Steel is super effective against fairy because in European cultures especially the main way of dealing with the supernatural is with iron, because it symbolises industrialism and the disconnect that forms from nature as humanity progresses technologically. This can be seen best in how werewolves are weak to silver bullets. Great video and I appreciate lots of the changes you suggested. I personally always wondered why fighting wasn’t either super effective or resistant to itself and seeing you change that made me finally able to be at peace
@@chisei8282 Silver is still a metal, same as Iron. Logic still applies, Steel is kind of a misnomer for the type, the TCG really had it right, Metal is a more appropriate title.
Silver bullets come from a story of a man who melted down an inherited silver icon of the Virgin Mary to make bullets to kill an unkillable dog-monster that was thought to be sent by Satan. It wasn't the metal, not even the silver, it was that the bullets were made of a holy icon that made them effective. Over time, all that mattered became the silver itself as the original story became forgotten and replaced. It's completely disconnected from the fairy and iron thing, which is a pre-Christian idea.
Is this bait? Nicotine is a pesticide, but humans can inhale it for decades. Your house can get fumigated monthly and you wouldn't even notice. The effectiveness of poison basically depends on how small your body is, and they work very easily on bugs because they're so tiny.
@@_WhiteMage considering that cockroaches alone can resist and even survive toxic nuclear wastes while we develop cancers I say yeah that makes sense.
I actually love the lack of perfect loops in the type chart. I think the asymmetry of Pokémon is great and truly valuable to the health of the game. Having imperfect loops makes them each feel different as types rather than a reskin of the fire water grass. Cool video!
Instead of making Fire and Ice neutral towards each other, I think I would make them super effective against each other. That's a unique interaction that we don't have yet. Bug and Fighting resist each other but no two types are super effective towards each other. And to buff Ice a little, I would make Ice be immune to itself since that is also something that no other type does. I love that Bug is immune to Psychic, it makes sense. And removing Steel's resistance and Dark's immunity are also great ideas to make Psychic just a bit better
it makes no sense to eliminate dark's immunity to psychic. Fear inhibit's the mind and dark is the strongest form of fear hence the immunity. bug should resist psychic but not be immune to it because an insect's mind is far smaller compared to a human mind plus insects are a common form of fear albeit a weak form.
Fun fact: In the beta version of Gen II (which was available as a demo in Japan at certain events) Normal and Dark were super effective against each other (for some reason) Also, fire and ice being strong against each other only really works if there is no water type I’ve only ever seen that in games where water and ice are the same element
@@shadowprince4620 its a color model using cyan, magenta, yellow and black! It is the additive counterpart to RGB’s subtractive type of color model. CMYK is mostly used in color printing.
@maybeaferret7877 why is black represented by K? I gathered the others from the original comment but I couldn't think of any colors starting with K. Is it just to differentiate it from Blue?
@@curt367 I Looked it up and apparently it is meant to represent key or keyplate! A printing term that meant the plate that held the most detail, most often being black!
5:30 One interesting thing is that with this loop, you can actually have a loop within a loop. Rock, Fire, and Steel create a loop with each other, but also all 3 are simultaneously strong against Ice and weak against Ground. This could potentially be used for some neat gameplay tricks, such as a first gym that's ground type, and encouraging the player to search a snowy forrest or mountain for counters to said ground types!
2:36 See, there's a reason why Pokémon doesn't need any new types, even outside of a game design/balance perspective. Every one of these concepts (aside from maybe ooze) is already represented by a currently existing type Magic: Fairy, and sometimes Psychic Acid: Poison Void: Dark Crystal: Rock Divine: Fairy again The vast majority of things that could be made into types are either already represented by a type or are already an existing archetype of move like sound
Me and a friend were talking about making Normal super-effective against Fairy. From a mechanics side, normal deserves a super effective offense and fairy could stand to have a third weakness. From flavor side, the way we see it, normal is like "the real world" which starkly denies fairy tales. Making a Normal pokemon essentially a rebuttal to the existence of Fairies
@mandu9979 the argument could be made, but if we are going off of a flavor thing, it would make more sense for steel types to be super effective against dragons as well, because like, knights in shining armor, whereas normal types I'd say are fine as neutral both ways since the average person could potentially be a threat to a dragon given the right circumstances.
As someone who exclusively cares about fixing the typechart for competitive pokemon purposes, and is wholly indifferent to the typechart's effect on mainline games-many of these changes have drastic domino effects that would be disastrous for competitive pokemon. By "disastrous" of course what I mean is that your changes would cause the pool of viable pokemon who even "exist" in the first place (i.e.: have any reason to treat like they even exist at all) to shrink to a fraction of what it is now. Alot of this comes from the fact that buffing a type's offensive capacity doesn't really buff that pokemon as much as it does buff the most defensively-sound pokemon that know moves of that type. Making fairy type weak to bug type doesn't make bug type pokemon much stronger-but DOES make fairy type pokemon afraid of every non-bug type pokemon out there that learns U-Turn. Buffing a type's defensive capacity goes alot further to actually make types stronger. Here are some examples of some of the negative effects your proposed changes might create: For example, fire types being weak to stealth rock by itself means that fire type pokemon are among the worst of the worst from the get-go-and have a ton of trouble just existing. Most of the time their fairy resistance is the only thing giving them a competitive use-case that even lets whatever other advantages a given fire type might have be explored in the first place-and even then if a fire type pokemon isn't the single best fire type available its not worth the stealth rock weakness to even consider. Worsening fire defenses even further by removing the very valuable fairy resistance-without an even more significant buff to compensate-is akin to deleting all fire type pokemon from the game. Ground type pokemon are most-of-the-time absolutely terrible, having only three resistances and weaknesses to quite possibly all three of the most common attacking types in the game. Other than ground types like Landorus, Great Tusk, or Excadrill that are paired with such strong secondary typings and are given such strong utility to justify the risk being ground type comes with-ground types never even see the light of day. The one thing giving it a use-case despite being an atrocious typing overall is its offensive capacity. I see you modestly improved their defense ability, but since they were already at a deficit it is nerfing an already struggling type. There were a handful of other such changes, but mostly along these lines. As someone who theorycrafts type chart changes ALOT, one thing i've learned is that adding or removing weaknesses is a very volatile means of rebalancing types with the most dramatic domino effect. Its generally better to rebalance by simply adding or removing resistances. And even then, removing resistances can be volatile. A good tool is to keep track of every possible combination of the 18 types and see if your changes have increased or decreased the number of those combinations with 5 or more weaknesses and/or double weaknesses. If you have, its probably time to go back to the drawing board a bit. But then again, our goals are vastly different from one another so there's also that-but I can't help but wonder if there might be some venn diagram overlap between our two goals.
This is a super interesting post from the perspective of someone who no longer plays Pokémon, but watches a lot of VGC competitive format, where entry hazards are non-existent in the meta, so fire types are fairly common.
this looks like bait ngl. it's not like having a bad type invalidates a pokemon from being good, looking at you tyranitar, and saying ground types are terrible? have you considered that the reason ground is weak to common, powerful types is that a large part of why those types are common and powerful is because they're good against ground types? getting free switches against electric moves is invaluable, especially when it comes to volt switch, and don't brush off stab. yeah fire types hate stealth rocks but acting like volcarona will suddenly be PU if it doesn't check magearna for the month before it gets banned is hyperbolic.
@@ILiekFishes I was never trying to say that a bad type automatically invalidated a pokemon regardless of other factors, and trying to imply such sounds like you're either deliberately oversimplifying my argument in bad faith or blatantly misunderstood everything I was saying. My point is that a bad typing raises the bar of what that pokemon's other attributes (ability, movepool, etc) need to compensate for so goofy high that the deck is stacked heavily against 95% of pokemon of a given type. Ground type's electric immunity helps stuff like Landorus and Great Tusk, sure, but trying to imply that the type is perfectly balanced because of the immunity sounds as goofy as trying to say that Mudsdale or Sandslash are OU staples. Adding more offensive super-effective interactions, and removing resistances from types that already struggle defensively, dramatically decreases the number of type combinations that are good enough to not need goofy support to be viable. Instead of 25-40 OU viable pokemon in a given meta, you're shrinking the pool down to only a fraction of that.
Yeah, but the premise of the video was a series reboot. I feel like if the kind of reboot that redoes the entire typechart, would also come with a redo of learnsets. I also feel like entry hazards in general are overdue for a massive overhaul.
Interestingly, you actually removed a perfect loop in grass, ground, poison. I'm not against that change, I'm just pointing it out. I like the idea of some games using less types, since it'll mess with the meta for that specific game without having to make knock on changes. I could see a tropical island region that has a volcano in the middle, leading to a lack of ice types. Or a cavernous region that has few flying and grass types.
1. I can't believe I missed this loop. I should have talked about it. 2. It's *almost* a perfect loop since ground doesn't resist itself like the other two do, however, it is so close to a perfect loop that yeah, I should have mentioned it... So here is what I would have said! "I'm going to mess up this loop in my own edits instead of enforcing it and I don't really mind doing that. The reason being, Grass is already in its own perfect loop and I would like to avoid doubling up as much as possible."
