S650 DARK HORSE Mustang ON THE DYNO!!!! | Six-Speed Manual Dyno Results!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2023
- The S650 Mustang GT is a HOT topic with the Ford enthusiast community wondering what this new version is all about! We were lucky enough to dyno a stock Dark Horse, the most powerful S650 currently available, for our friends at @tripleseven.! This Vapor Blue Darkhorse is equipped with a Tremec Six-Speed manual and well over the break in period with over 1000 miles! We've seen lots of Dark Horse dyno numbers with the 10-speed auto, but nothing from a stick shift car. This car is rated at 500 horsepower...will the dyno number match?
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You can see the disappointment on his face 😂 when it kept losing power lol.
A dhhhuuud😅
Why would he care he didn’t make the car
Lol
@@invalidusername_5101 Not saying he did or did not care, but his business is tuning cars. I'd say it's pretty important to him that the community sees this vehicle as a viable performance option.
423 at rear on dyno on stock DH engine is pretty damn good. Add a few goodies to make more.
The more people hate on the S650, the longer my S550 will hold its value.
They gone hold value regardless
And the better price I will get on mine in August 2024.
Man I appreciate this information.
S650 just isn't as awesome as s550.
It's very hard to go crazy over this Mustang for the power and money they are asking for them. I have owned multiple Mustang, and for the money, I would get a C8.
C8s cost more. After mark ups you gonna be paying close to $100k for a new one unless you talking about a used one.
@thefitnesslife4988 where do you buy your cars from? I have also seen $104,000-106,000 on the Mustang. By the way, I'm in the car buying business, so if you are paying $100k for a C8 2LT you are over paying.
@@thefitnesslife4988Exactly
Yea man C8 is like a super car..does 2.7 0-60 on street people putting down 10s on street...dig monster...looks insane and.....tunable
@@krisp3874you are definitely not seeing s650 dark horses are 100k. 🤣😂 I’ve seen 4 in texas at 60-63k. Ya know since ford forced dealers to cut mark up from the 9.2 billion dollar “loan” the just took from daddy government
Good power wise still crazy to spend 70k plus for a dressed up gt 😭
It’s not a dressed up GT ffs it it out-brakes every production mtortrend tested. Its 86-foot 60-0-mph stop edges out the 2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS and 2016 Dodge Viper ACR by 1 foot. 0-60 was 3.7 quicker than a Mach-1 at vir which was quickest car under $65,000 at that track… some of us can drive quick in something besides a straight line.
@@CoyoteFTWnow imagine if instead of a techy interior and a debatable refresh on the exterior, they tried to cut weight and increase steering feedback how little we'd mind the current power numbers
@CoyoteFTW a c8 will do 2.7 0-60 ON the street...ive seen no one getting 3.xx in these
@@ShawnGilbert1967C8 is pretty lame. Only the Z06 looks cool
Memories of the '99 Cobra coming back...
This shows the difference between atmospheric conditions, cars and dynos.
The RevanEvan channel got 438 in stock form with 93 octane and doing the pull in fourth gear.
With the carbon trap removed and filters it made 455, with a fourth gear pull. Torque also jumped up on the last pull to 383 ft pounds.
The car they tested only had 26 miles on it.
I’ll keep my 04 terminator 🤘🏻can’t mess with perfection
yessssss
same!!!
My '19 Bullitt dyno'd 421/378 at 80*, 68% humidity, back in December in Texas at 28k miles.
Theres multiple videos on youtube of stock dark horses making 440whp lmao. People don't know how to dyno them properly, different dynos read differently, some gas stations sell watered down 93, thats actually lower, the carbon traps have to be removed a certain way, or it will mess up the maf sensor readings, etc.
That sucks lol
Should have just got a base GT and save mad cash 😆
Ford definitely has the balls squeezed on these new s650’s.
How much you think is left in this engine if a tune is possible?
@@scringe1probably 20 more.
@@mattcat2218before bolt I’d imagine
It's not worth 75,000.... vette money will get me a vette next.
You won't get a Vette for $ 75,000. Buy a Mach 1 and tweak a few things beat the GT 350 and still have 15k left
@@forcedinduction5245 vette...
