Always loved the little detail about Stannis during this time. When he is putting the leaches with King's blood in the fire calling for the death of the usurpers, he paused before saying Robb's name. Not Joffrey, Not even Renly, but Stannis hesitated before naming Robb
In the books does that moment happen before Renly death? Because I know in the show it’s just Balon, Robb and Joff. But honestly Stannis being at least indirectly responsible for the deaths of all four of the usurpers is too interesting not to think about. Ancient laws of the land, oaths and loyalties. Promises made. Justice served.
@@striker8961 Davos 4, ASoS. Renly died in the previous book, so there's only 3 leeches, for Joffrey, Balon, and Robb (in that order). He does pause with the third leech before casting it in the brazier and "at last" naming Robb. It is interesting to think about though -- Balon was almost certainly killed by Euron, and not out of any broken oath (as with Robb) or cosmic justice (as with Joffrey, not that he was murdered for justice's sake). Did the naming of Balon somehow pull Euron back to the Iron Islands sooner than he otherwise planned? If this was the Wheel of Time, you could say the ritual tugged on or rewove threads in the Pattern. ASOIAF has prophecy, foretelling and omens, but it's unclear whether there's some diegetic force or principle analogous to the Pattern.
@@wereoctopus I think it's that Melisandre saw all three deaths in the flames (or at least thought she did lol) and she told Stannis that he had to do the leech ritual to make those visions come to pass, more or less
@@wereoctopus the vagueness of the prophecies makes me think it’s a vision from afar. So only smudges are available. And then we account for the symbolic natures. To my knowledge I don’t think a prophecy is ever untrue but that doesn’t mean peoples free will doesn’t matter. The Hedge Knight example for instance, Dunk and a dead dragon. Dunk would go on to be surrounded by many dead dragons.
Another factor that may have doomed Robb was his aunt Lysa's inaction. Even though she was regent of the Vale, and many of her bannermen were willing and motivated to join forces with her kinsmen to bring the Lannisters low. Lysa inexplicably chose not to aid her sister and nephew, instead she decided to make the Vale a neutral bystander during the War of the Five Kings. Just imagine how much of a difference it would have made if the lords of the Vale had joined Robb's cause. We're talking about at least 30,000 knights and men at arms. That would have taken the pressure off defending the Riverlands once Robb decided to head back North. Not to mention after the Iron Born had taken Moat Cailin. Instead of trying to retake the North from the Neck where the Iron Born could resist his approach, Robb would of had an easier time by sailing his army from Gulltown, to the Three Sisters and then to White Harbor where Wyman Manderly would have been waiting for him.
There was some part of an explanation here. Lysa was under the influence of little finger, and he was definitly against choosing side. He wanted to wait until a clear winner would emerge, and then use the Vale's army to his advantage. Maybe threaten the remaining army of the victorious to gain more power. The fact that he planned the death of little Robert Aryn and the Vale's line of succession shows that he intended to get rid of Lysa all along.
@MrSebaleme I've always found Littlefingers positioning there quite odd, I agree he was absolutely why the Vale didn't march to Robb, but I can't understand why he'd do that, surely if he could take credit for it, and ensure that Robb has the numbers to take Kings Landing if he wanted to kill Joffrey in retribution then surely Littlefinger would stand to gain a lot, a decapitated House Lanister, a House Stark, Tully and Arynn alliance with him in the centre and, probably most crucially, a wider war for him to exploit
Robb’s mistake was not telling Edmure that letting Tywin break into the Westerlands was the intention. Sure have some skirmishes but never drive them back, let them get through and then whenever Stannis goes to KL the odds of his winning increase exponentially.
@@Darius-_ Because Robb's force was all mounted, he could easily avoid any engagement with Tywin that he didn't want. With Tywin moved out of his central position in Harrenhal, Robb could then bring in Roose Bolton with the rest of his forces, and potentially even strike a deal with Stannis when he takes King's Landing (which he would surely have done if Tywin hadn't gotten there, for all of Tyrion's efforts). At that point, Robb would have enough forces to overwhelm Tywin or force him to surrender.
@@Darius-_ He doesn't need to encircle him, he needs him in Westerlands that's all, for as long as he is preoccupied there, he can't help lift the siege of KL, nor unite forces with Tyrells.
His biggest mistake was being a child. 14 at the beginning if the books. When he broke down in the dark next to bran, just started sobbing holding his broken brothers hand, it really hit hard how young he was.
@@shorewall no he didn’t and no he wasn’t. He was a deeply traumatized man trying to protect his family from the politics that killed his sister, who was his hero. He was never suppose to be a leader, so he was never taught how to be one. He was raised as a second son and then forced to be a leader after being traumatized so bad he has nightmares for years and very clearly suffered from PTSD. He made mistakes. No one can say he didn’t. But that’s the point. Every single character made mistakes. It doesn’t make them horrible. Your one dimensional view of him is just dumb and shows your lack of critical thinking skills. And either way, raised correctly or not, Robb was still a child. Even a child raised perfectly wouldn’t be lead to lead a country at 14.
thank you! that's something that really gets lost on people because they aged him up in the show. in the books, he's barely older than Joffrey. you could argue that the primary mistake was the northmen declaring a 14 year old their king. Robb was almost like a second coming of Daeron the Young Dragon--GRRM loves for his history to come back around--in that he's a brilliant tactician, but simply not experienced enough to understand the long game.
Stop it please. Being young isn’t a mistake, and sobbing about his brother? So what? Trusting Greyjoys? Check, bad move, Baelon was stubborn and forever angry at Starks, and being kinda stuck-up about marrying a Frey girl? Yup, just stick to your word when making that promise, but simply being 14 is not a fault in it of itself. Many 14 year olds have very strong convictions.
@@m.williams4971 no one said the he was at fault was being 14. It’s an expression, using symmetrical and metaphorical language to drive home a point. My point was that all of his mistakes come back to the fact that he was a child. Trusting Theon? That’s his best friend. As a 14 year old of course you trust your best friend. Being stuck up about a Frey? Since when are 14 year old boys really able to be good husbands? Never. He was a child and his mistakes are childish mistakes. Which makes sense because he’s a child. No one literally meant that he is at fault for being 14. But you knew that. You just like being an overly literal annoyance because at least then you can pinpoint why you’re so unlikeable and say it’s intentional.
I can’t see anything regarding Robb and his campaign without getting a little emotional. Yes he made many small yet costly mistakes that led to his downfall, but he was just a teenager. He truly was one worthy of his following, and I wish him and Jon could have been reunited as men and share the stories of their adventures to each other. The North remembers.
Robb made mistakes. But that were not that much of big mistakes. The circumstances are much more responsible for his downfall. Or i could say the writers want him to be dead. Cathlyn betrayed him by releasing jamie Lannister. Roose betrayed him at red wedding. Freys betrayed him. Karstarks betrayed him. Nobody expected Joffrey to kill ned stark. Nobody expected renly to die. Nobody expected theon to attack winterfell. Nobody expected karstarks to kill those little boys.
@@ishanparbhakar7150 One tiny nit to pick: when discussing ASOIAF there are not "writers" in the multiple. There is George R. R. Martin, *THE* writer in the singular. The idiots who ruined the show don't count.
Book Robb was one of my favourite characters and I was devastated when he was murdered. Took me a long time to forgive GRRM for that and continue reading.
Robb's downfall was the result of many small misplays that compounded into larger long term issues. Him and his allies made some boneheaded tactical decisions, lost the trust of opportunist allies like the Boltons and Freys, and failed to make meaningful alliances with Southern houses. Realistically I think Robb was just too inexperienced to win the long game.
I think you’re wrong, first off almost all Robb’s tactics were sound. The only one I can think of that wasn’t was the sack of Duskendale, which wasn’t Robb but Roose’s schemes. The only two major issues he had were diplomatic, that being betraying the marriage with the Freys (which he did for the primary reason of being honorable, which is like the main Stark attribute) and being crowned king in the north (this one not really being his fault, the northmen thrust it on him) otherwise the rest were flukes, Renley likely would have made concessions with Robb but died. Theon had planned to align the greyjoys with the starks but balon held too strong a grudge. And making meaningful alliances with the southern houses is a moot point, how was he to know that the vale controlled be his devil aunt would never help because of a petty childhood rivalry in the mind of a wicked lysa? Plus alliances with the westerlands was impossible, and the rest of the major houses (stormlands/reach) were already aligned elsewhere.
Its not really about trust its more just giving them something to make their cooperation worth while for them. Lannesters know they can buy almost anyone off if they just give a better offer, and really thats how it works. Rob probably shouldnt have trusted in allies that were not long time stark supportera for their name alone. Like come on the boltons hate starks and were given the most power in the army lol
@@flairian4528 I agree, You don’t see many Houses in the south aligned with the north. The Vale can be trusted for sure but it dependable for the Riverlands ( I say because of the Freys, and the rivalry between Blackwood and Bracken ). Northern Houses are fighters, not political figures. I doubt that he would trust Renley or Stannis because they would not agree to let him be crowned king. I say Stannis would have been the only person who could give him what he wants, if the terms are reasonable.
Renly tells Catelyn that he's OK with Robb continuing to call himself the King in the North if he likes, as long as he still pays homage to Renly as overlord: "_King_ is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service ... those I must have" (Catelyn 2, ACoK). It's unlikely Stannis would have allowed that, of course. But Robb probably could have bent the knee to either of them, and/or renounced his title, without losing face with the other lords of the North. Of course, Renly & Stannis may never have given Robb what he _really_ wants: freedom from interference, his family and/or vassals to never again be the playthings of capricious kings on the Iron Throne. Also Robb says (in Catelyn 1) that he needs Balon Greyjoy's fleet (presumably to besiege King's Landing?). He might have thought Balon would very likely bear too much of a grudge and/or be too wrapped up in his own "iron price" bullshit. But if Robb absolutely needs a fleet, and no other fleet is plausible -- maybe mercenaries from Essos, but with what coin? -- then sending an envoy makes strategic sense. Sending Theon alone was a foolish choice, though no-one would have predicted just how catastrophic that choice would be.
@@wereoctopusAgreed. But I think no matter how masterfully Robb might have played offering an alliance to Balon that never would have worked. Balon was never going to go for it. Neither would Victarion, Euron, or Asha for that matter. Only, if he sent Theon with an Army would he be able to secure an alliance witn the Iron Islands. Maybe if after Balon died, Theon returned and won the Kingsmoot (on the promise of independence, or maybe just looting Casterly Rock) but thats impossible to plan for. No one knew Balon would "fall" off a bridge. As you say, he had to take a risk, he had no other strategic choices at that point, because of poor decisions he already made.
I can't help but feel pity for Edmure Tully with the battle at the Stone Mill (where he prevented Tywin from going west). It is clear from the context that Robb was keeping his cards close to his chest, probably in an attempt to make sure the plan didn't leak to the Lannisters. Unfortunately, he played his strategy too secretively. Had Edmure known that the overall plan was to get Tywin to go west, Edmure would not have met Tywin in battle. Because Edmure was kept out of the loop (intentionally or otherwise), Edmure did what any good leader would do and acted proactively. So Edmure is a guy trying to do the right thing at great personal risk, but because the strategy was intentionally withheld from him, he made a strategic mistake and is essentially blamed for the whole war going against the Stark coalition, which is really unfair obviously. The responsibility for every strategic mistake is on Robb and Catelyn.
Was Robb in experienced or was edmure inexperienced I think edmure was dumb cause he didn’t tell his uncle his plans yet his uncle knew from his own knowledge that was Robb’s plan all along So edmure was dumb either not being told and not looking and being smart himself and having no strategy ar all
@@johnwaddles6718 Supreme commander Rob is at the top, it's ultimately his responsibility. He should have considered the possibility that Edmure was dumb and made sure to tell him the obvious.
@@johnwaddles6718 If you are referring to the Blackfish, from the very beginning, he was one of Robb's chief lieutenants, commanding the army outriders. Catelyn specifically comments on this, saying the Blackfish played an important part in every battle Robb fought. Blackfish was in the inner-most circle, Edmure was not.
I think Robb definitely made a mistake not telling Edmure, a man in command of a major army and effectively the liege lord of half of Robb's kingdom, what the overall strategy was. But it is a symptom of Robb's major flaw as a leader. He doesn't take the time to soothe the egos of his allies, possibly because he would have sucked it up to "do the right thing". He fails in the political game by relying on personal friendships as well. This may be understandable (the personal friendships of Ned, Robert and Jon were the spark that took down the Targeryans) but it was a major mistake.
Rob always gets a lot of blame for breaking his marriage pact but he shouldn't have had to make it in the first place. Frey's leige lord was under attack and Rob was comming through with an army to fight back. Any other lord would have let Rob through with no delays. But Frey haggled with and threatened his own leige lord's grandson. Can we be certain that Bolton and Frey would not have betrayed Rob if he had not married someone else? Bolton especially was always waiting for the right opportunity.
A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Frey wanted an in with the new king, and used his advantage to get it. We see many times throughout history lords competing against their kings. No king has ever ruled alone. They need to please their keys to power. If you are depending on help from someone, you have to give and take. Feudalism is by nature decentralized. I could see Robb cancelling his marriage if he could get a better political marriage, but he didn't. He acted like he didn't crave power, and so he lost.
Robb is not a Tully, he has no authority over Frey and who is he to speak of oaths when the Starks are asking the Freys to break their oaths to the crown
@@PantomimeHorseit wouldn't have mattered in the end who Robb married. He was fucked once Edmure overstepped and beat Tywin then failed to follow through. Walder was tied to the Lannisters by Marriage as well but that didn't stop him from helping Robb. In the Walder does what would give him the most power. The only difference is that the Red wedding would have been Robb's wedding
The first mistake in Robbs plan was trusting the Boltons. Yes, they are his strongest bannermen, but they are also the less trustworthy. He should have kept them close all the times. Instead, he should have given the command of his second army to the manderlys(arguably, his most loyal bannermen). The second biggest error was not marrying the Frey Girl right away, and taking some 'hostages' from the freys. As his mother said, the Freys were not to be trusted. His third error was sending Theon away.
@@Darius-_yeah but roose intentionally fought battles he couldnt win to weaken the northern army under his control and get rid of some people that were in his way (the hornwoods).
In the books, I think it's said or implied that Bolton only turned on him once he had started making enough little mistakes that it was obvious to Roose that Robb wouldn't be winning the war.
@@lightworker2956 Absolutely. Roose Bolton was an opportunist with his main goal being his own personal gain. That's why he married the Frey girl, too - he was offered her weight in gold (and so picked the fattest Frey daughter), and also assumed that he was marrying into the Northern royal family, before Robb made his mistake with Jayne Westerling.
Wed a Frey but don't consummate the marriage (a young girl, so non-consummation could be explained) and bring the girl along, separate her and as many of her relations from her family as possible. Maintain a loyalist at the Twins to keep Lord Walder apprised of the war's progress while simultaneously serving as a House Stark spy. The fiancee could be renounced at a later date.
It has always bothered me how critical people are of Rob's decision to marry Jane Westerling. GRR Martin had explicitely set up Walder Fray as "The late Lord Fray" - opportunistic immoral man on the lookout to join the stronger side. He was always a weasel. Rob breaking his vows was just a pretext. The betreyal was always coming.
Well he might have valued being married into potentially the next royal family as more valuable than being lord of river run. But being married into the king’s uncle, on his mothers side? Nah.
It's not betrayal big 'B' The Lannister family is the most powerful in Westeros. Small families do what they're told, OR ELSE. Living at the whim of those more powerful tends to make people insecure and cruel.
