I was in the Navy and no, I wouldn't. After meeting a good amount of submariners, I think I made the right choice. They tend to be a bit, ummm, "different".
I would want to...the food is great and they are on the front lines all the time...but I would never make it through the screening for claustrophobia. 💯
No it was not standard to veer. The torps were very poorly designed. A normal torpedo from both Japan and Germany while yes had a few failures not nearly as much.
The Mk 14 torpedo was a disaster and a half. Drachinifel has a documentary on the Mk 14, and everyone who loves military history needs to check it out.
Came here to say exactly this. Bump for Drach - Mr Terry, PLEASE, check out Drach's channel, and his mk 14 video in particular. Even if you decide not to make a reaction video from it (it is admittedlty much longer than most reaction videos accommodate), I guarantee you will be both entertained and fascinated.
The US military absolutely went through the Panama Canal, the Iowa class battleships were built within inches of clearance to transverse the canal. If I remember correctly, the US just gave back control of the canal to Panama within the last 5-10 years
Not only that, but the Japanese considered it absolutely vital to America's logistics to the point that the only mission the I-400 class submarine aircraft carriers were sent on was to attempt to bomb the canal. The mission was a failure, but it could have been a serious blow to American logistics in the Pacific if it hadn't taken place so late in the war and the ships had managed a successful attack
If you want an interesting video on why the MK 14 Torpedo. I would recommend is called The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions by Drachinifel. The torpedo has many problems and was developed during the Great Depression. The main problems stem from money and not testing the weapon.
The mark 14 torpedo had like 80% of failure rate, so yeah it was pretty high and frustrating at the same time Edit: yes the navy does use the Panama Canal
Mostly down. It was a problem with the placement of the depth sensor, they stupidly stuck it at the ass-end of the torpedo, where a low-pressure bubble would form like the vacuum behind a bullet, making the torpedo run deep.
Mark 14's would indeed just randomly veer off their directed course, with at least two accounts of them boomeranging all the way back causing ships to adopt evasive maneuvers to dodge their own torpedoes. 😬
@@Vyrexuviel Three subs confirmed to have been lost this way, with up to 14 others suspected. *Edit. Two confirmed not three. USS Tang (SS-306), and USS Tullibee (SS-284) were both lost to inadvertent circular routes. Which was actually a design option, but was supposed to be difficult to set, because of the threat. Again, up to 14 are suspected as sinking from the same malfunction, as no Japanese naval countermeasures were recorded despite being in close proximity to the lost subs last known locations.
I was a weapons loader on F16s and once had to 4 man lift a 350 lb AIM 120 over head to load it. I can only imagine what it was like loading a torpedo on a sub in the middle of battle! My hat definitely is off to them!
Until the supercarriers, all of the US capital ships were constrained to the size of the Panama canal in their designs because they used the Panama canal to get ships from the Atlantic fleet to the Pacific fleet and vice versa. Believe it was actually a push for it to be built because several ships had to travel around the full length of South America just to get involved in the Spanish-American war. The last battleship design the Montana class would have needed the canal to be expanded, unlike the Iowa class which just barely cleared the canal. Also here are some oversimplifications of some of the problems with the US Mark 14 torpedo: -Never had a live fire test during development, and was only ever tested in one location. -Would run deep because it only ever was tested with concrete dummy warhead. That was lighter than the actual warhead. -The torpedo would strike with enough speed and force that it would deform/destroy the contact detonator, before it could trigger the explosives -The magnetic detonators were extremely sensitive and could prematurely detonate (Resulting from how tests were only in one location). -Bureau of Ordinance refused to believe any claims against their prized mark 14 design. Additionally the BoO would lash out at personal who went against the orders to not modify the settings to fix some issues. If you want a very in depth review of the Mark 14. Drachenifel has a nice video "The Mark 14: Failure is like onions"
Pretty sure the Montana class was either going to be a simple upgraded version of the Iowa? Unless im mistaken and no plans were officially selected for the hull and tonnage
@@tylerdurden788The fact Burton was able to make those claims, trying to absolve himself, and get away with it, and then having a whole movie made from it, is pretty bad.
@@xGoodOldSmurfehx You may be thinking of the Illinois and Kentucky which were originally going to be part of the Montana class but were quickly reordered as modified Iowa designs shortly after the Montana design actually got authorization. Initial Montana designs called for twelve 16inch guns with enough armor to withstand the US super heavy 16 inch shell. Those designs were constrained by limitations of the previous inter war treaties, but when war broke out in Europe the designs quickly grew in size, and by the time the Montana got authorization for construction in mid 1940 it was already wider than the 110ft canal with a width of 115ft. Additionally due to repeated delays in starting construction that design kept getting modified which even outgrew the available shipyards.
If I remember correctly, there was an interview with crew members of an Iowa class, I believe. And they said how there was a single foot of clearance on either side, hearing the ship scrape the sides as they went.
When I was an adjunct professor at the local university I had a pair of students who were so bad at cheating that I caught it as they put the assignment on my desk. Printer paper is slightly translucent so I could see as they sat their papers on top of each other that they were identical. They tried to argue even after I held the papers up to the light to show them it was identical except for the names at the top.
The Mark 14 ran deeper than it was supposed to for 2 reasons: all the test runs were with dummy warheads that were lighter than the real warheads (for cost saving reasons, to re-use the torpedoes), and the depth gauge was placed far enough back on the torpedo that air pressure around the torpedo interfered with the water pressure it was supposed to read. The magnetic detonator was calibrated too tightly and didn't take into account the fact the earth's surface has different bands of magnetism, interfering with the detonator. The gyroscope did not function properly, causing the torpedoes to veer off course and sometimes circle back to sink the sub that shot the torpedo. The firing pins were too thin and weak, causing a head-on hit to have a high chance of crumpling the firing pin instead of plunging it into the detonator, so a glancing blow was more likely to actually make the torpedo explode than a direct hit would. There were so many problems that it took a long time of "fix this problem to find that problem", and that was AFTER the bureaucrats finally admitted that hey, maybe there actually is something wrong with these torpedoes we love so much.
The US did send ships through the Panama canal during WW2. The Japanese made aircraft carrier submarines the I-400, I-401, and I-402 to launch a surprise attack on Panama canal. The submarines could carry 3 planes each would surface, open the hanger to pull one plane out, then attach floats that are stored separately before takeoff, then repeat.