@@forcedinduction5245lol what? Msrp on a new vette is less than 75k 😂😂😂
@@Ezvyyea,msrp is 69,000 ,you can buy all day long at 72k
all i know is these dyno videos are all over the place with the numbers
Typical ford quality assurance department. Can only imagine what that gtd will be like
There are so many variables to dynos. Take all the numbers high and low with a grain of salt. What they run in the quarter mile is the true test.
Lol imagine paying 300k and it puts down 600 whp or something
He’s right. The car is not a dud. Whoever buys it, is the dud.
😂😂
Ha! ❤
Olololololol
It's no stud that's for sure. 550 for the win.
Yeah, lets see if you're saying that five years from now, when you won't be able to get a used beat one, much less any new high performance ICE powered car for twice the price. And that's exactly what's going to happen If we don't get these actual fascist that are in power now out of our government.
I've been seeing a lot of people drag racing them and not really being impressed.. The s550s are running right with them
Ford is trying to squeeze as much money out of people as possible and it's pretty clear and it's ridiculous just supercharge a regular gt and you have a 900hp capable motor from the factory
Hell yeah im happy that my bone stock 2018 mustang gt 6spd car. No autos around here haha made 419whp and 401tq. That was my 3rd dyno pull kept going up in power. So happy with it. Darkhorse looks badass but isnt worth the money.
They are already slower at the track than the gen 3’s. No way I’d waste the money on an S650
What did the stock gen 3 cars run?
@@sstevocamaro I am still waiting for his reply as well.
@@sstevocamarostangmodes s650 was slower on the track than his s550
@@sstevocamaro steeda’s R&D car ran 12.1 right down here in south ga at our local track. It was a base model car with the 3.15 gears. The PP cars with the 3.55’s we’re going 11.9-12.0 bone stock. I mean bone stock as in zero changes. Stock tires, stock weight, and pump gas. Stangmode ram 12.3 in his brand new mustang and it had drag radials on. I haven’t seen a single bone stock 24 mustang run at the track because every shop out there knows they are slower. Every single video I see, the 24 has a drag pack, weight taken out, or they are running an ethanol blend to lean it out and make more power. So if you want to pay way more money for a slower car, by all means, go for it.
I agree about the screens. Looks like an afterthought. Even the 2018 screen was rectangular. But…..integrated.
You can get an LED Screen for the S550s, right?
@@robg2732 yep.
Im happy with my fbo 2016 gt tuned by you guys . Im probably only short 15 20 hp and its paid off 70k for this nah
And probably faster
I just bought one I love my dark horse it rips
How is this only making 420 when a stock c6z with only 5 more crank hp puts down 440-460 regularly
I wanna see the true Dual intake plenum too.
Also wanna see if there can be a dual intake setup on a Supercharger for the gen 4.
2019+ Shelby gt350 is a much better buy over a dark horse.
Absolutely agree 👍 love my '19 350R
Or a Zl1 1le, SS 1le, c7 z06, gt350r, hell, even a GR Supra...
Predator block ftw
Yep. I have a ‘19 GT350; for almost three years now. I definitely will not trade for this or any other S650. I still enjoy the look, feel, design and performance… oh, and the sound.
I agree with your opinions, the biggest problem with these new vehicles is all this new stuff and the super inflation from when covid hit becuase they are money hungry, but they have not figured out that nobody's pay is going up and people are use to owning these vehicles and they are getting priced completely out ot even the middle class let alone the poverty class. There loss
Seems correct. You got the wrench after you removed the carbon inserts. That threw off the air sensor. Happened to me when I installed a pmas on my 550. After tuning it I’m sure you’ll get 430ish? Headers, cams you’ll be well over or close to 520. I’m just not sure how tunable that intake deal is.
Thank Ken and make it happen 😊
You may need to keep the laminar flow plastic piece in the air intake tubes so the mass airflow sensor doesn’t get confused ??
Lol at a 15% drivetrain loss estimate on a 2023 manual trans vehicle. I guess the gen 3's must have been 485 at the crank using 15% drivetrain loss.
$75k plus most likely a dealer markup makes these a hard pass😭
Easy pass when you can get a low milage C6 ZO6 for less and is faster. You can even get a C7 ZO6 for less.
@@fredeb67 with the Mustang platform a low mileage 19-20 GT350 is an easy buy🤷🏽♂️
@@fredeb67nobody cares... Only name the price of brand new cars
@@fredeb67how much is a new z06? Or new C8?
