This debate/interview was wild. I have no idea how journalists could say they didn't even consider contacting the people involved to corroborate the story and/or get additional facts to get a clearer picture of what went down. Shouldn't this be the very basics of investigative journalism?
I really wouldn't call these people journalist just bc the tried to write a story lmaoo. The fact they didn't do this basic step to begin with Is enough to disqualify them. They're agitative propagandists at best
Look up journalistic integrity. They're *supposed* to have a code of ethics. But that's all they are, they're not reinforced by law or anything like that. They should have done more. A good journalist would have followed up on the information. But many don't do on-the-ground old fashioned journalism anymore. Some outlets do, but most of the time it's a few Google searches, reading articles written by other people who did the same thing, and then posting (obviously not everyone). Even if they did have absolutely the truest rawest data, they still should have done more just in case there was information they weren't given or nuance they missed. First-hand sources can still be skewed depending on who is giving them to you.
@@whasian1487 Which would have been fine if they had taken what was said and reported just on that rather than extended that to an insinuation of collusion between Twitter and the FBI/Democrats that didn't exist. Not only did it not exist Twitter worked extensively to change their policies to allow Conservatives to remain on the platform including Trump himself and everything factual email/message reported in the Twitter Files showed there was no conclusion and if there is a bias it's to defending the right, rather than their own unfounded connections that are little more than Conspiracy Theories.
The reason you don't ask for corroboration of leaked facts is because everyone involved will say it's bullsh*t. The same thing happened when Snowden leaked the NSA files in 2013 too, which is why it is a cringe question to ask by Destiny.
Destiny has a reach that far exceedes any numbers or subscribers you see online. He has talked to so many nieche people and politicians I wouldn't be surprised if he is a household name. Atleast for people under 40
@@kylerBD I doubt these people knew who destiny was before this. You're overestimating that a little bit, but even smaller creators can get journalists and scholars to come on. They're usually excited that anyone would be interested
@@chrisdryer Russian bot farms are real, especially since Ukraine now that Russia has loads of cheap labor, energy, and empty server rooms. A lot of them are hosted in Belarus, Africa and Brazil too. Google "internet research agency" headquartered in St. Petersburg, and they have direct orders from FSB. In 2018 there were 800,000 russian political troll accounts on Twitter ALONE controlled from this single building. Over 100,000 of them were interacting and arguing under Trump tweets. If you know anything avout sicial media, even just a few hundred active accounts can make HUGE waves. You only need 2500 tweets to get on trending, imagine MILLIONS. Today since the war in Ukraine it is millions. On youtube there are even more Russian bot accounts than Twitter, facebook/instagram are 2nd worst with such easy sign-up processes. This is real and proven.
You can see their wheels spinning when he asks that they really never even considered acting like real journalists. The one guy even said he had his conclusions and was working back to justify his case
This is the only good point that Destiny made in the entire thing...and its not even that good of a point. Anyone referenced in these Twitter files 100% has the opportunity to provide their side of the story or correct anything that is incorrect...which nobody has done. Reaching out for a comment would have been nice but at the same time a comment could be made at any time from these people. Asking for a comment from obvious bad actors, manipulators, and politicians is almost pointless. Its like asking the CIA if they killed JFI...regardless of whether or not they did or did not do it their response will always be they did not do it thus asking them for their response is pointless.
I respect David Zweig for how quickly was to admit to what was imo probably a genuine mistake of only questioning one side of the story before coming to the opinions in which he wrote likely seasoned his contributions to the Twitter files with. I wonder if this debate changed any of their overall oppinions are about how comprehensive their research was to disprove their claims before they released them in the Twitter files
They all seem like nice guys and they took in a lot of destiny's points. David was the one who I fealt acknowledged his mistakes more readily though. Its extremely hard to admit your mistakes when your infront of an audience and its very uncommon see within the timespan of a single debate. The majority of the time I've noticed this happen is when they lose confidence and bow down to pressure and I dont believe that was what happened here.
He kept referring to this as investigation reporting but he never felt it was important to answer any questions and simply present these facts to the people and let them decide? No that is so removed from reporting or what they actually did. They were using cherry picked information from the beginning and they knew it and also decided to not ask any questions outside of a singular source. The story was already framed for them and they had limited access and time to see it.
you would be right if Destiny spoke with a 14yo student that wrote an article for his school journal... we are talking about professionals here, checking the other side is literally the basic minimum. there are no excuses
Wow. I'm actually speechless. Destiny is doing the Lord's fucking work that SOMEHOW no one else is doing. Just wow. Props to the David guy though, I can imagine how difficult it must be to admit fault on a massive story you wrote yourself.
no, fuck him. he knew what the fuck they were doing, he admits it at 1:42:11 "I worked backwards" meaning he already had a narrative and was specifically looking for things that would reinforce it
One of my favorite debates on this channel in quite awhile. Much respect to all of the journalists for agreeing to participate - love these opportunities for a 3v1.
My anti-destiny comment: destiny only partially read twitter files thread 7 and it shows. twitter files 8, 9, 11, 12, and 15 (i think) all go into the FBI's dealings with twitter more broadly, and that information is something he clearly didn't know enough about. any conversation about hunter biden was always going to loop around to the more foundational topic of the FBI-twitter connection and destiny was on the back foot. the only reason it wasn't worse for him is because his opponents weren't exactly the best at bringing in the outside information either - it's not like those other twitter files DEFINITIVELY PROVE the fbi was at fault but it was still knowledge destiny lacked and couldn't really reply to as a result. also, going off on the "well we don't know if elon actually gave the journos everything!!!" is possible, but we have no proof of it, and it seemed like grasping at that point. My pro-destiny comment: it's pretty incredible how destiny got these journalists to admit that they didnt even ask any of the other priors. that makes them look like people who got something legitimately juicy and rushed it to print in order to secure their time in the sun, and didnt corroborate it out of laziness, recklessness, or they didn't want their story damaged by possibly proving it false. moreover, even though destiny's tangent of "well we don't know if elon actually gave the journos everything!!!" WAS a grasp, it's STILL possible, and we have evidence of rightoids using exactly this logic when it suits their own political ends. a great example is the hillary clinton email server, where her lawyers claimed they turned over everything for examination and rightoids online said "hah a likely story". in both cases you have a person who is turning over private information for public perusal (hillary/elon) and in both cases they have an incentive to claim they turned over all of it but actually keep some stuff hidden to push a narrative (hillary wants to be president/elon wants to prove twitter was partisan-left). we don't have proof of either, but both are possible, and rightoids accepted this logic when it helped them (hillary) and ignored it when it hurt them (elon). people are very selective about the conspiracy theories they believe nowadays and destiny inadvertently showed that.
In one of the newer Sam Harris episodes he talks about the Twitter Files and one of his guests talks about a specific instance where the info was purely taken out of context. Journalism and standards matter. None of those were met here.
Huge props to these guys for agreeing to the interview! This is probably the best talk on the Twitter files out there, and I wouldn't have been possible the authors agreeing to have confrontational conversations. It's not easy being interviewed critically, and it does seem like they are to some degree, open to criticism. Not everyone can do that! Of course they don't think they are biased, if they did they wouldn't have wrote the Twitter files in the way they did!
@@williamfowl8670 Depends on what their goal is, these guys are pro free speech. Part of that is not being afraid of criticism. If they learned something from this then shouldn't that count as a win? Caring only about "winning" or "loosing" in a conversation doesn't allow for room to change or learn.
@@uku5840 I think that came off as generally bad/gullible journalists, who can't imagine that they were possibly doing partisan pr for Twitter. Obviously, retraction and a redo of their investigations would in effect show that they learned (and I don't necessarily mean that their conclusions should change, perhaps they uncover even worse), but I doubt that they will do as such.
@@williamfowl8670 IDK what to tell you, expecting a retraction is just so out of the scope. Gotta have more reasonable expectations, or you are the one who looks unreasonable.
Are you retarded? He went the super scepticism he himself criticized, poisoning the well and whataboutism. What in gods name did you think destiny accomplished here? Sowing doubt, a more intelligent attempt of framing it like” this is what the story should have been and this is the question you should have asked but didn’t bcs you were not writing the story I wanted”. He sounded like a conspiracy theorist!
@Axileus what's actually smooth brained is you making a criticism of Destiny's understanding of the issue yet literally say nothing to back up your argument.
