Rob Simonich used to do nail cutting to promote his knives/steels (Paul Bos HT). Whenever anyone did anything like that I was always curious as to what it meant/said about the knife/steel. I would just duplicate it and see what happened. With the nail cutting after doing about a thousand cuts, I determined it was so sensitive to technique I would never be able to infer anything from watching/or knowing someone else did it. I could barely know anything myself. At the end I could take knives which were 0.010"/15 dps in D2 at 62 HRC and cut through 4" nails with them with careful technique. It was mainly about keeping the knife extremely close to perpendicular, making sure the nail wasn't moving around, and just tapping it through. I figure I could (maybe) put some kind of metric on it by restricting the number of hits, but the influence of technique was still so demanding. I could easily damage an AUS-8 blade at 58/59 HRC over the D2 if I was just a bit sloppy. In general toughness tests are demanding for the user because they are so sensitive to conditions which can easy vary enough to make a change far bigger than the steel. About the simplest setup I can think which would be decent would be if you just swung a knife (through a pendulum) under a given energy (weight/height) and impacted it against hard targets. That's fairly easy to set up and quantify, and it similar to a charpy test of sorts.
Thanks for sharing Cliff. Larrin did an article on Frank Richtig which was interesting, he hammered through bars of mild steel with fairly thin knives and the secret (technique) he was using for his demonstrations died with him. Larrin is the one who has the device you speak off. It was a rather expensive device but very interesting. I'm not promoting a universal nail test. I am a caveman that needed a quick test that was destructive enough to show differences between some variables in the same knife that the lay person can contextualize.
@@CliffStamp no i agree the cliff guy dont know who he his other than he often gets blades with the handle or edge upside down. But he stamps his approval i guess 😁
Very impressive! I have seen knives with bigger chips that were A2, around 58 HRC with 25 thou behind the edge, with a convex. And i was just hitting wood, not nails lol. There is a lot you can learn on this channel. Thanks man!
You're one of few people who put intelligent knife content on youtube - or least intelligent-seeming, as we keep going down the rabbit hole, eg re: Cliff's (RIP) excellent comments below. Regardless, I appreciate that you try to meaningfully address issues on a foundational level and from a clear perspective, and your content is unique - I see a little bit of Cliff in that.
The ideals you're striving to perfect are right in line with the serious end user. I love taking, game/ fish and then rendering them down to the best of my ability. Superior tools greatly improve the end result. Love what you do, thanks for showing us and educating your fanbase.
This is why I'm a fan of steels like 52100, Nitrobe 77, Aeb-l, Nitro-v and all Sandvick steels. With a good heat treat( at least 60hrc, but higher is better) and a nice grind they perform amazing. Got a small fixed blade with Aeb-l at 63hrc and around 0.010 for most of it except the tip. I haven't chopped through nails but I did shave on one and the edge acted like it was nothing. I'd love to get a river blade from you, just wouldn't know which steel to choose. VanCron 40?!?!
amazing stuff mate! these vids are important because as you said people have it all wrong when they think what they need vs what they really need in a knife!
I work in the woods a lot, and I need toughness --doesn't roll or chip--in my knives far more than edge retention. All too often I grab my knife from sheath, slash a vine near the ground surface, and ping--I just hit a rock beneath the sandy soil. I have not found any steel that does not chip, but there is certainly a matter of degree. Ok, I sharpened my loppers, and I am using them mostly. I am tried of fixing chips. I have not had an issue with wood causing chips, but I generally use a knife with a tougher steel or my machete. Good video about the different factors that determine toughness.
Geometry is a big factor for that, I find if ya just make the edge thicker the next time ya sharpen it works itself out. I like knives that have focus on cutting since it's not as simple to make thicker, going thinner means the underlying HT, processing and steel needs to be up for the challenge rather than just adding thicker geometry.
@@FearNoSteelyep, though S7 or maybe even 8640 or something would be tough enough at enough hardness to take the hit without chipping or denying too much. You need a bit of both to get an edge that holds stable, whichever way you go. Too much toughness without hardness is just ductile, too much hardness without toughness is just brittle.
I thank your Patreon supporters too since they let me watch and learn this cool stuff. What you just did is what Buck Knives used to advertised to sell knives. It was sort of big deal when I bought my first Buck knife. I never tried it, we had chisels on the farm for that. I understand they came to regret this advertisement choice for the obvious reasons :)
Very informative Shaun! I love how you put the engineering back into cutlery and not just follow the "well, so and so does things this way, so I'll do things this way" method of knife making - other makers are concerned with making things pretty, you're pushing the edges (pun kinda intended) of edge performance! Also, nice little reality check playing with 52100, while everyone is advocating for higher and higher carbide steels. Wish there was someone who explains things like you out there offering sharpening courses
You are such a badass 👊 🤛 your living my dream with the knowledge you have and skills and your dedication to follow your passion, I need to move so I can try to build a work shop
Do you carry and use your own knives regularly? If so, what sort of cutting is it? Love the knives and channel. It’s kept real and educational. You don’t waste our time, so thanks!
