I wouldn’t say he was ONLY about hands in the manga. Most of his fights were actually about saving others. Manga goku is a good mix of being a hero, while selfishly wanting to fight a better opponent. Like he literally fought Frieza to avenge namekians and save his friends, he fought nappa and vegeta to avenge his friends and save the earth. Yes goku loves those fights, I mean he left vegeta alive to literally get a better fight later. But he fought vegeta with the soul purpose of saving everyone from him. Hell one of the most major moments in OG dragon ball was krillin dying and goku rushing in to avenge him only to lose and almost die. Again he loves to fight, but let’s not act that he isn’t heroic at all
Yeah, while getting stronger and fighting tough opponents is a big motivator for Goku, even in the manga he was still a fundamentally good person. Sure, he's no hero of justice type who actively patrols the streets for crime, but he'd still help out people in need in case he stumbles into them. Sure he has his own foibles and self-interests, but were he as selfish and single-minded as a lot of people make him out to be, Goku would've never bothered to have Upa's dad resurrected or prevent Murasaki blowing up Android 8.
@@RosencrantzxGuildenstern exactly, people tend to forget stuff like that which is a shame, with how “simple” people make goku out to be, it’s surprising how many times I’ve seen those same people completely make wrong statements about goku’s character.
@@Tyree42069 I've also often been perplexed by how so many people get a character as supposedly simple as Goku so wrong. Even moreso than the differences between anime and manga, I tend to chalk that one up to bad localization (Like Goku's original Super Saiyan speech vs that weird, self-adulating "I am the hope of the universe" shermon in the funi dub).
A lot of the stigma around Goku's characterization of being a hero in the anime comes from that 90s/2000s localization changes funimation made, if you see what the characters say in the sub against the dub it's often times totally different, they took a lot of liberty with it. He's closer to the manga type in the sub
Yeah even Toriyama said the old films had Goku as more of a Superman type hero than he is in the manga/anime where the "poison creeps out" sometimes. That's why Super is jarring for more than just Goku seeming dumber than ever before. It's a far cry from save the earth Goku when he puts multiple universes at risk of erasure because "fuck it he wanna run them hands against anyone and everyone." I like the balance of being down to scrap anytime, but also understanding the consequences of those actions
@@richborn6700 I like to think that Goku isn't being stupid, but not necessarily heroic he just wouldn't want his friends/family/planet getting destroyed cause uh he kinda lives there like any normal person would. Holds true sometimes, other times he's being too dumb to realize but yeah
@@richborn6700 See my issue is that this even in the manga was almost never how Goku was written him letting Vegeta life is liket he only example of this in the entire original run of the manga. Tienshinhan had a change of heart by the end of the tournament already Piccolo got to life so God wouldn't die and the Dragonballs could continue to exist. Goku gave Freezer a change to life on the condition that he stops his evil and never meets him again. The moment Freezer brock this condition did he go for the kill He was the only one that had moral reason for not going to Gero early as he didn't feel its right to punish someone for Crimes that they haven't commit yet And with Cell Did he explicitly want Gohan to kill him quick. Never mind that he forfit the right with Cell as he never planned on letting it end and only wanted to prepare Gohan. And finally with Boo had him give up his own change to have a fun fight to the end with Boo to give the next generation the torch And those are just some of the bigger examples. If there ever was any worth mentioning doses of this poison was it ether isolated to Vegeta or removed by the Editor against Toriyama's wishes.
Goku is not a typical hero but he's also not a villain. He does heroic things, has a good heart and is a good person. He's also very gullible and naive.
You lost me at Goku calling himself an Earthling instead of a Saiyan is anime only. It happens in the manga too and it's very important for his character development.
For me it was some bits he talks about Super lol. Goku doesnt win against beerus, against hit, against black (Zeno does). And against Jiren he has help of 17 and frieza. And in the manga after top he doesnt win against Gas.
@@xLucaTomyxyeah the Super stuff was wild, especially when the "Goku does everything" trope started with GT...Where he was the only one who did anything
@@xLucaTomyx ...so not only cant dbz fans not read or watch the series but, they can't understand a general statement? Dude literally said it was about holding off the villains until Goku beats the biggest one. This doesn't mean he beats Beerus. This doesn't mean he beats everyone. It means the series focuses mainly on Goku to get the plot going and solve it. I freaking hate how stupid this fan base is.
I agree that Goku was about hands, but he very specifically tried to save Gohan the first few major fights of the "Z" portion. Raditz is a given, but he wishes Gohan to be okay by name when heading toward the Saiyans as well as both times he had a "Super Hero" landing on Namek.
@@demonintellect9834 but goku buu saga L was relying on goten and trunks to beat buu because goku wanted the next generation to save earth but that was a L
I owned every manga as a kid and you couldn’t be anymore correct. Manga Goku was elite, he cared about saving Earth because he considered it his home and had a family. Other than that he just wanted to be as strong as possible. All the other heroic shit from the anime was filler and unnecessary. I feel people would look at Goku differently, more of an antihero than an actual hero if the anime version was accurate.
Goku is a hero tho just not a SUPERHERO, watch Carthu's video i think he explains this well bc Goku DOES care about ppl he ain't the type to see someone needing help and laugh or not care, he IS Earth's hero but not something to gloat about
But Goku is considered "pure hearted" so he can't be an anti-hero like you're suggesting. Goku may have sounded corny in some part of the English dub of the anime, but he still has the same type of personality that made him pure hearted.
I wanted to watch this video all the way through to see your complete take on this, and you confused me more than convinced me of anything. The fact that you are familiar with the Dragon ball story "through the manga first" confused me, because after everything you said it seems to me that you forgot a lot of things from the manga, or you just focused on the other characters more than Goku, and only said things that non-fans on the internet shout non-stop. I have the manga too and I've read it all, including the modern Dragon ball and believe me there is a difference, you mention things from the modern Dragon ball, but towards the end of the video you say some things that give me the impression that you are not that familiar with the modern Dragon ball stories, and details from those stories, because the characterization in the anime and in the manga of modern Dragon ball is in many places different from the original characterization of these characters, especially Goku, and the old English dub did give a lot of Superman speeches to Goku, and the anime did make him little more heroic of a person, but he is a hero, just not in the traditional view of the hero like Superman. Goku has selfish moments in the story (now i'm talking about the original manga), but he's still quite selfless, and does a lot of good things simply because he wants to and because he thinks it's the right thing to do, he fights and he's training to better himself not only as a fighter but as a person too, and he's not a mindless idiot who just likes to throw punches at anyone who wants to fight him, and don't even try to pull that "bad father" card, that just goes to show me that you really don't remember the story at all. Akira Toriyama was a very good writer, may this legend of a man rest in peace, but he was not a writer who kept a lot of written information about his story, but relied on his memory a lot, which leads us to a lot of holes in the story that were never explained, to forgotten characters that never appeared for no reason, and a lot of other things, so when he gaves an interview about his story and his characters, he would forget a lot of things about them and remember some details and only give short answers, or just say something new that came to his mind, but was never explained in the story, and the new explanation he gave in the interview has problems with the already presented rules of the world, like when he says that Goku was introduced in the anime more like a hero, and that he is actually quite a selfish character, but Akira Toriyama himself forgot the things that Goku did and what Goku said in the story. Let's be honest if you have such a big story, and you hardly write anything down so you can remind yourself you will forget a lot of things, like let's say I create a character at the age of twenty something, and after ten years I read that story I wrote, I would like to change it because my way of thinking is different, and now I would write this character in a different way, and Akira Toriyama never read his old stories, but he only relied on his memory and on new values and opinions that he did not have when he was a younger writer. A manga creator like Eiichiro Oda who created One Peace, is a creator whose interviews one could take seriously because he really deeply plans, and writes down all the things about his story so he doesn't forget, while Akira Toriyama was an old creator whose name sold things, and that's why they made him more involved after he helped to make the movie Battle of Gods, so they can use his name, because his name sells stuff regardless of whether it's good or bad quality, even though he was very minimally involved, they state that it was all completely written by Akira Toriyama, and the only project in which he was heavily involved was Dragon ball DAIMA, after the last Dragon Ball Super movie, he just wanted to make a simple adventure with his characters because he liked those kinds of stories to make the most.
