Really appreciate you video, and the info. I had just bought a two forged blades in 52100. Never had used this steel before in a blade and really looking forward to using it. Thanks again.
You're right! I own 52100 steel on 2 handforged knives, that have 2 times the edge retention of my my factory made CPM 3V knives, they don't chip where my 3V blades take microchips. They also sharpen way easier/faster and their edge is sharper and it's cabides seem to cut better too! So, my ballbearing steel blades, Literally outcut and outperform my Super steel CPM 3V blades. Best user steel, for any kind of outdoors knife in my opinion. Either it's a hunting, Bushcraft, Survival you name it, I would choose that steel over any other, with close second, the Vanadis 4 Extra, that I like more than both 4V and CPM Cruwear.
@@greekveteran2715 Reinforces a lot of what cliff stamp used to say. He thought that in most cases, regular good steel with enough hardness and toughness to hold a thin edge will outcut other steels if you like to keep them actually sharp.
Yes sir, that's 100% facts! Marketing nowdays, as also a lot of misnformation that see on TH-cam, have turned people to away from regular steels but in reallity,things are a lot different. Also geometry, is something people forget how important it is.even sharpening, is and the way that was done, can make a huge dfifference. For example, if you don't properly remove the burr, after sharpening, then you can reduce the retention, up to 100 times less!!. @@mikafoxx2717
excellent video and explanation Mr. Calton , wish I knew about you few years back however thank you for sharing your professional experience , I wish you all the best of your heart's desires to come true
Thank you for honest detailed video about these two steels. I learned a lot. And I wish you make a video why you are not utilising A2 or even better 3V for your knives. And if you work with them as well, what is your experience with their highlights and downsides. Thank you 🔪✨
I can't speak for joe, but A2 and 3V are just not able to do the fine edge holding at really high hardness that 1095 and 52100 can do. Actually, I don't really know the virtue of A2 in much of anything except that it's better behaved as far as warpage goes. Its wear resistance doesn't seem in line with its abrasion resistance and unless it's cryo tempered, it gives up carbides and doesn't get along with some stones that are really nice for daily knife sharpening (washitas). 3V likes 59 hardness, and is much more stone resistant (more trouble to sharpen) and if you push it to 61 to try to get better fine edge holding, it's slower sharpening yet. It's filled with vanadium carbides (not tons like a 9% steel, but a lot compared to something that just has a trickle of vanadium added to bump up hardness - like XHP vs. 154CM or 440C). Vanadium carbides are great for metal on metal wear, but for someone who wants to slice things and sharpen to get back to slicing things quickly, 3V is just the sh*ts. It loves to hold on to its wire edge, too, and for a forger - can you even forge it? I've cut XHP and made plane irons from it (no knives so far) - if you get it hot, it hardens. Someone forging it would have it harden (3V may be the same way) when you really don't want it to.
@@daw162 3V's best for toughness. It is one of the toughest of the new 'super steels'. Any steel with 0.60% vanadium is going to make V carbides and FYI vanadium carbides are harder than tungsten carbides, but both need a diamond to sharpen. A high V knife will hold an edge better than any Ferrite or iron carbide steel even at 56 RC. Note; If you see a steel like the Chinese stuff with that 9CrMoV designation understand that the V is only 0.20% just like good O1 with 0.20% V. At that low percentage vanadium does not make carbides. What it does is it RESTRICTS grain growth. Now, if you really want a tough, but hard edge holding steel then I would suggest you find some S5 shock steel, not S7, but S5. It will harden up to 59-60 hardness with an unbelievable toughness. I used to forge ax heads out of it at HRC 59-60 hardness with no chipping even if it hits a nail.
I've got some 52100 from Ed's supplier a few years ago and it's excellent stuff, super consistent. I haven't used a lot of 1095, mainly 1084, though I'm playing with more 1095. I have seen slightly greater corrosion resistance with 52100 over 1084, and somewhat more impact resistance as well. In practical use, and I abuse my knives, I've noticed slightly better performance with 52100.
Thanks for the information. I purchased a bunch of 52100 at a good price from a metal works that was closing down. I was browsing the web to see what 52100 was and came across your video. Looks like I may have got a good deal...
I think ive seen this video a few times over the past couple years. Every once in a while it pops up in my recommendations. Anway. This time going through. I cant help but wonder. With that batch of 52100 flatstock you didn't like. Did you thermal cycle it at all? Or did you heat treat from the condition the supplier sent it in? That can make a pretty big difference in how 52100 will act. And when its forged you basically have no choice but to thermal cycle. But coming in flat stock, and heat treating from that condition. Without adjusting temps, and even then it might not have as good of properties as it would if you were heat treating from an optimal prior microstructure. Anyway. I just figured I would leave this comment since i was thinking about it.
im sure I did thermocycle is several times either in just grinding out knives, or in forging them from that steel. if i remember right, that supplier had sold a pretty big pile of it, and then after awhile folks realized it wasnt heat treating right, and he hired a smith to figure out what was going on with it and came up with a solution, and was then the hero of the supplier world.