23:24 So I did some research. At the time of Ramage's Rampage (7-31-44), it looks like the US had sunk ten of Japan's carriers, leaving eight in service. Four more would be built before the end of the war.
The Mark-14 torpedo was the worst one ever. The US has to redesign the whole torpedo in the middle of the war. Many war movies in the 1950s and 1960s actually mention this.
The American torpedoes early during the war was INFAMOUSLY bad, but once the US got working torpedoes they inflicted HEAVY loses to the Japanese Imperial Navy and merchant fleet. It got so bad Tokyo Bay wasn't safe. in 1944 a submarine sunk the Shinano (a Yamato class hull converted to a Carrier) six hours on her first voyage. Another Submarine took out a Japanese train on one of the Japanese Home Islands.
3:00 i was the student who was either absent, has a 0% tuen in rate, or never did the classwork and got 105% on nearly every test... And after getting tested, came in at above intellect, and was placed in rooms by myself for a week to see if i was cheating... Never once have i cheated
38:1338:13 I could be wrong, but I think the animations are from the Pacific War Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas. They definitely have that style, at least. Worth a two-day trip because that's how long it takes to experience everything. The final room with the nuclear bomb replica definitely gives a sense of "What have we done?" And the timeline leading up to and the Pearl Harbor attack are no slouches, either.
You would have hated me as a student. I never cheated, never did the assignments or readings and just passed every test with no score below 95. I just retain knowledge I’ve heard from lectures. Even when half asleep, and constantly my teacher would wake me up mid lecture and ask me to repeat what was said and I’d nail it and they would just throw their hands up in defeat. Eventually they just stopped trying.
Same. After a few weeks I was allowed to just sit in the back and sleep or read in most classes. Too many teachers think you're trying to be a pain, unmotivated, or just don't care. For many people who just slide by with test scores it's usually boredom with the standard school structure. The "no child left behind" policy actually left those students behind. Nice idea, but poor implementation with horrible repercussions for society.
@@79scythe yes absolutely correct while trying to make education more attainable they brought down the standards and made it unbearable for the people who needed to be challenged. They still don’t have enough challenging programs and my youngest gets bored because she learned the material the first day.
Oh yes the military used, and continues to use the Panama canal. It's an absolutely vital link in the military's logistics chain. It's the only fast way to move ships and cargo between the Atlantic and Pacific. The US rail network is impressive but it can't handle anywhere near the amount of cargo volume ships can.
The Mk14 torpedos were *atrociously* bad. They were designed to detonate underneath the keel of ships, but labratory testing failed to account for how magnetic fields changed around the world. Several US subs were sunk by faulty explosions. They also wouldn't detonate underneath wooden cargo ships. The problem was that everyone knew they sucked, but the head of the Pacific Fleet was *also* on the committee that designed and procured them. It was a whole big thing at the time. In contrast, the Japanese torpedos were *terrifyingly* effective.
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor WAS successful to a point. The Japanese had hoped to catch America's Aircraft carriers at Pearl but as luck would have it they weren' t there.
I still think my favorite part of the whole pacific theater was that America was so pissed about Pearl Harbor that they went from a crippled navy to the largest in the world in the span of two years...
At 5:45 it is stated that the Pearl Harbor attack left the US with no naval warfare capability but the submarines. Even as hyperbole, that is inaccurate, as the aircraft carriers were away from Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, and thus they were available to be used at the Battle of Midway, which occurred not long after Pearl Harbor.
I had a buddy that was a nuclear engineer on a sub around 2010 he said it was the coolest shitty job he ever had. He loved the job but living on a sub just sucked
To supplement this video, you should check out Drachinifel and his video on the MK14 torpedo. It provides a lot of clarifying detail about US submarine warfare and success in WWII
The Mk 14 torpedo was a guided weapon. When FE says the torpedo veered off course, he means the torpedo turned the wrong way. Also, you might be surprised how much control Rammage would have. Even today, Admirals are stationed on Aircraft Carriers, but those Carriers have their own Captains. The Captain can and will defy the Admiral at times, because the safety and operation of the ship is the Captain's chief responsibility.
Incorrect, the mk14 is a dead fire design. Yes, it has a gyroscope in it, but that is there to supposedly prevent it from veering off course at launch. Once launched, it has no way of changing course in an attempt to increase hit chance as it has no sensors itself and is not partially wire guided like some modern torpedoes.
@@nicolivoldkif9096 I stand corrected. I was thinking of the gyroscope as a rudimentary form of guidance - at least to maintain heading - but that was maybe a generous description of it.
Wasn't there a story about how someone literally held a demonstration about Mark14 failure rates AT the Bureau of Ordnance by hanging a live torpedo from a crane and dropping it down to ground to simulate direct hit (which was the band-aid solution suggested by the BoO at the time) - the torpedo didn't blow up.
For those curious about just how awful and unreliable the MK14 was I cannot recommend Drachinifel video on it enough. Or just any of his videos, they’re all great.
One thing to keep in mind about naval combat is the large distances that battles are fought at. Battles often happen between ships that are many miles away from each other, so any slight deviation or miscalculation makes it near impossible to hit a target from that distance.
Some of us once called submarines home. Not everyone is claustrophobic. Requirements have changed quite a lot since WWII. I considered it the best duty in the Navy. You cannot be drafted into the Submarine Service it is and has, to the best of my knowledge, always been entirely voluntary.
Yeah, the mark 14 was notoriously a bad torpedo. It cost us a lot. If designed properly, we would have sunk or damaged significantly more ships during the first two years of our involvement. It wasn't until towards the end of 43 that it was fixed.
My husband had a shipmate who tried to do aircrew with the Navy. They said she couldn’t do it because she had to have 20/20 vision incase she needs to land the plane. Her job was sitting in the back and do a job that has nothing to do with flying the plane…. She said if I have to land the plane you have bigger issues than my vision 😂
In the early times of world war two , american torpedo's had about a %50 success rate I am writing this message as I watch your video. Yes the american military used the panama canal during world War 2
Out of college, I looked into the Navy. The recruiter kept suggesting nuclear propulsion, nuclear ordinance, and nuclear engineering. That means they want you for a sub. With a history degree I was thinking clerk, quartermaster, etc. I could handle a visit on a sub but 6 mths. no sunlight or stars is not for me. I backed out. I LOVE BEING ON A SHIP but that is on the surface.