Please forget about Super, forget about GT, forget also even about the animated show and just read the manga. This is the masterpiece that influenced the world, the anime is just a glimpse of the genius of a man, of the expert panneling, designs, emotions, writing. This is expertly crafted and still looks amazing.
It's kind of funny that when a mangaka finds out their series is getting an anime, they're going to have to contend with at least three different versions of their material: the version they wrote, the version the anime staff interpreted, and the way that the fans view the series. From Toriyama's POV, Goku is a fallible and somewhat selfish character who is solely fixated on self-improvement. The anime turns him into a superhero. And the fanbase pretends that Goku is some kind of eldritch god that can instantly defeat everyone by breathing on them, which is something Goku wouldn't even want for himself.
The last point you made is exactly why I hate the DB fandom with Death battle stuff. They want Goku to be the exact opposite of what he is. They want to believe Goku can beat anything in fiction with a finger and get mad at any thought of Goku either having a disadvantage or weakness.
You gained a fan. Maybe this is why me reading HunterxHunter makes me love it so much. I'm 38 and I realize I never read the Manga until Super (Mangas weren't easy to access especially for a young kid from Detroit). Shit even the anime and movies were hard to obtain outside of Toonami. I watched the Namek Saga on the International channel in Japanese with no Subtitles (I juts knew hands were being thrown and Krillin died). I'm going to read from Dragon Ball in November.
I really wish people took the information in this video and applied it to Super as well, and stop arguing about it being canon, assuming Toriyama had anything to do with it. He doesn't. Its all just based on his original manga, or for Toei now, based on current other dragonball material they come up with. Which is what Super and GT are.
Amazing video bro thank you for making this, I feel they should’ve dived into jirens backstory more and if you really analyze both characters it would’ve made jiren look like the real hero and make goku look like a villian which would’ve made the story fun asf
"Super is only about Goku" Loses to Beerus. He beats Frieza but gets shot. Wins against Winnie the pooh. Loses to knock off Frieza. Loses to Hit. Loses to Zamasu. Loses to him again. Loses to toppo. Loses to Jiren. Beats Jiren with Frieza (mind you he was just holding Jiren in place) Losses to Broly (only beats him after fusion) Wins against Morro henchman. Wins against Morro (but with the help of Vegeta, without Vegeta Goku is getting squished) Loses to Granola. Loses to Gas. Stalemates with Gas. Beats Gas with Granola. Loses to Frieza. Super Hero is about Gohan and some people were angry it wasn't about Goku and Vegeta. Yeah DBS is Goku show.
@GeteMachine Krillin is a cop, Gohan is a scholar, Tien has his own MA dojo, Roshi is just fucking off like any other character would. Also why would they have motivation?!?!?! Once you get old enought you get what you were looking for. If they still didn't have what they want you people would say they never changed or developed But let's talk about what they did, SSG ritual needed more saiyans without them nothing would happen, roshi tought goku mafuba that was used to fuck over Zamasu, T.O.P and U6 needed more fighters, Z-fighters embarrassed moro henchman and super hero was basicly gohan and piccolo movie, we also got goten and trunks arc that people dislike since it wasn't about goku and vegeta. Also they did nothing significant in Z either if you think they didn't in Duper.
Dragon ball super has 3 anime only fights compared to the manga. I didn’t know goku vs kelfa was an anime only fight in the manga it was gohan vs kefla in the manga. I Might have to read all of dragon ball super
Every argument for dragon ball just eventually devolves into obsurdity. I saw people saying they think its bs they claim goku is pure of heart. Like cmon guys....
Goku is a flawed hero. His selfishness is his flaw. And from that he can learn from his selfish choices. He spared Frieza thinking he can change but when he came back and started threatening the lives of his friends and the earth goku killed king cold and Frieza in the future timeline. Goku also told king Kai he regretted sparing vegeta on earth because gohan krillin and bulma are in danger with him on namek. Goku does many heroic acts albeit he’s not your traditional hero. He’s like us. If there’s evil threatening someone in his presence he’ll stop it. He doesn’t search for bad guys he just happens to stumble upon them. Gokus desire for fighting is his flaw. While balancing his selflessness. Goku vows to defeat Frieza in the name of all the people he’s killed and even says if he doesn’t try the spirit bomb the entire universe will be at danger. Toriyama said he doesn’t fight for the sake of others when in the series he clearly does just that. Which means goku has complex morals and nuanced decision making. In short goku is a hero by his selfless actions but he’s also selfish a great balance.
Yeah. People don't get that Toriyama was actually good to not make Goku a Gary-Stu, because his weakness is his lack of foresight and myopic naivety. Goku tends to just accept things as they are in the situation and the consequences are his mistakes, but mistakes create motivation for him to push his limits and he likes the stakes of said threats to give him that challenge. Goku's strengths and weaknesses circle between each other evenly and equally.
Dragon Ball, Naruto and Hunter X Hunter... that was my journey through shonen. I grew up watching DB and loving it. It was the best thing I'd ever seen. But there were things I wished I got more of. Like more fleshed out characters and unique techniques. Which I got in Naruto. But Naruto hurt my brain because I watched it when it was airing and I had to sit through all the filler. Not just filler episodes and filler arcs, but also filler that was added into canon episodes. I also wished that Naruto had a bit better writing. Then I discovered Hunter X Hunter and it was the perfect combination of everything I ever wanted from a shonen. Then I also discovered HxH came out in 1998 and that Naruto's Kishimoto took a lot from it. Then I also discovered the YYH was a Togashi series and I watched that too. To me HxH is the most well crafted shonen I've ever seen. But Dragon Ball still holds a very special place in my heart. So special that both Super and Daima gave me goosebumps when I first started watching both.
"He could have teleported Cell to King Kai and instantly warped back." Maybe, but that would have made it an even BIGGER dick move to King Kai, and even Goku's not that rude.
I don't really understand your point since there aren't any examples shown, are you saying that the added anime only scenes are what made Gokus character different? If so, then wasn't it mainly the fault of the OG Funimation dub and not because of the added scenes? Like they changed Gokus dialouge completely in the dub rather than giving him more dialouge to make him sound more heroric, especially the "I am" speech against Frieza. If we were talking about the Sub, it still stayed accurate to Gokus character despite th3 added scenes but it didn't sound like you were referring to the Sub when you were mainly talking about the opinions of the western audience. So yeah, really confused on what you're trying to say
I think they tried to fix that in super when roshi and the witch trapped goku and krillin in the Forrest. Goku just liked fighting and a challenge. I wish that was more prevalent in the anime. Toriyama said himself this version of goku is not how he intended him.
At 6:15 you say "he" brings back Goku as a kid. You don't mean Toriyama do you? Cause none of the original creative team had anything to do with GT from what I remember.
@@JordanrealYTHe says "The inaugural thing, the thing that kicked this all off was the original Dragon Ball with Goku as a kid. Then in GT he brings back Goku as a kid". That's pretty much verbatim what was said. Rewatch from 6:00 on.
It's not really his idea in the first place, it's supposed to be TOEI's original db work. But Toriyama got involved and he enjoyed designing the characters for this one, even helping them out on how it the story should go. No matter how bad or good it is, I think I'll enjoy watching it just like how he enjoyed being involved with this project
Dragonball Super Manga is also like the Regular manga where it just isn't goku saving the day. Goku gets the gist of Ultra Instinct from watching Master Roshi Fight Jiren. Gohan eliminates Kefla as well. Not to mention the Z fighters vs Moro's henchmen, Vegeta vs moro (even though he lost). It did end up being goku to defeat moro but not without help fromthe Grand Kai and UUB.