I appreciate that journalism is a tough tedious job but not interviewing, or at least trying, is the reason journalism is subject to a LOT of mistrust today. Good job Destiny
I agree they should have asked the FBI. But does that negate the emails making the requests? Does that prove those are false. No one from Twitter is claiming those emails or money they received from the FBI were false. And the FBI is openly denying any connection to this... So where do you go from there. They should open up to it, but are they going to?
I believe it's more a case that words matter and how you write matters. Putting an inference on your writing shows bias in the writing method. These people need an editor
@@mikelipinski7615 what these guys did absolutely is grifting. And to state they did it without getting paid by Musk is pretty sad. On your knees that hard without even getting paid oof.
Damn, you can really see around the 1hour 40 mark that these guys actuslly start to realize what a shit job they did with this story. The guy up top just slunk lower and lower into his chair
I was going to say that thinking something can't be dishonest just because everything is factual has to be one of the biggest red flags for journalists. But then they just kept saying more wild shit I never would expect to hear from a journalist
"journalist" shouldn't be held to an authority figure standard. Theres no bar exam or academy for them but any Journalist worth their salt would follow your words.
The main things that blew my mind were that they didn’t consider to vet any of the information that they had directly with the sources. But more importantly they just flat out ignored the possibility that the data source that was being queried could be (most likely was) a subset of the larger data. It’s super easy to just remove everything containing let’s say a few hundred keywords and names. I would have asked them for a list of all the searches that they did. I bet they were definitely slanted against one political party and not the other.
That would have been easy to detect, in two ways in fact. 1) The information would not be there. Hey where is the data where the "xxx" was mentioned? 2) Here is a thread with chunks missing, why?
@@paulmoulton7248 If you're maliciously hiding records you're not going to leave big obvious missing gaps. Maybe a sysadmin could find clues to indicate things were deleted but these journalists clearly did not have that level of access or technical knowhow to whatever system they were given
The conversation about which emails they had access to was annoying. It's so easy to set an SQL query to avoid certain people and keywords and to include others. You might not get rid of all the emails you want to exclude but you'll get rid of many of them. Which is exactly what Destiny was saying but they couldn't get through their thick skulls and got butt hurt about him suggesting.
Fr!! I was watching that segment live. Part of my background is computer engineering. Hearing them trying to downplay the possibility of things being pre filtered made me wanna ram my head through a wall. So stupid.
Because it’s a retarded tangent to bring up, so retarded they hasn’t spent any time thinking of it. ALL reporting that is happening from a company opening themselves up or government opening up is impart faith that the party is truly being open. EVEN when congress tells CIA that they have to disclose such and such, there is literally no option other than to trust the CIA is not erasing info. Jesus y’all are mindfucked on this. Even if the FBI subpoenas files or even surprise warrants, there is no way to guarantee that notes or files weren’t destroyed. you go by what you get. It’s the most basic of basic understandings in investigations.
Did they even say it was an SQL database? They might have just been using the slack/outlook search bar for all we know lol. But yeah if it was SQL that’s hilarious if they thought they were limited there
The lack of computer knowledge from these journalists on top of not following up for comments is mindblowing. Elon literally made them his personal PR team to destroy "old" twitter's reputation, didn't get paid for their journalistic work that they printed on Elon's own site. The lack of real journalism and effort to get the full story is basically the type of attitude you'd expect from someone on their last Friday after they put in their two weeks notice. David Zweig was finally good faith enough to say he agreed with Destiny. I hope he keeps this conversation in his mind moving forward while reporting.
Destiny pointed out that the top-right guy was engaging in Whataboutisms. Then in his next ramble, he proceeds to just do it all over again. Holy yikes.
WORD. I haven't been watching that much lately cause I got so bored of the red pill stuff. Those guys are just so fucking boring. Always the same arguments. This video is such a breath of fresh air.
The ambush was perfect. David started to switch sides and get sense that maybe there is something they missed. Bill seems more ride or die kinda guy, but its nice David got skewed a bit - really surprising, but also I give a lot of credit to David, it is not easy to do so during a course of convo, very special people can ingest and agree so quickly.
And acknowledge their errors on such a massive story. Most people are this point are married to their narrative and/or unconsciously ride the sunk-cost-fallacy till the wheels fall off. Major props. You’d *never* see that from a Glenn Greenwald per se.
I almost wish destiny explained how the hypothetical was to illustrate how they were unwilling to skeptical to the musk side. But seeing them all loose it at being confronted with being unwitting pr was priceless
Some of my previous jobs as an engineer I had access to literally the entire business database of the company and could easily delete or overwrite anything. these guys are complete delusional. one developer with the proper access can wipe out any information that contains certain keywords in mere second, even from thousands of records. it's 100% in the realms of possibility tht the data was tampered with.
I WAS SHOCKED to hear them say it wasnt possible like i can do it within 2 minutes if you give me acces like what do you mean this is a common thing to do like ALLLLL THE TIIIIIME/
Im a dumb ass who can barely run my home network & even I can see the tools at my finger tips to limit what people see in a database lol I was just floored at that moment. These guys believe you need no evidence to assume the FBI or CIA are breaking laws or regulations but Twitter & Elon who had both motive, access, & ability at no cost couldn't possibly be trying to manipulate them.
@@AspiringDevil I am not even a backend developer but If I was given permissions to twitters databases and I knew what I am looking for, I could just query and delete any data I want in mere minutes. Not all data, just the ones that contain some keywords or names, or written by certain people. And Elon had all the power to give any developer the permission (or to make an admin give them permission). These journalists had no idea what they were talking about. If I have more time? I can double, triple check, filter and search in multiple ways. What is possible though that they were shown slack/teams conversations which would be difficult to fake or delete.
They literally admit that they did not contact the relevant parties to confirm/deny the claims they published. Literally basic steps of journalism were skipped to get a narrative out.
I think this is an excellent demonstrator that these Journalists have not been asked to corroborate their stuff for way too long. The news has strayed from journalism hard. Zweig may have started out with integrity and got weaned off by the cycle.
This video black-pilled me on journalists. How can they not see that having only one side of information can’t mislead people? That’s so lazy. What if a company ONLY shared their sales with their shareholders, but not their expenses? It’s not hard at all to think of examples.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je Which they failed to do. They gave us Elon's filtered truth and didn't even question it. Game Journalist actions but where's TwitterFileGate?
Lesson on why it is best to be skeptical especially when evidence confirms your prior assumptions. Honestly engaging with data that challenges your assumption helps build confidence in your hypothesis.
The part about corroboration is really frustrating, honestly. I don't think Destiny actually believes in his hypothetical, but is using it to illustrate that you NEED to corroborate and you NEED to be at least a little distrustful of your sources, regardless of how plainly clear it may be that they are trustful. He should probably have made it super clear here that the corroboration makes you look more credible as a journalist even if in this case it were to effectively do nothing.
It’s crazy to me that this interaction didn’t get mainstream attention. We have individuals who worked on the twitter files, basically copping to the fact that the investigation was highly confined to the parameters established by musk, we have destiny poking holes (effectively) on the official narrative laid down by shellenberger and woodhouse , and destiny also effectively questioning the investigative methods of these journalists. We need another conversation like this on burisma and hunter Biden investigations with those involved to get a clear idea of what’s actually happening here.
The guy on the bottom right by the end i think slowly starts to realize that maybe he was used and manipulated The guy on the top right started his reporting with the end in sight, and found a way there and is sticking to it (everything you are taught not to do in journalism school)
@58:30 the way destiny tries to justify the shadow banning and suppression of right wing social media users is crazy. This guys just a diehard ideologue, there's no point talking to guy like that.
Yeah, that completely makes me not care about what he's saying at all, even if he is right about some of this. I also can't imagine why a STREAMER would find that acceptable.
I took a journalism course in college. I'm not that smart, but I'm pretty sure you're supposed to at least attempt to get responses from the people you're reporting about. These guys ARE smart.
Something foundational that the journos won't accept (or maybe it's me that can't get over it) is that no matter how great their access was, their work is suspect because they published it on the Twitter platform. They're right that most every source has a motive and angle, and they clearly knew Elon wanted to puff himself up and kick the old regime. Despite that it didn't occur to them (or maybe the access was too temtping to resist) that by hosting the work on Twitter itself as a *condition* they sacrificed any appearance of independence.