@@joecalton1449 yeah. I imagine if it was a pretty big stock pile of various suppliers 52100, it could make it a little harder to predict what one piece to another is going to do. That or if its just a big stock pile of the same 52100 from the manufacterer that acts that way. It could have not been homogenized well or something from the manufacturer. And if that is the case they would have to hold it at a pretty high temp (above 1900 probably) for a pretty long time. But idk. I have no clue what happened. So those are just my guesses.
Oxidization was the word you were searching for. Rusting or oxidization is a very slow form of burning your edge is actually burning away. Fun stuff. LOL
there seems to be 2 main schools of thought on that subject. the one I started on is to use salvage materials to make your first couple hundred knives on, with the idea being that you will probably mess up quite a few {I know I did}. and for that style, old files, saw blades, hay rake teeth, coil springs, leaf springs, ect.... the other school of thought is to start off with a known steel, purchased from a reputable supplier so that in case your first knife turns out good, then you will know what you have. and in that case I think jantz knifemaking supply, and 1084 or 5160 would be a great place to start and they sell in small pieces.
Any chance to see 14C28N or 80CrV2 in the future? Both are tougher and have better edge retention than 1095 while still being quite affordable. I really like the Bushcraft design. Would be an interesting knife if it came in 14C28N or 80CrV2.
take 5 min to polish the edge with a strop before use if you work at a restaurant. Unless you guy limes all night that should keep the edge in line no matter the steel 'you might make 1000 cuts depending on your job. ' btw if you use that 1095 or 1070 as a citrus cutting knife it brings out an amazing hamon, or '' ghost line'' you referred to. the secret is doing it a couple time week for a bit rather than just dipping it into ferric chloride or vinegar one or two times..
all I know is 52100 is a spring steel with .05 percent more carbon than 1095 and the addition of chromium, and 1095 is obviously a high carbon steel containing .95 percent carbon, hence the name. So 1095 is probably more rigid as there is nothing to interfere with the grain. I like W-2 or K390 depending on what I want made. Long story short this was a very informative and helpful video.
Greek Veteran May I ask what makes you say it is much much better than 1095? They both contain ~1% carbon so they can get very hard. 1095 needs a very fast quench, 52100 not so much. 52100 has some extra alloying, that make it deep hardening, but that doesn’t automatically make it better. It has to be heat treated well in order to see any marginal performance against 1095. A well treated 1095 blade will run circles against a 52100 blade with less than optimal HT. The better thing to say is they are very very close to each other and are both great. Just my 2 cents.
52100 is a ball bearing steel developed before WWll and has 1.5% chromium and it makes chromium carbides a plenty. Chromium carbides are much harder than plain ferrite or iron carbide.
So I recently bought some 1095 on Etsy from someone with very high reviews and over 4k sales. I forget the name. Anyways it seemed cheap for the amount of steel but once I started grinding and especially filing into the steel I noticed the steel looked like it was pattern welded. There are definite wavy lines throughout the middle of the bar. I've had a couple knives do ok with it and two in a row that have had problems with chippy edges where no matter how hard I try to get them sharp they just keep chipping. I've tempered one of them down to probably 50hrc and it was still chippy. Letting me know my temper wasn't the problem. Have you ever seen anything like that? I'm pretty new to knife making but usually good at this kind of thing but this was throwing me for a loop. And I'm trying to figure out if I'm the problem or if the steel is the problem. Thanks for any advice or information. Good video btw.
about the easiest thing to do would be to call up jantz and order a bar of their 1095 and make a couple test blades. 1095 is a great steel if you get it from a good supplier. ive had the best luck with jantz and admiral, and I have had not very good luck at all from about half a dozen other places.
Hello sir very informative video. I would like to ask you pls what kind of sharpener should i buy to keep sharp my Cold Steel Drop Forged Survivalist knife in a survival situation on the woods. I have seen many of those pocket portable sharpeners but i dont know if they are suitable for 52100 that my knife is and im afraid not to damage it. I need something to be practical and easy to carry with in a survival situation but also the right one. Your thoughts would help a lot. Thank you.
id suggest one of 2 stones, or perhaps a third if you like polished edges. the norton crystolon coarse/fine for an oil stone. or the king 220/1000 for a waterstone. if you like polished edges, you could add a king 1000/6000 waterstone also. if you will be carrying these stones in a pack where weight is a concern, you can cut them in half or in thirds with an old hacksaw.
@@joecalton1449 Thank you very much sir. I found those grits but to another brands (Risam and Tojiro) because i cant find King and Norton in my country but i think the result will be decent. I hope they are good enough for another inox knife i have too. Have a nice day, greetings from Greece.