You should try watching the anime in japanese or, if you really want to watch it dubbed, watch Dragon Ball Z Kai. You'll have a much more canonical experience than the Funimation dub.
I think you got mixed up between the anime and the English dub version of the anime Because where are this "heroic speeches" the anime gave to goku ? There is only one that comes to my mind ,its when uses the kioken against freeza where they changed the whole scene from the manga
@@sangoku876 Well here is a few: Goku's speech to Frieza is pretty much "I am the Hope of the Universe" is pretty Superman, and where in the manga and Japanese it was more Goku telling Frieza he is the Super Saiyan reborn. Is one example and a huge one. The speech Goku gives to Krillin about sparing Vegeta in the dub, is another best example. Goku tells Krillin how love, not hate, would change Vegeta just like it changed him and that is not what Goku said. Goku in the manga and Japanese just admitted he was selfish and that he wanted to fight Vegeta again...
Goku never saves the day on his own in super, Beerus spares him. Whis turns back time in RoF. He stalemated Hit(U6v7 arc he wins later in the anime) Zeno saves the day in trunks arc, and he needed Freiza/17 to beat Jiren. Broly was beaten by gogeta, Moro he needed help by everyone, and Gas lost to Freiza
SOO What's your fav anime of all time? edit. Mister! Dragon ball GT was not Akiras Work at all! He only created the name of that anime series. The rest is pure Toei's staff at work. Manga was created for GT after the show and I don't know for sure but it wasn't finished. 2edit. Goku as far as I know has not the most screen time in the Anime, Gohan has. In the manga Goku is featured more on the panels, but definitively Akira tried to put Gohan on the spot in the early Buu saga.
I think he was a hero tho Toriyama clearly failed to create his vision properly In the fight against nappa and Vegeta he didn’t fight coz he liked it he named all his friends who nappa killed against him and against Vegeta fighting him wasn’t top priority it was saving the earth sure he saved Vegeta bcoz he wanted a rival In namek he saved the peanut gallery’s asses against ginyu force In the cell saga he did not fight cell to see who wins but to test if Gohan could beat him and he trained Gohan to be stronger than him Boo saga was when toriyamas writing deteriorated
Yeah, does of us who were more into the manga than anime, have a totally different view of Dragon Ball... First time I truly realized was when I failed a super-easy (and boring) DB Quiz because the anime had Vegeta achieving Super Saiyan while crying like a baby while punching rocks in space, rather than while training like a real man on Earth. And that's the tip of the iceberg, cause the anime took things differently for almost everything... Anime Vegeta (just to circle back for a moment) is a goddam B*TCH! gets even humiliated by Gohan, when they got back to Earth from Namek, despite the fact that Gohan is waaaay weaker than him, in the manga, and also performs so much better, against Original Form Freeza than Vegeta (in the anime Gohan fights Freeza one on one after Super Saiyan Goku is sent flying into the boiling ocean); Another stupid change (out of the many) is when he comes back for a day to fight Buu, as soon as Goku tells him to fuse, he just says "F*ck you" and attacks Buu, even though he is greatly unmatched and he knows it, while in the manga he accepts almost immediately. And don't get me started on the first fight Goku had against Vegeta, that fight had me stressed on the internet cause Goku was so damn outmatched, even before Vegeta transforms, but the anime made them closer in power just so they could stretch the fight, like having Goku running and jumping around in Kaioken, to escape Vegeta Ozaru, when in reality he was decrepit because he overcommitted with the Kaioken. But even details like Gohan vs Dabra... was he Super Saiyan 2? Was he 1? Of course it was SS1, there was no doubt in the manga, and the fight was also, clearly, one sided and in favour of Dabra, but the anime did things it's own way and got everyone confused.
Akira was original gag manga artist. Like arale. He not ment do dragonball to blew up. He wanted to ens after frieza. Then after cell. He prefer gag manga over action. What make daima make sense
I'd suspect Toriyama watched Koyama's movie and that Goku is a bit more serious then his anime counterpart , he doesnt care much about fighting strong guys , he just wants to get things done and doesnt mind killing his opponnets. That Goku is the Goku that some people want , a bit naive but will get things done and doesnt mind killing someone , Koyama's Goku is the Piccolo Daimao Goku but in adult form or the Goku version just before he died against Raditz. Believe it or not Toriyama changed Goku alot of times, the first one is his clueless tiny self ,. fun and always seeking adventure , the second one in Piccolo Saga and the third one in the Piccolo Jr saga. 23rd Budokai. He brought back his Piccolo Daimao Goku at the start of the saiyans arc/chapters , you will notice he isnt excited about fighting and teams up instead of fighting one on one . After Goku dying Toriyama then went with the 23nd Budokai Tenkaichi self for having a fair fight and testing himself regardless of outcome.
9:45 You saying this when Z was the exact same thing.... looks like not even by reading the manga you realize that Super made Goku lose more times than in Z and made characters help more than in Z. The only thing you're right about is Saiyan's having more impact in the story but then again... THIS HAPPENS IN Z TOO Yall blaming Super for problems that Z started
I wouldn't say dragonball is simple, that being said simple doesnt mean bad and complex doesn't mean good, you can succeed at making a simple show and fail at making a complex show, and if dragonball is simple then it succeeded (for the freeza saga anyway 💀)
In my opinion DBZ anime is great, as you spoke of everybody in Z fighters had a shine time in the anime. Super on the other hand, makes buff very easy. Especially Super saiyans focus on your back and turn into one haha. Thinking android arc back in DBZ. :)
You explained the anime a lot, but never really went in depth about the manga aside from ‘goku was more simple minded.’ Title is very misleading and I feel like you could’ve put more attention on the topic of the video. 3/10.
Goku isn’t a hero. He doesn’t even see himself as a hero, many people equate doing some good things to heroism. Goku was definitely more noble and possibly heroic as a kid but in his adult life his selfish side takes center stage. For starters he had Krillin spare Vegeta a dangerous villain cause he wanted to fight him in the future. Goku prolonged his fight with Frieza and nearly doomed the planet to test his own strength, he agreed with Vegeta to wait for the android attack instead of taking care of Doctor Gero then and there endangering the lives of civilians when he could’ve prevented it causing The Android/Cell Saga. When Goku knew Gohan only has the power to defeat Cell, he handed him a sensu bean to give Cell a fair fight prolonging the situation. Goku fought Majinn Vegeta knowing it could possible awaken Majinn Buu a great evil and to add insult to injury, He prolonged the battle against Majin Buu by letting him live in his super Sayian 3 form when he could’ve destroyed him at that time. Goku maybe pure of Heart in The Naive Oblivious sense and he may be a nice guy , he’s done noble things but Goku’s thirst for battle trumps any good aspects of his nature. He’s more of a noble warrior than a traditional hero, I know fans have their own interpretations especially due to the old Funimation dub, but that’s the character Akira Toriyama wrote. "Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn't fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys... I've always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him."-Akira Toriyama
So toriyama just wanted to make an unlikeable protagonist then. Now I can see why some people prefer the funimation dub goku cause this one’s a POS lmao
@@Lowclasswarrior778fr. The way this dude is talking about goku makes it sound like he was supposed to be the other side of the coin to general tao or some shit.