They keep saying they saw Twitter employees acting in good faith and whatnot but funny how that’s not what they were saying in their “Twitter files”, yet they claim they weren’t writing to push a narrative
politics aside, this kind of conversation is so rare to see yet so entertaining and informative, we really need more content like this in media in general
"yeah bro they made a copy of the database with only the info they want you to see" he was so desperate for a way out of the simple fact that the government controlled a private company for political gains.
David(Covid guy) in so many words stated he started with his conclusion and worked his way backwards. IMO that’s just a terrible way to go about reporting on any story.
Wild part of this is them thinking it would be weird for Elon to have read through or had a legal team read through all past emails to get a strong idea of what is happening in the company then would easily turn over what he deemed good for his image to PR posts.
The idea that elon musk had a team go over tens of thousands of emails with a fine toothed comb to remove hypothetical content that would have somehow exonerated twitter and gone against the thrust of the emails that were actually reported is a literal conspiracy theory.
@@christoffel840 It's not a literal conspiracy theory it's common practice. You would not buy a company and not go through their communications. This is what you hire Lawyers to do it's their job to go through this content to determine what is good and bad for the company.
Jesus, I'm a data analyst for over a decade and these dudes are waaaaayyy to confident about what they got. I've passed audits on the spot by clearing out junk from a search. Like give me the .bak file with every table that doesn't include protected user info which should be separate from what might be interesting....also the fact they didn't get any summary reports is... well... if I wanted to hide something from reporters interested in digging I would just let them pretend to drive a search and waste time looking at 3, 4, 5 induvidual accounts. Bet he gave them "sugguestions" on where and what to look at. Weird Elon never gave access to anyone who would know how to run a simple query.
At first I thought these dudes seemed sort of reasonable but when they saying there is no way Twitter could have manipulated the supplied data I lost it 😂 😂 😂
I love how they act like Elon Musk doesn't have the resources to get a team together to block off damaging communications. Also, the point they make about someone doing searches in front of them, that person could have purposely been access gated from unfavorable data... They are so tech stupid.
I have written for two newspapers and a magazine in the past, and I was a journalism drop out, and these guys seem to be in agreement to do worse than a journalism dropout...I never wrote a story without interviewing multiple sources or at least checking with multiple sources for comment, it was a standard practice, my old editors would not even publish anything that was single sourced from data. Unless I missed something...
In the legal world, when we object to the production of a document (attorney-client privilege, etc.), we are required to produce a "Privilege Log", produce the documents (even if entirely redacted) and describe the date and type of communication, and why it's covered by a given relev privilege. Btw, reporters and journalists absolutely are aware of this. The ExxonMobil example is perfect. They could've also at least asked for a sworn statement that what's been shown is everything of that nature, without regard to anything but applicable privileges (protected data, etc.)
(paraphrased) knowing only a little bit can be worse than knowing nothing. response: oh man you have no idea how much info there was that we didnt get to!
19:53 "when you have a white house putting pressure on Twitter" ... When Trump was president? I love how you can see people's thoughts get tangled up from insane mental gymnastics. The grievances can morph together in every story they tell themselves.
I thought the most interesting moment was the disagreement about whether they have any responsibility for the majority of readers' takeaway from their reporting. I'm 100% with Destiny -- they absolutely do. Especially when they agreed to release their reporting first and primarily in the ultra-condensed and edited style of a Twitter thread.
And they know they dropped the ball with that responsibility. Releasing it the way they did stripped it of two important factors a story of this importance needs: nuance and context. If that was their intent, then bravo on a job well done.
If the information is already corroborated through multiple methods e.g emails, twiiter names, DM's. Why are we looking for more corroboration? Also you dont try and corroborate already corroborated information from the guilty party. E.G we can see through multiple methods that a killer has DMs saying he was going to kill the victim, we can also see him on CCTV killing the victim, we also have emails of him confessing he killed the victim... Destinys answer is OH YOU DIDNT ASK THE KILLER HIS SIDE OF THE STORY YOUr A BAD JOURNALIST!!!!! Its a lame position
The best part of this discussion is Destiny asking for evidence other than coincidence and them getting upset that they're expected to give evidence other than coincidence.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je Well, no They literally said that “the FBI had their boot on their necks” and when asked for evidence could only raise their hands in helplessness. When told that they were essentially doing PR for Elon, their counterpoint was that they weren’t paid by Musk-which doesn’t counteract the accusation since you could still be good PR for someone even if you’re not paid to be PR for someone. Nor did they circle back and then state, explicitly, that any assumption of wrong doing by the FBI has no evidence against it and it’s simply our guess based on our biases, personal opinions, and assumptions.” Instead, they simply stated that if people got the wrong message from their reports, it’s not their fault the truth was obfuscated by them.
@@kevinligutom6994 You're raising the threshold of evidence to justify you denying them. If this was Trump being accused you'd jump on this in an instant. But because your e-daddy Destiny likes Biden you will endlessly and mindlessly defend him.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je They are accusing the FBI of committing a conspiracy, and the only evidence they have is that Twitter did not ban people that the FBI asked them to ban. I’m sorry, but I’m not even sure what that proves regardless of the accusation.
The second half of this conversation was a rare destiny L. Suggesting a conspiracy to hide documents is absurd. If the reporters misled or mis-stated what happened, the accused parties would simply say what actually happen. But they didn't.
Hey Destiny, super longtime viewer, 4 festor hit squad length of time. Been super appreciating your debates lately. I don't know if you view them as productive or not, but your takes on Tate and Elon buying twitter have been solid and foundational and I've been hearing a lot of disinformation about both and your research streams are mega based.
This was absolute gold - I have no idea how TH-cam hid this from me and showed me the regular drama shit! How does this have only 4.4k likes? 2% like rate?! - this had some of the best moments in a a while while while. Please do more of this - and August, not sure what you can do to make these more sexy - can you get some snippets out of these and put them on TikTok or something with a link to the full thing? Not sure how those clip apps work - can you add links there?
The "framing" of it being malicious is because no one is this stupid to not know what the results of their actions are. If mistakes are always made in one direction, it's not just pure coincidence.
I dont even think the government should be soliciting action against people from private businesses at all. They can ask for records on the people but to ask to review peoples accounts thats government overreach. Similar to them soliciting trespass.
Destiny is the perfect warrior for the status quo. Nothing wrong happened, but if it did, it was nothing out of the ordinary, if it was then Trump did it too, and if he didn't then we don't know enough to say. It's an endless fractal of obfuscation and mindless defense of the Democrat line.
@@WhopperCheeseDota You think appointees are just mindless drones who parrot the current president? You sound like a tankie conspiracy theorists. Grow up. Trump hired competent people who were independent minded. Trump was actually very competent. Moreso than Biden according to you.
i wanted to learn more how trump had made the same requests yet the files were mainly targeting democrats. the first part of the files say that trump whitehouse had also made requests but they failed to substantiate or back it up in any of the later files. making it feel slanted as fuck.
So the way I read this situation is that the Journalists are coming at it from Inductive reasoning and Destiny is coming from Deductive reasoning, and the journalist don’t even realize it.
Holy shit Destiny fucking shredded them. And boy did history prove him right. I kinda feel bad that they just realized they were Elon's Pawn's. At exactly what point did those journalists go uuuhhh Holy shit I just got it and he's completely right. We fucked up. Firstly, how completely funnily enough the journalists barely understand tech and Destiny is far more competent in that area. Secondly, How thick they were in understanding the larger point Destiny was making. That's why it hit so hard when Destiny pushed back much harder in the last quarter of the debate.
The way Destiny steps it up at 1:36:55 is such a delight, finally taking off the gloves and pointing out how ridiculous the reporting was, lacking corroboration and being severely biased, whether intentional or not.
Destiny comes off as very bad faith in this conversation, constantly creating excuses for government overreach, telling these journalists that it's naive to think the government should never make requests of social media organizations and then at 35:00, when told explicitly that there were so many requests being piled on Twitter that they were costing Twitter a large workload, Destiny goes "but is that REALLY pressure from the government"?
@@amazin7006 When a government institution floods you with requests, that's by default pressure. Furthermore, the whole manipulation of Twitter decision to these requests via former FBI agents now working for Twitter is absolutely disgusting. Nobody reasonable can say that the FBI acted in good faith when they poison the well regarding the Hunter Biden story then their own people within Twitter manipulate the decision based on FBI warnings to be what the FBI wants. These people should be in jail, what they did was to use a federal institution to influence the election.
