If you know of any other game from the pre-HD era (anything BEFORE GC, DC, PS3, Xbox) that cuts off gameplay in 5x mode, please list that game here. To be clear, I'm talking about GAMEPLAY!!! I'm NOT talking about title screens, or menu's, unless the menu is completely unusable in 5x mode. Also, the specific problem I'm looking for are games that are cut off withOUT adjusting the height. Yes, I realize it's kind of a pain on the OSSC, but it's possible...and it's super easy on the MiSTer, GBS-C, CPSHDMI and pretty much all scalers coming out this year. All comments not related to this will be deleted, just to keep things flowing (sorry). Also, for the millionth time, the ONLY concern is GAMEPLAY, like I demoed with the arcade game towards the end of this video! Example: Cutting into a few pixels of a lifebar - but you can still see your life status - is something I've always run into with CRT's and is NOT an example of gameplay being affected.
As far as gameplay, I think I've only encountered issues with vertical scrollers on the NES that use all 240 lines. Ships could be flying around down there, and you wouldn't know until they clipped the back of your ship. Kid Ikarus is another troublesome game on the vertical stages, where platforms can still be usable below the CRT bezel, only you won't know until you happened to luckily land on one instead of game over.
Many Amiga games made in Europe targeted a 320*256 resolution before overscan and some used the Overscan for a 288 vertical resolution. Lionheart, Turrican 3, Shadow of the Beast 3, SWOS, Cannon Fodder and Flink come to mind
@@jengelenm I've checked and some don't. They use a HUD at the bottom and move it up into the safe area of the screen, and your ship isn't allowed to move down past the HUD.
@@drdroop2163 I want 7x vertical with 8x horizontal. That makes all 256 res modes in those various old consoles have perfect CRT correction, but with the added benefit of perfectly sharp pixels on vertical and hoirzontal.
@@kdkseven Yep. Simply turn off Super GB borders and it will look great. Also set the OSSC to 8:7 in the 256 optimal timing mode (if you use optimal timing). This will force the same aspect ratio as the original handheld.
None of this is relevant to me as I'm not the target demographic but I watched the whole thing just because of how informative it was. I actually really enjoyed this video lol
Perfect explanation. On Analogue products I’m still a sucker for 4.5X though thanks to the excellent interpolation built in. No tearing, no shimmer, no info lost. You can crop borders on the fly in any resolution too.
@@emiliofahr504 Lemme jump in here. Not good. Analogue consoles just don't have good scanlines. The OSSC on the other hand has the best scanlines I've seen. Had the OSSC next to my CRT and looked back and forth and I gotta say... the OSSC looked pretty, pretty, prettay good.
Great video Bro. This is exactly why I buy "PDP" panels ( Public display panels) They are mainly used in commercial premises like theatres, Cinemas, Fast food stores etc. They give the opportunity to scale the image in much finer increments than the standard consumer variants found on the market. It really aggravates Me that modern consumer flat panels sold in most stores never have the opportunity to do this. The pre fixed aspect ratio zooms on them suck PDP panels are awesome as you can tailor the height and width to your exact requirements.
Great video! Been using 5x mode at 1200p ivia OSSC on my 4k TCL set for a while, and use the TV's built in zoom to fill the screen a bit more. Looks fantastic!
5x mode is great for NTSC games and resolutions, however for PAL games that take full advantage of 576i then you may get heavy cut off for the top and bottom of the screen. Often there won't be a happy median as a result. As RetroRGB is NTSC focus we wouldn't expect them to cover it, but it does need a mention. It really depends on the game and if it was optimised for PAL or not, as to if you should use 5x mode.
While this information may not be useful to me because I don’t play retro games anymore, the information is very clearly explained, and even someone with a simple brain like mine could understand it. Good video.
I think the most confusing thing about scalers is removing the link in my brain that says 5x240=1200 therefore the scaler will output 1200p. Obviously this is not true, yes for a 240p signal the scaler is going to 1200p in 5x mode, but it's only sending 1080 of the horizontal lines to the display and not a 1200p signal.
Wait.. doesn't it still output 1600x1200 in a 1920x1080 window? (Leaving like 10%.. or 5% up top 5% down below cut off?) Which is typically fine regardless... But in my 5X I still slightly decrease the V scaling the ensure I'm retaining any necessary visual data at the expense of some minor aspect ratio adjustment.)
Great explanation! The only thing that stood out as missing to me was no mention of scanlines. The main reason I've stuck with a 3x (720p) scale is because scanlines looked pretty bad at 5x on both the Framemeister and the OSSC (though interestingly, 5x scanlines don't actually look too bad on the MiSTer).
I just got a SuperNt the other day and have been wondering… everyone seems to suggest the 720p setting for use with scan-lines, and it does look better, but are you losing anything by going with 720p vs. 1080p? Or is it all basically a wash?
If you can find a way to mess with the 5x mode's resolution output signal and switch between avi/hdmi/hdmi(yuv) and set with your tv's normal/pc modes while changing aspect ratio, you may find a setting that will 5x scale without the need for cutoff and have scanlines on screen evenly. It's something to do with the tv's scaler that can be fooled, but it takes a lot of fiddling around just to find where it will work.
@@kdkseven You do lose some sharpness by having your TV upscale from 720p rather than 1080p, though both scale evenly to 4K, so it's not a massive difference on my 4K TV. But yeah, I would rather lose a little bit of sharpness over having funky-looking scanlines. (Some people might even prefer that touch of extra softness, though I'm not really that person.)
Never understood this. Scanlines in 1080p 5x look fine to me. They can indeed be uneven if you're not using 5x, or if your TV does not perfectly match the aspect ratio, but otherwise I see no advantages for the 720p mode.
