In the books it’s heavily implied that Jayne Westerling was a honey trap set by Tywin so Robb would betray his marriage oath to the Freys. After Robb’s murder Tywin pardons the Westerlings for switching to Robb’s side (which is very unusual for Tywin who normally wipes out rebellious house’s completely). Tywin even offers to find a new husband for Jayne.
It's not implied, it's outright stated. Sybelle Westerling, Jeyne's mother, made the deal with Tywin to prevent Robb from marrying anyone else or fathering children, by getting him to marry Jeyne, whom Sybelle would does with contraceptives under the guise of fertility drugs. In exchange, Tywin made Sybelle's brother, Rolph Spicer, a lord with castle & lands, promised to find husbands for Jeyne and her younger sister husbands who were lords or the heirs to lords, and also to provide a wife of Lannister blood to Sybelle's oldest son, Reynald, her husband's heir. The Spicer family were only in their second generation from being made noble, and their great wealth enabled Sybelle to marry Lord Gawen Westerling, whose family was ancient and highly respected for its blood & honor, but were impoverished. The marriage probably helped with some of the Westerling debts or expenses, but it also meant that the next generation of Westerlings, Reynald, Rollam, Jeyne & Eleyna, were considered to be of lesser blood, since their maternal grandfather was not born to the nobility. Kevan Lannister, whose de jure rank simply that of a knight, holding no lands or title, refused to marry Jeyne to his YOUNGER son, despite his respect for Lord Gawen, simply because Jeyne was 1/8th commoner. The whole point of the deal Sybelle made with Tywin was to erase that taint from her family. With Lannister backing, her daughters would marry lords, and their own children would inherit lordships one day. Her brother would be raised to one of the most powerful lordships in the Westlands, ensuring that the future of House Spicer would be assured of their place in the aristocracy, and by marrying Reynald to a Lannister woman, the prestige of his wife's blood would cancel out the "taint" of his mother's and so the Westerling line would be redeemed. It is important to note that when Balon Greyjoy, who brings a LOT more to the table than Sybelle Westerling did, and whose attack on the North did more to bring about the Red Wedding than Robb's marriage, offers an alliance to Tywin, he gets nothing, because as Tywin points out, Balon has already made an enemy of the Starks, and has to keep fighting them, whether or not the Lannisters reward him for doing so. In other words, Tywin does not give out rewards if he does not need to do so. If Sybelle had written to Tywin saying "I pushed my daughter into Robb Stark's bed & got a shotgun marriage, give my family all these rewards, and I will betray Robb for you," Tywin would have just LOL'ed at her and told her that the only reward she'd get for betraying Robb would be a pardon for signing up with him in the first place. The fact that Sybelle gets the rewards from the Lannisters proves that there had to be a deal in place before she ever acted, as does the great extent of the rewards she obtains, and how strongly the outcome goes against Lannister inclinations. The Lannisters are uber snobs and do not want these newcomers and upstarts poking their way into the society of the lords of Westeros. Tywin objected to his sister marrying a Frey, because they have only been lords for about 600 years or so. The fact that he is willing to elevate the Spicer-Westerling family so (not to mention, marrying two of his precious Lannister male nephews to Frey women) shows just how hard up and over a barrel Tywin was, and how badly he needed ANY alternative solution to facing Robb Stark in battle again.
Sad. Ned heavily trained Robb & Jon to be war captains, & both ended up living EXACTLY that experience as teenage boys. He couldn’t have believed that would happen, when he was teaching them
It was the fact he made her no longer a virgin that dishonored her not just simply getting her pregnant(which she didn't as far as we know). Besides I don't think Robb would be down for killing his unborn child either way
“The shiftiest people alive” 😂😂😂😂😂😂. That’s the damn truth. Robb is one of my favorite characters and I wish we had gotten a pov of him but seriously just make the girl drink moon tea or keep her on the side. His downfall is so frustrating because it was SO preventable.
@@ExploringFiction There were no ways out for Robb, not that he could have taken. Martin's point is repeatedly that the system is not fair, not just to women and commoners and younger sons, but also to the heirs and powerful lords. Robb was asked to shoulder impossible burdens, at way too young an age, he accepted them all and did far better than anyone had a right to expect of him ... and it's still not enough. The Boltons & Freys made their deal with Tywin to betray Robb before he married. It was the elimination of Robb's heirs, meaning Robb was the only one standing between Roose & rule over the North, and the defeat of Stannis at the Blackwater, that made the Boltons and Freys think they could profit more by betraying Robb than by serving him and helping him win. If Robb screwed up, then it's less of a tragedy, because you can say he failed. Instead, all he did was succeed, and just kept meeting further obstacles, because adults who are supposed to be older, wiser, more experienced and more sophisticated, don't understand basic politics or strategy. Lysa should send troops to the aid of her family (like Robb did), because her family are the only people she can trust to come to her aid. For sure, Littlefinger never feel safe pushing her off a cliff if her sister, brother & nephew are still in power. Balon should grasp that Robb's victory and secession from the Seven Kingdoms is his own best hope for his own independence and coronation to succeed. Robb is the only king who does not want the Iron Islands back under the rule of Kings Landing. Balon should, even if he doesn't want to help, at least not want to hinder or impede Robb in any way. Edmure, even if he does not know Robb's plan, should want Tywin to march out of his lands, to stop pillaging Edmure's people and burning their homes, but he interferes and blocks Tywin's path, because he sees a chance to win a battle. These are the things that lead to Robb's downfall. Had Lysa sent the Knights of the Vale, Robb could easily have won the military victory he needed to have his people & lands safe. Had Balon kept in his lane, and contented himself with looting the Lannister & Tyrell coasts, Robb's brothers would not have been believed dead nor his home castle fallen, and he'd have been in too strong a position for Roose Bolton to try assassinating. Had Edmure stuck to his orders and let Tywin pass, Stannis would have won at Blackwater, taken the Iron Throne and no one would dare assassinate Robb, because Stannis would never give them the rewards Tywin does. He'd be much more likely to execute them, because the good act of killing a rebel king does not wash out the bad of following & helping him for months, murder, oathbreaking and violation of hospitality. And they would know it. There is nothing Robb could have done to save his life at the Crag. Marry or abandon Jeyne, sleep with her, or not, when Stannis lost and Theon took Winterfell, the Red Wedding was put into motion.