I have a Rex 121 Trapper and a S45VN belt trapper that I like to carry and use around the shop. I like to use them meticulously and love precision cuts. Thanks man, I appreciate the love.
And if we are throwing around options now I carry a police 4 k390 for knife stuff and a smallish fixed blade for things I shouldn’t do with a knife but know I Will around the farm The k390 with the p4 geometry is my absolute favorite for a long while now
Hallelujah! To many whiney noses complain about their knives and do not actually know the functionality, purpose, or even why they bought the knife in the first place! 92% of the time is, "I liked the way it looked, and that has a kick-ass design...". Know what you are getting, use it within reasonable limits, perform maintenance, and the fuckin' knife will do what it's supposed to do and last forever! Fine, fine job on this demo once again, brother!
Designing knives to cut 👍👍👍👍. Not sure why people think knives should cut nails. Thats what cold chisels are designed for. However cold chisel edge geometry makes a poor knife. Thats why we have different tools for different jobs. 😊😊
Great vid. Knaf folk tend to chase what they want vs what they need for day to day cutting. Aslo, understanding how forgiving that geometry is to sloppy use vs professional use. Many look at your vids and think that you made a magical blade as they watch you cut through nails, not realizing that your a pro user.
@@FearNoSteel true. No knock on your heat treat prowess. Followed you long enough to know you continue to push the limits to achieve maximum performance. Keep it up
Yep. Japanese blades are run hard and high carbon, and very thin, maximising edge retention and cutting efficiency. Most knives are still pretty thick compared to what they could do. Edge stability is king. You can go for higher hardness or higher toughness but you need a good ratio between them for edge stability. High toughness in a soft steel is just ductile, and high hardness without toughness is just brittle. A hard 5160 would be a great chopper and better than soft 1095.
As an aside, that knife showed brittle failure, that just means when it fails, it does so with little (to no) plastic deformation. A knife can have an extreme high UTS point, and still be brittle, it is in the nature of the failure, not the level of resistance to it. It does look like it has high apex stability as it retained a high sharpness while doing work which is likely to roll or cause carbide related fractures at the apex, but I would want to see a comparison in something like ATS-34 at 63/65 HRC, or 10V at 65/67 HRC to be confident, as if they don't fail either, the test itself might not be generating enough stress.
Fair enough, not shown, not known. In my experience the 52100 with proper HT is less prone to chipping at the edge than a carbide blasted steel but that's not to say 52100 is superior for all circumstances. I enjoy the merits that 52100 offers but I am more partial to steels like 15v that simply cut longer without blunting smoothly with heavy cutting.
@@CliffStamp that nitrobe 77 you told me to try was very very interesting, the wear resistance was low but it was very impressive to sharpen and very nice with thin geometry. Labor intensive HT though.
@@FearNoSteel Yeah, it is very demanding to ensure no retained austenite in high nitrogen steels assuming you want max hardness as nitrogen is a strong austenite stabilizer. I am not sure these steels have functionality outside of extreme corrosion, as you can get 63-65 HRC in AEBL, depending on how fancy you want to get (see Landes for example who water quenches after tempering, etc.).
The water quench between tempers is not as significant a factor for Increasing HRC on AEBL as much as the time and temps used during Aus and temper and doing immediate cryo after quench. In my testing, there were no changes to HRC when doing a second cryo in-between tempers or water quench after tempers, however, there may be benefits to the microstructure that is beyond what the Rockwell tester can show, perhaps shifts preference for more desirable constituents in the microstructure that may give increases in YS but not UTS at the edge.
I love my white #2 steel in the kitchen masamoto KS still the finest knife I have. But been looking for a decent stainless solution for years. Clad blue #2 is slightly better but I do miss a stainless solution. VG10 is crap chippy garbage. Still looking for a stainless solution for the kitchen.
i wonder what 52100 would do against a 5160. 52100 at 55-57 hrc would have comparable toughness but greater edge retention ( i have a 52100 sword in mind when i make this comment)
For swords? No idea, I make knives. I would think the advantage of higher wear resistance is lost on a sword and that dropping the carbides like 5160 does is probably better for what a sword does, I have no interest in swords however.
Your grinds and thin edge profiles are really well done. It nice to see someone actually take something down to such a fine edge and see what it’s capable of handling. Do you do regrinds on production knives? I have a Delica ffg in VG-10 that I have always wondered how much more I would like it if it had a thinner blade.
No worries, are you only taking custom orders or do you have some ready for sale? I’m looking for a 3 inch fixed blade laser that’s lightweight. It will be a backpack knife used to skin small game and trout.
Maybe a dumb question here,, it took me about four years just to confidently get to the point of making a good knife. Now I want to start pushing simple steels i use to the limit, trying to get the most from them. Is there any different kind of bevel or honing/buffing you can put on a super thin hard knife edge like that with that same geometry, That can help it handle that nail chop. But still not lose much cutting performance?
