Best explanation of how to adjust cam lean & vertical nock travel I’ve ever watched. (While at the same time explaining how the adjustments change/affect the tear.) ~ Thank you!
Some will fail because they don’t provide a high level of service and assistance. Pro Shops that go the extra mile have or will develop a loyal customer base who will patronize their store for most items instead of purchasing online.
My fave archery stores do 2 hours appointments for people who need help to tune their bows. I thought this was normal. None of our UK archery stores are 'lazy' i this regard. I made made the effort and learnt how to setup and tune compound and recurve bows. To be fair its a simple process but can be time consuming. There are too many lazy archers who would sooner throw cash at a 'pro' shop than learn how to setup and tune their stuff themselves.
@@InsideOutPrecision to be fair. Once you know the terminology. Spine, centre shot etc. with a little thought . Setup is all common sense. Learning to shoot with proper form is the hard part. Looking on youtube at some of the 'experts'. Form and safe draw is optional.
What about the Bear Cruzer G2? Can you do a cam tuning/setup for out of the box? I just got this bow and my local shop adjusted the cams and timed them but when I bare shaft paper tune it kicks up and to the right. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
If you all have not seen a documentary called..... It's worse than you think... By revelations of Jesus Christ ministries.... I suggest you do.... All praise and glory to the most high Jesus Christ
DUDE! Thank you for this! There are some great shops out there but the amount of DM's I get about tuning issues resulting from Pro Shop ignorance or laziness is incredible
Just had a bow shop tie a dloop on along w some more work I had done there. Come home to find my dloop was off . The guy tied my bottom knot where the top knot should be leaving me extremely nock high out of the bow. The people you trust for knowledge are just as clueless as you are so you might as well learn to do it yourself
Thanks Kellen for everything you put on TH-cam, this video relates to me as you know! Also huge thanks for tuning my bow so good that it allowed me to split an arrow already!
Always look forward to your vids mate. About to have my first bow setup/tuned and the fellow said to allow an hour at least so I think he’ll be thorough. I got a traverse with a hamskea so hoping for the best 👍
Shops are going to be a thing of the past at some point and it’s being driven by bad shops. If you have a good shop in your area you are very very very lucky.
It’s funny u mentioned the cam lean issue. I recently had to shim my top cam on a pse evo33. I went wayyy too far because I had a pretty bad tear. I stuck it in the drawboard(thank god) and it locked up like a virgins chastity belt. Let’s just say I won’t make that mistake again. Small adjustments make big changes on paper
As far as tuning your own bow….. eh. I think if the person that tuned it is very knowledgeable ( theres a lot that aren’t)…. Then what you might need tuned is ….. you , not the bow. In most cases …. Hands are similar enough. Almost every “ new “ shooter is going to be torquing the bow. The bow tech should show them how to grip and let them paper tune themselves so they can get feedback on what they are doing. Otherwise, they are going to get home and have to blindly teach themselves which will not work at all or at the very best take way longer to get it
Absolutely. A good shop will work with the person first, then tune the bow to them. Any place that takes your bow, goes into a back room and comes out saying it’s “tuned” is robbing the customer of the best possible outcome.
But on the same note, I can give my bow to a friend who has impeccable form, and the bow won’t shoot the same hole through paper as it did for me. I think people forget how small of a force it takes on the shooters part to influence the flight of the arrow. Just a half of a pound of grip pressure on the left/right edge of the grip can cause an arrow to kick. That being said, I whole heartedly believe that people’s money and time is better invested in lessons and practice than equipment. You can only buy accuracy to a certain point
Ok good video, I've heard some of the same things and your right, not true. I'm wondering about a different cam system, it's the Evolve cam by PSE, I have a 2019 PSE Stealth Carbon Air. On a system like this is some cam lean acceptable? It doesn't look that bad but I just got it and I am still waiting to set it up. Hopefully I won't have to wait that long until my pro shop opens back up. Thanks, Danny
I bought a vxr last April and have taken it to three different bow techs. You would be surprised on how little these guys know. Now that I'm a bit more educated on tuning bows I have realized the importance of learning how to work on your own bow. Invest in a press and tools. Thanks for the video. Definitely learned a bit more
😂😂 man my bow shops around here either discriminate against my brown ass or just don't wanna put in the wrk bc we aren't buddy buddies. I Def got the quick and out the door setup 😂😂🤣☠️, the more you know smdh
Drove 4 hrs to get an alphamax way back. Shop was suppose to set the DL and time the cams before I got there. Once I got there and asked about it they said yeah it's good to go. Got home and noticed they had the bottom module set at a different DL then the top. I do all my bow work now and don't even bother wasting time at shops anymore.
Hey Kellen, Just getting back into bow hunting after about 25 years, so it's like starting from scratch!! Really enjoy all your videos, great info. Keep up the excellent work!! Much appreciated!!
Does anyone know where I can get mods for the Hoyt vulcan I just bought that same exact bow from my buddy it was his kids so the draw length is like 25 and I need 29 my shop says the cams aren't designed for adjusting the draw length in 1/2 inch increments which is what I thought it said they could do online. Help please
Hello from Australia! I hope you can help me. I am shooting a Bear divergent at 60 pounds. I have a hamskea trinity hunter pro rest. I shoot Easton axis 5mm 300 spine arrows at 30 inches with 100 grain field tips. At centre shot the bow has a whooping tail left tear. To correct I have to move my rest so far right I cannot get the sight on target at twenty yards and still see the sight housing and ai must be close to touching the cables with the fletches. Where do I start with this problem? The yoke? Any advice greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Craig
Hoyt bows are notorious for low tears, and the only way to fix this is to put the bottom drawstop 1/8" away from the cable when the top is touching, and then pull until the bottom touches the cable. There is no difference between tiller tuning and just moving the nock point up with the drawstops touching at the same time - you're still gonna get a nock high setup. This low tear that Hoyt is notorious for is the reason QAD made the TL1 launcher, so that the vanes aren't hitting the launcher at the shot with both cams timed. This tuning issue with Hoyt occurs in all grades of their bow line, from the least expensive right up to their flagship.
I disagree. Bows are not designed to have cam lean. They have cam lean because of the design. Cams must lean in the direction of the power stroke of the cam. That's where the energy is developed. As the draw cycle develops, the increasing energy produces more cam lean. It has to, its simple physics.