Nice. Some related notes: 1. Nearest Neighbour and integer scaling are not synonyms, integer scaling is a special case of Nearest Neighbour. Moreover, using Nearest Neighbour is not the only way to do integer scaling, it’s just a widely available hardware-accelerated way. 2. 4K is much better than FHD in terms of screen-space usage when integer-scaling 224p: with 4K displays, height loss is 2.5 times lower than with FHD displays: 6.7% instead of 17%. On 8K displays, height loss is just 1.5%. In this regard, computers combined with emulators are beyond competition because retro consoles, HDMI game-console mods, and scalers are typically limited to FHD or, rarely (e.g. MiSTer with overclocking), QHD.
OMG RETRO RGB ROBERT! Look man I don't watch your in depth pixel scale technical analysis for technical analysis; I watch it for explosions, loud sounds, and shiny colors!
@@MichaelM28 All my videos are released early to subscribers before going public. This is both as a courtesy and because I'm lucky enough to have some amazing supporters that sometimes catch mistakes before they go public.
One thing to note with the ossc's 5x is that changing the res outputs from avi/hdmi/hdmi(yuv) and between your panel's normal and pc modes will get the up to 1200 lines to even out for scanline use, but it takes a great deal of fiddling till you find it and you may have to jump around on the tv's aspect ratio as well.
The only resolution I use for the RetroTINK 5X bcuz Over and Under makes the 5X/4X scale more uniform than Fill... then other resolutions above or beyond 4K or 720p didn't convinced me enough, so 1080p for me is the standard for my 5X PRO
Akchually **insert here example so specific about a single game with a single type of tv in a single country** 🤓 lol As usual super educative! Keep it coming man!
Appreciate the overview on 5x. I still prefer 4x for 1080p monitors though. I'd rather not be messing with settings between different games and I've never minded black borders. And since my only TV is 4k I'll be using 3x on that or 9x if something gets released.
Can I ask why you’d stick to 3X? I know that’s a perfect integer of 4K in theory but almost no Tv’s do integer (nearest neighbour) scaling so in my experience the higher the resolution you can feed a 4K tv the sharper the result.
@@jameslarham5936 If I did 4x it would still be upscaling 1080p up to 4k, only give me 8x total, and the image quality isn't any better. 3x 720p upscaled to 4k doesn't look any worse and gives full screen height, at least with the TV I have both have decently crisp pixels.
@@WilhelmDriscoll if it gives the result you want then go for it! Are you using an OSSC? Have you tried 5x with the 1200p setting? Works great on my 4K OLED, fills the screen vertically and is super sharp.
I have been experimenting with 1200p on my PS1Digital, and so far I found that it works best for sprite based games. 3D polygonal games still work better on 960p
I love my Hi-Def NES-modded Famicom AV. But the lack of 5x vertical scaling is a bummer. This is why I mostly use it on a PC CRT, with unbelievably good results.
Great video Bob. So if I'm getting this right, 5x makes a standard 240p image, 5 times bigger. Adjusting it to almost fit on a 1080p display. It doesn't stretch or smooth out the original output image. Taking advantage of a large flat panel with higher pixel rate. Utilising the otherwise black boarders, unused pixels.
If you're someone that links to tinker with settings, a high end 1080p/1440p scaler is a must. I have both the Retrotink 2x Pro and 5x Pro, and the 5x Pro is so so much better in every way. Well worth the money. Plus the 5x recently got some new FW which allows a 4k mode, albeit stuck at either 24/25hz, but that will still work very well on quite a few N64 games. Think Zelda, that game can sometimes dip into the teens for FPS. Outside of that, the 1440p mode on my G1 OLED looks amazing. I've tested it with my Famicom and NES, SNES and super famicom, and all of them look great in the 1440p mode with Gen Frame Lock and VRR. There should be a 4k scaler sometime in the next 1-2 years as well, based on some of the comments I've been reading by some of the developers of various scalers. Although that may depend on how easy it is to get PCBs/FPGA boards. Great video explaining the 5x modes, especially with how re-centering via vertical tinkering can fix most of the screen issues.
I tried 5x on MiSTer and didn't like the cut-off. Playing on a flat panel is different enough for me to not stress over replicating the experience of a CRT on one. It's great to have the option though!
I wish 2048x1152 monitors were more common, they'd be great for 5x! A few exist, from Dell, Samsung and Acer ~2009 And 1152 being double 576 makes it even more interesting for me as a PAL gamer who plays mostly ps2 and gamecube- motion adaptive deinterlacing + 2x nearest neighbour might look awesome at 1152p
I have no idea why, but my screen just will not keep sync at 1080p. (and MiSTer recently started detecting it through EDID) That was annoying. both that I had to swap back to 720p, and I guess I don't get to play at my monitor's native 1080p :(
Great video and for the most part I agree with you Bob. Most of the 8bit and 16bit games do look better in 5x mode without cutting of important information during gameplay. With PS1 and Saturn games (NTSC) its a mixed bag. My main problem with 5x is the TV compability especially when you are using specific resolution settings for optimal timings (OSSC). For example 320x240p 5x Line does not work for N64 games with my OLED C9 TV which is known for his high compability with different resolutions.
The reason why I typically use 3x instead of 5x is because scanline effects seem to look better on 3x. I’m wondering if this is unique to the Framemeister though as that is what I’m using.
Correct, how scanlines look is the result of the scaler, not the resolution. I didn't mention that, cause the new scalers being released this year should all have much better scanline support.
Hey Bob, do you remember when we were in the digital transition and didn't have any reliable scalers around at the time? Trying to convert anything to vga was a nightmare and it seems nobody has ever done a proper overview on that yet. Foduh was just about one of the only few people we had to rely on at the time too, buying and testing all the scalers he somehow managed to get his hands on.