When Arya's at Harrenhal, she sees two Freys ride up and pay the ransom of four other Freys (including one bastard) held at Harrenhal, with a chest full of gold. In contrast, no-one comes to pay the ransom of any captured Northern lords. Given his general character and how many children and grandchildren he has, I doubt Walder would bother with a ransom payment, except as a cover story for two envoys sent to establish a line of communication with Tywin. The chapters aren't always in strict chronological order (even before the Feast/Dance split), but it's likely Walder Frey was hedging his bets (if not committing outright to betrayal) before Theon even takes Winterfell.
Catelyn let Robb down on several occasions: 1) She started the war too soon. In KL Ned commanded her to go home, secretly tell his bannermen to prepare for war, and keep Theon close. She never did any of that. Instead, she seized Tyrion when none of the preparation was secured. 2) Later, she had a chance to tell Robb it was his father's last words to her: Keep Theon close. Robb would have listened. Instead, she never mentioned it was Ned's instruction. She keeps talking passive-aggressive to Robb and he gets angry. And the only thing she thinks of is how miserable she is, being a woman and a mother. She's that self-centred. 3) She failed at negotiations with Walder Frey. He was he father's bannerman, so she gave him too much. But even so, she didn't insist upon immediate marriage between Robb and a Frey girl. She knew from her own experience how war makes it difficult for men to remain loyal, and Robb was even younger than Ned. She should have wedded Robb right there and then, to secure his alliance with the Freys. 4) She released Jaime. A pointless move from every aspect. He would be recaptured or killed on his way to KL anyway. But she could not stay still if there was a chance for some drama. 5) Finally, she was suspecting Walder Frey to kill them all the way to the Twins! She thought about it for days! And instead of keeping Robb out of the Twins, she just goes on with the visit, meanwhile antagonising Edmure and Robb alike.
Despite not being the biggest fan of Catelyn Stark, there are some points objectively wrong. She was vehemently opposed to Theon being sent to treat with Balon. Walder Frey was in a position of advantage during the negotiations (he knew Robb could not storm the castle, he was a rebel to the crown so Walder would have Lannister's gratitude if he refused him, and Frey were not Robb Bannerman). On the other hand, Robb needed desperately to pass the gates and needed all the men he could assemble to even Tywin's numbers. Knowing how Lord Frey is, obviously he would squeeze the most he can to give them crossing of the Twins. About the suspicion, even Robb had, but what else could they do? They needed to cross the Twins to go North and after Karstark's abandonment, they needed every man they could get. Robb knew he had to humble himself to the Freys(prideful and despicable man) to have their support. Catelyn made some foolish mistakes, like Tyrion's capture and freeing Jaime. But so did Robb, and it was not their fault they had treacherous bannerman like Freys and Boltons. The major problem with Robb as King in the North, was Frey broking guest right(a deeply sacred thing in Westeros culture)
@@MiguelCruz-cz2fu As for Theon the original commenter points out that Catelyn doesn't tell Robb that it was Ned's instruction to keep Theon close, not just hers. Robb evidently thought her advice was valuable, but it's obvious he would have respected his father's military expertise more than his mother's. Making it clear it was Ned's instruction almost certainly would have convinced him. And while yes, Robb made a huge blunder by marrying Jeyne Westerling, I think you're underselling Catelyn's mistakes. Taking Tyrion was utterly pointless and started the war, and freeing Jaime was utterly pointless and lost them the war. She literally got Ned and Robb killed and Sansa captured. Ned, Sansa and Arya would have been safe so long as there wasn't open conflict and Robb was safe from Tywin's assassins so long as Jaime was in his custody. In literally every conceivable way, Catelyn ruined everything for everyone.
@@MiguelCruz-cz2fu As for keeping Theon close - Catelyn didn't say it was Ned's last instruction. If she stopped pitying helself for a moment, she'd understand that was a sure way to make Robb listen. As for negotiation with Frey, Catelyn approached it with contempt and didn't even think about the situation from her counterpart's perspective. She was not just asking for a bridge. She was asking Frey to rebel against the crown. Lord Walder put everything at stake. And he would become a long-term ally. So the marriage pact was as important to Frey as to Stark. But only one marriage. She should have explained to Walder Frey that she needs her other children to have as many marriage alliances as possible. It reduces the chance of Robb's defeat, and Robb's success in the rebellion means House Frey prospers as well. Frey's fate is now tied to Stark's and Lord Walder couldn't beat that logic. Another important thing: Catelyn should have offered the Freys a post on Robb's council, but the main thing is that the post sounds great, for Frey's reputation. But that required that Catelyn get rid of her irrational contempt for Frey and learn a bit of empathy. Of course, offer Walder to marry a few of his offspring to other Stark bannerman, and offer more opportunities for wards, not just two boys in Winterfell. The Freys should have been tied to many houses in the North. Did Catelyn think about all this? Hell no. She scolded Walder Frey and asked for the pass. That's it! Such a poor negotiation strategy. Worst thing, she negotiated to postpone the marriage until after the war, despite saying herself that "Frey need help in keeping faith". Unfortunately, Catelyn rarely practiced what she preached.
@@MiguelCruz-cz2fu Agreed on the negotiations part, true that Freys had huge leverage, a master negotiator could land a better deal but she did her best, also they had no time for weddings as the clock was ticking. She was right about 2 things, Theon should never go the Iron Islands and keeping greywind close no matter what, but she failed to convey both of these points.Overall though her contribution was extremely negetive, freys and boltons decided to act after jaime was released, the final nail in Robbs coffin.
That's why George RR Martin is a genius at story telling. He knows you want Robb, Eddard, etc to live. When I was reading the books a decade ago, even when Bran fell out of the tower after the 80th page you couldn't believe he would kill off a child so soon. (Obviously he did not die)
The anchor around Robb's neck was always Riverrun. Look at the map. It's an overextension, from any direction. If Robb wanted to be king in the North, he would have taken Moat Cailin, maybe the Twins for good measure. But nobody was ever going to secure the Riverlands. It's good writing on GRRM's part, having Robb's mother be a Tully, makes for a powderkeg
He could have won pretty easily ,after he captured Jaime he has 32k men vs Tywin 20k , why he didn't march to KL would remain a mistery , and by mistery I mean plot
@@flavius5722 Robb would have needed to take Harrenhal to reach KL, and he'd probably have to take it before the second Lannister army came up from the Westerlands.
@@trajanthegreat2928 The second Lannisters " army " its a sad joke , 8k peasents with 0 training , that is why they get so easily defeated, not even a single survivor , it would had taken half a year for Stafford to turn them in a regular force , before he even start marching trow Riverlands , not that he can advance without fighting his way trow all the castles and the brotherhood without baners Tywin cant afford to hide in a ruin castle by a 15 years old ,but even if he does thats better because that way Robb will had him traped inside , while the Baratheons are marching towards KL Far better than the plot armour of going to the Westerlands
Love the art towards the beginning from the ASOIAF miniatures game! Just got started with a work friend and can't wait to take down his Starks with my Lannister battalion. 🦁
Robb had no spies in Kings landing. If he knew about the truth that Arya escaped and Sansa betrayed her family, he can kill Jaime and send his head to Kings Landing. Tywin will be furious and he may assemble an army and attack north. Without Tywin, Cersie's misrule and her stupid plans make tyrells enemies. Robb can stand in the north and try an alliance with Dorne. But the important factor o Robb's failure was the defeat of Stannis at Blackwater.
Just like with Tywin, one of Robb’s biggest mistakes was seeing people like pawns on the chessboard, failing to see their unpredictability and rashness. That’s the X factor they couldn’t predict for, the unpredictability and rashness of human nature. For Tywin, it was the acting out of his children. He saw them as pawns of advance House Lannister, but Jamie and especially Cersei ruined those plans with their incest affair and the subsequent bastards, to the point that Cersei even aborted the only trueborn child she had with Robert. And Tyrion killed him with the crossbow. If you look at the story as a whole, there seems to be a constant theme of terrible things happening because the young defy their elders and act out. Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jamie, Cersei, Robb, Joffrey, etc.
Hey Robert. Off topic but I was listening to one of you livestreams the other day when you mentioned "Fevre Dream" calling it a book about "Vampires, on paddle boats, in the deep south, by GRRM". I bought it the next morning, finished it 3 days later and now have 3 of my co-workers reading it as well. Phenomenal book, as you said it was. I doubt there'd be a good reason or a neat way to do it but id love to see something about it on here eventually. Maybe a Halloween video. But thats just a fever dream I'm sure. Keep up with the great videos!
I think one of his early mistakes was to accept the title of the King in the North & King of the Trident which put him in an opposition to the Baratheon brothers, especially Stannis. His claim to kinghsip over the North put him at odds with those claiming kinghsip to all of Seven Kingdoms, even if they were also fighting the Lannisters. He should remain just the Warden of the North after Ned's death imo & submit himself to Stannis, especially after Renly's death. Overall Robb & Stannis are my favourite characters in ASOIAF.
9:37 Not to mention that defending Riverrun by having his forces wait across the river to battle the Lannister forces while they're crossing is a very strong position and perfectly competent interpretation of "defend Riverrun"
Great vid as always IDG. Robb was very much a Grey Wind in his own right , he blew strong and fierce but eventually died out. There is a what could have been at work with Robb , had certain decisions been altered or factors / events beyond his control went a bit differently. For such a young wolf he did very well ; his military prowess, ally / force building & maturity all quite impressive. But in several ways he was out of his depth. Ned was understandably an isolationist with his own children ; so they were not as worldly or had much of a wide network. Compare that to Tywin's diplomatic and deal making abilities , Robb was well outclassed. Understandably so , given Robb's more insular existence up to then and the age / experience disparity. Also, not being more tactically clear with Edmure and having an internal saboteur like Roose as a key cog both yielded quite disastrous results. Alienating the Karstarks not helpful either. And yes Robb's honorable dutiful side did ultimately get the best of him. Robb was taken out by treachery, that he partly brought on himself. RS did make a fatal error by reneging on his Frey match in favor of marrying Jeyne Westerling. Robb certainly allowed his honor to get the best of him , doing so hastened his demise. Not defending or absolving that choice but i do think much of the circumstances often overlooked. Lets not forget he was still very young (16) - father dead , thrust into massive responsibility at that young age , literally at war etc. RS' siblings either presumed dead , missing or in Sansa's case with the enemy. That is a considerable amount of turmoil and trauma. On top of that he was also physically wounded , which Jeyne was helping nurse RS back to health. JW likely drugged Robb as well. Robb messed up for sure , literally a fatal error but he was also a very young man & imo very much taken advantage of at arguably his most emotionally , mentally and physically vulnerable.
He's only **fifteen** when Catelyn goes to treat with Renly and Stannis, though he might be sixteen when he dies. Obviously he has Catelyn's guidance, and the counsel of his vassal lords (for what that's worth), but he handles himself admirably for much of the war of five kings. Cat favourably compares his maturity with the various "knights of summer" of Renly's court, some of whom are 21 or older.
@@wereoctopus i agree , i think he does incredibly well ; shows great military prowess , tactical thinking , maturity and able to present himself as a figure to rally around. His influence was keenly felt by a great many. And given the circumstances , dealing with all the turmoil and trauma at such a young age and from a somewhat insular upbringing no less ; he does very well on numerous fronts. Really a few tweaks with key decisions & certain factors outside of his control ; things could have went very differently. RS does strike me as very mature and precocious for such a young person. Though I still i think his age is pertinent. Impressive how well he does and quality he shows at that age. But also do have to keep in mind his age with what he was dealing with. Thrust into massive responsibility , a crazy amount of challenges , turmoil and trauma for still quite a young person. I think it at least partly contributed to being taken advantage of by JW. Also, he is generally up against some very cunning experienced opponents. And still makes a very good account of himself overall. I admire Robb a lot and really such a heart wrenching moment his death / the manner of it. GRRM likes to rip our hearts out quite often , especially around characters we are really rooting for.
I completely agree Andrew , for some reason with Robb his trauma / what he was dealing with tends to be somewhat overlooked compared to other characters. He tends to get the "he's an idiot" / look at this blunder so casually. Especially with the Jeyne Westerling situation in the way you put it. Hardly just a rash idiotic moment / lapse. There was a lot more going on and a lot he had to navigate in not anywhere near his strongest state of mind or body at the time.
@@AlexBB77 I think part of why he's judged too harshly is that he was aged up in the show. Let's face it, though Richard Madden did a fantastic job in the role, and could look very vulnerable at times, he just didn't look like a 15 yr old boy, and thus doesn't get as much sympathy. And that leads to another factor - stupid patriarchal gender roles and norms, where a young man is often granted much less emotional support, and seldom allowed to make mistakes because of trauma, stress, or emotion, unlike a woman of the same age; ie Dany. Robb's still a kid, and should be forgiven a normal moment of weakness. He did a whole lot better in his situation, while under more pressure than many adults would be able to manage, than most 15 yr olds would be capable of! These double standards are also why I can't stand the hate the Catelyn gets from a certain segment of readers/viewers for making some perfectly human decisions and actions for the sake of protecting her family, without the knowledge of distant events or hindsight that we the readers have. Ned made a hell of a lot of mistakes too, but is more or less universally loved. He has his flaws, but they're usually ignored or forgiven. I certainly don't entirely blame him for his mistakes, or at least I understand the reasons behind his actions. Everyone deserves empathy. Except for Walder Frey. He just sucks.
Thanks a bunch for pointing this out! I was about to do it myself. :D Drives me nuts when people overlook this. Robb didn't marry for love, or because he was just thinking with his d***, he was in a hugely vulnerable position when what happened happened.
I don't think Robb chose love over duty, at least not in the books. He chose Jeyne's honor over his own after having lain with her when hearing the news of his brothers.
Robb was a brilliant army commander on the tactical and operational levels, but he simply didn't have much skill on the wider strategic and diplomatic levels. Every campaign he personally fought was successful in the immediate term, but he just never had any clear plan for how to end the war. Part of that was some mistakes of his own, and part of that was the situation changing unexpectedly. A key factor, though, was that being crowned king narrowed his diplomatic options considerably. Any claimant to the Iron Throne he might ally with would require his submission, while his lords expected him to uphold their newfound independence, and while holding the North alone might have been possible, the addition of the Riverlands to his "realm" made it completely indefensible. Plus, of course, the obvious blunder of not telling Edmure the whole plan. It's a pretty classic mistake for a commander to make: not telling your subordinate(s) everything but expecting them to know exactly what you want them to do, then running into problems when they do something unexpected.
I think the biggest issue that Robb had going against him was his age and inexperience. He was only 15 when he died, and 14 when he called the northern banners. He'd never led an army before, or even fought in a real battle. And it's clear that he had far more training in warfare than in diplomacy, though being a kid with a gift for tactics, he still should have had time to learn the diplomatic side of ruling if circumstances hadn't forced him into his position. He would probably have been a great leader in time, but time was the one thing he didn't have.
@@thing_under_the_stairs Very true. He was thrust into a situation that neither he nor most people his age would have been prepared for. It's honestly more surprising that he was so skilled a military commander at that age than it is that he was a poor diplomat and politician.
@@Wolfeson28 I've always considered Robb Stark to be something of a tactical prodigy. He may have lost the war, but he won every battle that he commanded, and that's more than impressive for a 14 yr old with no previous field experience. Hell, in his very first real battle he captured Jaime Lannister, possibly the most skilled fighter of their time, mostly through clever tactics. If you also look at Jon's skill as a swordsman, it's clear that Ned taught his boys well. Too bad Ned wasn't that good at playing politics.