This is the reason I stick with my preferred pro shop. I take bow in for a paper tune I shoot the bow through paper and they make adjustable until it bullet holes with me shooting
This is what I am scared of I am a new archer and I feel like my pro shop just takes advantage since I am new but sadly where I live it’s the only shop others are like an hour away
Great video- Thanks for clarifying those myths. I was shocked when you pulled out the Vulcan.. I have one as well. I bought it new in 2007, it is still a great shooter. It will be going on my Az Bull elk hunt in September !
The first thing you said about the tophats is exactly what I went through with my triax. Literally the reason I sold it, because without a press, it can only be in tune so much and its like only putting a bandaid on the problem.
Ok since my last question I recentered the rest and put two turns in the left yoke and took two out of the right. Pretty much dead on bullet hoke at twenty yards with both field point and broad head. Sorted. Thank you for all the info...I am only a beginner and it is a great help given the lack of pro shops here in Australia to help me.
yea pats archery in jasper alabama is not a good bow shop. they want to do the minimum and get you out of there. and if you ask any question they take it as you questioning their knowledge
When I got my bow the tech had me shooting it then making adjustments he’d shoot it then I’d shoot again. I walked out feeling really good about the set up, it feels really solid to me
Yeah I got rid of a bow because of my pro shop would say “that’s the way it is for tuning issues “. It leaned over a half inch. I have 8 bows and no problems with them. They would not touch the bear bow. I felt they were to good to deal with a cheaper bow or lazy. I spend a lot of money there too. I need to get a new string for my hoyt trkon and second guessing wether to go with them or find a new shop. Maybe even ship it out. What do you think 🤔?
I think the reason why most shops just take the bow into the back, "tune" it and give it back is that they know that the shooter is a novice and he will get tears with any setup because his grip and form are inconsistent, but they dont want to tell it straight to the person to not sound mean and offensive.
So I’ve heard several different things when setting up a bow do you run the arrow through the center of the holes or top half of the holes? Are some bows one way and some are the other? (Arrow rest holes)
With MOST bows I always run it through the center, but some bows (like recent BowTechs) have very little clearance between the berger hole and the shelf, so you have to run it a little higher. Really doesn't matter much though on most bows though
During quarantine mode. Would be be willing to do a detailed video on how to tune a bow, time your cams, etc. I just bought three bows from a local shop. Three Mathew’s, two of them for kids and one for myself and everything you just described happed to me. I am one that really likes to do my pens stuff because I like to learn and understand it all. There are a lot of videos already on it, but you come off as being very knowledgeable and would love to see how you tune a bow.
Im on my 3rd bow now and my proshop owner said that he only paper tunes as a last resort. He said that if everything is square and in time , shouldnt need to put through paper. My Elite Kure should arrive any day now ( depending on this virus ), should i insist on paper tune? My bud just ordered a new VXR and it came in last week. Proshop owner told him the same thing when they got it geared up on the weekend. In ideal conditions ( 20 yards in doors ) he has broke 3 arrows in 50 or less shots. 2 broken in half and a robin hood that you would have to see to believe haha. Its shooting very well.
You seem to know a lot..🧐 question 🤔can i say buy a set of 60 lb cams not manufacture specific to my bow that I currently have ..that is a 45lb and have them installed making it a 60lb bow ?,,,,,,and if so where would I look to purchase these magical cams 🤩,,,also I ask because I’ve seen 27 inch draw length bows at 60lb making 300plus FPS which I think 🤔 would be good for me anyway thanks for your time
The cams have nothing to do with the draw weight, but also you can't really take cams from one manufacturer and out them on another brand and expect it to shoot well. You would have to figure out the length for new strings, new limb deflections etc...
You talked about cam lean.. is that true for a VXR ?.. my ATA is 28”.. one side is 28 the other is 28-1/8. What’s your thoughts?? I’ve shot around 100 arrows through the bow since I’ve had it. I purchased it brand new.
Another huge thing people don’t know about paper tuning. I used to compete indoor 300’s. I could paper tune with one release, grab another back tension of a different brand, but same design, and it would tear. I go back to the original release and bullet hole again. So every time you change release brands, you need to paper tune again. They do not all release that string the same.
Ran across your vid. Like the things you said. Thats why i dont let no one work on my cars or bow. Its like tou say dont know what they did to it and say its all fix and when you get home and find other issues that they screw up They have the cash in there hand and you cant get it back
Bought my vxr at a well known shop on Long Island and paid 80 bucks to have it paper tuned. I was doing the shooting but the dude who sold me the bow didn't touch the top hats AT ALL. He just twisted the strings and did adjustments to the rest. The bow shot better before this tune. I can see the arrows flying left with consistency. They were much straighter before tuning. Also was hoping they'd put nock points on there, but nope. Was I ripped off/should I go somewhere else?? Any info for this archery newb is appreciated. Please and thank you.
@@InsideOutPrecision seems ive been had......thanks for the quick response and for your honesty. Extremely appreciative of all the awesome content you create. I won't be spending anymore of my money at that shop
Folks, this IS ACCURATE AND TRUTHFUL information. And in my experience of 25+ years of compound bow shooting I've honestly had very little issues getting a bow to make bullet holes in paper. I've had Mathews, Bowtech, Elite and PSE. The easiest by far to tune to me has been the PSE. I can not remember ever moving shims on any PSE. BOWS with the yoke system have been the easiest to tune. And sometimes there was a very little lean in the cams. Honestly. I don't understand why so many have trouble getting a bullet hole set up easily. Of coarse the bullet hole thing is just THE STARTING POINT only to get great arrow flight and grouping down range. Best thing I ever did was buy a Last Chance bow vice. People, do whatever you can to get a good bow vice.
Great discussion....but could you clarify something?....Tiller Tuning effect on cams.......if you put a hoyt's cams both "in time", such that both draw stops hit cables at the same time....If you "tiller tune" after that (let's say there is a nock high/low condition and you don't want to/can't adjust nock pt or rest anymore due to clearance issues), and with slight tiller tune (adjusting limb bolts) you correct the nock travel condition....if you then place the perfectly tuned bow back on draw board, won't the cams be hitting the stops at a different time now? Thanks!
I just had my pse ferrocity re-strung because the old string (about 1.5 years old) messed up. The cable on the top cam had some serving binding up in a ball and eventually jumped off... fast forward to my new string cutting the serving and doing the same thing 2 weeks after being done. Looked to me like too far of a cam lean any thoughts? He couldn't get a right tear out of it either.