@Rengokuo4o6 probably if he was gonna lose, but if winning, I think Walder would have been pretty happy so close to the new King with a double marriage.
Bro, you know damn well they were going to betray him even before he showed up with Jeyne don’t u remember them plotting with Toose at Harrenhal in the Arya chapter
@@billychops1280 They were, but I'm not sure if they would have gone through with it. Either way, since Edmure and Roslin wouldn't be married in this situation, they'd have to find another way to betray him.
19:10 I feel so bad about edmure in this part , bro was just doing his job and defending his lands since no one warned him about the plans, in the end he came out as some kind of "idiot" or "incompetent"
When you think about it, Edmure single handedly fucked the whole campaign. With Tywin routed and kings landing taken no deals can be struck with Roose and Walder. A deal could be struck possibly with the Tyrell’s and Robb finally avenges his father, keeps his head, and keeps his westerling wife.
If just one of the following had not happened, Robb would probably have won: - Edmure's interference - the storm that delayed Stannis' fleet - Tyrion's wildfire & chain plan - the Baratheons prioritizing getting rid of each other, instead of Joffrey (either brother could survive the other's taking the throne, but neither would live free under King Joffrey - Cersei could not afford to leave them alive) - Tywin making terms with Mace. - Theon taking Winterfell (easily avoided had Ser Rodrik left a proper garrison protecting Robb's ONLY MALE HEIRS, instead of the handful of guards who could be overpowered by Theon's 20, or, hell, Summer being left to run free. If Summer is not locked in the godswood, the men who swam the moat and climbed the walls would have been eaten before they could let Theon in). With Bran & Rickon alive, there is still a King in the North if Robb dies, so the risk of killing him is too great, for too little payoff. Basically, if Kings Landing falls, the Lannister cause is doomed, and the Freys have no protection and no bribes to turn. There were so many things that needed to go just right to save the city, and they all worked in Tywin's favor. If Winterfell stands, and at least one of Robb's brothers is known to be alive, it is too dangerous for Roose to flip.
A bit harsh, considering that Robb left them little choice. It was either this or open battle for the Freys, after being betrayed by Robb, but in open battle they could have been all killed easily. What would you have done?
If you actually pay attention to the books you should realize Robb Stark is an whiny insufferable prick who deserved Red Wedding 110%. Face it you only like Robb because he is Ned's son and opposes Joffrey, at least Joffrey remembers his Oaths better than Robb.
If tywinn did get to the west i think he might have beat robbs army but obviously stannis takes kings landing and if robb didnt die or something in the fight against tywinn then he would have to bend to stanmis or fight him so i donts see his story ending well even if married frey
Regardless of who wins in the South, Lannister, Baratheon, or even if the Tyrells decided to simply conquer the realm, the North would be their enemies. Crowning him King was the deathblow to the northern cause.
Listen 👂 if I was Robb, I would’ve took in the information of my fathers death from my throne in winterfell and built a force from my house, would’ve definitely claimed king of the north, rally thee entire north, if they don’t join, then they die, and there house will go to another lords family whom ever claims, an move on, like the Freys, I would’ve immediately took battle if they can back with that proposal! I’m at war not into finding a wife,
Gee, too bad Robb didn't have that scenario, that he only learned of his father's death when he was at Riverrun, having already gotten hip deep into a war, and made a marriage pact. Robb did not have the luxury of punishing the Freys and making them comply, he was fighting to save his father & sisters, and his grandfather & uncle, and did not have the men or the resources to storm the Frey's castle, and he could not besiege it from only one side of the river, since they could move supplies and reinforcement in the other side. If I had a totally advantageous scenario and the luxury of planning all my moves ahead of time and knowing who was going to betray me and could instantly summon troops, who move at walking speed, from across a kingdom the size of Brazil, then yeah, I too would be an invincible warlord.
I just thought of something like just now. Ned and Robert are polar opposites. Ned has most of his children looking like his wife. The Tully genes. And his bastard. That's not a bastard. Has the Stark gene. Meaning he looks just like Ned. All the while Robert has 3 "trueborn" heirs that look nothing like him that are all bastards. And all of his bastards look just like him
It's funny how most people say honour is what gets the Starks murdered but it was actually Robb's LACK of honour that did him in. Had he just married the Frey girl he would've had an incredibly strong chance at least commanding terms of peace if he didn't out right win ... Unshakable honour is what got Eddard and questionable honour did one of his sons while having, too, many loyalties got the other (Jon).
Honor is a strange thing. In many cultures, honor can mean doing your best for the person you serve. Ned could have maintained his honor had he sided with Stannis, but pretended to take the deal Littlefinger offered him. Or at least accept that agreement for some time, while preparing for Stannis.
@@MrBell-iq3sm The problem with Ned is that he'd see that (lying) as dishonorable. It's why he doesn't tell his children about the true events of the fight between his group and Ser Arthur Dayne's. He felt ashamed that he only won through a stab in the back. He also mentioned to Jaime that when he fights: "he fights for real, not for glory." Because of his core character traits, Ned was absolutely doomed from the beginning, lol. Bloody hell, he was so honour bound he warned Cersei. Which got both Robert Baratheon and himself killed.
