Spine Indexing VS. Nock Indexing - ("How To")
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I talk about how to spine index arrows and then I talk about how to nock index arrows and the importance of both. I also go over my full arrow tuning process for shooting them into proper consistency. AND, at the end, I will explain how I combine both methods of tuning to get just a little bit more out of my arrows!
this channel is made for archers looking to become self sufficient in all aspects of the sport. we will be reviewing how to set up archery equipment in the most efficient way possible. We'll also be diving into some hunting videos, buying guides, and archery product reveiws, along with some fun expedition shooting and miscellaneous videos. thank for joining the crew and welcome to Self Sufficient Archery!
Looks like they shoot best on the weak side of the spine
They do! I'm glad you caught that! I was going to say something about that in the video but for the sake of the video length I didn't include it.. That's another perk of revisiting the spine tester after nock indexing is that it can also show you whether you spine is too stiff or too weak. The 250 spine arrows are too stiff for the set up That I'm shooting and the spine tester sold me out 😂
This was one of the best detail videos I've come across. Thank you very much!
My pleasure! I'm glad you enjoyed it! Share it if you want!
I do pretty much the same thing, and I am primarily a bowhunter. I use my RAM tool to check the spine defection of a dozen shafts after they are cut to length and inserts installed. I mark the weak side of the arrow typically, then I shoot the bareshafts through paper at 6-7 feet out of a fairly tuned bow. If my bow is not tuned, you can't get good results, so I know I have to have it shooting down the middle before I start anything. Once I shoot each shaft through paper and get a bullet hole with that shaft, I re-mark it once again to the new nock position and erase the original mark. Then I fletch with my cock vane up to the new mark, then shoot through paper again after they are fletched to verify good flight/behavior. After this I typically go out and shoot groups at 20 yards to weed out any that might misbehave. I started doing this 15+ years ago and have pretty much effectively gotten rid of flyers and instead of having a dozen arrows where 4-5 might group while the rest have different POI's, I can get them all to group together. I normally can get at least 11 out of the 12 to hit the same spot every time. Great video and explanation. I hope more people find this video and can understand what you are doing and apply it their archery journey. I think it is well worth doing. Great job.
Solid! The attention to detail is next level! Great job bro!
So true in what ur showing! Weaker spine on top is more forgiving.... I have tried shooting weaker spined arrows and have better results over all... EX: since we cut arrows the spine stiffens which is something a lot over look especially if you cut under the 28 in...Also point weight is a big factor in the over all ...... I must say it was nice to see you Angus on here .... Lol got to have some Angus video always nice to watch informative and honest great job :)
Thanks for always watching! It's a pleasure to put out the videos for everyone and I'm glad to see people getting something from them. There isn't a lot of videos out there that go into a little deeper detail or look at the smaller nuances of things (which is what I try to provide). I know that my audience probably isn't as large as the audience for the more basic stuff but that stuff is already out there and some of things that I post aren't (At least not that I can find). God bless!
@@AngusMoss_Archery Always a pleasure ... never enough knowledge out there, the more the better and u r doing a wonderful job.... The people that aren't seeing what ur putting out there are definitely missing out....thx
Very well done Angus, keep it up.
Thanks for watching! 🙂
Great information. Thank you 🏹🎯
Amen brother thanks for the comment on faith more people should do it. RTQ
Absolutely! Thanks for watching man!
Killer Bro.
Bass& Bucks shout out.
have you tried floating your bare shafts in a tub with soapy water to find the stiff side of the spine? (heavy/stiff side will turn down), and then check on the spine indexer to verify if it really works? i dont know anyone that has a spine indexer to check, but in theory it seems like it would work.
I've never used the floating method to find my spine becuase I've heard from enough guys that shoot with me that "the floating method is okay and will work if you don't have a spine tester but it's not very accurate and doesn't always work"ish. So becuase of that I've never cross referenced the two against each other to test the accuracy of either one.