@@TheBb6prelude If, and that's a big if you can get one at MSRP, OVER $120K. Dealer mark ups have been as high as $80K over sticker.
Im not sure what exactly people are expecting from a car that makes the same torque numbers and is 100lbs heavier than a s550. And we really wont know much until the gen4 is unlocked and tunable.
Even then, will it even be worth it over either a gen2 or gen3 coyote? It would just be as disappointing if we wait that long for a tunable solution, only to post similar numbers to those motors with FI lol
It is actually about the same weight as the S550. Your information is inaccurate.
Awesome video, awesome content, just way to many haters out there, is there things about the S650 i don't like sure, it's the same about previous ones as well, 423 at the wheels
for a bone stock n/a car is awesome, it's only going to get better after mods, keep up the awesome work guys.
I’m not hating on it but 3rd gen coyotes made 420 hp stock also. The fact the new gen is putting out similar numbers as the last gen leaves much to desire and when you factor in the price, and added weight as well as lack of tuning, I think that’s where people are starting to stray away from it.
Bro you can blow your money where you want but at the end of the day performance is where it's at.
I'm not gonna go broke on a overpriced car that I could buy a older 550,supercharge it and make power without the extra money loss in over paying.
😂😂😂😂
What mods? It's not moddable and perhaps won't ever be...
That car having 500 crank and then making 423 wheel, which is what a Gen 3 manual makes it a HUGE let down. Then, figure in the price of the vehicle on top of that, and the car can't be tuned. Car is a ripoff!! You can buy a ZL1 1LE Camaro that makes better numbers and out performs that car and the ZL1 is tunable NOW.
I don’t feel the need to defend Ford just because I have one. If someone screws up well then they screwed up and there’s consequences to that which will be evident by end of the year. If somehow this design appeals to a younger generation then so be it.
They were definitely marketing toward people in their 20's.. Not many ppl in their 20's can afford this 75k car.. plus markups..
Been driving my RS 5.0 Foxbody for 41 years since new... I'll pass on this one too.
Loving my s550 mach1 for 58k even more now ❤
And me, my ‘19 GT350 I picked up in ‘20 for $58k with 6k miles on it. I’m not trading for a S650, at least not with what’s offered today.
Good video!! And great explanation of haters. 😂 at the end of the day the comments help the algorithm 😂
You see the disappointment on Ken's face
Honestly you would be insane to buy this car over a newer GT350 for the money...
Why so I can get a new engine 😂
I couldn’t agree more… !!!!
@@cormaro13 There are GT350’s running around with twin turbos on the stock engine and pushing 800whp all day long. There was an issue with the early 350’s but I have seen any of them have issues recently
@digiam42 are u talking about someone that can drive it or just throw stuff at it and thinks it fast 🤣
@cormaro1376 you couldn't afford a 1987 Civic anyway
Put that dual intake on a Gen 3 using a pigtail for MAF and tune it be curious to see...
I want to see a dual plenum set up! With maybe ITB’s or trumpets 👀
I’ll hold onto my gt350 and 04 cobra, easy choice.
You were spot on about the screens. I can’t stand them😫
Totally agree! I know it’s what’s popping up on new cars nowadays, but I don’t like them in sports cars.
I like it my orderd setup 373 rear end performance package with the blackout package and the base setup on inside interior manual transmission it's right at 50000 got one on order now
They will jack it up when it comes in
I love the dash screens in the s650, looks awesome in my opinion. Would be better if they had a smaller bezel like the new bmw's, but i'm still happy with it over the microscopic dash the s550 had. Also the 23' s550's were almost the exact same msrp as the s650, option for option. The discounts ford offered before covid do not count. Before I ordered my car, brand new 23' s550 GT's, fully loaded, were over 50k, everywhere.
I’d rather have a 2019- 2020 350 or a Mach 1. Not crazy about the front end, rear is dope
Did you put the air straighteners back in?
Man I agree... It's a V8 manual, RWD Ice car... Tell you what go get in your electric battle ship bathtub then. For me.. I am happy the Mustang lives on.
Triple Seven making the rounds. Just finished dudeinblue test driving this DarkHorse
Sponsored by Ford. Ford is indirectly provided these cars to YTbers. Strings attached of course.
@@ClickbaitMotorsports You know it.