@@EL-ISS I don't think lying was the issue. He never stopped certain lies from spreading, be that his relation to Jon or his defeat of Ser Dayne. I think his issue was the disdain of political intrigue, the game, so to speak. There was no honor in warning Cersei, because her fate and that of her children was neither his fault nor his responsibility. He could have kept his honor by speaking up for them, or at least pleading for her children after revealing the truth to Robert.
@@MrBell-iq3sm Oh this is a good ol' nerdy discussion, so thanks for it, lol. That is true, but he also doesn't spill about Jon because he knows Robert's hate for Targaryens which would put Jon's life at risk. A similar thing with Cersei. He cares nothing for that green eyed witch but the children are innocent. We get a glimpse of this with how adamant he is on not sending assasins after Dany. So though he is lying or betraying some loyalties, it is still honorable to protect all innocence even if they come from a rival side. It's ironic that the north doesn't have concepts of knighthood and chivalry, yet they often come out as honoring the code more than the Southron Knights, lol.
@@EL-ISS They absolutely have those concepts. That is a major point in the story, that the honor & chivalry ARE good and worthy, but A. knights don't necessarily follow them and B. you do not need to be a knight to display those virtues. That's why the series is full of "fake" or "false" or "unworthy" knights who actually, by their actions, live up to the ideals of knighthood in some ways better than any true knight. Men like Sandor Clegane, Dunk, Brienne and Davos are deliberately contrasted with Jaime, Gregor, Aerion Brightflame, Renly's Rainbow Guard and Ser Axel Florent. There are honorable and good men in the North, and also assholes and monsters, like Rickard Karstark, Barbrey Dustin nee Ryswell, Roose Bolton & Ramsey. It has nothing to do with a title before your name or a fancy ceremony. The northmen only lack the appearances, not the substance. And even with the few knights in the North, we see Jorah Mormont, an official knight who is a slaver, traitor and creeper, against the Manderlys who are scorned for their physical condition but are loyal to the end.
....it is said....... NO, NO, no. there is no legitimised jon snow nor confirmation that robb named him his successor. that is pure fanon at this point.
@@Kaizer64746 that is who he seemed to desire but not necessarily who he finally named in the will. so no. it is still fanon to claim Robb named jon snow.
why Jeyne WESTERLING from a house from the Westerlands he should known better they dldnt even have a big army freys were more powerful than them brought more as well protection too make it north
Some people think she got pregnant by Brandon Stark (Ned’s brother). They were betrothed before his death and Brandon had a reputation for taking maidenheads
@@laidback7359 Brandon rode to Kings Landing, was arrested, and his father came from Winterfell to court, where they both were murdered. Then Ned rode from the Eyrie to the north coast of the Vale, sailed across the Bite, stopped at Sisterton, sailed on to White Harbor, joined his army, and marched south to Riverrun, where he married Catelyn. She would ABSOLUTELY have been showing by that time. There is NO WAY Catelyn had Brandon's child OR Littlefinger's. He, too, was long gone from Riverrun by the time the Rebellion started.
How about fewer poetic flourishes and some actual analysis? This is basically just a summation of Robb's story, with no analysis, and it's an extremely superficial version, simply repeating the popular in-universe myth that Robb's honor got him killed and his marriage was the cause of his downfall. The truth is that Robb's downfall was orchestrated by greedy and treacherous people for their own profit, taking advantage of opportunities that arose through no failure of Robb's, but by self-destructive actions of other people who abandon, reject or fail him. The whole point of the Tully marriages in the Rebellion was to create a system of allies, an extended family who would support and back each other up. If Robb does not ride to the defense of Hoster Tully, what point to making an alliance with House Stark? Lysa should have come to their aid as well, and her failure to do so is radically against her own self-interests. With the apparent defeat of Houses Stark & Tully, there is no one left with an interest in Lysa's well-being and she is easily disposed of by the man who convinced her to turn her back on her family. Had Lysa done the smart thing, the thing that 99.9% of nobles in her position would have done, the Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance would have been too powerful for the Freys & Boltons to cross, or the Lannisters to defy. Robb offered an alliance to Balon Greyjoy, because it was in both their best interests. No other king in Westeros was willing to see the Iron Islands be independent. But Balon acted for his own petty emotional validation, and did not have a plan to conquer the North or actually gain any benefit, just tie up all his troops in an impossible war, with no allies and committing to the fight so the Lannisters did not even need to give him anything, since he was already stuck in a war with the Starks. Again, someone was too stupid to see the obvious gain in cooperating with Robb (Theon even pointed this out to Balon in their first meeting, and Balon had no answer). Some will point to Theon taking Winterfell and say that sending him to Balon was a mistake, but when Theon arrives, Balon's forces are already mustered. Balon was preparing to go to war against the North before Robb sent him home. Everything Balon says is trying to find fault with his son upon their reunion, because he is trying to justify the decision he already made to sacrifice Theon for his revenge on the Starks. All that keeping Theon close would have done was force Robb to execute his best friend. And the worst consequence of sending Theon home is not remotely something Robb could have anticipated - there is no way he should have been able to take Winterfell with such a small force, when it is the seat of a King and the home of his only male heirs. Theon needed the extreme good luck of Rodik failing to leave enough guards on a pair of princes to fight off a couple dozen ironborn. Even Bran's wolf being allowed to run free would have foiled Theon's plans. For both Baratheon brothers, the Iron Throne was the goal, but getting rid of the Lannisters was an absolute necessity, because Cersei & co could never let them live. But rather than strike for the throne to get rid of the Lannister claimants, their false nephews, and gain the appearance of legitimacy that comes with sitting