking population were expelled in 1944 after Finland lost the continuation war and sued for peace with the Sovietunion in 1944. 400.000 Karelians were displaced and had to flee to Finland within its new borders. These Karelians tried to keep their legacy alive and had dreams about one day returning but that dream faded with each new generation and today all but a fraction have completely assimilated with the majority Finnish population.
What did not happen was Karelians promoting hatred towards the Russian population in Karelia, creating armed militias, training suicide bombers, running around Viipuri (capital of Karelia) committing terrorist acts or firing home made rockets into Karelian territory. People accepted that war and fate had created a new situation which was out of their control and that they had to adapt to this new reality. War and fate has brought Palestinians where they are today. Perhaps one day Palestinians will adapt a more pragmatic approach instead of the constantly escalating cycle of violence and hatred and instead focus on bettering the lives of ordinary Palestinians and select leaders that work on achieving these goals.
I think it's terrible that Finnish people were ethnically cleansed from Karelia, but I don't know very much about that. I think there are really important differences between the Palestinian situation and the Finnish situation that explains their different reaction, but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me. Most, literally more than half, of the land that was Palestine before 1948 became a Jewish state even though the overwhelming majority of the people living there were non-Jewish Palestinians. The overwhelming majority of the Jewish population of Israel came from other places very recently while most Palestinians had very deep roots in Palestine. I think Jewish people are indigenous to that land as well, but it's easy to see the Palestinian perspective that they have a right to the whole land that was Palestine in 1947. Furthermore, there has been terrorism in the name of independence movements by white/European people very recently. For example, there was a lot of Irish terrorism before they gained their independence and there hasn't been an independent Palestinian state, so it makes sense that they would react similarly. Irish people have not been murdered and oppressed like Palestinians in recent memory, so it makes sense that they are reacting even more radically.
@@Andrew_Young I really like your open and understanding perspective on this, I have misgivings on your point about how Jewish people have a right to the land, I worry what is implied by "right", especially if we were to apply that same rationale to the rest of the world and how peoples have come and gone, usually using violence. It's a crucial discussion topic.
I wonder about that too, adapt and assimilate. It's the same argument that some have made to Indigenous people in Canada, and it has been described as something that will erase their culture and way of life. Is that a price worth paying, I suppose that's the debate.
@@Andrew_Young , There are quite a few similarities actually. Before the war the population in Karelia was Finnish speaking Karelians with a small Russian minority and afterwards it became the total opposite with only a miniscule amount of Karelians remaining. You could also claim that Russians colonized and ethnically cleansed the area. People all over the world has dabbled in terrorism and it happened, not in Karelia proper, but further up North in the sparsely populated areas north of lake Ladoga. During the war regular army troops on both sides conducted massacres on the civilian population in manners that cannot be described as anything but terrorism. This of course ended completely after the war. The biggest difference is that Finland and Karelia are not independent entities by their own, and if Karelians had dealt with the situation like the Palestinians the consequences would have been severe since that would have required dealing with the USSR and later Russia directly and that would have ended badly for Karelians and Finns alike and most likely got all Karelians expelled from Finland.
@@SecularSpirit , I am gonna be a little harsh in this response but hopefully not mean. First of all , Palestinians in Gaza don't really have to assimilate to anything. Its almost one hundred percent Palestinian unlike Israel where twenty percent of the population have Arab background. Palestinians in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Kuwait had the chance to integrate and adapt but choose instead to continue the cycle of violence with all what that entails. There is a reason why these countries no longer allow Palestinians to enter. Especially in Kuwait Palestinians made the foolhardy decision to side with Saddam and Iraq and then later getting expelled from the country once it was liberated. And sure, the debate about integration and assimilation is a long, hard and complicated one but at the end one has to start looking at options for Palestinians. Is the current route the right one or should they perhaps be looking for alternatives for the betterment of ordinary Palestinians.