I've been on the USS Bowfin at Pearl Harbor, visited her last year and if you're the slightest bit tall like I am at 5"11 you have to duck and dodge all sorts of values and have to almost kneel to get through the doorways aboard, the Bowfin was launched Dec 7th 1942, sank 16 Japanese ships and was nicknamed the Pearl Harbor Avenger. I also would suggest looking at the Sub Memorial on battleship row, where all subs based out of Pearl that went missing are listed and on Eternal Watch.
to your point about cheating around 2:45 i never cheated, but you're describing how i was as a student. I hated doing homework so i never did, but i always passed my tests. I had my ap english teacher keep me after class to yell at me for 20 minutes because she had to pass me due to my final exam score when i hadn't done any homework the entire year. i ended up getting a 250% on my final exam, which was worth half of my grade for the entire class. how did i get a 250%? she added 200 bonus questions to the test that were worth 1% each as a way to give students a chance to bump their grade a little bit. i crushed the test and most of the bonus questions before i ran out of time.
I would have gone on ballistic missile subs ... they swap crews every time they go out on patrol, so get much more time on shore than I did on an aircraft carrier..
I do like how you specify " You the person that has done no work, not paid attention, not came to class AND has failed everything else." Because I did this crap in high school for my AP Calc, AP Calc 2 and AP Trig that had the same teacher every year. I'd LITERALLY never do homework, I'd go to sleep in class EVERY DAY, I didn't skip class(I LOVED that class.[Wonder why]) and I would pass every quiz/test with over a 100 and would wind up passing her class every year with a grade higher than 100 and I literally never cheated. She tested me several times to make sure, like one time she handed out a pop quiz and every student in the class had different questions entirely on the quiz so it was impossible to cheat off of someone else and watched me like a hawk. I finished that quiz as well as every other quiz/test within the first 5 minutes of handing it out, first person done everytime, went back to my desk and went to sleep. At first she hated me cuz she thought I wasn't trying or didn't care, but she eventually figured out that I could just watch her go through one example the first day of new material and immediately understood it entirely. So I'd stay awake for like 5 minutes or so at the start of class when we started covering something new and would proceed to sleep the rest of the hour and the entire hour for the next eight days and then stay awake 5 minutes on the ninth day to do the test, turn it in and then pass out for the rest of the hour. She even tried to get my parents to make me do homework, but they asked a TON of questions about my grades in class which concluded with BOTH my parents AND the teacher learning that halfway through the year, I could make a 0 on every piece of homework, quiz AND test and STILL PASS her class, my dad looked at me and told me RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER that as long as I pass with a good grade, he didn't care what I did. Just keep at least a B or better. I passed that specific class at the end of the year with an average grade of 117. btw, she gave out bonus points all the time on test to help students if she needed our parents to sign something +5 Points, do this +7, etc. That's how I made over a 100 on all the test, I'd get 100% right plus easy peasy bonus points. At one point she held me after class and told me if I didn't do at least some homework that she would just stop handing out bonus points. I told her that's not fair, not for me, for everyone else, especially those struggling to learn the material, if you did that, I would turn in less than 10% of the total homework to retain my grade or just not care to do it and take a B, I can afford that burden easily, It'd take me maybe 30-60 minutes to do al that homework at once, and I'd just do it in class so I didn't take my free time away. However all your other students currently barely passing would fail your class entirely and almost half of your class would fail. Is that really what you want? Is that fair to them, to punish them immensely just to "TRY" to punish me SLIGHTLY if at all? Is that REALLY worth it to you? She then backed down when she saw I was more concerned about how that'd effect the other students rather than myself. She grew to love me though, she saw how I'd help the others learn the material and tell them not to just ask HOW you got to the next step, but also WHY you do it that way/order and recommended her to explain to them both how to do it and why you should be doing it that way and it started clicking more for the others. She knew I wasn't cheating, it just didn't challenge me at all and came easy to me, but I never caused her problems in the class. She quit asking me for my homework and every concurrent year she'd increase the percentage of the total grade that homework was worth just to try and make me do some homework. It never worked. Last year I was there was the first year I ever turned in any homework and I literally turned in 5 pieces of homework all at once that I did in that one day in her classroom just to knock my total grade from an 89 to a 91. Let's just say she gave up at that point homework was worth 40% of your final grade, she wouldn't let homework be equal to test. xD She told me at the end of that year that if she knew that is how it'd turn out, she never would have changed it because she changed it each year trying to make me do homework. I told her I knew that, I took it as a challenge.
Speaking of cheating eyesight test, my dad once also cheated on one (I don't remember, why he did that, that's not my problem) by going even more convincing than our protagonist, that is switching hands to cover the same eye previously covered.
Hey Terry, something that may be an interesting project (if the school would allow) is to have your students pick a Fat Electrician video (or other youtuber) about a specific incident, and do a report on the impact that incident would likely have had on the larger picture given what was happening at the time. Like you were saying in this video, the oil tankers and oil, how the loss would impact the Japanese fleet and the Japanese ability to continue the war. Would also (potentially) be a good way to get more familiar with the individual incidents that make up the overall picture you are more familiar with. I enjoy your videos, and hope so see you on the Unsubscribe podcast with Nic (the fat electrician). I think it'd be pretty cool so see you hanging out with them and talking history!
I was in the Navy, and there is no way in hell I would serve on a sub. Since subs are volunteer, it wasn't gonna happen. I did serve on an amphibious ship during Desert Storm, and later on an aircraft carrier. (preferred the amphib)
If I were to return to the navy, I would want to be on a supply ship again. If my ship were hit then no one on board would know, and there would be no fear of having to live the rest of my life with debilitating injuries. If one blows up it takes 15 minutes for the water to fill in the gap left in the water.
Do you ever show his videos to any of your highschool students??? I honestly think this would be amazing to get kids more interested in history watching videos from Nic!
The Mk 14 torpedo magnetic detonator didnt work, and the impact detonators broke on impact rather than firing. Also, the depth control was bad and the torpedoes ran deeper than they were set ... and would pass underneath the target rather than hitting it.