on the actual throne, they chose instead, to fight one another, giving the Lannisters a critical breather to prepare defenses and make alliances to keep their hold on the crown. And even after that fight is settled and Stannis is driving for Kings Landing, bad luck with the weather delays his army for days, waiting for the storm-halted fleet to carry them across the river. Without that storm, Tywin & Mace Tyrell arrive at the Blackwater to find Stannis already holding the city and sitting on the Iron Throne. The sheer misfortune of Edmure's disobedience also thwarts Robb's plan to lure Tywin into a trap, and either defeat him and cut off the head of the Lannister snake, or at least delay him so that Stannis can take the city and end Tywin's pretentions to be acting in the name of the king. All of these things, over which Robb had little control and what control he did have, could not foresee these outcomes, combine to place Robb is an unpleasant strategic situation near the end of aCoK. Because the other claimants to the Iron Throne are defeated, and the Lannisters allied with the Tyrells, the fight for Northern independence looks too difficult. Walder Frey is willing to settle for Robb holding the North as Lord of Winterfell & Warden, so that Walder's descendant can one day inherit that position and the Freys will finally have elite status. But since Robb inconveniently keeps winning battles, and has principles and understands good rulership, he can't and won't kneel to the Lannisters to make the Freys' lives easier. So Walder has another grandson-in-law, in Roose Bolton, and through Roose he can still obtain that half-Frey ruler of the North, with bonus rewards from the Lannisters, if he betrays Robb and puts Roose in his place. Roose Bolton is always up for getting rid of the Starks so he can rule unchallenged, answering to no one. The loss of Winterfell the feigned deaths of the other Stark males means that all they need to do is get rid of Robb and the North is free for the taking. So, with Roose in Harrenhal, conveniently close to Kings Landing (that's why Tywin was using it for a base), he can contact Tywin and offer to kill Robb with the help of the Freys... for a price. Meanwhile, Robb is in the Crag, and Sybelle Spicer is the wife of Lord Gawen Westerling. She has ambitions of climbing the ranks of the nobility, but her merchant grandfather and herbalist grandmother mean that the nobles won't accept her as one of their own. Only her family's wealth got her a lordly husband, but her common blood had created obstacles for her childrens' marriages. So with Robb Stark, conveniently close in age to her daughter, under her care, she arranges to have Jayne left in close proximity to him, allowing nature to take its course, perhaps helped by the secret addition of love potions like Grandma Spicer used to sell. She contacts Tywin offering to end Robb's chances for a marriage alliance by shackling him to her daughter instead, in exchange for a deal that will give the Spicer-Westerling family the clout and connections to be truly accepted among the aristocracy. Tywin agrees with the caveat that Robb not have any children, promising her lordly husbands for her daughters, a bride of Twyin's own kin for her eldest son and a lordship for her brother to elevate her birth house's standing. According to Tywin himself, none of those coconspirators knew about one another! Roose & Walder were planning to betray Robb BEFORE they knew about his marriage. Sybelle had no idea that Robb was going to be murdered by the Freys, and neither did her brother, Rolph, whom Grey Wind identified as a traitor to Robb. Rolph was assigned by Robb to exchange Lannister captive to secure the release of Robett Glover, ranking survivor of the ambush of the Duskendale expedition ... and witness to Roose Bolton's treachery! Robett is next seen alive & well in the North, plotting against the Boltons with Lord Manderly. If the Spicers knew anything about the Bolton plans, Rolph would have killed Robett or kept him hostage. But he let him go, because he had no idea that Robb was about to die. And sending Robett Glover & Helman Tallheart into that ambush was Roose's event horizon. Once he gave those orders, he was committed to his treachery, because when Robb found out, he was a dead man. And they needed to cut down on the numbers of loyal troops and commanders, in order to succeed at the massacre at the Wedding. So, because Tywin does not give rewards to people who already betray his enemies, as we see with Balon, Roose HAD to have a bargain in place with Tywin before he sends out Glover and Tallheart, and he sends them out the same day that word arrives of Robb's marriage. The perpetrators of the Red Wedding were committed to the plan and promised their rewards from Tywin, BEFORE Robb was married! Robb had NOTHING TO DO with the motivations for his own betrayal. Walder did not kill him out of outrage at breaking the betrothal, he did it to get a lordship for his second son, power in the Riverlands and immunity from the crown. Roose did not go along with the murder because he dreamed of his kids and Robb's being cousins through their Frey moms, he wanted ascendancy in the North, a decree of legitimacy for his bastard son, and a Stark bride to give his family a claim to Winterfell. Had Robb kept his word and left Jeyne behind to uphold his pledge to marry a Frey, he would still have needed to go east to cross the rivers and return North. With his brothers believed dead, everyone would be urging him to father a son ASAP, which would mean consummating his marriage pact, and since his betrothed's home is on the way... And thus Robb would have been the groom at the Red Wedding, rather than Edmure. Except Roose has no motive to keep him alive as Walder did Edmure. Robb's downfall was NOT his fault.
In the books it’s heavily implied that Jayne Westerling was a honey trap set by Tywin so Robb would betray his marriage oath to the Freys. After Robb’s murder Tywin pardons the Westerlings for switching to Robb’s side (which is very unusual for Tywin who normally wipes out rebellious house’s completely). Tywin even offers to find a new husband for Jayne.
It's not implied, it's outright stated. Sybelle Westerling, Jeyne's mother, made the deal with Tywin to prevent Robb from marrying anyone else or fathering children, by getting him to marry Jeyne, whom Sybelle would does with contraceptives under the guise of fertility drugs. In exchange, Tywin made Sybelle's brother, Rolph Spicer, a lord with castle & lands, promised to find husbands for Jeyne and her younger sister husbands who were lords or the heirs to lords, and also to provide a wife of Lannister blood to Sybelle's oldest son, Reynald, her husband's heir.