@@RadioactiveMagicGames In a similar vein, Fire/Steel/Rock is also currently a perfect loop aside from Rock not resisting itself. I always imagined some generation with a thematic of Environmentalism vs Industrialism, with one game having a Grass/Ground/Poison trio and the other having a Fire/Steel/Rock trio, then with a third version that had a classic Fire/Grass/Water trio, though the idea of alternative starter towns within a single game as you described here would likely be a better implementation for such a concept.
One element to this I think folks that suggest a starter type trio change up underestimate is player psychology. Simply put, I don't think any of the other trio loops are as player intuitive as fire/grass/water especially for the younger and or newbie side of the player-base. Like sure the Elekid, Smoochum, and Magby trio used in romhacks like FireRed Omega works for the older skewing demographics of that scene but I'm skeptical that setup makes it out of focus testing/play testing for a mainline game with the financial expectations of AAA franchise that has to have a broad appeal.
Yeah, nothing else is intuitive or A-list like plant , water, fire. Then again, I remember learning that grass is super effective to water and thinking it dosent make intuitive sense. Just because plants drink water dosent mean they are good at defrosting water
I like some of these ideas but I think it might focus a bit too much on the big picture. For individual types, you kinda want their matchups to reflect their nature and there was probably opportunities to examine the type concepts in isolation to determine what could help flesh out a type's personality. You made fighting resist itself but what if you made it weak against itself instead to evoke recklessness and competition in fighting types going toe-to-toe? You could also bring out the warrior archetype in them by having them be super effective against dragons. Correct me if I'm wrong but I also didn't spot any attempts to make two types super effective against one another - candidates for that could be ghost and psychic: mortals trying to master the supernatural and the supernatural in turn proving how dangerous that ambition is. Fire and ice are also self explanatory candidates for this, but maybe also steel and electric. Of course you can also make resistances add to a type's personality. Steel is the obvious one but bug also gets a shoutout for resisting fighting and ground, the two types with a reputation for reliably hitting most targets at least neutrally, which gives bug that sense of a pest you can't fight conventionally. I like the broad structuring of these type loops but I think there's some work you can do to have the macro details work in concert with the micro details. What should it feel like to play a particular type? Gen 1 set an arguably ugly precedent of using base stats and moves to answer this question: rocks feel bulky because all the rock types have high defense, bugs feel weak because we made them all weak. As the generations have gone on and pokemon within a type diversified, you don't really feel that same sense of belonging between Golem and, say, Lycanroc. Moves and stats flesh out individuals but I don't think it should carry the weight of a whole type, yknow?
I really don't think any game with only 3 types could really be considered a Pokemon game anymore. Games with only a single triangular perfect loop just end up pushing the strongest stat sticks to the top anyways, which is ideally something elemental weaknesses and resistances should be discouraging. It would also shut out dual types from the game and any access to coverage moves would sort of defeat the purpose of a perfect triangle and make speed and power the unequivocal best. The reduced type numbers and lack of dual types in the TCG could be an interesting starting point. The way they handle weaknesses, resistances and the occasional immunity reminds me of more standard JRPGs where each enemy might have their own unique spread, with general rules for certain classes/species. I'm not sure that's particularly helpful or a direction I want pokemon to go in, but it could be an example of how to scale down various systems in the game, such as going from 4 to 2 moves, to accommodate a smaller chart. That being said, I do like the idea of limited types by game (Especially with spinoffs. Gates to Infinity and Pokemon Conquest had very limited rosters and obvious winners from lack of counters) and even an expanded type-chart to add into the rotation. Also, you highlighted Ground is neutral to Ground at 12:35, meanwhile Ground hitting Rock neutrally is not marked. Good thing you covered every type's changes in full later! The high prevalence of certain type pairings is also worth noting for type changes, such as Poison/Grass being 4x resistant to Fairy and now having dual-STAB coverage for any secondary typing on a Fairy. (Although, in general, getting four extra weaknesses is already pretty damning, especially since you point out Grass is one of the most common types.) Rock/Ground types can cheer for losing one of their 4x weaknesses. I agree with Bugs getting a much needed buff (and Poison too, since their main selling point is Fairy coverage and defending against the status), and curiously I don't think there's any major implications for Poison/Bug types. Flying/Normal stayed exactly the same too XD
Yeah I don't think a just 3 type game would be much good, hence why I didn't focus on it for too long, for the reasons you stated. I would be really interested to see a 9 type spin-off. Plenty for duel types while being a shorter game that still keeps the strategies varied! Great note about how some duel pairings are really common, even this aspect throws balance through another turn around well after you have made the adjustments to the chart.
12:40 This is very interesting. Very interesting choice not to make them all balance to 0. When I did it myself I made them all balance to 0, and only kept interactions that make sense. It was quite a job.
I never got why steel doesn't resist fighting, armor literally exists so that you can take less damage from physical attacks, taking extra damage because you put on armor makes no sense
the equivalent of a simple physical attack would be normal, which steel resists. Fighting is more about martial arts, which have the mystic and legend of making someone so strong to be able to crush metals
I’ve literally always start ghost dragon and fairy was such an interesting type circle. Not only are they just amazing and cool times that often result in some pretty interesting designs but there’s almost a theme of fairytales and whimsical supernatural creatures when you put them all together, and in a way that really fitting for Pokémon but it’s also very different so you could lean into like a folklore aspect. Unseen, fairies, playing tracks, ghost, howling in the wind, and legends of dragons, hidden within the wild of your hometown.
If you want to be technical about it, Water should be immune to electric, because water is actually a perfect insulator. It's the impurities in the water that make it conduct.
@@GaioSamurai There could definitely be a boiling water pokemon with electric resist, I could see that. Or it could based on holy water, maybe it filters another way, idk.
Really liked the changes and would be cool to see this happening in a real pokémon game. The idea of grass being weak against dark doesn't feel right to me. I think the dark type suffers a lot from the way its name has been translated. The dark type is to be intended as the evil and mischevious type and not as the "abscence of light" type ahaha but that's was just your idea and everything else was very good!
While I understand that as the evil type Dark generally focuses on brutal and savage or mischievous or underhanded attacks I'd say that having darkness & Shadow based attacks as a manifestation of evil isn't a bad thing given the human perception of darkness being evil. If ghost can have shadow based attacks why not the evil type? It's no different from multiple different types having light-based attacks.
@@leafdragoon8551 they have in dark pulse and such and that's completely fine maybe they are a mix of both evil and darkness but again dark pulse for example is said to be aura imbued with dark thoughts not specifically darkness sooo
@@RadioactiveMagicGames I don't blame you ahaha! Some dark pokémon such as Darkrai may suggest darkness and gloominess but if you look closely you can see that they all are malicious and mean beings. What about ghost types? They are more evocative in that sense and the move night shade is a clear sign ghosts draw power from pitch black nights and darkness.
At first i thought Dark was super effective against Grass lol. But after learning it was more of an immoral type and not just "no light" im ok with Dark being neutral on Grass. Plus Grass gets a lot of hate with how many weaknesses it has and how little of an offensive presence it is
It has never made sense to me that Steel isn't weak to Electric...the logic behind Water being weak to Electric applies just as well to Steel. Also how the heck do you only have triple digit subscribers? Your content is absolutely fantastic, very thoughtful and incredibly edited. You're a real hidden gem and you've got yourself a new subscriber :)
I see this everywhere, but Steel shouldn't be weak to Electric. Do you know why electric cables are made of metal? It's because electricity passing through it doesn't have any long term damage, while passing electricity through water will pretty much kill anything in it. The big difference is that Steel type Pokémon are almost all just giants hunks of metal, while almost every Water type is a fish, or other aquatic creature. So run an electric current through a metal pipe and one through an aquarium and tell me which lasts longer, because I'll bet you anything that the metal pipe can take it all day long.
@@dillonsomerville4729 Ah! But! In the real world we don't have animals that are made of metal or live in/amongst it. If you want to make a fair comparison then you would compare the conductivity of water without any life in it. How can you know for sure that electricity running through a metal *organism* wouldn't do lots of damage to it? Since we are creatures made of mostly of water and we know that water *can* conduct electricity AND by doing so it does damage, we can extrapolate that a creature made of metal (with even greater conductivity than water) could take even greater damage!
@@RadioactiveMagicGames Plants are also water based life forms. According to your logic, why isn't Grass also weak to Electric? I'd say either make both Steel and Grass weak to Electric, or make neither.
Nice job! I k ow how incredibly difficult it can be to redo the type chart, and how unbelievably opposed to type chart changes the fan base ends up being.
Fighting is called the Hero type in Japanese and so it's why it interacts badly with the pure Fairies. Same thing for the Dark type that is actually called Evil type there.
Fact check: You are correct concerning the Dark Type, but the Fighting type in Japanese is called かくとうタイプ, which translates to "hand-to-hand fighting" type.
