For me, the most interesting result was the Framemeister. For years, people have been claiming all kinds of numbers ranging from 20-30ms, and that it has the same lag for both progressive and interlaced sources. Apparently before now no one had ever actually bothered to do proper lag testing on what was for a long time the most popular retro gaming upscaler.
Dude, this guy's content is incredible. I knew nothing about retro gaming and after watching this guy for a few hours I feel like I've gotten damn near college credits. Distills things so well, nothing he says is unnecessary.
@@RetroRGB Dude, I’ll shoot you $20 on your “donations” tab if you could link me to a Tv/monitor youd recommend for RetroTink Mini and NES, SNES and N64 that would have no latency. Gotta be under 14.5 inches tall and around $120 give or take (or cheaper if it made no difference.)
Well, no flat-panel will have "no latency". If you're looking for a small monitor, why not just pick up a 13" consumer-grade CRT with composite video inputs? It'll be much cheaper overall and the consoles you mentioned will look excellent. If you find one with S-Video inputs, you wouldn't even need a switch: SNES = S-Video N64 = Composite NES = RF
@@RetroRGB You know, I’ve thought about just sticking w CRT like you say. Durabrand 13inchs are on ebay for like $100. See any problem with one of those?
I'd get one locally if possible, but ANY CRT that's not an "HD CRT" would be perfect to use for those consoles. If you use light guns, get one with a curved screen.
Great video Bob! Look forward to your video on the GBS Control setup. I have the hardware, but just haven't got around to setting it up. I should do that.
Awesome as always Bob, this is the video about lag we all were waiting for. On thing to note: the HDMI input on HD Video Converter is not a passthru; it really digitizes the already digital HDMI signal (you can see the color saturation changes on the output, etc) adding those frames of lag you measured. Thanks again Bob!
I've used a scart to hdmi device because it was cheap and I played Super Metroid on it a bit. It was "playable" for me, but the lag was really really noticeable. I'm just an average gamer, no speed-running, etc. I love my retrotink 2x pro aside from the fact that my capture card has weird skipping with it. Excellent video, I've been waiting for this exact data for a long time just out of curiosity and glad to know the 2x pro doesn't supply additional latency.
Loved that you covered the gbs with cfw at the end. That was my first line doubler and eventually line tripler. I had it set to 720p@60 into a cheap vga2hdmi. Very nice for a cheap setup. It doesn't do svideo tho so I switched to retired extron scan converters.
This is a very important video. Thank you. I will be revisiting this video in the future as well. I currently do not use any processing. Everything is connected with their best output/cables. But that might change, as long as it's lag free. Also chapterized all the sections in the description. Also saying you were wrong, that takes a man. And you just did not know, no problem. Again thanks for all the testing, I hope you can test new scalers as they become available.
Given they're DIY projects from pretty common components, the price shouldn't be that bad if you just get the parts from China and make your own. Like I'm gonna ;-)
I've used the HD Retrovision wires since the first batch released and I haven't looked back. Then again I game on a CRT with component in, but still they even helped me with a unique problem I had and the wires look and sound perfect.
Hey Bob, is there a schematic of that sync combiner Ste did for you? That would be great to document and archive for people designing PCBs. Great video by the way!
I bought the generic SCART to HDMI converter a few years back, despite knowing it was bad, just because I had to try it and it was worse than I could've imagined. I'm not someone who is critical of a tiny bit of lag either (I still love my Framemeister, despite owning an OSSC). But, that generic converter made games, absolutely, unplayable. I don't know how anyone could say that they enjoy using it!
14:00 Yeah The Framemeister may be the king but the input lag especially in 480i (2 frames) may hurt the reputation of it. Hence I can see why the cheaper options have less or zero lag
As usual awesome video showing true testing numbers with a wide variety of scalers/alternate ways of hooking up retro stuff. I was on the arcade-projects forums a coupe of months ago. I was talking about using HD Retrovision cables along with my two Superguns. The Minigun supergun and the HAS. Man the grief I got from this one guy talking about how bad their cables are blah blah. Now I know arcade stuff can be finicky with different voltages and such.
Yeah. Also, the HD Retrovisions were never designed for use with arcade stuff, only the exact consoles they were built for. Kind of an unfair comparison.
I'm putting together a public games room. Wanting to use VGA flatscreens as I have to transport around 25 machines and fuuuuck bringing that many CRTs. Wanted some low-lag converters to give better signal than the shitty composite + old TV the previous games room was using. Your recent videos have turned me on to the existence of the custom firmware for GBS Control Scalers and I love it. Much cheaper, I can build it myself, and the lag/quality is more than acceptable for a public room. Thanks!
Good to know I made a good choice with buying a GBS with GBS Control for my Sega Genesis. Just need to finish putting together the cabinet that's housing everything.
Great Video! I recently got my Lag Tester and I wanted to test some crappy pound cables. Can you provide a link or something on exactly you how tested that cable w/ a lag tester?