@@fyngolnoldor4891 You can redefine these basic words all you want, everyone can see you're just playing childish semantic games lmao. There was no pressure because no law exists against social media freedom. " Nobody reasonable can say that the FBI acted in good faith when they poison the well regarding the Hunter Biden story" Wtf are you talking about? The FBI had zero interaction with the Hunter Biden story at all. They never even once mentioned Hunter Biden. You are living in an alternate reality. "These people should be in jail," Ah yes, should be in jail for violating the imaginary law that you invented in your head
@@amazin7006 "There was no pressure because no law exists" - utter foolishness. You think government institutions can only exert pressure through a specific law? If you actually believe that you're a massive online fool who has never had to deal with the government in a serious way.
@@fyngolnoldor4891 They exert pressure through enforcement. What are they going to enforce? You're foolish lmao, imagine being this gullible and falling for Elon's grift.
Saying "why is the government dictating what is misinformation?" kind of ignores the surreal place we've been in for the last 4 years. A number of people, hopefully small but a still significant amount cannot establish facts anymore and especially disregard any information from an ideological opponent. It's super dystopian, bizarre and I can't place all the blame on bush or cheney or obamna or anyone else.
Yo I'm a computer scientist with lots of experience with database management and what David and Leighton said about how implausible it is to delete information from a database that quick is so wrong. Knowing how expansive Twitter's API is, I'd say any database admin could wipe (or move) data by keyword within 5 minutes.
Obviously this is true, but they actually discussed this in depth during this discussion. They explained that it would likely be impossible to automate the removal of information that would tend to make twitter look good while leaving the info that made them look bad. Can you think of a keyword that would only ever be used in ‘positive’ emails?
@christoffel840 and I'm telling you it wouldn't be "likely impossible". At worst it's moderately difficult. Elon has every incentive to make sure no good information about Twitter surfaces so it seems everything he is doing is better than the "corrupt and evil former Twitter execs". And yes there's many keywords and phrases you can flag as looking positive it twitters case. It doesn't have to be specifically keywords. A good example is flagging the phrase "We will not censor" or "Censoring is not". Even past automation, Elon's Twitter could of absolutely vetted information before any of the reporters read it. Twitter absolutely had enough staff at the time to assign their database admins to obscure data not favorable to Elon's narrative
It’s interesting to see panic set in their faces when they realize they actually did PR for Elon’s twitter Then they had to find a way to stick to their guns to save face
What I found pretty wild was the idea that it would be difficult to remove certain content from the database before passing to the journalists. Sure, there might be multiple good reasons why the data is trustworthy but it would definitely be trivial to falsify.
@@dieselbaby Yeah, maybe you're right. I was expecting to hear some pushback from the reporters about encryption and cross-checking but the fact that I didn't makes me think they didn't check any of it.
I don't understand the implication here. Say it did happen and they prefiltered some correspondence. What could have been filtered out that would flip this story on its head. What are you saying mightve been hidden from them?
@@nunyabizz3357 It's not about making a story do a 180, but rather making something look worse than it actually was. We should be skeptical of the source, which is Elon Musk, a man that loves the spotlight. It'd make sense for him to want some emails filtered out that makes events look more innocuous in effort to make everything more sensational. People try to make this out to be some political act or whatever, but it really feels like Musk wanting to get some people fanboying for him while spiting the former execs of a company he was forced to buy.
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This debate/interview was wild. I have no idea how journalists could say they didn't even consider contacting the people involved to corroborate the story and/or get additional facts to get a clearer picture of what went down. Shouldn't this be the very basics of investigative journalism?
I really wouldn't call these people journalist just bc the tried to write a story lmaoo. The fact they didn't do this basic step to begin with Is enough to disqualify them. They're agitative propagandists at best
I think they were trying to say the DMs were cross referenced with e-mails and also cross referenced with twitter.
Look up journalistic integrity. They're *supposed* to have a code of ethics. But that's all they are, they're not reinforced by law or anything like that. They should have done more. A good journalist would have followed up on the information. But many don't do on-the-ground old fashioned journalism anymore. Some outlets do, but most of the time it's a few Google searches, reading articles written by other people who did the same thing, and then posting (obviously not everyone). Even if they did have absolutely the truest rawest data, they still should have done more just in case there was information they weren't given or nuance they missed. First-hand sources can still be skewed depending on who is giving them to you.
@@whasian1487 Which would have been fine if they had taken what was said and reported just on that rather than extended that to an insinuation of collusion between Twitter and the FBI/Democrats that didn't exist. Not only did it not exist Twitter worked extensively to change their policies to allow Conservatives to remain on the platform including Trump himself and everything factual email/message reported in the Twitter Files showed there was no conclusion and if there is a bias it's to defending the right, rather than their own unfounded connections that are little more than Conspiracy Theories.
The reason you don't ask for corroboration of leaked facts is because everyone involved will say it's bullsh*t. The same thing happened when Snowden leaked the NSA files in 2013 too, which is why it is a cringe question to ask by Destiny.
How did Destiny manage to get to talk with these guys though? Genuinely impressive. Good going man.
I believe the guy on bottom left cam helped getting the people.
A lot of journalist and scholars are actually very willing to come in and talk about their works
Destiny has a reach that far exceedes any numbers or subscribers you see online. He has talked to so many nieche people and politicians I wouldn't be surprised if he is a household name. Atleast for people under 40
@@kylerBD I doubt these people knew who destiny was before this. You're overestimating that a little bit, but even smaller creators can get journalists and scholars to come on. They're usually excited that anyone would be interested
His blue hair.
David actually seems like a guy worth continuing to talk to on occasion. More open minded, accountable. Respect.
You're just saying that bc of how cute he is
@@femboyaliens789 and he has a huge money tree in the background, mine is perpetually dying,...
Yes. He literally said that Destiny was wrong about Russian Bot farms. Respect.
@@chrisdryer Russian bot farms are real, especially since Ukraine now that Russia has loads of cheap labor, energy, and empty server rooms. A lot of them are hosted in Belarus, Africa and Brazil too.
Google "internet research agency" headquartered in St. Petersburg, and they have direct orders from FSB. In 2018 there were 800,000 russian political troll accounts on Twitter ALONE controlled from this single building. Over 100,000 of them were interacting and arguing under Trump tweets. If you know anything avout sicial media, even just a few hundred active accounts can make HUGE waves. You only need 2500 tweets to get on trending, imagine MILLIONS.
Today since the war in Ukraine it is millions. On youtube there are even more Russian bot accounts than Twitter, facebook/instagram are 2nd worst with such easy sign-up processes. This is real and proven.
He reminds me of Jamie Lannister on the cool
They really didn’t consider this until Destiny asked huh.
It’s either malicious or unbelievably amateur.
Their responses were embarassing.
They were just happy with the dramatic narrative Elon was giving them.
You can see their wheels spinning when he asks that they really never even considered acting like real journalists. The one guy even said he had his conclusions and was working back to justify his case
This is the only good point that Destiny made in the entire thing...and its not even that good of a point. Anyone referenced in these Twitter files 100% has the opportunity to provide their side of the story or correct anything that is incorrect...which nobody has done. Reaching out for a comment would have been nice but at the same time a comment could be made at any time from these people. Asking for a comment from obvious bad actors, manipulators, and politicians is almost pointless. Its like asking the CIA if they killed JFI...regardless of whether or not they did or did not do it their response will always be they did not do it thus asking them for their response is pointless.
I respect David Zweig for how quickly was to admit to what was imo probably a genuine mistake of only questioning one side of the story before coming to the opinions in which he wrote likely seasoned his contributions to the Twitter files with. I wonder if this debate changed any of their overall oppinions are about how comprehensive their research was to disprove their claims before they released them in the Twitter files
They all seem like nice guys and they took in a lot of destiny's points. David was the one who I fealt acknowledged his mistakes more readily though. Its extremely hard to admit your mistakes when your infront of an audience and its very uncommon see within the timespan of a single debate. The majority of the time I've noticed this happen is when they lose confidence and bow down to pressure and I dont believe that was what happened here.
Thats the reason why I singled David out
He kept referring to this as investigation reporting but he never felt it was important to answer any questions and simply present these facts to the people and let them decide? No that is so removed from reporting or what they actually did. They were using cherry picked information from the beginning and they knew it and also decided to not ask any questions outside of a singular source.
The story was already framed for them and they had limited access and time to see it.