@@KeitaroHirochibut the reason it beats evil aka dark is because the fighting type also represents justice so if fairy is supposed to be good magic or something there shouldn't be a clash between them and justice
Some of the changes I felt were unneeded such as Fire not having any relationship with ice. Ice doing neutral damage to Fire (like in G1) is fine, but Fire not hitting it super effectively though? Things such as Electric dealing 1/2× to Rock while becoming strong against Steel, Fighting being resistant to itself are alright enuf though. 1 crucial thing u forgot to mention is traits & benefits a type can have: terrains, weather, Grass' immunity to Leech Seed & powder moves, abilities, movepools (Normal having tons of elemental coverage) & how good moves can be for a certain type (Scald for Water-types, Draco Meteor for Dragon), Ghosts can't be trapped starting with G6, moves that a said type can usually get (Water-types being blessed with Ice moves, Dragons typically get Fire moves), rarity of a type (as u mentioned Grass being quite common), & so much more. There's a lot to consider when balancing the type chart & I think u did a ok job. Hard to say how balanced it's in practice by just looking at it.
I think Dragon might be a bit of a problem now. With Fairy no longer being immune to it and both Fairy and Steel getting much weaker it seems incredibly powerful offensively. At the bare minimum I would make Psychic resist it, as it was already bad and this new type chart just hurts it even more.
I've maintained for a long time that Ice should get a Dragon resist. Helps patch up the "glass cannon" quality of the type and also gives another way to check dragons, who are most frequently high-power mons.
@@DarthMohawk1 i was about to say the same thing. Ice could really use the boost and it would actually give it a niche where it works well also dragon resists all the starter types which is just annoying
@@log3ckert386that’s kind of the point with Dragon though, of the five “elemental types,” Dragon resists the three/four starter types, with Ice, the once lategame elemental type, being the one to beat it. It’s designed as an endgame type, one that you can’t just bulldoze with your starter.
I think some ice type mons should have an ability where if attacked by a fire type move, they become a water type. Fire melts ice but water puts out fire
@@vegeta002 is an ice type pokemon good at manipulating water? If i melted your gun into a pile of hot slag, hot slag is really dangerous, but you certainly can’t use it very effectively against me any more
@Arkouchie Ice is just frozen water, and ice attacks tend to freeze targets, while fire types tend to be very hot. Encase the fire type in ice and that ice will be melted into water. Now you have a fire type doused in water, a devastating position to be in.
@@shubuman Ice coating a fire type has nothing to do with the pokemon using Ice Beam or whatever freezing move is used, so fire's effect on Ice is not relevant and was never the debate. Ice in contact with a fire type is water, therefore fire should be weak to ice. It's literally the same as melting metal into molten slag and throwing it in someone's face.
The Dark type in Pokemon is less actual darkness and more malice or evilness(and there's the common media trope of good guys always winning in the end, hence why Fighting, the type encompassing honor, and Fairy, the type encompassing good magics, both resist it). If you wanna buff it, I'd say make its interaction with Poison better(whether resisting it or being supereffective against it), with the reasoning of villains in media often being associated with illness and poisonings.
12:36 psychic has no effect on bug, interesting. Why is Bug super on fairy? Fairy is a spirit of nature. It should not be harmed by Plants or Bugs. Also why is fairy weak to ghost? It should be the other way around due to fairies being spirits of life and spring. Interesting that Dragon is strong against dark. I can’t imagine a logical reason though.
my biggest beef with the fairy type was always that it was immune to dragon instead of just resisting it. with how common fairy type is, in my opinion, it nerfs dragons too much. dragons were always supposed to be insanely powerful and hard to obtain. that's why the majority of dragon types pre gen 6 were legendaries and pseudo legendaries. i understand that since there ended up being so many across all the generations, they wanted to nerf it, but the solution should have been maybe not letting it resist so many things, and giving it one or two offensive weaknesses while making sure to keep dragons hard to obtain. if someone goes through the effort of catching a dratini and raising it into a dragonite, gosh dang it that dragonite should be able to touch a hecking clefairy. that is all.
I think this type chart is too out of whack. I don't think you considered the offensive interactions of sister types. For exemple, trading Steel's ground weakness for an electric weakness is a huge buff. Not only does it give it a nich as a rare electric resist, but more way more importantly: You just make Steel not weak to EdgeQuake. One of the most common sister types. Ground/Rock, Water/Ice, Electric/Ice/Fire (BoltBeam is the scary variation atm but no matter the changes keep in mind most mons with one of the punches/fangs get all 3 types), Fire/Grass, Dark/Ghost. ^A good type chart must take in mind the associations of types in move sets. EdgeQuake: Ground is reliable but has frequent full immunities, while Rock has low accuracy and SR keeps x4 weak pkm away but it covers Ground's coverage. Water/Ice: Ice is arguably the best offensive type, while water is arguably in the running for top 3 defensive types. Putting Ice on a water type is a cheat code that can't be too free to abuse in either building your mon or piloting it. BoltBeam: Perfect coverage. Don't give it to mons with stab on either unless they are physical attackers. Keep the special attacks trio (with fire) the privilege of normal types. Give the punches and fangs more freely as those moves are worst and make contact. Be more willing to give the full trio from fangs than punches. Fire/Grass; Sun can't be a free. It exists. It functionally boosts 2 type dmg with close to perfect cover in a way nearly comparable to a +2 boost without accounting for abilities. Dark/Ghost: The "I might not murder you but I will cut you" perfect coverage.
Once again, water is still too powerful as a starter type, just slap an ice beam on it and you have only one weakness, and if you are water/ground with swift swim, well lol good luck. Fire is still too weak, all three of its vulnerabilities are common as heck with stealth rocks, earthquake, and way too many strong water types everywhere. Solution: make poison and dragon super effective against water. Poison: oil and sludge contaminating water supplies and killing off most life is very common nowadays, as for dragon, well in japan, dragons are masters of water. Otherwise amazing video, you deserve more views and subscribers.
Dragon being super effective against water is stupid unless we're also going to make dragons super effective against every type (if it exists, there's a dragon in some mythology that controls it)
Fire got fairy as a resist for two reasons: 1. Fairy is already one of the best types in the game. It needs more resists 2. Fire is very weak defensively compared to water and grass. It would benefit from getting a defense boost. Not according to the type chart, but when you factor in the pokemons and moves in the game. Stealth Rock straight up makes some mons unviable, earthquake is extremely common and one of the strongest attack in the game. Being a fire type is often a negative, when Game Freak meant it to be a mostly balanced type like water or grass
Welp now dragon is the most broken type by a landslide since the only two types that switch well into it are now significantly weaker and it now has a new valuable resist in ghost typing. Ice being a little better doesn’t really help that much since ice types don’t resist Draco meteor spam.
3:15 What I got from this video: fairy type is 10 years old. I have yet to play any Pokemon game with fairy type in it. I'm old. Only Kanto exists leave me alone!
There’s like 6 super effective type loops apart from the starter one with the current type chart, some off the top of my head are Grass-Ground-Poison, Water-Ground-Electric, Steel-Ice-Ground, Fighting-Dark-Psychic and Fighting-Ice-Flying
A huge issue with this type chart is that it messes up competitive completely. Its interesting for in-game but a fixed type chart isnt going to fix the numerous other issues releases have had. The most notable part of these changes is that dragon and ghost become even stronger offensively, which if youve played vgc, bss or smogon singles, you would know why thats such a bad ides.
99% of people don't even bother with the competitive side of pokemon so who cares lmao. All competitive pokemon is is smogon fart sniffers and constant swapping of pokemon in and out. Boring af.
@theteutonicorder9158 the main series games suck ass for numerous reasons and the type chart is not one of them. That's probably the least important thing given everything else. Also it just sounds like you don't know how to play and all you do is click the Unga bunga button lol so you wouldn't care about the type chart. And there's a reason I listed the comp modes in that specific order since that's the order game freak cares about them/gives them importance in and vgc specifically is very important to them right now.
@pmwaffle9348 I don't even play Pokémon anymore. X and Y were my last main series game. Just got fed up with all the handholding and lack of content. I've tried a lot of Pokémon style games like nexomon , coromon, and cassette beasts. Next month Extinction was probably my favorite one of those despite the flaws I enjoyed it a lot more than Pokémon.
@theteutonicorder9158 comp (vgc) is quite literally the only thing thriving right now. BSS is only really popular in Japan and smogon singles have been a mess this gen thanks to powercreep and that isn't even the worst. Casual fans are given absolute slop and for some reason keep eating it up. I'm glad we're in agreement about that at least because it's really sad how poorly the switch games are made compared to earlier titles and the sheer revenue they produce.
FYI, the real type chart that we have has more type triangles than just Fire/Water/Grass and Rock/Fighting/Flying. We also have Fire/Rock/Steel and Grass/Poison/Ground.
Thought the video was really interesting but something that got ignored is the whole secondary immunities that types have. Such as Grass types being immune to spore and dark types being immune to moves done with the prankster ability
A type related move I made is Yin and Yang, a normal special move with 80 base power. It affects everyone on the field, and reverses their affinities. (So, Fairy would be weak to dragon and Grass would resist bug)
Here's a different proposal for the Steel Type: I like the idea of it being an all or nothing type in defense. Weaknesses to Water, Electric, Fire, Fighting and Ground, but resists all other types and is immune to poison. That way, there's careful thought into type coverage and in dual types.
@@goldfishsandwich9737 In that scenario, I'd give Water a weakness to Poison, and Rock a resistance to Electric. Poison is based around pollution and toxins, which spread significantly easier through water than ground or air. And If Ground is immune to Electric because it grounds the electricity, I don't get why Rock shouldn't at least resist it for the same reasons, plus it gives Rock, Steel, and Ground all different interactions in extremes with Electric.