@@joecalton1449 It is not as cheap as it used to be, but I'd buy two 10 lb bloccks and set my blades in-between them for several days and then temper at 450 for 90 minutes and you could definitely tell the difference on toughness and edge holding. I did a 400 temper for two hours before the cryo btw. Guy at Hinderliter Heat Treat in OKC, OK told me to never put the blades directly onto dry ice or liquid nitrogen without doing a temper for two hours, a lower temperature temper, hence the 400. No point in doing a cryo on 1095 as it has no chrome and doesn't make chromium carbides.
@@MountainFisherA fair bit of misinformation here. Cryo has no effect on carbides, it just lowers retained austinite either after the quench or after a temper. Austenite happens in any steel even without undissolved carbides. It's best to do it right after quenching and not after the first temper - that's only done in production to lower cracking chances. The sooner you put it in the freezer or dry ice, the more effective it is. It mostly ups the hardness, you can't temper 52100 cryo hardness down to the ubiquitous 58-59 without actually making it more brittle. Stay in the 375-450f tempering range for most steels, the austenitize temp will dictate how much carbide dissolved to control the coarse tempered hardness, and temper temp for finer control.
This video is awesome!!! You sir get a great job explaining, keep it up. The chemistry is big on the words but you will get it. The branch you are looking for is inorganic chemistry. There are books and videos online(free) to level up on chemistry. It can help with understanding what each exotic element does. Pretty cool stuff. My text book from school is pretty good and its 12 chapters(I got it free online from a pdf). If you are interested I could share the name of the book.
So you edge quench your knives, resulting in a differentially hardened blade. Since you don’t use clay, typically how much of the blade you quench? Just the portion where the edge is ground? Or further up? Great video. You managed to make a 30 minutes video about this kind of stuff, and make it entertaining.
it depends on the knife, but usually 1/3 to 2/3rds the width of the blade is quenched in the oil. with 1095 you will get some of what I call flash hardening, where the hardening line will be higher that where the blade was in the oil from the oil flashing off from the heat and cooling it above the level of the oil. and thickness and intended grind plus how tough or springy the finished knife needs to be all comes into account.
Joe Calton Thanks fro the response. Do you ever use this method with old school water or brine quenching. I will be trying this method but with L6 Steel (8670). The “knives” in mind will be a machete that is 2.5mm (3/32”) thick, and later a Katana that is 8.3mm thick (1/3”). I know that most people will say to quench deep hardening steels in oil, but I’m wondering if a really fast interrupted edge quench some with brine/water is possible with L6. I’ve read some people have water quenched with O1, 5160, L6 etc. What do you think? Thanks.
@@Divine_Serpent_Geh L6 is NOT 8670. You can make Damascus with L6. I got stuck being the heat treater at a machine shop and got pretty good at learning the old tool steels especially. Make exceptional D2 knives.
@@MountainFisher A lot has changed since I posted this comment. Yes, L6 is definitely not 8670. The source I obtained that information from was mistaken. As far as I learned, true L6 air-hardens if you not careful. I didn’t end up using any of those. For the past year I’ve been experimenting and doing the best I possibly can with simple tool steels like W1/W2 and 1095. I love differential gardening since I’m mainly into larger blades. It’s also better for me because my heat treating equipment is minimal. I eventually decided not to pursue the more complicated tool steels because without optimum heat treat, there’s really no point. Perhaps later down the road. But it depends... I really love the fact of having a differentially hardened knife with a thick spine and an edge hardened and tempered for maximum edge strength and stability running between 65-67 hrc.
@@Divine_Serpent_Geh I have some 1095 I did that to, but beware because it chips if you hit a bone skinning a deer. You know Alpha Knife Supply has some made for forging CruforgeV if you want a hard edge that isn't prone to chipping. It is basically W1 with vanadium to make vanadium carbides, which btw are harder than tungsten carbides. Invest in some top notch grinding belts though.