Ya should respect that geometry and hardness, those features are counteractive to chopping a nail at such an extreme, I showed this in the video when I was able to chop the nail with thicker geometry
You have to remember that when I share a video like this I'm pulling back the curtain on the inner workings of what makes things work. That opens me up to a lot of criticism from folks that think they could do things better. I could always just say that something is super thin not give any measurements of geometry etc and chop the nail at a geometry I know will have no problems and receive all the accolades for it but instead I show the reality of things here.
Rick, it's not the hardness of the overall Matrix that determines that, its the carbides. MC3 Cr rich iron Carbides at ~ 6% volume and ~1200 HV is not going to interfere with the Ceramic abrasive grains at ~1600 HV which are harder, it's when we get Vanadium Carbides(~2800hv) at Significant volume and high matrix hardness that prevents the abrasive grains from cutting around them as easy making it a total goat fuck to use ceramic for that. So it's not an issue for 52100 no matter the hardness, just make sure the stone is flat and dressed.
So how do you feel about spydies treatment of the 52100??? I have no idea how hard they get it or if they even do it properly but i do own the carbon fiber para3 in 52100 (safe queen)
@@FearNoSteel no no ofcourse not i was not comparing simply jusasking your opinion on their treatment using this same steel bro lol so how does the spydie 52100 hold up lateral strength
Thanks for taking your time to shoot and upload this video. I'm not sure I understood you well, cause around 1m mark you noted that 52100 doesn't have the most agressive edge, nor does it set any records in terms of edge retention. Then you talk and demonstrate so called 'edge stability'. The differences between edge retention and edge stability are pretty elusive to me. Knife's edge looses cutting ability when it receives too many micro ships or edge rolling (lets just call it edge damage). The ability to withstanding micro edge damage is what I think 'edge retention' is. And thus in my eyes 'edge stability' is pretty much the same thing. Is it the place where I mistake? If I'm not mistaken, then it's unclear why would you bring steel to such a hardness if it doesn't bring better edge retention (you said about edge retention around 1m mark) Please pardon my English, I'm not a native speaker.
Harder with stable microstructure means better support for thinner geometry, I demonstrated that the 52100 could be thin and hard with the right microstructure and still stable on the blackwood. The Carbides are one of the most significant factors to edge aggression and wear resistance. While the steel is harder at 66rc it won't be more wear resistant than s90v at 60rc despite the higher hardness of 52100. Why? Well there is some good reading in the link I sent.
@@FearNoSteel yeah I've read that blog. Can't say I understand everything, but still. I'm not really interested in direct comparison between 52100 and other steels. But I wondered why you pushed 52100 to such hardness. In my understanding the only reason to cook steel such hard is to get better edge retention (compared to the same steel at softer hardness) Let me rephrase my question. Imagine you heat treated two pieces of steel, one at 66hrc, other at let say 62. How much of a difference there will be in normal use? I had a nice collection of high end kitchen knives from modern knife makers. There were 2 knives one at 65hrc. To be honest I haven't noticed much difference between then and knives at 61-62hrc.
@@antonkudris read the first part of the answer I gave you above again, because if you go thinner and the structure is not stronger it will roll over in normal use while cutting without having the support of thicker geometry. So if thinner geometry cuts better but needs more support it needs to be stronger. The Carbides control wear resistance and they don't really change with HT like they do with the steel chemistry. It's pretty straight forward.
I’ve always said it, people don’t give this “spring” steels enough “knife” cred. There’s a reason Collins uses it on their high end axes. Toughness makes any impact tool better, full stop. I wish we saw more “hard use” knives use it so they could maintain better cutting geometry while still remaining hard use. Especially considering how cheap the stuff is.
It would still need to be thicker geometry to support the steel so it doesn't roll in use. Also it would wear smooth easy in cutting tasks comparatively and be more stubborn to deburr and apex if heat treated for maximum impact toughness. There is no fairly tale steel, they all have trade-offs just like everything in the real world, nothing wrong with getting something that suits your preferences my man. It's fun to have something rough and tough though.
Big Brown Bear oh, don’t get me wrong, I understand that, everything is a ballencing act it steels. I’m talking using this steel over other really simple steels in things like machetes or “survival” knives. I can’t imagine it would be too much more expensive. And if it makes them more abuse resistance at a similar given hardness or the same toughness at higher hardness or allows for a thinner edge I’m not sure what the real down shot really is. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
@@macmurfy2jka I don't understand, you mean 52100 at 66rc for a machete/survival knife? I don't think that would be cost effective to heat treat and grind for production margins.
Big Brown Bear nah that would be silly. I’m assuming you took this up to a really high hardness and then tempered the stresses for a long time? No I’m just interested using this steel over something like 1075 or 1095, and bringing the hardness closer to say 60 with somewhat better cutting geometry, then letting the steel’s mechanical properties provide a margin of safety for use. My guess is that doing this would produce better users at a price that still allows them to be semi disposable, like any good user should be. I mean, to my knowledge, that’s how allot of the “good” tools seem to be made in 3rd world backwaters (using truck springs). It just seems like an under developed section of the knife market. Mid range knives that make better users. I might be missing something, as all of this is from a bird’s eye view. Studied materials properties and manufacturing techniques in a few classes in college, but most of my user experience comes in the forms of simpler HighCarbon steels. Never could afford big pieces of M4, O1, etc. I don’t have any personal experience with the steel as so few makers use it and I’ve never ground any of it into a knife personally. Is it just too hard heat treat? Performance gains not economical/ margins too slim? I just think that the steel is largely overlooked.