Great information
I am recurve shooter. Continues score 9,2 at 18m and 8,7 on 70m. I agree with spine indexing (spine alignment measurement) when you shoot anything worse than easton ACE line.
I watch at tournaments the compound shooters and have to say … Work on your form and mental side before …. 1.spine indexing + grouping weight +-0,25g. 2.bare shaft on 30m with 80cm spot…when everything is in the gold…number your arrow…analyse them with statistic apps 50shot/arrow and sort them out like they grouping and again …. work on you form and train harder…
Paper tests are so last century…so many issues can cause a little slider worse flight trough the paper …at the end it counts where the arrow hit… so go to data=facts where the arrow (number) sit in the target…analyse with statistic app
Great video! Now how much of an improvement do you net out of this process? Is this something you do for all arrows and archery or just for certain aspects like indoor. I have seen in the passed people like Jesse B shoot very weak arrows as they have grouped the best and even further like 80 yards. Would this process apply if you group tune? Which appears to be the most common method on upper end shooters? Look forward to hearing back! Maybe a part 2.
I don't think group tuning is that common for any of us. I think there are a few people that do it becuase it's less work but you get what you pay for. This method is more accurate. Group tuning will not make all your arrows fly the same way. If you don't have a spine tester then sure group tuning is the next best thing. And as far as how important it is; I would say it depends on what you are doing. If you are doing a western hunt where you could be taking a bomb shot or shooting for bill money than this is critical in my eyes.
PS: you can also group tune after doing this process if you really want to.
Excellent information!! Angus, how many arrow builds do you have and what kind of arrows do you like? Do you also try different weight arrows?
Thank you and God bless.....Mike
Hey Mike! Thanks for watching and I use Black Eagle Arrows for everything, I have 5 to 6 different base arrow builds that I use depending on the situation and all of them vary in weight. God bless you too 🙂
If you put the spine up and oriented the cock vain as so that should just by default tell you where your nock goes and stays. If you start turning the nock then you just wasted all the time spine indexing and orientation of the cock vain. Im prolly not thinking of it right. Can someone correct me please
What paper tuning stand is this
It's a CW Ericson
Put up an affiliate link for the index tool. I need one
Why not just bareshaft tune? I mean by all means do you man, but seems like if you just bareshaft, get a bullethole then fletch it would cut out a bunch of crap. Thats what I do anyway. But I don't have a spine indexer or anything
Bare shaft tuning doesn't make your arrows consistent with each other which is what this video is about.
I don't think bare shaft tuning is as great as the mainstream leads but it is easier if thats what someone is after. to each their own. Also, If you really want to bare shaft this process doesn't prohibit that. You can always do both. I think using the method in the video, combined with *smart* paper tuning is better then bare shaft tuning though.
Also with the way you just explained you tune your set up you are likely moving your sight WAY out of ideal alignment with the peep sight at full draw which creates a lot of inconsistency. I'll be doing a video on that eventually as well but it's basically the same concept as my "finding correct draw length and D Loop length" video, just from side to side instead of up and down. I'll link it below.
th-cam.com/video/y7Z02EbeVtg/w-d-xo.html
@@AngusMoss_Archery I bareshaft through paper. As far as I know it's the only way to do it. Now I'm curious what your definition of bareshaft tuning is. If you bareshaft through paper and get a bullethole then all the arrows are the exact same. We gotta have different definitions of bareshaft tuning, cause to say having a bareshaft bullethole through paper isn't consistent doesn't make sense
Bare shaft tuning through paper is only one part of bare shaft tuning and I actually know people that don't do that part at all.
What you're doing when you're bareshaft tuning is you're trying to get your fletched shaft to tear a bullet hole with your bareshaft and the second part is making them both impact in groups at further distances.
So to do the first part of bare shaft tuning properly, you have to be able/willing to change your arrow length/spine, point weight, and/or draw weight.
