Spine Indexing: Is It Worth Your Time?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2019
- In this video I cover the most effective way to spine your arrows, and why I think it's worth the time to do so.
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Hey guys, I'm out of town on a rafting trip until Monday. Feel free to leave questions below and I'll get back to you when I'm back. Enjoy the video!
Hey man, I brought some prefletched arrows from Victory and I'm wondering do I line my nock up with that or find the hard spine and line it up with that, cheers from a greenhorn
That short back devise that your spinning and grinding the point of arrow on in the video what is it called and what company makes it.looks like a great devise.can you please let me know in a reply.thank you and great video
@@alldaydevo Victory arrows are already spine aligned.
Thx for the video. Have you ever had to nock index after spine indexing an arrow? Do you always get that bullet hole in paper after spine indexing bareshaft (assuming no human error)? Is spine indexing with your machine just a faster type of nock indexing? Thx again, have a good one.
If you stand the arrow up on the ground and put pressure on it with a book, it will flex one specific way consistently. Mark that direction, and repeat next arrow.
From what I understand you should cut arrow first then do this test, you are actually testing for first dynamic bend and cutting arrow could shift this bend location depending on arrow.
About 5 years ago I built a similar spine tester from a design obtained elsewhere on you tube. It works great. Let me tell others about an experience I had while shooting at our local archery shop. A friend of mine and I were shooting while noticing another shooter using a Hooter Shooter. We asked what he was doing, he told us he was nock indexing a new dozen arrows. We asked for what purpose, he told us about his process of rotating nocks until all arrows shoot into the same hole. I asked him if he would shoot a few of my arrows. To his amazement and mine, the three arrows I handed him all shot in the same hole. He asked how I was able to get them to do this. I told him about the spine tester I built, and that all arrows I make get spine checked, before fletching. It does make a difference. My friend had him shoot 3 of his arrows, these arrows were the same shafts as mine but not spine checked, they were just fletched and assembled. These arrows shot in about a .75 inch group, definitely not in the same hole. He too now has me spine check his arrows.
I stumbled on a similar way of doing this by complete accident while I was bored just inspecting my arrows one day. you need a mini mag-light with an L.E.D. bulb or any small flashlight with an L.E.D. buld that's bright. Pull the nock out and shine the light inside at a 45° angle and about the first 1/4 inch deep slowly turn the arrow the light will reflect off the carbon and once you get to the seam or spine where the arrow was put together you will see a change in reflection it'll be shiney on one side of the spine and dull on the other almost like a shadow
I happened on to this as well. Just having a look one day. So now I four Fletch but I put that seam in between the two fletchs. They shoot well
Have you checked this against a spine tester to see if you get the same results? I'd put no stock in it.
I'm using a 48in bar clamp with a hole drilled at the top of both clamps. Place arrow in crank and arrow bends when its straight down mark works great!!!
Stumbled across your channel a bit ago man what great content....I'd love to see a video on building the most forgiving hunting arrow!
great vid again Kellen...
Hey do you have a video on how to set up a bow for long-distance shooting
This process sounds very logical, Im just curious if anyone has actually taken the time to spine test and mark every shaft, then, shoot every arrow in the group as a BARE shaft through paper, to see if in fact, they shoot consistently. Regardless of a perfect bullet hole in paper, thats not what Im saying, as I realize adjustments will be need to be made to bow to achieve a “perfect” bullet hole. I just mean shoot every spine tested and marked arrow through paper, to see if indeed, the paper tear, or bullet holes are consistent.
I feel like that would make a great video!!!
“ Proof is in the pudding” Lol
I made my own out of 1x4 oak from Home Depot with a CNC mill and skate bearings. I had to order the 2 pound cannon ball fishing weight. I use a dial indicator to find the spine, however, under that weight, just spinning the arrow you can find it. I do not fletch my own arrows, but will rotate the nock to be in line with the spine. I just have to feel for the "knob" on the side of the nock to tell me which way it faces.
Dorge at firenock made a great system!