That is why I like civivi and Steel will. They actually make thin TBTE (thickness behind the edge) knives. The steel is not even NEARLY as good as yours, but what can you expect for under a hundred bucks? I like spyderco designs but the TBTE is never as thin as I would like it. When I can, you bet your ASS i am gonna get a knife from you.
I love how you go from scientific and proper to; "... but unfortunately reality is that you need thicker geometry if your gonna chop through fucking nails..." Like if you have dealt with people before.
Two things thin knives can't cut is time and cost. It rewards skilled users, and holds ppl accountable. Reckless users, who refuse to see not only what they cut, or what's behind what they cut wont enjoy the experience very long. Ceramic tile, concerete walls, various metals etc are going to be the enemy. I carry production knives as convenience. I cut frequently over a tile floor so mishaps aren't noticeable given my skill set. When I'm cutting drywall I'm using a utility knife. Just makes common sense to use replaceable blades when I'm cutting stuff like that. And since I own a lazer of yours, I prefer it in the kitchen over a cutting board. Cut about 10 apples a week with it. BD1N is never going to be a hot Rod steel but as a user I'm controlling the environment so edge damage is avoided. This vids about 52100 tho. Custom heat treated 52100 to be accurate. Just a solid, high enjoyable steel that gets overlooked.
Rob Simonich used to do nail cutting to promote his knives/steels (Paul Bos HT). Whenever anyone did anything like that I was always curious as to what it meant/said about the knife/steel. I would just duplicate it and see what happened. With the nail cutting after doing about a thousand cuts, I determined it was so sensitive to technique I would never be able to infer anything from watching/or knowing someone else did it. I could barely know anything myself.
At the end I could take knives which were 0.010"/15 dps in D2 at 62 HRC and cut through 4" nails with them with careful technique. It was mainly about keeping the knife extremely close to perpendicular, making sure the nail wasn't moving around, and just tapping it through. I figure I could (maybe) put some kind of metric on it by restricting the number of hits, but the influence of technique was still so demanding. I could easily damage an AUS-8 blade at 58/59 HRC over the D2 if I was just a bit sloppy.
In general toughness tests are demanding for the user because they are so sensitive to conditions which can easy vary enough to make a change far bigger than the steel. About the simplest setup I can think which would be decent would be if you just swung a knife (through a pendulum) under a given energy (weight/height) and impacted it against hard targets. That's fairly easy to set up and quantify, and it similar to a charpy test of sorts.
Thanks for sharing Cliff.
Larrin did an article on Frank Richtig which was interesting, he hammered through bars of mild steel with fairly thin knives and the secret (technique) he was using for his demonstrations died with him.
Larrin is the one who has the device you speak off. It was a rather expensive device but very interesting.
I'm not promoting a universal nail test. I am a caveman that needed a quick test that was destructive enough to show differences between some variables in the same knife that the lay person can contextualize.
Rip cliff stamp
You remind me a lot of Cliffstamp in his extensive knowledge of knife steels and geometry. I wish he watched and commented on your videos.
I've seen him comment on a few I'm sure he watches at least some
No one needs Cliff Stamp watching and/or commenting on their videos.
@@CliffStamp Woohoo!
@@CliffStamp hahaha
@@CliffStamp no i agree the cliff guy dont know who he his other than he often gets blades with the handle or edge upside down. But he stamps his approval i guess 😁
Nice, you did a good job with this blade. Very few are willing to harden it to 66 HRC unfortunately.
Very impressive!
I have seen knives with bigger chips that were A2, around 58 HRC with 25 thou behind the edge, with a convex. And i was just hitting wood, not nails lol.
There is a lot you can learn on this channel. Thanks man!
You're one of few people who put intelligent knife content on youtube - or least intelligent-seeming, as we keep going down the rabbit hole, eg re: Cliff's (RIP) excellent comments below. Regardless, I appreciate that you try to meaningfully address issues on a foundational level and from a clear perspective, and your content is unique - I see a little bit of Cliff in that.
The ideals you're striving to perfect are right in line with the serious end user. I love taking, game/ fish and then rendering them down to the best of my ability. Superior tools greatly improve the end result. Love what you do, thanks for showing us and educating your fanbase.
One of the best channels on YT! Very informative, great content, no BS or dramatics. Definitely need to get one of your knives at some point!