Awesome t shirt, what brand is it? I ‘m from Montreal Canada and can’t find a shop to tune my bow. Getting my self set up to do it myself. Thanks for the great tips and info. You would not believe the struggles I’ve gone threw. We are talking about some pretty big mistakes. Bolts combing loose after 1hr of shooting.
Thanks so much for this video. Im a first time owner of a relatively cheap Kinetic Mirage compound bow. I had a cam lean for ages (bottom cam, lean right) but it shot true and I could nick tiny points on my targets no problem really. Then one day (yesterday) I decided to fix the cam lean so I watched another random video of how to fix cam leaning right. Did that succesfully, but! no other video mentioned the fact that if I only add twist to the one side to fix the cam lean, it will throw off my timing! And it did! Now my top stringstop had almost 1cm of gap (didnt touch the cable while the bottom did). So here I was again trying to watch videoes on how to fix cam timing now. Then I found your video and you explained it SO well!! Even the tiny little detail of taking out a twist in the opposite cable when adding twist in the first cable when fixing cam lean (Noone else bothers to tell this, wtf kinda important now I know that I understand what will happen lol!). So by simply retracing my steps/twists, I evened out the "twistings" by resetting the twists I put in the first cable and then do it the way you explained, add one, take out one. And now the cam is completely straight, both stringstop is touching the cable at same time, and my shots is on point again :D Im SO happy and grateful for you fixing my bow and also teaching me those basics. Thanks again for what you do man. Deeply appreciated.
It seems like the shop I go to is always cutting corners when they can. I wonder sometimes if there is a certain type of customer they like and other types they don’t want to help. For example, if a target guy capable of shooting 300’s walks in they’ll get preferential treatment over a guy who is asking about his “starter” bow.
So quick question. The shop I purchased my bow from didn't check anything other than squaring the rest and nock point. They didn't even want to shoot it trough paper until I requested and insisted on it. When I shot the paper, it shot a bullet hole with a fletched arrow. Since I know they didn't check timing after swapping the mods out or top hat alignment, should I be worried about my bow poasibly not being perfectly tuned?
Thanks dude! Always love the videos, especially this one. After dealing with "lazy" bow shops for years I started doing my own bow work and your videos have truly helped. This is the first year I have ever shot a bullet hole through paper. My old shops said bullet holes were impossible until you have had years of proper form practice. Well it is completely impossible without a properly tuned bow, something a lot of shops won't spend time with you on. Thanks again.
Joe Mattox Safe Steps Training I did the same thing......I bought a press draw board from last chance a bow holder for omp and a ton of tools but,it paid off within three years.....and I love it.....screw all these bow shops....especially here in NYC
I have an opinion of 2 local bow shops. #1 says "its tuned from the factory" and only tunes by center shot. #2 is an excellent Bowsmith, but seems to want to select who gets to buy the brand that he sells. Rock vs. Hard place.
I have been asked repeatedly to start making videos, and I keep referring them to the UTube. There is a lot of truth here in your video...thanks. A simple fact is, a bow is tuned or it isn't tuned. Period. There are a lot of truly professional tuners ( and too many pretenders) in the industry across the country that can effectively tune different brands and models with a high level efficiency. However, there is a second level of tuning that is showing a customer HOW to hold the tuned bow so that they aren't negatively affecting it. My workspace is in plain view of my customers, and I will often ask them to come with me to the press so that I can help them understand what I am doing (generally) and why, and how it will be affected by outside influences. Advice for customers, ask. If you want to know what was done, ask. If you trust your dealer or tech, and don't feel you need to ask that is fine. Then make sure you are good with the work that has been performed by the tech/shop BEFORE you leave the shop. I can't tell you how many times I get someone who comes to me and complains that they had their bow worked on by so-n-so, only to NOT verify the work was done before taking their bow home. Shoot the bow. make sure you are happy with the work that is done. If you bought dinner and waited until the next day to call the restaurant that you didn't like dinner, it's too late.
Pro hoyt shooters would disagree with you on the svx top cam not being ahead. Go creep tune and you'll pretty much always find on hybrid cams the top will be slightly ahead. People wear gonna say oh you don't need to creep tune but forgiveness in backwall pressure that may vary when shooting uphill downhill fresh or fatigued it makes a difference
Where is your shop located? Might be worth a trek when upgrading (once we are good to travel again) to a shop that sounds as professional as yours. Nothing but big box stores anywhere close to me that staff far too many uneducated and unmotivated individuals for me to have any faith (based on consistent experiance) in any purchase or setup help. And thanks so much for your videos with absolute top notch tips and pitfall warnings for us early to intermediate archers.
I agree with everything except the cam timing on Hoyt bows. It isn’t generally done for tears but for forgiveness esp when shooting a hinge to tighten the grouping with varying pressure. You actually want the top cam hitting slightly early and by slightly I mean just enough to see light through the bottom cam. Also sometimes a half twist will only get you close to perfect, in that case gap the bottom stop. The other issue is that tiller tuning or limb bolt tuning on a past parallel bow does little to nothing, timing is the better option. The main effect it will have on paper will be that it will tear cleaner/ more consistent at different back pressure. Similar to torque tuning a rest for left rights for forgiveness. I saw these results not only on the line but also through my hooter shooter inducing different levels of back pressure.
My son had our local Mathews pro shop replace to custom Zebra Trophy strings due to 2 seasons with his Triax no he is closed due the NJ state shut down and noticed it's out of spec at 28 3/16s ata and bottom cam is out top cam timing window the back of the controll cable is center in the window like my Vertix and bottom cam window the hole cable runs center and brace is almost 6 1/16 my question is I'm going to buy a Lastchance press is to my understanding mechanics of modern archery equipment is adding a few twist to the string shorten ata first then it would of course change rotation of the cams to adjust timing and the one I hear the most is a 1/2 twist in bottom control cable is to much and by pulling the upper axle to add a twist in the upper yoke micro adjust the bottom cam timing where that 1/2 twist on cable to much he really screwed up his bow plus a right tare after he got both thick side tophats he installed its telling me to move top cam to the right and flip where it was set from the factory his original left tare i think was from stretch that threw him off i told my son shouldn't have had him move hats tell everything is set.
Like any retailer, there are some archery shops and bow techs who are either too busy or don’t care about solving a customer’s unique bow problem(s). As a consumer, you have to take responsibility to know enough about your equipment to operate it effectively.