Thanks! I went over the full chain in the video, but the one custom thing was wiring RGBs to a multi-out, so I can connect the pound cable. You'd need the Time Sleuth, connected to an HDMI to VGA converter. Then into a sync combiner like the HD152SCART, or Extron RGB interfaces. Then wire RGBs from that to the multi-out port. Then connect the Pound cable and go from there.
i keep telling people to not buy the framemeister because of the input lag but people argue with me telling me i cant feel the lag... its getting so old
If it doesn't scale, it should be zero lag. It might add some interference, but (in my opinion), that's not an "experience ruiner", just an annoyance. Stay tuned for better Wii plug & play solutions though :)
Thanks so much for this video. Who makes the HDMI to Component DAC at about 3:34, and do they make a composite version, or have you seen an HDMI to composite converter that has no latency?
Gotta start somewhere and I started with the crappy HD scart to hdmi converter. I thought it was cool and it was recommended by some youtubers out there. I knew about the OSSC and the framemeister at the time but back then they were out of my range. I bought the OSSC and I love it. Just need to tweak the advanced timings and games look and play like they did back in the day. Great video sir.
I use the Pound for OG Xbox combined with mClassic and take the 480p and it gets upscaled to 1080p. Seems okay to me with the supposed lag. I mean, I play Crazy Taxi 3 and do quite well in that game.. maybe I know how to adjust on the fly I guess 🤷🏻♂️. I’ve used lots of adapters and the only one that seemed bad to me was the PS2HDMI device. Now I did buy a custom Xbox HDMI Adapter from a FB mod group. I’d like to see if the lag is better on that. I don’t use it much because I’ve noticed slight (ever so slight) banding in the video capture.
That's different and your scenario is still probably zero lag. See, for consoles that are already 480p, the "HDMI Adapters" usually just convert analog to digital and it's almost always zero lag. The problem with most cheap converters is they hurt the signal a bit, either through interference or what you described. Still totally fine for someone on a budget though...just use it until you eventually get an HDMI mod or the Chimeric solution that I showed in my xbox video.
I'm working on a video to try and help people figure this stuff out, but that's actually a hard one to answer, because what is "best" to you? "I just want to play my N64 on my flat panel with no fuss"? = RAD2x "I want to dial-in pixel-perfect timings and set phase on each console for the sharpest picture possible" = OSSC "I have an RGB setup and just want to stream without issues" = RetroTINK 2x SCART "I don't own any original consoles, but still have my Genesis carts" = Mega Sg See what I mean? I'll give it a try though!
RetroRGB you raise an excellent point! I guess OSSC would be the best option if cost isn’t a factor and your looking for the best of everything. But is it better if paired with another device?
Are you saying that I finally play properly my old consoles without my CRT TV? I skipped Framemeister exactly because it adds one frame of lag! This is beautifull!
I honestly find it so curious the Pound SNES cable is like that considering the positive experience I've had with the PS2 one: I had bought it for myself after being impressed with how it felt playing on a friend's setup at a tournament I even bought some component cables for convenience of not having to switch HDMI cables around between my setups all the time, and after having trained on KOF XI a lot on the component cables, I felt no difference in playing with the Pound PS2 cable! Though I'm generally pretty confident in my ability to pick that stuff out, it does leave me wondering if my evaluation was actually accurate or not. I'd love to see the numbers!
Actually, the PS2 one is mostly just an analog to digital converter; Its the 16-bit scaling ones that are the issue. The PS2 cable is far from perfect, but I don't think it ads any lag at all. So, your ability to pick out lag was actually confirmed :)
Hi. Great channel! One question, please: will i have less inputlag connecting an usb adapter to an official wired ps1/ps2 controller to a ps3, compared to the offical ps3 blutooth controler ( especially to ps1 games on ps3 )?
I've been wanting to make my own upscaler for a while partially for fun and partially because i don't like any of the solutions I've seen, and i think it can be done with no more than a couple of scanlines of lag
will the nanoseconds still affect light guns? i couldn’t get a straight answer from retrotink support on wether the rgb2comp / comp2rgb would work with light guns
I'm using an Xbox One to passthrough the OSSC HDMI signal. It seems to me that the sync time for resolution changes on OSSC improve a lot with it. Could you test it and confirm? Also, could you see how much lag does this solutions adds up to the OSSC? Thanks in advance.
Hey Bob brilliant work. I personally can't afford scalers and am interested in how much lag these Wii2hdmi, PS2hdmi, XBox2hdmi and DC2hdmi adapters give..any chance of a test on those
Generally speaking, if those scale the image they'll be just as laggy as these bad solutions, however if they're simply analog-to-digital solutions they'll be zero lag. Some of them add interference and mess up the colors, but with zero lag added, so in my opinion they're great to hold you off until a better solution comes around. If you ever decide to invest in a scaler, you can connect the component video (or VGA) from all those consoles into something like an OSSC and get a great image.
@@RetroRGB Thanks Bob. I currently use the Portta component to HDMI for my older consoles and they work great. The DC however is used with a to HDMI cable. I haven't found a wii2hdmi or similar to run without interference.
the mini brand shows no lag but video signal is low, I get it converting vga to composite would not take advantage of the video quality of a graphic card, but it sucks I couldn't read the text on my 22 inches composite TV.
Forgive my ignorance, but I didn't get the top, middle and bottom part. Of course, the signal takes 0ms to be drawn on the top, but, on middle and bottom there's a significant difference. But in pratice, should we consider the top left reading only?