Most people that I know don't want to deviate from their draw weight so that's out. As far as point weight goes, point weight is a HUGE factor to your FOC and adding and subtracting to that with no regard to you overall arrow build can hinder your set up more than help it. And lastly is changing arrow length/spine. generally hunters dont want their arrows cut more than a couple inches (at the most) in front of the riser and no less than flush with the riser (especially fixed head users) so that leaves about 2 inches of play. That's not much when you can't adjust anything else on the set up. For target shooters it's kinda the same but it's no more than flush to the riser and obviously you can't go further past the rest. even if you have an overdraw you are only looking at about 3 - 4 inches of play.. which could be enough to achieve the bare shaft goal if your not worried about your overall arrow build for the given situation you will be using the arrow in.
Now if you can get through all that, then you have to go shoot a fletched shaft and a bareshaft arrow through the paper and get a bullet hole for both of them.
Once you get a bullet hole, the second part of bare shaft tuning is shooting both a bareshaft arrow and a fletched arrow at different distances (30y, 40y, 50y) and trying to get those arrows to group. If they don't group (which they probably wont) you have to take both arrows into your shop heat up and remove the point and cut a half inch off of the arrow (at the most depending on the distance that your are bareshaft tuning) and then reinstall the point after cleaning it (cleaning points to reinstall them takes a while if you want to make sure you keep them in the arrow). Then you take them both back out and paper tune them again to make sure that they are still good (or not) and then you take them back out to shoot at distance to see if they group. If they don't group you have to repeat the process until they do.. thats time consuming. Which is fine. My point is that it isnt THAT quick of process if you do it right. And it doesnt let you build your arrows for the situation necessarily.. you get what you get in a sense. The process that I displayed above is consuming also but the process that I displayed has very little to do with bow tuning and everything to do arrow tuning and arrow consistency.
Anyways;
Once you get your arrows almost grouping (we'll say 3-4 inches apart) at 50y then you have to start adjusting your rest. by moving your rest in different directions you are also going to have to move your sight which can be a bad thing if you already have a decent amount of face pressure on the string becuase (let's say you have to move your sight out away from the raiser) you will then have to put even more face pressure on the string in order to get your peep sight to line up with the scope ring. Which (depending on how much you have to move it) can throw your systems alignment way out of wack and cuase you to have to be constantly incorrect in order to be successful in the shot.
Most of the time when you build an optimal arrow you can't get the two arrows to impact together anyways and I honestly dont think that many worry about if they impact together anyways. The goal is to just to know where the bare shaft impacts in comparison to fletched shafts for reference in the case if an equipment failure.
So with that said, most people build their arrows before they even order them and then tend to not want to stray very far from that build. And if the right amount of effort is pit forward before ordering and receiving the arrows then they don't have to stray far anyways.
@@AngusMoss_Archery in my case I know what spine I need, point weight and length already. I bareshaft through paper, fletch one, then shoot out to 15 yards to make sure they group together then fletch the rest. I can stack them on top of one another after that.
Where can you buy a paper tuner Like that
It's a CW Erickson Paper tuner.
Extremely easy to make man. You can save a little scratch that way
I was told to start at the weak side of the shaft up because the arrow will start its dynamic bend at the weakest side of the arrow. It looks like most of the arrows are tuning from the weak side?
I read your long reply to someone asking about bare shaft tuning. The reason I bare shaft is finding my center shot. I don’t change length of arrow or point weight. I move my rest or shim cams to get the fletched arrow and bare shaft arrow to hit together. It saves me on the number of times I have to shoot my broadhead into a target. I shoot fixed blades.
So this is way more advanced than what I’m doing? You’re already perfect center shot and this is arrow tuning only?
Why couldn’t I follow this step by step video but do it with a bare shaft with my arrow weak side up as my starting point? It would allow more than just 3 different knock positions is why I ask.
Great video and information. Thanks
I'm just curious what you use the binos for while doing this??😂😂 Great video
You look alike Chris Bee but a beefier version of him
I think you have your strongest and weakest flipped actually. The 249 means it is closer to 0 which is fully extended.
I'm not sure what your referring to and I may have misspoke somewhere in the video but I will say that the higher the number the weaker the spine. The lower, the stronger. The more it flexes the more the number will grow. The less it flexes the less the number will grow.