Recorded this the same day as your part on the MLiG? Anyways, just bought the component adapter you recommended on your website, ordered OEM component cables for the OG Xbox (just the cable form) so I can drop the Pound adapter. It works well for me but I want the best visual I can get without the HDMI mod and assure lag free as well. Can’t wait to test it out! Thanks for what you do!!
My Sony KDL-40w705c (fullhd 2015) works very well with SD (sms and md are really good), long live Scart RGB and Component. On the other hand x2 only with the OSSC unfortunately. It is only with the EDGE DVDO that the x5 passes but with the problems that go with it (Inputlag for example and the upscaling less good than that of my TV, normal because the Edge is old). I would love a LG CX so much :p
@@ismiismael no problem, me too for english xd 240/480p nice, just a ps2 (with or not ossc) is medium. My dreamcast with cheap vgabox (retrobit) is good (i dream for a kuro plus).
I was wondering about lag. Suppose I have a scaler that can output 480p, 720p, 1080p, 1200p, and 1440p, all with zero lag. If I'm using a 4k TV, would this TV introduce different levels of lag, depending on what resolution it is getting from the scaler? Thank you for another very informative video!
In all my testing, there's only been a few milliseconds of difference between resolutions. Never enough to actually affect gameplay. Excellent question though and I should have mentioned it in the video!
I started playing with line5x a few months ago. My 1080p Vizio TV doesn't agree with the 5x signal from my N64 via the OSSC, no matter how hard I tweak the timings, but SNES looks freakin amazing.
Scan lines are essentially broken on 5x with PS1Digital, Analogue Super Nt, and Analogue Mega Sg. The dark simulated scan lines will bisect scaled raster lines no matter what settings you choose, even 1200p. Obviously, that’s not even possible on a CRT.
Some good ideas here for using 5x, like for Sonic... but I mainly prefer 4x. My TV is big enough that the 4x scales to approx the same as a 32 inch CRT would display, so I'm happy enough with that. I mean, 5x simply makes it a bit too big for my liking. I guess it all depends how far you sit from your TV etc. But for Sonic, I'll do 5x.
It would be nice if they came out with more upscalers that gave the option for composite dithering. I was into those perfect pixels at first, but some games that use composite dithering effects look like crap when you do that.
Totally depends on the scaler, which is why I didn't cover them in this video. That would deserve a totally separate video on it's own and I'd want to wait for the new stuff that's coming out this year.
I have a Samsung 1080 HD TV. Everything fits perfectly on my TV. The sides are black. Well I see improvement in the quality of the picture somehow with these devices?
You just saved me a ton of money. No way am I cutting off any parts of the image! I just bought a Rad2x and thought I might be missing out, but I’m OK with it now. It’s too bad there’s no solution like on PC emulation: nearest neighbor scaling but full screen, with slightly non-square pixels or whatnot. Yeah you might get some pixel crawl with movement or other artifacts, but you’re not missing part of the game and it stays razor sharp for the most part.
Thats cool the retro tink allows you to ajust the image. Maybe add that feature for the MiSTer. maybe put profiles for that feature. Most people use same packs so in most cases it should be ok.
Great video, but can I ask which capture card you are using to grab this footage? I cannot get any of capture cards (all Elgato) to play nice with my OSSC running at 5X, whereas 3X works without any problems. I tried looking at your RetroRGB Amazon page but didn't see any capture cards listed there. Thanks!
me: oh man I'm really glad bob is making this video because I haven't really understood the hype about 5x Bob: now 5x scaling may cut into the coin counter in Sonic me: excuse me the *what* counter
Hi RGB. I recently acquired an OSSC and haven’t a clue what I’m doing with it lol. Been playing mainly Saturn and Dreamcast. When I select, say, x5 on the OSSC the image doesn’t shift like you have shown. Is that normal, am I doing something wrong? I’m using a 4K LG TV. Thanks
Have you done a comparison or can you do one between MiSTer and original hardware in terms of picture quality? I've noticed that MiSTer oftentimes looks better, but have not seen a real comparison.
For SNES, 4.5x (with 4:3 AR)with interpolation is the sweet spot imo. 4.5x fills the image to almost all the way to top and bottom of screen(More that 4x but also not cutting off bits like 5x), and interpolation fixes shimmering caused by non-integer scaling. Im using Analogue Super Nt fwiw.
If you aren’t using an integer scale why stop at 4.5 and nearly fill the screen? Just use the Super NT’s ability to freely adjust and fill it top to bottom. And obviously widen it slightly to maintain the correct AR.
Haven't watched the video, but HDMI by spec (albeit optionally) supports pixel repetition modes that have a horizontal resolution of 240p/288p or 480i/576i (Video ID codes 10 - 13 and and 25-28, NTSC and PAL respectively), with a a very high horizontal (2880) resolution where the pixel can be repeated 1 - 10 times by the display itself. In case it's unsupported, there's no law that says you can't repeat pixels on the encoder side - the 1440 pixel wide 240/288p modes with fixed 2 pixel repetition should be standard. I don't understand why those modes aren't used by any of the encoders...
Yeah I mostly use 1080p 5x myself, but with some of the FirebrandX profiles I found that the 1080p 5x is straight up not recognized by my TV, although 1200p mode works perfect.. it’s strange, can’t think off the top of my head which ones, I’d have to double check but it’s only 1 or 2
@@RetroRGB I kid, I kid. My wife and I did a let's play with Sonic where we made fun of our selves on the subject: th-cam.com/video/IjiEwiClKec/w-d-xo.html
Hi Bob, sorry to ask you another question I just bought a native 1440p monitor Do you still recommend 5x mode? Or would it be better to use native 1440p?