52100 is a bearing steel that can keep an edge well enough for a knife. 52100 has 3 to 10 elements in the alloy besides carbon like any which only 1 of the 10 is chromium. 1095 is just 0.95 carbon steel which is about as hard as you want to get for a blade as it is a tad to brittle if honest. 1060 to 1090 or anything in-between is better for a blade but 1095 can be used if the geometry is made to compensate for the brittle nature of the material but it is not run of the mill shed & workshop doable. 1095 & up even as plain carbon steel is beyond most peoples set ups. If you know how to treat bearing in a kitchen oven then it is not hard to work with 52100 but I'm not sharing all the methods. 52100 partially contains silicon making it partly an electrical insulation steel. Bearing steel for knifes is a tad much unless you need blade with a very high loading bearing application or a partial insulation to electricity. So you know 52100 is family of steels that have many designation for the carbon alone ranges from 0.8% to 1.1% depending on the grade. If you cannot read grades then 51200 is a not a steel I recommend for blade making because above shy of 1% carbon the failure point is increased considerable in shear brittle fracture. I would recommend 420 & or 440 cutlery grade stainless steel as the hardness is plenty with nice edge retention. 316 is food & surgical grade stainless steel with high corrosion resistance that is non magnetic. 316 is good enough for surgeons & frankly is much easier to work with if you are patient & don't over grind it in one go as it don't like getting hot. Till my failed health I worked in a tube fabrication company that specialised mainly in cooling & surgical equipment. You have superior surgical steels to 316 but they take a lot more know how to work. 316 is about twice the labour of general aluminium work for perspective. Anything more then 316 for a blade is over the top & 52100 is a wonderful steel but an odd choice for a blade though it works you could have used it for tank turret bearing or something far more useful! It's like having a golden toilet as it can be done but why? Is your backside that special you need 51200 for a knife? 316 is very high chromium above 16% & the molybdenum is 2% minimum making it very hard & so you can't use run of the mill tool bits to machine it etcetera. it's roughly 12% nickel makes it have shape retention & brilliant corrosion resistance & hardness due to it's crystalline structure with chromium. For a modest sized blade of about hacksaw length or smaller you cannot get better then 316 unless you want to be bankrupt. If about 28 inches or less then 316 is your best bet far more then bearing steel that doesn't like to be long due to it's brittle properties. Internal stresses are a thing & most stainless does not like being to long or it tends to flex under it's own weight which is why large steel pieces are chromium plated as it off sets this issue.
I don't know, I do forge some 1095, but I have not found it in larger cross sections like 2" round. so forging a knife from say 1/4" x 1" 1095 and comparing it to a knife forged from 2" round 52100 wouldn't be a very equal comparison. with 1/4" stock you just don't have a lot of material for the heat cycles to really help a lot as you reduce it.
No offense, but your video was very long. What is the verdict? My understanding was always 52100 > 5160 > 1095 Cro-Van > 1095. That said, it all depends on the heat treat, and Ontario Knife Company (RIP} wrote an entire article on why they switched all their 1095 blades to 1075, because 1075 is tougher, with less edge retention than 1095, but 1095 is extremely unforgiving when it comes to heat treatment. In essence, OKC had catastrophic failures of their 1095 blades, because the heat treat wasn't optimal. Admittedly, despite having a master's in ME, I know nothing about the heat treat process for 52100 or 5160. I just know that when I upgrade the leaf sorings on my SUV, I'm going to ask a custom knife maker to make me some sick 5160 blades, including a machete! In all seriousness, we only get one class on materials science in ME. I know about heat treatment, but not which carbon steels are superior.
overall for 1095 from all makers, that might be a good way to think about it. 1095 is typically run much softer than it can be in factory knives to gain some toughness. since I am not a factory cranking out a gazillion knives a day, I usually do a differential heat treat that leaves the edge at its optimal working hardness, and then leave the spine softer for toughness. so in that case, I would have to pay real close attention to see if there is any difference in sharpening between my 1095 and my 52100, but I haven't ever noticed a difference in just working with them, they are both easy to sharpen.
try out some 52100e round bar from mcmaster carr in 5/8" or larger. or jantz started selling 52100 in round stock also and i have used a couple feet of it and it seems nice and clean with no surprises.
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just came across this for info about 52100 and steelport knives. my kinda talk. thanks for your time
Thanks for watching!
That CPM version of 1095 is pretty awesome I think.
Really appreciate you video, and the info. I had just bought a two forged blades in 52100. Never had used this steel before in a blade and really looking forward to using it. Thanks again.
Let me put it this way I like 1095 but I love 52100.
You're right! I own 52100 steel on 2 handforged knives, that have 2 times the edge retention of my my factory made CPM 3V knives, they don't chip where my 3V blades take microchips. They also sharpen way easier/faster and their edge is sharper and it's cabides seem to cut better too! So, my ballbearing steel blades, Literally outcut and outperform my Super steel CPM 3V blades.
Best user steel, for any kind of outdoors knife in my opinion. Either it's a hunting, Bushcraft, Survival you name it, I would choose that steel over any other, with close second, the Vanadis 4 Extra, that I like more than both 4V and CPM Cruwear.
@@greekveteran2715
Reinforces a lot of what cliff stamp used to say. He thought that in most cases, regular good steel with enough hardness and toughness to hold a thin edge will outcut other steels if you like to keep them actually sharp.
