I would love this segment. We are getting too caught up in new cameras rather than what really sells a better image: lighting, production design, lens, etc. If you can do a series of trying to match old cameras to the best image when compared to their new counterparts, it would be great!
Honestly yes. I haven't thought about new cameras since I got an Ursa Mini 4.6k some years ago and realized it was up to me to make things look good. After learning a lot more, I realized how much more capable my less expensive cameras had been the whole time. Now it's hard to watch people obsess over new cameras with marginally better specs... just buy more lights and save up a production design budget if you want to make something that actually comes across like a film.
And for full daylight shooting, low ISOs. My cellphone has a native ISO of 40, and it produces AMAZING colors. My Canon with a native ISO of 100... not so much.
I've been using an F3 as my main camera for my TH-cam channel for the past 2 years. Most people don't know this, but the sensor actually downscales from 2.5K to give a nice sharp 1080p image. The internal structure of the camera is made of magnesium and the stereo sound with the F3's optional $3,000 (original price) microphone is fantastic. I would highly recommend picking up one of these workhorse cameras for pro work too. I plan on upgrading to an Alexa Classic soon, but the F3 will stay as my B-cam and run and gun setup.
Do you shoot 444 with it? I have one without it and I would love to have the 444 because I have a pix e5 that would get me up to 4444XQ. Is it worth it to sell mine and get one with the upgrade?
@@josuenunez5353 Honestly most of the time I just shoot internal for the sake of quick turnaround/ storage. I've found that the difference between the external 10 bit files are a big jump from internal 8 bit, but the 12 bit 444 files aren't a big image jump over the 10 bit.
Never in my entire professional career in television and digital video have I ever been asked to deliver a final file in 4K. The standard for delivery is still 1080p and will continue to be for along time. There are some great bargains to be had in old cinema cameras that don't shoot 4K. The C300 Mark 1 for example is an AMAZING camera that you can pick up used from around $1000.
Let's be honest here : almost nobody shooting in 4K actually need to shoot in 4K. Netflix will ask that you deliver in 4K - alright, alright... but that's only because they want to offer 4K streaming. And no one but a few individual can actually stream 4K... because it takes and in-sa-ne bandwith, a 4K screen, 4K cables, and insane connection stability. Very, very few people have this. The vast majority who "stream in 4K" *think* they stream in 4K, but in fact, they're *not*. "4K" just became a go-to marketing term that impresses anyone who doesn't know anything about this business. The vast majority of 4K cameras are cheap as hell, and pixel density is the *last thing that matters*. Stream Netflix's Altered Carbon at 540p and you'll get what I'm saying. The dynamic range from the large-format Arri that have been used in this series for the first time is so insane, your eyes forget about the pixels anyway, since this is motion picture... and yes, if I concentrate I can see pixels in 1080p. But it doesn't bother me to have a no more than an ok wifi when I watch Netflix because what matters is the lighting, lens choice, focus-pulling and dynamic range of the camera and nothing more. The whole "I got a 4K camera and I can bake-in a LUT so I'm a DP now" thing just gets me real fed-up.
obviously never worked for Netflix lol (i take your point though, and the chances of landing a lucrative Netflix deal are very small for us indies, if we're even aiming for that)
Would love to see you continue this series. You’ve always set the bar when it comes to thorough tests and informative videos without sacrificing entertainment or interest. 👏🏻
@@crimebodge7274 www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PMW-F3L-Camcorder-with-4-4-4-RGB-option-CASE-AND-BATTERY-INCLUDED/254780463657?epid=113366523&hash=item3b52195a29:g:SpIAAOSwAu5fswaR found this for 1k easily within 5mins, is this the same camera?
I bought this camera when it was released 10 years ago along with a set of Angenieux Optimo DP zooms, 16-42 & 30-80. It replaced my Sony F900 and Canon Cine B4 mount lenses. The F3/Angenieux combination was used for many local commercials and corporate videos. At that time I was also an early adapter of off board recording. I paired the F3 with a Cinedeck recorder. Something 10 years ago was unheard of on professional productions. They didn’t understand that I was giving them 10bit 4:4:4 RGB in Prores. Something at that time was only possible on a $125,000.00 Panasonic D5 deck and no Prores. Today no one bats an eye at an off board recorder but then no one understood what an awesome product I was delivering by doing it that way. Sony made a wired remote “paintbox” that gave me control of all the menu functions of the camera. I would actually “paint” the look with the DP and burned it in for delivery, no post color correction was done to the footage. The F3 and the lenses are still in my inventory. The camera doesn’t get used any longer but the lenses do. There’s something to be said for investing in good glass instead of cameras I guess. No baloney Sony. Good stuff. Enjoyed your video. Being from Detroit I can’t help but leave you with a line from a Bob Seger song “I thought to myself...shit I’ve known that for 10 years!”