Great question! Without seeing it in person, my guess is running in native 1440p would be best. But definitely try both and see, as stuff like this is very dependent on the display itself.
They both look great and I love them both The 5x mode still takes advantage of the larger screen size, but at 1440p the CRT filters look better and that's why I haven't been able to decide
Totally depends on the game. Some PS2-era games have black bars on the top and bottom anyway, so "1080p (Over)" mode would be the best choice. Other games are still designed for a lot of overscan, so you won't cut off the hud on the top or bottom, but you *would* loose some of the top and bottom of the screen. So, it's really what looks best for that game on your TV: Gaining more width, while retaining proper aspect ratio at the cost of top & bottom info... ...or just using 1080p Fill and getting the full graphics top to bottom. I'd try it on a per-game basis and see what looks best to your eyes. There's no wrong answer for this one :)
Thanks for your response Bob. But then there wouldn't be problems with scaling from 480i and 480p to 1080 over? For example, pixels not aligned correctly?
Nope. Give it a try and see...I think you'll sometimes be pleasantly surprised with how good it looks. And other times you'll switch back to 1080p (Fill) :)
Thanks Bob Excuse me one last question Do you know why the scanlines look strange when you use 1080 over with 480p and 480i signals? in 1440p they look incredible
Still don't have a ossc or something similar but wouldn't this be pretty different for pal video? Seems a lot of discussion are happening exclusively around ntsc resolutions (not surprised of course).
I've found the 5x scaling on my OSSC stretched the image to fill the 16:9 screen so I've often stuck to 3x scaling instead, which maintains the correct aspect ratio (without having to adjust the TV). If anyone knows how to correct this for 5x on an OSSC, please let me know 👍
Hi, what are the few best Retrotink or Retro Gaming Cables devices to use with the old original Nintendo NES? I am having hard time to find a clear answer. Thank you
If you know of any other game from the pre-HD era (anything BEFORE GC, DC, PS3, Xbox) that cuts off gameplay in 5x mode, please list that game here. To be clear, I'm talking about GAMEPLAY!!! I'm NOT talking about title screens, or menu's, unless the menu is completely unusable in 5x mode. Also, the specific problem I'm looking for are games that are cut off withOUT adjusting the height. Yes, I realize it's kind of a pain on the OSSC, but it's possible...and it's super easy on the MiSTer, GBS-C, CPSHDMI and pretty much all scalers coming out this year.
All comments not related to this will be deleted, just to keep things flowing (sorry). Also, for the millionth time, the ONLY concern is GAMEPLAY, like I demoed with the arcade game towards the end of this video! Example: Cutting into a few pixels of a lifebar - but you can still see your life status - is something I've always run into with CRT's and is NOT an example of gameplay being affected.
As far as gameplay, I think I've only encountered issues with vertical scrollers on the NES that use all 240 lines. Ships could be flying around down there, and you wouldn't know until they clipped the back of your ship. Kid Ikarus is another troublesome game on the vertical stages, where platforms can still be usable below the CRT bezel, only you won't know until you happened to luckily land on one instead of game over.
Wouldn’t all vertical shooters be affected? Since you detect the enemy at a later time...
Many tate games (i.e. donpachi) suffer with any sort of cropping.
Many Amiga games made in Europe targeted a 320*256 resolution before overscan and some used the Overscan for a 288 vertical resolution. Lionheart, Turrican 3, Shadow of the Beast 3, SWOS, Cannon Fodder and Flink come to mind
@@jengelenm I've checked and some don't. They use a HUD at the bottom and move it up into the safe area of the screen, and your ship isn't allowed to move down past the HUD.
Bob has now forced me to start using 5x scale mode.
Just wait till you hear about 6x!
@@drdroop2163 I want 7x vertical with 8x horizontal. That makes all 256 res modes in those various old consoles have perfect CRT correction, but with the added benefit of perfectly sharp pixels on vertical and hoirzontal.
@@RedArremer Would that be good for the Super GameBoy to get the actual GameBoy part of the image to fill the screen as much as possible?
@@kdkseven Yep. Simply turn off Super GB borders and it will look great. Also set the OSSC to 8:7 in the 256 optimal timing mode (if you use optimal timing). This will force the same aspect ratio as the original handheld.
My new device coming out in August will support 10X. All these devices in this video are shitty compared to mine.
This video could be titled "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Scaling But Were Afraid to Ask".
For real
Thank you Bob for all the hard work you put into making these videos. Information is POWER! Love the retro community.
Knowledge is power
It grows like a flower
None of this is relevant to me as I'm not the target demographic but I watched the whole thing just because of how informative it was. I actually really enjoyed this video lol
Thanks very much!
I’ve been spoiled with this fantastic functionality on Analogue consoles for the past several years.
Perfect explanation. On Analogue products I’m still a sucker for 4.5X though thanks to the excellent interpolation built in. No tearing, no shimmer, no info lost. You can crop borders on the fly in any resolution too.
How does it look with scanlines?
@@emiliofahr504 Lemme jump in here. Not good. Analogue consoles just don't have good scanlines. The OSSC on the other hand has the best scanlines I've seen. Had the OSSC next to my CRT and looked back and forth and I gotta say... the OSSC looked pretty, pretty, prettay good.
@@cybernitemusic analogue consoles look best with super sharp pixels without scanlines imo. It’s not meant to imitate a crt.
Great video Bro.
This is exactly why I buy "PDP" panels ( Public display panels)
They are mainly used in commercial premises like theatres, Cinemas, Fast food stores etc.
They give the opportunity to scale the image in much finer increments than the standard consumer variants found on the market.