Peace222
Why did you use ai bro, this is horrendous 😭
Your feedback has been noted haha 😅
@@SecularSpirit Maybe you can find an angry Israeli who’ll agree to be photographed? 😂
Hamas Covenant 1988 Article ONE: The movement's programme is ISLAM. From it, it draws its ideas, way of thinking.....Then if you don't quote the quran, you don’t quote the Hamas Covenants, you don’t quote the hadiths, you don't quote the words of the Hamas leaders, you don't quote the textbooks used by UNWRA, you don’t quote the Reliance of the Traveller, while speaking about this conflict.....KNOW THAT IT'S YOU WHO WEARS THE PANTY AT HOME.
I'm an ex-muslim, very pro-israel and although I disagree with many of your perceptions of Israel in this video and I think you're too biased against Israel, blind to Palestinian provocations which make Israel actions seem neccessary to Israelis, blind to how Palestinians have no crisis of conscience while conscience is constantly invoked against Israelis and many other points.
So even though I disagreed, I upvoted. The last few minutes of this video genuinely encapsulate a true way out of this conflict. I hope you can come to emphasize that, rather than several other points over-emphasizing Israel's power alone to end this conflict even as its surrounded by terrorist threats to which it already displays a lot of restraint.
I wonder if you'd be open to a conversation on this topic with me, an ex-muslim zionist.
I'd hate to see what Israel would be like without "a lot of restraint" 😅Which side has the fourth strongest military and hundreds of billions of aid from the US, I'll ask you that too. With great power, comes a great crisis of conscience and cognitive dissonance. Sure, I'd be open to a conversation. You can email me (my email is in my About page)
You're biased because you're ex muslim
@SecularSpirit
I think I understand why that individual got very upset when you mentioned your idea of a one-state solution. In fact, I'm more surprised at your surprise to his reaction, than at his own reaction. Like you said, it is about control. But you make it sound like israelis do not have very good reasons to want to control the state they live in. A one-state would likely mean jews would be a minority. Their recent (and not so recent) history has solidified for them the idea that they are not safe as minorities in any country. Their experience as minorities in the surrounding arab states is no exception. The fact that there is no example of any arab (one might even argue any muslim state) with a democratic form of government, or even any examples with thriving non-muslim minorities also doesn't help.
So Israelis have very good reasons for taking away the rights and freedoms of millions of people, is that what you are saying? They were oppressed as a minority historically so they decided the next time they were a minority, they'd be the oppressors...which I agree is what they've done. That doesn't make it right, though, and what the Israeli state is doing is in violation of UN resolutions and international law, is it not? And lastly, there's a lot of reasons why many Arab/Muslim countries, as well as other developing/third world countries don't have a democratic form of government, and it has to do with religion, but a lot to do with the interference and backing of coups from countries like the US.
@@SecularSpirit No, that is not what I am saying at all. I simply said that his objection to a one-state solution is legitimate and understandable. I do not find that objections to a two-state solution are legitimate. Nor do I think the illegal settlements tolerated or supported by the Israeli government are legitimate.
But a one-state solution is simply a non-starter.
@@m0stbel0veds0n He didn't just object though...he lost his temper and yelled over and over again. You could make arguments that I'm wrong and agree to disagree, I'd accept that, but his kind of attitude is the actual non-starter, not the one-state solution.
@@SecularSpirit I'm sure his reaction did not help the conversation, but I very much doubt that you would get much traction with the one-state idea even with calm and collected Israelis.
There are also people who would support the illegal settlements and demand the eviction of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank (a from-the-river-to-the-sea in reverse), on grounds that Arabs already got a state out of the British mandate (i.e., Jordan). I'm sure you would agree that would also be a non-starter and would cause quite a lot of angry reactions on the Palestinian side (again, justifiably).