That's simply how long it takes a CRT to draw a full frame: 0 to start at the top left, 8ms at the middle-right (so 7ms at the middle-left) and then 16.5ms to get to the bottom right. Any numbers over that are lag added.
The weird thing about Pound cable is that the delay sort of... counts down one milliseconds at a time, then resets to a higher value at one point? It doesn't simply just vary and jump around. Very weird. Also, if I could make a request for this channel, could you perhaps test Kaico's PS2 to HDMI solution? There are zero analytical reviews of it, so its kind of difficult to know what it exactly does. To me it seems like a 2.0 version of the PS2 to HDMI adapters, but I have no idea if the video output is less noisy than on some of those adapters. One extra benefit it has over other such things is that it can toggle between component and RGB.
Unfortunately, Kaico has been stealing and reverse-engineering designs from the retro gaming scene, so I'll never buy a single one of their (most likely stolen) products.
@@RetroRGB Oh, that's interesting. I know they sell the standard PS2 to HDMI dongles too, but every generic company sells those, probably nothing to steal from that. What products have they stolen from?
Hey Bob solid video. Side question. I don't think it would change the results, or at least it wouldn't change them all that much, but do you know if the ambient temperature of the room would affect the results? Some of the equipment have chips that can get warm and I was wondering if they clock down if the temperature rises. I live in a warmer climate and also often will have my OSSC or whatever inside my entertainment center.
That's a really interesting question. I've seen OLED's register faster numbers after about 30 seconds, but I don't think that's heat-related. I've tested scalers after using them for hours and it never made a difference. I THINK the answer is "no, it won't affect it", but I'll keep paying attention just in case.
Hey Bob, I was wondering when we'd be able to see a video guide on installing a triple bypass mod on a Genesis model 1HD Graphics? Superb channel as ALWAYS!!
Excellent video for this kind of experiment! The Koryuu would've also been a nice test, 480i from that piece of hardware has been a little finicky from what I've seen. This is more of a specific question, but would you be interested in testing out a piece of scaling hardware called the Crestron HD Scaler? In the past I've seen a few TH-cam comments here and there saying it makes a good high speed scaling partner with the OSSC for people who have displays that don't take kindly to the OSSC's higher display modes. It costs far less than a DVDO, handles video switching really fast, can take both digital and analog signals and even deinterlaces interlaced video. Only bad part is that 240p is treated as 480i, but if you have an OSSC or RetroTink2X then that point is moot. I currently use one within a chain of a Koryuu and OSSC and it seems to work pretty well. I've played fast moving precision games like Zone of the Enders on PS2 or fighting games like Smash through it and I've had no noticeable issues, but it would be great to see some hard numbers. If you'd like, I'd be willing to send you mine just to test it out. Mine came with everything including the remote when I bought it so you'd be able to test all its functions. Might even make a good episode for you to post as a recommendation to other OSSC users if the results turn out good. Let me know and we can talk about it. See ya!
Have you done the Review for the GBS-8200 with the Custom Firmware? It looks soooo impressive. I am wanting to use computer CRT’s with VGA for my Cocktail arcade cabinets and eliminate as much lag as possible.
Hey, had a quick question about component extension cable. I’m currently running an HD Retrovision component cable from Dreamcast to JVC D-Series component input. I ordered the HD Retrovision Female to Male RCA Extension cable so I don’t have to keep unplugging and replugging into the very back of the D-Series. This way I can have the female end of the component cable at the front of the D-Series for easy access to switch between my other component consoles until I receive g-comp switch. my question is, will I have any effect in picture quality using the HD Retrovision extension cable? as im now using two 6’ component cables totaling a 12’ run vs one 6’ cable? thanks in advance!
So here's a question that might be odd but would two component switch boxes hooked to each other to create 6 inputs then output through a Retrotink 2x Pro create any input lag? I have a Psyclone component switcher with a Pelican HD switcher hooked to it with component cables. The output cables from the Psyclone are hooked to the Retrotink 2x Pro.
@@RetroRGB yep both don't upscale the image. The Pelican itself doesn't even use a power source. Quick off topic question. I'm gonna be modding my US Turboduo soon with a RGB board so that I can use component cables with it. I know the original Turbografx couldn't use the RGB board with the CD addon due to the expansion slot being occupied by the addon. My question is by adding a RGB board to a Turboduo instead will I be able to play CD games on the Duo while getting a RGB signal out through component cables?
Very informative video. Is there any other device as complete as the XRGB Mini Framemeister Upscaler? Meaning support for Composite, S-Video, Scart RGB and Component all from the same device? Maybe something that also includes support for VGA as well which is missing from the Framemeister?
No, however you can buy the OSSC & Koryuu for much less than a Frammeister and have everything you asked for. Or, just an OSSC & RetroTINK 2x: www.retrorgb.com/upscalers.html www.retrorgb.com/koryuu-transcoder-1st-look.html
@@RetroRGB I already have a Frammeister, that's why I asked lol. I was wondering if I could get an upscaler with less lag without having to get two separate devices which would make my setup even more messy. I hope someone makes a zero lag upscaler in the future with all the connections, including VGA. Thanks!
I tried one of the scart to hdmi boxes when I got back into gaming...it was in a return box back to Amazon within 20 minutes. Also, have you ever tried the OSSC as a lag tester? I've heard people talk about it once in a while, but never really understood how it worked.