Yes sir, that's 100% facts! Marketing nowdays, as also a lot of misnformation that see on TH-cam, have turned people to away from regular steels but in reallity,things are a lot different. Also geometry, is something people forget how important it is.even sharpening, is and the way that was done, can make a huge dfifference. For example, if you don't properly remove the burr, after sharpening, then you can reduce the retention, up to 100 times less!!. @@mikafoxx2717
I've never had one in 52100. I really like 1095.
excellent video and explanation Mr. Calton , wish I knew about you few years back however thank you for sharing your professional experience , I wish you all the best of your heart's desires to come true
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for honest detailed video about these two steels. I learned a lot. And I wish you make a video why you are not utilising A2 or even better 3V for your knives. And if you work with them as well, what is your experience with their highlights and downsides. Thank you 🔪✨
I can't speak for joe, but A2 and 3V are just not able to do the fine edge holding at really high hardness that 1095 and 52100 can do. Actually, I don't really know the virtue of A2 in much of anything except that it's better behaved as far as warpage goes. Its wear resistance doesn't seem in line with its abrasion resistance and unless it's cryo tempered, it gives up carbides and doesn't get along with some stones that are really nice for daily knife sharpening (washitas).
3V likes 59 hardness, and is much more stone resistant (more trouble to sharpen) and if you push it to 61 to try to get better fine edge holding, it's slower sharpening yet. It's filled with vanadium carbides (not tons like a 9% steel, but a lot compared to something that just has a trickle of vanadium added to bump up hardness - like XHP vs. 154CM or 440C). Vanadium carbides are great for metal on metal wear, but for someone who wants to slice things and sharpen to get back to slicing things quickly, 3V is just the sh*ts. It loves to hold on to its wire edge, too, and for a forger - can you even forge it? I've cut XHP and made plane irons from it (no knives so far) - if you get it hot, it hardens. Someone forging it would have it harden (3V may be the same way) when you really don't want it to.
@@daw162 cpm 3v can be forged but you would want a power hammer and press
@@daw162 3V's best for toughness. It is one of the toughest of the new 'super steels'. Any steel with 0.60% vanadium is going to make V carbides and FYI vanadium carbides are harder than tungsten carbides, but both need a diamond to sharpen. A high V knife will hold an edge better than any Ferrite or iron carbide steel even at 56 RC. Note; If you see a steel like the Chinese stuff with that 9CrMoV designation understand that the V is only 0.20% just like good O1 with 0.20% V. At that low percentage vanadium does not make carbides. What it does is it RESTRICTS grain growth.
Now, if you really want a tough, but hard edge holding steel then I would suggest you find some S5 shock steel, not S7, but S5. It will harden up to 59-60 hardness with an unbelievable toughness. I used to forge ax heads out of it at HRC 59-60 hardness with no chipping even if it hits a nail.
@Mountai even 5160 is pretty damn tough, 8670 even moreso, and I think 15n20 is at least as tough at higher hardness than those two.
Good, down to Earth explanation. It's obvious to me that you have an excellent working knowledge of these steels.
Thank you kindly!
I've got some 52100 from Ed's supplier a few years ago and it's excellent stuff, super consistent. I haven't used a lot of 1095, mainly 1084, though I'm playing with more 1095. I have seen slightly greater corrosion resistance with 52100 over 1084, and somewhat more impact resistance as well. In practical use, and I abuse my knives, I've noticed slightly better performance with 52100.
Knife making is something you can do as complex as you want. I wonder how good Condor tool and steel 1095 is compared to other 1095s...
you got that right! I have never played with the condor knives to be able to tell you how it compares.
Thanks for the information. I purchased a bunch of 52100 at a good price from a metal works that was closing down. I was browsing the web to see what 52100 was and came across your video. Looks like I may have got a good deal...
Nice work!
I think ive seen this video a few times over the past couple years. Every once in a while it pops up in my recommendations.
Anway. This time going through. I cant help but wonder. With that batch of 52100 flatstock you didn't like.
Did you thermal cycle it at all? Or did you heat treat from the condition the supplier sent it in?
That can make a pretty big difference in how 52100 will act. And when its forged you basically have no choice but to thermal cycle. But coming in flat stock, and heat treating from that condition. Without adjusting temps, and even then it might not have as good of properties as it would if you were heat treating from an optimal prior microstructure.
Anyway. I just figured I would leave this comment since i was thinking about it.
im sure I did thermocycle is several times either in just grinding out knives, or in forging them from that steel. if i remember right, that supplier had sold a pretty big pile of it, and then after awhile folks realized it wasnt heat treating right, and he hired a smith to figure out what was going on with it and came up with a solution, and was then the hero of the supplier world.
@@joecalton1449 yeah. I imagine if it was a pretty big stock pile of various suppliers 52100, it could make it a little harder to predict what one piece to another is going to do.
That or if its just a big stock pile of the same 52100 from the manufacterer that acts that way. It could have not been homogenized well or something from the manufacturer. And if that is the case they would have to hold it at a pretty high temp (above 1900 probably) for a pretty long time.
But idk. I have no clue what happened. So those are just my guesses.
Oxidization was the word you were searching for. Rusting or oxidization is a very slow form of burning your edge is actually burning away. Fun stuff. LOL
Just came across your video really enjoyed your sharing knowledge
Awesome, thank you!
Question from somebody who never made a knife : what would be a good steel to start ?