@@SecularSpirit I replied yesterday, but for some reason it didn't get through. TLDR: I don't know why you don't see the one-state solution as a non-starter. There are non-starter solutions from the other side as well, including the one supported by the illegal settlers: take everything, because the Arabs already got Jordan out of the British Mandate. I'm sure you would agree that's a non-starter, so why not the one-state as well?
you are the perfect example of why this will never come to a conclusion. because just like anybody else you "try" to see the whole picture but....internal biasing kicks in inevitably. In my opinion Israel has gone overboard with trying to accommodate, avoid conflict and live in peace. They came from wherever they were scattered in the world and they came tired of conflict, violence and evil. And they came to their homeland which was taken away from them by greater Empires: Roman, Islamic, Ottoman. All these Empires have used their might to evict the Jews from their own land and keep them from ever being owners of their own land and worship according to their own religion. And yet the time of Roman, Islamic and Ottoman colonizing has come to an end and they finally were able to return to the land of their ancestors, rebuild it, and be masters of their own destiny, worshipping freely (actually not quite entirely freely).
But, that didn't sit well with Muslims and with Islam. And that is the real problem: Islam and it's teachings, a constant source of fuel for this conflict. The rest is just cover-up.
It didn't sit well with the local population because they saw an attempt to move an entire other population into the area at their expense, it's really that simple. I'm descended from people who lived there for centuries, you know. But now moving forward, the solution has to be one that incorporates everyone, and Israel has the dominant power to push for this solution.
@SecularSpirit today's Palestinians should be aware of the fact that Jerusalem has been built and inhabited by Jews for millenia. Islamic and Ottoman Empire allowed Muslims to settle after the vast majority of Jews were kicked out. The remaining ones had no right to build synagogue or to own land. They had no rights to go to their Temple (and still don't). I think it's right to say that coming back to their ancestral homeland is no crime. I also think it's fair to say that even though the Arab Muslims had lived in what is today Israel they were living in a land that was conquered. If today's Palestinians identify with ancient Philistines then that is also an empty claim because all history mentions Philistines living in Gaza and surrounding area having as neighbor....Israel.
@SecularSpirit oh, and I forgot to mention one more important thing: contrary to what some claim the solution to this conflict lies solely with the Muslims. Israel has always claimed in international conventions that is willing to make peace giving that they are offered reasonable peace terms. The best example of their willingness to make peace is the treaty with Egypt and the returning of Sinai peninsula. History has shown that it's not the Jews/Israel who attacks indiscriminately but rather that they were attacked first followed by cries of mercy and ceasefire, when the attack didn't turned out to be successful. Every single time. It's just that they had enough of this game where their lives are always considered cheap and expandable but the attackers lives are sacred. The ball is in the Islamic/Muslim arena. I suggest that Muslims should be told to learn to live Israel alone and mind their own business. Otherwise it will ever end and we will see this repeating over and over.
@@liviuconstantin9960 I recommend two books to you: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Palestine
and: www.amazon.com/Line-Sand-James-Barr-Sir/dp/1847394574
I agree with almost everything you said. Of course, I agree the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are colonies however, I don't really see Jewish people moving to Israel as colonization since I see Jewish people as indigenous to that land and they didn't already have a country that they were expanding. Since Israel already exists I do see expanding into the West Bank as colonization, but before Israel existed I don't see Jewish people moving to Palestine and seeking independence from Palestine as colonization.
Even the founding Zionists themselves called it colonialism
I do not get what you mean by "before Israel existed I don't see Jewish people moving to Palestine and seeking independence from Palestine as colonization.". Just because yuo do not have a country of your own, does not give you the right to go another place and get it under your control, build another country there, while other people have already been living there. So, do you allege Roma people could come and get your land, found and independent country, as they do not have an ethnicity based country of their own? That makes no sense.
@@canaygibi8924 I didn't say it's okay I said it's not colonization. From what I understand Roma are indigenous to India and I'd be just as sympathetic to Roma having a state in India as Jewish people having Israel. I live in Canada and I'm totally fine with Indigenous people having more land. I'm against ethnic cleansing everywhere so the Naqba was evil and shouldn't have happened and frankly should be prosecuted, but Jews having a right of return to Palestine and then gaining independence I have no problem with. If Native Canadians moved into my neighborhood and became a majority and wanted independence I'd be fine with that as long as I'm not ethnically cleansed from my home.