Just got my Hyperkin cable for PS1/2 and damn there's lag, tested on Crash Bandicoot 3, really hard to play. Too bad I cant find Rad2x cable for PS1 anywhere on the Internet. I would definitely buy it.
2:48 "in the context of retro gaming, anything under 1 millisecond should be considered 0 lag, as no console can poll faster than that." Except light guns, obviously
Have you tested any of the Component-to-HDMI _converters_ (not scalers), such as the ones you find on Amazon made by Portta and AverMedia? I'm looking for 480p-1080p passthrough solutions for 6th and 7th generation consoles (especially if I want to stream PS3 games via Component, as the PS3's HDMI port has HDCP that can only be disabled by an HDMI splitter).
I didn't know anything about the gbs-control firmware! From the github page it says that it has "on demand motion adaptive deinterlacer that engages automatically and only when needed" motion adaptive deinterlace with low lag... seriously? I'm looking forward to your review, thanks Bob.
Check my Amazon link in the description. Some are currently out of stock, but should be coming back soon. Also, they're definitely not all the same and some add a bunch of lag, so definitely make sure to buy the ones linked, that I've previously tested. Their cases are slightly different, but they should be the same guts.
For me, the most interesting result was the Framemeister. For years, people have been claiming all kinds of numbers ranging from 20-30ms, and that it has the same lag for both progressive and interlaced sources. Apparently before now no one had ever actually bothered to do proper lag testing on what was for a long time the most popular retro gaming upscaler.
That's just a symptom of people deferring to perceived authority and blindly following them.
you deserve wayyyyy more views. These videos are so precise and informative.
Thank you!
That’s what I like about you Bob. You are never afraid to say you were wrong! Love all the information.
I loved you laugh while you were testing the SCART to HDMI box. Great touch 😆
That was my legit response. 100% NOT intentional. Funny, right :)
It was such a delightfully evil laugh that I couldn't help but laugh when I heard it 😆
@@RetroRGB I've seen the hardcore neo geo crowd using this as a solution. I can't imagine playing Metal Slug on this.
That laugh comes from Figure It Out Productions. Bob, did you actually play the damn game during your testing.
Yo, that Kawhi Leonard laugh when you tested the SCART to HDMI. Beautiful, my brother.
That laugh at 9:22 is the same one I make every time I open up my CD-I box.
Dude, this guy's content is incredible. I knew nothing about retro gaming and after watching this guy for a few hours I feel like I've gotten damn near college credits. Distills things so well, nothing he says is unnecessary.
Thanks very much!!!
@@RetroRGB Dude, I’ll shoot you $20 on your “donations” tab if you could link me to a Tv/monitor youd recommend for RetroTink Mini and NES, SNES and N64 that would have no latency. Gotta be under 14.5 inches tall and around $120 give or take (or cheaper if it made no difference.)
Well, no flat-panel will have "no latency". If you're looking for a small monitor, why not just pick up a 13" consumer-grade CRT with composite video inputs? It'll be much cheaper overall and the consoles you mentioned will look excellent. If you find one with S-Video inputs, you wouldn't even need a switch:
SNES = S-Video
N64 = Composite
NES = RF
@@RetroRGB You know, I’ve thought about just sticking w CRT like you say. Durabrand 13inchs are on ebay for like $100. See any problem with one of those?
I'd get one locally if possible, but ANY CRT that's not an "HD CRT" would be perfect to use for those consoles. If you use light guns, get one with a curved screen.
Seeing the GBS-C in your review is freaking awesome! THE HYPE IS REAL!
I can't wait for Bob's full review :-)
I'm a believer now as well!
I've been building a GBS-control scaler this week, was happy to see it in the video :)
I didn't even know that was a thing until this video. I need to that with mine
Great video Bob! Look forward to your video on the GBS Control setup. I have the hardware, but just haven't got around to setting it up. I should do that.
I did mine with a pi and raspian but this method might be easier
Awesome as always Bob, this is the video about lag we all were waiting for. On thing to note: the HDMI input on HD Video Converter is not a passthru; it really digitizes the already digital HDMI signal (you can see the color saturation changes on the output, etc) adding those frames of lag you measured. Thanks again Bob!
It's really cool to see the "Cosmic Effect" commenting here !!!
I've used a scart to hdmi device because it was cheap and I played Super Metroid on it a bit. It was "playable" for me, but the lag was really really noticeable. I'm just an average gamer, no speed-running, etc. I love my retrotink 2x pro aside from the fact that my capture card has weird skipping with it.
Excellent video, I've been waiting for this exact data for a long time just out of curiosity and glad to know the 2x pro doesn't supply additional latency.
Great video Bob. I’m still happy with my framemeister but it was nice seeing what’s out there. I’ll probably keep it until the ossc pro comes out.
Excellent work as always my friend, kudos!
Awesome video, thanks Bob for making such a great comparison between so many scalers.
Would love to see a updated video on this subject.
Loved that you covered the gbs with cfw at the end. That was my first line doubler and eventually line tripler. I had it set to 720p@60 into a cheap vga2hdmi. Very nice for a cheap setup. It doesn't do svideo tho so I switched to retired extron scan converters.