I'm sorry but claiming Dragon Ball is not "focused" on Goku or not "waiting for Goku" is just not true. And it wasn't true much before super existed. If he won or not is not relevant. What were they doing against the Saiyans? Waiting for Goku. Why did Krilin, Gohan and Vegeta have to clear everyone in namek? Because Goku was still on his way. Why was Piccolo fighting Frieza? Because Goku was out of comission. Why did Trunks kll Frieza? Because he thought Goku was late. Why was Vegeta needed against 19 and 20? Because Goku was sick and couldn't be there. Why was Piccolo the one fighting 17 and 18? Because Goku was waiting for Vegeta and couldn't be there. Why were everyone trying to stop Cell from transforming? Because Goku was training. Why did Gohan fight Cell? Because Goku planned for it to go that way. How did Gohan finish Cell? With the help of Goku. I'm not gonna do Buu, you guys know it. Dragon Ball is and always was about Goku. The secondary characters get to shine, yes, but the vast majority of the time, it isn't because their skills are better suited for the job, it's because Goku can't be there or is preparing to be there. The story always needs an excuse to keep Goku away. The whole story hinges on "since Goku isn't here, we have to make do".
@TheeBreadShow This is one of the dumbest most misinformation pushing videos i've ever watch on dragon ball. Basically an American trying to rewrite dragon ball using the MISCONCEPTION RHETORIC THAT HAS BEEN PUSHED BY AMERICANS FOR YEARS, FIRST OFF, GOKU HAS BEEN SAVING PEOPLE SELFLESSLY IN OG DRAGON BALL FOR YEARS, NOT PUTTING PEOPLE IN DANGER... OG DRAGON BALL IS DRAGON BALL NOT Z... DRAGON BALL HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT GOKU, YOU ARE SIMULTANEOUSLY SKIPPING OG DRAGON BALL REVOLVING AROUND GOKU, GOING TO DRAGON BALL Z AND THEN LYING ABOUT HOW DRAGON BALL IS STRUCTURED. DRAGON BALL SUPER IS THE WAY IT IS BECAUSE OF VEGETA, OG DRAGON BALL WOULD SETUP GOKU WITH NEW ANTAGONISTS TURNED FRIEND/ASSOCIATE THAT WOULD CREATE NEW RIVALRY DYNAMICS AND STORYLINES BUT WITH KEEPING VEGETA AS THIS PERMANENT RIVAL, THE HITS AND JIRENS NEVER CAN CREATE AN INTERESTING STORY WITH GOKU. YOU RIPPED OFF ALL THRESE GARBAGE TALKING POINTS FROM VEGETARDS FROM YEARS BACK AND PUTTING THE "I READ THE MANGA SO MY BS IS ACTUALLY LEGIT " WITHOUT EVER PROVING IT.
I will say the super manga handles the characters way better, other characters do get a lot more love and time to shine like in the moro arc in the invasion of earth, or like kefla fighting gohan in the top, the manga treats goku way better than in the anime, he's more mature and hasn't gotten much dips in his character, besides about getting called a bad father by vegeta but thats only a few moments compared to the 100 in the anime, cuz as much goku is an anti hero (i do agree with that, i still love the z anime,but the manga does potray him much better) he does care about his family and friends deeply, though i cannot say how much he spends with them in the manga as I've only read the 1st vol.
Certain characters do have bad moments like gohan's moment after goku nearly getting killed in the moro arc, but we get one of the best fights with merged zamasu vs goku (that's only in the manga, and is one of the best fights), the top doesn't drag on it only goes for I think 2 volumes, Resurrection of F and the broly don't get an arc, though they are mentioned in the manga, the granola has good and bad moments, and the black arc is really good, tho black in this isn't as a good of an character as in the anime (you will see when if u read it), but the manga is much better even with its problems than the anime ever was, but simply the manga and anime are completely different from one another, Don't go reading into expecting the anime,it's 2 completely different takes of super.
Toriyama said that if too many people would tell him that they "just knew Goku would win!" he'd have him lose. Really explains his record.
That explains a lot
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@@StevenJones851right
@@baconeggcheesepodcast9390 yeah
toriyama as a hater fr
I wouldn’t say he was ONLY about hands in the manga. Most of his fights were actually about saving others. Manga goku is a good mix of being a hero, while selfishly wanting to fight a better opponent. Like he literally fought Frieza to avenge namekians and save his friends, he fought nappa and vegeta to avenge his friends and save the earth. Yes goku loves those fights, I mean he left vegeta alive to literally get a better fight later. But he fought vegeta with the soul purpose of saving everyone from him. Hell one of the most major moments in OG dragon ball was krillin dying and goku rushing in to avenge him only to lose and almost die. Again he loves to fight, but let’s not act that he isn’t heroic at all
Yeah, while getting stronger and fighting tough opponents is a big motivator for Goku, even in the manga he was still a fundamentally good person. Sure, he's no hero of justice type who actively patrols the streets for crime, but he'd still help out people in need in case he stumbles into them. Sure he has his own foibles and self-interests, but were he as selfish and single-minded as a lot of people make him out to be, Goku would've never bothered to have Upa's dad resurrected or prevent Murasaki blowing up Android 8.
@@RosencrantzxGuildenstern exactly, people tend to forget stuff like that which is a shame, with how “simple” people make goku out to be, it’s surprising how many times I’ve seen those same people completely make wrong statements about goku’s character.
@@Tyree42069 I've also often been perplexed by how so many people get a character as supposedly simple as Goku so wrong. Even moreso than the differences between anime and manga, I tend to chalk that one up to bad localization (Like Goku's original Super Saiyan speech vs that weird, self-adulating "I am the hope of the universe" shermon in the funi dub).
His sacrifices too
Goku's a Anti Hero
A lot of the stigma around Goku's characterization of being a hero in the anime comes from that 90s/2000s localization changes funimation made, if you see what the characters say in the sub against the dub it's often times totally different, they took a lot of liberty with it. He's closer to the manga type in the sub
I think he didn't know that before making this vidéo
Dub dragon ball is a totally different show from the sub
True true, goku doesn't really refer to himself as a hero either. He just likes to fight n protect the lil guy
Yeah even Toriyama said the old films had Goku as more of a Superman type hero than he is in the manga/anime where the "poison creeps out" sometimes. That's why Super is jarring for more than just Goku seeming dumber than ever before. It's a far cry from save the earth Goku when he puts multiple universes at risk of erasure because "fuck it he wanna run them hands against anyone and everyone." I like the balance of being down to scrap anytime, but also understanding the consequences of those actions
@@richborn6700 I like to think that Goku isn't being stupid, but not necessarily heroic
he just wouldn't want his friends/family/planet getting destroyed cause uh he kinda lives there like any normal person would. Holds true sometimes, other times he's being too dumb to realize but yeah
@@richborn6700 See my issue is that this even in the manga was almost never how Goku was written him letting Vegeta life is liket he only example of this in the entire original run of the manga.
Tienshinhan had a change of heart by the end of the tournament already
Piccolo got to life so God wouldn't die and the Dragonballs could continue to exist.
Goku gave Freezer a change to life on the condition that he stops his evil and never meets him again. The moment Freezer brock this condition did he go for the kill
He was the only one that had moral reason for not going to Gero early as he didn't feel its right to punish someone for Crimes that they haven't commit yet
And with Cell Did he explicitly want Gohan to kill him quick. Never mind that he forfit the right with Cell as he never planned on letting it end and only wanted to prepare Gohan.
And finally with Boo had him give up his own change to have a fun fight to the end with Boo to give the next generation the torch
And those are just some of the bigger examples.
If there ever was any worth mentioning doses of this poison was it ether isolated to Vegeta or removed by the Editor against Toriyama's wishes.
Goku is not a typical hero but he's also not a villain. He does heroic things, has a good heart and is a good person. He's also very gullible and naive.
You lost me at Goku calling himself an Earthling instead of a Saiyan is anime only. It happens in the manga too and it's very important for his character development.
Ya u right and Holy Spirit of the Living Jesus Loves u . u aka yeshua
For me it was some bits he talks about Super lol. Goku doesnt win against beerus, against hit, against black (Zeno does). And against Jiren he has help of 17 and frieza.
