Like I mentioned in the other video, the manual of the Zaku Mariner model kit seems to strongly imply that it was based on the M-1 version of the Zaku Marine Type, which preceded the M-2 version, which is the MS-06M/MSM-01 we are familiar with. The MS-06M-1 had better cruising speed, but lower pressure resistance. This feedback resulted in the MS-06M-2 adding waterproof seals on the joints and a large monitor shield over its mono eye. The later is most evident when you put images of the original MS-06F, MSM-01 and RMS-192M side by side and compare their heads. The former is easier to notice, specially in the limbs where the MS-06M-1/RMS-192M seems to borrow parts that seem almost straight taken from a MS-06F. The only other relevant info is that unlike the Marine Hizack, the Zaku Mariner upgraded its contruction with Gundarium Gamma, which in theory would have been how the EF finally solved the underwater pressure problems of the MS-06M-1, and provides a reason on why it was deployed after the Marine Hizack. We can also speculate that even if the M-1 was as heavily armed as the Zaku Mariner, with its fixed subroc launchers, when they realized the pressure problems, these were removed in favor of prioritizing increasing the pressure resistance, later replacing them with the optional chest launchers. As for the model numbers, one theory I have heard is that the EF/Titans used the original Zeon model number for machines that Zeon actually fielded during the war, while machines that were never deployed in combat, like the MS-06M-1 & MS-17B Galbaldy Beta, were given brand new EF model numbers. For context, it’s widely believed that the MS-17B was near identical to the RMS-117, just with minor upgrades like the linear seat, and served as the base for the AMX-117L Gaz-L & AMX-117R Gaz-R, which lore-wise were supposedly commonly fielded as bodyguards for Haman’s Qubeley, pointing towards an early deployment date compared to the rest of Axis/1st Neo Zeon machines.
Great comment reading the minor changes between models is nice and wished they were more open about every upgrade that a MS had. As for the EF like i said at the end its very funny how much effort they put into making the zaku work and instead of just working on there own AM instead, I think the outcome would be much better but gundairm being the fixing issue sounds bout right with how good that it at everything (strength, heat, weight) its a fix all solution when somthing is not working. Also with model number every group EF, Zeon, neo zeon, the other neo zeon the other other neo zeon love being complicated and having odd shit i do like the theory tho. IMO i think this video was reaching a point of being too long and while i could i dont want to get too off topic and start analyzing somthing that could be helpful but would lead down a very long path of being sidestracked once again thank you for the comment
@@slothcakes On a different note, I have been digging up some more info on the MSM-02 Hydro, namely from the site and some board posts from Mark Simmons, whom Sunrise hired to keep things more consistent in more recent UC Gundam shows (in which you can find his name in the credits): At the mecha talk forums he sued to post under the name "toysdream" and the site owner even gave him a custom title "master of mecha", though the later you can only find now with the wayback machine since the site was upgraded a few years after he stopped posting there. Anyway, a very interesting post on the MSM-02 Hydro Test Type, from the 1983 MSV Handbook published in Japan: "We're told that the rival machines MSM-02 and MSM-03 both received a small initial production run; two months later, the decision was made to cancel the MSM-02 and mass produce the MSM-03 Gogg. By this account, both models had built-in mega particle cannons - identified here as the Kia M-23 model, an earlier version of the M-33 used in the Zeong - which weighed a total of 38.7 tons. The MSM-02 also had rocket launchers in its shoulders and back, and it's said to have a stronger resemblance to the Zaku." www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=14121 For context, the discussion was about the deployment date of the Gogg, for which there were contradictory accounts, which this almost forgotten quote resolved: The MSM-03-1 was produced in small quantities in May, alongside the MSM-02 Hydro, as stopgap before full the proper MSM-03 began deployment in July. Also, it mentions that the MSM-02 also had beam weapons, even specifying the type. As a side note, the were a couple more interesting tidbits in the same spot: "It's also mentioned that the Acguy had especially good land warfare performance, and that this is why it was used as a base for most of those specialized Jaburo-invading mobile suits. We're told that the Zock had already been approved for mass production as a "small type mobile armor", but only three prototypes had been completed by the time the war ended." Moving on to Mark's own site, ultimatemark.com/gundam/, there's some old info on the Gogg that may shed some light on why the MSM-02 was cancelled even if it had beams weapons and even after being produced in limited quantities: "While operating on land, it used more than 100 tons of internally stored water as coolant, enabling it to operate at full throttle for about an hour and a half." www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamcentury.html Now, many of these figures have been adjusted overtime, best observed in another entry of this site comparing those very changes (more in a moment), but the point is, apparently the Gogg used a large part of its full weight to simply store water to be used as coolant and yet this gave it rather brief operational time on land, which in turn suggests that the smaller MSM-02 Hydro would be even more restricted, having less room to store water and in turn likely having and even shorter operational time on land. So, which is the mega particle cannon of the Hydro? My bet is that the shoulder mounted weapons are these, since it needs to have access to the stored water for cooling purposes. In such case I would assume that the 70mm refers to the arm mounted weapon pods, which sounds about right if we consider that the Gouf's 5 finger machine gun uses 75mm caliber. Back to the specs comparison page, the entry on the Gogg has some interesting info on its armaments, specially the two oldest sources: Gundam Century: armament: deflection type mega particle cannon (internal) x 2, laser cannon (internal) x 2 Kodansha Pocket Card 8: armament: head phonon maser cannon x 2, abdominal focused beam cannon x 2, underwater missile x 2, freeziard defensive weapon www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/specscomparison.html There you go: the Gogg do has beam weapons on its head, originally simply referred as laser cannons, but later identified as phonon masers, though later publications stopped mentioning them altogether. There's TONS of interesting info on amphibious MS from obscure japanese publications on Mark's site, so if you have the time or are looking for some info on a particular MS, that may be a good place to look for it. If I find anything else interesting, I will let you know. I'll finish by saying that I really enjoy your videos and hope you keep them coming, since I have also learned things I didn't know, for instance, I failed to realize that the Azock was inspired by the Zock or that it was also supposed to by symmetrical.