I really like the Fairy's resistance to Ground, in reference to Faerie Forts and Fey Traps. This helps me think about how to manage my own typing system. Think I got it figured out now actually. With Sound/Ohm, God, and Nothing being the big debalancers, it should be perfectly balanced within the wheel, and perfectly imbalanced as a whole system. (God & Nothing are always monotype. God makes Sound, Sound fills the Nothing, Nothing beats God)
a lot of the relationships in this video is actually well described by a branch of math called group theory. you could pull from group theory concepts like quotients and subgroups to efficiently create loops and subsets and starter sets with certain properties
You truly thought this out, and you covered all of your bases, and some ideas and concepts that I’ve always found really interesting. And though you have strong critiques of what you discuss, it clearly comes from a place of love and admiration in this video it’s just brimming with so much genuine creativity, and inspiration
4:25 Another problem with having Flying/Rock/Fighting starters is that Rock resists Normal moves, and at level 5 most starters only have a normal move available, such as Tackle or Pound
I was following the idea until I saw that Steel had stopped being super-effective against Faerie (what I like most about the interaction between these two types is precisely the reference to the lore of cold iron being used to deter and harm faeries and other supernatural beings in folklore).
Grass Poison Ground is still my favourite loop in pokemon It's not the most intuitive, but poison and ground do feel like they fit the starter vibe better than fire.
17:15 well...I'll use a very, very precise example here, but I think that they're neutral because of the Faraday's law induction. To make it extremely short, inside a close iron cage for example, the electricity will pass through the cage, but not inside, what I mean by that is that, on a steel pokemon, the electricity will pass through his body (hence why it's not immune to electric), however, the electricty will not affect the "insides" of the pokemon
Really liked grass having advantage over Fairy! tho complete advantage seems a bit much imo. I think Grass resisting Fairy is enough. I also completely agree with some other changes, like Ice resisting water or steel being weak to electric. On the topic of electric, one idea that I like and have never seen mentioned is electric being super-effective against bug. Much like how poison could represent pesticides, electric could represent bug zapper lights and other such devices.
Really good. I like it, one small change. I'd add to bug super effective damage against everything except itself and a resistance to everything I just figure it deserves it after all this time
This misses most of the themes and conceptual reasons behind type matchups, fails to create interesting spots with full immunities or double-effective matchups, and nobody who says "scissors paper rock" in that order can be trusted.
I think there are good reasons for the starters always being these three types though, not so much for gameplay reasons but for what it feels like, especially to new players. They are arguably the types that feel the least mundane and the most like that little critter you adopted is actually magical. Most of the other types actually feel fairly mundane in what they represent (even things like electricity), with the exception of ghost, psychic, dragon, dark and fairy but those last ones are also a lot less obvious in what they represent. I think for this reason, letting the player adopt a tiny creature that can spit fire or use water or plant magic is probably the most satisfying option. This is something that it seems like the other types just don‘f offer.
I really enjoyed the analysis here. I just wanted to mention that my favorite idea for a new type is Sound tipe. But I too think it is not necessary to add another type.
I’ve always thought about how lightning always tried to find its way to the ground and if it hit anything else that was only because it was the closest thing. By that logic, you would assume that a lot of flying things would get hit but it’s actually not the case. It’s the ground that gets struck most of the time and I really like that example
I’m 18:00 minutes in, but one comment I haven’t seen so far is the asymmetry of different advantages. Simply put, being good against a good type is better than being good against a bad type. Having a similar number of resistances and weakness across each type seems like it would make every type balanced, but it can still end up with types that are better than others because of the specific types they’re good against.
yes i agree that electric types shouldn't be weak to ground i can under stand ground being immune but it doesn't disrupt electricity it makes a lot more sense for electric types to be weak to fire, water or ice because those elements disrupts electrical circuits
Another decent loop that wouldn't take much to make into a "perfect loop". I wouldn't be disappointed if Game Freak had those three on the table to select from.
There are some really cool ideas in here (especially the ghost/dragon/fairy trio) Personally, I've always thought that poison should be supereffective against water. Afterall, an oil spill can be a huge environmental disaster. Personally to keep it balanced I would maybe remove the effectiveness against bug for reasons other people have said in the comment section.
On the idea of perfect imbalance and how it affects the metagame dynamics: We're gradually experimenting with this with Fire-types. Fire-types were considered a bad type generations ago, but that all started to change with the introduction of Fairy-types. Fairy-types were designed to balance out Dragon-types, which were too strong. Soon Fairy-types became the most powerful type, which led to Steel-types starting to emerge as a counterpoint. In the last few generations, Steel established itself as the best type, but now in Generation IX, Fire-types have emerged as a counter to Steel-types with the bonus of resisting Fairy-types, making them a good type in the metagame. I predict that by Generation X, we'll see Ground-types emerging as an answer to Fire-types and Steel-types, and then Water-types as an answer to Ground-types and Fire-types, etc.
Pre-watching speculation/input: one thing I would change about the type chart is making steel types weak against electric types. One thing that all metals share in common is the fact that they are a strong conductor of electricity, and isn’t that the exact reason why water types are weak to electricity?
Merge ground and rock. Then merge grass and bug. All bug pokemon really can fit in grass or poison, and it doesn't need its own. Remove normal from the type chart. Don't eliminate normal, but make normal.... normal. And then you have 15 elements. Fifteen is a nice place to be at
Honestly. Fairy doesnt need to be immune to dragon and itd still be op according to some folks. My main concern with the type chart is that ice as a type is always a strictly negative change to a pokemon, your change slightly improves it yeah
I've thought it be interesting if some regions had thier own interpretation of type chart. Like maybe some regions combine ice and water into a single type or maybe a region where they don't consider normal and ghost real types, thinking of them as Like states of being. Or one that uses a a pokemon personality as the deciding factor like a righteous or a intelligent type (maybe classification would be better word).
Steel is super effective against fairy because in European cultures especially the main way of dealing with the supernatural is with iron, because it symbolises industrialism and the disconnect that forms from nature as humanity progresses technologically. This can be seen best in how werewolves are weak to silver bullets. Great video and I appreciate lots of the changes you suggested. I personally always wondered why fighting wasn’t either super effective or resistant to itself and seeing you change that made me finally able to be at peace
ok sorry for nitpicking but its silver bullets not steel bullets, atleast from the werewolf stories ive seen/heard
@@chisei8282 yes but fairy is iron, its not the werewolf type after all
@@chisei8282 Silver is still a metal, same as Iron. Logic still applies, Steel is kind of a misnomer for the type, the TCG really had it right, Metal is a more appropriate title.
No it represents industrialization which kills nature which is what fairy represebts
Silver bullets come from a story of a man who melted down an inherited silver icon of the Virgin Mary to make bullets to kill an unkillable dog-monster that was thought to be sent by Satan. It wasn't the metal, not even the silver, it was that the bullets were made of a holy icon that made them effective. Over time, all that mattered became the silver itself as the original story became forgotten and replaced. It's completely disconnected from the fairy and iron thing, which is a pre-Christian idea.
Bugs have historically always required our best poisons to kill, if it _can_ kill a bug, it *WILL* kill everything else.
And even those tend to eventually fail as Bugs develop to become resistant to it.
Is this bait? Nicotine is a pesticide, but humans can inhale it for decades. Your house can get fumigated monthly and you wouldn't even notice.
The effectiveness of poison basically depends on how small your body is, and they work very easily on bugs because they're so tiny.
@@_WhiteMage Not bait, just raging to the heavens about toxin resistant bugs.
@@_WhiteMage considering that cockroaches alone can resist and even survive toxic nuclear wastes while we develop cancers I say yeah that makes sense.
@@techstuff9198 this is just making me imagine maggots or cockroaches with a smoking addiction
I actually love the lack of perfect loops in the type chart. I think the asymmetry of Pokémon is great and truly valuable to the health of the game. Having imperfect loops makes them each feel different as types rather than a reskin of the fire water grass. Cool video!
Instead of making Fire and Ice neutral towards each other, I think I would make them super effective against each other. That's a unique interaction that we don't have yet. Bug and Fighting resist each other but no two types are super effective towards each other. And to buff Ice a little, I would make Ice be immune to itself since that is also something that no other type does.
I love that Bug is immune to Psychic, it makes sense. And removing Steel's resistance and Dark's immunity are also great ideas to make Psychic just a bit better
Bug and Poison were super-effective on each other in Gen 1.
@@NitroIndigo It makes sense why Poison is good against Bug but not the other way around. Good that it was changed
it makes no sense to eliminate dark's immunity to psychic. Fear inhibit's the mind and dark is the strongest form of fear hence the immunity. bug should resist psychic but not be immune to it because an insect's mind is far smaller compared to a human mind plus insects are a common form of fear albeit a weak form.
Fun fact: In the beta version of Gen II (which was available as a demo in Japan at certain events) Normal and Dark were super effective against each other (for some reason)
Also, fire and ice being strong against each other only really works if there is no water type
I’ve only ever seen that in games where water and ice are the same element
@@Deathnotefan97 So do you think Fire, Water and Ice could be a cool triangle? Just like the starter types except swap out Grass for Ice
I love the idea of Ice, Poison, Electric, Dark as it would represent CMYK to Fire, Grass, Water's RGB!
omg youre right :D
The hell is CMYK
@@shadowprince4620 its a color model using cyan, magenta, yellow and black! It is the additive counterpart to RGB’s subtractive type of color model. CMYK is mostly used in color printing.