When I first started shooting bow, My "Pro Shop" set me up with at 28" DL. The kid that was supposed to be some kind of Hoyt tech. (and rather smug) insisted that was my draw length... I knew and could feel something wasn't right so I started watching videos and learning on my own. Come to find out my DL was 30.5", and my bow accommodated that just fine, but this person either didn't know, or was just unwilling to help out.. Thanks for making all these super helpful videos, it's a blessing to have some one that knows and is willing to share.
thanks for the video, incredibly well explained. But is a 1 cam better than 2 cams, and to adjust? I live in Belgium and we do not have the option to shoot anywhere in a field or meadow. Also that ATA in the States, that is something that we do not know or have. We go to a store and buy a bow. Everything else is up to us., Adjustment, pounds, draw length. So everything. A pro shop is not here either. So we have to buy everything and hope that we can shoot well with it. We have to order a bowpress like that of last chance archery in America. And that is expensive, very expensive with the transport to Belgium.
Sounds alot like my bow shop, they always want to tune your bow themselves and then hand you a small paper with the supposed bullet hole. They get all weird about it when you tell them I'd like to shoot it. Problem is there ain't never anyone there that can work on bows except for a couple hours a few days a week. Can't stand that we don't have a decent bow shop close unless I want to travel.
Decent video but I don't agree with the cam timing. Hybrid bows can benefit from having the top draw stop hit first. This preloads the control cable before the bottom stop hits the much firmer buss cable and the back wall will feel firmer. It also helps alleviate some vertical nock travel and helps the bow hold up on target better because the top cam does not have the "slop". If you creep tune many hybrid bows, you'll find the best creep tune with the top cam hitting first too. Also, making the stops hit at the same time is not the cam timing, that's cam sync. Timing is the starting rotational position. Timing is at brace, sync is how they rotate in relation to one another.
This may be more of a question than it is a statement. Arrow spine and varied point weight can cause good or bad paper tuning just as much as a badly tuned bow. Would it be just as appropriate to have an arrow tuned to a perfectly squared, in time, properly set bow and arrow rest? Basically set the bow to the desired draw weight and length, set it up "in spec" with the arrow rest in center shot with the nock point and then find the arrow spine, arrow length, and corresponding point weight to match the bow's settings? Again, just throwing this out there as a question/ possible solution to the same tuning and setup issues. Thanks for the video. Great info. 👍
Your vids are money bro! I love my bow shop but I was shooting after a “tune” and this video is giving me dejavu. Expensive tune for zero change in results. I’m working on learning how to do it myself but for now I like to let the pros do it so I don’t Jack it up. But I always appreciate your insight.
As a guitarist and an archer, I can tell you to never trust your shop's setup in the first place. I asked my shop to intonate my guitar, and when I got it it was slightly off, because fret pressure changes, same goes with bows and grip pressure. No one else can set up your bow for you, they can only help get you on your way.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and input. Im going crazy. I have a Halon pro comp and found that the new string is extending to the point of impacting the cable guide. Small pieces of the kisser was being left behind on the guide so I removed the kisser incase the weight of it is a factor cause I have no idea. Never had this issue with a bow and worried the string will be compromised, this is my only outlet to decompress from life. Please help when and if u can. Love ur vids and much respect.
My shop takes in back tunes then has me shoot they adjusts and my bow is spot on I never understood this tuning a bow for a shooter thats shooting wrong isn't good a perfectly tuned bow shot right will be good 👍
What does it help with when I tune a bow?should I get my bow tuned I don’t know if my bow has bin tuned. Can a bow get tuned more than once? I only shoot target with my bow. Should I take it to a archery shop to get my bow tuned
I used to think cam lean was the issue with all my shooting and tuning woes. Then I learned how to properly shoot a bow. Cam lean isn't the big deal that I thought it was. How about a video on creep tuning
I wish I lived close to your shop I always am tuning my shooting but don’t have a bow press to try things out ,I don’t have a good shop within a hour drive
Good factual video. When I tune a bow for someone I tell them to check it to make sure it's tuned for their style of shooting. Just because it's tuned for me doesn't mean it's tuned for them.
Best explanation of how to adjust cam lean & vertical nock travel I’ve ever watched. (While at the same time explaining how the adjustments change/affect the tear.) ~ Thank you!
Number 2 is spot on.
Team Hoyt @vintage!! My backup is a turbohawk and it still shoots very well.
I just had the issue debating whether or not to allow cam lean to keep the bullet hole. Thanks for the info
Speak it bruh! These "Pro Shops" are why I bought all the stuff needed for the "Pro Shop" I now have in my garage and now I'M THE PRO! Whats up!?
Some will fail because they don’t provide a high level of service and assistance. Pro Shops that go the extra mile have or will develop a loyal customer base who will patronize their store for most items instead of purchasing online.
Most of this sounds pretty familiar. We have a shop near us that does everything that you just stated.
Great video mate thanks for the info great to know 👍🏹🏹
My fave archery stores do 2 hours appointments for people who need help to tune their bows. I thought this was normal.
None of our UK archery stores are 'lazy' i this regard.
I made made the effort and learnt how to setup and tune compound and recurve bows. To be fair its a simple process but can be time consuming.
There are too many lazy archers who would sooner throw cash at a 'pro' shop than learn how to setup and tune their stuff themselves.
Yeah it can be tough if you dont have the right resources to help you get started. Lots of bad info out there.
@@InsideOutPrecision to be fair. Once you know the terminology. Spine, centre shot etc. with a little thought . Setup is all common sense.
Learning to shoot with proper form is the hard part. Looking on youtube at some of the 'experts'. Form and safe draw is optional.
nice T shirt! :)
wisdom
What about the Bear Cruzer G2? Can you do a cam tuning/setup for out of the box? I just got this bow and my local shop adjusted the cams and timed them but when I bare shaft paper tune it kicks up and to the right. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
If you all have not seen a documentary called..... It's worse than you think... By revelations of Jesus Christ ministries.... I suggest you do.... All praise and glory to the most high Jesus Christ
DUDE! Thank you for this! There are some great shops out there but the amount of DM's I get about tuning issues resulting from Pro Shop ignorance or laziness is incredible
Pats in Jasper Al is garbage
Just had a bow shop tie a dloop on along w some more work I had done there. Come home to find my dloop was off . The guy tied my bottom knot where the top knot should be leaving me extremely nock high out of the bow. The people you trust for knowledge are just as clueless as you are so you might as well learn to do it yourself
Always enjoy the in depth video's man! Wish every town had a Bow Rack!