Had Robb not been crowned king then he certainly has the power to act as Kingmaker. Would he have allied with Stannis for example? It is possible, and Stannis is probably the one most likely to help the North get justice (plus he has the legal right to the throne). That changes the strategic situation considerably. However they have many of the same personal problems as each other, Robb just being more personable than Stannis. Honestly Robbs biggest mistake was sending Theon to see his dad. The image of losing his homeland, and the knock on effects on his northern lords, is incalculable.
na, Robb was a stratrgist. he understood what to do. it's just so much went wrong. securing his kingdpom was his goal. killing or capturing Tywin would have resolved some major aspects of the war. but his allies plotted against him or undermined him or failed. cat fails to bring an ally to the table sets his prisoners free or loses them she is responsible fir the loss of the karstarks. theon is recognized as a fellow prince buth throws it all away to prove himself to Balon. Edmure violates cleart orders and conducts a private war with Tywin. the vale wants to join but are being lled by a mad woman who wont offer men or passage north. the freys get cold feet and abandon robb when stannis is defeated at blackwater. Bolton joins in with the freys while the tyrells who could have been allies join joffrey.
Been subbed and watching you for years now. And one thing I’ve always appreciated is that you never ask people to subscribe. You simply let us know what you do and leave it to our volition. Small but appreciated by me. Now it’s time to grab some popcorn and enjoy the show🙂
A lot of his mistakes are because he was young and inexperienced and didn't have the best advisers. That and a good deal of act of plot level blunders. Like he gets a lot of grief for forsaking his vows and wedding Jeyne Westerling, but idk he's a 14 year old boy he probably thought she was hot. So where's his advisers to tell him he's fucking up? His mother gives him shit for it later, but she basically unilaterally released Jaime from captivity which weakened their position considerably. Robb had a lot thrown onto his shoulders like being made King in the North. It's a wonder he did as well as he did.
Have you ever considered covering the Brandon Sanderson Cosmere books? Stormlight, Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, etc.? I love your fantasy centric content and I feel like the Cosmere community would benefit from your perspective and your quality videos!
It’s interesting. When Robb died they declared Tywin the Victor, but they don’t realise that they fall short where Tywin does. The Egotistical perspective is that one beats the other when the other dies. The principled perspective is that one beats the other when the principle is exhausted. Robb Starks lives on, the loyalty he won has yet to have a say. That’s the power of the honourable man over the cynical. The cynical practical man can defeat the honourable idealistic man in the short term, but in making the honourable man a martyr you’ve created an ideal that cannot be destroyed only exhausted. Robb is a martyr now, he’s an ideal. Northern Idealists will fight and die for anyone who has the leverage to weild those principles. They are extremists for all intents and purposes and thats incredibly fucking dangerous as the cyvasse board stands. Nobody else has that level of Morale buff.
A very fine video! One of the best videos in weeks! This shone a light on situations and strategies that were difficult to see clearly in the books, just due to all the different things going on from all angles with all the POV characters. Despite his failures, I have even more respect for Robb than I did before. The guy was a teenage werewolf!
I think timing with Tywin mattered a whole lot. Tywin's army made it just in time. If he's held up even 4 hours longer, then he's gotta storm Kings Landing instead of taking Stannis by suprise from behind. Every single hour changes the entire War up until that point, imo.
Well Stannis had the right strategy to take the capital and it was about to fall, it’s just timing, I feel like though Tyrion is a good commander as he bought time, Tyrion is a very underrated character for being a general, so is Edmure
@@maxtomlinson8134 i agree, I'm only stating that IDG saying that what Edmure did to Tywin didn't matter bc" the messenger would have caught up to him eventually anyway" is off bc if Tywin is delayed by even 12 hours, Stannis wins the Battle of Kings Landing, or at the very least, is inside of it and Tywin would no longer have the suprise of catching Stannis from behind. Tywin really did make it right at the last moment. So any delay would change the outcome. Maybe Tywin could have taken the city back from Stannis, but by the time he does, Joffery would have been dead. Cersei, too, since she had plans to be killed by Ser Payne the moment Stannis took the city. It def mattered that Edmure won the battle against Tywin. Which is just great writing. A victory becoming a defeat in the long run is very poetic of GRRM.
Another detail that might be important is that there already is snow in the north when Robert and Ned leave for King's Landing. It's quite possible that Robb counted on winter to come and make the north impossible to attack and use this time to ask his Arryn aunt to make an alliance. Probably not said but it might have been in his head or in some of his bannermen. And from what we see, the Royces wanted to help him Having winter on westeros for a some years might force the lannister to stay in their castle.
Robb's mistake was being crowned King in the North. If the Northern lords would have just shut up, then he should have bent the knee to Stannis, the rightful King together they could have completely annihilated the Lannisters. The reality is that the real blow dealt to the Starks was when Stannis lost the Blackwater; because this allowed the Lannisters to put their full attention to the Northern war. Perhaps the most ideal would have been if Renly recognized Stannis's claim and thus creating a three way alliance between Stannis, Renly, and Robb. Robb and Renly would have balanced Stannis's worst impulses and he would have made a great king.
Apart from Mel's curse I don't see how Robb siding with Stannis changes anything. If he'd marched on KL, they both would face the Lannister-Tyrell host and would probably lose against such numbers, or he'd just do what he tried in cannon: leading Tywin on a merry chase through the Westerlands and away from KL
@@capricornyearofthetiger well you said Robb's mistake, or rather his bannermen's was being crowned. If the Baratheon's decide to be less pig headed it would make a huge difference but that's beyond Robb's influence
Even worse than accepting a crown was relenting to be crowned King in the North _and_ of the Riverlands. Perhaps Robb needed to make gestures towards northern independence to keep his lords away from their homes and harvests after the original objective of the war was rendered moot by Ned's execution. But the Riverlands? Famously unholdable, a breadbasket of the seven kingdoms, and currently ravaged by war; How was Robb ever to benefit from this added encumbrance? House Tully was already at war with the crown, no extra finessing needed there... Perhaps Stannis could have been persuaded to let 'King in the North' slide, as a gloss on the established title of Warden - The North was a nation unto itself in all but name anyway - but even Renly let alone his less obliging brother, could hardly be expected to let _two_ of his eight prospective dominions lie under the rule of another - and create a prospective rival into the bargain.
OK, because in this scenario Renly backs his brother doesn't die by shadow baby, the brothers in turn enter into an alliance with Robb there would have been no Lannister-Tyrell alliance because the Reach is still with Renly who's supporting Stannis. @@simontaylor2143
I disagree about Jeyne Westerling -- while Robb is clearly choosing between love and duty when choosing to marry her TV show counterpart, in the books he's choosing between different kinds of duty. He's distraught after receiving news of his younger brothers' apparent death, and in that moment of vulnerability, he and Jeyne have sex. As she's the daughter of a (minor) lord, he thus feels duty-bound to marry her, even though it means breaking his word to Walter Frey. (I don't know if he would have acted the same way if Jeyne were a commoner. Probably not -- this is a feudal patriarchy after all) Or at least, that seems the most likely reading. We never get a point-of-view chapter with Robb, only with Cat reacting to Robb's decisions. Perhaps Cat's own experiences (her betrothal to Brandon Stark transferring to Ned after the Targaryens murder him, the never-quite-healed rift caused by Ned's seeming infidelity and raising Jon Snow at Winterfell) colour her own perceptions of Robb's actions.
I think this understates Edmure's mistake. Once Tywin is across the Red Fork, it becomes more likely that he'll press on west even if he does get news of Renly's death, rather than fight his way back over the Red Fork to reach another uncertain battle at King's Landing. Even if Edmure should have been better informed, it's still insubordination for him to exceed his orders. Do you think Stannis would have put up with that?
I don’t see how it was a mistake, because Robb’s army would have been destroyed by Tywin if we look at the context (Tywin’s army is four times larger and mostly on foot with a lot of cavalry, as opposed to the stark host which is all cavalry, furthermore they’re in westerlands with no supply to speak of or any local support, as for the Lannister’s they do they know the terrain and their people can provide intelligence and seek refuge from the Starks) Robb persumes he will ambush them and destroy it entirely. Which I heavily doubt if anything I see Robb losing his army and maybe his life being trapped in the westerlands
@@maxtomlinson8134 Yours sounds like a third view, different from both mine and InDeepGeek's video. Do you at least agree crossing the Red Fork made Tywin less likely to turn back again to reach King's Landing?
Like Sun Tzu says, when it comes to miscommunication, the blame always rests on the shoulders of the one giving the orders Like you said we didn't actually see the scene, but i just don't understand why they couldn't just tell Edmure the plan? I know he's not the brightest guy but he seems loyal so why wouldn't they trust him? Did they think he would blab to his riverland buddies and one of them might be a spy/turncloak?
Because it was a messenger, not a face to face meeting. Ravens get shot down, and men waylaid and tortured. If Tywin knew the plan, he could take advantage of that. Better to keep the message simple.
@@shadowofhawk55 okay, that makes sense, then. It's been awhile since I read that section, I was thinking these were orders Robb gave before leaving Riverrun. Thanks for clarifying that
Correction, Roose did not suffer minimal losses against tywin at the green fork. He lost 4-5000 men after he took the night march on Tywin, the lannisters suffered minimal losses and tywin could have easily pursued and destroyed Robb’s eastern front. Truth Roose lost badly on purpose to weaken the forces of other northern houses loyal to the starks while preserving his own strength. I think his intent was to usurp the starks from day one and robb provided the perfect opportunity by giving him command of his infantry. He later send more northmen to their death at Duskendale and ruby ford , all together Robb lost 8-9000 men due to Roose’s scheming. Therefore Robb’s biggest mistake has to be making Roose his second in command.
His biggest weakness is that George Martin wanted him to fail to move the story along. Consider the situation before Theon stabs them in the back, but after, the North crushes 3 separate Lanister armies. Would any *sane* pirate choose to attack the North at that point when you have the richest kingdom completely unguarded while proclaiming your independence? Why? The North has way less things to steal and its richest city is on the other side of the continent. Its capital is far inland. There is literally nothing to take on the West coast. Compare that to Westerlands - all the gold mines are near the coast as is the richest city that now has almost no troops left in it.
Catelyn freeing Jaime is ultimately what opens Rob up to something like the Red Wedding. Tywin would never have supported something like that, if there was a risk that his son would be killed in retaliation.
Everybody always shit on Robb for his decisions, but I think Cat's decision to set Jaime free has an equal weight in blame. At least Robb was a teenager.
Robb was the standard fairy tale Prince character. In most books, he would have been the main character, but that is what was his failing. Robb and Ned could never see past honor and duty to be the kind of duplicitous you would have to be in order to survive the political game with more ruthless players.
Make a video about the theory or possibility of Robb Stark being resurrected by Lady Stoneheart! Imagine Robb coming back for vengance as a resurrected mutant with Grey Wind's head.
Edmure is the Lord of Riverrun he cannot be left out in major military strategies that occur on his lands. Brynden and Robb were at fault for leaving Edmure in the dark
There was no bigger mistake than marrying Jeyne Westerling. Breaking faith with his own bannermen undermined Robb in so many ways. #2 was easily killing Rickard Karstark, who he could've just held prisoner for the rest of the war. No matter what your strategy is you can't win a war without a united army.
Bigger mistakes than letting Theon go, when on the other hand the *late* Lord Frey had never been a reliable bannerman? Aren't kings always "Protector of the Realm"? What does it look like when the king cannot even protect his own keep?
@@TV-ge3uj Actually yes. Robb had a plan to retake the North which could've worked if he hadn't been killed at The Twins, which wouldn't have happened if he hadn't crossed Frey. Lord Frey is by no means honorable, but he is pragmatic. As long as Robb's victory meant the Frey's would be part of a new royal family Walder would've stayed loyal out of sheer self interest. But once Robb took that prospect out of the equation, loyalty was no longer in Frey's best interest. And one more thing about the Greyjoys. Their hold on the North was always tenuous, as their losses to the Boltons and Stannis proved. So if Robb lived long enough he definitely could've beat them. So while trusting Theon was a huge mistake, it was one Robb could've recovered from. Unlike alienating his own bannermen.
@@thelateescapist8266 There is still Roose Bolton, who was convinced (after the Battle of the Blackwater) that Robbs's campaign was doomed and who held too much of Robb's trust. This is at least an "Otto Hightower" situation, even with the Freys still loyal.
@@TV-ge3uj I never said marrying Jeyne was Robb's only mistake, just his biggest. By the time the Blackwater was fought Robb had already lost the support of the Frey's, who Bolton had also allied himself with through marriage, and the Lannisters gained the support of the Tyrells. So the odds were stacking up against Robb. Like Frey Bolton acted primarily in his own interest. And if Robb had maintained the support of all his other bannermen Bolton might not have betrayed him. And even if he had that betrayal could not have been fatal without the participation of the Freys.
Robb didn't choose love over duty, GRRM has explicitly said that Robb/Jeyne is not a love story. The bitter irony is that he chose one duty over another. He had slept with her, so he had to marry her. It's a thing he learned from Ned and Jon. He couldn't stomach the idea of fathering a bastard, condemning Jeyne to dishonor, his child to a life as a bastard, and his future Frey wife to having to go through the same thing as Catelyn.
Imagine if Roose had won that first battle. In one fell swoop, the armies of the North could have captured or killed Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Tywin Lannister, the Mountain, and more. They would have taking significant land, taken Riverrun, and severely weakened the Westerland's leadership. King's Landing would be in chaos, with no Tyrion or Tywin to guide it, and eventually taken by Stannis Baratheon. The Tyrell's wouldn't have sided with the Lannisters, may have sided with Stannis or remained neutral or even declared independence. The North would have stood a better chance at taking the Westerlands and Casterly Rock. However, the Ironborn would have probably still attacked the North, and Ramsey may have still done what he did, Roose would be even more powerful after winning such a battle, and he'd have the head of house Lannister in his custody. Roose could have had leverage on everyone, offering them Tywin for an alliance. I suppose it would have probably still spelt the end for the Lannisters, but whether it would spell the end for the Starks would still come down to if Robb wed Jeyne.
Not telling Edmure is an indefensible blunder though. Cat briefly thinks about how Edmure is already chomping at the bit to prove himself as lord of Riverrun even while Hoster yet lives. If not Robb, Cat certainly should have realised that Edmure would be seeking a great victory to prove to the famously fickle River Lords that he could hack it. Of course he would sieze an opportunity to really take it to the Lannisters. Robb should have identified Edmure as a firebrandt and clearly lain down his plans and the need for Edmure to stay his hand in the defence of Riverrun
A blunder, certainly, but I'd say an understandable one. Commanders typically work on a 'need to know' basis - to prevent information falling into enemy hands, and to reduce the risk of embarrassment should their plans need amending or scrapping entirely. A more experienced commander than Robb would have spotted the potential problem though, I agree, and boy howdy did he pay for it.
@@PantomimeHorse Yeah that's a good point especially considering Tywin undoubtedly had spies reporting to him. Ultimately it was a judgement call between greater clarity of strategy and maintaining security. It would have been so difficult to decide
Robb didn't pick "love over duty". He picked her honor over his. He didn't know Jeyne well enough to love her. Also, he was probably under the influence of a substance that clouded his good judgment. Jeyne's maternal line leads back to Maggy the Frog who knew how to brew love potions.