Jesse Paton Reminds me Mattias Burling reviews, he always shows cameras claiming he paid like 50% less that the average price everybody else in the world can find them lol
Edit: Sorry guys, the offer for footage was to Caleb specifically. That said, I'll see if I can find some of my old stuff and post before/after grading to my channel. . Logged in and was surprised to see my old workhorse being featured! A couple thoughts: 1) Recording internally I was competing against smaller DSLRs of the time that were far more agile. Recording externally, I was competing with RED. The name brand (clients thought it was best), and eventually the resolution increase. 2) If you really want to unlock the full range of the F3's colour, grab yourself a 4:4:4 recorder, use dual-SDI output, and watch your jaw hit the floor. If you want a couple files, let me know and I'll try digging them out of the archives.
hey, id love to see some of the footage you got! Would you put it on your channel or send it to me!!! Thinking of my future B Cam beside my original bmpcc that has similar qualities
This SONY F3 is a testament to great SUPER 35 engineering. I learned on a similar ENG camera (EX-1) and realized these cameras set a better standard (2K/1920/1080) for the modern era of image quality, by keeping things stable. 4K/8K just allow better high dynamic range capture -- but 2K keeps everything very efficient. Ideally, we have more tools than we actually need, due to excessive industry competition. Good video dude! 🎥🤔
Same thing I noticed. Since this and a lot more videos the price raised a lot and, personally, despite I love his videos, I hate these trend-like things where everyone is compulsively buying everything without a reason (I hope I'm assuming the worst). Probably he bought it when prices weren't this up, but it's really scary how it changed in 4 months, really scary.
@@FrankValchiria I actually found some F3 on Ebay on sale for 800 or less, unfortunately I didn't have the money at the time but if I had known that prices would rise as they had I'd have found a way to buy one of those.
I wouldn't be surprised if people watched this video and suddenly decided these cameras were for them. The problem with being a successful TH-camr is that you may influence people to buy a lot of something and unintentionally jack up the prices. For example, Scotty Kilmer did this when he praised Toyota Celicas and vintage hunting jackets went up a great deal on eBay thanks to Paul Harrell's habit of pulling guns and ammo out of his pockets.
FINALLY someone to make a series about older cinema cameras and comparing them to newer ones! Cannot wait for the future reviews! Keep up the good work!!!
I've been using this camera for the last year as my introduction into owning my own 'big' camera. I've loved it. The colour, ease of grading slog1 and dynamic range is great. It just has a really nice look. Also, the 8bit 4:2:0 straight out of camera is awesome for most stuff, I ended up rarely using my external recorder. I thank my mentor time and time again for directing me towards a big practical beautiful camera rather than the new, impractical, hot kid on the block (BMPC) - he said "do you want to learn how to use a camera? Or just have nice specs". Beautiful image, practical camera, ease of grade trumps small form factor camera with 4k any day.... unless you're shooting for Netflix or the likes of course!
@@johnhumbug5199 Yes I see, but bread and butter comes from seminars, TV interviews, conventions and local spots which does not required the latest but requires XLRs Zooms and Presence. This camera fills the void quickly.
Who would pay max $1200 for this camera. 1080p is become obsolete now, most TVs and monitors are at leat 2K even smaryphones. Try to watch a 1080p video on a 4k tv. It may be worth $800 if the colors and dynamic range were out of this world at 1080p, but from the look of it, the image quality is pretty average and the low light capabilities are pretty bad. That's a big turn down.
This is one of the most entertaining videos I've seen on TH-cam in awhile. I love old technology, and I'm still blown away at how good it really is. We often forget how perfect it was when it came out. New technology sometimes shortens our memory. I look forward to checking out more of your videos. Kudos, sir.
this is the type of camera customer need to see you with when you are recording an event for them. They think the bigger, the better so they will pay you what you asked them for, unlike if you present your self to an event with the *α6400.* I had got questioned when doing event.