@@bullittboost6046 I mean it's obvious. This happens in almost every industry. Ford is discounting, loaning or just providing these S650s for YT content, as long as these YTbers agree to say only positive things about it. You can tell by numbers and reviews who is in Ford's pockets and who is not. I'll support those that don't sell out.
Yea like man ir opened up after 500 miles and then 1000 miles....
@@ClickbaitMotorsportsI’m almost certain if you made most average dudes drive a darkhorse for a day they would say it’s fun and that they enjoyed it
I totally agree about the pricing (for most of the cars I like right now actually), and things being so expensive right now that you can't even make a bad decision on them. I'm almost grateful though, as I really don't like the overall quality of design for these. I've always been a Mustang guy but I'm really not excited about this new one. Once I saw the pricing of the recent GT500, I wasn't excited about that either, especially after seeing the interior. Even thought I still think the Mach1 is overpriced, it's the most alluring recent Mustang to me. The new one will probably grow on me, but not enough to pay the new pricing.
Looking at the numbers on this new mustang. You think they just put the aluminator crate engine in this car. If they did its low numbers but it's built to take more power from superchargers and stuff for the tuners. If so that's not bad being Ford and other car manufacturers had so many recalls.
is there still a "dyno mode" plug on the driver side strut tower on the 650 like there was on the 550? Maybe they moved it? Maybe theres a new way to enable it other than just unplugging a connector? Probably why you were chasing weird issues.
It's has a lot more encryption as well as multiple modules talking to each other I doubt the abs plug is still there...hell this think can talk to Ford and do OTA...just Google.....Ford says no tuning on 2024 mustang
Talking about the dash and the screen... I saw this one of these at the Ford Nationals in Carlisle... wasn't really impressed by the exterior, but as soon as I looked in at the screen, I told my wife they really messed up with that. It's just so, I wanna say, last minute added on. I mean, this is a fail in my book.
GT500 engine in an Explorer??? I would LOVE to see that!! That would be the ultimate Ford family SUV!!
The only reason people are calling it a dud is because the performance does not justify the price. Not only does the car weigh more but it only makes 20 horsepower over the previous generation to the wheels. Save your money and buy an s550 or a Mach 1. Dealerships are charging 10k over msrp on a 70k car. At that point you could buy a c8 corvette Shelby gt500 or gt350, or even a hellcat. Or supercharge a s550. Heck even a tuned s550 stock would smoke This car.
Wow you said you don’t like all the negativity and yet that is exactly what you did!!!! Wow!!!
I saw that
Ken if you can have your staff or friend to video one Darkhorse at the track like Bradenton or Orlando speed world , then the hater’s will have something to talk about.👏💪😎👍
My 20 GT is the one have!
Let's get it
I’l just keep loving my slow but awesome sounding and fun to drive 3V and put a coyote or Godzilla swap down the road if I want something different in terms of power. Love the newer models but I just can’t crap out the money for new or some of these used cars for what the car market has become.
@Ken individual plenums would not work on a cross plane crank engine. They work on flat plane crank engines due to the equal firing pulses. You need the cross cross bank pulses in the plenum to feed to double bank firing with a cross plane engine.
I would have liked to see timing and fuel correction before and after the CT removal, I feel that the gains being realized are simply corrections being made due to the PCM seeing something it does not expect and switching strategies. Flowing these intake assemblies on a bench and reading the curves to calculate actual air mass flow would be the best way to determine and calculate the gain. Running on a dyno with the lids off and the hood open...yeah garbage data. Ford effectively doubled the airflow of the S550 air inlet and the engine grew by what 5CID? Funny how IMSA Mustangs easily make 500+ with the stock GT airbox. Packing smaller molecules in will always burn more fuel. Im also curious if the port fueling strategy has changed. Thats only really there to give more time for mixture motion at high rpm. The drawback of DI, not much time to make a happy flame front at high rpm.
Yeah, I’m sticking with my 03 Cobra lol.
Hard to justify the price tag
Did ford ever give one away for the naming? I submitted the name dark horse but I'm sure a million ppl did
The brand new car felt like a brand new car? Wow
something whistling after you took the carbon traps out. Middleton motorsports got more power by leaving the airbox lids off than removing the traps. They hit 450hp with no traps and no lids, but it was cooler than 92 i think. They also dynoed in 5th and somehow took it to 7200rpms.