Glad you agree with most of what I said, and it's true that Jewish people were there once (and, actually, some Jewish people have always lived there,) but the issue is the Zionist project that came with very specific goals in mind regarding what to do with the Arabs in that land. And that was undoubtedly a colonizing project even if they didn't view it as one.
@@SecularSpirit "...it's true that Jewish people were there once (and, actually, some Jewish people have always lived there,)"
I definitely agree that some Jewish people have always been in Palestine. I don't think the fact that Jewish people were there once makes them indigenous to the area. Romans were there once, but they were definitely not indigenous. What makes most Jews indigenous is that almost all of the Jewish communities around the world can trace their origins to the Middle East.
"...but the issue is the Zionist project that came with very specific goals in mind regarding what to do with the Arabs in that land. And that was undoubtedly a colonizing project even if they didn't view it as one."
I see that particular aspect of Zionism as ethnic cleansing and I've never been in favour of that. Displacing Palestinians so that Jews can move into their homes and lands is ethnic cleansing and I'm solidly against that and I think the Naqba should be prosecuted. The thing that I don't think is bad is Jews moving back. Jews moving to Palestine doesn't displace Palestinians it just adds more people to the area.
youtube.com/@rudyrochman
I think I would really be interested in a conversation between you and Rudy. I feel like Rudy has somewhat similar viewpoints but from the Israeli side.
On a personal note, I appreciate your perspective. There has to be a way forward where there is peace. I recognize though that this middle perspective is likely to be hated by both sides. Good luck.
Thanks for recommending this, I'll check out Rudy's channel - I really do want to talk about this issue with someone on the Israeli side.
This middle perspective won't be popular or easy, I guess that's why it hasn't been reached yet. But we have to change this status quo!
I favour the proposal that former US Ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, has set out in his new book #OneJewishState. That Israel extend sovereignty over Judea and Samaria (but not Gaza) and offer 'permanent resident status' to the occupants. That would give them equal civil rights, access to the same education, healthcare, employment, security as Israeli citizens, and a large degree of autonomy in their Arab cities. But it would not give them national voting rights. The next generation could be given a pathway to full Israeli citizenship if they can pledge allegiance to the *Jewish* state of Israel. Those who reject this offer should be assisted to resettle in another country. What are your thoughts on this, Secular Spirit? Are you from Gaza or the West Bank?
I'm from the West Bank. Here's my one main issue: the way the Israeli state works, you cannot have true full rights as a citizen UNLESS you are Jewish. For example, big chunks of the country cannot be lived in unless you are Jewish. You'd always be a secondary citizen as a non-Jew, so if that were to change at the constitutional level, then sure.
@@SecularSpirit: I agree that racial and cultural discrimination does exist in Israel, but can you name one country where there is NO discrimination at all? The important thing is that there are *no laws which discriminate on the basis of race or religion*, with the exception that military service is not compulsory for Arab Israelis. And even with the discrimination that does exist, the majority of Israeli Arabs say they would never choose to live in an Arab or Muslim-majority state. Do you think you might be holding Israel to a _higher standard_ than other countries?
My main concern is for the future generations of Arab children who live in the West Bank and Gaza. If they were given the same opportunities as Israeli Arab children, they could thrive and prosper. Though I do understand that the western idea of 'thrive and prosper' is a bit different to the Islamic one...🙄
Bro there was a time when there was no check points or walls between Gaza and Israel what happened? Maybe you should look up how Palestinian intifada changed everything.
Gaza have a government and that’s Hamza Israel don’t control their government. Israel only control half of Gaza electricity and remember Egypt also control southern part of Gaza border.
Palestinians went to war against Israel in 1948 and lost hence why they lost their home and territory, war do have consequences and no one wants to live in same house with his enemy being the majority.
I understand the plight of the Palestinians and Israel has committed their own fair share of atrocities but we’ve to be objective, Palestinians has cause their own problems by themselves more than any other ppl in the world. They could’ve used the billions of dollars send to them in aid to build their part of the region but they only use it for sadistic intentions.