Fantastic job, man. So glad to see this and how you laid everything out. It's nice to have a reference video when discussing this with others.
This is a very important video. Thank you. I will be revisiting this video in the future as well.
I currently do not use any processing. Everything is connected with their best output/cables.
But that might change, as long as it's lag free.
Also chapterized all the sections in the description.
Also saying you were wrong, that takes a man. And you just did not know, no problem.
Again thanks for all the testing, I hope you can test new scalers as they become available.
Knocking it out of the park as always. Thanks for all the work you do Bob!
Fantastic video, thanks for the info! I would have loved to see the Eon products as well. Thanks again for doing this!
I made a comment on your last video about input lag. I appreciate the hard work on this video, well done!
Excellent video as usual. Thank you, Bob
That's one creepy Joker laugh
Great description 😆
contagious laughter for sure :D
So what you're saying is that I should get a GBS Control Scaler before the inevitable price hike.
when do you think that will be though.. around october???
boyke Wouldn’t know. Depending on what has been said a video might be around the corner for it. I’m sure the price would rise very soon after.
Given they're DIY projects from pretty common components, the price shouldn't be that bad if you just get the parts from China and make your own. Like I'm gonna ;-)
they mass produce them in China, I don't think the price will go up much.
@@souljastation5463 $400 on ebay.
Awesome Bob! Love having all these numbers shown.
I've used the HD Retrovision wires since the first batch released and I haven't looked back. Then again I game on a CRT with component in, but still they even helped me with a unique problem I had and the wires look and sound perfect.
Great job on all of the testing, Bob!
Hey Bob, is there a schematic of that sync combiner Ste did for you? That would be great to document and archive for people designing PCBs. Great video by the way!
agree! really interested in this cable! thanks!
Assume it's this one! www.retrorgb.com/building-a-passive-sync-combiner.html
One of your best videos. Keep it up RGBob!
I bought the generic SCART to HDMI converter a few years back, despite knowing it was bad, just because I had to try it and it was worse than I could've imagined. I'm not someone who is critical of a tiny bit of lag either (I still love my Framemeister, despite owning an OSSC). But, that generic converter made games, absolutely, unplayable. I don't know how anyone could say that they enjoy using it!
Epic video, Bob! Thanks a ton.
14:00 Yeah The Framemeister may be the king but the input lag especially in 480i (2 frames) may hurt the reputation of it.
Hence I can see why the cheaper options have less or zero lag
Great coverage. I keep the Framemeister around for video capture. Most capture devices don't play well with the OSSC.
The Framemeister is one of the best streaming solutions out there: It's compatible with everything! That's an excellent use for it.
Framister is an awesome pice of tech.
Awesome video Bob.
Great analysis! I really appreciate the effort
As a proud owner of both the Retrotink 2x Classic and the Retrotink 2x Pro, I'm proud to say that this was a combined $220 well spent!
Thanks for being thorough, Bob!
At 7:10 I'm guessing the TV signals aren't a problem because you don't have to interact with it?
As usual awesome video showing true testing numbers with a wide variety of scalers/alternate ways of hooking up retro stuff. I was on the arcade-projects forums a coupe of months ago. I was talking about using HD Retrovision cables along with my two Superguns. The Minigun supergun and the HAS. Man the grief I got from this one guy talking about how bad their cables are blah blah. Now I know arcade stuff can be finicky with different voltages and such.
Yeah. Also, the HD Retrovisions were never designed for use with arcade stuff, only the exact consoles they were built for. Kind of an unfair comparison.
I'm putting together a public games room. Wanting to use VGA flatscreens as I have to transport around 25 machines and fuuuuck bringing that many CRTs. Wanted some low-lag converters to give better signal than the shitty composite + old TV the previous games room was using. Your recent videos have turned me on to the existence of the custom firmware for GBS Control Scalers and I love it. Much cheaper, I can build it myself, and the lag/quality is more than acceptable for a public room. Thanks!
Great video. Still love my Framemeister. I don't notice any lag in real life gaming.
Good to know I made a good choice with buying a GBS with GBS Control for my Sega Genesis. Just need to finish putting together the cabinet that's housing everything.
Amazing! Excellent Work!
Awesome video Bob!!
I had to watch it twice to notice that everything fell down at 4:43 😆
Still happy with my Ossc 😊 kudos from belgium
That was quite the evil mastermind laugh
Just looking forward to the OSSC pro. Hope the settings are easy to deal with. Mostly want it for ps1 and up now.
Just wait for reviews.
Conclusion
Product avg Lag (ms)
RetroTINK2x SCART (same as RAD2x) 0
OSSC 0
Framemeister 18(480p)-34(480i)
Pound SNES Cable 42
LevelHike SNES Cable 74
SCART to HDMI Box 53-98
HD Retrovision cables 60
RetroTINK2x Pro 0
RGB2Comp 0
Comp2RGB 0
GBS Control Scaler 480i 24
GBS Control Scaler w/ GBS control 240p 4
GBS Control Scaler w/ GBS control 480i 0
GBS Control Scaler downscaler 7
Yes! Finally, the GBS control is getting some love. It is unbeatable in terms of bang for your buck.
wow I literally commented the same thing as you, without even reading your comment hahaha
Yes this is a video ive been waiting for
Great video Bob.... that laugh lol
I wake up everyday and remember I own one of those Scart To HDMI boxes and I feel like a lesser person each time.