It really aggravates Me that modern consumer flat panels sold in most stores never have the opportunity to do this.
The pre fixed aspect ratio zooms on them suck
PDP panels are awesome as you can tailor the height and width to your exact requirements.
Great video! Been using 5x mode at 1200p ivia OSSC on my 4k TCL set for a while, and use the TV's built in zoom to fill the screen a bit more. Looks fantastic!
5x mode is great for NTSC games and resolutions, however for PAL games that take full advantage of 576i then you may get heavy cut off for the top and bottom of the screen. Often there won't be a happy median as a result. As RetroRGB is NTSC focus we wouldn't expect them to cover it, but it does need a mention. It really depends on the game and if it was optimised for PAL or not, as to if you should use 5x mode.
Coming in a little late on this comment, but 5x actually cuts off fewer lines than my consumer CRT does. Neat!
Everytime Bob said something about the new scalers releasing this year I can only thing in the RetroTink5x, Im really waiting for this
PixelFX is working on their scaler as well.
There is a retrotink 5x in the works? Awesome
Confirmed now!
Yeah pre orders coming up soon shocked how quickly this is rolling out.
Pre-orders just got announced!
Great video! Using 5x scale on MiSTer is awesome!
While this information may not be useful to me because I don’t play retro games anymore, the information is very clearly explained, and even someone with a simple brain like mine could understand it. Good video.
Just got a Tink 5x and it is incredible!
I just want you to know you're doing the Lord's work.
Hahaha, thank you :)
Thank you. I've been advocating this for some time. (also added it to bsnes-hd, just with really bad naming)
I think the most confusing thing about scalers is removing the link in my brain that says 5x240=1200 therefore the scaler will output 1200p. Obviously this is not true, yes for a 240p signal the scaler is going to 1200p in 5x mode, but it's only sending 1080 of the horizontal lines to the display and not a 1200p signal.
Yeah, I tried to demonstrate that with my MSPaint colored pictures. Hopefully it was a good visual queue.
@@RetroRGB Oh yes, that certainly helped. Not enough love going around for the old MS paint these days. Thanks Bob
Wait.. doesn't it still output 1600x1200 in a 1920x1080 window? (Leaving like 10%.. or 5% up top 5% down below cut off?)
Which is typically fine regardless... But in my 5X I still slightly decrease the V scaling the ensure I'm retaining any necessary visual data at the expense of some minor aspect ratio adjustment.)
Thanks for all of your hard work Bob!
Thanks for watching!
@@RetroRGB thanks to your advice, my I ordered my first RetroTink 5x Pro yesterday! Looking forward to checking it out. Keep it up!
I have a CRT which means I have no reason to watch this but I like the videos anyway. Good content.
Pure quality on this channel! Another banger video!
Thank you!
Once again, top notch video Bob👍🏻 a great help to everyone in the community.
Great explanation! The only thing that stood out as missing to me was no mention of scanlines. The main reason I've stuck with a 3x (720p) scale is because scanlines looked pretty bad at 5x on both the Framemeister and the OSSC (though interestingly, 5x scanlines don't actually look too bad on the MiSTer).
I just got a SuperNt the other day and have been wondering… everyone seems to suggest the 720p setting for use with scan-lines, and it does look better, but are you losing anything by going with 720p vs. 1080p? Or is it all basically a wash?
@@kdkseven Scanlines don't look bad at 1080p if you use an integer scale. They only look bad if you try doing non-integer scaling.
If you can find a way to mess with the 5x mode's resolution output signal and switch between avi/hdmi/hdmi(yuv) and set with your tv's normal/pc modes while changing aspect ratio, you may find a setting that will 5x scale without the need for cutoff and have scanlines on screen evenly. It's something to do with the tv's scaler that can be fooled, but it takes a lot of fiddling around just to find where it will work.
@@kdkseven You do lose some sharpness by having your TV upscale from 720p rather than 1080p, though both scale evenly to 4K, so it's not a massive difference on my 4K TV. But yeah, I would rather lose a little bit of sharpness over having funky-looking scanlines. (Some people might even prefer that touch of extra softness, though I'm not really that person.)
Never understood this. Scanlines in 1080p 5x look fine to me. They can indeed be uneven if you're not using 5x, or if your TV does not perfectly match the aspect ratio, but otherwise I see no advantages for the 720p mode.
Nice. Some related notes:
1. Nearest Neighbour and integer scaling are not synonyms, integer scaling is a special case of Nearest Neighbour. Moreover, using Nearest Neighbour is not the only way to do integer scaling, it’s just a widely available hardware-accelerated way.
2. 4K is much better than FHD in terms of screen-space usage when integer-scaling 224p: with 4K displays, height loss is 2.5 times lower than with FHD displays: 6.7% instead of 17%. On 8K displays, height loss is just 1.5%. In this regard, computers combined with emulators are beyond competition because retro consoles, HDMI game-console mods, and scalers are typically limited to FHD or, rarely (e.g. MiSTer with overclocking), QHD.
I've been using 5x scaling on my MiSTer for some time now. It looks amazing on my LG OLED.
OMG RETRO RGB ROBERT! Look man I don't watch your in depth pixel scale technical analysis for technical analysis; I watch it for explosions, loud sounds, and shiny colors!
Awesome video Bob.
Great video as always RGBob 🙂
@@MichaelM28 They have if they pay him on Floatplane.
@@MichaelM28 All my videos are released early to subscribers before going public. This is both as a courtesy and because I'm lucky enough to have some amazing supporters that sometimes catch mistakes before they go public.
@@MichaelM28Patreon, Floatplane, or people who "Join" through TH-cam, via the button on the video.
@@MarcusTheDorkus Floatplane sounds made up.