The Spicer family were only in their second generation from being made noble, and their great wealth enabled Sybelle to marry Lord Gawen Westerling, whose family was ancient and highly respected for its blood & honor, but were impoverished. The marriage probably helped with some of the Westerling debts or expenses, but it also meant that the next generation of Westerlings, Reynald, Rollam, Jeyne & Eleyna, were considered to be of lesser blood, since their maternal grandfather was not born to the nobility. Kevan Lannister, whose de jure rank simply that of a knight, holding no lands or title, refused to marry Jeyne to his YOUNGER son, despite his respect for Lord Gawen, simply because Jeyne was 1/8th commoner. The whole point of the deal Sybelle made with Tywin was to erase that taint from her family. With Lannister backing, her daughters would marry lords, and their own children would inherit lordships one day. Her brother would be raised to one of the most powerful lordships in the Westlands, ensuring that the future of House Spicer would be assured of their place in the aristocracy, and by marrying Reynald to a Lannister woman, the prestige of his wife's blood would cancel out the "taint" of his mother's and so the Westerling line would be redeemed.
It is important to note that when Balon Greyjoy, who brings a LOT more to the table than Sybelle Westerling did, and whose attack on the North did more to bring about the Red Wedding than Robb's marriage, offers an alliance to Tywin, he gets nothing, because as Tywin points out, Balon has already made an enemy of the Starks, and has to keep fighting them, whether or not the Lannisters reward him for doing so. In other words, Tywin does not give out rewards if he does not need to do so. If Sybelle had written to Tywin saying "I pushed my daughter into Robb Stark's bed & got a shotgun marriage, give my family all these rewards, and I will betray Robb for you," Tywin would have just LOL'ed at her and told her that the only reward she'd get for betraying Robb would be a pardon for signing up with him in the first place. The fact that Sybelle gets the rewards from the Lannisters proves that there had to be a deal in place before she ever acted, as does the great extent of the rewards she obtains, and how strongly the outcome goes against Lannister inclinations. The Lannisters are uber snobs and do not want these newcomers and upstarts poking their way into the society of the lords of Westeros. Tywin objected to his sister marrying a Frey, because they have only been lords for about 600 years or so. The fact that he is willing to elevate the Spicer-Westerling family so (not to mention, marrying two of his precious Lannister male nephews to Frey women) shows just how hard up and over a barrel Tywin was, and how badly he needed ANY alternative solution to facing Robb Stark in battle again.
Sad. Ned heavily trained Robb & Jon to be war captains, & both ended up living EXACTLY that experience as teenage boys. He couldn’t have believed that would happen, when he was teaching them
Robb was so cool he was like nah im gonna screw it up not losing my 0 to anyone but me
Robb should’ve ask Jeyne Westerling to drink moon tea if he so hung up about his child being a bastard
Or just not slept with her 😂
She may not have wanted to do that.
It was the fact he made her no longer a virgin that dishonored her not just simply getting her pregnant(which she didn't as far as we know). Besides I don't think Robb would be down for killing his unborn child either way
"Hey Jon, I need you to raise this kid for me"
Robb is too sentimental to do that.
“The shiftiest people alive” 😂😂😂😂😂😂. That’s the damn truth.
Robb is one of my favorite characters and I wish we had gotten a pov of him but seriously just make the girl drink moon tea or keep her on the side. His downfall is so frustrating because it was SO preventable.
I definitely agree, that's part of why it's such a hard pill to swallow. There were so many ways out
@@ExploringFiction There were no ways out for Robb, not that he could have taken. Martin's point is repeatedly that the system is not fair, not just to women and commoners and younger sons, but also to the heirs and powerful lords. Robb was asked to shoulder impossible burdens, at way too young an age, he accepted them all and did far better than anyone had a right to expect of him ... and it's still not enough. The Boltons & Freys made their deal with Tywin to betray Robb before he married. It was the elimination of Robb's heirs, meaning Robb was the only one standing between Roose & rule over the North, and the defeat of Stannis at the Blackwater, that made the Boltons and Freys think they could profit more by betraying Robb than by serving him and helping him win. If Robb screwed up, then it's less of a tragedy, because you can say he failed. Instead, all he did was succeed, and just kept meeting further obstacles, because adults who are supposed to be older, wiser, more experienced and more sophisticated, don't understand basic politics or strategy. Lysa should send troops to the aid of her family (like Robb did), because her family are the only people she can trust to come to her aid. For sure, Littlefinger never feel safe pushing her off a cliff if her sister, brother & nephew are still in power. Balon should grasp that Robb's victory and secession from the Seven Kingdoms is his own best hope for his own independence and coronation to succeed. Robb is the only king who does not want the Iron Islands back under the rule of Kings Landing. Balon should, even if he doesn't want to help, at least not want to hinder or impede Robb in any way. Edmure, even if he does not know Robb's plan, should want Tywin to march out of his lands, to stop pillaging Edmure's people and burning their homes, but he interferes and blocks Tywin's path, because he sees a chance to win a battle.
These are the things that lead to Robb's downfall. Had Lysa sent the Knights of the Vale, Robb could easily have won the military victory he needed to have his people & lands safe. Had Balon kept in his lane, and contented himself with looting the Lannister & Tyrell coasts, Robb's brothers would not have been believed dead nor his home castle fallen, and he'd have been in too strong a position for Roose Bolton to try assassinating. Had Edmure stuck to his orders and let Tywin pass, Stannis would have won at Blackwater, taken the Iron Throne and no one would dare assassinate Robb, because Stannis would never give them the rewards Tywin does. He'd be much more likely to execute them, because the good act of killing a rebel king does not wash out the bad of following & helping him for months, murder, oathbreaking and violation of hospitality. And they would know it. There is nothing Robb could have done to save his life at the Crag. Marry or abandon Jeyne, sleep with her, or not, when Stannis lost and Theon took Winterfell, the Red Wedding was put into motion.