And in the manga after top he doesnt win against Gas.
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@@xLucaTomyxyeah the Super stuff was wild, especially when the "Goku does everything" trope started with GT...Where he was the only one who did anything
@@xLucaTomyx ...so not only cant dbz fans not read or watch the series but, they can't understand a general statement? Dude literally said it was about holding off the villains until Goku beats the biggest one. This doesn't mean he beats Beerus. This doesn't mean he beats everyone. It means the series focuses mainly on Goku to get the plot going and solve it. I freaking hate how stupid this fan base is.
I agree that Goku was about hands, but he very specifically tried to save Gohan the first few major fights of the "Z" portion. Raditz is a given, but he wishes Gohan to be okay by name when heading toward the Saiyans as well as both times he had a "Super Hero" landing on Namek.
the super saiyan 3 one was goku was wasting time to trunks get the dragon radar
Are you talking about super saiyan 3 vs super buu? Or when goku first showed off the transformation?
@@TheeBreadShow nah when goku showed it
Right
@@IJJ5914It definitely was not. Goku later admits that if he wouldve fought fat buu as SS3 and took it seriously he could have killed buu.
@@demonintellect9834 but goku buu saga L was relying on goten and trunks to beat buu because goku wanted the next generation to save earth but that was a L
I owned every manga as a kid and you couldn’t be anymore correct. Manga Goku was elite, he cared about saving Earth because he considered it his home and had a family. Other than that he just wanted to be as strong as possible. All the other heroic shit from the anime was filler and unnecessary. I feel people would look at Goku differently, more of an antihero than an actual hero if the anime version was accurate.
Goku is a hero tho just not a SUPERHERO, watch Carthu's video i think he explains this well bc Goku DOES care about ppl he ain't the type to see someone needing help and laugh or not care, he IS Earth's hero but not something to gloat about
@@tinytitan8807 you’re right 100%, I think he just simply cares. Not necessarily meaning to be the hero, it just happens cause he’s a good dude.
But Goku is considered "pure hearted" so he can't be an anti-hero like you're suggesting. Goku may have sounded corny in some part of the English dub of the anime, but he still has the same type of personality that made him pure hearted.
So you're saying he's wrong
Unnecessary?? Thats what made it better honestly without that alot of amazing quotes and lessons would be lost
I really don't wanna dedicate time to reading the manga, but this sounds too cool to ignore.
Thanks bro 😂😭‼️
Goku’s step stool is wild😂😂
Say it ain’t so😭
Gokus sloppy seconds
Ayoooooooo😅
He still had development in Z
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really love your videos brother , keep it up💪
I wanted to watch this video all the way through to see your complete take on this, and you confused me more than convinced me of anything.
The fact that you are familiar with the Dragon ball story "through the manga first" confused me, because after everything you said it seems to me that you forgot a lot of things from the manga, or you just focused on the other characters more than Goku, and only said things that non-fans on the internet shout non-stop.
I have the manga too and I've read it all, including the modern Dragon ball and believe me there is a difference, you mention things from the modern Dragon ball, but towards the end of the video you say some things that give me the impression that you are not that familiar with the modern Dragon ball stories, and details from those stories, because the characterization in the anime and in the manga of modern Dragon ball is in many places different from the original characterization of these characters, especially Goku, and the old English dub did give a lot of Superman speeches to Goku, and the anime did make him little more heroic of a person, but he is a hero, just not in the traditional view of the hero like Superman.
Goku has selfish moments in the story (now i'm talking about the original manga), but he's still quite selfless, and does a lot of good things simply because he wants to and because he thinks it's the right thing to do, he fights and he's training to better himself not only as a fighter but as a person too, and he's not a mindless idiot who just likes to throw punches at anyone who wants to fight him, and don't even try to pull that "bad father" card, that just goes to show me that you really don't remember the story at all.
Akira Toriyama was a very good writer, may this legend of a man rest in peace, but he was not a writer who kept a lot of written information about his story, but relied on his memory a lot, which leads us to a lot of holes in the story that were never explained, to forgotten characters that never appeared for no reason, and a lot of other things, so when he gaves an interview about his story and his characters, he would forget a lot of things about them and remember some details and only give short answers, or just say something new that came to his mind, but was never explained in the story, and the new explanation he gave in the interview has problems with the already presented rules of the world, like when he says that Goku was introduced in the anime more like a hero, and that he is actually quite a selfish character, but Akira Toriyama himself forgot the things that Goku did and what Goku said in the story.
Let's be honest if you have such a big story, and you hardly write anything down so you can remind yourself you will forget a lot of things, like let's say I create a character at the age of twenty something, and after ten years I read that story I wrote, I would like to change it because my way of thinking is different, and now I would write this character in a different way, and Akira Toriyama never read his old stories, but he only relied on his memory and on new values and opinions that he did not have when he was a younger writer.
A manga creator like Eiichiro Oda who created One Peace, is a creator whose interviews one could take seriously because he really deeply plans, and writes down all the things about his story so he doesn't forget, while Akira Toriyama was an old creator whose name sold things, and that's why they made him more involved after he helped to make the movie Battle of Gods, so they can use his name, because his name sells stuff regardless of whether it's good or bad quality, even though he was very minimally involved, they state that it was all completely written by Akira Toriyama, and the only project in which he was heavily involved was Dragon ball DAIMA, after the last Dragon Ball Super movie, he just wanted to make a simple adventure with his characters because he liked those kinds of stories to make the most.
10:06 i think piccolo's orange form is actually really cool, i recommend watching carthu's dojo's video on it called "the road to orange piccolo"
Please forget about Super, forget about GT, forget also even about the animated show and just read the manga. This is the masterpiece that influenced the world, the anime is just a glimpse of the genius of a man, of the expert panneling, designs, emotions, writing. This is expertly crafted and still looks amazing.
People really need to. I feel like the ignorance of people who ignore the manga or overrate Super don't get it.
Great video King 💪🏿
Thanks brother, I got more coming for yahh✊🏾✊🏾
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It's kind of funny that when a mangaka finds out their series is getting an anime, they're going to have to contend with at least three different versions of their material: the version they wrote, the version the anime staff interpreted, and the way that the fans view the series.
From Toriyama's POV, Goku is a fallible and somewhat selfish character who is solely fixated on self-improvement. The anime turns him into a superhero. And the fanbase pretends that Goku is some kind of eldritch god that can instantly defeat everyone by breathing on them, which is something Goku wouldn't even want for himself.
The last point you made is exactly why I hate the DB fandom with Death battle stuff. They want Goku to be the exact opposite of what he is. They want to believe Goku can beat anything in fiction with a finger and get mad at any thought of Goku either having a disadvantage or weakness.
You gained a fan. Maybe this is why me reading HunterxHunter makes me love it so much. I'm 38 and I realize I never read the Manga until Super (Mangas weren't easy to access especially for a young kid from Detroit). Shit even the anime and movies were hard to obtain outside of Toonami. I watched the Namek Saga on the International channel in Japanese with no Subtitles (I juts knew hands were being thrown and Krillin died). I'm going to read from Dragon Ball in November.
Thanks fr‼️ it’s crazy how so many people have to put stuff together in fragments
But it STILL has so much of a fanbase
I grew up with the book and not the anime, i feel you. I feel people talking about dragonball pulls things out their arses sometimes.
I really wish people took the information in this video and applied it to Super as well, and stop arguing about it being canon, assuming Toriyama had anything to do with it. He doesn't. Its all just based on his original manga, or for Toei now, based on current other dragonball material they come up with. Which is what Super and GT are.
@@GeteMachine unfortunately most believe his Character was supposed to be a Superman Clone
Amazing video bro thank you for making this, I feel they should’ve dived into jirens backstory more and if you really analyze both characters it would’ve made jiren look like the real hero and make goku look like a villian which would’ve made the story fun asf
I agree with you 1000 percent, ig it is a missed opportunity
"Super is only about Goku"
Loses to Beerus.