I have been thinking about this for a long time and I actually started to square the ends of my arrows.But I think I've come to a decision and that is that if you're insert goes down inside the shaft how can it possibly wobble. if you exaggerated it and cut the end of your arrow at a 45° angle the insert is still square with the shaft.
Does it matter if the stiff side is oriented on the top/bottom vs. left or right side when the arrow is released it will flex , and paradox somewhat ..?
Very helpful video. At about 4:35 in this video you said "making sure your broadheads indexed". How do you index your broadheads?
Question: is there any reason to nock tune arrows after spine indexing? Sounds like spine indexing is a more sure fire method of locating the spine
You can also buy victory arrows that come spine aligned and marked out of the box
Aren't victory arrows made in China? I do know Easton arrows are Made In The USA.
Floating works well for the common DIY guy. Just have patience and use soapy water (less surface tension). Spin the arrow several times on the water surface, arrow should always stop with the heavy side (spine) down. Its gravity folks!
I'm building arrows and want to take spine into account for the first time. Any tips of finding the spine without a machine? I'm pretty crafty and going to try to rig something up. Also running 4 vanes so how would that be different for the cock vane?
Does spine Indexing would replace nock tuning right? Since that would change where the spine is aligned
Fender man Approved!
Small world, I have the same machine and I have been doing that for years. Caught my attention you’re doing good work keep it up. almost forgot. Where is your laser? You can get a laser for that to make sure you put your mark on the exact center.
If a spine tester is too expensive, you can get spine aligned arrows from Victory Archery like the Sport .166 and some more.
You can also do it with a bow press
I was in the middle of line up the spine I have the machine to do so but during the prosses I looked down inside the arrow while spinning the arrow and there was a glare from the light in the room as I rotated the light glare goes around till it hits the spine I checked it with all my arrows I've done and it was right on the mark from the machine try this urself this could possibly save you some money
Will this work for fmj 6mm or do u don’t have to worry about that with the aluminum cover
Very good explanation. As a traditional finger shooter, I have to ask: what is the optimal orientation for the stiff side when shooting a recurve or modern longbow with finger release?
Razvan G
For finger shooters arrows are generally spine indexed to the side. Shooting with fingers cause a horizontal flex. Release shooters will have a much smaller vertical flex.
Are the arrows that are fletched from factory that you can buy spine/nock indexed and squared up??
what's the name machine you use for spine index
Two questions - Would you suppose aluminum arrows have a special spine like this ? And ... how feasible is it to have identical weights on shafts (with no tolerances) would +\- 5gr is going to show up downrange ?
I kind of want to test this... aluminum arrow shafts are made by cold-stretching, unlike carbon arrows which are rolled from sheets, so if they are made absolutely perfectly they shouldn't have a spine. Of course, it would be nearly impossible to achieve that kind of perfection, so they likely will have a spine caused by imperfections in the thickness of the wall of the shaft. As for identical weight arrows, you'll need to spend a lot of time and money buying and weighting shafts and components to get each part weighting the same. It's possible, but not practical. 5 grains will make less of a difference than average shot variation would anyway, there's probably 5 grains difference in glue between finished arrows to be honest.
I also have a question about vanes, what is the optimum location? As far back to the neck without string interference? Or something else? I usually put mine further back than most people do. I do not know if this makes a difference or not.
You want then as close to the back of the arrow as you can without any face contact. Just a little contact can make a big miss!
Great video, can you please tell me if this also applies to Easton axis arrows? Keep up the good work!
Watch the video at 10:20
Man you need to move to Mississippi and open a bow shop. Somewhere in Smith or Jasper County
Sucks you guys are so far from me wish your shop was in my state
My Victory arrows are "Spine Aligned". There is a mark on all of them that seems to mark the spine from the facory. Is that the same thing as it being indexed?
Yep. Victory just does it for you, definitely a time saver!
We want to know the arrow spine so that we can ensure each arrow flexes the same out of the bow, and we can pick the direction we want it to flex. However, the arrow flex direction is decided by the weakest part. Are you 100% sure the weakest part is opposite the strongest?
Firenock PAPS with the optional vibration module is what he is using. $$$
What the name/maker of the spine index testing equipment? I have noticed that most shops near me in PNW don't have this equipment/capability which is disappointing. Props to Bow Rack and IOP!