Another thing stay FAR away from Archerytalk if u want to learn how to set up your bow
Everyone is an expert on AT.
Thanks Kellen for everything you put on TH-cam, this video relates to me as you know! Also huge thanks for tuning my bow so good that it allowed me to split an arrow already!
My pleasure man. Glad its slingin' laser's for you!
@@InsideOutPrecision couldn't ask for any better! If we go on full lock down you might have to do some more TH-cam live for Q&A again!
There's few things worse than a lazy archery shop! They really hurt new shooters that are trusting them to steer them in the right direction.
Always look forward to your vids mate. About to have my first bow setup/tuned and the fellow said to allow an hour at least so I think he’ll be thorough. I got a traverse with a hamskea so hoping for the best 👍
Nice! Going to be a killer set up.
Shops are going to be a thing of the past at some point and it’s being driven by bad shops. If you have a good shop in your area you are very very very lucky.
Facts
It’s funny u mentioned the cam lean issue. I recently had to shim my top cam on a pse evo33. I went wayyy too far because I had a pretty bad tear. I stuck it in the drawboard(thank god) and it locked up like a virgins chastity belt. Let’s just say I won’t make that mistake again. Small adjustments make big changes on paper
Dude, your the Sh#t, thank you for Expert knowledge. Be safe, an stay diligent during these times of population control.😵
Dude, love the videos.... Making corona lock down bearable.
Most, shops, just call themselves a pro shop..
Back in the day, we had to go to the company, to get training, before we could sale their bows..
As far as tuning your own bow….. eh. I think if the person that tuned it is very knowledgeable ( theres a lot that aren’t)…. Then what you might need tuned is ….. you , not the bow. In most cases …. Hands are similar enough. Almost every “ new “ shooter is going to be torquing the bow. The bow tech should show them how to grip and let them paper tune themselves so they can get feedback on what they are doing. Otherwise, they are going to get home and have to blindly teach themselves which will not work at all or at the very best take way longer to get it
Absolutely. A good shop will work with the person first, then tune the bow to them. Any place that takes your bow, goes into a back room and comes out saying it’s “tuned” is robbing the customer of the best possible outcome.
But on the same note, I can give my bow to a friend who has impeccable form, and the bow won’t shoot the same hole through paper as it did for me. I think people forget how small of a force it takes on the shooters part to influence the flight of the arrow. Just a half of a pound of grip pressure on the left/right edge of the grip can cause an arrow to kick. That being said, I whole heartedly believe that people’s money and time is better invested in lessons and practice than equipment. You can only buy accuracy to a certain point
Ok good video, I've heard some of the same things and your right, not true. I'm wondering about a different cam system, it's the Evolve cam by PSE, I have a 2019 PSE Stealth Carbon Air. On a system like this is some cam lean acceptable? It doesn't look that bad but I just got it and I am still waiting to set it up. Hopefully I won't have to wait that long until my pro shop opens back up. Thanks, Danny
I bought a vxr last April and have taken it to three different bow techs. You would be surprised on how little these guys know. Now that I'm a bit more educated on tuning bows I have realized the importance of learning how to work on your own bow. Invest in a press and tools. Thanks for the video. Definitely learned a bit more
😂😂 man my bow shops around here either discriminate against my brown ass or just don't wanna put in the wrk bc we aren't buddy buddies. I Def got the quick and out the door setup 😂😂🤣☠️, the more you know smdh
Ik I’m late on the comments but your absolutely right. I’ve been to multiple bow shops and I always walk out feeling iffy.
Drove 4 hrs to get an alphamax way back. Shop was suppose to set the DL and time the cams before I got there. Once I got there and asked about it they said yeah it's good to go. Got home and noticed they had the bottom module set at a different DL then the top. I do all my bow work now and don't even bother wasting time at shops anymore.
Hey Kellen, Just getting back into bow hunting after about 25 years, so it's like starting from scratch!! Really enjoy all your videos, great info. Keep up the excellent work!! Much appreciated!!
Me too🤣🙉. Its a new world huh. Sights! 🤓👌
Does anyone know where I can get mods for the Hoyt vulcan I just bought that same exact bow from my buddy it was his kids so the draw length is like 25 and I need 29 my shop says the cams aren't designed for adjusting the draw length in 1/2 inch increments which is what I thought it said they could do online. Help please
Hello from Australia!
I hope you can help me.
I am shooting a Bear divergent at 60 pounds. I have a hamskea trinity hunter pro rest. I shoot Easton axis 5mm 300 spine arrows at 30 inches with 100 grain field tips.
At centre shot the bow has a whooping tail left tear. To correct I have to move my rest so far right I cannot get the sight on target at twenty yards and still see the sight housing and ai must be close to touching the cables with the fletches.
Where do I start with this problem? The yoke?
Any advice greatly appreciated.
Kind regards,
Craig
Hoyt bows are notorious for low tears, and the only way to fix this is to put the bottom drawstop 1/8" away from the cable when the top is touching, and then pull until the bottom touches the cable. There is no difference between tiller tuning and just moving the nock point up with the drawstops touching at the same time - you're still gonna get a nock high setup. This low tear that Hoyt is notorious for is the reason QAD made the TL1 launcher, so that the vanes aren't hitting the launcher at the shot with both cams timed. This tuning issue with Hoyt occurs in all grades of their bow line, from the least expensive right up to their flagship.
I disagree. Bows are not designed to have cam lean. They have cam lean because of the design. Cams must lean in the direction of the power stroke of the cam. That's where the energy is developed. As the draw cycle develops, the increasing energy produces more cam lean. It has to, its simple physics.
I'm in Aus, there is stuff all "pro" shops, the place I just got my dragon X8 from set the arrow rest up upside down..... Enough said
This is the reason I stick with my preferred pro shop. I take bow in for a paper tune I shoot the bow through paper and they make adjustable until it bullet holes with me shooting
This is what I am scared of I am a new archer and I feel like my pro shop just takes advantage since I am new but sadly where I live it’s the only shop others are like an hour away
Great video- Thanks for clarifying those myths. I was shocked when you pulled out the Vulcan.. I have one as well. I bought it new in 2007, it is still a great shooter. It will be going on my Az Bull elk hunt in September !