@maybeaferret7877 why is black represented by K? I gathered the others from the original comment but I couldn't think of any colors starting with K. Is it just to differentiate it from Blue?
@@curt367 I Looked it up and apparently it is meant to represent key or keyplate! A printing term that meant the plate that held the most detail, most often being black!
5:30 One interesting thing is that with this loop, you can actually have a loop within a loop. Rock, Fire, and Steel create a loop with each other, but also all 3 are simultaneously strong against Ice and weak against Ground. This could potentially be used for some neat gameplay tricks, such as a first gym that's ground type, and encouraging the player to search a snowy forrest or mountain for counters to said ground types!
sounds like some of the Fire Emblems’ magic triangles, where Light
2:36 See, there's a reason why Pokémon doesn't need any new types, even outside of a game design/balance perspective. Every one of these concepts (aside from maybe ooze) is already represented by a currently existing type
Magic: Fairy, and sometimes Psychic
Acid: Poison
Void: Dark
Crystal: Rock
Divine: Fairy again
The vast majority of things that could be made into types are either already represented by a type or are already an existing archetype of move like sound
What do you think comes next to sounding like a real type that could be added?
@mandu9979Another new type could be a Cosmic type focused on outer space and quantum physics.
@mandu9979that could fall under electric type as I can’t name something digital without it being based off of electricity
@@brandonvelde5774Cosmic is represented by physic by most of the 20 or so Pokémon. It wouldn’t be viable.
@@FireFoxie1345 Would it though? Psychic is more about the mind and the supernatural.
Me and a friend were talking about making Normal super-effective against Fairy. From a mechanics side, normal deserves a super effective offense and fairy could stand to have a third weakness. From flavor side, the way we see it, normal is like "the real world" which starkly denies fairy tales. Making a Normal pokemon essentially a rebuttal to the existence of Fairies
@mandu9979 the argument could be made, but if we are going off of a flavor thing, it would make more sense for steel types to be super effective against dragons as well, because like, knights in shining armor, whereas normal types I'd say are fine as neutral both ways since the average person could potentially be a threat to a dragon given the right circumstances.
going off of the Fae, Fairy would be super effective against Normal lol
Make dragon weak to bug just because
Hell I believe in one of the Peter Pan remakes the fairy almost died when the pirate complained he doesn't believe in fairies.
@@DivineXDiamond because fuck dragons I guess lmao
As someone who exclusively cares about fixing the typechart for competitive pokemon purposes, and is wholly indifferent to the typechart's effect on mainline games-many of these changes have drastic domino effects that would be disastrous for competitive pokemon. By "disastrous" of course what I mean is that your changes would cause the pool of viable pokemon who even "exist" in the first place (i.e.: have any reason to treat like they even exist at all) to shrink to a fraction of what it is now. Alot of this comes from the fact that buffing a type's offensive capacity doesn't really buff that pokemon as much as it does buff the most defensively-sound pokemon that know moves of that type. Making fairy type weak to bug type doesn't make bug type pokemon much stronger-but DOES make fairy type pokemon afraid of every non-bug type pokemon out there that learns U-Turn. Buffing a type's defensive capacity goes alot further to actually make types stronger. Here are some examples of some of the negative effects your proposed changes might create:
For example, fire types being weak to stealth rock by itself means that fire type pokemon are among the worst of the worst from the get-go-and have a ton of trouble just existing. Most of the time their fairy resistance is the only thing giving them a competitive use-case that even lets whatever other advantages a given fire type might have be explored in the first place-and even then if a fire type pokemon isn't the single best fire type available its not worth the stealth rock weakness to even consider. Worsening fire defenses even further by removing the very valuable fairy resistance-without an even more significant buff to compensate-is akin to deleting all fire type pokemon from the game.
Ground type pokemon are most-of-the-time absolutely terrible, having only three resistances and weaknesses to quite possibly all three of the most common attacking types in the game. Other than ground types like Landorus, Great Tusk, or Excadrill that are paired with such strong secondary typings and are given such strong utility to justify the risk being ground type comes with-ground types never even see the light of day. The one thing giving it a use-case despite being an atrocious typing overall is its offensive capacity. I see you modestly improved their defense ability, but since they were already at a deficit it is nerfing an already struggling type.
There were a handful of other such changes, but mostly along these lines. As someone who theorycrafts type chart changes ALOT, one thing i've learned is that adding or removing weaknesses is a very volatile means of rebalancing types with the most dramatic domino effect. Its generally better to rebalance by simply adding or removing resistances. And even then, removing resistances can be volatile. A good tool is to keep track of every possible combination of the 18 types and see if your changes have increased or decreased the number of those combinations with 5 or more weaknesses and/or double weaknesses. If you have, its probably time to go back to the drawing board a bit. But then again, our goals are vastly different from one another so there's also that-but I can't help but wonder if there might be some venn diagram overlap between our two goals.
This is a super interesting post from the perspective of someone who no longer plays Pokémon, but watches a lot of VGC competitive format, where entry hazards are non-existent in the meta, so fire types are fairly common.
this looks like bait ngl. it's not like having a bad type invalidates a pokemon from being good, looking at you tyranitar, and saying ground types are terrible? have you considered that the reason ground is weak to common, powerful types is that a large part of why those types are common and powerful is because they're good against ground types? getting free switches against electric moves is invaluable, especially when it comes to volt switch, and don't brush off stab. yeah fire types hate stealth rocks but acting like volcarona will suddenly be PU if it doesn't check magearna for the month before it gets banned is hyperbolic.
@@ILiekFishes I was never trying to say that a bad type automatically invalidated a pokemon regardless of other factors, and trying to imply such sounds like you're either deliberately oversimplifying my argument in bad faith or blatantly misunderstood everything I was saying. My point is that a bad typing raises the bar of what that pokemon's other attributes (ability, movepool, etc) need to compensate for so goofy high that the deck is stacked heavily against 95% of pokemon of a given type. Ground type's electric immunity helps stuff like Landorus and Great Tusk, sure, but trying to imply that the type is perfectly balanced because of the immunity sounds as goofy as trying to say that Mudsdale or Sandslash are OU staples. Adding more offensive super-effective interactions, and removing resistances from types that already struggle defensively, dramatically decreases the number of type combinations that are good enough to not need goofy support to be viable. Instead of 25-40 OU viable pokemon in a given meta, you're shrinking the pool down to only a fraction of that.
Competitive autists are so annoying lol
Yeah, but the premise of the video was a series reboot. I feel like if the kind of reboot that redoes the entire typechart, would also come with a redo of learnsets. I also feel like entry hazards in general are overdue for a massive overhaul.
Interestingly, you actually removed a perfect loop in grass, ground, poison. I'm not against that change, I'm just pointing it out.
I like the idea of some games using less types, since it'll mess with the meta for that specific game without having to make knock on changes. I could see a tropical island region that has a volcano in the middle, leading to a lack of ice types. Or a cavernous region that has few flying and grass types.
1. I can't believe I missed this loop. I should have talked about it.
2. It's *almost* a perfect loop since ground doesn't resist itself like the other two do, however, it is so close to a perfect loop that yeah, I should have mentioned it... So here is what I would have said!
"I'm going to mess up this loop in my own edits instead of enforcing it and I don't really mind doing that. The reason being, Grass is already in its own perfect loop and I would like to avoid doubling up as much as possible."
@@RadioactiveMagicGames In a similar vein, Fire/Steel/Rock is also currently a perfect loop aside from Rock not resisting itself. I always imagined some generation with a thematic of Environmentalism vs Industrialism, with one game having a Grass/Ground/Poison trio and the other having a Fire/Steel/Rock trio, then with a third version that had a classic Fire/Grass/Water trio, though the idea of alternative starter towns within a single game as you described here would likely be a better implementation for such a concept.
"I could see a tropical island region that has a volcano in the middle, leading to a lack of ice types."
Hoenn says hi :P
One element to this I think folks that suggest a starter type trio change up underestimate is player psychology. Simply put, I don't think any of the other trio loops are as player intuitive as fire/grass/water especially for the younger and or newbie side of the player-base. Like sure the Elekid, Smoochum, and Magby trio used in romhacks like FireRed Omega works for the older skewing demographics of that scene but I'm skeptical that setup makes it out of focus testing/play testing for a mainline game with the financial expectations of AAA franchise that has to have a broad appeal.
Yeah, nothing else is intuitive or A-list like plant , water, fire. Then again, I remember learning that grass is super effective to water and thinking it dosent make intuitive sense. Just because plants drink water dosent mean they are good at defrosting water
I like some of these ideas but I think it might focus a bit too much on the big picture. For individual types, you kinda want their matchups to reflect their nature and there was probably opportunities to examine the type concepts in isolation to determine what could help flesh out a type's personality.