5x mode is perfect for me. I don't mind if some stuff is cropped off.
Nice new titles. Glad you kept the awesome 8bot version of your guitar piece 👍
One thing to note with the ossc's 5x is that changing the res outputs from avi/hdmi/hdmi(yuv) and between your panel's normal and pc modes will get the up to 1200 lines to even out for scanline use, but it takes a great deal of fiddling till you find it and you may have to jump around on the tv's aspect ratio as well.
Thanks so much for all the info you provide. Love it!
The only resolution I use for the RetroTINK 5X bcuz Over and Under makes the 5X/4X scale more uniform than Fill... then other resolutions above or beyond 4K or 720p didn't convinced me enough, so 1080p for me is the standard for my 5X PRO
Another great educational clip. Thank you.
Just got my SuperNt the other day, so this video was really helpful.
4.5x scale with interpolation is the move with the Super Nt.
Akchually **insert here example so specific about a single game with a single type of tv in a single country** 🤓
lol
As usual super educative! Keep it coming man!
Killer video bob! Thanks for the great breakdown
Appreciate the overview on 5x. I still prefer 4x for 1080p monitors though. I'd rather not be messing with settings between different games and I've never minded black borders. And since my only TV is 4k I'll be using 3x on that or 9x if something gets released.
Can I ask why you’d stick to 3X? I know that’s a perfect integer of 4K in theory but almost no Tv’s do integer (nearest neighbour) scaling so in my experience the higher the resolution you can feed a 4K tv the sharper the result.
@@jameslarham5936 If I did 4x it would still be upscaling 1080p up to 4k, only give me 8x total, and the image quality isn't any better. 3x 720p upscaled to 4k doesn't look any worse and gives full screen height, at least with the TV I have both have decently crisp pixels.
@@WilhelmDriscoll if it gives the result you want then go for it! Are you using an OSSC? Have you tried 5x with the 1200p setting? Works great on my 4K OLED, fills the screen vertically and is super sharp.
I have been experimenting with 1200p on my PS1Digital, and so far I found that it works best for sprite based games. 3D polygonal games still work better on 960p
I love my Hi-Def NES-modded Famicom AV. But the lack of 5x vertical scaling is a bummer. This is why I mostly use it on a PC CRT, with unbelievably good results.
Vertical back porch and sync length work fine for position on the OSSC.
Great video Bob. So if I'm getting this right, 5x makes a standard 240p image, 5 times bigger. Adjusting it to almost fit on a 1080p display. It doesn't stretch or smooth out the original output image. Taking advantage of a large flat panel with higher pixel rate. Utilising the otherwise black boarders, unused pixels.
Yup, you nailed it!
If you're someone that links to tinker with settings, a high end 1080p/1440p scaler is a must. I have both the Retrotink 2x Pro and 5x Pro, and the 5x Pro is so so much better in every way. Well worth the money. Plus the 5x recently got some new FW which allows a 4k mode, albeit stuck at either 24/25hz, but that will still work very well on quite a few N64 games. Think Zelda, that game can sometimes dip into the teens for FPS. Outside of that, the 1440p mode on my G1 OLED looks amazing. I've tested it with my Famicom and NES, SNES and super famicom, and all of them look great in the 1440p mode with Gen Frame Lock and VRR.
There should be a 4k scaler sometime in the next 1-2 years as well, based on some of the comments I've been reading by some of the developers of various scalers. Although that may depend on how easy it is to get PCBs/FPGA boards.
Great video explaining the 5x modes, especially with how re-centering via vertical tinkering can fix most of the screen issues.
I tried 5x on MiSTer and didn't like the cut-off. Playing on a flat panel is different enough for me to not stress over replicating the experience of a CRT on one. It's great to have the option though!
Thanks Bob!
Thanks Bob, great video!
Put my mega drive and my SNES into the 5x mode and Its awesome 🤩🤩 thank you for your advise 😜😎
With the announcement of the RetroTINK 5X-Pro, I think I know why Bob decided to make a 5X video. :P
I wish 2048x1152 monitors were more common, they'd be great for 5x! A few exist, from Dell, Samsung and Acer ~2009 And 1152 being double 576 makes it even more interesting for me as a PAL gamer who plays mostly ps2 and gamecube- motion adaptive deinterlacing + 2x nearest neighbour might look awesome at 1152p
I have no idea why, but my screen just will not keep sync at 1080p. (and MiSTer recently started detecting it through EDID) That was annoying. both that I had to swap back to 720p, and I guess I don't get to play at my monitor's native 1080p :(
Great video and for the most part I agree with you Bob. Most of the 8bit and 16bit games do look better in 5x mode without cutting of important information during gameplay. With PS1 and Saturn games (NTSC) its a mixed bag. My main problem with 5x is the TV compability especially when you are using specific resolution settings for optimal timings (OSSC). For example 320x240p 5x Line does not work for N64 games with my OLED C9 TV which is known for his high compability with different resolutions.
7:55 Cutting the coin counter? What do you mean?
I thought Sonic only had rings...
Nice intro Bob.
The reason why I typically use 3x instead of 5x is because scanline effects seem to look better on 3x. I’m wondering if this is unique to the Framemeister though as that is what I’m using.
Correct, how scanlines look is the result of the scaler, not the resolution. I didn't mention that, cause the new scalers being released this year should all have much better scanline support.
Awesome, thank you Bob!
Hey Bob, do you remember when we were in the digital transition and didn't have any reliable scalers around at the time? Trying to convert anything to vga was a nightmare and it seems nobody has ever done a proper overview on that yet.
Foduh was just about one of the only few people we had to rely on at the time too, buying and testing all the scalers he somehow managed to get his hands on.