Thanks homie, I appreciate it
Just an outstanding video I’ve watched it maybe 10 times throughout the years and every time I watch it I learn something new you’re genius
This is why I'm a fan of steels like 52100, Nitrobe 77, Aeb-l, Nitro-v and all Sandvick steels. With a good heat treat( at least 60hrc, but higher is better) and a nice grind they perform amazing. Got a small fixed blade with Aeb-l at 63hrc and around 0.010 for most of it except the tip. I haven't chopped through nails but I did shave on one and the edge acted like it was nothing. I'd love to get a river blade from you, just wouldn't know which steel to choose. VanCron 40?!?!
amazing stuff mate! these vids are important because as you said people have it all wrong when they think what they need vs what they really need in a knife!
Just subscribed because I think you know a whole lot of useful information about knives and knives’ steels. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
I work in the woods a lot, and I need toughness --doesn't roll or chip--in my knives far more than edge retention. All too often I grab my knife from sheath, slash a vine near the ground surface, and ping--I just hit a rock beneath the sandy soil. I have not found any steel that does not chip, but there is certainly a matter of degree. Ok, I sharpened my loppers, and I am using them mostly. I am tried of fixing chips. I have not had an issue with wood causing chips, but I generally use a knife with a tougher steel or my machete. Good video about the different factors that determine toughness.
Geometry is a big factor for that, I find if ya just make the edge thicker the next time ya sharpen it works itself out. I like knives that have focus on cutting since it's not as simple to make thicker, going thinner means the underlying HT, processing and steel needs to be up for the challenge rather than just adding thicker geometry.
@@FearNoSteelyep, though S7 or maybe even 8640 or something would be tough enough at enough hardness to take the hit without chipping or denying too much. You need a bit of both to get an edge that holds stable, whichever way you go. Too much toughness without hardness is just ductile, too much hardness without toughness is just brittle.
I thank your Patreon supporters too since they let me watch and learn this cool stuff.
What you just did is what Buck Knives used to advertised to sell knives. It was sort of big deal when I bought my first Buck knife. I never tried it, we had chisels on the farm for that. I understand they came to regret this advertisement choice for the obvious reasons :)
I want toughness in my choppers, edge stability in my smaller knives and folders and relative stainlessness if it will get wet a lot.
On a marathon of your content. I Love it. I’m sorta new to knives.my friend got me hooked. I’m like 2 months in.
Very informative Shaun! I love how you put the engineering back into cutlery and not just follow the "well, so and so does things this way, so I'll do things this way" method of knife making - other makers are concerned with making things pretty, you're pushing the edges (pun kinda intended) of edge performance! Also, nice little reality check playing with 52100, while everyone is advocating for higher and higher carbide steels. Wish there was someone who explains things like you out there offering sharpening courses
Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments :D
Irony is he plays with higher carbide steels unlike most people.
@@svn5994steels with so much carbide, there's almost more of everything other than iron..
Thanks for the video Sean. You’re somebody who I actually consider supporting on patreon. In due time.
Haha that is ridiculously hard, nice job
Man that is impressive, nice work!
Very interesting testing here...
Thanks for sharing and keep up the great work...
You are such a badass 👊 🤛 your living my dream with the knowledge you have and skills and your dedication to follow your passion, I need to move so I can try to build a work shop
Such great testing and care in your knives💪
Somehow missed this video
I would not call this a fail I thought the results were pretty amazing I was waiting for the chips to fly or just a snap
I've been working so much I missed this video, that was my problem!
Do you carry and use your own knives regularly? If so, what sort of cutting is it?
Love the knives and channel.
It’s kept real and educational.
You don’t waste our time, so thanks!
I have a Rex 121 Trapper and a S45VN belt trapper that I like to carry and use around the shop. I like to use them meticulously and love precision cuts. Thanks man, I appreciate the love.
Well said. Knives are not indestructible but are cutting tools first and foremost.
Good stuff man. Keep pushing the envelope!
Big Brown BOSS!!!
First! Thanks homie
BIg Brown BATONING!!!
And if we are throwing around options now I carry a police 4 k390 for knife stuff and a smallish fixed blade for things I shouldn’t do with a knife but know I Will around the farm
The k390 with the p4 geometry is my absolute favorite for a long while now
Would so damn much to love test that
Hallelujah! To many whiney noses complain about their knives and do not actually know the functionality, purpose, or even why they bought the knife in the first place! 92% of the time is, "I liked the way it looked, and that has a kick-ass design...". Know what you are getting, use it within reasonable limits, perform maintenance, and the fuckin' knife will do what it's supposed to do and last forever! Fine, fine job on this demo once again, brother!
great video and great points made
Designing knives to cut 👍👍👍👍.
Not sure why people think knives should cut nails. Thats what cold chisels are designed for. However cold chisel edge geometry makes a poor knife. Thats why we have different tools for different jobs. 😊😊
That blade profile would make a fine skinner. 👍
52100 in 66hrc sounds like a good sujihiki or yanagiba made in that steel with same heat treat and hardness.👌🏾👍
Try solid copper wire durability test for practical test?
Yeah... Subscribed.... Like a boss 🤘🤘🤘
Damn, thats some knowledge right there
Nice job thanks for the y😎👍
Awesome video bro!! 🫡🦅
I just got me a cold steel drop forged survivalist 😂
Good vid brother man!!!