Yeah, I was sittin here thinking this car should be making about 450 to the wheels if its 500 crank hp because its usually about a 10% loss!... A 2020 GT makes about the same power stock as this Dark Horse was making here..
@@mattwilliams8140 If they could figure out how to take it to redline it probably would make 440ish, but they screwed something up taking the carbon traps out, that was clear.
@@mooosestangI think he said they forgot to plug the mass air sensor back in which probably threw all the codes.
Goes really good on the track....bs the steering,is numb can't tell what the tires are doing But those were pro racers should be fine for those 2.
Those traps actually straighten the air thru the mass air flow sensors .Maybe that messing up the dyno #.
Im a Mustang guy, I have a gen 1 GT but damn, I used to have a C7 Z06 and it’s a hell of a car and you can get a used low mile one for cheaper than a Dark Horse
Yea but that c7 was low quality , only thing worth from it was the v8 😂
@@cormaro13C7 certainly has its flaws but what makes you thinks it’s “ low quality “ ?
@AB-coyote you're kidding right ? Why don't we start with the brand it's coming from lol nothing but low quality and warranty work from them
@@cormaro13 have you owned one?
@AB-coyote are u asking if I owned a low quality chevy product before ? Then the answer is yes , too many lol
Just cause it's their most expensive sports car doesn't mean quality any better buddy 🤣
Dual plenum would be sweet 👍
Alejandro flores is right its a dhhhuud but hey you asked them and they told ya if they could go back they would have bought a mach 1. And you complained about pretty much everything about this car 😢 that only confirms that its a dhuuuuud PERIOD
I’m not a hater, but the facts are from my perspective is the stuck on ipads, heavier than S550, same/similar power as S550 (my stock 2020 10R80 GT dynod 401rwhp before I Whippled it) just tells me to stick with my beast and not trade it in for the S650. I’m waiting for a more radical revision down the track.
It's very true unless whipple let you put your blower on the s650 it will bolt right on
A drive after a hard reset should have been a no brainer
I agree. My number one dislike is the tablets. Looks cheap and unclean. They should have integrated screens into the double dash design.
If reference CJ pony and American muscle they both did dyno pulls with a 2018 GT with manual transmission and they both put down 420-422hp. Two different cars two different dynos. 2018 crank hp is 460 im not sure about the dark horse being impressive.
Don't think it's so much people being haters😂. The s650 is heavier and putting down the same numbers as s550's even though the s650 is rated at 20-26 crank hp higher. That along with the crazy cost and the fact nobody knows when they'll be tunable....yeah I'd say it's a disappointment so far lol. Especially the Dark Horse
Have you driven the new 24 gt ? On paper doesn’t mean anything. I drove the 24 gt today and that rides way better then a 23. Also ,it does pull faster then the GT. Feels better ,infotainment system is better ,exhaust is better ,sounds better and overall just a better Mustang.
@Jaruzelsk lol so far the track is saying that the dyno's aren't lying. Glad your butt dyno says different though. I'll wait until these things can actually be tuned to change my opinion. Regardless of what your butt dyno says, we are seeing what they can do stock
@@allthevibes46 Lol even if it does change you’re cheap ass won’t pay for the new product. Like I said ,you haven’t DRIVEN the NEW GT ,all you’re doing is watching videos and believing whatever lol.
Whattttt the noises that thing makes
“Felt like a brand new car” 😂
Dual plenum billet intake? ... yes please
duel plenum thumbs up
Why would it make more HP in 5th gear as opposed to 4th gear?
It’s not making more horsepower. You just hit peak rpms without bouncing off the limiter.
I bought a brand new 2012 mustang GT in 2012 and dynoed it with only 350 miles on it. My friend who dynoed his car before mine, also bought a 2012 mustang GT with the exact same options as mine. Same rear gears, same trans, same everything. Except mine dynoed 423 rwhp and 403 tq. This was done by a reputable performance shop and by reputable tuner. Some say there's no such thing as a factory freak but, the fact my friends car with exact same packaging as mine dynoed right before mine and didn't even come close to the numbers my car made proves there must be. Also, my car backed up those numbers repeatedly on different pulls as well as taking it to different dynos.
You still have the dyno sheet from 11 years ago?
@@RW-zh7kl I sure do
I’m buying a GT and a 3.8 Whipple .
Should make some power.