I like that you cut Edmure some slack, but the plan could definitely have worked. If Edmure had moved to stop Tywin from crossing the river, then feigned a retreat back to Riverrun, Tywin would have believed Edmure to have been cowed and continued his march to engage Robb's cavalry. But then Edmure could have doubled back, now defending the river crossing but from the OTHER side. Then he could actually have delayed Tywin long enough to stop him marching back to King's Landing. Evidently Edmure was capable of holding the crossing despite inferior numbers, although it's likely he'd have been more cautious in this scenario since retreating to Riverrun was no longer an option, so maybe that caution tips the scales. However, Robb's infantry was on the same side of the river as Edmure now. Should Edmure believe Tywin is going to break through his defences, he could have retreated, heading for Robb's infantry. Meanwhile that infantry force led by Roose Bolton would be taking Harrenhal, meaning Edmure part of the way would have regained a safe haven to fall back to if Tywin chose to chase him all the way. But he wouldn't. Partway through he'd find out Stannis had taken King's Landing. If he chases Edmure, he's going to be besieging Harrenhal, a formidable castle with a very large army inside, and all of Robb's cavalry bearing down on him. Given Robb's cavalry could move faster than Tywin's host, they'd be free to use hit and run tactics on Tywin for the entire siege, and then there's the possibility Stannis would join the fray, making Tywin entirely surrounded. He wouldn't risk it. He'd be forced to fall back to the Westerlands. He probably wouldn't even be able to take Riverrun, since despite its massively depleted forces with Edmure away, Robb could have outpaced Tywin and reinforced it. All that was needed was to include Edmure in the plan, and not just tell him to hold Riverrun, but make his army a crucial part of the deception. They could have made a show of accidentally overplaying their hand only to dupe Tywin for the second time after Whispering Wood.
Sorry it's unrelated, but I still love how Stannis killing Renly backfired hard on him. Had he not killed Renly, Tywin wouldn't have had the Tyrel army to defend King's landing with. Like literally the first person everyone should have ganged up on at the start was Joffrey, after then deal with the succession/succession debates. Stannis taking out Renly first basically gave the war to Tywin.
I like the reference to A Cunning Plan. The Blackadder character, Baldrick, was known for his cunning plans, but they often proved to be very stupid. GRRM seems also to be aware of this character, as he had the Greenhand King of the Reach, known as 'Baldrick the Cunning' deal with the invading Andels by luring them away from their leaders with food and wine and gifts, and making them loyal to him, then intermarrying with them until the Kingdom of the Reach was all one people under the Gardener Kings.
Choosing love over duty …. That’s wrong Rob supposedly took Jane maidenhead … with the help of her mom who has relation to Maggie the frog. Supposedly a potion was given to rob as he healed so that he would make that mistake … this was hinted at Robb now had the duty to marry Jane, or so his honor told him that …
Robb should have exchanged jamie for sansa . Then quickly make an alliance with the Tyrrells with sansa being bethroted to willas. Though im not sure the tyrells would nessecarilly accept as they wanted to be kings of the 7 kingdoms
Catelyn stark lost the war. Arrested tyrion too early, trusted littlefinger too much and therefore leading ned to trust him too, crucial in his own arrest. And unforgivably, setting jamie lannister free, jesus christ how dumb can you get?
Robb made three major mistakes: 1. not telling Edmure about his plan for Tywin. He specifically told Edmure to hold Riverrun. How should he know the red Fork was not part of that order? It was not a bad idea to keep tywin away from riverun if you want to protect it. 2. marrying Jeyne Westerling. It was because he was 15 - I know - but it broke his alliance with the Frey and it is not good for a king to not stay true to your word. How could people trust a king who does that? 3. executing Rickard Karstark. If bloodraven was sent to the wall why kill Karstark? The Wall could use strong man and it would be a punishment fitting the crime. If he refused you could still hold him as a prisoner to secure the loyalty of house Karstark.
I agree with reason 2 and 3 but not 1, he should made sure Jamie wasn’t able to escape as a barging chip to get back Sansa, and threaten if his sister isn’t returned safely, he will kill Jamie, to send a message
Robs a lot like his Granduncle in many ways, a great commander, but his downfall had to do with marriage, in the Blackfishes case its not getting married, in Robbs marrying the wrong person. Was the Blackfish gay? Was he A-sexual? Or was he in love with someone that his brother as head of their house did not allow him to marry so he never married out of protest? That would actually make a great video, one of my favourite characters from the book series is the Black Fish.
@@gothicusmaximus5697 yeah thats what is said but thats bull. Plenty of people fuck and don't have to get married. He was a king and decided he could do what he wanted. If he was worried about her honor he wouldn't have slept with her.
Robb marrying for love was how it was portrayed in the show. In the books. Robb had taken a wound at the time he learned of his brothers' seeming deaths. And in a fit of grief. And Jeyne Westerling tending to his wounds and offering comfort. Robb slept with her. And on the morrow. In an effort to preserve her honor, married her. So in the books, he breaks his marriage pact with the Freys for honor. Not love.
10:06 honestly, I feel like he wouldn’t have received word in time like the blackfish says. Because, if Tywin crosses the red fork and then learns about the situation with Stannis and the Tyrells he would then have to cross back across it where Edmure could meet him and prevent a crossing. That’s assuming edmure doesn’t harass Tywin the whole way to the westerlands and prevents any word from reaching him
There was a better play he could have done with Theon, which is to not send him back to Pyke himself but instead send an emissary to Pyke saying, "Hey! Your son is fighting with us against the Lannisters--your favorite people to burn the ships of! And you know what? He's kicking ass and paying the iron price all over the place! Would you like to send some troops for him to command? After the war is over, we'll send him back to you! And hey, why not have a fun time burning Lannisport? In fact, we wouldn't hate it if you wanted to reave all up and down the Westerlands (south of the Riverlands)!" Robb could have also promised that the Iron Islands would once again be independent after the war--and why not promise that? There's probably nothing Robb could do, if he DID win independence for the North and the Riverlands, to stop the Ironborn from attempting to go solo. Robb and his allies don't have a major naval force to raid the Iron Islands with if they misbehave. So he might as well offer independence to the Ironborn as a plea for their help, rather than suffer it anyway, as a loss of face, after the war. Now, this would probably piss off some Tully vassals in the Riverlands, who were raided during Greyjoy's Rebellion. So Robb should probably keep this emissary's message a secret until the war is winding down. And, of course, Robb doesn't actually have the power to stop Stannis or Renly from retaking the Iron Islands after either of them retakes the main part of Westeros, and I think Balon knows this. Still, I think this combination of "I give you leave to reave!" and "I have put your son in a position of military strength and honor and would love him to lead some Ironborn as well" might just win over Balon to his cause. Balon totally hates Ned Stark for being one of his chief humiliators, who helped burn Lordsport and made him bend the knee. But he might be begrudgingly willing to see his son Robb as a chance for better relations ahead if Robb treats him with respect, sends him an emissary (not just a raven), and leads with "I just gave your son some really great honors" along with "I give you carte blanche to pay the iron price for a bunch of rich bitches that you hate anyway." And while Balon may guffaw at the idea that Robb is "giving him" his independence, he will at least respect that Robb acknowledges the Iron Islands as its own thing. Worst case scenario? Balon may refuse Robb's call for assistance in the Riverlands, but without Theon returned, Balon is less likely to attack the North. He also will have less reason to attack the North, since he now knows he won't have to terrorize them to get them to respect an independence claim. And even without an official alliance, Balon is likely to see the value in Robb's suggestion and raid Lannisport anyway. Meanwhile Robb, by TRYING to put Theon at the head of an Ironborn contingent, is probably getting Theon to love him even more, setting up brilliant relations with a potential future heir of the Iron Islands.
I think if Tywin makes it back to the west then Robb's plan does work. Stannis takes KL. The timing was so near that him not being close to the river makes him too late to take Stannis flank. Roose moves south and cuts Tywin's late advance to KL off or catches him under the walls of the city. If Robb trusted Edmure to know the whole plan I think it works. He could even offer token resistance at the fords but let the bulk of Tywins army advance to the west. Then it's Robb and Stannis treating and I think Robb would put off his crown and go home.
Too many small mistakes led to loosing. He tried to be too much like Ned. And I get it, but even Sansa says to Jon, you can't make same mistakes as father and Robb
Robb's mistakes were compounded by Catlyn not doing what Ned told her to do, or very poorly/half heartedly doing them (she barely tries in attempting to make sure Theon is kept nearby). She also suggests Bolton as a leader over the Greatjon... ya... doesnt go so well that. the videos "why Catlyn is the worst" were pretty compelling. Robb's biggest weakness is his mother... which is to bad. Originally i liked Catlyn, watching the show. Then reading the books... something just felt wrong about her.
@deepgeek, have you read the king killer chronicles by Patrick rothfuss? His third book just came out and the series would make for some excellent content. It seems right up your alley
Had Robb been older and more seasoned things would have gone a bit differently. He was a tactical genius and charismatic but lacked the Diplomatic and Political experience of Tywin. His mother was too focused on her own goals and went behind Robb's back. With more age Robb would have been one of the most formidable players in the Seven Kingdoms.
Here's an odd question: If Robb successfully captured Tywin, would that have changed much? Littlefinger was handling the majority of the negotiations. That marriage was going to happen no matter what. That massive army was going to form, no matter what. (I might he wrong on this one, but the Tyrell/Baratheon/Lannister alliance needed to move with a sense of urgency.) Robb may have an insanely valuable hostage with Tywin Lannister, to be sure. But, he also has lost a massive amount if troops after The Freys and Karstarks left. He's incredibly weak. Even if The Iron Throne sent a quarter of this new army against Robb, he'd be crushed. Maybe holding him hostage will buy some time, but would it be enough for him to actually negotiate some kind of a peace, especially since he's out numbered?
After the battle of the fords , Robb had 32k men , Tywin only 20k at Harrenhal , Renly was still alive back than , the Greyjoy invasion was still months away , he just need to go crushed Tywin , that way he would have never meet Jeyne , so no oath broke , so nothing betwen him and KL , he could have demand his sisters back , and let Stannis take KL The Reach , the Vale and the westerlands will also declare independence
Had a great idea about what I would’ve done! I’m Robb, just found out they killed me father, the king of the North, but in the mid term of things, luck 🍀 has it, I caught Jamie! This is what I would’ve done after that fact! My 2 sisters are that, already slain in my eyes! I have no more keys on getting them back! Jamie is dead, his death is only because of my father’s death! A life for a life! After that, I’d go back to winterfell! Build my house build my lands and build a huge army! Invite the wildlings into the North, sign a treaty with them, give them lands of the lost northern family’s, that passed thru-out the times and the lands that the night watch no longer command, they will rebuild those castles, and tend to the lands in return, they must commit to the king of the North, and in due time, match on to kings landings but while on the move, take over the Freys, take over the iron islands, and the river run! Now that we smashed everything needed, erased the boltons and the freys, nothing stands in a your way and the north has took over 70% of the kings lands, after that. March to castley rock! Take that from the lions, and now the Lannisters only hold kings landing, since Stannis has the island and drorn will not help the lannisters it’s over! Alittle longer time frame has passed, but at least you had a chance to rebuild, Marry, have many many kids to restart the Stark bloodline and you made the North a much better place! Yeah your sisters died, but whom told them to stay in kings landing when they had many opportunities to leave or escape! The only trouble that I for sake is the dragons coming our way and the long night with the night king coming! But if we played our cards right! All the forts along the wall will be built to last / fixed and manned with many thousands of wildings and northern family’s, the Northern lands will be fully engulfed with great families and strong men, if the dragon queens allows us to rule but bend our knee to her in exchange for the north and it to be free, she can kill all the South if she pleases! Let’s just say, if Robb stopped his war the moment he caught Jamie and killed Jamie all of the rest would’ve never happened! And the greyjoys would’ve never burnt down winterfell, and the people we loved, would be alive and in a much better position
Intresting, here is what I would do I'm Robb I just march south to save Riverrun, I did that , I captured Jaime , his two cousins and destroy their army Now I would cut Jaime's hand because he killed ten of my men but I will keep him alive , without a hand he will not try to escape or lets say kill a Karstark boy Now I have 6k man northeners with me , 12k with Roose Bolton but I would gather 15k more rivermen , 11k of my uncle Edmure and 4k more of my new father in law Walder Frey So now I am King in the North / the Trident, and I have 33k men at arms while my last treath Tywin Lannister has only 20k at Harennhal according to my uncle Blackfish and his spies So instead of losing time going to the Westerlands ( why I would do that ,its odd that I just brought this up in the first place) I would go straight to Harrenhall to crush Tywin . I have too many advantages over him : 1) my lords have more experience than the lannisters because they fought in Robert's Rebelion while Tywin didn't 2) My lords know better the terrain of the Trident than the westermens 3) I have a wolfs in my army 4) I have nearly double more man than them So that I do and it was a masterpiece , Tywin and his dog are death , I captured his brother Kevan ,and I even found Arya at Harennhal Now all that I ned to do is to send the head of Tywin to KL and demand my other sister back ,and if they still refuse I will just send Bolton to Duskendale or Rosby to burn it until they dont have a choice Only after that I will send my friend Theon back to the Iron Islands to convince them to also declare independence and maybe attack the Westerlands
Always loved the little detail about Stannis during this time. When he is putting the leaches with King's blood in the fire calling for the death of the usurpers, he paused before saying Robb's name. Not Joffrey, Not even Renly, but Stannis hesitated before naming Robb
In the books does that moment happen before Renly death? Because I know in the show it’s just Balon, Robb and Joff.
But honestly Stannis being at least indirectly responsible for the deaths of all four of the usurpers is too interesting not to think about.
Ancient laws of the land, oaths and loyalties. Promises made. Justice served.
@@striker8961 It was after.
@@striker8961 Davos 4, ASoS. Renly died in the previous book, so there's only 3 leeches, for Joffrey, Balon, and Robb (in that order). He does pause with the third leech before casting it in the brazier and "at last" naming Robb.
It is interesting to think about though -- Balon was almost certainly killed by Euron, and not out of any broken oath (as with Robb) or cosmic justice (as with Joffrey, not that he was murdered for justice's sake). Did the naming of Balon somehow pull Euron back to the Iron Islands sooner than he otherwise planned? If this was the Wheel of Time, you could say the ritual tugged on or rewove threads in the Pattern. ASOIAF has prophecy, foretelling and omens, but it's unclear whether there's some diegetic force or principle analogous to the Pattern.
@@wereoctopus I think it's that Melisandre saw all three deaths in the flames (or at least thought she did lol) and she told Stannis that he had to do the leech ritual to make those visions come to pass, more or less
@@wereoctopus the vagueness of the prophecies makes me think it’s a vision from afar. So only smudges are available. And then we account for the symbolic natures. To my knowledge I don’t think a prophecy is ever untrue but that doesn’t mean peoples free will doesn’t matter.
The Hedge Knight example for instance, Dunk and a dead dragon. Dunk would go on to be surrounded by many dead dragons.
Another factor that may have doomed Robb was his aunt Lysa's inaction. Even though she was regent of the Vale, and many of her bannermen were willing and motivated to join forces with her kinsmen to bring the Lannisters low. Lysa inexplicably chose not to aid her sister and nephew, instead she decided to make the Vale a neutral bystander during the War of the Five Kings. Just imagine how much of a difference it would have made if the lords of the Vale had joined Robb's cause. We're talking about at least 30,000 knights and men at arms. That would have taken the pressure off defending the Riverlands once Robb decided to head back North. Not to mention after the Iron Born had taken Moat Cailin. Instead of trying to retake the North from the Neck where the Iron Born could resist his approach, Robb would of had an easier time by sailing his army from Gulltown, to the Three Sisters and then to White Harbor where Wyman Manderly would have been waiting for him.
There was some part of an explanation here. Lysa was under the influence of little finger, and he was definitly against choosing side. He wanted to wait until a clear winner would emerge, and then use the Vale's army to his advantage. Maybe threaten the remaining army of the victorious to gain more power. The fact that he planned the death of little Robert Aryn and the Vale's line of succession shows that he intended to get rid of Lysa all along.