Should've married the Frey
Nah they would have betrayed him either way.
@Rengokuo4o6 probably if he was gonna lose, but if winning, I think Walder would have been pretty happy so close to the new King with a double marriage.
Bro, you know damn well they were going to betray him even before he showed up with Jeyne don’t u remember them plotting with Toose at Harrenhal in the Arya chapter
@billychops1280 Yes, that's why I said they would betray them if they didn't keep winning
@@billychops1280 They were, but I'm not sure if they would have gone through with it. Either way, since Edmure and Roslin wouldn't be married in this situation, they'd have to find another way to betray him.
19:10 I feel so bad about edmure in this part , bro was just doing his job and defending his lands since no one warned him about the plans, in the end he came out as some kind of "idiot" or "incompetent"
even with all his flaws and/or stupidly bad decisions, I love Robb and he’s one of my most favorite characters ❤️🔥🐺
When you think about it, Edmure single handedly fucked the whole campaign. With Tywin routed and kings landing taken no deals can be struck with Roose and Walder. A deal could be struck possibly with the Tyrell’s and Robb finally avenges his father, keeps his head, and keeps his westerling wife.
Yep it's so unfortunate to see...
If just one of the following had not happened, Robb would probably have won:
- Edmure's interference
- the storm that delayed Stannis' fleet
- Tyrion's wildfire & chain plan
- the Baratheons prioritizing getting rid of each other, instead of Joffrey (either brother could survive the other's taking the throne, but neither would live free under King Joffrey - Cersei could not afford to leave them alive)
- Tywin making terms with Mace.
- Theon taking Winterfell (easily avoided had Ser Rodrik left a proper garrison protecting Robb's ONLY MALE HEIRS, instead of the handful of guards who could be overpowered by Theon's 20, or, hell, Summer being left to run free. If Summer is not locked in the godswood, the men who swam the moat and climbed the walls would have been eaten before they could let Theon in). With Bran & Rickon alive, there is still a King in the North if Robb dies, so the risk of killing him is too great, for too little payoff.
Basically, if Kings Landing falls, the Lannister cause is doomed, and the Freys have no protection and no bribes to turn. There were so many things that needed to go just right to save the city, and they all worked in Tywin's favor. If Winterfell stands, and at least one of Robb's brothers is known to be alive, it is too dangerous for Roose to flip.
Rob Stark: No hero, a fool with a short reign.
I hate the freys for what they did to Rob I hope Jon snow kills Rose Bolton and Catalyn kills Walder frey
A bit harsh, considering that Robb left them little choice. It was either this or open battle for the Freys, after being betrayed by Robb, but in open battle they could have been all killed easily.
What would you have done?
@@MrBell-iq3sm- i would have gone the pub
If you actually pay attention to the books you should realize Robb Stark is an whiny insufferable prick who deserved Red Wedding 110%.
Face it you only like Robb because he is Ned's son and opposes Joffrey, at least Joffrey remembers his Oaths better than Robb.
Lets hear it for greywind, after all was said and done he was the goodest boy.
True
If tywinn did get to the west i think he might have beat robbs army but obviously stannis takes kings landing and if robb didnt die or something in the fight against tywinn then he would have to bend to stanmis or fight him so i donts see his story ending well even if married frey
Regardless of who wins in the South, Lannister, Baratheon, or even if the Tyrells decided to simply conquer the realm, the North would be their enemies. Crowning him King was the deathblow to the northern cause.
Listen 👂 if I was Robb, I would’ve took in the information of my fathers death from my throne in winterfell and built a force from my house, would’ve definitely claimed king of the north, rally thee entire north, if they don’t join, then they die, and there house will go to another lords family whom ever claims, an move on, like the Freys, I would’ve immediately took battle if they can back with that proposal! I’m at war not into finding a wife,
facts
Gee, too bad Robb didn't have that scenario, that he only learned of his father's death when he was at Riverrun, having already gotten hip deep into a war, and made a marriage pact. Robb did not have the luxury of punishing the Freys and making them comply, he was fighting to save his father & sisters, and his grandfather & uncle, and did not have the men or the resources to storm the Frey's castle, and he could not besiege it from only one side of the river, since they could move supplies and reinforcement in the other side.
If I had a totally advantageous scenario and the luxury of planning all my moves ahead of time and knowing who was going to betray me and could instantly summon troops, who move at walking speed, from across a kingdom the size of Brazil, then yeah, I too would be an invincible warlord.
I just thought of something like just now. Ned and Robert are polar opposites. Ned has most of his children looking like his wife. The Tully genes. And his bastard. That's not a bastard. Has the Stark gene. Meaning he looks just like Ned.
All the while Robert has 3 "trueborn" heirs that look nothing like him that are all bastards. And all of his bastards look just like him
It's funny how most people say honour is what gets the Starks murdered but it was actually Robb's LACK of honour that did him in.
Had he just married the Frey girl he would've had an incredibly strong chance at least commanding terms of peace if he didn't out right win ...
Unshakable honour is what got Eddard and questionable honour did one of his sons while having, too, many loyalties got the other (Jon).
Honor is a strange thing.
In many cultures, honor can mean doing your best for the person you serve.
Ned could have maintained his honor had he sided with Stannis, but pretended to take the deal Littlefinger offered him. Or at least accept that agreement for some time, while preparing for Stannis.
@@MrBell-iq3sm The problem with Ned is that he'd see that (lying) as dishonorable.