@@ZeonicFenrir WOW this is all very helpful I didnt know bout these sources nor about that history so thank you will def be using this to help gather info for future videos. these small minor details is actually exactly what i have been looking for so thank you on that
But since hizaks, even though limited, were able use some beam weapons, why couldn't the marine type as well? Just a single beam saber would probably have made him like a solid 40% more effective especially in combination with the heat rod.
Odd since fed had the aqua gm with a beam saber but they didn't try for him. I assume it's to cut cost and put as little strain on the gen as possible and since it's amphibious it would need a custom beam gun to use under water, I just think they kinda half assed him and called it a day.
I’m fully willing to believe that Zeon’s amphibious tech was so much better than the federation’s that they would drop their own work and just pick up Zeon’s after the war. But why on earth would they go with a mobile suit that did almost nothing in the war, could have iterated on the z’gok, the hygogg, even the acguy, all would have led to better results
There probably were plans to do so, but after the operation stardust occurred and all of the destroyed things taking most of the money they could use on research. So they had to do this in order to handle their decreasing spending. Doesnt help that with the hizack being such an icon of the titans that they had to stick with the agua gm up to both the events of unicorn and even up to the mars/re zeon incident around u.c. 120. To say they were being cheap is an understatement, if it wasnt for the fact that a: zeon having very few people to do such a thing and b: the f90 having a marine pack they wouldve probably gained control of the sea. But as it said for the summary of the rf zgok, one type of control doesn't win a war.
Like I mentioned in the other video, the manual of the Zaku Mariner model kit seems to strongly imply that it was based on the M-1 version of the Zaku Marine Type, which preceded the M-2 version, which is the MS-06M/MSM-01 we are familiar with.
The MS-06M-1 had better cruising speed, but lower pressure resistance. This feedback resulted in the MS-06M-2 adding waterproof seals on the joints and a large monitor shield over its mono eye.
The later is most evident when you put images of the original MS-06F, MSM-01 and RMS-192M side by side and compare their heads. The former is easier to notice, specially in the limbs where the MS-06M-1/RMS-192M seems to borrow parts that seem almost straight taken from a MS-06F.
The only other relevant info is that unlike the Marine Hizack, the Zaku Mariner upgraded its contruction with Gundarium Gamma, which in theory would have been how the EF finally solved the underwater pressure problems of the MS-06M-1, and provides a reason on why it was deployed after the Marine Hizack.
We can also speculate that even if the M-1 was as heavily armed as the Zaku Mariner, with its fixed subroc launchers, when they realized the pressure problems, these were removed in favor of prioritizing increasing the pressure resistance, later replacing them with the optional chest launchers.
As for the model numbers, one theory I have heard is that the EF/Titans used the original Zeon model number for machines that Zeon actually fielded during the war, while machines that were never deployed in combat, like the MS-06M-1 & MS-17B Galbaldy Beta, were given brand new EF model numbers.
For context, it’s widely believed that the MS-17B was near identical to the RMS-117, just with minor upgrades like the linear seat, and served as the base for the AMX-117L Gaz-L & AMX-117R Gaz-R, which lore-wise were supposedly commonly fielded as bodyguards for Haman’s Qubeley, pointing towards an early deployment date compared to the rest of Axis/1st Neo Zeon machines.
Great comment reading the minor changes between models is nice and wished they were more open about every upgrade that a MS had.
As for the EF like i said at the end its very funny how much effort they put into making the zaku work and instead of just working on there own AM instead, I think the outcome would be much better but gundairm being the fixing issue sounds bout right with how good that it at everything (strength, heat, weight) its a fix all solution when somthing is not working. Also with model number every group EF, Zeon, neo zeon, the other neo zeon the other other neo zeon love being complicated and having odd shit i do like the theory tho.
IMO i think this video was reaching a point of being too long and while i could i dont want to get too off topic and start analyzing somthing that could be helpful but would lead down a very long path of being sidestracked
once again thank you for the comment
@@slothcakes On a different note, I have been digging up some more info on the MSM-02 Hydro, namely from the site and some board posts from Mark Simmons, whom Sunrise hired to keep things more consistent in more recent UC Gundam shows (in which you can find his name in the credits):
At the mecha talk forums he sued to post under the name "toysdream" and the site owner even gave him a custom title "master of mecha", though the later you can only find now with the wayback machine since the site was upgraded a few years after he stopped posting there.