Okay I was cleaning and half listened. Listened again over -lunch-
You sir I tip my 🎩 😅that is peak /s.
you would be right if Destiny spoke with a 14yo student that wrote an article for his school journal...
we are talking about professionals here, checking the other side is literally the basic minimum.
there are no excuses
Wow. I'm actually speechless. Destiny is doing the Lord's fucking work that SOMEHOW no one else is doing. Just wow. Props to the David guy though, I can imagine how difficult it must be to admit fault on a massive story you wrote yourself.
That's because he's not bothered about decorum and focuses on being objective rather than neutral
@@thecontextual1one411 "Objective"
"That's just fundamental, you don't need proof" LOL.
no, fuck him. he knew what the fuck they were doing, he admits it at 1:42:11
"I worked backwards" meaning he already had a narrative and was specifically looking for things that would reinforce it
One of my favorite debates on this channel in quite awhile. Much respect to all of the journalists for agreeing to participate - love these opportunities for a 3v1.
My anti-destiny comment: destiny only partially read twitter files thread 7 and it shows. twitter files 8, 9, 11, 12, and 15 (i think) all go into the FBI's dealings with twitter more broadly, and that information is something he clearly didn't know enough about. any conversation about hunter biden was always going to loop around to the more foundational topic of the FBI-twitter connection and destiny was on the back foot. the only reason it wasn't worse for him is because his opponents weren't exactly the best at bringing in the outside information either - it's not like those other twitter files DEFINITIVELY PROVE the fbi was at fault but it was still knowledge destiny lacked and couldn't really reply to as a result. also, going off on the "well we don't know if elon actually gave the journos everything!!!" is possible, but we have no proof of it, and it seemed like grasping at that point.
My pro-destiny comment: it's pretty incredible how destiny got these journalists to admit that they didnt even ask any of the other priors. that makes them look like people who got something legitimately juicy and rushed it to print in order to secure their time in the sun, and didnt corroborate it out of laziness, recklessness, or they didn't want their story damaged by possibly proving it false. moreover, even though destiny's tangent of "well we don't know if elon actually gave the journos everything!!!" WAS a grasp, it's STILL possible, and we have evidence of rightoids using exactly this logic when it suits their own political ends. a great example is the hillary clinton email server, where her lawyers claimed they turned over everything for examination and rightoids online said "hah a likely story". in both cases you have a person who is turning over private information for public perusal (hillary/elon) and in both cases they have an incentive to claim they turned over all of it but actually keep some stuff hidden to push a narrative (hillary wants to be president/elon wants to prove twitter was partisan-left). we don't have proof of either, but both are possible, and rightoids accepted this logic when it helped them (hillary) and ignored it when it hurt them (elon). people are very selective about the conspiracy theories they believe nowadays and destiny inadvertently showed that.
My dude, touch some grass
Looking at things from both sides. Another ShortFatOtaku W
These guys are proof of the importance of journalistic editorial standards.
In one of the newer Sam Harris episodes he talks about the Twitter Files and one of his guests talks about a specific instance where the info was purely taken out of context. Journalism and standards matter. None of those were met here.
in what field are journalists following "standards" or "ethics" ?
@@BudMasta my field
@@BudMasta they aren't. Everyone knows it. Saying this is just a way of cucking for censorship.
@@markwmosley sam harris is the worst person to use as any kind of example, he said he didnt care if biden had kids locked in his basement
Huge props to these guys for agreeing to the interview! This is probably the best talk on the Twitter files out there, and I wouldn't have been possible the authors agreeing to have confrontational conversations.
It's not easy being interviewed critically, and it does seem like they are to some degree, open to criticism. Not everyone can do that!
Of course they don't think they are biased, if they did they wouldn't have wrote the Twitter files in the way they did!
They definitely shouldn't have agreed. They came out being schooled on their own job.
@@williamfowl8670 Depends on what their goal is, these guys are pro free speech. Part of that is not being afraid of criticism.
If they learned something from this then shouldn't that count as a win? Caring only about "winning" or "loosing" in a conversation doesn't allow for room to change or learn.
@@uku5840 I think that came off as generally bad/gullible journalists, who can't imagine that they were possibly doing partisan pr for Twitter. Obviously, retraction and a redo of their investigations would in effect show that they learned (and I don't necessarily mean that their conclusions should change, perhaps they uncover even worse), but I doubt that they will do as such.
@@williamfowl8670 IDK what to tell you, expecting a retraction is just so out of the scope.
Gotta have more reasonable expectations, or you are the one who looks unreasonable.
@@uku5840 Retractions happen. If you take your job seriously, you don't tolerate sub-par work.
Never assume independent journalist immediately means good journalist and vice versa.
Its so impressive how well destiny can handle himself in these type of debates where it’s him vs a group. Awesome content.
Lol he got slapped around and didn't even acknowledge it was happening
destiny has this weirdly extreme normalcy bias.
@@dustinschimmel9152cap
He censorship take is wild though, companies can control ur thoughts. What's next they can control my body
@@dustinschimmel9152 "Slapped around" is that why the Leighton guest had to constantly lie and divert the conversation?
@@mikoi7472 the premise of your question is the only lie here.
This was a genuinely eye opening conversation and the line of questioning was expertly handled. Well done Dest. Actual brain content
Are you retarded? He went the super scepticism he himself criticized, poisoning the well and whataboutism. What in gods name did you think destiny accomplished here? Sowing doubt, a more intelligent attempt of framing it like” this is what the story should have been and this is the question you should have asked but didn’t bcs you were not writing the story I wanted”. He sounded like a conspiracy theorist!
@@piercebros are you sure, lol
It distracts really well from the fact that Destiny is a girls name! Very expertly handled indeed
@@remingtonseely9735 Stupid joke. It's not funny anymore
@Axileus what's actually smooth brained is you making a criticism of Destiny's understanding of the issue yet literally say nothing to back up your argument.
I appreciate that journalism is a tough tedious job but not interviewing, or at least trying, is the reason journalism is subject to a LOT of mistrust today. Good job Destiny
I agree they should have asked the FBI. But does that negate the emails making the requests? Does that prove those are false. No one from Twitter is claiming those emails or money they received from the FBI were false. And the FBI is openly denying any connection to this... So where do you go from there. They should open up to it, but are they going to?
It's about selling a narrative and pandering, while trying to mask yourself as a journalist. Grifting, essentially.
I believe it's more a case that words matter and how you write matters. Putting an inference on your writing shows bias in the writing method. These people need an editor
Not even considering that they were provided filtered information is jaw dropping.
@@mikelipinski7615 what these guys did absolutely is grifting. And to state they did it without getting paid by Musk is pretty sad. On your knees that hard without even getting paid oof.
Damn, you can really see around the 1hour 40 mark that these guys actuslly start to realize what a shit job they did with this story. The guy up top just slunk lower and lower into his chair
We should really, really, insist that they are reporters, not journalists. They report, they don't verify, they don't search, they just report.
There are no journalists anymore, just influencers.
@@damiendiem no, they exist. You’re just too terminally online.
@@lustrazor44 true
Verify what? Are you saying the emails are fake?
Michael,
Nobody is saying they're fake- you can lie by omission
This is what makes editors so important, to double check biases, tone and the general quality of the research done.
which is why i despise substack.
Yea, because there's SO MUCH unbiased institutional reporting being done.
@@ninjadeej Agreed. Editorialising nowadays is more of the "fit the narrative" shoehorning.
@Dj Hill an editor would have totally asked, did you corroborate this claim with the subject.
@@ninjadeej So just because someone did it wrong means no one should try?
I was going to say that thinking something can't be dishonest just because everything is factual has to be one of the biggest red flags for journalists. But then they just kept saying more wild shit I never would expect to hear from a journalist
"journalist" shouldn't be held to an authority figure standard. Theres no bar exam or academy for them but any Journalist worth their salt would follow your words.
On 2x speed destiny not only looks like Sonic, he sounds like Sonic too.
Gotta go fast
Ive been listening to Destiny on 2x for a few years now and I think my brain might be broken
@@adamtwarowski1053 how😂
@@adamtwarowski1053 Mee too brother, but when Destiny pops off I still sometimes have to go back and watch at 1.75 😵💫
@@adamtwarowski1053 damn 1.5x is my max
The main things that blew my mind were that they didn’t consider to vet any of the information that they had directly with the sources. But more importantly they just flat out ignored the possibility that the data source that was being queried could be (most likely was) a subset of the larger data. It’s super easy to just remove everything containing let’s say a few hundred keywords and names. I would have asked them for a list of all the searches that they did. I bet they were definitely slanted against one political party and not the other.