Great Video! I recently got my Lag Tester and I wanted to test some crappy pound cables. Can you provide a link or something on exactly you how tested that cable w/ a lag tester?
Thanks! I went over the full chain in the video, but the one custom thing was wiring RGBs to a multi-out, so I can connect the pound cable. You'd need the Time Sleuth, connected to an HDMI to VGA converter. Then into a sync combiner like the HD152SCART, or Extron RGB interfaces. Then wire RGBs from that to the multi-out port. Then connect the Pound cable and go from there.
i keep telling people to not buy the framemeister because of the input lag but people argue with me telling me i cant feel the lag... its getting so old
There was a time when Framemeister was a great option. Once OSSC matured, though, it outperformed FM in price and speed. No reason to go back now.
I got a framemeister when it was basically the only game in town.
If they made this thing an interger line multiplyer within a boardered frame instead of a scaler, I would have pulled the trigger on getting one.
This video is a beaut! Exactly what I needed to see! And that laugh....bahahaha soooooo perfect
Really looking forward to the GBS-Control Review video. That thing's hot these days!
Thanks Bob @RetroRGB
Any chance you'd be able to test the Wii2HDMI? My new TV doesn't have component and I'm hoping it's reasonable...
If it doesn't scale, it should be zero lag. It might add some interference, but (in my opinion), that's not an "experience ruiner", just an annoyance. Stay tuned for better Wii plug & play solutions though :)
I haven't found one that doesn't add interference. I use the component cable connected to the Portta component to HDMI box and it's brilliant.
Great stuff Bob 👍🏻
Thanks so much for this video. Who makes the HDMI to Component DAC at about 3:34, and do they make a composite version, or have you seen an HDMI to composite converter that has no latency?
i think it is a portta? can you confirm?
Gotta start somewhere and I started with the crappy HD scart to hdmi converter. I thought it was cool and it was recommended by some youtubers out there. I knew about the OSSC and the framemeister at the time but back then they were out of my range. I bought the OSSC and I love it. Just need to tweak the advanced timings and games look and play like they did back in the day.
Great video sir.
Can't wait for ossc pro, looking forward to the rotation feature for my shmup arcade games. Currently using a frame Meister.
I use the Pound for OG Xbox combined with mClassic and take the 480p and it gets upscaled to 1080p. Seems okay to me with the supposed lag. I mean, I play Crazy Taxi 3 and do quite well in that game.. maybe I know how to adjust on the fly I guess 🤷🏻♂️. I’ve used lots of adapters and the only one that seemed bad to me was the PS2HDMI device.
Now I did buy a custom Xbox HDMI Adapter from a FB mod group. I’d like to see if the lag is better on that. I don’t use it much because I’ve noticed slight (ever so slight) banding in the video capture.
That's different and your scenario is still probably zero lag. See, for consoles that are already 480p, the "HDMI Adapters" usually just convert analog to digital and it's almost always zero lag. The problem with most cheap converters is they hurt the signal a bit, either through interference or what you described. Still totally fine for someone on a budget though...just use it until you eventually get an HDMI mod or the Chimeric solution that I showed in my xbox video.
wonderful new video. thank you.
out of curiosity, are you planning to do a video on that jamma interface / addon for the mister fpga?
Great video! Bob, make a video showcasing the BEST overall solution for use on an HD tv regardless of cost!
I'm working on a video to try and help people figure this stuff out, but that's actually a hard one to answer, because what is "best" to you?
"I just want to play my N64 on my flat panel with no fuss"? = RAD2x
"I want to dial-in pixel-perfect timings and set phase on each console for the sharpest picture possible" = OSSC
"I have an RGB setup and just want to stream without issues" = RetroTINK 2x SCART
"I don't own any original consoles, but still have my Genesis carts" = Mega Sg
See what I mean? I'll give it a try though!
RetroRGB you raise an excellent point! I guess OSSC would be the best option if cost isn’t a factor and your looking for the best of everything. But is it better if paired with another device?
Are you saying that I finally play properly my old consoles without my CRT TV? I skipped Framemeister exactly because it adds one frame of lag!
This is beautifull!
Thank you, this video was really helpful.
I honestly find it so curious the Pound SNES cable is like that considering the positive experience I've had with the PS2 one: I had bought it for myself after being impressed with how it felt playing on a friend's setup at a tournament
I even bought some component cables for convenience of not having to switch HDMI cables around between my setups all the time, and after having trained on KOF XI a lot on the component cables, I felt no difference in playing with the Pound PS2 cable!
Though I'm generally pretty confident in my ability to pick that stuff out, it does leave me wondering if my evaluation was actually accurate or not. I'd love to see the numbers!
Actually, the PS2 one is mostly just an analog to digital converter; Its the 16-bit scaling ones that are the issue. The PS2 cable is far from perfect, but I don't think it ads any lag at all. So, your ability to pick out lag was actually confirmed :)
Hi. Great channel! One question, please: will i have less inputlag connecting an usb adapter to an official wired ps1/ps2 controller to a ps3, compared to the offical ps3 blutooth controler ( especially to ps1 games on ps3 )?
really curious about the component to hdmi converter i use for my wii now, great video thanks for doing the work and posting your results.