Anyway, a very interesting post on the MSM-02 Hydro Test Type, from the 1983 MSV Handbook published in Japan:
"We're told that the rival machines MSM-02 and MSM-03 both received a small initial production run; two months later, the decision was made to cancel the MSM-02 and mass produce the MSM-03 Gogg. By this account, both models had built-in mega particle cannons - identified here as the Kia M-23 model, an earlier version of the M-33 used in the Zeong - which weighed a total of 38.7 tons. The MSM-02 also had rocket launchers in its shoulders and back, and it's said to have a stronger resemblance to the Zaku."
www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=14121
For context, the discussion was about the deployment date of the Gogg, for which there were contradictory accounts, which this almost forgotten quote resolved: The MSM-03-1 was produced in small quantities in May, alongside the MSM-02 Hydro, as stopgap before full the proper MSM-03 began deployment in July. Also, it mentions that the MSM-02 also had beam weapons, even specifying the type.
As a side note, the were a couple more interesting tidbits in the same spot:
"It's also mentioned that the Acguy had especially good land warfare performance, and that this is why it was used as a base for most of those specialized Jaburo-invading mobile suits.
We're told that the Zock had already been approved for mass production as a "small type mobile armor", but only three prototypes had been completed by the time the war ended."
Moving on to Mark's own site, ultimatemark.com/gundam/, there's some old info on the Gogg that may shed some light on why the MSM-02 was cancelled even if it had beams weapons and even after being produced in limited quantities:
"While operating on land, it used more than 100 tons of internally stored water as coolant, enabling it to operate at full throttle for about an hour and a half."
www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamcentury.html
Now, many of these figures have been adjusted overtime, best observed in another entry of this site comparing those very changes (more in a moment), but the point is, apparently the Gogg used a large part of its full weight to simply store water to be used as coolant and yet this gave it rather brief operational time on land, which in turn suggests that the smaller MSM-02 Hydro would be even more restricted, having less room to store water and in turn likely having and even shorter operational time on land.
So, which is the mega particle cannon of the Hydro? My bet is that the shoulder mounted weapons are these, since it needs to have access to the stored water for cooling purposes. In such case I would assume that the 70mm refers to the arm mounted weapon pods, which sounds about right if we consider that the Gouf's 5 finger machine gun uses 75mm caliber.
Back to the specs comparison page, the entry on the Gogg has some interesting info on its armaments, specially the two oldest sources:
Gundam Century:
armament: deflection type mega particle cannon (internal) x 2,
laser cannon (internal) x 2
Kodansha Pocket Card 8:
armament: head phonon maser cannon x 2,
abdominal focused beam cannon x 2,
underwater missile x 2,
freeziard defensive weapon
www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/specscomparison.html
There you go: the Gogg do has beam weapons on its head, originally simply referred as laser cannons, but later identified as phonon masers, though later publications stopped mentioning them altogether.
There's TONS of interesting info on amphibious MS from obscure japanese publications on Mark's site, so if you have the time or are looking for some info on a particular MS, that may be a good place to look for it.
If I find anything else interesting, I will let you know.
I'll finish by saying that I really enjoy your videos and hope you keep them coming, since I have also learned things I didn't know, for instance, I failed to realize that the Azock was inspired by the Zock or that it was also supposed to by symmetrical.
@@ZeonicFenrir WOW this is all very helpful I didnt know bout these sources nor about that history so thank you will def be using this to help gather info for future videos.
these small minor details is actually exactly what i have been looking for so thank you on that
love this series
this series is such a good time. keep it up bro!
But since hizaks, even though limited, were able use some beam weapons, why couldn't the marine type as well? Just a single beam saber would probably have made him like a solid 40% more effective especially in combination with the heat rod.
Odd since fed had the aqua gm with a beam saber but they didn't try for him. I assume it's to cut cost and put as little strain on the gen as possible and since it's amphibious it would need a custom beam gun to use under water, I just think they kinda half assed him and called it a day.
I’m fully willing to believe that Zeon’s amphibious tech was so much better than the federation’s that they would drop their own work and just pick up Zeon’s after the war. But why on earth would they go with a mobile suit that did almost nothing in the war, could have iterated on the z’gok, the hygogg, even the acguy, all would have led to better results
There probably were plans to do so, but after the operation stardust occurred and all of the destroyed things taking most of the money they could use on research. So they had to do this in order to handle their decreasing spending.
Doesnt help that with the hizack being such an icon of the titans that they had to stick with the agua gm up to both the events of unicorn and even up to the mars/re zeon incident around u.c. 120.
To say they were being cheap is an understatement, if it wasnt for the fact that a: zeon having very few people to do such a thing and b: the f90 having a marine pack they wouldve probably gained control of the sea. But as it said for the summary of the rf zgok, one type of control doesn't win a war.
We live to dive
woooo!!
So what is going to be episode 8
would it be possible that zaku mariner just rotate it shoulder