It's why he doesn't tell his children about the true events of the fight between his group and Ser Arthur Dayne's. He felt ashamed that he only won through a stab in the back.
He also mentioned to Jaime that when he fights: "he fights for real, not for glory." Because of his core character traits, Ned was absolutely doomed from the beginning, lol.
Bloody hell, he was so honour bound he warned Cersei. Which got both Robert Baratheon and himself killed.
@@EL-ISS I don't think lying was the issue. He never stopped certain lies from spreading, be that his relation to Jon or his defeat of Ser Dayne. I think his issue was the disdain of political intrigue, the game, so to speak.
There was no honor in warning Cersei, because her fate and that of her children was neither his fault nor his responsibility. He could have kept his honor by speaking up for them, or at least pleading for her children after revealing the truth to Robert.
@@MrBell-iq3sm Oh this is a good ol' nerdy discussion, so thanks for it, lol.
That is true, but he also doesn't spill about Jon because he knows Robert's hate for Targaryens which would put Jon's life at risk.
A similar thing with Cersei. He cares nothing for that green eyed witch but the children are innocent. We get a glimpse of this with how adamant he is on not sending assasins after Dany.
So though he is lying or betraying some loyalties, it is still honorable to protect all innocence even if they come from a rival side.
It's ironic that the north doesn't have concepts of knighthood and chivalry, yet they often come out as honoring the code more than the Southron Knights, lol.
@@EL-ISS They absolutely have those concepts. That is a major point in the story, that the honor & chivalry ARE good and worthy, but A. knights don't necessarily follow them and B. you do not need to be a knight to display those virtues. That's why the series is full of "fake" or "false" or "unworthy" knights who actually, by their actions, live up to the ideals of knighthood in some ways better than any true knight. Men like Sandor Clegane, Dunk, Brienne and Davos are deliberately contrasted with Jaime, Gregor, Aerion Brightflame, Renly's Rainbow Guard and Ser Axel Florent. There are honorable and good men in the North, and also assholes and monsters, like Rickard Karstark, Barbrey Dustin nee Ryswell, Roose Bolton & Ramsey. It has nothing to do with a title before your name or a fancy ceremony. The northmen only lack the appearances, not the substance. And even with the few knights in the North, we see Jorah Mormont, an official knight who is a slaver, traitor and creeper, against the Manderlys who are scorned for their physical condition but are loyal to the end.
Lezgo new vid🎉🎉
Why couldn’t he of fallen into the arms of margaery tyrell
....it is said....... NO, NO, no. there is no legitimised jon snow nor confirmation that robb named him his successor. that is pure fanon at this point.
“I am to name Jon my successor if i am to pass unceremoniously.”
“No Robb you must not.”
“My decision is final.”
@@Kaizer64746 that is who he seemed to desire but not necessarily who he finally named in the will. so no. it is still fanon to claim Robb named jon snow.
why Jeyne WESTERLING from a house from the Westerlands he should known better they dldnt even have a big army freys were more powerful than them brought more as well protection too make it north
Wow! Catelyn hooked up with Little Finger the same night she married Ned? Or was she just already pregnant when they got married?
Some people think she got pregnant by Brandon Stark (Ned’s brother). They were betrothed before his death and Brandon had a reputation for taking maidenheads
@@laidback7359 Brandon rode to Kings Landing, was arrested, and his father came from Winterfell to court, where they both were murdered. Then Ned rode from the Eyrie to the north coast of the Vale, sailed across the Bite, stopped at Sisterton, sailed on to White Harbor, joined his army, and marched south to Riverrun, where he married Catelyn. She would ABSOLUTELY have been showing by that time. There is NO WAY Catelyn had Brandon's child OR Littlefinger's. He, too, was long gone from Riverrun by the time the Rebellion started.
How about fewer poetic flourishes and some actual analysis? This is basically just a summation of Robb's story, with no analysis, and it's an extremely superficial version, simply repeating the popular in-universe myth that Robb's honor got him killed and his marriage was the cause of his downfall.
The truth is that Robb's downfall was orchestrated by greedy and treacherous people for their own profit, taking advantage of opportunities that arose through no failure of Robb's, but by self-destructive actions of other people who abandon, reject or fail him.
The whole point of the Tully marriages in the Rebellion was to create a system of allies, an extended family who would support and back each other up. If Robb does not ride to the defense of Hoster Tully, what point to making an alliance with House Stark? Lysa should have come to their aid as well, and her failure to do so is radically against her own self-interests. With the apparent defeat of Houses Stark & Tully, there is no one left with an interest in Lysa's well-being and she is easily disposed of by the man who convinced her to turn her back on her family. Had Lysa done the smart thing, the thing that 99.9% of nobles in her position would have done, the Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance would have been too powerful for the Freys & Boltons to cross, or the Lannisters to defy.
Robb offered an alliance to Balon Greyjoy, because it was in both their best interests. No other king in Westeros was willing to see the Iron Islands be independent. But Balon acted for his own petty emotional validation, and did not have a plan to conquer the North or actually gain any benefit, just tie up all his troops in an impossible war, with no allies and committing to the fight so the Lannisters did not even need to give him anything, since he was already stuck in a war with the Starks. Again, someone was too stupid to see the obvious gain in cooperating with Robb (Theon even pointed this out to Balon in their first meeting, and Balon had no answer). Some will point to Theon taking Winterfell and say that sending him to Balon was a mistake, but when Theon arrives, Balon's forces are already mustered. Balon was preparing to go to war against the North before Robb sent him home. Everything Balon says is trying to find fault with his son upon their reunion, because he is trying to justify the decision he already made to sacrifice Theon for his revenge on the Starks. All that keeping Theon close would have done was force Robb to execute his best friend. And the worst consequence of sending Theon home is not remotely something Robb could have anticipated - there is no way he should have been able to take Winterfell with such a small force, when it is the seat of a King and the home of his only male heirs. Theon needed the extreme good luck of Rodik failing to leave enough guards on a pair of princes to fight off a couple dozen ironborn. Even Bran's wolf being allowed to run free would have foiled Theon's plans.