I like that spine tool is there a brand name I'm a fanatic on building my own arrows but I start with match grade FMJs and Axis I spend a lot of time bareshaft papertuning and silver sharpie the shafts before I fletch them on the vane master pro that will definitely save time
Raymond, if you look closely at your FMJs you'll notice a faint bluish line running down the center. This is your spine. They come indexed. Axis on the other hand do not.
Rick Hopkins is this the case with prefletched shafts? Got some some of the woodland camo fmjs and couldn’t find bareshafts anywhere.
Marc Warner: I'm not sure about the woodland camo. If you see a blue line or a line at all running all the way down one side, that will be your spine, And you can refletch, and place the cock vane properly if it isn't. A spine tool is always the best way though.
Who makes that spine tester?
Can you find the spines from arrows that are already cut with inserts installed?
Yes
Is it worth doing if you're using a 4 fletch on a carbon arrow?
Yeah thebspine needs to be oriented vertically no matter what your vane configuration is.
Good information for new shooters, on your cuts you can also trim from both ends to remove wobble, also you can foot your arrows and stiffen your spine to shoot heavier weight if wanted . Indexing blades and vanes makes zero difference.
So the odd fletch goes on the stiff side or the weak side?
I think you show stiff side.
Yeah generally you put the odd vane on the stiff side.
Back in the mid '90s, after I had already been bowhunting for 15 or so yrs, I decided to get serious. I had a fletching jig, grain scale, spin tester, chronograph....all the toys to make myself a better archer. I was pretty fanatical about it. I weighed each component of each arrow and made sure foc was identical on all of my arrows and that they all weighed within 3 grains of each other. It certainly helped me on the target range. I had 5 Robin Hoods in 2 seasons. My friends all thought I was crazy to be so anal about it. Well, now I see their point. The new generation is taking archery to extremes I could never have imagined. But guess what. I'm not fanatical anymore but I kill more and bigger bucks than I ever did back then. I've become a hunter first, archer second.
@Karma Lodro Absolutely. The thing is, for shooting a deer at 40 yards or less, arrows being that precise aren't really necessary. These days, in the videos I've been watching, the young guys aren't happy unless they can hit a dime at 100 yards. I'm too old and that kind of accuracy isn't important to me. What I WILL say, though, is that building your own arrows and being meticulous in the process and knowing all your arrows fly identically gives you much more confidence. Everyone knows archery is 90% mental, so that extra confidence makes a world of difference.
has anyone tested if the visible backbone (inside an arrow shaft) corealates with the stiffest spine on an index tester. On an arrow like a GT Hunter it is dead easy to see where the construction rolled backbone of the shaft is. I'd just like to know if this IS the stiffest part of the arrow and also the heaviest.
I used this exact same spine tester, a flashlight to locate the backbone inside the shaft, and the factory "spine alignment" on Victory Arrows and they are all different.. That's what I found
@@tat2dlukydevl thanks. was starting to think as much. Out of 12 arrows, I'd individually nock tune them and 1/2 of them would not correalate with the visible internal seam. I don't think thats the way to tell. Paige Pierce did a vid recently demonstrating how bare shaft arrow rotation can be either way off the same bow. I've also found that when nock tuning. Most turn right but quite a few will turn left. I wonder if thats due to 'thinking' you've got the spine aligned due to following a stickered line, bath test or torching the seam but really you arent even close, and THAT is whats causing it. You always get that weird arrow in a set that strays despite it being in spec. Maybe its spine is not where you think it is and its trying to spin left despite your right fletches or just planing off?? I always nock tune bare shafts now. I individually nock tune each shaft referenced against a fletched for straight arrow flight at 15 yards or so. I then fire all 12 bareshaft (each one numbered) into a group at 20y to check they are all doing the same thing. The outliers either get more attention or rejected. Its the only way to be sure every arrow is doing the same thing.
Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't you want to putt the index fletch 180* from where you are marking so the initial bend is away from the rest/riser? Or does it not matter as long as they are all the same? On a compound with a fixed blade or a recurve, it seems like the arrow would flex into the blade or riser respectively.