You made fighting resist itself but what if you made it weak against itself instead to evoke recklessness and competition in fighting types going toe-to-toe? You could also bring out the warrior archetype in them by having them be super effective against dragons.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also didn't spot any attempts to make two types super effective against one another - candidates for that could be ghost and psychic: mortals trying to master the supernatural and the supernatural in turn proving how dangerous that ambition is. Fire and ice are also self explanatory candidates for this, but maybe also steel and electric.
Of course you can also make resistances add to a type's personality. Steel is the obvious one but bug also gets a shoutout for resisting fighting and ground, the two types with a reputation for reliably hitting most targets at least neutrally, which gives bug that sense of a pest you can't fight conventionally.
I like the broad structuring of these type loops but I think there's some work you can do to have the macro details work in concert with the micro details. What should it feel like to play a particular type? Gen 1 set an arguably ugly precedent of using base stats and moves to answer this question: rocks feel bulky because all the rock types have high defense, bugs feel weak because we made them all weak. As the generations have gone on and pokemon within a type diversified, you don't really feel that same sense of belonging between Golem and, say, Lycanroc. Moves and stats flesh out individuals but I don't think it should carry the weight of a whole type, yknow?
I really don't think any game with only 3 types could really be considered a Pokemon game anymore. Games with only a single triangular perfect loop just end up pushing the strongest stat sticks to the top anyways, which is ideally something elemental weaknesses and resistances should be discouraging. It would also shut out dual types from the game and any access to coverage moves would sort of defeat the purpose of a perfect triangle and make speed and power the unequivocal best.
The reduced type numbers and lack of dual types in the TCG could be an interesting starting point. The way they handle weaknesses, resistances and the occasional immunity reminds me of more standard JRPGs where each enemy might have their own unique spread, with general rules for certain classes/species. I'm not sure that's particularly helpful or a direction I want pokemon to go in, but it could be an example of how to scale down various systems in the game, such as going from 4 to 2 moves, to accommodate a smaller chart.
That being said, I do like the idea of limited types by game (Especially with spinoffs. Gates to Infinity and Pokemon Conquest had very limited rosters and obvious winners from lack of counters) and even an expanded type-chart to add into the rotation.
Also, you highlighted Ground is neutral to Ground at 12:35, meanwhile Ground hitting Rock neutrally is not marked. Good thing you covered every type's changes in full later!
The high prevalence of certain type pairings is also worth noting for type changes, such as Poison/Grass being 4x resistant to Fairy and now having dual-STAB coverage for any secondary typing on a Fairy. (Although, in general, getting four extra weaknesses is already pretty damning, especially since you point out Grass is one of the most common types.) Rock/Ground types can cheer for losing one of their 4x weaknesses. I agree with Bugs getting a much needed buff (and Poison too, since their main selling point is Fairy coverage and defending against the status), and curiously I don't think there's any major implications for Poison/Bug types.
Flying/Normal stayed exactly the same too XD
Yeah I don't think a just 3 type game would be much good, hence why I didn't focus on it for too long, for the reasons you stated. I would be really interested to see a 9 type spin-off. Plenty for duel types while being a shorter game that still keeps the strategies varied!
Great note about how some duel pairings are really common, even this aspect throws balance through another turn around well after you have made the adjustments to the chart.
This is something I used to think about a lot, and I really like your changes! ❤
Very well made video, deserves thousands more views than it currently has. Hope you get the recognition you deserve.
12:40 This is very interesting. Very interesting choice not to make them all balance to 0. When I did it myself I made them all balance to 0, and only kept interactions that make sense. It was quite a job.
I never got why steel doesn't resist fighting, armor literally exists so that you can take less damage from physical attacks, taking extra damage because you put on armor makes no sense
the equivalent of a simple physical attack would be normal, which steel resists. Fighting is more about martial arts, which have the mystic and legend of making someone so strong to be able to crush metals
@@lucasrxrxx1859 no martial art is strong enough to crush industrial steel, rocks definitely but not steel
@@Fr00stee ikr? they should also get rid of the fairy type, fairies don't even exist
@@lucasrxrxx1859With that in mind, we should also get rid of Psychics, Ghosts, and Dragons as those don't exist.
@@lucasrxrxx1859also the dragon type, it's also fake. While we're at it why not remove psychic type also because psychics are all frauds?
I’ve literally always start ghost dragon and fairy was such an interesting type circle. Not only are they just amazing and cool times that often result in some pretty interesting designs but there’s almost a theme of fairytales and whimsical supernatural creatures when you put them all together, and in a way that really fitting for Pokémon but it’s also very different so you could lean into like a folklore aspect. Unseen, fairies, playing tracks, ghost, howling in the wind, and legends of dragons, hidden within the wild of your hometown.
If you want to be technical about it, Water should be immune to electric, because water is actually a perfect insulator. It's the impurities in the water that make it conduct.
If you want to get technical about it, the only perfect insulator is a perfect vacuum.
@@timothyscheneman1689void/space type? Lol
I don't think any of the water represented in Pokemon is distilled.
@@chaotickreg7024 a new fire/water mon with Volt Absorb because it's boiling and distilling its own water to be immune? Or at least resist?
@@GaioSamurai There could definitely be a boiling water pokemon with electric resist, I could see that. Or it could based on holy water, maybe it filters another way, idk.
Really liked the changes and would be cool to see this happening in a real pokémon game. The idea of grass being weak against dark doesn't feel right to me. I think the dark type suffers a lot from the way its name has been translated. The dark type is to be intended as the evil and mischevious type and not as the "abscence of light" type ahaha but that's was just your idea and everything else was very good!
While I understand that as the evil type Dark generally focuses on brutal and savage or mischievous or underhanded attacks I'd say that having darkness & Shadow based attacks as a manifestation of evil isn't a bad thing given the human perception of darkness being evil. If ghost can have shadow based attacks why not the evil type? It's no different from multiple different types having light-based attacks.
@@leafdragoon8551 they have in dark pulse and such and that's completely fine maybe they are a mix of both evil and darkness but again dark pulse for example is said to be aura imbued with dark thoughts not specifically darkness sooo
Yeah this is fair, Dark isn't so much the "absence of light" but I guess I was just taking Pokemon's, at times, wishy-washy definitions of things :P
@@RadioactiveMagicGames I don't blame you ahaha! Some dark pokémon such as Darkrai may suggest darkness and gloominess but if you look closely you can see that they all are malicious and mean beings. What about ghost types? They are more evocative in that sense and the move night shade is a clear sign ghosts draw power from pitch black nights and darkness.
At first i thought Dark was super effective against Grass lol. But after learning it was more of an immoral type and not just "no light" im ok with Dark being neutral on Grass. Plus Grass gets a lot of hate with how many weaknesses it has and how little of an offensive presence it is
It has never made sense to me that Steel isn't weak to Electric...the logic behind Water being weak to Electric applies just as well to Steel.
Also how the heck do you only have triple digit subscribers? Your content is absolutely fantastic, very thoughtful and incredibly edited. You're a real hidden gem and you've got yourself a new subscriber :)
Thank you so much :D
I see this everywhere, but Steel shouldn't be weak to Electric. Do you know why electric cables are made of metal? It's because electricity passing through it doesn't have any long term damage, while passing electricity through water will pretty much kill anything in it.
The big difference is that Steel type Pokémon are almost all just giants hunks of metal, while almost every Water type is a fish, or other aquatic creature.
So run an electric current through a metal pipe and one through an aquarium and tell me which lasts longer, because I'll bet you anything that the metal pipe can take it all day long.
@@dillonsomerville4729 Ah! But! In the real world we don't have animals that are made of metal or live in/amongst it.
If you want to make a fair comparison then you would compare the conductivity of water without any life in it.
How can you know for sure that electricity running through a metal *organism* wouldn't do lots of damage to it?
Since we are creatures made of mostly of water and we know that water *can* conduct electricity AND by doing so it does damage, we can extrapolate that a creature made of metal (with even greater conductivity than water) could take even greater damage!
@@RadioactiveMagicGames Plants are also water based life forms. According to your logic, why isn't Grass also weak to Electric?
I'd say either make both Steel and Grass weak to Electric, or make neither.
@@dillonsomerville4729 you got me there! :P
Nice job! I k ow how incredibly difficult it can be to redo the type chart, and how unbelievably opposed to type chart changes the fan base ends up being.
Fighting is called the Hero type in Japanese and so it's why it interacts badly with the pure Fairies. Same thing for the Dark type that is actually called Evil type there.
Fact check: You are correct concerning the Dark Type, but the Fighting type in Japanese is called かくとうタイプ, which translates to "hand-to-hand fighting" type.
Hero form Palafin not being fighting type was a missed opportunity if true
@@KeitaroHirochibut the reason it beats evil aka dark is because the fighting type also represents justice so if fairy is supposed to be good magic or something there shouldn't be a clash between them and justice
@@rgmoses2189i’m sure they agree, it was just a note on the translation mistake
Also, some nice changes here! Good video. The Bug vs. Ghost relationship was really insightful and I really like your change there.
Fantastic work on the editing! Overall great production and great ideas, good work!
Some of the changes I felt were unneeded such as Fire not having any relationship with ice. Ice doing neutral damage to Fire (like in G1) is fine, but Fire not hitting it super effectively though? Things such as Electric dealing 1/2× to Rock while becoming strong against Steel, Fighting being resistant to itself are alright enuf though.