He beats Frieza but gets shot.
Wins against Winnie the pooh.
Loses to knock off Frieza.
Loses to Hit.
Loses to Zamasu.
Loses to him again.
Loses to toppo.
Loses to Jiren.
Beats Jiren with Frieza (mind you he was just holding Jiren in place)
Losses to Broly (only beats him after fusion)
Wins against Morro henchman.
Wins against Morro (but with the help of Vegeta, without Vegeta Goku is getting squished)
Loses to Granola.
Loses to Gas.
Stalemates with Gas.
Beats Gas with Granola.
Loses to Frieza.
Super Hero is about Gohan and some people were angry it wasn't about Goku and Vegeta.
Yeah DBS is Goku show.
Meanwhile the side-characters do next to nothing significant or have their own unique motivations anymore, in Super.
@GeteMachine Krillin is a cop, Gohan is a scholar, Tien has his own MA dojo, Roshi is just fucking off like any other character would. Also why would they have motivation?!?!?! Once you get old enought you get what you were looking for. If they still didn't have what they want you people would say they never changed or developed
But let's talk about what they did, SSG ritual needed more saiyans without them nothing would happen, roshi tought goku mafuba that was used to fuck over Zamasu, T.O.P and U6 needed more fighters, Z-fighters embarrassed moro henchman and super hero was basicly gohan and piccolo movie, we also got goten and trunks arc that people dislike since it wasn't about goku and vegeta.
Also they did nothing significant in Z either if you think they didn't in Duper.
@@Naius.Gabrius the side characters are useful just not in DBGT
@@StevenJones851 well yeah couse GT stinks
@@Naius.Gabrius it certainly does stink
2:35 you mention Goku vs. Dabura but that match doesn't seem to take place? Unless I'm confused with something else
Right I never saw Goku vs Dabura I don’t think it was in the anime
Fantastic video, I never imagined the Manga differed so much.
Dragon ball super has 3 anime only fights compared to the manga. I didn’t know goku vs kelfa was an anime only fight in the manga it was gohan vs kefla in the manga. I Might have to read all of dragon ball super
In which anime Goku fights Dabura??????
Whats your number 1 favorite ?
Probably something that is mid he’s young not a true 90s baby.
My number one favorite is Hunter Hunter for sure
@@GoPlayNTrafficnow thats a shet take
@@GoPlayNTraffic self reporting your agism is crazy
@@Mahlak_Mriuani_Anatman I was right hunter x hunter is mid the creator can’t even finish a chapter. Lol
Every argument for dragon ball just eventually devolves into obsurdity. I saw people saying they think its bs they claim goku is pure of heart. Like cmon guys....
Goku is a flawed hero. His selfishness is his flaw. And from that he can learn from his selfish choices. He spared Frieza thinking he can change but when he came back and started threatening the lives of his friends and the earth goku killed king cold and Frieza in the future timeline. Goku also told king Kai he regretted sparing vegeta on earth because gohan krillin and bulma are in danger with him on namek. Goku does many heroic acts albeit he’s not your traditional hero. He’s like us. If there’s evil threatening someone in his presence he’ll stop it. He doesn’t search for bad guys he just happens to stumble upon them. Gokus desire for fighting is his flaw. While balancing his selflessness. Goku vows to defeat Frieza in the name of all the people he’s killed and even says if he doesn’t try the spirit bomb the entire universe will be at danger. Toriyama said he doesn’t fight for the sake of others when in the series he clearly does just that. Which means goku has complex morals and nuanced decision making. In short goku is a hero by his selfless actions but he’s also selfish a great balance.
Yeah. People don't get that Toriyama was actually good to not make Goku a Gary-Stu, because his weakness is his lack of foresight and myopic naivety. Goku tends to just accept things as they are in the situation and the consequences are his mistakes, but mistakes create motivation for him to push his limits and he likes the stakes of said threats to give him that challenge. Goku's strengths and weaknesses circle between each other evenly and equally.
Yo thank you this video is straight FACTS
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Yes. You make good stuff
Thanks bro fr‼️🙏🏾
the only real portrait of every dbz character is from db-abridged from team four stars and nobody is taking that away
I got to be introduced to both at a young age , the book was gory as hell
great vid🖐🏾
😂 they made him self-righteous but goku was all about those hands partner
Dragon Ball, Naruto and Hunter X Hunter... that was my journey through shonen.
I grew up watching DB and loving it. It was the best thing I'd ever seen. But there were things I wished I got more of. Like more fleshed out characters and unique techniques. Which I got in Naruto. But Naruto hurt my brain because I watched it when it was airing and I had to sit through all the filler. Not just filler episodes and filler arcs, but also filler that was added into canon episodes. I also wished that Naruto had a bit better writing.
Then I discovered Hunter X Hunter and it was the perfect combination of everything I ever wanted from a shonen. Then I also discovered HxH came out in 1998 and that Naruto's Kishimoto took a lot from it. Then I also discovered the YYH was a Togashi series and I watched that too.
To me HxH is the most well crafted shonen I've ever seen. But Dragon Ball still holds a very special place in my heart. So special that both Super and Daima gave me goosebumps when I first started watching both.
8:46 what do we know about Kai??? Thats the version I grew up with and love
Yeah if I'm in the mood to watch DBZ Dubbed watching I'm throwing on DBZ Kai
@@The_Blue_Otaku i mean DBZ Kai is even much closer to the manga than og DBZ so like just why not watch Kai like it doesnt make sense💀
Still no explanation
Yea I agree although i didnt like the opening Kai’s story was a lot tighter and accurate
I feel so sorry for you kai is not near as good
"He could have teleported Cell to King Kai and instantly warped back."
Maybe, but that would have made it an even BIGGER dick move to King Kai, and even Goku's not that rude.
Technically the hero part came from roshi. It was in one of his lessons. A small lesson but a lesson. It boiled down to not being a dick
he's not a different breed, he's stil a saiyan!!!
Ma man I loved your vid
@ 0:52 he was doing that to stall buu
Which was stupid, he should have just killed boo instead of letting his wife, sons and the entire population of earth dying
He didn’t know it would get that outta hand he was stalling for kid trunks
@@MajinTim for trunks and goten to learn fusion
Not at this moment trunks was going to fetch the dragon radar from capsule corp they don’t train for fusion until a lil after
I don't really understand your point since there aren't any examples shown, are you saying that the added anime only scenes are what made Gokus character different? If so, then wasn't it mainly the fault of the OG Funimation dub and not because of the added scenes? Like they changed Gokus dialouge completely in the dub rather than giving him more dialouge to make him sound more heroric, especially the "I am" speech against Frieza.
If we were talking about the Sub, it still stayed accurate to Gokus character despite th3 added scenes but it didn't sound like you were referring to the Sub when you were mainly talking about the opinions of the western audience.
So yeah, really confused on what you're trying to say
Goku used hakai against zamasu although it wasn't fully effective it was still hakai in the manga and it wasn't animated. I was shocked.
This is an incredible video
I think they tried to fix that in super when roshi and the witch trapped goku and krillin in the Forrest. Goku just liked fighting and a challenge. I wish that was more prevalent in the anime. Toriyama said himself this version of goku is not how he intended him.
Straight up waffling
At 6:15 you say "he" brings back Goku as a kid. You don't mean Toriyama do you? Cause none of the original creative team had anything to do with GT from what I remember.
Bro he turned Goku into a kid in Daima
Never said anything about GT
@@JordanrealYTHe says "The inaugural thing, the thing that kicked this all off was the original Dragon Ball with Goku as a kid. Then in GT he brings back Goku as a kid". That's pretty much verbatim what was said. Rewatch from 6:00 on.
Just subscribed notifications bell on!!!