Compound bows put a vertical flex into the arrow, so you want the spine aligned vertically. There’s some debate as to whether you want it on the top bottom, but I’ve found that as long as they’re all the same, they’ll all shoot very consistently.
Who makes that specific spine tester?
Firenock PAPS, the vibration module is sold separately.
Have you tested Victory arrows that come "spine aligned" Just curious if its nothing more than marketing gimmick?
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. I love my RIP TKOs but I'm curious how reliable their spine aligned indication is.
what is the name of the spine checker you are using
Fire Nock makes it
Just came across this video and was looking at where to by an indexer. I can't find one to buy like shown in the video. Does anyone have a link to an indexer?
I'm pretty sure Fire Nock makes that one.
As a traditional wood arrow shooter also. Spine testing is a necessity. As a carbon/compound arrow shooter it's a fine tuning accessory I use. Look into the "ACE" Spine-Spin Tester Model 107. It's expensive but also shows the spine weight of arrows and the arrow "stiff" side... They're available from Lancaster Archery and Three Rivers Archery.
What are the brands on these tools I've been looking and I can't find much to purchase any info would be great and great video man
snag em n tag em I know the shaft end squaring tool they had at bass pro for over 100$! It’s apparently constructed of one special meteorite material! As is everything at BP😂
Lancaster’s cut saw is up there too. Never have seen an indexing rig.
Firenock was wondering the same thing. Randomly found the answer
It depends on the arrows. Some really don’t need it.
is this the same as nock tuning?
Pretty much, you are wanting you arrows to do the same exact thing coming off the bow with every single arrow. Its just those that do not have a spine tester, just twist their nocks till all arrows are impacting the same point.
What if you Four Fletch your arrows?
Split two vanes with the spine
Have you tried bare shaft tuning?
Yeah I have like 3 videos about it
Should I spine align if shooting 4 fletch?
Yes, it's about the flex of the arrow, not the fletching. Lining the spine up with your fletch and nock is just making sure all your arrow shafts are going onto your bow the same way with respect to their stiffest direction.
I usually shoot Bohning heats in the 4 fletch config. (Love) I can’t afford 200$ shafts but I do spine align all brands of 340’s and I get better arrow flight for sure. Especially out around 60 it helped me a lot. One more thing I’d like to add which surprised me and made life easier is, I have to float (it’s simple and more realistic than pressure bending as some do.(dif than using this machine) long ass story but Carbon Express arrows in any straightness value I’ve seen float, all float to the spine down and on the “cock fletch” with every label in the same place. My other brands definitely do not align together. John Dudley has a pretty good one on nock indexing as well. There’s so much to archery, I love it.🏹🍎
where can i get the spine test thingy?
Fire Nock makes that one
They’re ridiculously expensive. Just shoot your bare shafts through paper and rotate the nock in 1/4 turn increments. Four shots maxed to find your bullet hole and your spine aligned. You’re gonna be shooting anyways right?
Just to let you guys know, you don't have to do this with aluminum arrows as these are constructed with the same material on each end so you always have that consistency.
It is critical to spine the arrow after you CUT and install the insert first. The only type of arrow that you may be not do is an aluminum arrow since it has a linear spine; all carbon arrow has spiral spine. Cutting the arrow or gluing in the insert will change the location of the spine. Being the designer and patent holder of the machine that I made (which you show on the show) make all the difference. Reindex your arrow and you will see.
Interesting...
I actually used this exact spine tester, used a flashlight to find the interior backbone , and compared those results with the factory "spine alignment" on Victory Arrows and they are ALL different.. That's what I found with my testing..
And if you shoot cock vane left and not up and want the spine to be at 12 o'clock?
The water float test isn't useful for spine indexing because it reacts more to arrow straightness than to arrow spine. To illustrate: Imagine if you cut a section out of a hula hoop, maybe 1/5 of the hoop, plug both ends of the segment and toss it in the bathtub. The hoop segment will always roll over on one side or the other so that it looks like a parentheses when viewed from above, completely regardless of stiffness.