1 crucial thing u forgot to mention is traits & benefits a type can have: terrains, weather, Grass' immunity to Leech Seed & powder moves, abilities, movepools (Normal having tons of elemental coverage) & how good moves can be for a certain type (Scald for Water-types, Draco Meteor for Dragon), Ghosts can't be trapped starting with G6, moves that a said type can usually get (Water-types being blessed with Ice moves, Dragons typically get Fire moves), rarity of a type (as u mentioned Grass being quite common), & so much more. There's a lot to consider when balancing the type chart & I think u did a ok job. Hard to say how balanced it's in practice by just looking at it.
Hoping on the "You can justify anything for type advantages" bandwagon. My favorite thing to point out is fire boiling or evaporating water.
12:34 I would be interested in seeing a rom hack with these changes and see if this would overly change so much to the meta.
I think Dragon might be a bit of a problem now. With Fairy no longer being immune to it and both Fairy and Steel getting much weaker it seems incredibly powerful offensively. At the bare minimum I would make Psychic resist it, as it was already bad and this new type chart just hurts it even more.
I've maintained for a long time that Ice should get a Dragon resist. Helps patch up the "glass cannon" quality of the type and also gives another way to check dragons, who are most frequently high-power mons.
@@DarthMohawk1 i was about to say the same thing. Ice could really use the boost and it would actually give it a niche where it works well
also dragon resists all the starter types which is just annoying
@@log3ckert386that’s kind of the point with Dragon though, of the five “elemental types,” Dragon resists the three/four starter types, with Ice, the once lategame elemental type, being the one to beat it. It’s designed as an endgame type, one that you can’t just bulldoze with your starter.
I would make Psychic very effective against Steel because of the very old idea of psychics telecinetically bending spoons :D
I think some ice type mons should have an ability where if attacked by a fire type move, they become a water type. Fire melts ice but water puts out fire
yessss ty for doing the electric steel change i ALWAYS think it should have been like that. was always confused why it wasnt
Fire not beating ice just *feels* wrong on a core level, ngl
Fire melts ice into water, which beats fire.
Makes sense to me.
@@vegeta002 is an ice type pokemon good at manipulating water?
If i melted your gun into a pile of hot slag, hot slag is really dangerous, but you certainly can’t use it very effectively against me any more
@Arkouchie Ice is just frozen water, and ice attacks tend to freeze targets, while fire types tend to be very hot.
Encase the fire type in ice and that ice will be melted into water. Now you have a fire type doused in water, a devastating position to be in.
@@vegeta002 that doesn't make any sense as if the ice pokemon melted then it already lost, ice should be weak to fire
@@shubuman Ice coating a fire type has nothing to do with the pokemon using Ice Beam or whatever freezing move is used, so fire's effect on Ice is not relevant and was never the debate.
Ice in contact with a fire type is water, therefore fire should be weak to ice. It's literally the same as melting metal into molten slag and throwing it in someone's face.
I really like how well you broke it down the type chart that was really well done
OMG finally someone mentions an ooze/slime type! It's my favourite idea for a new type
The Dark type in Pokemon is less actual darkness and more malice or evilness(and there's the common media trope of good guys always winning in the end, hence why Fighting, the type encompassing honor, and Fairy, the type encompassing good magics, both resist it). If you wanna buff it, I'd say make its interaction with Poison better(whether resisting it or being supereffective against it), with the reasoning of villains in media often being associated with illness and poisonings.
11:39 I think the narrative reasons behind type matchups are the single most important thing. Balancing should be considered only secondarily
12:36 psychic has no effect on bug, interesting. Why is Bug super on fairy?
Fairy is a spirit of nature. It should not be harmed by Plants or Bugs. Also why is fairy weak to ghost? It should be the other way around due to fairies being spirits of life and spring.
Interesting that Dragon is strong against dark. I can’t imagine a logical reason though.
Psychic has no effect on bug: Insectophobia
Bugs eat plant.
Ghosts can scare fairies.
And Dragons live in dark caves.
@@exaltedfalcheon1793
Why would all dragons live in dark caves xD
@@l.n.3372 to be left alone.
my biggest beef with the fairy type was always that it was immune to dragon instead of just resisting it. with how common fairy type is, in my opinion, it nerfs dragons too much.
dragons were always supposed to be insanely powerful and hard to obtain. that's why the majority of dragon types pre gen 6 were legendaries and pseudo legendaries. i understand that since there ended up being so many across all the generations, they wanted to nerf it, but the solution should have been maybe not letting it resist so many things, and giving it one or two offensive weaknesses while making sure to keep dragons hard to obtain. if someone goes through the effort of catching a dratini and raising it into a dragonite, gosh dang it that dragonite should be able to touch a hecking clefairy. that is all.
I think this type chart is too out of whack. I don't think you considered the offensive interactions of sister types.
For exemple, trading Steel's ground weakness for an electric weakness is a huge buff. Not only does it give it a nich as a rare electric resist, but more way more importantly: You just make Steel not weak to EdgeQuake. One of the most common sister types.
Ground/Rock, Water/Ice, Electric/Ice/Fire (BoltBeam is the scary variation atm but no matter the changes keep in mind most mons with one of the punches/fangs get all 3 types), Fire/Grass, Dark/Ghost.
^A good type chart must take in mind the associations of types in move sets.
EdgeQuake: Ground is reliable but has frequent full immunities, while Rock has low accuracy and SR keeps x4 weak pkm away but it covers Ground's coverage.
Water/Ice: Ice is arguably the best offensive type, while water is arguably in the running for top 3 defensive types. Putting Ice on a water type is a cheat code that can't be too free to abuse in either building your mon or piloting it.
BoltBeam: Perfect coverage. Don't give it to mons with stab on either unless they are physical attackers. Keep the special attacks trio (with fire) the privilege of normal types. Give the punches and fangs more freely as those moves are worst and make contact. Be more willing to give the full trio from fangs than punches.
Fire/Grass; Sun can't be a free. It exists. It functionally boosts 2 type dmg with close to perfect cover in a way nearly comparable to a +2 boost without accounting for abilities.
Dark/Ghost: The "I might not murder you but I will cut you" perfect coverage.
1:10 I didn't recognize the ice icon and spent time listing off all the types and kept forgetting ice exists - I forgot an entire type exists
0:10 complicated
Once again, water is still too powerful as a starter type, just slap an ice beam on it and you have only one weakness, and if you are water/ground with swift swim, well lol good luck. Fire is still too weak, all three of its vulnerabilities are common as heck with stealth rocks, earthquake, and way too many strong water types everywhere. Solution: make poison and dragon super effective against water. Poison: oil and sludge contaminating water supplies and killing off most life is very common nowadays, as for dragon, well in japan, dragons are masters of water. Otherwise amazing video, you deserve more views and subscribers.
Dragon being super effective against water is stupid unless we're also going to make dragons super effective against every type (if it exists, there's a dragon in some mythology that controls it)
"Fire is not super effective against Ice" -a statement made by the utterly deranged
Fire got fairy as a resist for two reasons:
1. Fairy is already one of the best types in the game. It needs more resists
2. Fire is very weak defensively compared to water and grass. It would benefit from getting a defense boost. Not according to the type chart, but when you factor in the pokemons and moves in the game. Stealth Rock straight up makes some mons unviable, earthquake is extremely common and one of the strongest attack in the game. Being a fire type is often a negative, when Game Freak meant it to be a mostly balanced type like water or grass
I am really interested in how different dual types would look like with this chart, specially how some pokemons would be buffed or nerfed with this.
Welp now dragon is the most broken type by a landslide since the only two types that switch well into it are now significantly weaker and it now has a new valuable resist in ghost typing. Ice being a little better doesn’t really help that much since ice types don’t resist Draco meteor spam.
Cynthia got a whole lot more dangerous again :D
Congratulations on inventing a type combo that has 3 double weaknesses: bug/grass. Good luck out there, Paras!
3:15 What I got from this video: fairy type is 10 years old. I have yet to play any Pokemon game with fairy type in it. I'm old. Only Kanto exists leave me alone!
Clefairy is an actual fairy now!
Some would call these loops type triangles, but whatever floats your boat.
This is so awesome!
I really wanna play a game using your Pokémon chart.
There’s like 6 super effective type loops apart from the starter one with the current type chart, some off the top of my head are Grass-Ground-Poison, Water-Ground-Electric, Steel-Ice-Ground, Fighting-Dark-Psychic and Fighting-Ice-Flying
A huge issue with this type chart is that it messes up competitive completely. Its interesting for in-game but a fixed type chart isnt going to fix the numerous other issues releases have had. The most notable part of these changes is that dragon and ghost become even stronger offensively, which if youve played vgc, bss or smogon singles, you would know why thats such a bad ides.
99% of people don't even bother with the competitive side of pokemon so who cares lmao. All competitive pokemon is is smogon fart sniffers and constant swapping of pokemon in and out. Boring af.
@theteutonicorder9158 the main series games suck ass for numerous reasons and the type chart is not one of them. That's probably the least important thing given everything else. Also it just sounds like you don't know how to play and all you do is click the Unga bunga button lol so you wouldn't care about the type chart. And there's a reason I listed the comp modes in that specific order since that's the order game freak cares about them/gives them importance in and vgc specifically is very important to them right now.