With home tools ,no professional stuff.
there seems to be 2 main schools of thought on that subject. the one I started on is to use salvage materials to make your first couple hundred knives on, with the idea being that you will probably mess up quite a few {I know I did}. and for that style, old files, saw blades, hay rake teeth, coil springs, leaf springs, ect....
the other school of thought is to start off with a known steel, purchased from a reputable supplier so that in case your first knife turns out good, then you will know what you have. and in that case I think jantz knifemaking supply, and 1084 or 5160 would be a great place to start and they sell in small pieces.
Good stuff, keep doing what you are doing.
Any chance to see 14C28N or 80CrV2 in the future? Both are tougher and have better edge retention than 1095 while still being quite affordable. I really like the Bushcraft design. Would be an interesting knife if it came in 14C28N or 80CrV2.
i dont have any plans on adding any new steels any time soon, just 1095, 5160, 52100, 440c and 1095 or 1080/15n20 pattern welded steels
take 5 min to polish the edge with a strop before use if you work at a restaurant. Unless you guy limes all night that should keep the edge in line no matter the steel 'you might make 1000 cuts depending on your job. ' btw if you use that 1095 or 1070 as a citrus cutting knife it brings out an amazing hamon, or '' ghost line'' you referred to. the secret is doing it a couple time week for a bit rather than just dipping it into ferric chloride or vinegar one or two times..
I would bet Jantz gets their metal from CMC (Commercial Metal Company) which is located near them.
Nope, Cincinnati Tool Steel.
all I know is 52100 is a spring steel with .05 percent more carbon than 1095 and the addition of chromium, and 1095 is obviously a high carbon steel containing .95 percent carbon, hence the name. So 1095 is probably more rigid as there is nothing to interfere with the grain. I like W-2 or K390 depending on what I want made. Long story short this was a very informative and helpful video.
52100 also has better thermal stats for making better grains chromium helps ensure a better Crystal which gives it its flexibility.
AS far as I know 52100 is a ballbearing steel, which is much much better than 1095
Greek Veteran May I ask what makes you say it is much much better than 1095?
They both contain ~1% carbon so they can get very hard. 1095 needs a very fast quench, 52100 not so much. 52100 has some extra alloying, that make it deep hardening, but that doesn’t automatically make it better. It has to be heat treated well in order to see any marginal performance against 1095. A well treated 1095 blade will run circles against a 52100 blade with less than optimal HT.
The better thing to say is they are very very close to each other and are both great. Just my 2 cents.
@@Divine_Serpent_Geh 52100 makes chromium carbides, harder than ferrite or iron carbide which is all you get with 1095.
52100 is a ball bearing steel developed before WWll and has 1.5% chromium and it makes chromium carbides a plenty. Chromium carbides are much harder than plain ferrite or iron carbide.
Talk about the 80Crv2 please!
i am sorry but i dont work with that steel, so I couldnt tell you anything about it.
@@joecalton1449 oh ok, no problem thank you anyway 🙏🏻🙌🏻🔝💪🏻💪🏻
This has pretty much been my experience as well.
So I recently bought some 1095 on Etsy from someone with very high reviews and over 4k sales. I forget the name. Anyways it seemed cheap for the amount of steel but once I started grinding and especially filing into the steel I noticed the steel looked like it was pattern welded. There are definite wavy lines throughout the middle of the bar. I've had a couple knives do ok with it and two in a row that have had problems with chippy edges where no matter how hard I try to get them sharp they just keep chipping. I've tempered one of them down to probably 50hrc and it was still chippy. Letting me know my temper wasn't the problem. Have you ever seen anything like that? I'm pretty new to knife making but usually good at this kind of thing but this was throwing me for a loop. And I'm trying to figure out if I'm the problem or if the steel is the problem. Thanks for any advice or information. Good video btw.
about the easiest thing to do would be to call up jantz and order a bar of their 1095 and make a couple test blades. 1095 is a great steel if you get it from a good supplier. ive had the best luck with jantz and admiral, and I have had not very good luck at all from about half a dozen other places.
Hello sir very informative video. I would like to ask you pls what kind of sharpener should i buy to keep sharp my Cold Steel Drop Forged Survivalist knife in a survival situation on the woods. I have seen many of those pocket portable sharpeners but i dont know if they are suitable for 52100 that my knife is and im afraid not to damage it. I need something to be practical and easy to carry with in a survival situation but also the right one. Your thoughts would help a lot. Thank you.
id suggest one of 2 stones, or perhaps a third if you like polished edges. the norton crystolon coarse/fine for an oil stone. or the king 220/1000 for a waterstone. if you like polished edges, you could add a king 1000/6000 waterstone also. if you will be carrying these stones in a pack where weight is a concern, you can cut them in half or in thirds with an old hacksaw.
@@joecalton1449 Thank you very much sir. I found those grits but to another brands (Risam and Tojiro) because i cant find King and Norton in my country but i think the result will be decent. I hope they are good enough for another inox knife i have too. Have a nice day, greetings from Greece.