I'm sorry but I'm late in the game could PLEASE explain your heat treat and temper process
Proper triple b video. Love it
Thanks for the video 😎👍
Purpose built, you can take a Lamborghini to the muddy trails, but that doesn't make it a good fukn idea! Lol, great job!
Nailed it.
Good lord I need this recipe 🤯🤩
Do you post heat treat recipes anywhere?
Great vid. Knaf folk tend to chase what they want vs what they need for day to day cutting. Aslo, understanding how forgiving that geometry is to sloppy use vs professional use. Many look at your vids and think that you made a magical blade as they watch you cut through nails, not realizing that your a pro user.
it's still 52100 at 66rc with a badass microstructure. I could "pro user" all day but if it was shit, it would be shit.
@@FearNoSteel true. No knock on your heat treat prowess. Followed you long enough to know you continue to push the limits to achieve maximum performance. Keep it up
Yep. Japanese blades are run hard and high carbon, and very thin, maximising edge retention and cutting efficiency.
Most knives are still pretty thick compared to what they could do.
Edge stability is king. You can go for higher hardness or higher toughness but you need a good ratio between them for edge stability. High toughness in a soft steel is just ductile, and high hardness without toughness is just brittle. A hard 5160 would be a great chopper and better than soft 1095.
As an aside, that knife showed brittle failure, that just means when it fails, it does so with little (to no) plastic deformation. A knife can have an extreme high UTS point, and still be brittle, it is in the nature of the failure, not the level of resistance to it.
It does look like it has high apex stability as it retained a high sharpness while doing work which is likely to roll or cause carbide related fractures at the apex, but I would want to see a comparison in something like ATS-34 at 63/65 HRC, or 10V at 65/67 HRC to be confident, as if they don't fail either, the test itself might not be generating enough stress.
Fair enough, not shown, not known. In my experience the 52100 with proper HT is less prone to chipping at the edge than a carbide blasted steel but that's not to say 52100 is superior for all circumstances. I enjoy the merits that 52100 offers but I am more partial to steels like 15v that simply cut longer without blunting smoothly with heavy cutting.
@@FearNoSteel Yes, I like it for almost the same reasons, and AEB-L (and similar nitrogen steels) in stainless as they have similar behavior.
@@CliffStamp that nitrobe 77 you told me to try was very very interesting, the wear resistance was low but it was very impressive to sharpen and very nice with thin geometry. Labor intensive HT though.
@@FearNoSteel Yeah, it is very demanding to ensure no retained austenite in high nitrogen steels assuming you want max hardness as nitrogen is a strong austenite stabilizer. I am not sure these steels have functionality outside of extreme corrosion, as you can get 63-65 HRC in AEBL, depending on how fancy you want to get (see Landes for example who water quenches after tempering, etc.).
The water quench between tempers is not as significant a factor for Increasing HRC on AEBL as much as the time and temps used during Aus and temper and doing immediate cryo after quench. In my testing, there were no changes to HRC when doing a second cryo in-between tempers or water quench after tempers, however, there may be benefits to the microstructure that is beyond what the Rockwell tester can show, perhaps shifts preference for more desirable constituents in the microstructure that may give increases in YS but not UTS at the edge.
I'm a starting out knife maker. What's your heat treat process. How do I contact you. Or can i
Nice honest video
There are a couple makers of custom timber framing chisels in 52100 also taking the blades up to65-66 HRC. What’s the corrosion resistance like.
52100 doesn't have any corrison resistance, it is prone to rust and patina.
I love my white #2 steel in the kitchen masamoto KS still the finest knife I have. But been looking for a decent stainless solution for years. Clad blue #2 is slightly better but I do miss a stainless solution. VG10 is crap chippy garbage. Still looking for a stainless solution for the kitchen.
When scientists talking 💪
Yikes, I gotta say, I always cringe when you break out the anvil and a knife together BBB! Very informative though sir! Thanks for posting!
Man I love you
I love this video
How does 52100 compare to LC200N and AEB-L in terms of edge stability?
at 66hrc
52100 will eat all of them
i wonder what 52100 would do against a 5160. 52100 at 55-57 hrc would have comparable toughness but greater edge retention ( i have a 52100 sword in mind when i make this comment)
52100 does not have comparable toughness to 5160. 5160 is a lot tougher.
For swords? No idea, I make knives. I would think the advantage of higher wear resistance is lost on a sword and that dropping the carbides like 5160 does is probably better for what a sword does, I have no interest in swords however.
Very cool man
How did you get so good at sharpening knives? I am envious at how simple you make it look in your videos.
Please tell me you didn't remove the horn of your anvil testing knife edges 😂🤣
Your grinds and thin edge profiles are really well done. It nice to see someone actually take something down to such a fine edge and see what it’s capable of handling. Do you do regrinds on production knives? I have a Delica ffg in VG-10 that I have always wondered how much more I would like it if it had a thinner blade.
Thanks, I appreciate it. They run the VG10 on the softer side, currently I'm just too busy with custom work for regrinds.