That's a good point. There are times these cameras can be intimidating and intrusive. But sometimes it can work to your advantage. Try explaining the difference in resolution on that old PD-170 and an iphone and you might get a blank stare. lol
I'd argue it's a better camera for an event, too. Dedicated control buttons, internal NDs and being quite weighty mean for run and gun it is honestly in a league of its own. I shoot on both the F3 snd the A7S and I'd take an F3, barring low light, to an event any day.
YES! I Have owned this beautiful thing for years and shot hundreds of high profile projects on it. People are always asking if I used the Alexa, and are gobsmacked when I tell them about the little F3. Above everything, the image quality and colour science is just so pleasing with the S LOG. It's unreal. It's also so well designed, economical on space, and tough. Get one!
Thanks for using it. I designed the electric circuit and image quality adjustment of this camera. I was surprised at the low noise and good sensitivity of the image sensor.
You’ve gone too far this time!!! You can’t be “DSLR video shooter” and use cinema cameras. I accepted the mirrorless cameras, but this is a bridge I will not cross. Just kidding, I thought that this was super interesting. It makes me wonder what overlooked configurations might be out there. It might be cool to do a series focused on finding the best value options at various price points. For instance, (all in) how would this compare to other configurations at the price point?
The green and magenta banding can be "fixed" by increasing the saturation while recording then reducing before grading. I've been doing it for over a year and I haven't noticed and gamut clipping so it's definitely worth it. (Also fixes the blotchy skin tones)
If anyone wants to see this camera in action, my two short films Time Oddity and Checkmate were filmed on this camera. Time Oddity was also nominated for cinematography in a film festival.
You touched my heart, I mostly prefer opting to buy a premium pro camera that others consider outdated. These pro models are trustworthy to last. They seem outdated, lest we forget that they were star performers when released.
Excellent! For someone just starting out, this is perfect. Add in an E-Image EG10A2 Tripod with GH10 Head, a wireless mic, a reflector board and you're ready to make movies.
@@dslrvideoshooter me too but i would like to see more of real footage like shooting in daylight to watch a diffrence in DR or Rollingshutter, anyway great video !
@@pawechekowski9186 Yes! More rolling shutter tests, PLEASE!!!!!!!! I was/am looking to buy a Sony A7iii. While doing my research, other YT channels were making a good case for the a6500, so I checked it out. I was almost all in, until they did a rolling shutter test.
What a great review on this camera! I wouldn't be surprised if they sell like hot cakes on eBay as a result of this. One thing I should point out that I don't think was mentioned that is pretty important to know about this camera,... There was an update firmware option would allow you to shoot this camera at 444 off the sensor. It wasn't a RAW image, you would ideally use the ProRes HQ Wrapper and Codec, however, it is 444. I do know that back in the day, that is how many of the larger commercial houses used this camera. Another note, this camera was used as a B-Camera to the famous Sony F5 and F55 all the time. Credits all over the place for that. And one last thing, my true inspiration behind this camera came from one shooter who used this camera like it was an extension of his body and he is Zach Zamboni. He was the director of photography and primary shooter on the Anthony Bourdain show. I don't know about you, but I used to love the watching these shows. I couldn't get over the low light, rich color, and dynamic range I was witnessing in the show. Come to find out later that Zach shot everything on SXS cards, So, it was all the internal 420 8bit codec. You got to hand it to the editor and colorist on that show, because that footage looked Amazing. He did however, use a Fuji 19-90mm Cabrio T2.9 which I think at the time was about $40K.
I would love it if you profiled the AJA Cion. Such a promising camera that got trounced because of Blackmagic announcing the Ursa Mini at half the cost. You can find them used for around $1200-$1500 now. So many negative quirks (lied about their dynamic range, no true LOG profile), but also so many positive features (wide range of codecs, global shutter, and output of 4K RAW to Atomos). For the price it was at when it came out it just wasn't good enough to compete with Blackmagic, but I wonder how good it is now that it's around the same price as a used C100 MKI
I Shot a feature film off of the Cion for free through their #TryCion Program. Needless to say, I was IMPRESSED with the Camera and the things we could do with it. We actually SAVE a bunch of shots with that Camera. Here's the trailer for it - th-cam.com/video/rvwro1BVo9g/w-d-xo.html
@@crosbyt123ify I wanted to take advantage of that so bad when it came out but I simply did not have the time or anything in mind to shoot with it. It's a shame, I feel like they could've evolved it a bit and made something better. When they announced it I remember it kind of shook the industry, and then Blackmagic showed up and everyone was just writing it off as a failure before it even came out.