The first thing you said about the tophats is exactly what I went through with my triax. Literally the reason I sold it, because without a press, it can only be in tune so much and its like only putting a bandaid on the problem.
Elite has built their brand on cam lean and they're one of the best bow manufacturers in the world. So yeah I'd say you're right on about cam lean
Ok since my last question I recentered the rest and put two turns in the left yoke and took two out of the right. Pretty much dead on bullet hoke at twenty yards with both field point and broad head. Sorted. Thank you for all the info...I am only a beginner and it is a great help given the lack of pro shops here in Australia to help me.
yea pats archery in jasper alabama is not a good bow shop. they want to do the minimum and get you out of there. and if you ask any question they take it as you questioning their knowledge
When I got my bow the tech had me shooting it then making adjustments he’d shoot it then I’d shoot again. I walked out feeling really good about the set up, it feels really solid to me
Listen man how far do u stand away when paper tuning and what fucking angle no one on earth covers this so be the first please
I shot bowtech , and bow tuning is really easy for me any time !
Thanks for the information about cam lean. The rest of it I've figured out over the years in spite of pro shops.
I killed my first deer with a hoyt Vulcan. I just finally sold it to seasons ago. I loved that bow but I shoot my faktor so much better.
Happen to me , that's why I bought my own bow press easy green
What about cam lean with no yoke like with the elite victory how do u ajust that
any tips and tricks for tuning a mathews monster 6 thx
Unfortunately, Lancaster wouldn't spend any time helping me with my Supra. Terrible customer service.
Yeah if you have to shim the cams it's quite the process. Sucks they weren't willing to take the time though
Yeah I got rid of a bow because of my pro shop would say “that’s the way it is for tuning issues “. It leaned over a half inch. I have 8 bows and no problems with them. They would not touch the bear bow. I felt they were to good to deal with a cheaper bow or lazy. I spend a lot of money there too. I need to get a new string for my hoyt trkon and second guessing wether to go with them or find a new shop. Maybe even ship it out. What do you think 🤔?
My bow shoots bullet holes bare shafts straight from factory and the rest put on and lined up with the laser thing that mounts to the string.
You are very lucky and you should definitely be keeping that bow. Matter of fact do you want to sell it hahaha.
Factory putting on rests??? Thought that was the stores that did that.
I have no cam lean problems with my longbow.
I think the reason why most shops just take the bow into the back, "tune" it and give it back is that they know that the shooter is a novice and he will get tears with any setup because his grip and form are inconsistent, but they dont want to tell it straight to the person to not sound mean and offensive.
Yeah we just work with them on all that stuff. Only takes an extra few minutes and sets them up for success in the long run
Right, I've heard people say the same thing!
So I’ve heard several different things when setting up a bow do you run the arrow through the center of the holes or top half of the holes? Are some bows one way and some are the other? (Arrow rest holes)
With MOST bows I always run it through the center, but some bows (like recent BowTechs) have very little clearance between the berger hole and the shelf, so you have to run it a little higher. Really doesn't matter much though on most bows though
For a tail high tear would I be taking a turn out of the top cam to "slow it down" and bring the tail back down a bit? To tiller tune?
I wouldn’t mess with the tiller. Either drop your loop or raise the rest
During quarantine mode. Would be be willing to do a detailed video on how to tune a bow, time your cams, etc. I just bought three bows from a local shop. Three Mathew’s, two of them for kids and one for myself and everything you just described happed to me. I am one that really likes to do my pens stuff because I like to learn and understand it all. There are a lot of videos already on it, but you come off as being very knowledgeable and would love to see how you tune a bow.
We have a paid video series coming out shortly with all that info!
Inside Out Precision does the video include how to grip a bow?
@@toddlymburner5783 aka If you grip.. You are doing it wrong :-)
If you getting tears try nock tuning. Just saying.
Hoyts have the worst cam lean. Fact
Im on my 3rd bow now and my proshop owner said that he only paper tunes as a last resort. He said that if everything is square and in time , shouldnt need to put through paper. My Elite Kure should arrive any day now ( depending on this virus ), should i insist on paper tune?
My bud just ordered a new VXR and it came in last week. Proshop owner told him the same thing when they got it geared up on the weekend. In ideal conditions ( 20 yards in doors ) he has broke 3 arrows in 50 or less shots. 2 broken in half and a robin hood that you would have to see to believe haha. Its shooting very well.
You seem to know a lot..🧐 question 🤔can i say buy a set of 60 lb cams not manufacture specific to my bow that I currently have ..that is a 45lb and have them installed making it a 60lb bow ?,,,,,,and if so where would I look to purchase these magical cams 🤩,,,also I ask because I’ve seen 27 inch draw length bows at 60lb making 300plus FPS which I think 🤔 would be good for me anyway thanks for your time
The cams have nothing to do with the draw weight, but also you can't really take cams from one manufacturer and out them on another brand and expect it to shoot well. You would have to figure out the length for new strings, new limb deflections etc...
You can probably buy heavier limbs for the model of bow you have though
You talked about cam lean.. is that true for a VXR ?.. my ATA is 28”.. one side is 28 the other is 28-1/8. What’s your thoughts?? I’ve shot around 100 arrows through the bow since I’ve had it. I purchased it brand new.
Another huge thing people don’t know about paper tuning. I used to compete indoor 300’s. I could paper tune with one release, grab another back tension of a different brand, but same design, and it would tear. I go back to the original release and bullet hole again. So every time you change release brands, you need to paper tune again. They do not all release that string the same.
Ran across your vid. Like the things you said. Thats why i dont let no one work on my cars or bow. Its like tou say dont know what they did to it and say its all fix and when you get home and find other issues that they screw up
They have the cash in there hand and you cant get it back
Bought my vxr at a well known shop on Long Island and paid 80 bucks to have it paper tuned. I was doing the shooting but the dude who sold me the bow didn't touch the top hats AT ALL. He just twisted the strings and did adjustments to the rest. The bow shot better before this tune. I can see the arrows flying left with consistency. They were much straighter before tuning. Also was hoping they'd put nock points on there, but nope. Was I ripped off/should I go somewhere else?? Any info for this archery newb is appreciated. Please and thank you.
We dont charge anything to tune the bow if you buy it from us...and it will shoot as perfectly as we can make it before you leave.