If you think this is fun, look up Animarchy History's "History of USS Enterprise" Also, if you want more background on the Mark 14, please react to Drachinifel's "The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions"
the mk14 torpedo had 4 major flaws. the first was the magnetic trigger didn't work at all. so any attempt to fire torps at a depth to break the ships keel (basically shooting them under the ship, when they blow up from the magnetic detector they crack the heel and sink it). the second problem was the torpedoes ran about 6' deeper then set; something it took a long time to figure out. the third problem was the contact trigger was too weak in it's construction, so if the torpedo hit the ship square it would break the pin and the warhead wouldn't explode. there were many Japanese ships which would come back to port with intact mk14 torpedoes stuck in their sides which never exploded. the final problem with the torpedoes was their gyro would sometimes get stuck, and as a result they'd veer off target, sometimes they'd run in a circle and sink the sub which shot them (yes this actually happened). the problem the US sub fleet had was the navy refused to believe reports of the faulty torps, and chalked up failed patrols (where few ships were sunk) to the commander's failings, causing the navy to chew through commanders of their subs in 1942. At the end of 42, the commanders of various subs got together and started testing the torpedoes in harbor, and then figuring out how to fix them. they found they could fix most of the problems with an inexpensive fix to the pin done in dock before loading the torpedoes. it didn't fix the gyro problems, or the depth problems, but as long as you didn't use the magnetic trigger and knew they ran too deep, with the right pins in the torpedoes they could at least blow shit up. those on the dock repair sessions weren't lost on the navy and when those ships came back with huge tonnage of Japanese shipping sunk they navy knew they had a torpedo problem and how to fix it.
I always enjoy watching your videos even though I've already watched the originals just for your extra comments and context. I lose so much time some days.
I will say this, my history teacher sophomore year in HS was anti American as it gets. I got my history book the first week and I read it; told her to give me the test so I could move on to the next history class. She told me that’s now how it works, so I left class. I showed up two more times after going through channels to take the test. Once for mid-term testing, 98% and again for finals, 96%. Public school was not up to par for my liking, they held me back scholastically. It did help me to realize the importance of education though.
The Mk14 was a piece of crap that took way too long to fix cause bureaucrats decided they couldn't be wrong. It has to be the people using them, fighting with them, and not destroying the enemy that are wrong cause REMF bureaucrats that aren't in the fight or using the weapon are never wrong... Drachinifel has a fantastic vid on the Mk14 and all the issues it had.
The fail rate of the torpedoes would be about on the expectation of "you want to eat that salad? Your first 7 forks are going to break off on the first lettuce leaf. I know it's not supposed to work that way, but you've got highly defective forks. 1 in 8 can actually pierce a leaf of lettuce... don't even think about the baked potato or steak, sheesh.
On your cheating in school, i was one of those kids in class who wouldn't study, do homework, slept in every class, and would still pass every test with 90+. It got to the point where my teachers would put me by myself to make sure I wasn't cheating.
Hey, in physics class i aced all but 1 test and rarely did homework and such. The 1 test was because i missed it and waited too long to retake it it. But sometimes some subjects are extremely easy to grasp
Considering I joined the navy and volunteered for submarine duty... I would probably join the space force 😂 Seriously though, Submarine life ain't so bad. It's quite a unique experience and you'll never find a weirder extended family like other bubble heads.
Hello. Love your videos. I have a question though and it has to do with a completely different subject. Did the US try overthrowing Castro in Cuba, because the Russians moved nukes there? Or, did the Russians put missiles there, because the US was attacking their ally? I was a kid back then, but all the way up into the mid to late 1970s, they taught us ancient history, not current events. They taught us about Egypt and Greece in what I'd call a history class. They called the class Western Civilization. Anyways, I figured I'd ask you about Cuba. Good reaction. Thanks for sharing.
Would you want to be in a submarine crew if you were in the Navy?
I was in the Navy and no, I wouldn't. After meeting a good amount of submariners, I think I made the right choice. They tend to be a bit, ummm, "different".
I would want to...the food is great and they are on the front lines all the time...but I would never make it through the screening for claustrophobia. 💯
Would it be a yellow submarine?
I get badly claustrophobic even if I’m in thick jacket inside a car, that makes it feel like I can’t breathe even with ac at my face
No it was not standard to veer. The torps were very poorly designed. A normal torpedo from both Japan and Germany while yes had a few failures not nearly as much.
The Mk 14 torpedo was a disaster and a half. Drachinifel has a documentary on the Mk 14, and everyone who loves military history needs to check it out.
preach
Came here to say exactly this. Bump for Drach - Mr Terry, PLEASE, check out Drach's channel, and his mk 14 video in particular. Even if you decide not to make a reaction video from it (it is admittedlty much longer than most reaction videos accommodate), I guarantee you will be both entertained and fascinated.
@@AMacLeod426 Agreed.
I mean they didn't even bother testing it
@@ClancyWoodard-yw6tg Because they're cheap assholes.
The US military absolutely went through the Panama Canal, the Iowa class battleships were built within inches of clearance to transverse the canal. If I remember correctly, the US just gave back control of the canal to Panama within the last 5-10 years
pretty close, the usa gave panama the canal back on december 31st 1999.
Aa mistake
@@EpicnessYeetThat's only 5-10 years ago right? Dont tell me im that old..
Not only that, but the Japanese considered it absolutely vital to America's logistics to the point that the only mission the I-400 class submarine aircraft carriers were sent on was to attempt to bomb the canal. The mission was a failure, but it could have been a serious blow to American logistics in the Pacific if it hadn't taken place so late in the war and the ships had managed a successful attack
@@schueltar I’ve been having those moments lately…JFC
If you want an interesting video on why the MK 14 Torpedo. I would recommend is called The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions by Drachinifel. The torpedo has many problems and was developed during the Great Depression. The main problems stem from money and not testing the weapon.
To be more precise, they never did any live fire tests. They definitely tested it, in still water.
Best me to it
More people need to like this comment so that Mr. Terry sees it.
BuOrd!!!!! (Shakes fist angrily)
Excellent documentary
The mark 14 torpedo had like 80% of failure rate, so yeah it was pretty high and frustrating at the same time
Edit: yes the navy does use the Panama Canal
Yea. Imagine if your car failed 4/5 times you pressed the brake or accelerator
@@AlechiaTheWitch Or if 4/5 of your bullets just slid out of the barrel rather than firing when you pulled the trigger
Only after September 1943 the mark 14 inverted the statistics and became 85% of success and 15% of failure
@@Gingerperson1234 yea
Yeah Drachinifel has a good video on the Mark 14.