@MrSebaleme I've always found Littlefingers positioning there quite odd, I agree he was absolutely why the Vale didn't march to Robb, but I can't understand why he'd do that, surely if he could take credit for it, and ensure that Robb has the numbers to take Kings Landing if he wanted to kill Joffrey in retribution then surely Littlefinger would stand to gain a lot, a decapitated House Lanister, a House Stark, Tully and Arynn alliance with him in the centre and, probably most crucially, a wider war for him to exploit
Bronze Yohn clearly showed he was disappointed in her choice not to declare for Robb during the 4th book
Yea a wierd decision for her not to help out her homeland
Robb’s mistake was not telling Edmure that letting Tywin break into the Westerlands was the intention. Sure have some skirmishes but never drive them back, let them get through and then whenever Stannis goes to KL the odds of his winning increase exponentially.
@@Darius-_ Ever heard of retreating?
@@Darius-_ Because Robb's force was all mounted, he could easily avoid any engagement with Tywin that he didn't want. With Tywin moved out of his central position in Harrenhal, Robb could then bring in Roose Bolton with the rest of his forces, and potentially even strike a deal with Stannis when he takes King's Landing (which he would surely have done if Tywin hadn't gotten there, for all of Tyrion's efforts). At that point, Robb would have enough forces to overwhelm Tywin or force him to surrender.
@@Darius-_ He doesn't need to encircle him, he needs him in Westerlands that's all, for as long as he is preoccupied there, he can't help lift the siege of KL, nor unite forces with Tyrells.
issue is that message goes to a raven in which it risk getting shot down. Edmure should have listened to his king's orders
Agreed, He wanted Edmure to do nothing but he never explicitly said so. Lack of communication.
His biggest mistake was being a child. 14 at the beginning if the books. When he broke down in the dark next to bran, just started sobbing holding his broken brothers hand, it really hit hard how young he was.
Ned did a terrible job raising him. Ned was a terrible ruler and a terrible parent, for the circumstances they were in.
@@shorewall no he didn’t and no he wasn’t. He was a deeply traumatized man trying to protect his family from the politics that killed his sister, who was his hero. He was never suppose to be a leader, so he was never taught how to be one. He was raised as a second son and then forced to be a leader after being traumatized so bad he has nightmares for years and very clearly suffered from PTSD. He made mistakes. No one can say he didn’t. But that’s the point. Every single character made mistakes. It doesn’t make them horrible. Your one dimensional view of him is just dumb and shows your lack of critical thinking skills. And either way, raised correctly or not, Robb was still a child. Even a child raised perfectly wouldn’t be lead to lead a country at 14.
thank you! that's something that really gets lost on people because they aged him up in the show. in the books, he's barely older than Joffrey. you could argue that the primary mistake was the northmen declaring a 14 year old their king. Robb was almost like a second coming of Daeron the Young Dragon--GRRM loves for his history to come back around--in that he's a brilliant tactician, but simply not experienced enough to understand the long game.
Stop it please. Being young isn’t a mistake, and sobbing about his brother? So what? Trusting Greyjoys? Check, bad move, Baelon was stubborn and forever angry at Starks, and being kinda stuck-up about marrying a Frey girl? Yup, just stick to your word when making that promise, but simply being 14 is not a fault in it of itself. Many 14 year olds have very strong convictions.
@@m.williams4971 no one said the he was at fault was being 14. It’s an expression, using symmetrical and metaphorical language to drive home a point. My point was that all of his mistakes come back to the fact that he was a child. Trusting Theon? That’s his best friend. As a 14 year old of course you trust your best friend. Being stuck up about a Frey? Since when are 14 year old boys really able to be good husbands? Never. He was a child and his mistakes are childish mistakes. Which makes sense because he’s a child. No one literally meant that he is at fault for being 14. But you knew that. You just like being an overly literal annoyance because at least then you can pinpoint why you’re so unlikeable and say it’s intentional.
I can’t see anything regarding Robb and his campaign without getting a little emotional. Yes he made many small yet costly mistakes that led to his downfall, but he was just a teenager. He truly was one worthy of his following, and I wish him and Jon could have been reunited as men and share the stories of their adventures to each other. The North remembers.
THE NORTH REMEMBERS!!!
Robb made mistakes. But that were not that much of big mistakes.
The circumstances are much more responsible for his downfall. Or i could say the writers want him to be dead.
Cathlyn betrayed him by releasing jamie Lannister.
Roose betrayed him at red wedding.
Freys betrayed him.
Karstarks betrayed him.
Nobody expected Joffrey to kill ned stark.
Nobody expected renly to die.
Nobody expected theon to attack winterfell.
Nobody expected karstarks to kill those little boys.
@@ishanparbhakar7150 One tiny nit to pick: when discussing ASOIAF there are not "writers" in the multiple. There is George R. R. Martin, *THE* writer in the singular. The idiots who ruined the show don't count.
Book Robb was one of my favourite characters and I was devastated when he was murdered. Took me a long time to forgive GRRM for that and continue reading.
Robb's downfall was the result of many small misplays that compounded into larger long term issues. Him and his allies made some boneheaded tactical decisions, lost the trust of opportunist allies like the Boltons and Freys, and failed to make meaningful alliances with Southern houses. Realistically I think Robb was just too inexperienced to win the long game.
I think you’re wrong, first off almost all Robb’s tactics were sound. The only one I can think of that wasn’t was the sack of Duskendale, which wasn’t Robb but Roose’s schemes. The only two major issues he had were diplomatic, that being betraying the marriage with the Freys (which he did for the primary reason of being honorable, which is like the main Stark attribute) and being crowned king in the north (this one not really being his fault, the northmen thrust it on him) otherwise the rest were flukes, Renley likely would have made concessions with Robb but died. Theon had planned to align the greyjoys with the starks but balon held too strong a grudge. And making meaningful alliances with the southern houses is a moot point, how was he to know that the vale controlled be his devil aunt would never help because of a petty childhood rivalry in the mind of a wicked lysa? Plus alliances with the westerlands was impossible, and the rest of the major houses (stormlands/reach) were already aligned elsewhere.
Its not really about trust its more just giving them something to make their cooperation worth while for them. Lannesters know they can buy almost anyone off if they just give a better offer, and really thats how it works. Rob probably shouldnt have trusted in allies that were not long time stark supportera for their name alone. Like come on the boltons hate starks and were given the most power in the army lol
@@flairian4528
I agree, You don’t see many Houses in the south aligned with the north. The Vale can be trusted for sure but it dependable for the Riverlands ( I say because of the Freys, and the rivalry between Blackwood and Bracken ). Northern Houses are fighters, not political figures. I doubt that he would trust Renley or Stannis because they would not agree to let him be crowned king. I say Stannis would have been the only person who could give him what he wants, if the terms are reasonable.
Renly tells Catelyn that he's OK with Robb continuing to call himself the King in the North if he likes, as long as he still pays homage to Renly as overlord: "_King_ is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service ... those I must have" (Catelyn 2, ACoK). It's unlikely Stannis would have allowed that, of course.
But Robb probably could have bent the knee to either of them, and/or renounced his title, without losing face with the other lords of the North.
Of course, Renly & Stannis may never have given Robb what he _really_ wants: freedom from interference, his family and/or vassals to never again be the playthings of capricious kings on the Iron Throne.
Also Robb says (in Catelyn 1) that he needs Balon Greyjoy's fleet (presumably to besiege King's Landing?). He might have thought Balon would very likely bear too much of a grudge and/or be too wrapped up in his own "iron price" bullshit. But if Robb absolutely needs a fleet, and no other fleet is plausible -- maybe mercenaries from Essos, but with what coin? -- then sending an envoy makes strategic sense. Sending Theon alone was a foolish choice, though no-one would have predicted just how catastrophic that choice would be.
@@wereoctopusAgreed. But I think no matter how masterfully Robb might have played offering an alliance to Balon that never would have worked. Balon was never going to go for it. Neither would Victarion, Euron, or Asha for that matter. Only, if he sent Theon with an Army would he be able to secure an alliance witn the Iron Islands.
Maybe if after Balon died, Theon returned and won the Kingsmoot (on the promise of independence, or maybe just looting Casterly Rock) but thats impossible to plan for. No one knew Balon would "fall" off a bridge.
As you say, he had to take a risk, he had no other strategic choices at that point, because of poor decisions he already made.
I can't help but feel pity for Edmure Tully with the battle at the Stone Mill (where he prevented Tywin from going west). It is clear from the context that Robb was keeping his cards close to his chest, probably in an attempt to make sure the plan didn't leak to the Lannisters. Unfortunately, he played his strategy too secretively. Had Edmure known that the overall plan was to get Tywin to go west, Edmure would not have met Tywin in battle. Because Edmure was kept out of the loop (intentionally or otherwise), Edmure did what any good leader would do and acted proactively. So Edmure is a guy trying to do the right thing at great personal risk, but because the strategy was intentionally withheld from him, he made a strategic mistake and is essentially blamed for the whole war going against the Stark coalition, which is really unfair obviously. The responsibility for every strategic mistake is on Robb and Catelyn.
Was Robb in experienced or was edmure inexperienced
I think edmure was dumb cause he didn’t tell his uncle his plans yet his uncle knew from his own knowledge that was Robb’s plan all along
So edmure was dumb either not being told and not looking and being smart himself and having no strategy ar all
@@johnwaddles6718 Supreme commander Rob is at the top, it's ultimately his responsibility. He should have considered the possibility that Edmure was dumb and made sure to tell him the obvious.
@@johnwaddles6718 If you are referring to the Blackfish, from the very beginning, he was one of Robb's chief lieutenants, commanding the army outriders. Catelyn specifically comments on this, saying the Blackfish played an important part in every battle Robb fought. Blackfish was in the inner-most circle, Edmure was not.
Edmure was arguably Robb's most important and powerful ally. Not telling him the plan was not just moronic; it was downright irresponsible.
I think Robb definitely made a mistake not telling Edmure, a man in command of a major army and effectively the liege lord of half of Robb's kingdom, what the overall strategy was. But it is a symptom of Robb's major flaw as a leader. He doesn't take the time to soothe the egos of his allies, possibly because he would have sucked it up to "do the right thing". He fails in the political game by relying on personal friendships as well. This may be understandable (the personal friendships of Ned, Robert and Jon were the spark that took down the Targeryans) but it was a major mistake.
Rob always gets a lot of blame for breaking his marriage pact but he shouldn't have had to make it in the first place. Frey's leige lord was under attack and Rob was comming through with an army to fight back. Any other lord would have let Rob through with no delays. But Frey haggled with and threatened his own leige lord's grandson. Can we be certain that Bolton and Frey would not have betrayed Rob if he had not married someone else? Bolton especially was always waiting for the right opportunity.
A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Frey wanted an in with the new king, and used his advantage to get it. We see many times throughout history lords competing against their kings.
No king has ever ruled alone. They need to please their keys to power. If you are depending on help from someone, you have to give and take. Feudalism is by nature decentralized.
I could see Robb cancelling his marriage if he could get a better political marriage, but he didn't. He acted like he didn't crave power, and so he lost.
Roose's opportunity might never have arisen if only Robb has kept his pact with Walder Frey.
Robb is not a Tully, he has no authority over Frey and who is he to speak of oaths when the Starks are asking the Freys to break their oaths to the crown
That's what happens when u send catelyn to negotiate
@@PantomimeHorseit wouldn't have mattered in the end who Robb married. He was fucked once Edmure overstepped and beat Tywin then failed to follow through. Walder was tied to the Lannisters by Marriage as well but that didn't stop him from helping Robb. In the Walder does what would give him the most power. The only difference is that the Red wedding would have been Robb's wedding
I miss Robb, he was my fav character in the books and show
The first mistake in Robbs plan was trusting the Boltons. Yes, they are his strongest bannermen, but they are also the less trustworthy. He should have kept them close all the times. Instead, he should have given the command of his second army to the manderlys(arguably, his most loyal bannermen).
The second biggest error was not marrying the Frey Girl right away, and taking some 'hostages' from the freys. As his mother said, the Freys were not to be trusted.
His third error was sending Theon away.
@@Darius-_ Roose also knew that he couldn't get away with anything under Ned's command. He didn't have the same respect for Robb.
@@Darius-_yeah but roose intentionally fought battles he couldnt win to weaken the northern army under his control and get rid of some people that were in his way (the hornwoods).
In the books, I think it's said or implied that Bolton only turned on him once he had started making enough little mistakes that it was obvious to Roose that Robb wouldn't be winning the war.
@@lightworker2956 Absolutely. Roose Bolton was an opportunist with his main goal being his own personal gain. That's why he married the Frey girl, too - he was offered her weight in gold (and so picked the fattest Frey daughter), and also assumed that he was marrying into the Northern royal family, before Robb made his mistake with Jayne Westerling.
Wed a Frey but don't consummate the marriage (a young girl, so non-consummation could be explained) and bring the girl along, separate her and as many of her relations from her family as possible. Maintain a loyalist at the Twins to keep Lord Walder apprised of the war's progress while simultaneously serving as a House Stark spy. The fiancee could be renounced at a later date.
I love the use of art from the miniature game - it's too nice to only end up on boxes stacked up in a corner.
I’m so sad we never got a Robb POV. He was one of my favorites in the first couple books
It has always bothered me how critical people are of Rob's decision to marry Jane Westerling. GRR Martin had explicitely set up Walder Fray as "The late Lord Fray" - opportunistic immoral man on the lookout to join the stronger side. He was always a weasel. Rob breaking his vows was just a pretext. The betreyal was always coming.
Well he might have valued being married into potentially the next royal family as more valuable than being lord of river run. But being married into the king’s uncle, on his mothers side? Nah.
He wouldn’t have betrayed the opportunity for a Frey Queen.
@@brentkerr4791 He was planning, with Roose to betray Robb the second Winterfell.. fell. As Roose said, 'When Robb lost Winterfell, he lost the war.'
It's not betrayal big 'B'
The Lannister family is the most powerful in Westeros.
Small families do what they're told, OR ELSE.
Living at the whim of those more powerful tends to make people insecure and cruel.
When Arya's at Harrenhal, she sees two Freys ride up and pay the ransom of four other Freys (including one bastard) held at Harrenhal, with a chest full of gold. In contrast, no-one comes to pay the ransom of any captured Northern lords.
Given his general character and how many children and grandchildren he has, I doubt Walder would bother with a ransom payment, except as a cover story for two envoys sent to establish a line of communication with Tywin.
The chapters aren't always in strict chronological order (even before the Feast/Dance split), but it's likely Walder Frey was hedging his bets (if not committing outright to betrayal) before Theon even takes Winterfell.
Catelyn let Robb down on several occasions:
1) She started the war too soon. In KL Ned commanded her to go home, secretly tell his bannermen to prepare for war, and keep Theon close. She never did any of that. Instead, she seized Tyrion when none of the preparation was secured.
2) Later, she had a chance to tell Robb it was his father's last words to her: Keep Theon close. Robb would have listened. Instead, she never mentioned it was Ned's instruction. She keeps talking passive-aggressive to Robb and he gets angry. And the only thing she thinks of is how miserable she is, being a woman and a mother. She's that self-centred.
3) She failed at negotiations with Walder Frey. He was he father's bannerman, so she gave him too much. But even so, she didn't insist upon immediate marriage between Robb and a Frey girl. She knew from her own experience how war makes it difficult for men to remain loyal, and Robb was even younger than Ned. She should have wedded Robb right there and then, to secure his alliance with the Freys.
4) She released Jaime. A pointless move from every aspect. He would be recaptured or killed on his way to KL anyway. But she could not stay still if there was a chance for some drama.