@@InsideOutPrecision seems ive been had......thanks for the quick response and for your honesty. Extremely appreciative of all the awesome content you create. I won't be spending anymore of my money at that shop
Folks, this IS ACCURATE AND TRUTHFUL information. And in my experience of 25+ years of compound bow shooting I've honestly had very little issues getting a bow to make bullet holes in paper. I've had Mathews, Bowtech, Elite and PSE. The easiest by far to tune to me has been the PSE. I can not remember ever moving shims on any PSE. BOWS with the yoke system have been the easiest to tune. And sometimes there was a very little lean in the cams. Honestly. I don't understand why so many have trouble getting a bullet hole set up easily. Of coarse the bullet hole thing is just THE STARTING POINT only to get great arrow flight and grouping down range. Best thing I ever did was buy a Last Chance bow vice. People, do whatever you can to get a good bow vice.
Great discussion....but could you clarify something?....Tiller Tuning effect on cams.......if you put a hoyt's cams both "in time", such that both draw stops hit cables at the same time....If you "tiller tune" after that (let's say there is a nock high/low condition and you don't want to/can't adjust nock pt or rest anymore due to clearance issues), and with slight tiller tune (adjusting limb bolts) you correct the nock travel condition....if you then place the perfectly tuned bow back on draw board, won't the cams be hitting the stops at a different time now? Thanks!
I just had my pse ferrocity re-strung because the old string (about 1.5 years old) messed up. The cable on the top cam had some serving binding up in a ball and eventually jumped off... fast forward to my new string cutting the serving and doing the same thing 2 weeks after being done. Looked to me like too far of a cam lean any thoughts? He couldn't get a right tear out of it either.
Awesome t shirt, what brand is it? I ‘m from Montreal Canada and can’t find a shop to tune my bow. Getting my self set up to do it myself. Thanks for the great tips and info. You would not believe the struggles I’ve gone threw. We are talking about some pretty big mistakes. Bolts combing loose after 1hr of shooting.
Thanks so much for this video. Im a first time owner of a relatively cheap Kinetic Mirage compound bow. I had a cam lean for ages (bottom cam, lean right) but it shot true and I could nick tiny points on my targets no problem really. Then one day (yesterday) I decided to fix the cam lean so I watched another random video of how to fix cam leaning right. Did that succesfully, but! no other video mentioned the fact that if I only add twist to the one side to fix the cam lean, it will throw off my timing! And it did! Now my top stringstop had almost 1cm of gap (didnt touch the cable while the bottom did). So here I was again trying to watch videoes on how to fix cam timing now. Then I found your video and you explained it SO well!! Even the tiny little detail of taking out a twist in the opposite cable when adding twist in the first cable when fixing cam lean (Noone else bothers to tell this, wtf kinda important now I know that I understand what will happen lol!). So by simply retracing my steps/twists, I evened out the "twistings" by resetting the twists I put in the first cable and then do it the way you explained, add one, take out one. And now the cam is completely straight, both stringstop is touching the cable at same time, and my shots is on point again :D Im SO happy and grateful for you fixing my bow and also teaching me those basics. Thanks again for what you do man. Deeply appreciated.
It seems like the shop I go to is always cutting corners when they can. I wonder sometimes if there is a certain type of customer they like and other types they don’t want to help. For example, if a target guy capable of shooting 300’s walks in they’ll get preferential treatment over a guy who is asking about his “starter” bow.
So quick question. The shop I purchased my bow from didn't check anything other than squaring the rest and nock point. They didn't even want to shoot it trough paper until I requested and insisted on it. When I shot the paper, it shot a bullet hole with a fletched arrow. Since I know they didn't check timing after swapping the mods out or top hat alignment, should I be worried about my bow poasibly not being perfectly tuned?
Thanks dude! Always love the videos, especially this one. After dealing with "lazy" bow shops for years I started doing my own bow work and your videos have truly helped. This is the first year I have ever shot a bullet hole through paper. My old shops said bullet holes were impossible until you have had years of proper form practice. Well it is completely impossible without a properly tuned bow, something a lot of shops won't spend time with you on. Thanks again.
Joe Mattox Safe Steps Training I did the same thing......I bought a press draw board from last chance a bow holder for omp and a ton of tools but,it paid off within three years.....and I love it.....screw all these bow shops....especially here in NYC
I have an opinion of 2 local bow shops.
#1 says "its tuned from the factory" and only tunes by center shot.
#2 is an excellent Bowsmith, but seems to want to select who gets to buy the brand that he sells.
Rock vs. Hard place.
I have been asked repeatedly to start making videos, and I keep referring them to the UTube. There is a lot of truth here in your video...thanks. A simple fact is, a bow is tuned or it isn't tuned. Period. There are a lot of truly professional tuners ( and too many pretenders) in the industry across the country that can effectively tune different brands and models with a high level efficiency. However, there is a second level of tuning that is showing a customer HOW to hold the tuned bow so that they aren't negatively affecting it. My workspace is in plain view of my customers, and I will often ask them to come with me to the press so that I can help them understand what I am doing (generally) and why, and how it will be affected by outside influences. Advice for customers, ask. If you want to know what was done, ask. If you trust your dealer or tech, and don't feel you need to ask that is fine. Then make sure you are good with the work that has been performed by the tech/shop BEFORE you leave the shop. I can't tell you how many times I get someone who comes to me and complains that they had their bow worked on by so-n-so, only to NOT verify the work was done before taking their bow home. Shoot the bow. make sure you are happy with the work that is done. If you bought dinner and waited until the next day to call the restaurant that you didn't like dinner, it's too late.
Pro hoyt shooters would disagree with you on the svx top cam not being ahead. Go creep tune and you'll pretty much always find on hybrid cams the top will be slightly ahead. People wear gonna say oh you don't need to creep tune but forgiveness in backwall pressure that may vary when shooting uphill downhill fresh or fatigued it makes a difference
Where is your shop located? Might be worth a trek when upgrading (once we are good to travel again) to a shop that sounds as professional as yours. Nothing but big box stores anywhere close to me that staff far too many uneducated and unmotivated individuals for me to have any faith (based on consistent experiance) in any purchase or setup help. And thanks so much for your videos with absolute top notch tips and pitfall warnings for us early to intermediate archers.
I agree with everything except the cam timing on Hoyt bows. It isn’t generally done for tears but for forgiveness esp when shooting a hinge to tighten the grouping with varying pressure. You actually want the top cam hitting slightly early and by slightly I mean just enough to see light through the bottom cam.