7:53 The Mark 14 torpedo would literally not go straight, both going left/right off course but also up/down.
Mostly down. It was a problem with the placement of the depth sensor, they stupidly stuck it at the ass-end of the torpedo, where a low-pressure bubble would form like the vacuum behind a bullet, making the torpedo run deep.
Mark 14's would indeed just randomly veer off their directed course, with at least two accounts of them boomeranging all the way back causing ships to adopt evasive maneuvers to dodge their own torpedoes. 😬
There's actually a couple subs suspected to be lost due to the Mk 14s doing a big circle and taking out their own launch platforms.
@@Vyrexuviel
Three subs confirmed to have been lost this way, with up to 14 others suspected.
*Edit. Two confirmed not three. USS Tang (SS-306), and USS Tullibee (SS-284) were both lost to inadvertent circular routes.
Which was actually a design option, but was supposed to be difficult to set, because of the threat.
Again, up to 14 are suspected as sinking from the same malfunction, as no Japanese naval countermeasures were recorded despite being in close proximity to the lost subs last known locations.
I was a weapons loader on F16s and once had to 4 man lift a 350 lb AIM 120 over head to load it. I can only imagine what it was like loading a torpedo on a sub in the middle of battle! My hat definitely is off to them!
Until the supercarriers, all of the US capital ships were constrained to the size of the Panama canal in their designs because they used the Panama canal to get ships from the Atlantic fleet to the Pacific fleet and vice versa. Believe it was actually a push for it to be built because several ships had to travel around the full length of South America just to get involved in the Spanish-American war. The last battleship design the Montana class would have needed the canal to be expanded, unlike the Iowa class which just barely cleared the canal.
Also here are some oversimplifications of some of the problems with the US Mark 14 torpedo:
-Never had a live fire test during development, and was only ever tested in one location.
-Would run deep because it only ever was tested with concrete dummy warhead. That was lighter than the actual warhead.
-The torpedo would strike with enough speed and force that it would deform/destroy the contact detonator, before it could trigger the explosives
-The magnetic detonators were extremely sensitive and could prematurely detonate (Resulting from how tests were only in one location).
-Bureau of Ordinance refused to believe any claims against their prized mark 14 design. Additionally the BoO would lash out at personal who went against the orders to not modify the settings to fix some issues.
If you want a very in depth review of the Mark 14. Drachenifel has a nice video "The Mark 14: Failure is like onions"
Sounds like a horrible design process. You ever seen pentagon wars?
Pretty sure the Montana class was either going to be a simple upgraded version of the Iowa?
Unless im mistaken and no plans were officially selected for the hull and tonnage
@@tylerdurden788The fact Burton was able to make those claims, trying to absolve himself, and get away with it, and then having a whole movie made from it, is pretty bad.
@@xGoodOldSmurfehx You may be thinking of the Illinois and Kentucky which were originally going to be part of the Montana class but were quickly reordered as modified Iowa designs shortly after the Montana design actually got authorization. Initial Montana designs called for twelve 16inch guns with enough armor to withstand the US super heavy 16 inch shell. Those designs were constrained by limitations of the previous inter war treaties, but when war broke out in Europe the designs quickly grew in size, and by the time the Montana got authorization for construction in mid 1940 it was already wider than the 110ft canal with a width of 115ft. Additionally due to repeated delays in starting construction that design kept getting modified which even outgrew the available shipyards.
If I remember correctly, there was an interview with crew members of an Iowa class, I believe. And they said how there was a single foot of clearance on either side, hearing the ship scrape the sides as they went.
When I was an adjunct professor at the local university I had a pair of students who were so bad at cheating that I caught it as they put the assignment on my desk. Printer paper is slightly translucent so I could see as they sat their papers on top of each other that they were identical. They tried to argue even after I held the papers up to the light to show them it was identical except for the names at the top.
The Mark 14 ran deeper than it was supposed to for 2 reasons: all the test runs were with dummy warheads that were lighter than the real warheads (for cost saving reasons, to re-use the torpedoes), and the depth gauge was placed far enough back on the torpedo that air pressure around the torpedo interfered with the water pressure it was supposed to read.
The magnetic detonator was calibrated too tightly and didn't take into account the fact the earth's surface has different bands of magnetism, interfering with the detonator.
The gyroscope did not function properly, causing the torpedoes to veer off course and sometimes circle back to sink the sub that shot the torpedo.
The firing pins were too thin and weak, causing a head-on hit to have a high chance of crumpling the firing pin instead of plunging it into the detonator, so a glancing blow was more likely to actually make the torpedo explode than a direct hit would.
There were so many problems that it took a long time of "fix this problem to find that problem", and that was AFTER the bureaucrats finally admitted that hey, maybe there actually is something wrong with these torpedoes we love so much.
The US did send ships through the Panama canal during WW2. The Japanese made aircraft carrier submarines the I-400, I-401, and I-402 to launch a surprise attack on Panama canal. The submarines could carry 3 planes each would surface, open the hanger to pull one plane out, then attach floats that are stored separately before takeoff, then repeat.
23:24 So I did some research. At the time of Ramage's Rampage (7-31-44), it looks like the US had sunk ten of Japan's carriers, leaving eight in service. Four more would be built before the end of the war.
Everyone is suggesting it but once more: The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions by Drachinifel.
Bump for Drach's mk 14 video.
The Mark-14 torpedo was the worst one ever. The US has to redesign the whole torpedo in the middle of the war. Many war movies in the 1950s and 1960s actually mention this.
I've noticed that old movies that talk about the naval action during world war II mention the Mark 14 torpedoes problems
The American torpedoes early during the war was INFAMOUSLY bad, but once the US got working torpedoes they inflicted HEAVY loses to the Japanese Imperial Navy and merchant fleet. It got so bad Tokyo Bay wasn't safe. in 1944 a submarine sunk the Shinano (a Yamato class hull converted to a Carrier) six hours on her first voyage. Another Submarine took out a Japanese train on one of the Japanese Home Islands.
By 1944, Japan is left with 5 operational aircraft carriers. The IJN Zuiyo, Honshu, Taiyo, Zuikaku and Shokaku
Love your collaborations with Fat Electrician!!! 👍👍
As Drachinifel's video on the Mark 14 torpedo illustrates at length, that torpedo was objectively garbage when the US entered the war.
Bump for Drach's mk 14 video.