5) Finally, she was suspecting Walder Frey to kill them all the way to the Twins! She thought about it for days! And instead of keeping Robb out of the Twins, she just goes on with the visit, meanwhile antagonising Edmure and Robb alike.
She has Cersei syndrome. She believes herself to be smarter than everyone else without realizing how stupid she actually is
Despite not being the biggest fan of Catelyn Stark, there are some points objectively wrong. She was vehemently opposed to Theon being sent to treat with Balon. Walder Frey was in a position of advantage during the negotiations (he knew Robb could not storm the castle, he was a rebel to the crown so Walder would have Lannister's gratitude if he refused him, and Frey were not Robb Bannerman). On the other hand, Robb needed desperately to pass the gates and needed all the men he could assemble to even Tywin's numbers. Knowing how Lord Frey is, obviously he would squeeze the most he can to give them crossing of the Twins. About the suspicion, even Robb had, but what else could they do? They needed to cross the Twins to go North and after Karstark's abandonment, they needed every man they could get. Robb knew he had to humble himself to the Freys(prideful and despicable man) to have their support. Catelyn made some foolish mistakes, like Tyrion's capture and freeing Jaime. But so did Robb, and it was not their fault they had treacherous bannerman like Freys and Boltons. The major problem with Robb as King in the North, was Frey broking guest right(a deeply sacred thing in Westeros culture)
@@MiguelCruz-cz2fu As for Theon the original commenter points out that Catelyn doesn't tell Robb that it was Ned's instruction to keep Theon close, not just hers. Robb evidently thought her advice was valuable, but it's obvious he would have respected his father's military expertise more than his mother's. Making it clear it was Ned's instruction almost certainly would have convinced him. And while yes, Robb made a huge blunder by marrying Jeyne Westerling, I think you're underselling Catelyn's mistakes. Taking Tyrion was utterly pointless and started the war, and freeing Jaime was utterly pointless and lost them the war. She literally got Ned and Robb killed and Sansa captured. Ned, Sansa and Arya would have been safe so long as there wasn't open conflict and Robb was safe from Tywin's assassins so long as Jaime was in his custody. In literally every conceivable way, Catelyn ruined everything for everyone.
@@MiguelCruz-cz2fu
As for keeping Theon close - Catelyn didn't say it was Ned's last instruction. If she stopped pitying helself for a moment, she'd understand that was a sure way to make Robb listen.
As for negotiation with Frey, Catelyn approached it with contempt and didn't even think about the situation from her counterpart's perspective.
She was not just asking for a bridge. She was asking Frey to rebel against the crown. Lord Walder put everything at stake. And he would become a long-term ally. So the marriage pact was as important to Frey as to Stark.
But only one marriage. She should have explained to Walder Frey that she needs her other children to have as many marriage alliances as possible. It reduces the chance of Robb's defeat, and Robb's success in the rebellion means House Frey prospers as well. Frey's fate is now tied to Stark's and Lord Walder couldn't beat that logic.
Another important thing: Catelyn should have offered the Freys a post on Robb's council, but the main thing is that the post sounds great, for Frey's reputation. But that required that Catelyn get rid of her irrational contempt for Frey and learn a bit of empathy.
Of course, offer Walder to marry a few of his offspring to other Stark bannerman, and offer more opportunities for wards, not just two boys in Winterfell. The Freys should have been tied to many houses in the North.
Did Catelyn think about all this? Hell no. She scolded Walder Frey and asked for the pass. That's it! Such a poor negotiation strategy.
Worst thing, she negotiated to postpone the marriage until after the war, despite saying herself that "Frey need help in keeping faith". Unfortunately, Catelyn rarely practiced what she preached.
@@MiguelCruz-cz2fu Agreed on the negotiations part, true that Freys had huge leverage, a master negotiator could land a better deal but she did her best, also they had no time for weddings as the clock was ticking. She was right about 2 things, Theon should never go the Iron Islands and keeping greywind close no matter what, but she failed to convey both of these points.Overall though her contribution was extremely negetive, freys and boltons decided to act after jaime was released, the final nail in Robbs coffin.
I really hate that he died. Richard Madden was perfect as Rob Stark and Cosimo de' Medici
Lol & he married walder freys daughter as a medici I felt they did that on purpose, I laughed when I saw that too
That's why George RR Martin is a genius at story telling. He knows you want Robb, Eddard, etc to live. When I was reading the books a decade ago, even when Bran fell out of the tower after the 80th page you couldn't believe he would kill off a child so soon. (Obviously he did not die)
The anchor around Robb's neck was always Riverrun. Look at the map. It's an overextension, from any direction. If Robb wanted to be king in the North, he would have taken Moat Cailin, maybe the Twins for good measure. But nobody was ever going to secure the Riverlands. It's good writing on GRRM's part, having Robb's mother be a Tully, makes for a powderkeg
He could have won pretty easily ,after he captured Jaime he has 32k men vs Tywin 20k , why he didn't march to KL would remain a mistery , and by mistery I mean plot
@@flavius5722 Robb would have needed to take Harrenhal to reach KL, and he'd probably have to take it before the second Lannister army came up from the Westerlands.
@@trajanthegreat2928 The second Lannisters " army " its a sad joke , 8k peasents with 0 training , that is why they get so easily defeated, not even a single survivor , it would had taken half a year for Stafford to turn them in a regular force , before he even start marching trow Riverlands , not that he can advance without fighting his way trow all the castles and the brotherhood without baners
Tywin cant afford to hide in a ruin castle by a 15 years old ,but even if he does thats better because that way Robb will had him traped inside , while the Baratheons are marching towards KL
Far better than the plot armour of going to the Westerlands
Love the art towards the beginning from the ASOIAF miniatures game! Just got started with a work friend and can't wait to take down his Starks with my Lannister battalion. 🦁
Robb had no spies in Kings landing. If he knew about the truth that Arya escaped and Sansa betrayed her family, he can kill Jaime and send his head to Kings Landing. Tywin will be furious and he may assemble an army and attack north. Without Tywin, Cersie's misrule and her stupid plans make tyrells enemies. Robb can stand in the north and try an alliance with Dorne. But the important factor o Robb's failure was the defeat of Stannis at Blackwater.
Just like with Tywin, one of Robb’s biggest mistakes was seeing people like pawns on the chessboard, failing to see their unpredictability and rashness. That’s the X factor they couldn’t predict for, the unpredictability and rashness of human nature. For Tywin, it was the acting out of his children. He saw them as pawns of advance House Lannister, but Jamie and especially Cersei ruined those plans with their incest affair and the subsequent bastards, to the point that Cersei even aborted the only trueborn child she had with Robert. And Tyrion killed him with the crossbow. If you look at the story as a whole, there seems to be a constant theme of terrible things happening because the young defy their elders and act out. Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jamie, Cersei, Robb, Joffrey, etc.
Cersei didn’t abort that child, it died after birth.
@@m.williams4971Not in the books.
Hey Robert. Off topic but I was listening to one of you livestreams the other day when you mentioned "Fevre Dream" calling it a book about "Vampires, on paddle boats, in the deep south, by GRRM". I bought it the next morning, finished it 3 days later and now have 3 of my co-workers reading it as well.
Phenomenal book, as you said it was. I doubt there'd be a good reason or a neat way to do it but id love to see something about it on here eventually. Maybe a Halloween video. But thats just a fever dream I'm sure.
Keep up with the great videos!
Bro, so glad more people are finding this book it is such a vampire gem it rocks
I think one of his early mistakes was to accept the title of the King in the North & King of the Trident which put him in an opposition to the Baratheon brothers, especially Stannis. His claim to kinghsip over the North put him at odds with those claiming kinghsip to all of Seven Kingdoms, even if they were also fighting the Lannisters. He should remain just the Warden of the North after Ned's death imo & submit himself to Stannis, especially after Renly's death. Overall Robb & Stannis are my favourite characters in ASOIAF.
Yessss
9:37 Not to mention that defending Riverrun by having his forces wait across the river to battle the Lannister forces while they're crossing is a very strong position and perfectly competent interpretation of "defend Riverrun"
Great vid as always IDG. Robb was very much a Grey Wind in his own right , he blew strong and fierce but eventually died out. There is a what could have been at work with Robb , had certain decisions been altered or factors / events beyond his control went a bit differently. For such a young wolf he did very well ; his military prowess, ally / force building & maturity all quite impressive. But in several ways he was out of his depth. Ned was understandably an isolationist with his own children ; so they were not as worldly or had much of a wide network. Compare that to Tywin's diplomatic and deal making abilities , Robb was well outclassed. Understandably so , given Robb's more insular existence up to then and the age / experience disparity. Also, not being more tactically clear with Edmure and having an internal saboteur like Roose as a key cog both yielded quite disastrous results. Alienating the Karstarks not helpful either.
And yes Robb's honorable dutiful side did ultimately get the best of him. Robb was taken out by treachery, that he partly brought on himself. RS did make a fatal error by reneging on his Frey match in favor of marrying Jeyne Westerling. Robb certainly allowed his honor to get the best of him , doing so hastened his demise. Not defending or absolving that choice but i do think much of the circumstances often overlooked. Lets not forget he was still very young (16) - father dead , thrust into massive responsibility at that young age , literally at war etc. RS' siblings either presumed dead , missing or in Sansa's case with the enemy. That is a considerable amount of turmoil and trauma. On top of that he was also physically wounded , which Jeyne was helping nurse RS back to health. JW likely drugged Robb as well. Robb messed up for sure , literally a fatal error but he was also a very young man & imo very much taken advantage of at arguably his most emotionally , mentally and physically vulnerable.
He's only **fifteen** when Catelyn goes to treat with Renly and Stannis, though he might be sixteen when he dies. Obviously he has Catelyn's guidance, and the counsel of his vassal lords (for what that's worth), but he handles himself admirably for much of the war of five kings. Cat favourably compares his maturity with the various "knights of summer" of Renly's court, some of whom are 21 or older.
@@wereoctopus i agree , i think he does incredibly well ; shows great military prowess , tactical thinking , maturity and able to present himself as a figure to rally around. His influence was keenly felt by a great many. And given the circumstances , dealing with all the turmoil and trauma at such a young age and from a somewhat insular upbringing no less ; he does very well on numerous fronts. Really a few tweaks with key decisions & certain factors outside of his control ; things could have went very differently. RS does strike me as very mature and precocious for such a young person.
Though I still i think his age is pertinent. Impressive how well he does and quality he shows at that age. But also do have to keep in mind his age with what he was dealing with. Thrust into massive responsibility , a crazy amount of challenges , turmoil and trauma for still quite a young person. I think it at least partly contributed to being taken advantage of by JW. Also, he is generally up against some very cunning experienced opponents. And still makes a very good account of himself overall. I admire Robb a lot and really such a heart wrenching moment his death / the manner of it. GRRM likes to rip our hearts out quite often , especially around characters we are really rooting for.
I completely agree Andrew , for some reason with Robb his trauma / what he was dealing with tends to be somewhat overlooked compared to other characters. He tends to get the "he's an idiot" / look at this blunder so casually. Especially with the Jeyne Westerling situation in the way you put it. Hardly just a rash idiotic moment / lapse. There was a lot more going on and a lot he had to navigate in not anywhere near his strongest state of mind or body at the time.
@@AlexBB77 I think part of why he's judged too harshly is that he was aged up in the show. Let's face it, though Richard Madden did a fantastic job in the role, and could look very vulnerable at times, he just didn't look like a 15 yr old boy, and thus doesn't get as much sympathy.
And that leads to another factor - stupid patriarchal gender roles and norms, where a young man is often granted much less emotional support, and seldom allowed to make mistakes because of trauma, stress, or emotion, unlike a woman of the same age; ie Dany. Robb's still a kid, and should be forgiven a normal moment of weakness. He did a whole lot better in his situation, while under more pressure than many adults would be able to manage, than most 15 yr olds would be capable of!
These double standards are also why I can't stand the hate the Catelyn gets from a certain segment of readers/viewers for making some perfectly human decisions and actions for the sake of protecting her family, without the knowledge of distant events or hindsight that we the readers have. Ned made a hell of a lot of mistakes too, but is more or less universally loved. He has his flaws, but they're usually ignored or forgiven. I certainly don't entirely blame him for his mistakes, or at least I understand the reasons behind his actions. Everyone deserves empathy.
Except for Walder Frey. He just sucks.
Thanks a bunch for pointing this out! I was about to do it myself. :D Drives me nuts when people overlook this. Robb didn't marry for love, or because he was just thinking with his d***, he was in a hugely vulnerable position when what happened happened.
I don't think Robb chose love over duty, at least not in the books. He chose Jeyne's honor over his own after having lain with her when hearing the news of his brothers.
Robb was a brilliant army commander on the tactical and operational levels, but he simply didn't have much skill on the wider strategic and diplomatic levels. Every campaign he personally fought was successful in the immediate term, but he just never had any clear plan for how to end the war. Part of that was some mistakes of his own, and part of that was the situation changing unexpectedly. A key factor, though, was that being crowned king narrowed his diplomatic options considerably. Any claimant to the Iron Throne he might ally with would require his submission, while his lords expected him to uphold their newfound independence, and while holding the North alone might have been possible, the addition of the Riverlands to his "realm" made it completely indefensible.
Plus, of course, the obvious blunder of not telling Edmure the whole plan. It's a pretty classic mistake for a commander to make: not telling your subordinate(s) everything but expecting them to know exactly what you want them to do, then running into problems when they do something unexpected.
I think the biggest issue that Robb had going against him was his age and inexperience. He was only 15 when he died, and 14 when he called the northern banners. He'd never led an army before, or even fought in a real battle. And it's clear that he had far more training in warfare than in diplomacy, though being a kid with a gift for tactics, he still should have had time to learn the diplomatic side of ruling if circumstances hadn't forced him into his position. He would probably have been a great leader in time, but time was the one thing he didn't have.
@@thing_under_the_stairs Very true. He was thrust into a situation that neither he nor most people his age would have been prepared for. It's honestly more surprising that he was so skilled a military commander at that age than it is that he was a poor diplomat and politician.
@@Wolfeson28 I've always considered Robb Stark to be something of a tactical prodigy. He may have lost the war, but he won every battle that he commanded, and that's more than impressive for a 14 yr old with no previous field experience. Hell, in his very first real battle he captured Jaime Lannister, possibly the most skilled fighter of their time, mostly through clever tactics. If you also look at Jon's skill as a swordsman, it's clear that Ned taught his boys well. Too bad Ned wasn't that good at playing politics.
Had Robb not been crowned king then he certainly has the power to act as Kingmaker. Would he have allied with Stannis for example? It is possible, and Stannis is probably the one most likely to help the North get justice (plus he has the legal right to the throne). That changes the strategic situation considerably. However they have many of the same personal problems as each other, Robb just being more personable than Stannis.
Honestly Robbs biggest mistake was sending Theon to see his dad. The image of losing his homeland, and the knock on effects on his northern lords, is incalculable.
na, Robb was a stratrgist. he understood what to do. it's just so much went wrong. securing his kingdpom was his goal. killing or capturing Tywin would have resolved some major aspects of the war. but his allies plotted against him or undermined him or failed. cat fails to bring an ally to the table sets his prisoners free or loses them she is responsible fir the loss of the karstarks. theon is recognized as a fellow prince buth throws it all away to prove himself to Balon. Edmure violates cleart orders and conducts a private war with Tywin. the vale wants to join but are being lled by a mad woman who wont offer men or passage north. the freys get cold feet and abandon robb when stannis is defeated at blackwater. Bolton joins in with the freys while the tyrells who could have been allies join joffrey.