If it's just analog to digital conversion, it should be zero lag.
@@RetroRGB oh cool thanks for the reply, yeah it's just a converter no upscaling or anything like that.
Thanks for documenting all of that! Is the equipment okay? I can almost hear the equipment fall and the words that must have followed in my mind.
Thank you...and luckily yes, the equipment was fine. I thought it was hilarious that it all stayed connected and still worked, so I left it in :)
@@RetroRGB You don't have to copy Linus Sebastian's schtick to have a great channel. ;)
I've been wanting to make my own upscaler for a while partially for fun and partially because i don't like any of the solutions I've seen, and i think it can be done with no more than a couple of scanlines of lag
will the nanoseconds still affect light guns? i couldn’t get a straight answer from retrotink support on wether the rgb2comp / comp2rgb would work with light guns
The nanoseconds won't affect light guns at all. They SHOULD work fine with both of the transcoders.
RetroRGB thank you so much! i’ll have to share my experience when i test it...
GBS-C on the come up!
I'm using an Xbox One to passthrough the OSSC HDMI signal. It seems to me that the sync time for resolution changes on OSSC improve a lot with it. Could you test it and confirm? Also, could you see how much lag does this solutions adds up to the OSSC? Thanks in advance.
Hey Bob brilliant work. I personally can't afford scalers and am interested in how much lag these Wii2hdmi, PS2hdmi, XBox2hdmi and DC2hdmi adapters give..any chance of a test on those
Generally speaking, if those scale the image they'll be just as laggy as these bad solutions, however if they're simply analog-to-digital solutions they'll be zero lag. Some of them add interference and mess up the colors, but with zero lag added, so in my opinion they're great to hold you off until a better solution comes around. If you ever decide to invest in a scaler, you can connect the component video (or VGA) from all those consoles into something like an OSSC and get a great image.
@@RetroRGB Thanks Bob. I currently use the Portta component to HDMI for my older consoles and they work great. The DC however is used with a to HDMI cable. I haven't found a wii2hdmi or similar to run without interference.
the mini brand shows no lag but video signal is low, I get it converting vga to composite would not take advantage of the video quality of a graphic card, but it sucks I couldn't read the text on my 22 inches composite TV.
Forgive my ignorance, but I didn't get the top, middle and bottom part. Of course, the signal takes 0ms to be drawn on the top, but, on middle and bottom there's a significant difference. But in pratice, should we consider the top left reading only?
That's simply how long it takes a CRT to draw a full frame: 0 to start at the top left, 8ms at the middle-right (so 7ms at the middle-left) and then 16.5ms to get to the bottom right. Any numbers over that are lag added.
The weird thing about Pound cable is that the delay sort of... counts down one milliseconds at a time, then resets to a higher value at one point? It doesn't simply just vary and jump around. Very weird.
Also, if I could make a request for this channel, could you perhaps test Kaico's PS2 to HDMI solution? There are zero analytical reviews of it, so its kind of difficult to know what it exactly does.
To me it seems like a 2.0 version of the PS2 to HDMI adapters, but I have no idea if the video output is less noisy than on some of those adapters. One extra benefit it has over other such things is that it can toggle between component and RGB.
Unfortunately, Kaico has been stealing and reverse-engineering designs from the retro gaming scene, so I'll never buy a single one of their (most likely stolen) products.
@@RetroRGB Oh, that's interesting. I know they sell the standard PS2 to HDMI dongles too, but every generic company sells those, probably nothing to steal from that. What products have they stolen from?
Was thinking of combining HD Retrovision cables with A Retrotink 2x Pro for my retro consoles. Any advise on that idea??
That's an excellent solution.
RetroRGB any advice on alter solutions
Hey Bob solid video. Side question. I don't think it would change the results, or at least it wouldn't change them all that much, but do you know if the ambient temperature of the room would affect the results? Some of the equipment have chips that can get warm and I was wondering if they clock down if the temperature rises. I live in a warmer climate and also often will have my OSSC or whatever inside my entertainment center.
That's a really interesting question. I've seen OLED's register faster numbers after about 30 seconds, but I don't think that's heat-related. I've tested scalers after using them for hours and it never made a difference. I THINK the answer is "no, it won't affect it", but I'll keep paying attention just in case.
Hey Bob, I was wondering when we'd be able to see a video guide on installing a triple bypass mod on a Genesis model 1HD Graphics? Superb channel as ALWAYS!!
Excellent video for this kind of experiment! The Koryuu would've also been a nice test, 480i from that piece of hardware has been a little finicky from what I've seen. This is more of a specific question, but would you be interested in testing out a piece of scaling hardware called the Crestron HD Scaler? In the past I've seen a few TH-cam comments here and there saying it makes a good high speed scaling partner with the OSSC for people who have displays that don't take kindly to the OSSC's higher display modes. It costs far less than a DVDO, handles video switching really fast, can take both digital and analog signals and even deinterlaces interlaced video. Only bad part is that 240p is treated as 480i, but if you have an OSSC or RetroTink2X then that point is moot. I currently use one within a chain of a Koryuu and OSSC and it seems to work pretty well. I've played fast moving precision games like Zone of the Enders on PS2 or fighting games like Smash through it and I've had no noticeable issues, but it would be great to see some hard numbers. If you'd like, I'd be willing to send you mine just to test it out. Mine came with everything including the remote when I bought it so you'd be able to test all its functions. Might even make a good episode for you to post as a recommendation to other OSSC users if the results turn out good. Let me know and we can talk about it. See ya!