3:00 i was the student who was either absent, has a 0% tuen in rate, or never did the classwork and got 105% on nearly every test... And after getting tested, came in at above intellect, and was placed in rooms by myself for a week to see if i was cheating... Never once have i cheated
38:13 38:13 I could be wrong, but I think the animations are from the Pacific War Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas. They definitely have that style, at least. Worth a two-day trip because that's how long it takes to experience everything. The final room with the nuclear bomb replica definitely gives a sense of "What have we done?" And the timeline leading up to and the Pearl Harbor attack are no slouches, either.
The guy who said that the submariners, destroyers, torpedo planes were bad was actually the guy who designed the mark 14 torpedo
You would have hated me as a student. I never cheated, never did the assignments or readings and just passed every test with no score below 95. I just retain knowledge I’ve heard from lectures. Even when half asleep, and constantly my teacher would wake me up mid lecture and ask me to repeat what was said and I’d nail it and they would just throw their hands up in defeat. Eventually they just stopped trying.
Same. After a few weeks I was allowed to just sit in the back and sleep or read in most classes. Too many teachers think you're trying to be a pain, unmotivated, or just don't care. For many people who just slide by with test scores it's usually boredom with the standard school structure. The "no child left behind" policy actually left those students behind. Nice idea, but poor implementation with horrible repercussions for society.
@@79scythe yes absolutely correct while trying to make education more attainable they brought down the standards and made it unbearable for the people who needed to be challenged. They still don’t have enough challenging programs and my youngest gets bored because she learned the material the first day.
Oh yes the military used, and continues to use the Panama canal. It's an absolutely vital link in the military's logistics chain. It's the only fast way to move ships and cargo between the Atlantic and Pacific. The US rail network is impressive but it can't handle anywhere near the amount of cargo volume ships can.
That part in the his video where you made a comment about breaking protocol reminds me of the movie crimson Tide with gene hackman
Japan: (attacks Pearl Harbor) "Great work! Hey... Why do I hear "Damnation" by Warner Chappell?"
As someone who has waited 20 years for a boob shrink I’M WITH HER
The Mk14 torpedos were *atrociously* bad. They were designed to detonate underneath the keel of ships, but labratory testing failed to account for how magnetic fields changed around the world. Several US subs were sunk by faulty explosions. They also wouldn't detonate underneath wooden cargo ships.
The problem was that everyone knew they sucked, but the head of the Pacific Fleet was *also* on the committee that designed and procured them. It was a whole big thing at the time.
In contrast, the Japanese torpedos were *terrifyingly* effective.
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor WAS successful to a point. The Japanese had hoped to catch America's Aircraft carriers at Pearl but as luck would have it they weren'
t there.
7:40 I worked on a torpedo program and they certainly don't lack guidance nowadays...
I still think my favorite part of the whole pacific theater was that America was so pissed about Pearl Harbor that they went from a crippled navy to the largest in the world in the span of two years...
Yes, they did use the canal. It greatly sped up getting reinforcements to the pacific theater
At 5:45 it is stated that the Pearl Harbor attack left the US with no naval warfare capability but the submarines. Even as hyperbole, that is inaccurate, as the aircraft carriers were away from Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, and thus they were available to be used at the Battle of Midway, which occurred not long after Pearl Harbor.
Before I was injured in boot camp I was actually signed up to be a nuclear engineer on a submarine
For submarine service , the big thing they look for is depth perception as well as if your color blind
the mark 14 torpedo is without question the worst weapon ever developed for the us military
Kamakiazi was due to little piolts that had training. Most of their piolts where killed.
I had a buddy that was a nuclear engineer on a sub around 2010 he said it was the coolest shitty job he ever had. He loved the job but living on a sub just sucked
To supplement this video, you should check out Drachinifel and his video on the MK14 torpedo. It provides a lot of clarifying detail about US submarine warfare and success in WWII
Bump for Drach's mk 14 video, and his channel in general.
Mr. Terry you may not have been my History teacher in school but you are definitely my favorite history teacher!
He needs to cover the battle off somar. That battle went down in naval legend
The Mk 14 torpedo was a guided weapon. When FE says the torpedo veered off course, he means the torpedo turned the wrong way.
Also, you might be surprised how much control Rammage would have. Even today, Admirals are stationed on Aircraft Carriers, but those Carriers have their own Captains. The Captain can and will defy the Admiral at times, because the safety and operation of the ship is the Captain's chief responsibility.
Incorrect, the mk14 is a dead fire design. Yes, it has a gyroscope in it, but that is there to supposedly prevent it from veering off course at launch. Once launched, it has no way of changing course in an attempt to increase hit chance as it has no sensors itself and is not partially wire guided like some modern torpedoes.
@@nicolivoldkif9096 I stand corrected. I was thinking of the gyroscope as a rudimentary form of guidance - at least to maintain heading - but that was maybe a generous description of it.
Lew Parks was going to have him court martialed at the end of the patrol. That's how bad it got.
If I was drafted into the Navy... Id like to be a stateside recruiter lol
The MK 14 normally ran 20 to 30 ft deeper than what it was set for. Ran under ships.
In the military, it's much easier to beg for forgiveness, rather than ask for permission.
Wasn't there a story about how someone literally held a demonstration about Mark14 failure rates AT the Bureau of Ordnance by hanging a live torpedo from a crane and dropping it down to ground to simulate direct hit (which was the band-aid solution suggested by the BoO at the time) - the torpedo didn't blow up.
For those curious about just how awful and unreliable the MK14 was I cannot recommend Drachinifel video on it enough. Or just any of his videos, they’re all great.
Bump for Drach's mk 14 video, and his channel in general.
One thing to keep in mind about naval combat is the large distances that battles are fought at. Battles often happen between ships that are many miles away from each other, so any slight deviation or miscalculation makes it near impossible to hit a target from that distance.
This entire operation was on the surface
Some of us once called submarines home. Not everyone is claustrophobic. Requirements have changed quite a lot since WWII. I considered it the best duty in the Navy. You cannot be drafted into the Submarine Service it is and has, to the best of my knowledge, always been entirely voluntary.
March 1944 : another year left in the war in Europe, NOT about 6 weeks!
Germany surrendered May 8, 1945. Japan held out until September 2.
They were on the surface for this entire battle.
Yeah, the mark 14 was notoriously a bad torpedo. It cost us a lot. If designed properly, we would have sunk or damaged significantly more ships during the first two years of our involvement. It wasn't until towards the end of 43 that it was fixed.