Been subbed and watching you for years now. And one thing I’ve always appreciated is that you never ask people to subscribe. You simply let us know what you do and leave it to our volition. Small but appreciated by me. Now it’s time to grab some popcorn and enjoy the show🙂
How do you not love a new INDEEPGEEK video 😁👍
A lot of his mistakes are because he was young and inexperienced and didn't have the best advisers. That and a good deal of act of plot level blunders. Like he gets a lot of grief for forsaking his vows and wedding Jeyne Westerling, but idk he's a 14 year old boy he probably thought she was hot. So where's his advisers to tell him he's fucking up? His mother gives him shit for it later, but she basically unilaterally released Jaime from captivity which weakened their position considerably. Robb had a lot thrown onto his shoulders like being made King in the North. It's a wonder he did as well as he did.
Yeah, agree. Caitlyn is actually pretty terrible.
Have you ever considered covering the Brandon Sanderson Cosmere books? Stormlight, Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, etc.? I love your fantasy centric content and I feel like the Cosmere community would benefit from your perspective and your quality videos!
It’s interesting. When Robb died they declared Tywin the Victor, but they don’t realise that they fall short where Tywin does. The Egotistical perspective is that one beats the other when the other dies. The principled perspective is that one beats the other when the principle is exhausted. Robb Starks lives on, the loyalty he won has yet to have a say. That’s the power of the honourable man over the cynical. The cynical practical man can defeat the honourable idealistic man in the short term, but in making the honourable man a martyr you’ve created an ideal that cannot be destroyed only exhausted. Robb is a martyr now, he’s an ideal. Northern Idealists will fight and die for anyone who has the leverage to weild those principles. They are extremists for all intents and purposes and thats incredibly fucking dangerous as the cyvasse board stands. Nobody else has that level of Morale buff.
This Thumbnail and title made me want to click INSTANTLY! 😂
Very well done!
A very fine video! One of the best videos in weeks! This shone a light on situations and strategies that were difficult to see clearly in the books, just due to all the different things going on from all angles with all the POV characters. Despite his failures, I have even more respect for Robb than I did before. The guy was a teenage werewolf!
... and yeah, that decision not to go ahead with the Frey wedding was the dumbest thing ever.
I never thought of Robb as a teenage werewolf before, and now I don't want to think of him in any other way!
I think timing with Tywin mattered a whole lot. Tywin's army made it just in time. If he's held up even 4 hours longer, then he's gotta storm Kings Landing instead of taking Stannis by suprise from behind. Every single hour changes the entire War up until that point, imo.
Well Stannis had the right strategy to take the capital and it was about to fall, it’s just timing, I feel like though Tyrion is a good commander as he bought time, Tyrion is a very underrated character for being a general, so is Edmure
@@maxtomlinson8134 i agree, I'm only stating that IDG saying that what Edmure did to Tywin didn't matter bc" the messenger would have caught up to him eventually anyway" is off bc if Tywin is delayed by even 12 hours, Stannis wins the Battle of Kings Landing, or at the very least, is inside of it and Tywin would no longer have the suprise of catching Stannis from behind.
Tywin really did make it right at the last moment. So any delay would change the outcome. Maybe Tywin could have taken the city back from Stannis, but by the time he does, Joffery would have been dead. Cersei, too, since she had plans to be killed by Ser Payne the moment Stannis took the city.
It def mattered that Edmure won the battle against Tywin. Which is just great writing. A victory becoming a defeat in the long run is very poetic of GRRM.
Another detail that might be important is that there already is snow in the north when Robert and Ned leave for King's Landing. It's quite possible that Robb counted on winter to come and make the north impossible to attack and use this time to ask his Arryn aunt to make an alliance.
Probably not said but it might have been in his head or in some of his bannermen. And from what we see, the Royces wanted to help him
Having winter on westeros for a some years might force the lannister to stay in their castle.
He was the best battle strategien when it came to ASOIAF but still lost the war, shows your GRE Martin just loves to mess with us
Remember: the greatest plan can still go awry if your leader doesn't have a good head on his shoulders.
Pun intended
Damn... Edmure really, REALLY goofed big time.
Karstark wasn't executed for "repeated insubordination", he was executed for the murder of prisoners of war who were children
Not to mention: To avoid reprisals (Sansa?).
That's not worse than repeated insubordination
Robb's mistake was being crowned King in the North. If the Northern lords would have just shut up, then he should have bent the knee to Stannis, the rightful King together they could have completely annihilated the Lannisters. The reality is that the real blow dealt to the Starks was when Stannis lost the Blackwater; because this allowed the Lannisters to put their full attention to the Northern war. Perhaps the most ideal would have been if Renly recognized Stannis's claim and thus creating a three way alliance between Stannis, Renly, and Robb. Robb and Renly would have balanced Stannis's worst impulses and he would have made a great king.
Apart from Mel's curse I don't see how Robb siding with Stannis changes anything. If he'd marched on KL, they both would face the Lannister-Tyrell host and would probably lose against such numbers, or he'd just do what he tried in cannon: leading Tywin on a merry chase through the Westerlands and away from KL
@@simontaylor2143 you clearly missed my point.
@@capricornyearofthetiger well you said Robb's mistake, or rather his bannermen's was being crowned. If the Baratheon's decide to be less pig headed it would make a huge difference but that's beyond Robb's influence
Even worse than accepting a crown was relenting to be crowned King in the North _and_ of the Riverlands.
Perhaps Robb needed to make gestures towards northern independence to keep his lords away from their homes and harvests after the original objective of the war was rendered moot by Ned's execution.
But the Riverlands?
Famously unholdable, a breadbasket of the seven kingdoms, and currently ravaged by war; How was Robb ever to benefit from this added encumbrance?
House Tully was already at war with the crown, no extra finessing needed there... Perhaps Stannis could have been persuaded to let 'King in the North' slide, as a gloss on the established title of Warden - The North was a nation unto itself in all but name anyway - but even Renly let alone his less obliging brother, could hardly be expected to let _two_ of his eight prospective dominions lie under the rule of another - and create a prospective rival into the bargain.
OK, because in this scenario Renly backs his brother doesn't die by shadow baby, the brothers in turn enter into an alliance with Robb there would have been no Lannister-Tyrell alliance because the Reach is still with Renly who's supporting Stannis. @@simontaylor2143
I disagree about Jeyne Westerling -- while Robb is clearly choosing between love and duty when choosing to marry her TV show counterpart, in the books he's choosing between different kinds of duty. He's distraught after receiving news of his younger brothers' apparent death, and in that moment of vulnerability, he and Jeyne have sex. As she's the daughter of a (minor) lord, he thus feels duty-bound to marry her, even though it means breaking his word to Walter Frey.
(I don't know if he would have acted the same way if Jeyne were a commoner. Probably not -- this is a feudal patriarchy after all)
Or at least, that seems the most likely reading. We never get a point-of-view chapter with Robb, only with Cat reacting to Robb's decisions. Perhaps Cat's own experiences (her betrothal to Brandon Stark transferring to Ned after the Targaryens murder him, the never-quite-healed rift caused by Ned's seeming infidelity and raising Jon Snow at Winterfell) colour her own perceptions of Robb's actions.
So many videos the last week or so Robert!
Robb lost the second he freed Theon.
Because of that he lost Winterfell and because of that Roose Bolton betrayed him.
Thank tou for another giod listen!
Happy to be your 800th like! Loved this video and I'm STILL mad at Robb for fumbling this colossal bag...
He's stupid for not telling Edmure to let Tywins army through to the west
He would be stupid regardless if he did, because his plan was terrible
Truly, a fucking tragedy that fully pulled me into the story
Who would have imagined a fantasy book to be such a phenomenon that would capture imagination of so many in such force!
Robb was my favorite character, at least up to...well you know
I think this understates Edmure's mistake. Once Tywin is across the Red Fork, it becomes more likely that he'll press on west even if he does get news of Renly's death, rather than fight his way back over the Red Fork to reach another uncertain battle at King's Landing. Even if Edmure should have been better informed, it's still insubordination for him to exceed his orders. Do you think Stannis would have put up with that?
I don’t see how it was a mistake, because Robb’s army would have been destroyed by Tywin if we look at the context (Tywin’s army is four times larger and mostly on foot with a lot of cavalry, as opposed to the stark host which is all cavalry, furthermore they’re in westerlands with no supply to speak of or any local support, as for the Lannister’s they do they know the terrain and their people can provide intelligence and seek refuge from the Starks) Robb persumes he will ambush them and destroy it entirely. Which I heavily doubt if anything I see Robb losing his army and maybe his life being trapped in the westerlands
@@maxtomlinson8134 Yours sounds like a third view, different from both mine and InDeepGeek's video. Do you at least agree crossing the Red Fork made Tywin less likely to turn back again to reach King's Landing?
@@driftsolstice3685 Yes I do think that
Like Sun Tzu says, when it comes to miscommunication, the blame always rests on the shoulders of the one giving the orders
Like you said we didn't actually see the scene, but i just don't understand why they couldn't just tell Edmure the plan? I know he's not the brightest guy but he seems loyal so why wouldn't they trust him? Did they think he would blab to his riverland buddies and one of them might be a spy/turncloak?
Because it was a messenger, not a face to face meeting. Ravens get shot down, and men waylaid and tortured. If Tywin knew the plan, he could take advantage of that. Better to keep the message simple.
@@shadowofhawk55 okay, that makes sense, then. It's been awhile since I read that section, I was thinking these were orders Robb gave before leaving Riverrun. Thanks for clarifying that
@@jsull81 I can’t remember if it’s explicitly stated or if I just assumed it, but I would be pretty contrived otherwise
@@shadowofhawk55 ya, I can't remember exactly either, but that would at least make it make sense
I’d rather call it a happy time
Correction, Roose did not suffer minimal losses against tywin at the green fork. He lost 4-5000 men after he took the night march on Tywin, the lannisters suffered minimal losses and tywin could have easily pursued and destroyed Robb’s eastern front. Truth Roose lost badly on purpose to weaken the forces of other northern houses loyal to the starks while preserving his own strength. I think his intent was to usurp the starks from day one and robb provided the perfect opportunity by giving him command of his infantry. He later send more northmen to their death at Duskendale and ruby ford , all together Robb lost 8-9000 men due to Roose’s scheming. Therefore Robb’s biggest mistake has to be making Roose his second in command.
His biggest weakness is that George Martin wanted him to fail to move the story along.
Consider the situation before Theon stabs them in the back, but after, the North crushes 3 separate Lanister armies. Would any *sane* pirate choose to attack the North at that point when you have the richest kingdom completely unguarded while proclaiming your independence? Why? The North has way less things to steal and its richest city is on the other side of the continent. Its capital is far inland. There is literally nothing to take on the West coast. Compare that to Westerlands - all the gold mines are near the coast as is the richest city that now has almost no troops left in it.
Catelyn freeing Jaime is ultimately what opens Rob up to something like the Red Wedding. Tywin would never have supported something like that, if there was a risk that his son would be killed in retaliation.
Everybody always shit on Robb for his decisions, but I think Cat's decision to set Jaime free has an equal weight in blame. At least Robb was a teenager.
Because he’s a warrior king, not a politician he’s flawed so he ruined his alliance to the Frey’s
Robb was the standard fairy tale Prince character. In most books, he would have been the main character, but that is what was his failing. Robb and Ned could never see past honor and duty to be the kind of duplicitous you would have to be in order to survive the political game with more ruthless players.
Make a video about the theory or possibility of Robb Stark being resurrected by Lady Stoneheart! Imagine Robb coming back for vengance as a resurrected mutant with Grey Wind's head.
Edmure is the Lord of Riverrun he cannot be left out in major military strategies that occur on his lands. Brynden and Robb were at fault for leaving Edmure in the dark
Jaime didn't kill the Karstark heir, he killed the two younger sons, the heir (Harrion Karstark) was captured and held prisoner by the Lannisters.
There was no bigger mistake than marrying Jeyne Westerling. Breaking faith with his own bannermen undermined Robb in so many ways. #2 was easily killing Rickard Karstark, who he could've just held prisoner for the rest of the war. No matter what your strategy is you can't win a war without a united army.
Bigger mistakes than letting Theon go, when on the other hand the *late* Lord Frey had never been a reliable bannerman?
Aren't kings always "Protector of the Realm"? What does it look like when the king cannot even protect his own keep?
@@TV-ge3uj Actually yes. Robb had a plan to retake the North which could've worked if he hadn't been killed at The Twins, which wouldn't have happened if he hadn't crossed Frey. Lord Frey is by no means honorable, but he is pragmatic. As long as Robb's victory meant the Frey's would be part of a new royal family Walder would've stayed loyal out of sheer self interest. But once Robb took that prospect out of the equation, loyalty was no longer in Frey's best interest.
And one more thing about the Greyjoys. Their hold on the North was always tenuous, as their losses to the Boltons and Stannis proved. So if Robb lived long enough he definitely could've beat them. So while trusting Theon was a huge mistake, it was one Robb could've recovered from. Unlike alienating his own bannermen.
@@thelateescapist8266 There is still Roose Bolton, who was convinced (after the Battle of the Blackwater) that Robbs's campaign was doomed and who held too much of Robb's trust. This is at least an "Otto Hightower" situation, even with the Freys still loyal.
@@TV-ge3uj I never said marrying Jeyne was Robb's only mistake, just his biggest. By the time the Blackwater was fought Robb had already lost the support of the Frey's, who Bolton had also allied himself with through marriage, and the Lannisters gained the support of the Tyrells. So the odds were stacking up against Robb. Like Frey Bolton acted primarily in his own interest. And if Robb had maintained the support of all his other bannermen Bolton might not have betrayed him. And even if he had that betrayal could not have been fatal without the participation of the Freys.
Robb didn't choose love over duty, GRRM has explicitly said that Robb/Jeyne is not a love story. The bitter irony is that he chose one duty over another. He had slept with her, so he had to marry her. It's a thing he learned from Ned and Jon. He couldn't stomach the idea of fathering a bastard, condemning Jeyne to dishonor, his child to a life as a bastard, and his future Frey wife to having to go through the same thing as Catelyn.
Imagine if Roose had won that first battle. In one fell swoop, the armies of the North could have captured or killed Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Tywin Lannister, the Mountain, and more. They would have taking significant land, taken Riverrun, and severely weakened the Westerland's leadership. King's Landing would be in chaos, with no Tyrion or Tywin to guide it, and eventually taken by Stannis Baratheon. The Tyrell's wouldn't have sided with the Lannisters, may have sided with Stannis or remained neutral or even declared independence. The North would have stood a better chance at taking the Westerlands and Casterly Rock. However, the Ironborn would have probably still attacked the North, and Ramsey may have still done what he did, Roose would be even more powerful after winning such a battle, and he'd have the head of house Lannister in his custody. Roose could have had leverage on everyone, offering them Tywin for an alliance. I suppose it would have probably still spelt the end for the Lannisters, but whether it would spell the end for the Starks would still come down to if Robb wed Jeyne.
Awesome video!
"Crashing this house, with no survivors"
He was favorite character on the show 😢
Yaassss love the robb content gimme more
Rob could have been so much more 😔
He blew it.
Not telling Edmure is an indefensible blunder though. Cat briefly thinks about how Edmure is already chomping at the bit to prove himself as lord of Riverrun even while Hoster yet lives. If not Robb, Cat certainly should have realised that Edmure would be seeking a great victory to prove to the famously fickle River Lords that he could hack it. Of course he would sieze an opportunity to really take it to the Lannisters. Robb should have identified Edmure as a firebrandt and clearly lain down his plans and the need for Edmure to stay his hand in the defence of Riverrun
A blunder, certainly, but I'd say an understandable one. Commanders typically work on a 'need to know' basis - to prevent information falling into enemy hands, and to reduce the risk of embarrassment should their plans need amending or scrapping entirely.