Europeans expelled and ethnically cleansed Palestinians from their land to build a 'homeland' (settler colony) based on a delusional book. What the fvck are you saying? People like you would justify slavery and the gen0c1de of the indigenous people of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
*Antifada, *Hamas
You might want to spell your propaganda correctly if you want people to think you're informed on the topic.
@@ImaginaryMdA There’s no propaganda here, history isn’t propaganda bro.
@@ImaginaryMdA Nope, it's still intifada. It's Arabic, you know, nothing to do with antifa, which you might have confused it with.
@@Tosin226: As @truthfinder said above, "wars have consequences". The Arabs of Palestine fought on the side of the Ottoman Turks and they LOST that war in 1918. The Ottomans *ceded* their land to the British and French. The British and French were under no obligation in 1918 to give that land to the occupants but they did. The #indigenous Jews fought with the British and were promised the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland, so long as the Arabs and other occupants civil and religious rights were not compromised. Today over TWO MILLION Arabs live in the *Jewish* state of Israel, with equal rights under the law. Israel is less than 1% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land. The Hejazi Arabs also fought with the British Lawrence of Arabia and they were given 99% of that land, today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Israel is an "indigenous rights" success story, and the beginning of the rollback of Arab imperialism.
You are showing videos about them calling those who attack on the 7th of Oct Animals...well can you please quote verse 98:6 of the quran for me?
My friend I’ve started watching your videos to see if my faith is wrong and I can’t even believe how you interpreted Christianity. It’s a shame that somehow you have associated fear with the Christian story, when it is the complete opposite of that.
Christianity is built on fear sadly, I hope you see that one day. It is designed to comfort our fears of death, our fears that life might be meaningless, our fear suffering having no purpose...think about these things and how they might give you your faith. And think what happens to people who reject Jesus.
@@SecularSpirit You say designed as if one person put together the bible, when it’s multiple authors and writers all coming to the same conclusion. I’m pretty sure to be a Christian you have to accept the love of Christ through his ultimate sacrifice, and in return share his love with others. How does that play into human fear? If anything it plays into the innate human desire for unconditional love.
@@SecularSpiritAt the very least for Christianity you acknowledge that a Christian worldview with meaning, purpose, love and joy is more appealing than the one you currently have.
I think if you’re being honest with yourself you desire a worldview like that, you want your life to mean something. But if your consistent in your wordview it ultimately doesn’t. I think you should read the book of ecclesiastes from the Bible. It delves into meaning deeply and it turned me into a Christian.
@@SecularSpirit Life without God is ultimately meaningless but are you yourself not evidence that you want meaning despite knowing that? You have a whole TH-cam channel brother!!
Does that not show you that despite your logical conclusion of life being meaningless, deep down you believe that to be false? If not the only question you must answer is why continue living?
I think the Christian story is so absurd and emotionally charged with everything a human could ask for is what in itself makes it true. Because that is the Christian story. It’s like the ultimate Myth except it’s actually grounded in loads of history and prophecy from the Old Testament.
@@SecularSpirit Also as for Hell, I think we see it completely differently. Hell to me is a reassurance from God that ultimate justice does infact exist. Good triumphs over evil. Secondly nobody will be in hell that didn’t want to be there in the first place.
Using you as an example, you clearly have decided to reject the notion of God, his love for you and his sacrifice, whilst having full knowledge of Jesus Christ and access to knowing him. Therefore you will be judged differently from someone who never heard the name Jesus Christ. The Gospel and the accounts make it clear that everyone has the law written in their hearts and will be judged according to what they have done. People from the Old Testament didn’t know Jesus Christ but in humility put their faith in God and we’re saved.
You are actively choosing to spend your eternity away from God. And I don’t think a truly loving God would force you to be with him. Free Will. Jesus Christ was the reconciliation between us and God. I accepted the gift, you didn’t. That doesn’t make God a moral monster. That makes him just and loving.
😘