My husband had a shipmate who tried to do aircrew with the Navy. They said she couldn’t do it because she had to have 20/20 vision incase she needs to land the plane. Her job was sitting in the back and do a job that has nothing to do with flying the plane…. She said if I have to land the plane you have bigger issues than my vision 😂
In the early times of world war two , american torpedo's had about a %50 success rate I am writing this message as I watch your video. Yes the american military used the panama canal during world War 2
The mk14 were notorious for bad magnetic detonators, and for running multiple feet lower than they should I believe was the issue
The torpedoes had an issue with the fins I think
Out of college, I looked into the Navy. The recruiter kept suggesting nuclear propulsion, nuclear ordinance, and nuclear engineering. That means they want you for a sub. With a history degree I was thinking clerk, quartermaster, etc. I could handle a visit on a sub but 6 mths. no sunlight or stars is not for me. I backed out. I LOVE BEING ON A SHIP but that is on the surface.
You should have done more research. Working in the nuclear field you would have been on a carrier unless you volunteered for sub duty.
You should really check out ; Feli fr Germany : “Do Germans talk about World War II ?”
I've been on the USS Bowfin at Pearl Harbor, visited her last year and if you're the slightest bit tall like I am at 5"11 you have to duck and dodge all sorts of values and have to almost kneel to get through the doorways aboard, the Bowfin was launched Dec 7th 1942, sank 16 Japanese ships and was nicknamed the Pearl Harbor Avenger. I also would suggest looking at the Sub Memorial on battleship row, where all subs based out of Pearl that went missing are listed and on Eternal Watch.
At 12:38 you state that the war in Europe will be over 6 weeks or so after March 1944. Care to restate that?
to your point about cheating around 2:45 i never cheated, but you're describing how i was as a student. I hated doing homework so i never did, but i always passed my tests. I had my ap english teacher keep me after class to yell at me for 20 minutes because she had to pass me due to my final exam score when i hadn't done any homework the entire year. i ended up getting a 250% on my final exam, which was worth half of my grade for the entire class. how did i get a 250%? she added 200 bonus questions to the test that were worth 1% each as a way to give students a chance to bump their grade a little bit. i crushed the test and most of the bonus questions before i ran out of time.
I would have gone on ballistic missile subs ... they swap crews every time they go out on patrol, so get much more time on shore than I did on an aircraft carrier..
Officers would need to be able to pick up targets on periscopes in Ocean from extremely far distance in horrible conditions
Love your videos. You need to review “the eager beavers-old 666” I think you would enjoy it, and I would like to learn more about the whole thing
I do like how you specify " You the person that has done no work, not paid attention, not came to class AND has failed everything else." Because I did this crap in high school for my AP Calc, AP Calc 2 and AP Trig that had the same teacher every year. I'd LITERALLY never do homework, I'd go to sleep in class EVERY DAY, I didn't skip class(I LOVED that class.[Wonder why]) and I would pass every quiz/test with over a 100 and would wind up passing her class every year with a grade higher than 100 and I literally never cheated. She tested me several times to make sure, like one time she handed out a pop quiz and every student in the class had different questions entirely on the quiz so it was impossible to cheat off of someone else and watched me like a hawk. I finished that quiz as well as every other quiz/test within the first 5 minutes of handing it out, first person done everytime, went back to my desk and went to sleep. At first she hated me cuz she thought I wasn't trying or didn't care, but she eventually figured out that I could just watch her go through one example the first day of new material and immediately understood it entirely. So I'd stay awake for like 5 minutes or so at the start of class when we started covering something new and would proceed to sleep the rest of the hour and the entire hour for the next eight days and then stay awake 5 minutes on the ninth day to do the test, turn it in and then pass out for the rest of the hour. She even tried to get my parents to make me do homework, but they asked a TON of questions about my grades in class which concluded with BOTH my parents AND the teacher learning that halfway through the year, I could make a 0 on every piece of homework, quiz AND test and STILL PASS her class, my dad looked at me and told me RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER that as long as I pass with a good grade, he didn't care what I did. Just keep at least a B or better. I passed that specific class at the end of the year with an average grade of 117. btw, she gave out bonus points all the time on test to help students if she needed our parents to sign something +5 Points, do this +7, etc. That's how I made over a 100 on all the test, I'd get 100% right plus easy peasy bonus points. At one point she held me after class and told me if I didn't do at least some homework that she would just stop handing out bonus points. I told her that's not fair, not for me, for everyone else, especially those struggling to learn the material, if you did that, I would turn in less than 10% of the total homework to retain my grade or just not care to do it and take a B, I can afford that burden easily, It'd take me maybe 30-60 minutes to do al that homework at once, and I'd just do it in class so I didn't take my free time away. However all your other students currently barely passing would fail your class entirely and almost half of your class would fail. Is that really what you want? Is that fair to them, to punish them immensely just to "TRY" to punish me SLIGHTLY if at all? Is that REALLY worth it to you? She then backed down when she saw I was more concerned about how that'd effect the other students rather than myself. She grew to love me though, she saw how I'd help the others learn the material and tell them not to just ask HOW you got to the next step, but also WHY you do it that way/order and recommended her to explain to them both how to do it and why you should be doing it that way and it started clicking more for the others. She knew I wasn't cheating, it just didn't challenge me at all and came easy to me, but I never caused her problems in the class. She quit asking me for my homework and every concurrent year she'd increase the percentage of the total grade that homework was worth just to try and make me do some homework. It never worked. Last year I was there was the first year I ever turned in any homework and I literally turned in 5 pieces of homework all at once that I did in that one day in her classroom just to knock my total grade from an 89 to a 91. Let's just say she gave up at that point homework was worth 40% of your final grade, she wouldn't let homework be equal to test. xD She told me at the end of that year that if she knew that is how it'd turn out, she never would have changed it because she changed it each year trying to make me do homework. I told her I knew that, I took it as a challenge.
Speaking of cheating eyesight test, my dad once also cheated on one (I don't remember, why he did that, that's not my problem) by going even more convincing than our protagonist, that is switching hands to cover the same eye previously covered.
Yeah the MK 14 was a bad torpedo.