Grey video and explanation
Great video Angus. Now that tournament season is over, I'll definitely give that a try. I normally just spine index and roll with it. Glad you went into detail about how you do it.
Glad to help! 🙂 thanks for watching
Great video and really complete and well explained, now the arrows you have are to stiff for your set up, so the next step would be to start adding weight to the front of the arrow to get the arrows to tune to your setup, either going with a heavier point or adding screw in weight? This of course is fine if shooting known distance as a heavier arrow won’t hurt you as long as they are all consistently hitting the same spot and tuning to the setup, but if shooting unknown you’d have to probably choose a different spine and start over. Correct? Now I know that you torque tune with your sight position, but after completing this process then you would do a modified French tune or walk back tune? Or would walk back been completed along with torque during bow setup and then all new arrow setups spine/ nock tuned and not re walk back tuned?
Because I normally spine test and fletch according to the stiffest point which I put up or cock vane, then nock index to get all group tuned, followed by a walk back, where I move sight at 3 yds and slight rest movement at 10/12 yds then step back to 30 for confirmation, which beyond 30 I can’t 100% percent say it isn’t my form or shot execution, of course I’m throwing out all shots between 3 and 30 that didn’t feel like I broke a clean shot. Yep I’m still overthinking it LOL! Thanks as always for all the great content
Hey thanks man!
So I would say it depends on the situation (if you need a a stiffer or weaker spine or lighter or heavier point).. FOC and sight tapes are always critical to consider. Even if you're shooting known distance, the sight tape being very long will cause you to have to move your scope a long ways on your site bar which could also have you having to fight for peep sight alignment at different distances. So for target style tournaments where your sight is fixed, I would say it might be more benificial to just change your point weight provided you stay around a 10-12% FOC BUT for tournament where your changing your sight alot it could be better to get the different spined arrow. It all about circumstances and what the arrows is used for. I've found the best results when I lean towards the stiffer side of the spine recommendation but if you are recommended to shoot a 500 spine arrow and you buy 250 spine you'll be screwed.
I don't ever walk back tune. I tried it a couple times and it didn't leave my set up ideal.
Great info!
Good video, thanks. Looking forward to seeing more videos! 🤙
Thanks for checking it out!
Will shooting all my arrows bare shaft through paper get me more exaggerated results? In other words, if all my bare shafts are shooting the same should I be able to then fletch them and then do a final paper tune with one of them to make sure the bow is tuned for fletched arrows? It seems this would be the best way I could find the same flex out of my shafts without a spine tester?
Are you saying nock indexing them before you fletch? Is so, then the answer is yes, but it's A LOT more time-consuming.
@@AngusMoss_Archery Thank you for the quick reply! Wouldn’t it take the same amount of time considering I’m just doing it without vanes instead of with like in the video so as to exaggerate the results so it’s easier to see the change in each nock rotation. Are you maybe suggesting that I would have to do it all again with vanes?
No I'm just saying that you'd have more than four positions to choose from so it takes a lot more shots unless you still only shoot them in 4 different positions.
Great video. I love it when people take it to the next level. I do a similar method and think we have the same results. I skip the whole spine indexing part. I just match a bare shaft to a fletched shaft in paper and then at 20 yards. Then I match all the rest of the arrows to that in the paper fletched. Every once in a while I have to reflectch one. A shorter version. For hunting arrows, I do the same for the fletched and bare shaft and then I knock-tune each arrow at 40 yards with a broadhead on them. What I find about spine, is that tuning the bow will be effortless if the spine is correct. If it's tough to tune the spine isn't correct.
Can you go through this again - if I’m tracking correctly, you skip spine indexing altogether and then match a bare shaft to a fletched shaft in paper.
Question - is the fletched shaft already nock tuned at that point? Did you build one arrow and then tune your rest so the bare shaft and fletched shaft matched? I want to mirror what you’re doing because it sounds logical to me.
Great video
Thank you!
Great job !