With carbon arrows, your technique seems very effective at identifying what I call the weak spine plane. Now comes an enlightening experiment. Starting with the point that you marked with the silver sharpie, measure and record arrow spine, roll the arrow 45 degrees to record the spine again, and then repeat six more times you will see that on the opposite side of the arrow you will find a second weak spine point, almost exactly 180 degrees around from the sharpie mark. Further, you will likely observe that strong spine plane points exist that are 90 degrees and 270 degrees around the arrow from the sharpie mark. Looking at your list of measurements, the weak spine points are those that have largest deflection values. Strong spine measurements are those that have the smallest deflection values.
You are correct that good arrow behavior matching happens if the cock feather is always applied on the sharpie mark. But it gets more interesting.
If you sharpie-mark every arrow from a 1 dozen package as you described, and then measure the spine value at the sharpie mark, you will find that most of the arrows have consistent weak spine values, except for one or two mavericks. Sometimes the mavericks are significantly different in spine measurements. If you really care about performance consistency, you might want to leave the mavericks at home when you go to Lancaster or Vegas.
Yeah I dont recommend using it, I was just referencing it because I wanted.to convey how much easier and more accurate it is to use the machine
So a RAM Spine Tester would work better and once you find the stiffest part of your shaft you should have the stiffest spine to the right 3:00 since 99% of arrow flight out of a bow the arrow flexes fishtail and not to many porpoise. People that put the stiffest to the 12:00 doesn’t help anything. Or better yet have the 3:00 position on all arrows to have the exact spine with minimal deviation.
Hmm. All the testing they did at the Easton center concluded that compound bows with a release put a vertical flex into the arrow. The horizontal flex took effect with finger shooters out of a recurve bow, it's called the "Archers Paradox". When we tested spine position with our hooter shooter, the only way were able to achieve the arrow hitting the same hole repeatedly was by having the stiff spine facing directly upwards.
I know this is an old video but is it a fact that the weakest axis of the spine is 180 degrees from the stiffest axis? In my mind, when the arrow is released, it is going to flex in the direction of the weakest axis which according to some isn’t always directly opposite of the stiffest axis. Someone set me straight please.
No it’s not always directly opposite. Recently started putting the stiff spine down instead of up and have had more consistency shaft to shaft
Thanks! I just bought a dozen pro comp shafts and I don’t think I’ll be able to find the stiff side since they are aluminum sleeved, would you recommend going straight to nock tuning?
@@RMC2021 you can, or just number your arrows and if one arrow keeps missing in the same place just rotate the nock until it hits with the others
Its only a starting point. Still gotta nock tune
Why the hell don't they mark them from the factory.
No time for that
Correction floating in a tub is just as effective , you don't need the machine .
So much harder though haha
naah
Ram arrow spine tester is much better..........................
Where did you get that shirt . Odd question right?
For centershot this doesnt matter that much
Not sure what you mean, center shot has nothing to do with the spine of an arrow..?
@@InsideOutPrecision Im no expert but ive sen enough info that says off center shots need correct arrow for arrows to flie stright. U know archers paradox... when arrow kinda goes around bow. For centershot u just want to optimise bend of an arrow so it isnt to much or little.
@@MiniFun92 oh do you mean for a recurve or a flipper rest? In that case yes you generally need a weaker spined arrow so it can flex around the riser as opposed to kicking off of it.
@@MiniFun92 i guess I'm just a little confused, any bow needs the correct spine to shoot straight, whether your rest is in center shot or not...
I let my bow tell me how my Arrow is impacting. Then I just turn my nock to adjust its impact. Easy as that.
What do you look for on arrow impacts that tell you to index your nock?
@@Mackerel1776 This is if the bow is tuned and I get a batch of new arrows I fletch them up some hit spot on some just hit just to the left right up or down. Then I turn the nock and it changes where it impacts. I keep turning the nock until it hits with the other arrows. This always works for me I was sceptical when first doing this over 10 years ago. Now it's just part of my tuning process.
@@huntinglife5202 I’ve heard of doing this, didn’t know if you could tell by location of the hit or looking for the nock to “wag” in a particular direction at impact. Thanks 👍🏻