When I spotted that Retrotink 5x in the background... 👀👀
I use the 1200p 5x mode myself since my TV completely supports it. It drops the signal only in some fringe cases.
With my tv it is hit or miss depending on the device. LG Oled from a few years ago I think 2017 model.
Recorded this the same day as your part on the MLiG? Anyways, just bought the component adapter you recommended on your website, ordered OEM component cables for the OG Xbox (just the cable form) so I can drop the Pound adapter. It works well for me but I want the best visual I can get without the HDMI mod and assure lag free as well. Can’t wait to test it out! Thanks for what you do!!
My Sony KDL-40w705c (fullhd 2015) works very well with SD (sms and md are really good), long live Scart RGB and Component.
On the other hand x2 only with the OSSC unfortunately. It is only with the EDGE DVDO that the x5 passes but with the problems that go with it (Inputlag for example and the upscaling less good than that of my TV, normal because the Edge is old).
I would love a LG CX so much :p
hi
your Sony is good too with 480p game ?
( sorry for my bad english)
@@ismiismael no problem, me too for english xd
240/480p nice, just a ps2 (with or not ossc) is medium. My dreamcast with cheap vgabox (retrobit) is good (i dream for a kuro plus).
This video explained so much to me. Thank you so much!
Thank you very much for your video!!
Very cool and informative. Thanks for creating this man! Just subbed, and keep up the great content.
Thanks for watching!
@@RetroRGB Anytime, have a great day!
I was wondering about lag. Suppose I have a scaler that can output 480p, 720p, 1080p, 1200p, and 1440p, all with zero lag. If I'm using a 4k TV, would this TV introduce different levels of lag, depending on what resolution it is getting from the scaler? Thank you for another very informative video!
In all my testing, there's only been a few milliseconds of difference between resolutions. Never enough to actually affect gameplay. Excellent question though and I should have mentioned it in the video!
Always love ya vids mate!
Great new intro Bob😊😎 Question.... What is that red scaler?
Thanks! That's the OSSC with Greg's new case: laserbear.net/shop/ols/products/ossc-case
It's f-ing nice! Thanks for the reply brother... I'm on it!😎
Pretty much all the CPS2 games on PS1 and Saturn cut off text at the top or meters at the bottom, but it's not too horrible.
I’m now currently impatiently waiting for the retrotink5x.
Pre-orders start 1st of May!
@@jengelenm I saw roxoilds video last night, I already have the cash ear marked!
Well explained. Nice video... Keep it up... 👍👍👍
I started playing with line5x a few months ago. My 1080p Vizio TV doesn't agree with the 5x signal from my N64 via the OSSC, no matter how hard I tweak the timings, but SNES looks freakin amazing.
FINALLY! Thank you!
Scan lines are essentially broken on 5x with PS1Digital, Analogue Super Nt, and Analogue Mega Sg. The dark simulated scan lines will bisect scaled raster lines no matter what settings you choose, even 1200p. Obviously, that’s not even possible on a CRT.
Some good ideas here for using 5x, like for Sonic... but I mainly prefer 4x. My TV is big enough that the 4x scales to approx the same as a 32 inch CRT would display, so I'm happy enough with that. I mean, 5x simply makes it a bit too big for my liking. I guess it all depends how far you sit from your TV etc. But for Sonic, I'll do 5x.
It would be nice if they came out with more upscalers that gave the option for composite dithering. I was into those perfect pixels at first, but some games that use composite dithering effects look like crap when you do that.
That OSSC case at the beginning is sexyyyyy.
Thanks! Greg sells them here: laserbear.net/shop/ols/products/ossc-case
Fair enough, you lose some picture but such a tiny amount. Nice highlight on the "less than 240p" era of graphics. ;)
Bob essential retro viewing.
This is a really good video
I use 3x scaling, but that's because I really like how scanlines look at 720p. How do they look in 5x mode?
Totally depends on the scaler, which is why I didn't cover them in this video. That would deserve a totally separate video on it's own and I'd want to wait for the new stuff that's coming out this year.
@@RetroRGB Thanks for that! Sounds interesting!
I have a Samsung 1080 HD TV. Everything fits perfectly on my TV. The sides are black. Well I see improvement in the quality of the picture somehow with these devices?
I wouldn’t be surprised if by the time there’s a readily available scaler with 4K support, 8K TVs are common place or nearly common place
I struggle getting my Pal Saturn to look good on my OSSC. 720x288 resolution just doesnt scale right on any setting.
You just saved me a ton of money. No way am I cutting off any parts of the image! I just bought a Rad2x and thought I might be missing out, but I’m OK with it now.
It’s too bad there’s no solution like on PC emulation: nearest neighbor scaling but full screen, with slightly non-square pixels or whatnot. Yeah you might get some pixel crawl with movement or other artifacts, but you’re not missing part of the game and it stays razor sharp for the most part.
Thats cool the retro tink allows you to ajust the image.
Maybe add that feature for the MiSTer. maybe put profiles for that feature. Most people use same packs so in most cases it should be ok.
The MiSTer already has it: www.retrorgb.com/mister-1080p-5x-beta-testing.html
twitter.com/RetroRGB/status/1359542030804914179
@@RetroRGB ohh ok. i knew of the 5x mode. the shifting of image is what i was talking about. Ill check it later tonight.
Great video, but can I ask which capture card you are using to grab this footage? I cannot get any of capture cards (all Elgato) to play nice with my OSSC running at 5X, whereas 3X works without any problems. I tried looking at your RetroRGB Amazon page but didn't see any capture cards listed there. Thanks!