A more experienced commander than Robb would have spotted the potential problem though, I agree, and boy howdy did he pay for it.
@@PantomimeHorse Yeah that's a good point especially considering Tywin undoubtedly had spies reporting to him. Ultimately it was a judgement call between greater clarity of strategy and maintaining security. It would have been so difficult to decide
edmure is to blame not Robb. its made quirte clear that aer Edmure was doing his own thing rather than what he was commanded to do.
He was doomed the moment he betrayed his word.
Robb didn't pick "love over duty". He picked her honor over his. He didn't know Jeyne well enough to love her.
Also, he was probably under the influence of a substance that clouded his good judgment. Jeyne's maternal line leads back to Maggy the Frog who knew how to brew love potions.
People are a bit confused with books vs. show.
I like that you cut Edmure some slack, but the plan could definitely have worked. If Edmure had moved to stop Tywin from crossing the river, then feigned a retreat back to Riverrun, Tywin would have believed Edmure to have been cowed and continued his march to engage Robb's cavalry. But then Edmure could have doubled back, now defending the river crossing but from the OTHER side. Then he could actually have delayed Tywin long enough to stop him marching back to King's Landing. Evidently Edmure was capable of holding the crossing despite inferior numbers, although it's likely he'd have been more cautious in this scenario since retreating to Riverrun was no longer an option, so maybe that caution tips the scales.
However, Robb's infantry was on the same side of the river as Edmure now. Should Edmure believe Tywin is going to break through his defences, he could have retreated, heading for Robb's infantry. Meanwhile that infantry force led by Roose Bolton would be taking Harrenhal, meaning Edmure part of the way would have regained a safe haven to fall back to if Tywin chose to chase him all the way. But he wouldn't. Partway through he'd find out Stannis had taken King's Landing. If he chases Edmure, he's going to be besieging Harrenhal, a formidable castle with a very large army inside, and all of Robb's cavalry bearing down on him. Given Robb's cavalry could move faster than Tywin's host, they'd be free to use hit and run tactics on Tywin for the entire siege, and then there's the possibility Stannis would join the fray, making Tywin entirely surrounded. He wouldn't risk it. He'd be forced to fall back to the Westerlands. He probably wouldn't even be able to take Riverrun, since despite its massively depleted forces with Edmure away, Robb could have outpaced Tywin and reinforced it.
All that was needed was to include Edmure in the plan, and not just tell him to hold Riverrun, but make his army a crucial part of the deception. They could have made a show of accidentally overplaying their hand only to dupe Tywin for the second time after Whispering Wood.
Biggest mistake was not recognizing Theon as his hostage.
thank you for the video!
poor Edmure.
living in the shadow of a giant; and you can't do anything right
and the 1 time you do something right, it ruins everything.
The one thing he did saved robbs army from destruction and his life
Best non live video you’ve done in a while. It’s thorough & a great narrative @indeepgeek
Sorry it's unrelated, but I still love how Stannis killing Renly backfired hard on him. Had he not killed Renly, Tywin wouldn't have had the Tyrel army to defend King's landing with. Like literally the first person everyone should have ganged up on at the start was Joffrey, after then deal with the succession/succession debates.
Stannis taking out Renly first basically gave the war to Tywin.
Facts !
i feel bad for robb and richard madden who played him, he was the genuine heir
I like the reference to A Cunning Plan. The Blackadder character, Baldrick, was known for his cunning plans, but they often proved to be very stupid. GRRM seems also to be aware of this character, as he had the Greenhand King of the Reach, known as 'Baldrick the Cunning' deal with the invading Andels by luring them away from their leaders with food and wine and gifts, and making them loyal to him, then intermarrying with them until the Kingdom of the Reach was all one people under the Gardener Kings.
Choosing love over duty …. That’s wrong
Rob supposedly took Jane maidenhead … with the help of her mom who has relation to Maggie the frog. Supposedly a potion was given to rob as he healed so that he would make that mistake … this was hinted at
Robb now had the duty to marry Jane, or so his honor told him that …
Robb should have exchanged jamie for sansa . Then quickly make an alliance with the Tyrrells with sansa being bethroted to willas. Though im not sure the tyrells would nessecarilly accept as they wanted to be kings of the 7 kingdoms
The North kinda forgot.
Catelyn stark lost the war. Arrested tyrion too early, trusted littlefinger too much and therefore leading ned to trust him too, crucial in his own arrest.
And unforgivably, setting jamie lannister free, jesus christ how dumb can you get?
Robb made three major mistakes:
1. not telling Edmure about his plan for Tywin. He specifically told Edmure to hold Riverrun. How should he know the red Fork was not part of that order? It was not a bad idea to keep tywin away from riverun if you want to protect it.
2. marrying Jeyne Westerling. It was because he was 15 - I know - but it broke his alliance with the Frey and it is not good for a king to not stay true to your word. How could people trust a king who does that?
3. executing Rickard Karstark. If bloodraven was sent to the wall why kill Karstark? The Wall could use strong man and it would be a punishment fitting the crime. If he refused you could still hold him as a prisoner to secure the loyalty of house Karstark.
Considering that letting theon return to his father caused two of the three mistakes, I would say that it should definitely be on the list
I agree with reason 2 and 3 but not 1, he should made sure Jamie wasn’t able to escape as a barging chip to get back Sansa, and threaten if his sister isn’t returned safely, he will kill Jamie, to send a message
Robs a lot like his Granduncle in many ways, a great commander, but his downfall had to do with marriage, in the Blackfishes case its not getting married, in Robbs marrying the wrong person. Was the Blackfish gay? Was he A-sexual? Or was he in love with someone that his brother as head of their house did not allow him to marry so he never married out of protest? That would actually make a great video, one of my favourite characters from the book series is the Black Fish.
ugh the show has ruined people's thoughts on Rob. He DID NOT pick love over duty. He picked honour over duty.
Its not honorable to go back on your word. He chose a westerling over a frey. And it cost him the war. He deserved to be betrayed.
@@kiddbuu5178 he took jane's virginity, he chose her honour over his own, which was the right thing to do morally.
@@gothicusmaximus5697 yeah thats what is said but thats bull. Plenty of people fuck and don't have to get married. He was a king and decided he could do what he wanted. If he was worried about her honor he wouldn't have slept with her.
Robb marrying for love was how it was portrayed in the show. In the books. Robb had taken a wound at the time he learned of his brothers' seeming deaths. And in a fit of grief. And Jeyne Westerling tending to his wounds and offering comfort. Robb slept with her. And on the morrow. In an effort to preserve her honor, married her. So in the books, he breaks his marriage pact with the Freys for honor. Not love.
10:06 honestly, I feel like he wouldn’t have received word in time like the blackfish says. Because, if Tywin crosses the red fork and then learns about the situation with Stannis and the Tyrells he would then have to cross back across it where Edmure could meet him and prevent a crossing. That’s assuming edmure doesn’t harass Tywin the whole way to the westerlands and prevents any word from reaching him
Robb had 32k men , Tywin only 20k , instead of going to the westerlands he should have face Tywin
There was a better play he could have done with Theon, which is to not send him back to Pyke himself but instead send an emissary to Pyke saying, "Hey! Your son is fighting with us against the Lannisters--your favorite people to burn the ships of! And you know what? He's kicking ass and paying the iron price all over the place! Would you like to send some troops for him to command? After the war is over, we'll send him back to you! And hey, why not have a fun time burning Lannisport? In fact, we wouldn't hate it if you wanted to reave all up and down the Westerlands (south of the Riverlands)!"
Robb could have also promised that the Iron Islands would once again be independent after the war--and why not promise that? There's probably nothing Robb could do, if he DID win independence for the North and the Riverlands, to stop the Ironborn from attempting to go solo. Robb and his allies don't have a major naval force to raid the Iron Islands with if they misbehave. So he might as well offer independence to the Ironborn as a plea for their help, rather than suffer it anyway, as a loss of face, after the war.
Now, this would probably piss off some Tully vassals in the Riverlands, who were raided during Greyjoy's Rebellion. So Robb should probably keep this emissary's message a secret until the war is winding down. And, of course, Robb doesn't actually have the power to stop Stannis or Renly from retaking the Iron Islands after either of them retakes the main part of Westeros, and I think Balon knows this.
Still, I think this combination of "I give you leave to reave!" and "I have put your son in a position of military strength and honor and would love him to lead some Ironborn as well" might just win over Balon to his cause. Balon totally hates Ned Stark for being one of his chief humiliators, who helped burn Lordsport and made him bend the knee. But he might be begrudgingly willing to see his son Robb as a chance for better relations ahead if Robb treats him with respect, sends him an emissary (not just a raven), and leads with "I just gave your son some really great honors" along with "I give you carte blanche to pay the iron price for a bunch of rich bitches that you hate anyway." And while Balon may guffaw at the idea that Robb is "giving him" his independence, he will at least respect that Robb acknowledges the Iron Islands as its own thing.
Worst case scenario? Balon may refuse Robb's call for assistance in the Riverlands, but without Theon returned, Balon is less likely to attack the North. He also will have less reason to attack the North, since he now knows he won't have to terrorize them to get them to respect an independence claim. And even without an official alliance, Balon is likely to see the value in Robb's suggestion and raid Lannisport anyway. Meanwhile Robb, by TRYING to put Theon at the head of an Ironborn contingent, is probably getting Theon to love him even more, setting up brilliant relations with a potential future heir of the Iron Islands.
I think if Tywin makes it back to the west then Robb's plan does work. Stannis takes KL. The timing was so near that him not being close to the river makes him too late to take Stannis flank. Roose moves south and cuts Tywin's late advance to KL off or catches him under the walls of the city. If Robb trusted Edmure to know the whole plan I think it works. He could even offer token resistance at the fords but let the bulk of Tywins army advance to the west. Then it's Robb and Stannis treating and I think Robb would put off his crown and go home.
Too many small mistakes led to loosing. He tried to be too much like Ned. And I get it, but even Sansa says to Jon, you can't make same mistakes as father and Robb
Its ok , The Starks still got a disney ending(except for Jon)and pretty much rule the 7 kingdoms now
There's no way Robb expected a king's moot after Balon's death. There hadn't been one in 2-4 thousand years
great video. You should do WHAt IF series. that would be great
Any suggestions for a what if?
Robb's mistakes were compounded by Catlyn not doing what Ned told her to do, or very poorly/half heartedly doing them (she barely tries in attempting to make sure Theon is kept nearby). She also suggests Bolton as a leader over the Greatjon... ya... doesnt go so well that. the videos "why Catlyn is the worst" were pretty compelling. Robb's biggest weakness is his mother... which is to bad. Originally i liked Catlyn, watching the show. Then reading the books... something just felt wrong about her.
@deepgeek, have you read the king killer chronicles by Patrick rothfuss? His third book just came out and the series would make for some excellent content. It seems right up your alley
I've never heard of King Killer. I'm going to check it out :)
I'll be on my death bed, and the husk of GRR Martin will be writing another show for HBO before we get the next book at this pace.
Had Robb been older and more seasoned things would have gone a bit differently. He was a tactical genius and charismatic but lacked the Diplomatic and Political experience of Tywin. His mother was too focused on her own goals and went behind Robb's back. With more age Robb would have been one of the most formidable players in the Seven Kingdoms.
Here's an odd question: If Robb successfully captured Tywin, would that have changed much?
Littlefinger was handling the majority of the negotiations. That marriage was going to happen no matter what. That massive army was going to form, no matter what. (I might he wrong on this one, but the Tyrell/Baratheon/Lannister alliance needed to move with a sense of urgency.)
Robb may have an insanely valuable hostage with Tywin Lannister, to be sure. But, he also has lost a massive amount if troops after The Freys and Karstarks left. He's incredibly weak. Even if The Iron Throne sent a quarter of this new army against Robb, he'd be crushed.
Maybe holding him hostage will buy some time, but would it be enough for him to actually negotiate some kind of a peace, especially since he's out numbered?
After the battle of the fords , Robb had 32k men , Tywin only 20k at Harrenhal , Renly was still alive back than , the Greyjoy invasion was still months away , he just need to go crushed Tywin , that way he would have never meet Jeyne , so no oath broke , so nothing betwen him and KL , he could have demand his sisters back , and let Stannis take KL
The Reach , the Vale and the westerlands will also declare independence
Had a great idea about what I would’ve done! I’m Robb, just found out they killed me father, the king of the North, but in the mid term of things, luck 🍀 has it, I caught Jamie! This is what I would’ve done after that fact! My 2 sisters are that, already slain in my eyes! I have no more keys on getting them back! Jamie is dead, his death is only because of my father’s death! A life for a life! After that, I’d go back to winterfell! Build my house build my lands and build a huge army! Invite the wildlings into the North, sign a treaty with them, give them lands of the lost northern family’s, that passed thru-out the times and the lands that the night watch no longer command, they will rebuild those castles, and tend to the lands in return, they must commit to the king of the North, and in due time, match on to kings landings but while on the move, take over the Freys, take over the iron islands, and the river run! Now that we smashed everything needed, erased the boltons and the freys, nothing stands in a your way and the north has took over 70% of the kings lands, after that. March to castley rock! Take that from the lions, and now the Lannisters only hold kings landing, since Stannis has the island and drorn will not help the lannisters it’s over! Alittle longer time frame has passed, but at least you had a chance to rebuild, Marry, have many many kids to restart the Stark bloodline and you made the North a much better place! Yeah your sisters died, but whom told them to stay in kings landing when they had many opportunities to leave or escape! The only trouble that I for sake is the dragons coming our way and the long night with the night king coming! But if we played our cards right! All the forts along the wall will be built to last / fixed and manned with many thousands of wildings and northern family’s, the Northern lands will be fully engulfed with great families and strong men, if the dragon queens allows us to rule but bend our knee to her in exchange for the north and it to be free, she can kill all the South if she pleases! Let’s just say, if Robb stopped his war the moment he caught Jamie and killed Jamie all of the rest would’ve never happened! And the greyjoys would’ve never burnt down winterfell, and the people we loved, would be alive and in a much better position
Intresting, here is what I would do
I'm Robb I just march south to save Riverrun, I did that , I captured Jaime , his two cousins and destroy their army
Now I would cut Jaime's hand because he killed ten of my men but I will keep him alive , without a hand he will not try to escape or lets say kill a Karstark boy
Now I have 6k man northeners with me , 12k with Roose Bolton but I would gather 15k more rivermen , 11k of my uncle Edmure and 4k more of my new father in law Walder Frey
So now I am King in the North / the Trident, and I have 33k men at arms while my last treath Tywin Lannister has only 20k at Harennhal according to my uncle Blackfish and his spies
So instead of losing time going to the Westerlands ( why I would do that ,its odd that I just brought this up in the first place) I would go straight to Harrenhall to crush Tywin . I have too many advantages over him :
1) my lords have more experience than the lannisters because they fought in Robert's Rebelion while Tywin didn't
2) My lords know better the terrain of the Trident than the westermens
3) I have a wolfs in my army
4) I have nearly double more man than them
So that I do and it was a masterpiece , Tywin and his dog are death , I captured his brother Kevan ,and I even found Arya at Harennhal
Now all that I ned to do is to send the head of Tywin to KL and demand my other sister back
,and if they still refuse I will just send Bolton to Duskendale or Rosby to burn it until they dont have a choice
Only after that I will send my friend Theon back to the Iron Islands to convince them to also declare independence and maybe attack the Westerlands
Robb, so much wasted potential, but that makes the story interesting
I wish this guy would help write for "Skyros" the Skyrim mod to transform it into AGoT.