@pmwaffle9348 I don't even play Pokémon anymore. X and Y were my last main series game. Just got fed up with all the handholding and lack of content. I've tried a lot of Pokémon style games like nexomon , coromon, and cassette beasts. Next month Extinction was probably my favorite one of those despite the flaws I enjoyed it a lot more than Pokémon.
@theteutonicorder9158 comp (vgc) is quite literally the only thing thriving right now. BSS is only really popular in Japan and smogon singles have been a mess this gen thanks to powercreep and that isn't even the worst. Casual fans are given absolute slop and for some reason keep eating it up. I'm glad we're in agreement about that at least because it's really sad how poorly the switch games are made compared to earlier titles and the sheer revenue they produce.
FYI, the real type chart that we have has more type triangles than just Fire/Water/Grass and Rock/Fighting/Flying. We also have Fire/Rock/Steel and Grass/Poison/Ground.
Thought the video was really interesting but something that got ignored is the whole secondary immunities that types have. Such as Grass types being immune to spore and dark types being immune to moves done with the prankster ability
9:50 hearing “scissors, paper, rock” instead of “rock, paper, scissors” was so jarring and made me uncomfortable 😣 Lol
A type related move I made is Yin and Yang, a normal special move with 80 base power. It affects everyone on the field, and reverses their affinities. (So, Fairy would be weak to dragon and Grass would resist bug)
Here's a different proposal for the Steel Type: I like the idea of it being an all or nothing type in defense. Weaknesses to Water, Electric, Fire, Fighting and Ground, but resists all other types and is immune to poison. That way, there's careful thought into type coverage and in dual types.
As long as water and electric are nerfed in other ways, because they are some the strongest types on the game even without that.
@@goldfishsandwich9737 In that scenario, I'd give Water a weakness to Poison, and Rock a resistance to Electric. Poison is based around pollution and toxins, which spread significantly easier through water than ground or air. And If Ground is immune to Electric because it grounds the electricity, I don't get why Rock shouldn't at least resist it for the same reasons, plus it gives Rock, Steel, and Ground all different interactions in extremes with Electric.
Bug is my favorite type and i'm happy to see it getting some buffs!
I really like the Fairy's resistance to Ground, in reference to Faerie Forts and Fey Traps.
This helps me think about how to manage my own typing system. Think I got it figured out now actually. With Sound/Ohm, God, and Nothing being the big debalancers, it should be perfectly balanced within the wheel, and perfectly imbalanced as a whole system. (God & Nothing are always monotype. God makes Sound, Sound fills the Nothing, Nothing beats God)
"An allergy to thoughts that differ from yours" iconic
You must be good at designing. The center Master Ball matched perfectly to the TH-cam play button on mobile.
a lot of the relationships in this video is actually well described by a branch of math called group theory. you could pull from group theory concepts like quotients and subgroups to efficiently create loops and subsets and starter sets with certain properties
I’ve been wanting to figure out what type triangles could be for every type so this video was practically made for me!
You truly thought this out, and you covered all of your bases, and some ideas and concepts that I’ve always found really interesting. And though you have strong critiques of what you discuss, it clearly comes from a place of love and admiration in this video it’s just brimming with so much genuine creativity, and inspiration
4:25 Another problem with having Flying/Rock/Fighting starters is that Rock resists Normal moves, and at level 5 most starters only have a normal move available, such as Tackle or Pound
Bug type and Poison type used to be super effective against eachother, at least in gen 1
Parasect and Leavanny now have three 4x weaknesses......great
FU-
the bit where multiple of himself just keep lining up is peak humor
Rock and ground being different types was such a smart decision
I was following the idea until I saw that Steel had stopped being super-effective against Faerie (what I like most about the interaction between these two types is precisely the reference to the lore of cold iron being used to deter and harm faeries and other supernatural beings in folklore).
Emperor cubebone explain in a video why certain types cannot work
If you can remember which one, send a link! I would love to watch it.
@@RadioactiveMagicGames I’ve sent it to messages
Grass Poison Ground is still my favourite loop in pokemon
It's not the most intuitive, but poison and ground do feel like they fit the starter vibe better than fire.
17:15 well...I'll use a very, very precise example here, but I think that they're neutral because of the Faraday's law induction. To make it extremely short, inside a close iron cage for example, the electricity will pass through the cage, but not inside, what I mean by that is that, on a steel pokemon, the electricity will pass through his body (hence why it's not immune to electric), however, the electricty will not affect the "insides" of the pokemon
Really liked grass having advantage over Fairy! tho complete advantage seems a bit much imo. I think Grass resisting Fairy is enough. I also completely agree with some other changes, like Ice resisting water or steel being weak to electric.
On the topic of electric, one idea that I like and have never seen mentioned is electric being super-effective against bug. Much like how poison could represent pesticides, electric could represent bug zapper lights and other such devices.
Really good. I like it, one small change.
I'd add to bug super effective damage against everything except itself and a resistance to everything
I just figure it deserves it after all this time
This misses most of the themes and conceptual reasons behind type matchups, fails to create interesting spots with full immunities or double-effective matchups, and nobody who says "scissors paper rock" in that order can be trusted.
There is one other loop that already exists being ice ground and rock though it’s understandable to over look it
the synthesis of ground and rock type: the gock type
I think there are good reasons for the starters always being these three types though, not so much for gameplay reasons but for what it feels like, especially to new players. They are arguably the types that feel the least mundane and the most like that little critter you adopted is actually magical. Most of the other types actually feel fairly mundane in what they represent (even things like electricity), with the exception of ghost, psychic, dragon, dark and fairy but those last ones are also a lot less obvious in what they represent.
I think for this reason, letting the player adopt a tiny creature that can spit fire or use water or plant magic is probably the most satisfying option. This is something that it seems like the other types just don‘f offer.
I really enjoyed the analysis here. I just wanted to mention that my favorite idea for a new type is Sound tipe. But I too think it is not necessary to add another type.
I’ve always thought about how lightning always tried to find its way to the ground and if it hit anything else that was only because it was the closest thing. By that logic, you would assume that a lot of flying things would get hit but it’s actually not the case. It’s the ground that gets struck most of the time and I really like that example
What would be the most broken Pokemon/Typing in his edited chart?
Dark, psychic and fighting is my personal favorite loop
Squirtle terrified of a leaf on his head is hilarious.
I’m 18:00 minutes in, but one comment I haven’t seen so far is the asymmetry of different advantages. Simply put, being good against a good type is better than being good against a bad type. Having a similar number of resistances and weakness across each type seems like it would make every type balanced, but it can still end up with types that are better than others because of the specific types they’re good against.
yes i agree that electric types shouldn't be weak to ground i can under stand ground being immune but it doesn't disrupt electricity it makes a lot more sense for electric types to be weak to fire, water or ice because those elements disrupts electrical circuits
water should definitely stay good against rock
I would like to see someone do a element type squares video.
There was also a Steel, Fairy, and Fighting in the old type chart
Another decent loop that wouldn't take much to make into a "perfect loop". I wouldn't be disappointed if Game Freak had those three on the table to select from.
Cool modifications ! I could live with them
There are some really cool ideas in here (especially the ghost/dragon/fairy trio)
Personally, I've always thought that poison should be supereffective against water. Afterall, an oil spill can be a huge environmental disaster.
Personally to keep it balanced I would maybe remove the effectiveness against bug for reasons other people have said in the comment section.
On the idea of perfect imbalance and how it affects the metagame dynamics:
We're gradually experimenting with this with Fire-types. Fire-types were considered a bad type generations ago, but that all started to change with the introduction of Fairy-types. Fairy-types were designed to balance out Dragon-types, which were too strong. Soon Fairy-types became the most powerful type, which led to Steel-types starting to emerge as a counterpoint. In the last few generations, Steel established itself as the best type, but now in Generation IX, Fire-types have emerged as a counter to Steel-types with the bonus of resisting Fairy-types, making them a good type in the metagame. I predict that by Generation X, we'll see Ground-types emerging as an answer to Fire-types and Steel-types, and then Water-types as an answer to Ground-types and Fire-types, etc.
Imo ice very much just needs a water and ground resistance.
Pre-watching speculation/input: one thing I would change about the type chart is making steel types weak against electric types. One thing that all metals share in common is the fact that they are a strong conductor of electricity, and isn’t that the exact reason why water types are weak to electricity?
Merge ground and rock. Then merge grass and bug. All bug pokemon really can fit in grass or poison, and it doesn't need its own. Remove normal from the type chart. Don't eliminate normal, but make normal.... normal. And then you have 15 elements. Fifteen is a nice place to be at
16:10 Wouldn't this logic mean that they are super effective against each other?
Honestly. Fairy doesnt need to be immune to dragon and itd still be op according to some folks. My main concern with the type chart is that ice as a type is always a strictly negative change to a pokemon, your change slightly improves it yeah
In the desert there are oasis’s you could just have an oasis area for water and grass types
I've thought it be interesting if some regions had thier own interpretation of type chart. Like maybe some regions combine ice and water into a single type or maybe a region where they don't consider normal and ghost real types, thinking of them as Like states of being. Or one that uses a a pokemon personality as the deciding factor like a righteous or a intelligent type (maybe classification would be better word).