Hey Terry, something that may be an interesting project (if the school would allow) is to have your students pick a Fat Electrician video (or other youtuber) about a specific incident, and do a report on the impact that incident would likely have had on the larger picture given what was happening at the time. Like you were saying in this video, the oil tankers and oil, how the loss would impact the Japanese fleet and the Japanese ability to continue the war.
Would also (potentially) be a good way to get more familiar with the individual incidents that make up the overall picture you are more familiar with.
I enjoy your videos, and hope so see you on the Unsubscribe podcast with Nic (the fat electrician). I think it'd be pretty cool so see you hanging out with them and talking history!
I was in the Navy, and there is no way in hell I would serve on a sub. Since subs are volunteer, it wasn't gonna happen. I did serve on an amphibious ship during Desert Storm, and later on an aircraft carrier. (preferred the amphib)
I'm sure you just misspoke, but March 1944. You still have a year and six weeks before VE day
And yet, still not as hardcore as the USS Barb, the WW2 Submarine that “sunk” a train.
You should look into the western approaches tactical unit.
If I were to return to the navy, I would want to be on a supply ship again. If my ship were hit then no one on board would know, and there would be no fear of having to live the rest of my life with debilitating injuries. If one blows up it takes 15 minutes for the water to fill in the gap left in the water.
Do you ever show his videos to any of your highschool students??? I honestly think this would be amazing to get kids more interested in history watching videos from Nic!
As a student who slept thru a bunch of classes, and barely did homework. I would often get 100% on tests in those same classes without cheating.
The Mk 14 torpedo magnetic detonator didnt work, and the impact detonators broke on impact rather than firing. Also, the depth control was bad and the torpedoes ran deeper than they were set ... and would pass underneath the target rather than hitting it.
If you think this is fun, look up Animarchy History's "History of USS Enterprise"
Also, if you want more background on the Mark 14, please react to Drachinifel's "The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions"
Bump for Drach's mk 14 video, and his channel in general.
The Mark 14 torpedo was a dumpster fire The military didn't even bother testing it when they developed it
Couldn’t pay me enough to get in a submarine. Absolutely no way, ain’t happening.
I know he talks rough but to us veterans this is normal. We are so used to that we don’t even notice it anymore. Lol
Aftercredits?
Don't mess with America ships as simple as that.
the mk14 torpedo had 4 major flaws. the first was the magnetic trigger didn't work at all. so any attempt to fire torps at a depth to break the ships keel (basically shooting them under the ship, when they blow up from the magnetic detector they crack the heel and sink it). the second problem was the torpedoes ran about 6' deeper then set; something it took a long time to figure out. the third problem was the contact trigger was too weak in it's construction, so if the torpedo hit the ship square it would break the pin and the warhead wouldn't explode. there were many Japanese ships which would come back to port with intact mk14 torpedoes stuck in their sides which never exploded. the final problem with the torpedoes was their gyro would sometimes get stuck, and as a result they'd veer off target, sometimes they'd run in a circle and sink the sub which shot them (yes this actually happened).
the problem the US sub fleet had was the navy refused to believe reports of the faulty torps, and chalked up failed patrols (where few ships were sunk) to the commander's failings, causing the navy to chew through commanders of their subs in 1942. At the end of 42, the commanders of various subs got together and started testing the torpedoes in harbor, and then figuring out how to fix them. they found they could fix most of the problems with an inexpensive fix to the pin done in dock before loading the torpedoes. it didn't fix the gyro problems, or the depth problems, but as long as you didn't use the magnetic trigger and knew they ran too deep, with the right pins in the torpedoes they could at least blow shit up. those on the dock repair sessions weren't lost on the navy and when those ships came back with huge tonnage of Japanese shipping sunk they navy knew they had a torpedo problem and how to fix it.
I always enjoy watching your videos even though I've already watched the originals just for your extra comments and context. I lose so much time some days.
Ramage is basically like that meme from Der Untergang where Hitler is yelling NEIN NEIN NEIN. Except Ramage was yelling DIE DIE DIE!
(5:36) Well he was in submarine duty and they Weren't attacked.🤔
The early war mk14 was a weapon you wanted your enemy to have. As others have pointed out Drachinifel has a brilliant vid on the subject
the best submarine crew ever!
I will say this, my history teacher sophomore year in HS was anti American as it gets.
I got my history book the first week and I read it; told her to give me the test so I could move on to the next history class. She told me that’s now how it works, so I left class. I showed up two more times after going through channels to take the test. Once for mid-term testing, 98% and again for finals, 96%.
Public school was not up to par for my liking, they held me back scholastically. It did help me to realize the importance of education though.
would be a great war movie
Instead of pirates or head hunters they could have went with the head hunter pirates it's badass and fits better
The Mk14 was a piece of crap that took way too long to fix cause bureaucrats decided they couldn't be wrong. It has to be the people using them, fighting with them, and not destroying the enemy that are wrong cause REMF bureaucrats that aren't in the fight or using the weapon are never wrong...
Drachinifel has a fantastic vid on the Mk14 and all the issues it had.
The fail rate of the torpedoes would be about on the expectation of "you want to eat that salad? Your first 7 forks are going to break off on the first lettuce leaf. I know it's not supposed to work that way, but you've got highly defective forks. 1 in 8 can actually pierce a leaf of lettuce... don't even think about the baked potato or steak, sheesh.
On your cheating in school, i was one of those kids in class who wouldn't study, do homework, slept in every class, and would still pass every test with 90+. It got to the point where my teachers would put me by myself to make sure I wasn't cheating.
Hey, in physics class i aced all but 1 test and rarely did homework and such. The 1 test was because i missed it and waited too long to retake it it. But sometimes some subjects are extremely easy to grasp
Considering I joined the navy and volunteered for submarine duty... I would probably join the space force 😂
Seriously though, Submarine life ain't so bad. It's quite a unique experience and you'll never find a weirder extended family like other bubble heads.
One of my favorite Balao Class subs is the U.S.S. Stingray SS-161.
Hello. Love your videos. I have a question though and it has to do with a completely different subject. Did the US try overthrowing Castro in Cuba, because the Russians moved nukes there? Or, did the Russians put missiles there, because the US was attacking their ally? I was a kid back then, but all the way up into the mid to late 1970s, they taught us ancient history, not current events. They taught us about Egypt and Greece in what I'd call a history class. They called the class Western Civilization. Anyways, I figured I'd ask you about Cuba. Good reaction. Thanks for sharing.
early mark 14 where faulty look it up