I guarantee Musk chose reporters who he knew wouldn’t vet any information. They worked as unpaid PR, despite their protests
That would have been easy to detect, in two ways in fact.
1) The information would not be there. Hey where is the data where the "xxx" was mentioned?
2) Here is a thread with chunks missing, why?
What sources? The FBI? You think they'll talk, let alone tell the truth?
@@paulmoulton7248 If you're maliciously hiding records you're not going to leave big obvious missing gaps. Maybe a sysadmin could find clues to indicate things were deleted but these journalists clearly did not have that level of access or technical knowhow to whatever system they were given
@@UnionJames Do you think these Journalists do not have staff?
The conversation about which emails they had access to was annoying. It's so easy to set an SQL query to avoid certain people and keywords and to include others. You might not get rid of all the emails you want to exclude but you'll get rid of many of them. Which is exactly what Destiny was saying but they couldn't get through their thick skulls and got butt hurt about him suggesting.
Fr!! I was watching that segment live. Part of my background is computer engineering. Hearing them trying to downplay the possibility of things being pre filtered made me wanna ram my head through a wall. So stupid.
Because it’s a retarded tangent to bring up, so retarded they hasn’t spent any time thinking of it. ALL reporting that is happening from a company opening themselves up or government opening up is impart faith that the party is truly being open. EVEN when congress tells CIA that they have to disclose such and such, there is literally no option other than to trust the CIA is not erasing info.
Jesus y’all are mindfucked on this. Even if the FBI subpoenas files or even surprise warrants, there is no way to guarantee that notes or files weren’t destroyed. you go by what you get. It’s the most basic of basic understandings in investigations.
Did they even say it was an SQL database? They might have just been using the slack/outlook search bar for all we know lol. But yeah if it was SQL that’s hilarious if they thought they were limited there
The fact they mentioned there was NO MENTION of hunter Biden, like, come on, that’s more suspicious than finding them talking about him
@@StillElias A SQL query doesn't require a conspiracy though?
The lack of computer knowledge from these journalists on top of not following up for comments is mindblowing. Elon literally made them his personal PR team to destroy "old" twitter's reputation, didn't get paid for their journalistic work that they printed on Elon's own site.
The lack of real journalism and effort to get the full story is basically the type of attitude you'd expect from someone on their last Friday after they put in their two weeks notice.
David Zweig was finally good faith enough to say he agreed with Destiny. I hope he keeps this conversation in his mind moving forward while reporting.
Destiny pointed out that the top-right guy was engaging in Whataboutisms. Then in his next ramble, he proceeds to just do it all over again. Holy yikes.
Refreshing to see some content here that isn't just more redpill conversation
Seriously, I'm soo done hearing about the red pill. It's like the same exact conversation over n over again.
@@DatHombre Hopefully that will be the trend as we start getting closer to primary season
I agree.
WORD. I haven't been watching that much lately cause I got so bored of the red pill stuff. Those guys are just so fucking boring. Always the same arguments. This video is such a breath of fresh air.
Much respect to all the journalists willing to talk to Destiny. Opening yourself to critisicism is never easy.
The ambush was perfect. David started to switch sides and get sense that maybe there is something they missed. Bill seems more ride or die kinda guy, but its nice David got skewed a bit - really surprising, but also I give a lot of credit to David, it is not easy to do so during a course of convo, very special people can ingest and agree so quickly.
And acknowledge their errors on such a massive story. Most people are this point are married to their narrative and/or unconsciously ride the sunk-cost-fallacy till the wheels fall off. Major props. You’d *never* see that from a Glenn Greenwald per se.
"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for omniliberal children" - Destiny
I almost wish destiny explained how the hypothetical was to illustrate how they were unwilling to skeptical to the musk side. But seeing them all loose it at being confronted with being unwitting pr was priceless
Some of my previous jobs as an engineer I had access to literally the entire business database of the company and could easily delete or overwrite anything. these guys are complete delusional. one developer with the proper access can wipe out any information that contains certain keywords in mere second, even from thousands of records. it's 100% in the realms of possibility tht the data was tampered with.
I WAS SHOCKED to hear them say it wasnt possible like i can do it within 2 minutes if you give me acces like what do you mean this is a common thing to do like ALLLLL THE TIIIIIME/
Im a dumb ass who can barely run my home network & even I can see the tools at my finger tips to limit what people see in a database lol
I was just floored at that moment. These guys believe you need no evidence to assume the FBI or CIA are breaking laws or regulations but Twitter & Elon who had both motive, access, & ability at no cost couldn't possibly be trying to manipulate them.
@@AspiringDevil I am not even a backend developer but If I was given permissions to twitters databases and I knew what I am looking for, I could just query and delete any data I want in mere minutes. Not all data, just the ones that contain some keywords or names, or written by certain people. And Elon had all the power to give any developer the permission (or to make an admin give them permission). These journalists had no idea what they were talking about. If I have more time? I can double, triple check, filter and search in multiple ways. What is possible though that they were shown slack/teams conversations which would be difficult to fake or delete.
“I’m offended by your comments destiny do you think we have no integrity?” - 🤡
yes
No journalistic integrity anyway, based on their own explanation of their work lol
They literally admit that they did not contact the relevant parties to confirm/deny the claims they published. Literally basic steps of journalism were skipped to get a narrative out.
Damn the clown emoji, you got them good!!!
@@xbabu142x you’d think someone would have come out and said something if they really had none .
I think this is an excellent demonstrator that these Journalists have not been asked to corroborate their stuff for way too long.
The news has strayed from journalism hard. Zweig may have started out with integrity and got weaned off by the cycle.
yes so Trump was sorta right??!! Fake News & journalism exists!! lol. Seriously though these guys got owned by Destiny. Very silly humans...
@Axileus material that came from one very specific source with a very specific agenda
the post-factorio arc looks promising
....he doesn't know....
This prediction was accurate
This video black-pilled me on journalists. How can they not see that having only one side of information can’t mislead people? That’s so lazy. What if a company ONLY shared their sales with their shareholders, but not their expenses? It’s not hard at all to think of examples.
"we need daddy government to filter the truth for us, we can't handle it"
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je no, just to filter out bots like you
@@MrNewVegas2281 standards are arbitrary. just give us the raw truth. no nanny state should be entitled to filter this out to us.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je Which they failed to do. They gave us Elon's filtered truth and didn't even question it. Game Journalist actions but where's TwitterFileGate?
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je These journalists did not give us the raw truth
Lesson on why it is best to be skeptical especially when evidence confirms your prior assumptions. Honestly engaging with data that challenges your assumption helps build confidence in your hypothesis.
The part about corroboration is really frustrating, honestly. I don't think Destiny actually believes in his hypothetical, but is using it to illustrate that you NEED to corroborate and you NEED to be at least a little distrustful of your sources, regardless of how plainly clear it may be that they are trustful. He should probably have made it super clear here that the corroboration makes you look more credible as a journalist even if in this case it were to effectively do nothing.
It’s crazy to me that this interaction didn’t get mainstream attention. We have individuals who worked on the twitter files, basically copping to the fact that the investigation was highly confined to the parameters established by musk, we have destiny poking holes (effectively) on the official narrative laid down by shellenberger and woodhouse , and destiny also effectively questioning the investigative methods of these journalists. We need another conversation like this on burisma and hunter Biden investigations with those involved to get a clear idea of what’s actually happening here.
Babe wake up, new iconic Destiny debate just dropped
The guy on the bottom right by the end i think slowly starts to realize that maybe he was used and manipulated
The guy on the top right started his reporting with the end in sight, and found a way there and is sticking to it (everything you are taught not to do in journalism school)
@@Adeon55 As opposed to what? Alt media? They're literally 20x worse lol.
@@Adeon55 so you agree with me?
you could see his face start to drop lol. the Woodhouse guy was way too smug and just doubled down on it.
@58:30 the way destiny tries to justify the shadow banning and suppression of right wing social media users is crazy. This guys just a diehard ideologue, there's no point talking to guy like that.
Yeah, that completely makes me not care about what he's saying at all, even if he is right about some of this. I also can't imagine why a STREAMER would find that acceptable.
I took a journalism course in college. I'm not that smart, but I'm pretty sure you're supposed to at least attempt to get responses from the people you're reporting about. These guys ARE smart.