Have you done the Review for the GBS-8200 with the Custom Firmware? It looks soooo impressive. I am wanting to use computer CRT’s with VGA for my Cocktail arcade cabinets and eliminate as much lag as possible.
th-cam.com/video/fmfR0XI5czI/w-d-xo.html
RetroRGB Thank You!
Hey, had a quick question about component extension cable. I’m currently running an HD Retrovision component cable from Dreamcast to JVC D-Series component input. I ordered the HD Retrovision Female to Male RCA Extension cable so I don’t have to keep unplugging and replugging into the very back of the D-Series. This way I can have the female end of the component cable at the front of the D-Series for easy access to switch between my other component consoles until I receive g-comp switch. my question is, will I have any effect in picture quality using the HD Retrovision extension cable? as im now using two 6’ component cables totaling a 12’ run vs one 6’ cable? thanks in advance!
Good question. You won’t see any quality loss with the HD Retrovision extension. In fact, you could use two and it would still be the same :)
@@RetroRGB your the best, thank for the self at ease brother!
So here's a question that might be odd but would two component switch boxes hooked to each other to create 6 inputs then output through a Retrotink 2x Pro create any input lag? I have a Psyclone component switcher with a Pelican HD switcher hooked to it with component cables. The output cables from the Psyclone are hooked to the Retrotink 2x Pro.
As long as they're just a switch and don't scale the image, it should be zero lag.
@@RetroRGB yep both don't upscale the image. The Pelican itself doesn't even use a power source. Quick off topic question. I'm gonna be modding my US Turboduo soon with a RGB board so that I can use component cables with it. I know the original Turbografx couldn't use the RGB board with the CD addon due to the expansion slot being occupied by the addon. My question is by adding a RGB board to a Turboduo instead will I be able to play CD games on the Duo while getting a RGB signal out through component cables?
This channel is important.
Very informative video. Is there any other device as complete as the XRGB Mini Framemeister Upscaler? Meaning support for Composite, S-Video, Scart RGB and Component all from the same device? Maybe something that also includes support for VGA as well which is missing from the Framemeister?
No, however you can buy the OSSC & Koryuu for much less than a Frammeister and have everything you asked for. Or, just an OSSC & RetroTINK 2x: www.retrorgb.com/upscalers.html
www.retrorgb.com/koryuu-transcoder-1st-look.html
@@RetroRGB I already have a Frammeister, that's why I asked lol. I was wondering if I could get an upscaler with less lag without having to get two separate devices which would make my setup even more messy. I hope someone makes a zero lag upscaler in the future with all the connections, including VGA. Thanks!
Since you built a custom setup to test SNES, can you also test the Eon Super 64 and tell us how much it adds with and without slick mode?
I tried one of the scart to hdmi boxes when I got back into gaming...it was in a return box back to Amazon within 20 minutes. Also, have you ever tried the OSSC as a lag tester? I've heard people talk about it once in a while, but never really understood how it worked.
EXTREMELY good video
Just got my Hyperkin cable for PS1/2 and damn there's lag, tested on Crash Bandicoot 3, really hard to play. Too bad I cant find Rad2x cable for PS1 anywhere on the Internet. I would definitely buy it.
RetroGamingCables UK is one good seller. It's just the stock that's the problem.
Would you happen to know what the DAC chip is in that hdmi to component converter?
There's a few that work okay, but that particular one is from the company Lontium.
2:48 "in the context of retro gaming, anything under 1 millisecond should be considered 0 lag, as no console can poll faster than that."
Except light guns, obviously
Have you tested any of the Component-to-HDMI _converters_ (not scalers), such as the ones you find on Amazon made by Portta and AverMedia? I'm looking for 480p-1080p passthrough solutions for 6th and 7th generation consoles (especially if I want to stream PS3 games via Component, as the PS3's HDMI port has HDCP that can only be disabled by an HDMI splitter).
Those are exactly what I showed in this video and are zero lag.
I didn't know anything about the gbs-control firmware! From the github page it says that it has "on demand motion adaptive deinterlacer that engages automatically and only when needed" motion adaptive deinterlace with low lag... seriously?
I'm looking forward to your review, thanks Bob.
This video tickles my nerd-bone. Thanks!
Could we get a model number for the HDMI to VGA DAC? Or are they all pretty much the same? Please and thank you!
Check my Amazon link in the description. Some are currently out of stock, but should be coming back soon. Also, they're definitely not all the same and some add a bunch of lag, so definitely make sure to buy the ones linked, that I've previously tested. Their cases are slightly different, but they should be the same guts.
@@RetroRGB Thanks for the tip! I didn't realize you had that Amazon list at the bottom. I just picked up the Portta HDMI to VGA.
How about the hyperkin hdmi mega drive lag? Can you test it please?