No worries, are you only taking custom orders or do you have some ready for sale? I’m looking for a 3 inch fixed blade laser that’s lightweight. It will be a backpack knife used to skin small game and trout.
@@MrLongboarder87 I just make and sell what I get done, keeps me creative and from dying of boredom.
Do you have a site? I’d like to see what you have available.
@@MrLongboarder87 triplebhandmade.com is the website, I got some knives I'm going to put up soon that I just finished on my IG @triplebhandmade
Maybe a dumb question here,, it took me about four years just to confidently get to the point of making a good knife. Now I want to start pushing simple steels i use to the limit, trying to get the most from them. Is there any different kind of bevel or honing/buffing you can put on a super thin hard knife edge like that with that same geometry,
That can help it handle that nail chop. But still not lose much cutting performance?
Ya should respect that geometry and hardness, those features are counteractive to chopping a nail at such an extreme, I showed this in the video when I was able to chop the nail with thicker geometry
You have to remember that when I share a video like this I'm pulling back the curtain on the inner workings of what makes things work.
That opens me up to a lot of criticism from folks that think they could do things better.
I could always just say that something is super thin not give any measurements of geometry etc and chop the nail at a geometry I know will have no problems and receive all the accolades for it but instead I show the reality of things here.
@@FearNoSteel thank you for your honesty and pushing knives to their limits!
Did you include something like bluntcut's marquench in your HT or are you following the more conventional methods?
Marquench? Nah. Conventional? Nah. Custom protocol, processing prior to Aus. Cryo, etc. No spec sheet shit, custom curves.
Amazing :)
The Picasso of steel...
I only have ceramics water stones how much of a mess would this be to sharpen on a chosara 800?
Rick, it's not the hardness of the overall Matrix that determines that, its the carbides. MC3 Cr rich iron Carbides at ~ 6% volume and ~1200 HV is not going to interfere with the Ceramic abrasive grains at ~1600 HV which are harder, it's when we get Vanadium Carbides(~2800hv) at Significant volume and high matrix hardness that prevents the abrasive grains from cutting around them as easy making it a total goat fuck to use ceramic for that. So it's not an issue for 52100 no matter the hardness, just make sure the stone is flat and dressed.
@@FearNoSteel Thanks a ton for replying. This totally makes sense.
i would love one of these. you taking orders?
Just make and sell, no orders
How thin a regrind would a maxamet manix 2 handle do you think?
Love your work man!
Depends on the end user and what they use it for and their skill level with using.
🤯
So how do you feel about spydies treatment of the 52100??? I have no idea how hard they get it or if they even do it properly but i do own the carbon fiber para3 in 52100 (safe queen)
I believe it was around 62rc, use it up man. Love me some spydies. Not fair to compare to this test.
@@FearNoSteel no no ofcourse not i was not comparing simply jusasking your opinion on their treatment using this same steel bro lol so how does the spydie 52100 hold up lateral strength
@@kevinAuman1 I haven't had the time to test it
What's the heat treatment???
That's crazy
Are you making knife just for batoning nails? Wow 😳😳😳
Thanks for taking your time to shoot and upload this video.
I'm not sure I understood you well, cause around 1m mark you noted that 52100 doesn't have the most agressive edge, nor does it set any records in terms of edge retention. Then you talk and demonstrate so called 'edge stability'. The differences between edge retention and edge stability are pretty elusive to me. Knife's edge looses cutting ability when it receives too many micro ships or edge rolling (lets just call it edge damage). The ability to withstanding micro edge damage is what I think 'edge retention' is. And thus in my eyes 'edge stability' is pretty much the same thing. Is it the place where I mistake?
If I'm not mistaken, then it's unclear why would you bring steel to such a hardness if it doesn't bring better edge retention (you said about edge retention around 1m mark)
Please pardon my English, I'm not a native speaker.
knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/
Harder with stable microstructure means better support for thinner geometry, I demonstrated that the 52100 could be thin and hard with the right microstructure and still stable on the blackwood. The Carbides are one of the most significant factors to edge aggression and wear resistance. While the steel is harder at 66rc it won't be more wear resistant than s90v at 60rc despite the higher hardness of 52100. Why? Well there is some good reading in the link I sent.
@@FearNoSteel yeah I've read that blog. Can't say I understand everything, but still.
I'm not really interested in direct comparison between 52100 and other steels. But I wondered why you pushed 52100 to such hardness. In my understanding the only reason to cook steel such hard is to get better edge retention (compared to the same steel at softer hardness)
Let me rephrase my question. Imagine you heat treated two pieces of steel, one at 66hrc, other at let say 62. How much of a difference there will be in normal use?
I had a nice collection of high end kitchen knives from modern knife makers. There were 2 knives one at 65hrc. To be honest I haven't noticed much difference between then and knives at 61-62hrc.
@@antonkudris read the first part of the answer I gave you above again, because if you go thinner and the structure is not stronger it will roll over in normal use while cutting without having the support of thicker geometry. So if thinner geometry cuts better but needs more support it needs to be stronger. The Carbides control wear resistance and they don't really change with HT like they do with the steel chemistry. It's pretty straight forward.