Leighton Woodhouse is a fascist in training. He’s gonna be on RT this time next year railing against Zelensky.
Something foundational that the journos won't accept (or maybe it's me that can't get over it) is that no matter how great their access was, their work is suspect because they published it on the Twitter platform. They're right that most every source has a motive and angle, and they clearly knew Elon wanted to puff himself up and kick the old regime. Despite that it didn't occur to them (or maybe the access was too temtping to resist) that by hosting the work on Twitter itself as a *condition* they sacrificed any appearance of independence.
They keep saying they saw Twitter employees acting in good faith and whatnot but funny how that’s not what they were saying in their “Twitter files”, yet they claim they weren’t writing to push a narrative
Holy shit these guys are journalists, my man said u can't do PR unless you have a PR contract 😳
Big 🧠
Jesus Christ he studied up... Amazing job Destiny.
politics aside, this kind of conversation is so rare to see yet so entertaining and informative, we really need more content like this in media in general
1:16:59 this was the most satisfying display of exposing someone’s bias
"yeah bro they made a copy of the database with only the info they want you to see"
he was so desperate for a way out of the simple fact that the government controlled a private company for political gains.
David(Covid guy) in so many words stated he started with his conclusion and worked his way backwards. IMO that’s just a terrible way to go about reporting on any story.
@@oldscotty9507 that’s assuming he’s actually trying to be nonpartisan lol Elon is fully aware of what he’s doing
@@xillaTV yes, that’s my opinion also.
The first amendment is not absolute. A carve out should be made to punish people such as him. Dangerous and irresponsible.
Wild part of this is them thinking it would be weird for Elon to have read through or had a legal team read through all past emails to get a strong idea of what is happening in the company then would easily turn over what he deemed good for his image to PR posts.
The idea that elon musk had a team go over tens of thousands of emails with a fine toothed comb to remove hypothetical content that would have somehow exonerated twitter and gone against the thrust of the emails that were actually reported is a literal conspiracy theory.
@@christoffel840 It's not a literal conspiracy theory it's common practice. You would not buy a company and not go through their communications. This is what you hire Lawyers to do it's their job to go through this content to determine what is good and bad for the company.
"We had to read so computers can't have done it"😂🎉
Jesus, I'm a data analyst for over a decade and these dudes are waaaaayyy to confident about what they got. I've passed audits on the spot by clearing out junk from a search. Like give me the .bak file with every table that doesn't include protected user info which should be separate from what might be interesting....also the fact they didn't get any summary reports is... well... if I wanted to hide something from reporters interested in digging I would just let them pretend to drive a search and waste time looking at 3, 4, 5 induvidual accounts. Bet he gave them "sugguestions" on where and what to look at. Weird Elon never gave access to anyone who would know how to run a simple query.
Hold up, 😂 “It’s not appropriate for me to answer those questions” as an investigative journalist! You mean questions like “Is this credible?”? 😂
At first I thought these dudes seemed sort of reasonable but when they saying there is no way Twitter could have manipulated the supplied data I lost it 😂 😂 😂
"I saw the data twitter showed me so it's totes true!"
I love how they act like Elon Musk doesn't have the resources to get a team together to block off damaging communications.
Also, the point they make about someone doing searches in front of them, that person could have purposely been access gated from unfavorable data... They are so tech stupid.
Do you think we have no integrity? Sorta kinda, yeah
The D man didnt wanna say, thank god the so called "journalist" figured it out lmfa9
I have written for two newspapers and a magazine in the past, and I was a journalism drop out, and these guys seem to be in agreement to do worse than a journalism dropout...I never wrote a story without interviewing multiple sources or at least checking with multiple sources for comment, it was a standard practice, my old editors would not even publish anything that was single sourced from data. Unless I missed something...
You’re right on! That’s why three hucksters disguised as journalists were taken down be Destiny. Who’s no slouch by any means
Look at Woodhouse’s face. He’s listening intently to the others, knowing that they’ve all been played(by Musk)and there’s no way out right here.
They need to take destiny's approach, always try and argue both sides. It seems like they had an agenda and dug in one direction
"I worked backwards" ROFL yeah, we can tell...
In the legal world, when we object to the production of a document (attorney-client privilege, etc.), we are required to produce a "Privilege Log", produce the documents (even if entirely redacted) and describe the date and type of communication, and why it's covered by a given relev privilege. Btw, reporters and journalists absolutely are aware of this. The ExxonMobil example is perfect.
They could've also at least asked for a sworn statement that what's been shown is everything of that nature, without regard to anything but applicable privileges (protected data, etc.)
If people don't want to watch the entire thing, skip to about 1:34:00 and watch for a few minutes to have your mind blown.
😆😆 yea it's the hair dye
Didn't the transparency happened cuz of outside party that is Elon, its incredibly different from CIA releasing its own data. Wtf
(paraphrased) knowing only a little bit can be worse than knowing nothing. response: oh man you have no idea how much info there was that we didnt get to!
And knowing a little can often be better than knowing nothing. Understand his point but its just rhetoric.
@@ogzombieblunt4626 But you have no idea if it is good or bad because you do not have full access. You are not making any sense here.
19:53 "when you have a white house putting pressure on Twitter"
... When Trump was president?
I love how you can see people's thoughts get tangled up from insane mental gymnastics. The grievances can morph together in every story they tell themselves.
I thought the most interesting moment was the disagreement about whether they have any responsibility for the majority of readers' takeaway from their reporting. I'm 100% with Destiny -- they absolutely do. Especially when they agreed to release their reporting first and primarily in the ultra-condensed and edited style of a Twitter thread.
And they know they dropped the ball with that responsibility. Releasing it the way they did stripped it of two important factors a story of this importance needs: nuance and context. If that was their intent, then bravo on a job well done.
Amazing interview. It’s unfortunate how many people confuse editorializing for journalism, and this goes a long way in highlighting that.
THIS IS THE BEST LEFTIE CONTENT I EVER SEEN
no disrespect to amazing atheist, vaush, hasan, Sam, Kyle, etc etc. This puts Destiny on another level
im gay
Prove it.
Did you think to contact the FBI before you posted that?
How gay are you? 🤔 Really, super gay or only a lil Itty bitty gay? A big hardy steak gay or a light salad and lemon spritzer gay?
Nice.
Are you going to take your word for it? Where is your corroboration?
If the information is already corroborated through multiple methods e.g emails, twiiter names, DM's. Why are we looking for more corroboration? Also you dont try and corroborate already corroborated information from the guilty party. E.G we can see through multiple methods that a killer has DMs saying he was going to kill the victim, we can also see him on CCTV killing the victim, we also have emails of him confessing he killed the victim... Destinys answer is OH YOU DIDNT ASK THE KILLER HIS SIDE OF THE STORY YOUr A BAD JOURNALIST!!!!! Its a lame position
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@@saicharand7765
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The best part of this discussion is Destiny asking for evidence other than coincidence and them getting upset that they're expected to give evidence other than coincidence.
They never claimed they did. It's all circumstantial duh
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je
Well, no
They literally said that “the FBI had their boot on their necks” and when asked for evidence could only raise their hands in helplessness.
When told that they were essentially doing PR for Elon, their counterpoint was that they weren’t paid by Musk-which doesn’t counteract the accusation since you could still be good PR for someone even if you’re not paid to be PR for someone.
Nor did they circle back and then state, explicitly, that any assumption of wrong doing by the FBI has no evidence against it and it’s simply our guess based on our biases, personal opinions, and assumptions.”
Instead, they simply stated that if people got the wrong message from their reports, it’s not their fault the truth was obfuscated by them.
@@kevinligutom6994 lol pay more attention next time.
@@kevinligutom6994 You're raising the threshold of evidence to justify you denying them. If this was Trump being accused you'd jump on this in an instant. But because your e-daddy Destiny likes Biden you will endlessly and mindlessly defend him.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je
They are accusing the FBI of committing a conspiracy, and the only evidence they have is that Twitter did not ban people that the FBI asked them to ban.
I’m sorry, but I’m not even sure what that proves regardless of the accusation.
Density is running PR for Joe Biden.
This was actually a great use of your platform
The second half of this conversation was a rare destiny L. Suggesting a conspiracy to hide documents is absurd. If the reporters misled or mis-stated what happened, the accused parties would simply say what actually happen. But they didn't.