For both Baratheon brothers, the Iron Throne was the goal, but getting rid of the Lannisters was an absolute necessity, because Cersei & co could never let them live. But rather than strike for the throne to get rid of the Lannister claimants, their false nephews, and gain the appearance of legitimacy that comes with sitting on the actual throne, they chose instead, to fight one another, giving the Lannisters a critical breather to prepare defenses and make alliances to keep their hold on the crown. And even after that fight is settled and Stannis is driving for Kings Landing, bad luck with the weather delays his army for days, waiting for the storm-halted fleet to carry them across the river. Without that storm, Tywin & Mace Tyrell arrive at the Blackwater to find Stannis already holding the city and sitting on the Iron Throne.
The sheer misfortune of Edmure's disobedience also thwarts Robb's plan to lure Tywin into a trap, and either defeat him and cut off the head of the Lannister snake, or at least delay him so that Stannis can take the city and end Tywin's pretentions to be acting in the name of the king.
All of these things, over which Robb had little control and what control he did have, could not foresee these outcomes, combine to place Robb is an unpleasant strategic situation near the end of aCoK. Because the other claimants to the Iron Throne are defeated, and the Lannisters allied with the Tyrells, the fight for Northern independence looks too difficult. Walder Frey is willing to settle for Robb holding the North as Lord of Winterfell & Warden, so that Walder's descendant can one day inherit that position and the Freys will finally have elite status. But since Robb inconveniently keeps winning battles, and has principles and understands good rulership, he can't and won't kneel to the Lannisters to make the Freys' lives easier. So Walder has another grandson-in-law, in Roose Bolton, and through Roose he can still obtain that half-Frey ruler of the North, with bonus rewards from the Lannisters, if he betrays Robb and puts Roose in his place. Roose Bolton is always up for getting rid of the Starks so he can rule unchallenged, answering to no one. The loss of Winterfell the feigned deaths of the other Stark males means that all they need to do is get rid of Robb and the North is free for the taking. So, with Roose in Harrenhal, conveniently close to Kings Landing (that's why Tywin was using it for a base), he can contact Tywin and offer to kill Robb with the help of the Freys... for a price.
Meanwhile, Robb is in the Crag, and Sybelle Spicer is the wife of Lord Gawen Westerling. She has ambitions of climbing the ranks of the nobility, but her merchant grandfather and herbalist grandmother mean that the nobles won't accept her as one of their own. Only her family's wealth got her a lordly husband, but her common blood had created obstacles for her childrens' marriages. So with Robb Stark, conveniently close in age to her daughter, under her care, she arranges to have Jayne left in close proximity to him, allowing nature to take its course, perhaps helped by the secret addition of love potions like Grandma Spicer used to sell. She contacts Tywin offering to end Robb's chances for a marriage alliance by shackling him to her daughter instead, in exchange for a deal that will give the Spicer-Westerling family the clout and connections to be truly accepted among the aristocracy. Tywin agrees with the caveat that Robb not have any children, promising her lordly husbands for her daughters, a bride of Twyin's own kin for her eldest son and a lordship for her brother to elevate her birth house's standing.
According to Tywin himself, none of those coconspirators knew about one another! Roose & Walder were planning to betray Robb BEFORE they knew about his marriage. Sybelle had no idea that Robb was going to be murdered by the Freys, and neither did her brother, Rolph, whom Grey Wind identified as a traitor to Robb. Rolph was assigned by Robb to exchange Lannister captive to secure the release of Robett Glover, ranking survivor of the ambush of the Duskendale expedition ... and witness to Roose Bolton's treachery! Robett is next seen alive & well in the North, plotting against the Boltons with Lord Manderly. If the Spicers knew anything about the Bolton plans, Rolph would have killed Robett or kept him hostage. But he let him go, because he had no idea that Robb was about to die.
And sending Robett Glover & Helman Tallheart into that ambush was Roose's event horizon. Once he gave those orders, he was committed to his treachery, because when Robb found out, he was a dead man. And they needed to cut down on the numbers of loyal troops and commanders, in order to succeed at the massacre at the Wedding. So, because Tywin does not give rewards to people who already betray his enemies, as we see with Balon, Roose HAD to have a bargain in place with Tywin before he sends out Glover and Tallheart, and he sends them out the same day that word arrives of Robb's marriage.
The perpetrators of the Red Wedding were committed to the plan and promised their rewards from Tywin, BEFORE Robb was married! Robb had NOTHING TO DO with the motivations for his own betrayal. Walder did not kill him out of outrage at breaking the betrothal, he did it to get a lordship for his second son, power in the Riverlands and immunity from the crown. Roose did not go along with the murder because he dreamed of his kids and Robb's being cousins through their Frey moms, he wanted ascendancy in the North, a decree of legitimacy for his bastard son, and a Stark bride to give his family a claim to Winterfell. Had Robb kept his word and left Jeyne behind to uphold his pledge to marry a Frey, he would still have needed to go east to cross the rivers and return North. With his brothers believed dead, everyone would be urging him to father a son ASAP, which would mean consummating his marriage pact, and since his betrothed's home is on the way... And thus Robb would have been the groom at the Red Wedding, rather than Edmure. Except Roose has no motive to keep him alive as Walder did Edmure.
Robb's downfall was NOT his fault.
You hate Jon Snow as much as Preston Jacobs hates Jon Snow being the chosen one lol.
I actually love Jon Snow