Thanks Joe, very interesting!
I think the word you were looking for is oxidation?
Do you ever do a dry ice cryo for your 52100 to help bring out the chromium carbides?
no, just a household freezer
@@joecalton1449 It is not as cheap as it used to be, but I'd buy two 10 lb bloccks and set my blades in-between them for several days and then temper at 450 for 90 minutes and you could definitely tell the difference on toughness and edge holding. I did a 400 temper for two hours before the cryo btw. Guy at Hinderliter Heat Treat in OKC, OK told me to never put the blades directly onto dry ice or liquid nitrogen without doing a temper for two hours, a lower temperature temper, hence the 400.
No point in doing a cryo on 1095 as it has no chrome and doesn't make chromium carbides.
@@MountainFisherA fair bit of misinformation here. Cryo has no effect on carbides, it just lowers retained austinite either after the quench or after a temper. Austenite happens in any steel even without undissolved carbides. It's best to do it right after quenching and not after the first temper - that's only done in production to lower cracking chances. The sooner you put it in the freezer or dry ice, the more effective it is. It mostly ups the hardness, you can't temper 52100 cryo hardness down to the ubiquitous 58-59 without actually making it more brittle. Stay in the 375-450f tempering range for most steels, the austenitize temp will dictate how much carbide dissolved to control the coarse tempered hardness, and temper temp for finer control.
Really interesting, Joe!
So if you want Popeye arms stick with stock that is 1 in or thicker?
it seems to work out that way unless you ahve a powerhammer or press :}
This video is awesome!!! You sir get a great job explaining, keep it up.
The chemistry is big on the words but you will get it.
The branch you are looking for is inorganic chemistry. There are books and videos online(free) to level up on chemistry. It can help with understanding what each exotic element does.
Pretty cool stuff.
My text book from school is pretty good and its 12 chapters(I got it free online from a pdf). If you are interested I could share the name of the book.
The term is “Oxidation “.
Those 2 metals clog up my stone, and make it all greasy. I have been using 80crV2, and next gen 3pm I think? They work well
So you edge quench your knives, resulting in a differentially hardened blade.
Since you don’t use clay, typically how much of the blade you quench? Just the portion where the edge is ground? Or further up?
Great video. You managed to make a 30 minutes video about this kind of stuff, and make it entertaining.
it depends on the knife, but usually 1/3 to 2/3rds the width of the blade is quenched in the oil. with 1095 you will get some of what I call flash hardening, where the hardening line will be higher that where the blade was in the oil from the oil flashing off from the heat and cooling it above the level of the oil. and thickness and intended grind plus how tough or springy the finished knife needs to be all comes into account.
Joe Calton Thanks fro the response. Do you ever use this method with old school water or brine quenching.
I will be trying this method but with L6 Steel (8670). The “knives” in mind will be a machete that is 2.5mm (3/32”) thick, and later a Katana that is 8.3mm thick (1/3”).
I know that most people will say to quench deep hardening steels in oil, but I’m wondering if a really fast interrupted edge quench some with brine/water is possible with L6.
I’ve read some people have water quenched with O1, 5160, L6 etc.
What do you think? Thanks.
@@Divine_Serpent_Geh L6 is NOT 8670. You can make Damascus with L6. I got stuck being the heat treater at a machine shop and got pretty good at learning the old tool steels especially. Make exceptional D2 knives.
@@MountainFisher A lot has changed since I posted this comment. Yes, L6 is definitely not 8670. The source I obtained that information from was mistaken. As far as I learned, true L6 air-hardens if you not careful.
I didn’t end up using any of those. For the past year I’ve been experimenting and doing the best I possibly can with simple tool steels like W1/W2 and 1095. I love differential gardening since I’m mainly into larger blades. It’s also better for me because my heat treating equipment is minimal. I eventually decided not to pursue the more complicated tool steels because without optimum heat treat, there’s really no point. Perhaps later down the road. But it depends...
I really love the fact of having a differentially hardened knife with a thick spine and an edge hardened and tempered for maximum edge strength and stability running between 65-67 hrc.
@@Divine_Serpent_Geh I have some 1095 I did that to, but beware because it chips if you hit a bone skinning a deer. You know Alpha Knife Supply has some made for forging CruforgeV if you want a hard edge that isn't prone to chipping. It is basically W1 with vanadium to make vanadium carbides, which btw are harder than tungsten carbides. Invest in some top notch grinding belts though.
Aaaand subscribed. Thanks for the video sir.
Great video Joe!
thanks Philip!
Where can I see your knives please?
caltoncutlery.com
52100 is a bearing steel that can keep an edge well enough for a knife.
52100 has 3 to 10 elements in the alloy besides carbon like any which only 1 of the 10 is chromium.
1095 is just 0.95 carbon steel which is about as hard as you want to get for a blade as it is a tad to brittle if honest.