From Justin tv to queen rushes to becoming a lefty pillar. This has been quite a ride
I’m so glad destiny isn’t sinking 90% of his brain power into factoria anymore
Why does the guy on the right look like Sargon if he stopped eating for a month
Hey Destiny, super longtime viewer, 4 festor hit squad length of time. Been super appreciating your debates lately. I don't know if you view them as productive or not, but your takes on Tate and Elon buying twitter have been solid and foundational and I've been hearing a lot of disinformation about both and your research streams are mega based.
What a great discussion. This is the exact discourse we need as a society to reconcile our differences and biases.
This was absolute gold - I have no idea how TH-cam hid this from me and showed me the regular drama shit! How does this have only 4.4k likes? 2% like rate?! - this had some of the best moments in a a while while while.
Please do more of this - and August, not sure what you can do to make these more sexy - can you get some snippets out of these and put them on TikTok or something with a link to the full thing? Not sure how those clip apps work - can you add links there?
The "framing" of it being malicious is because no one is this stupid to not know what the results of their actions are.
If mistakes are always made in one direction, it's not just pure coincidence.
This is the content I subscribed for
Destiny dumb on this one.
Problem here Destiny is looking for the smoking gun in every discussion, like as if any involved would put anything like this in writing
I dont even think the government should be soliciting action against people from private businesses at all. They can ask for records on the people but to ask to review peoples accounts thats government overreach. Similar to them soliciting trespass.
Destiny is the perfect warrior for the status quo. Nothing wrong happened, but if it did, it was nothing out of the ordinary, if it was then Trump did it too, and if he didn't then we don't know enough to say. It's an endless fractal of obfuscation and mindless defense of the Democrat line.
It was trumps FBI, not the democrats
@@WhopperCheeseDota the Establishment was always anti-Trump.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je so the guys Trump appointed were anti Trump? How incompetent was he lmao
@@WhopperCheeseDota You think appointees are just mindless drones who parrot the current president? You sound like a tankie conspiracy theorists. Grow up. Trump hired competent people who were independent minded. Trump was actually very competent. Moreso than Biden according to you.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je Oh so what the FBI did was competent then so there's no problem?
He should talk to Matt tiabbi.
Surprisingly good coverage here
i wanted to learn more how trump had made the same requests yet the files were mainly targeting democrats. the first part of the files say that trump whitehouse had also made requests but they failed to substantiate or back it up in any of the later files. making it feel slanted as fuck.
Love seeing this content, more of Destiny on the world stage!!
Lmao it's literally the classic anti-Destiny argument: the FBI didn't actually do anything bad, but they shouldn't have been so mean
Isn't planting misleading ideas with a massive influence a bad thing? So yeah they did do 'something' bad.
The whole basis of his argument was that the FBI actually believes Russia had a big influence on the 2016 election which is absolutely not the case.
As much as I also enjoy drama content, this was my favorite video of the year.
Destiny with the same take as Sam Seder. Not too surprising since the facts of their own investigation suggests exactly what destiny says in his intro
"Rage In Favor of The Machine" - Destiny
So the way I read this situation is that the Journalists are coming at it from Inductive reasoning and Destiny is coming from Deductive reasoning, and the journalist don’t even realize it.
Also David seems like a cool dude.
Holy shit Destiny fucking shredded them. And boy did history prove him right. I kinda feel bad that they just realized they were Elon's Pawn's. At exactly what point did those journalists go uuuhhh Holy shit I just got it and he's completely right. We fucked up. Firstly, how completely funnily enough the journalists barely understand tech and Destiny is far more competent in that area. Secondly, How thick they were in understanding the larger point Destiny was making. That's why it hit so hard when Destiny pushed back much harder in the last quarter of the debate.
I like Dorsey's idea to release absolutely everything. Otherwise it is just cherry picked in my eyes.
You could tell the guy next to Destiny wanted to go Maga Mad, but tried his best to keep under control.
The way Destiny steps it up at 1:36:55 is such a delight, finally taking off the gloves and pointing out how ridiculous the reporting was, lacking corroboration and being severely biased, whether intentional or not.
Eff off , Commie
@@volumedealer2716you're literally a commie if you disagree with Jitter, lol.
Random, but I fucking love the pen noise sound effect synced up with text.
Had never heard of Destiny before, but I’m definitely subscribing. This was great.
Destiny comes off as very bad faith in this conversation, constantly creating excuses for government overreach, telling these journalists that it's naive to think the government should never make requests of social media organizations and then at 35:00, when told explicitly that there were so many requests being piled on Twitter that they were costing Twitter a large workload, Destiny goes "but is that REALLY pressure from the government"?
Top right guy was lying it didn't cost twitter a large workload at all. And yes, workload is not pressure.
@@amazin7006 When a government institution floods you with requests, that's by default pressure. Furthermore, the whole manipulation of Twitter decision to these requests via former FBI agents now working for Twitter is absolutely disgusting. Nobody reasonable can say that the FBI acted in good faith when they poison the well regarding the Hunter Biden story then their own people within Twitter manipulate the decision based on FBI warnings to be what the FBI wants. These people should be in jail, what they did was to use a federal institution to influence the election.
@@fyngolnoldor4891 You can redefine these basic words all you want, everyone can see you're just playing childish semantic games lmao. There was no pressure because no law exists against social media freedom.
" Nobody reasonable can say that the FBI acted in good faith when they poison the well regarding the Hunter Biden story"
Wtf are you talking about? The FBI had zero interaction with the Hunter Biden story at all. They never even once mentioned Hunter Biden. You are living in an alternate reality.
"These people should be in jail,"
Ah yes, should be in jail for violating the imaginary law that you invented in your head
@@amazin7006 "There was no pressure because no law exists" - utter foolishness. You think government institutions can only exert pressure through a specific law? If you actually believe that you're a massive online fool who has never had to deal with the government in a serious way.
@@fyngolnoldor4891 They exert pressure through enforcement. What are they going to enforce? You're foolish lmao, imagine being this gullible and falling for Elon's grift.
Saying "why is the government dictating what is misinformation?" kind of ignores the surreal place we've been in for the last 4 years. A number of people, hopefully small but a still significant amount cannot establish facts anymore and especially disregard any information from an ideological opponent. It's super dystopian, bizarre and I can't place all the blame on bush or cheney or obamna or anyone else.
Yo I'm a computer scientist with lots of experience with database management and what David and Leighton said about how implausible it is to delete information from a database that quick is so wrong. Knowing how expansive Twitter's API is, I'd say any database admin could wipe (or move) data by keyword within 5 minutes.
Obviously this is true, but they actually discussed this in depth during this discussion. They explained that it would likely be impossible to automate the removal of information that would tend to make twitter look good while leaving the info that made them look bad. Can you think of a keyword that would only ever be used in ‘positive’ emails?
@christoffel840 and I'm telling you it wouldn't be "likely impossible". At worst it's moderately difficult. Elon has every incentive to make sure no good information about Twitter surfaces so it seems everything he is doing is better than the "corrupt and evil former Twitter execs". And yes there's many keywords and phrases you can flag as looking positive it twitters case. It doesn't have to be specifically keywords. A good example is flagging the phrase "We will not censor" or "Censoring is not". Even past automation, Elon's Twitter could of absolutely vetted information before any of the reporters read it. Twitter absolutely had enough staff at the time to assign their database admins to obscure data not favorable to Elon's narrative
It’s interesting to see panic set in their faces when they realize they actually did PR for Elon’s twitter
Then they had to find a way to stick to their guns to save face
What I found pretty wild was the idea that it would be difficult to remove certain content from the database before passing to the journalists. Sure, there might be multiple good reasons why the data is trustworthy but it would definitely be trivial to falsify.
@@dieselbaby Yeah, maybe you're right. I was expecting to hear some pushback from the reporters about encryption and cross-checking but the fact that I didn't makes me think they didn't check any of it.
I don't understand the implication here.
Say it did happen and they prefiltered some correspondence. What could have been filtered out that would flip this story on its head.
What are you saying mightve been hidden from them?
@@nunyabizz3357 It's not about making a story do a 180, but rather making something look worse than it actually was. We should be skeptical of the source, which is Elon Musk, a man that loves the spotlight. It'd make sense for him to want some emails filtered out that makes events look more innocuous in effort to make everything more sensational.
People try to make this out to be some political act or whatever, but it really feels like Musk wanting to get some people fanboying for him while spiting the former execs of a company he was forced to buy.