I use a used Datapath, but this video should help: th-cam.com/video/VIg7kNUaOuU/w-d-xo.html
me: oh man I'm really glad bob is making this video because I haven't really understood the hype about 5x
Bob: now 5x scaling may cut into the coin counter in Sonic
me: excuse me the *what* counter
LOL, yeah, I forgot to edit that audio...but I felt that was a great visual example of what I meant.
@@RetroRGBtoo late, the damage is done
Hi RGB. I recently acquired an OSSC and haven’t a clue what I’m doing with it lol. Been playing mainly Saturn and Dreamcast. When I select, say, x5 on the OSSC the image doesn’t shift like you have shown. Is that normal, am I doing something wrong? I’m using a 4K LG TV. Thanks
Have you done a comparison or can you do one between MiSTer and original hardware in terms of picture quality? I've noticed that MiSTer oftentimes looks better, but have not seen a real comparison.
For SNES, 4.5x (with 4:3 AR)with interpolation is the sweet spot imo. 4.5x fills the image to almost all the way to top and bottom of screen(More that 4x but also not cutting off bits like 5x), and interpolation fixes shimmering caused by non-integer scaling. Im using Analogue Super Nt fwiw.
Have you watched the FirebrandX settings videos for the SuperNT? I just got my SuperNt the other day and they've been helpful.
@@kdkseven Yep! Thats where I got my settings from actually. Scaler in the SuperNt is amazing
@@MrAdam802 Yeah, i'm having fun with it.
If you aren’t using an integer scale why stop at 4.5 and nearly fill the screen? Just use the Super NT’s ability to freely adjust and fill it top to bottom. And obviously widen it slightly to maintain the correct AR.
@@jameslarham5936 I guess I could, but 4.5 is close enough and I followed the FirebrandX video settings
in some tvs, like Sony Trinitron, you can adjust the geometry from the menu service to fix the overscan...
Haven't watched the video, but HDMI by spec (albeit optionally) supports pixel repetition modes that have a horizontal resolution of 240p/288p or 480i/576i (Video ID codes 10 - 13 and and 25-28, NTSC and PAL respectively), with a a very high horizontal (2880) resolution where the pixel can be repeated 1 - 10 times by the display itself. In case it's unsupported, there's no law that says you can't repeat pixels on the encoder side - the 1440 pixel wide 240/288p modes with fixed 2 pixel repetition should be standard.
I don't understand why those modes aren't used by any of the encoders...
Yeah I mostly use 1080p 5x myself, but with some of the FirebrandX profiles I found that the 1080p 5x is straight up not recognized by my TV, although 1200p mode works perfect.. it’s strange, can’t think off the top of my head which ones, I’d have to double check but it’s only 1 or 2
Is that on the OSSC?
@@bojangles6444 yeah what else
@@mindscan420 for some reason the 1200p modes don’t seem to run in 1200p on my tv still says 1080. Might be too old of a 4K model.
One wonders, the soft scalers on TV's are, soft, not very nice. But, are there any TV brands, which are less bad?
some panasonic tvs can do integer scaling of 1080p to 4k
Cut off the coin counter of Sonic?!! :D
Yeah, I forgot to edit that audio...but I felt that was a great visual example of what I meant.
@@RetroRGB I kid, I kid. My wife and I did a let's play with Sonic where we made fun of our selves on the subject: th-cam.com/video/IjiEwiClKec/w-d-xo.html
Hi Bob, sorry to ask you another question
I just bought a native 1440p monitor
Do you still recommend 5x mode? Or would it be better to use native 1440p?
Great question! Without seeing it in person, my guess is running in native 1440p would be best. But definitely try both and see, as stuff like this is very dependent on the display itself.
They both look great and I love them both
The 5x mode still takes advantage of the larger screen size, but at 1440p the CRT filters look better and that's why I haven't been able to decide
Hello Bob
Do you also recommend 5x mode for PS2 gamecube and Wii?
on the Retrotink 5X?
Totally depends on the game. Some PS2-era games have black bars on the top and bottom anyway, so "1080p (Over)" mode would be the best choice. Other games are still designed for a lot of overscan, so you won't cut off the hud on the top or bottom, but you *would* loose some of the top and bottom of the screen. So, it's really what looks best for that game on your TV: Gaining more width, while retaining proper aspect ratio at the cost of top & bottom info...
...or just using 1080p Fill and getting the full graphics top to bottom.
I'd try it on a per-game basis and see what looks best to your eyes. There's no wrong answer for this one :)
Thanks for your response Bob.
But then there wouldn't be problems with scaling from 480i and 480p to 1080 over? For example, pixels not aligned correctly?
Nope. Give it a try and see...I think you'll sometimes be pleasantly surprised with how good it looks. And other times you'll switch back to 1080p (Fill) :)
Thanks Bob
Excuse me one last question
Do you know why the scanlines look strange when you use 1080 over with 480p and 480i signals? in 1440p they look incredible
It's due to integer scaling and how the scalines line up. They should still look great with 240p in 1080p over though.
What scaler is that at 0:32? And what other scalers are coming out this year that Bob mentioned?
Still don't have a ossc or something similar but wouldn't this be pretty different for pal video? Seems a lot of discussion are happening exclusively around ntsc resolutions (not surprised of course).
I've found the 5x scaling on my OSSC stretched the image to fill the 16:9 screen so I've often stuck to 3x scaling instead, which maintains the correct aspect ratio (without having to adjust the TV). If anyone knows how to correct this for 5x on an OSSC, please let me know 👍
You should try using FBX's profiles to fix that: www.retrorgb.com/ossc.html
@@RetroRGB Awesome, I'll try them out! Cheers.
Hi, what are the few best Retrotink or Retro Gaming Cables devices to use with the old original Nintendo NES? I am having hard time to find a clear answer. Thank you