Do you havd a Rockwell tester? Just wondering where you got your numbers from.......
Must be aliens
Never mind found the vid with the tester hahaha👍...
🔥👊
Wow!
I’ve always said it, people don’t give this “spring” steels enough “knife” cred. There’s a reason Collins uses it on their high end axes. Toughness makes any impact tool better, full stop.
I wish we saw more “hard use” knives use it so they could maintain better cutting geometry while still remaining hard use. Especially considering how cheap the stuff is.
It would still need to be thicker geometry to support the steel so it doesn't roll in use. Also it would wear smooth easy in cutting tasks comparatively and be more stubborn to deburr and apex if heat treated for maximum impact toughness. There is no fairly tale steel, they all have trade-offs just like everything in the real world, nothing wrong with getting something that suits your preferences my man. It's fun to have something rough and tough though.
Big Brown Bear oh, don’t get me wrong, I understand that, everything is a ballencing act it steels.
I’m talking using this steel over other really simple steels in things like machetes or “survival” knives. I can’t imagine it would be too much more expensive. And if it makes them more abuse resistance at a similar given hardness or the same toughness at higher hardness or allows for a thinner edge I’m not sure what the real down shot really is.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
@@macmurfy2jka I don't understand, you mean 52100 at 66rc for a machete/survival knife? I don't think that would be cost effective to heat treat and grind for production margins.
Big Brown Bear nah that would be silly. I’m assuming you took this up to a really high hardness and then tempered the stresses for a long time?
No I’m just interested using this steel over something like 1075 or 1095, and bringing the hardness closer to say 60 with somewhat better cutting geometry, then letting the steel’s mechanical properties provide a margin of safety for use.
My guess is that doing this would produce better users at a price that still allows them to be semi disposable, like any good user should be.
I mean, to my knowledge, that’s how allot of the “good” tools seem to be made in 3rd world backwaters (using truck springs).
It just seems like an under developed section of the knife market. Mid range knives that make better users.
I might be missing something, as all of this is from a bird’s eye view. Studied materials properties and manufacturing techniques in a few classes in college, but most of my user experience comes in the forms of simpler HighCarbon steels. Never could afford big pieces of M4, O1, etc. I don’t have any personal experience with the steel as so few makers use it and I’ve never ground any of it into a knife personally.
Is it just too hard heat treat? Performance gains not economical/ margins too slim?
I just think that the steel is largely overlooked.
Damnit this might mean 52100, which is my favorite simple steel could rival Rex-45, my favorite complex steel at a similar hardness!!
The Rex was a little harder on my Para 3, rex 45 will also cut longer thanks to the carbide types and more volume.
👍🏻
Jeeze thought I was a steel nerd. Its like the difference between goku super saiyan and goku ultra instinct...
So geeky, love it
And by the way what’s up with you anvil? Pay attention to your anvil while you’re chopping them it seems like it’s morphing metal or something weird
I couldn't figure out how to make my camera float above the ground so it's shaking the tripod when I smash the knife on the anvil
@@FearNoSteel gotcha
Heat treat...process please
...
That's all you
@@FearNoSteel just great...answer I'm looking for
I think the verdict is , It's a knife not a chisel.
I would not let even a fine grained knife go above 63 HRC.
Don't know what you don't know
When you get something that thin that can pass that test without damage let me know I’m sure it can be done i don’t care if it’s below 60 hrc though
If it's soft it just smushes in
@@FearNoSteel can you do something like that in 420hc idk what hardness maybe 57 58 same thickness to see the damage
Give it a try yourself
Can I buy that knife?
It needs a handle and sheath, than I'll put it up for sale
How does somebody get a knife from you
rad
That is why I like civivi and Steel will. They actually make thin TBTE (thickness behind the edge) knives. The steel is not even NEARLY as good as yours, but what can you expect for under a hundred bucks? I like spyderco designs but the TBTE is never as thin as I would like it. When I can, you bet your ASS i am gonna get a knife from you.
Hell yeah
#laserlife
⚛️
I love how you go from scientific and proper to; "... but unfortunately reality is that you need thicker geometry if your gonna chop through fucking nails..."
Like if you have dealt with people before.
Two things thin knives can't cut is time and cost. It rewards skilled users, and holds ppl accountable. Reckless users, who refuse to see not only what they cut, or what's behind what they cut wont enjoy the experience very long. Ceramic tile, concerete walls, various metals etc are going to be the enemy. I carry production knives as convenience. I cut frequently over a tile floor so mishaps aren't noticeable given my skill set. When I'm cutting drywall I'm using a utility knife. Just makes common sense to use replaceable blades when I'm cutting stuff like that. And since I own a lazer of yours, I prefer it in the kitchen over a cutting board. Cut about 10 apples a week with it. BD1N is never going to be a hot Rod steel but as a user I'm controlling the environment so edge damage is avoided. This vids about 52100 tho. Custom heat treated 52100 to be accurate. Just a solid, high enjoyable steel that gets overlooked.
not to cut nails...