1060 to 1090 or anything in-between is better for a blade but 1095 can be used if the geometry is made to compensate for the brittle nature of the material but it is not run of the mill shed & workshop doable.
1095 & up even as plain carbon steel is beyond most peoples set ups.
If you know how to treat bearing in a kitchen oven then it is not hard to work with 52100 but I'm not sharing all the methods.
52100 partially contains silicon making it partly an electrical insulation steel.
Bearing steel for knifes is a tad much unless you need blade with a very high loading bearing application or a partial insulation to electricity.
So you know 52100 is family of steels that have many designation for the carbon alone ranges from 0.8% to 1.1% depending on the grade.
If you cannot read grades then 51200 is a not a steel I recommend for blade making because above shy of 1% carbon the failure point is increased considerable in shear brittle fracture.
I would recommend 420 & or 440 cutlery grade stainless steel as the hardness is plenty with nice edge retention.
316 is food & surgical grade stainless steel with high corrosion resistance that is non magnetic.
316 is good enough for surgeons & frankly is much easier to work with if you are patient & don't over grind it in one go as it don't like getting hot.
Till my failed health I worked in a tube fabrication company that specialised mainly in cooling & surgical equipment.
You have superior surgical steels to 316 but they take a lot more know how to work.
316 is about twice the labour of general aluminium work for perspective.
Anything more then 316 for a blade is over the top & 52100 is a wonderful steel but an odd choice for a blade though it works you could have used it for tank turret bearing or something far more useful!
It's like having a golden toilet as it can be done but why?
Is your backside that special you need 51200 for a knife?
316 is very high chromium above 16% & the molybdenum is 2% minimum making it very hard & so you can't use run of the mill tool bits to machine it etcetera.
it's roughly 12% nickel makes it have shape retention & brilliant corrosion resistance & hardness due to it's crystalline structure with chromium.
For a modest sized blade of about hacksaw length or smaller you cannot get better then 316 unless you want to be bankrupt.
If about 28 inches or less then 316 is your best bet far more then bearing steel that doesn't like to be long due to it's brittle properties.
Internal stresses are a thing & most stainless does not like being to long or it tends to flex under it's own weight which is why large steel pieces are chromium plated as it off sets this issue.
If both were forged how much difference would there be?
I don't know, I do forge some 1095, but I have not found it in larger cross sections like 2" round. so forging a knife from say 1/4" x 1" 1095 and comparing it to a knife forged from 2" round 52100 wouldn't be a very equal comparison. with 1/4" stock you just don't have a lot of material for the heat cycles to really help a lot as you reduce it.
No offense, but your video was very long. What is the verdict? My understanding was always 52100 > 5160 > 1095 Cro-Van > 1095. That said, it all depends on the heat treat, and Ontario Knife Company (RIP} wrote an entire article on why they switched all their 1095 blades to 1075, because 1075 is tougher, with less edge retention than 1095, but 1095 is extremely unforgiving when it comes to heat treatment. In essence, OKC had catastrophic failures of their 1095 blades, because the heat treat wasn't optimal. Admittedly, despite having a master's in ME, I know nothing about the heat treat process for 52100 or 5160. I just know that when I upgrade the leaf sorings on my SUV, I'm going to ask a custom knife maker to make me some sick 5160 blades, including a machete! In all seriousness, we only get one class on materials science in ME. I know about heat treatment, but not which carbon steels are superior.
Isn't 1095 alot easier to burr and deburr as well?
overall for 1095 from all makers, that might be a good way to think about it. 1095 is typically run much softer than it can be in factory knives to gain some toughness. since I am not a factory cranking out a gazillion knives a day, I usually do a differential heat treat that leaves the edge at its optimal working hardness, and then leave the spine softer for toughness. so in that case, I would have to pay real close attention to see if there is any difference in sharpening between my 1095 and my 52100, but I haven't ever noticed a difference in just working with them, they are both easy to sharpen.
@@joecalton1449 that's Amazing. You work hard to perfect your craft and it shows Joe! 👍
your a hybrid 🙏
I want to make some plan irons.
I know nothing. about specialty metals.
Very good. Thanks.
Is new jersey steel baron any good?
Aldo is good.
Yes.
They supply Ferrum Forge with Nitro V... My Nitro V is starting to rust... I don't live in a moist environment at all...
I thought you were going to that about the difference 😢👎
15 min 22 min
Funny, I thought my problems with 52100 was due to me. Maybe not. Probably not because I haven't had an issue with other steels.
try out some 52100e round bar from mcmaster carr in 5/8" or larger. or jantz started selling 52100 in round stock also and i have used a couple feet of it and it seems nice and clean with no surprises.
Its all in the heat treat
nEw jErZeEeeY sTeEl bArOn!! Bad 1095, right?
i have not had very good luck with that particular supplier. but it has been at least 10 years since I have purchased steel from there.