Where EXACTLY does it say a break-in mileage for this engine? Nothing in the owner's manual....
1:35 S550 doesn't try to kill you...the Fox chassis is the champ there.
Bad drivers will kill themselves in a Smart car
Well imma keep my 99 gt and my 2013 5.0 mustang darkhorse aint pushing out like that
Well, not overly excited. First of all, I commend Ford for continuing to offer a v8 sports car, with a manual. Kinda disappointing that Ford hasn’t made significant changes to the performance. Design wise… not thrilled with the front, the rear is nice. Interior… sorry, I don’t like the big screens.. I know it’s what newer cars are coming with now, but not a fan of them on sports cars, especially big iPad looking things. I have a ‘19 GT350 that I’ve owned for almost 3 years now… engine is bone stock. I still enjoy the design/look, feel, sound and performance. I don’t see myself trading for a S650… especially for the price. Like others have said, for $75k territory, it makes sense to explore a nice C8.
15% drivetrain loss through a manual you say?
This is so disappointing for the money increase. It was one thing when a $35K car made this power but now a $70K+ is making the same.
Do the gt500 swap explorer 😮
So it makes the same power as all the other 6th gen ss Camaros cool.
HP maybe, how about TQ... same as Gen V LT1?
"Felt like a brand new car" 😐 Bruh it is a new car.
💥💪💯
Great video awesome car love the new mustang Ford power forever baby keep on pulling the knot out of them boties and the horns off them mopars l love it
The tunes and upgrades gone be crazy about next year but it's a little disappointing. Got to be in the 500s tourqe range. Last year dash looked better.
Ill keep my 2017 GT good ole 6r80😂
You know i was in high school when the first LS1 Camaros came out and 4.6L mustangs with there 280hp were all over the place and it took thousands of dollars to get a car to make 400 hp to the ground and now they are coming stock with over that and people wanna complain?.. they just dont realize how badass cars are these days. Plus all everyone does is complain anyway. Now the price tag is absolutely ridiculous but that is going to change soon too.. these dealerships have screwed themselves and this isnt covid anymore and people arent going to pay these absurd prices and banks arent rly giving loans out on these over priced cars
It sounds good, but for the money I would buy a base GT and supercharge it and leave this in the dust
Well the hp is almost right at the factory rating, but torque is higher soo that def helps. But overall underwhelming for a really expensive Mustang.
Dark FARCE!!!
We dRifT thE cAR
What kind of fuel do you use in your dyno testing?
Buy a low buck gen 1 do simple mods and you will have the same results. You guys know this.
mind you not they dyno a bone stock 19 gt350 it made 463whp yall better off buying a 2020 gt350
So I can have the engine replace several times nah I'm good 😂
@@cormaro13that’s a myth from people who don’t do maintenance and don’t check their oil and go beat the car up on the track going to redline with no warming up and no oil catch can so it sucks in blow by like crazy and then blame ford. I saw a post where a guy brought his car in for noises and they found no oil on the dipstick.
That’s a bad owner not a bad car. I own a 350 and it’s as reliable as my GT was.
@cmdrdredd I guess we seen different videos cause early ones were trash lol I'm sure maintenance has to deal with it but then just comes poor quality
@@cormaro13nope the predator block on the Voodoo revision is the shit...2019 up
@@cormaro13nonsense. I’ve had my 350 for three years. I drive it like it should be. No problems.. drinks an extra qt. of oil every 5k miles. The 2nd gen voodoo’s are solid!
I think the only hate is because 90k for a n/a car cost more than the 2020 GT500.. or you could buy a 2024 GT 49k, twin turbo kit built transmission plasma man intake, and still have change left over. But no tune. So the GT500 starting to sound like a better deal
Lol where are ya'll getting $90k from? I just seen a darkhorse for sale today for $63k
@@thefitnesslife4988$63grand for an overpriced 300a package Mustang? LoL
@@thefitnesslife4988 you will not buy one for $63 right now unless you find a unicorn dealer
@@thefitnesslife4988 markup. Dealers are marking them up by 10,15,20 grand
63 plus an average mark up of 20k plus taxes
so the lightly modified S550 GT with a JLT CAI and GT350 throttle ist still better than a Dark horse - more Power and more Torque from 0-5000rpm, and from 5000rpm like DH.....
And most importantly faster and tunable