Me too❤❤❤❤❤
It wasn't toriyama's idea to turn goku into a kid in GT. That was entirely Toei's idea.
I prefer the Anime Version of DBZ Goku honestly, makes his Character more layered
Well, to be fair with semi perfect sell. In the manga he had significantly less time to teleport back before the explosion then the anime made it seem
Respect 🙏
Thoughts on Dragon Ball Online?
Imo it kind of died along with the era of mmorpgs but I think it lives on in xenoverse
Great idea tho fasho
his passing doesn't make daima a better idea all the sudden, but lets see how it turns out
It's not really his idea in the first place, it's supposed to be TOEI's original db work. But Toriyama got involved and he enjoyed designing the characters for this one, even helping them out on how it the story should go. No matter how bad or good it is, I think I'll enjoy watching it just like how he enjoyed being involved with this project
Dragonball Super Manga is also like the Regular manga where it just isn't goku saving the day. Goku gets the gist of Ultra Instinct from watching Master Roshi Fight Jiren. Gohan eliminates Kefla as well. Not to mention the Z fighters vs Moro's henchmen, Vegeta vs moro (even though he lost). It did end up being goku to defeat moro but not without help fromthe Grand Kai and UUB.
You should try watching the anime in japanese or, if you really want to watch it dubbed, watch Dragon Ball Z Kai. You'll have a much more canonical experience than the Funimation dub.
I think you got mixed up between the anime and the English dub version of the anime
Because where are this "heroic speeches" the anime gave to goku ?
There is only one that comes to my mind ,its when uses the kioken against freeza where they changed the whole scene from the manga
What? You mean like only one lol
Nah. Sometimes they make Goku acts like super man
@@Goiaba308 any examples for dbz ?
Am not talking about the movies
@@sangoku876 Well here is a few:
Goku's speech to Frieza is pretty much "I am the Hope of the Universe" is pretty Superman, and where in the manga and Japanese it was more Goku telling Frieza he is the Super Saiyan reborn. Is one example and a huge one.
The speech Goku gives to Krillin about sparing Vegeta in the dub, is another best example. Goku tells Krillin how love, not hate, would change Vegeta just like it changed him and that is not what Goku said. Goku in the manga and Japanese just admitted he was selfish and that he wanted to fight Vegeta again...
@@babarshah6479 read my first comment
Db fans really can't read...
GT wasnt made by Toriyama.
Neither was Super.
What's your Frist favourite anima
Hunter hunter
@@TheeBreadShow that's fair I still need to finish hunter x hunter
Really good video I enjoyed it but this actually made me like dragonball even less. I’m just not a fan of the stupid protagonist trope
Wait, when goku fought against dabura?
10:27 LMAO Tien X Cell at the island like SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKOOOOOOUUUUUUHOOOOOOOOUUU
Manga Goku is the same as Anime Goku other than the filler stuff the Anime puts in.
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Click on video about dragonball get spoilers for hajime no ippo goddamn it
Ayoooooooo😅
Will you ever make videos about boruto?
Yes I will‼️
Goku never saves the day on his own in super, Beerus spares him. Whis turns back time in RoF. He stalemated Hit(U6v7 arc he wins later in the anime) Zeno saves the day in trunks arc, and he needed Freiza/17 to beat Jiren. Broly was beaten by gogeta, Moro he needed help by everyone, and Gas lost to Freiza
Would've had mixed reactions from the maga version the same as the animated ones. A lotta (really's Goku)😮💨
The movies are technically cannon since Akira said they take place in different dimensions
SOO
What's your fav anime of all time?
edit.
Mister! Dragon ball GT was not Akiras Work at all! He only created the name of that anime series. The rest is pure Toei's staff at work. Manga was created for GT after the show and I don't know for sure but it wasn't finished.
2edit.
Goku as far as I know has not the most screen time in the Anime, Gohan has.
In the manga Goku is featured more on the panels, but definitively Akira tried to put Gohan on the spot in the early Buu saga.
SUBBED
Thanks Brodie‼️‼️‼️
I think he was a hero tho
Toriyama clearly failed to create his vision properly
In the fight against nappa and Vegeta he didn’t fight coz he liked it he named all his friends who nappa killed against him and against Vegeta fighting him wasn’t top priority it was saving the earth sure he saved Vegeta bcoz he wanted a rival
In namek he saved the peanut gallery’s asses against ginyu force
In the cell saga he did not fight cell to see who wins but to test if Gohan could beat him and he trained Gohan to be stronger than him
Boo saga was when toriyamas writing deteriorated
this guy claims that he isnt in the manga, which i havent read so i cant say
@@zacbrown3797 he clearly is you should read it but if u don’t wanna buy it mangadex or mangafire is here to help pirate it
Stop unsubscribing me to this channel TH-cam!!!!!!😡😡
Yeah idk why it does that sometimes 😂😭
Yeah, does of us who were more into the manga than anime, have a totally different view of Dragon Ball... First time I truly realized was when I failed a super-easy (and boring) DB Quiz because the anime had Vegeta achieving Super Saiyan while crying like a baby while punching rocks in space, rather than while training like a real man on Earth.
And that's the tip of the iceberg, cause the anime took things differently for almost everything... Anime Vegeta (just to circle back for a moment) is a goddam B*TCH! gets even humiliated by Gohan, when they got back to Earth from Namek, despite the fact that Gohan is waaaay weaker than him, in the manga, and also performs so much better, against Original Form Freeza than Vegeta (in the anime Gohan fights Freeza one on one after Super Saiyan Goku is sent flying into the boiling ocean);
Another stupid change (out of the many) is when he comes back for a day to fight Buu, as soon as Goku tells him to fuse, he just says "F*ck you" and attacks Buu, even though he is greatly unmatched and he knows it, while in the manga he accepts almost immediately.
And don't get me started on the first fight Goku had against Vegeta, that fight had me stressed on the internet cause Goku was so damn outmatched, even before Vegeta transforms, but the anime made them closer in power just so they could stretch the fight, like having Goku running and jumping around in Kaioken, to escape Vegeta Ozaru, when in reality he was decrepit because he overcommitted with the Kaioken.
But even details like Gohan vs Dabra... was he Super Saiyan 2? Was he 1? Of course it was SS1, there was no doubt in the manga, and the fight was also, clearly, one sided and in favour of Dabra, but the anime did things it's own way and got everyone confused.
At.least Vegeta whooped Frieza, Goku black, and straight ko'd a god of destruction
1:44 Goku actually has a great win/loss ratio once you realize he won most of his fights in OG dragon ball
So no Goku actually wins quite a lot.
Bruh .. the fact you mentioned Hajime no Ippo... Rep
What is that
Naruto part 1 treated side characters as main characters up until a certain point in the series.
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I never really read the manga so i didnt know about this
Right
Akira was original gag manga artist. Like arale. He not ment do dragonball to blew up. He wanted to ens after frieza. Then after cell.
He prefer gag manga over action.
What make daima make sense
I'd suspect Toriyama watched Koyama's movie and that Goku is a bit more serious then his anime counterpart , he doesnt care much about fighting strong guys , he just wants to get things done and doesnt mind killing his opponnets.
That Goku is the Goku that some people want , a bit naive but will get things done and doesnt mind killing someone , Koyama's Goku is the Piccolo Daimao Goku but in adult form or the Goku version just before he died against Raditz.
Believe it or not Toriyama changed Goku alot of times, the first one is his clueless tiny self ,. fun and always seeking adventure , the second one in Piccolo Saga and the third one in the Piccolo Jr saga. 23rd Budokai.
He brought back his Piccolo Daimao Goku at the start of the saiyans arc/chapters , you will notice he isnt excited about fighting and teams up instead of fighting one on one .
After Goku dying Toriyama then went with the 23nd Budokai Tenkaichi self for having a fair fight and testing himself regardless of outcome.