Also sometimes a half twist will only get you close to perfect, in that case gap the bottom stop.
The other issue is that tiller tuning or limb bolt tuning on a past parallel bow does little to nothing, timing is the better option.
The main effect it will have on paper will be that it will tear cleaner/ more consistent at different back pressure. Similar to torque tuning a rest for left rights for forgiveness.
I saw these results not only on the line but also through my hooter shooter inducing different levels of back pressure.
My son had our local Mathews pro shop replace to custom Zebra Trophy strings due to 2 seasons with his Triax no he is closed due the NJ state shut down and noticed it's out of spec at 28 3/16s ata and bottom cam is out top cam timing window the back of the controll cable is center in the window like my Vertix and bottom cam window the hole cable runs center and brace is almost 6 1/16 my question is I'm going to buy a Lastchance press is to my understanding mechanics of modern archery equipment is adding a few twist to the string shorten ata first then it would of course change rotation of the cams to adjust timing and the one I hear the most is a 1/2 twist in bottom control cable is to much and by pulling the upper axle to add a twist in the upper yoke micro adjust the bottom cam timing where that 1/2 twist on cable to much he really screwed up his bow plus a right tare after he got both thick side tophats he installed its telling me to move top cam to the right and flip where it was set from the factory his original left tare i think was from stretch that threw him off i told my son shouldn't have had him move hats tell everything is set.
Like any retailer, there are some archery shops and bow techs who are either too busy or don’t care about solving a customer’s unique bow problem(s). As a consumer, you have to take responsibility to know enough about your equipment to operate it effectively.
When I first started shooting bow, My "Pro Shop" set me up with at 28" DL. The kid that was supposed to be some kind of Hoyt tech. (and rather smug) insisted that was my draw length... I knew and could feel something wasn't right so I started watching videos and learning on my own. Come to find out my DL was 30.5", and my bow accommodated that just fine, but this person either didn't know, or was just unwilling to help out..
Thanks for making all these super helpful videos, it's a blessing to have some one that knows and is willing to share.
thanks for the video, incredibly well explained.
But is a 1 cam better than 2 cams, and to adjust?
I live in Belgium and we do not have the option to shoot anywhere in a field or meadow. Also that ATA in the States, that is something that we do not know or have.
We go to a store and buy a bow. Everything else is up to us., Adjustment, pounds, draw length. So everything. A pro shop is not here either. So we have to buy everything and hope that we can shoot well with it. We have to order a bowpress like that of last chance archery in America. And that is expensive, very expensive with the transport to Belgium.
Sounds alot like my bow shop, they always want to tune your bow themselves and then hand you a small paper with the supposed bullet hole. They get all weird about it when you tell them I'd like to shoot it. Problem is there ain't never anyone there that can work on bows except for a couple hours a few days a week. Can't stand that we don't have a decent bow shop close unless I want to travel.
Decent video but I don't agree with the cam timing. Hybrid bows can benefit from having the top draw stop hit first. This preloads the control cable before the bottom stop hits the much firmer buss cable and the back wall will feel firmer. It also helps alleviate some vertical nock travel and helps the bow hold up on target better because the top cam does not have the "slop". If you creep tune many hybrid bows, you'll find the best creep tune with the top cam hitting first too. Also, making the stops hit at the same time is not the cam timing, that's cam sync. Timing is the starting rotational position. Timing is at brace, sync is how they rotate in relation to one another.
Like your video's because of your video's i just ordered me a Prime Black 5 Today. Sorry I couldn't buy it from the Bow Rack but I live 6 hrs away.
This may be more of a question than it is a statement. Arrow spine and varied point weight can cause good or bad paper tuning just as much as a badly tuned bow. Would it be just as appropriate to have an arrow tuned to a perfectly squared, in time, properly set bow and arrow rest? Basically set the bow to the desired draw weight and length, set it up "in spec" with the arrow rest in center shot with the nock point and then find the arrow spine, arrow length, and corresponding point weight to match the bow's settings? Again, just throwing this out there as a question/ possible solution to the same tuning and setup issues. Thanks for the video. Great info. 👍
Your vids are money bro! I love my bow shop but I was shooting after a “tune” and this video is giving me dejavu. Expensive tune for zero change in results. I’m working on learning how to do it myself but for now I like to let the pros do it so I don’t Jack it up. But I always appreciate your insight.
As a guitarist and an archer, I can tell you to never trust your shop's setup in the first place. I asked my shop to intonate my guitar, and when I got it it was slightly off, because fret pressure changes, same goes with bows and grip pressure. No one else can set up your bow for you, they can only help get you on your way.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and input. Im going crazy. I have a Halon pro comp and found that the new string is extending to the point of impacting the cable guide. Small pieces of the kisser was being left behind on the guide so I removed the kisser incase the weight of it is a factor cause I have no idea. Never had this issue with a bow and worried the string will be compromised, this is my only outlet to decompress from life. Please help when and if u can. Love ur vids and much respect.
I'm confused. I have a PSE with a hybrid cam system and to my knowledge they can't be timed like the symmetrical bows can be.
My shop takes in back tunes then has me shoot they adjusts and my bow is spot on I never understood this tuning a bow for a shooter thats shooting wrong isn't good a perfectly tuned bow shot right will be good 👍
I needed this video big time right now
What does it help with when I tune a bow?should I get my bow tuned I don’t know if my bow has bin tuned. Can a bow get tuned more than once? I only shoot target with my bow. Should I take it to a archery shop to get my bow tuned
My Invicta likes the top a touch fast, worked on it for a month and a fast top was the only thing that fixed it. Shoots amazing now
I used to think cam lean was the issue with all my shooting and tuning woes. Then I learned how to properly shoot a bow. Cam lean isn't the big deal that I thought it was.
How about a video on creep tuning
I wish I lived close to your shop I always am tuning my shooting but don’t have a bow press to try things out ,I don’t have a good shop within a hour drive
Great Job...good stuff
Good factual video. When I tune a bow for someone I tell them to check it to make sure it's tuned for their style of shooting. Just because it's tuned for me doesn't mean it's tuned for them.
Inside Out - that is Downtown info to share. Your the Man! Keep'em flying.
Man you’re a GOD sent 👍🏽!!!! Thank You 🙏 for the valuable information