So movie Goku must be the goat
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Gohan is way more of a hero than his father which makes me love him even more ngl🗣
Goku is still my hero tho.
As a self admitted simple-minded person.
Yeh.
Yeh, you right.
9:45 You saying this when Z was the exact same thing.... looks like not even by reading the manga you realize that Super made Goku lose more times than in Z and made characters help more than in Z.
The only thing you're right about is Saiyan's having more impact in the story but then again... THIS HAPPENS IN Z TOO
Yall blaming Super for problems that Z started
The anime community would raise pitchforks at someone who likes db as their favorite but then like one piece.
MC simple minded which makes the side cast have more time to shine? One Punch Man fits perfectly here
Damn so Goku’s whole personality in the anime isn’t cannon.. I need a min
🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣😭
He is canon just read the manga it’s just the same he isn’t ( simple or stupid and just care to get a better fight ) . ( I mean DBZ ) not dbs
I ain't hero of justice or anything like that -Goku
goku also lost the fight against piccolo jr but you know … plot armor
I miss the Z fighters, especially Tien, he had great potential in my opinion
I wouldn't say dragonball is simple, that being said simple doesnt mean bad and complex doesn't mean good, you can succeed at making a simple show and fail at making a complex show, and if dragonball is simple then it succeeded (for the freeza saga anyway 💀)
And often times something simple can evoke complexity that isnt there and allow speculation.
@@gtc1554yup
In my opinion DBZ anime is great, as you spoke of everybody in Z fighters had a shine time in the anime. Super on the other hand, makes buff very easy. Especially Super saiyans focus on your back and turn into one haha. Thinking android arc back in DBZ. :)
100% agree
You explained the anime a lot, but never really went in depth about the manga aside from ‘goku was more simple minded.’ Title is very misleading and I feel like you could’ve put more attention on the topic of the video. 3/10.
Goku isn’t a hero. He doesn’t even see himself as a hero, many people equate doing some good things to heroism.
Goku was definitely more noble and possibly heroic as a kid but in his adult life his selfish side takes center stage. For starters he had Krillin spare Vegeta a dangerous villain cause he wanted to fight him in the future.
Goku prolonged his fight with Frieza and nearly doomed the planet to test his own strength, he agreed with Vegeta to wait for the android attack instead of taking care of Doctor Gero then and there endangering the lives of civilians when he could’ve prevented it causing The Android/Cell Saga. When Goku knew Gohan only has the power to defeat Cell, he handed him a sensu bean to give Cell a fair fight prolonging the situation. Goku fought Majinn Vegeta knowing it could possible awaken Majinn Buu a great evil and to add insult to injury, He prolonged the battle against Majin Buu by letting him live in his super Sayian 3 form when he could’ve destroyed him at that time. Goku maybe pure of Heart in The Naive Oblivious sense and he may be a nice guy , he’s done noble things but Goku’s thirst for battle trumps any good aspects of his nature. He’s more of a noble warrior than a traditional hero, I know fans have their own interpretations especially due to the old Funimation dub, but that’s the character Akira Toriyama wrote.
"Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn't fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys... I've always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him."-Akira Toriyama
So toriyama just wanted to make an unlikeable protagonist then. Now I can see why some people prefer the funimation dub goku cause this one’s a POS lmao
@@Lowclasswarrior778fr. The way this dude is talking about goku makes it sound like he was supposed to be the other side of the coin to general tao or some shit.
2 minutes in and bro convince me to read the manga 😤👍🏾
Yessirrr‼️‼️ push the agenda 😂‼️
I'm sorry but claiming Dragon Ball is not "focused" on Goku or not "waiting for Goku" is just not true. And it wasn't true much before super existed.
If he won or not is not relevant.
What were they doing against the Saiyans? Waiting for Goku.
Why did Krilin, Gohan and Vegeta have to clear everyone in namek? Because Goku was still on his way.
Why was Piccolo fighting Frieza?
Because Goku was out of comission.
Why did Trunks kll Frieza? Because he thought Goku was late.
Why was Vegeta needed against 19 and 20? Because Goku was sick and couldn't be there.
Why was Piccolo the one fighting 17 and 18? Because Goku was waiting for Vegeta and couldn't be there.
Why were everyone trying to stop Cell from transforming? Because Goku was training.
Why did Gohan fight Cell? Because Goku planned for it to go that way.
How did Gohan finish Cell? With the help of Goku.
I'm not gonna do Buu, you guys know it. Dragon Ball is and always was about Goku. The secondary characters get to shine, yes, but the vast majority of the time, it isn't because their skills are better suited for the job, it's because Goku can't be there or is preparing to be there. The story always needs an excuse to keep Goku away. The whole story hinges on "since Goku isn't here, we have to make do".
Almost like he's the MC
I saw the anime first. Then i found the manga and realized how dif Goku was. I ended up liking the manga Goku way more
8:44 - I haven't seen it, but why are you dissing on Kai? I heard that it cuts the filler to make it more manga accurate??
That was the most well put, in-depth explanation of the Dragon Ball creation iceberg. Thank you sir!
Thank you for appreciating it🙏🏾
@TheeBreadShow This is one of the dumbest most misinformation pushing videos i've ever watch on dragon ball.
Basically an American trying to rewrite dragon ball using the MISCONCEPTION RHETORIC THAT HAS BEEN PUSHED BY AMERICANS FOR YEARS, FIRST OFF, GOKU HAS BEEN SAVING PEOPLE SELFLESSLY IN OG DRAGON BALL FOR YEARS, NOT PUTTING PEOPLE IN DANGER... OG DRAGON BALL IS DRAGON BALL NOT Z...
DRAGON BALL HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT GOKU, YOU ARE SIMULTANEOUSLY SKIPPING OG DRAGON BALL REVOLVING AROUND GOKU, GOING TO DRAGON BALL Z AND THEN LYING ABOUT HOW DRAGON BALL IS STRUCTURED.
DRAGON BALL SUPER IS THE WAY IT IS BECAUSE OF VEGETA, OG DRAGON BALL WOULD SETUP GOKU WITH NEW ANTAGONISTS TURNED FRIEND/ASSOCIATE THAT WOULD CREATE NEW RIVALRY DYNAMICS AND STORYLINES BUT WITH KEEPING VEGETA AS THIS PERMANENT RIVAL, THE HITS AND JIRENS NEVER CAN CREATE AN INTERESTING STORY WITH GOKU.
YOU RIPPED OFF ALL THRESE GARBAGE TALKING POINTS FROM VEGETARDS FROM YEARS BACK AND PUTTING THE "I READ THE MANGA SO MY BS IS ACTUALLY LEGIT " WITHOUT EVER PROVING IT.
I will say the super manga handles the characters way better, other characters do get a lot more love and time to shine like in the moro arc in the invasion of earth, or like kefla fighting gohan in the top, the manga treats goku way better than in the anime, he's more mature and hasn't gotten much dips in his character, besides about getting called a bad father by vegeta but thats only a few moments compared to the 100 in the anime, cuz as much goku is an anti hero (i do agree with that, i still love the z anime,but the manga does potray him much better) he does care about his family and friends deeply, though i cannot say how much he spends with them in the manga as I've only read the 1st vol.
Certain characters do have bad moments like gohan's moment after goku nearly getting killed in the moro arc, but we get one of the best fights with merged zamasu vs goku (that's only in the manga, and is one of the best fights), the top doesn't drag on it only goes for I think 2 volumes, Resurrection of F and the broly don't get an arc, though they are mentioned in the manga, the granola has good and bad moments, and the black arc is really good, tho black in this isn't as a good of an character as in the anime (you will see when if u read it), but the manga is much better even with its problems than the anime ever was, but simply the manga and anime are completely different from one another, Don't go reading into expecting the anime,it's 2 completely different takes of super.