@@Max-lk2ro It's all good. We didn't have a lot of money to purchase monitors and things like that. We shot this with whatever we had and days we had to made a feature film out of it. But I appreciate your comments and honestly. It means a lot.
I love this. As a total beginner trying to get into filmmaking as a hobby, knowing what older but affordable cinema cameras are still worth buying is invaluable information. Please move forward with this series. Also I’ve seen your Chinon Cinema Lens Set Video and I was wondering if you have any plans on doing another series on affordable cinema lenses, or photo lenses that work for cinema lenses.
don't even think about getting this one, really. any modern mirrorless camera beats it in many ways Caleb doesn't mention: weight, autofocus, lenses, compatibility etc.
We got the used FS700 (with the 4K upgrade) and Atomos Shogun combo happening the past year and it's been awesome. Worked well with the existing FS7 and tag teamed probably 30+ productions, mostly construction / manufacturing showcases and the slomo was used to great effect. Paid for itself within a month or so. Thanks for the showcase on the F3. Now eyeing a used F3 as a studiocam.
What is the use case for that? I mean, other than you being able to score internet points for finding the one thing you could criticize the camera for and therefore feeling vindicated for shelling out 1000s for the latest greatest gear that the TH-cam hypetrain sold you. 😉
@@MiaogisTeas or you know, that's how they use cameras and are curious to see how it would perform. Or maybe I'm wrong and everyone is as cynical as you assume.
Stabilization is not good on this cameras. Use Olympus, if you need stabilized footage in 5 axis. But colors and dynamic range is good. This is my todays video from Sony PMW-200, graded: th-cam.com/video/bdy2ldvQEyc/w-d-xo.html
@@Wabajak13 That was exactly what I was after. At $800 it's still in the 'starter' range of cameras so an amateur like me craving some special look to the footage would come charging in and create terrible content by using a device that wasn't meant to be used in that way.
I have one of these sitting in a box needing a repair, new battery and new charger. the reason we never bothered is because the SXS cards were so cost prohibitive. you've inspired us to get this beast cranking! thank you sooo much for this video caleb. 1. DSLR Video Shooter (still number one baby) 2. Gerald Undone 3. Potato Jet.
LOVE this kind of content! Really gives a good perspective on gear and how/what to buy. You should TOTALLY do one on the BlackMagic Cinema Camera (BMCC) 2.5K (the grey bricks)!!
It's basically a c100 mark Ii but Sony! Really cool camera, but I can't find it for 800 now, only about 1500. I think this video moved the market a bit! 😅
I would to see you do a video on a Sony HDW Series camera which are part of Sony's CineAlta range but were produced in 1994, 26 years ago. They were some of the first HD camera's made and in my opinion still hold up today with custom gammas implemented which is incredible.
You should have bought Sony fs700r: 4k 60fps/120fps/ 1080p 240fps 10bit 422 or DNG 12bit 444 RAW when connected to Atomos Shogun 4k Inferno. The price between F3 and FS700R is only several hundred dollars difference when buying used.
When I went to Film School, this was the "BIG" digital cinema camera our department invested in. I think we paid $16k and traded some stuff to get it used. We paired it mostly with old cine-modded Nikon glass. We loved the image quality on it, but we had to record externally to a Ki Pro external recorder to get the upgraded 10-Bit 4:4:4, and I remember that seeming like a big hassle at the time. By the time we got it, Magic Lantern RAW and the on-sale $500 BMPCC became the de facto choice for us.
I love the F3! I was a cameraman in a short film last year, and it has a lot of great things! Even though it's old, cinema cameras are just different ecosystems than dslr or mirrorless photography cameras with video capabilities
*tl;dr: only the SDI A/B ports can output 10-bit 4:2:2, also you can record 1080p60 externally (with the RGB444 upgrade).* Are you plugging your SDI into the SDI A port? The SDI out and HDMI ports are limited to 8-bit 4:2:0 output, only the SDI A and B ports can output 10-bit 4:2:2 (up to 30p normally, up to 60p with the RGB444 upgrade) and 4:4:4 (with RGB444 upgrade). I think it's also worth mentioning the differences between the firmware upgrade and the RGB444 upgrade. - The firmware upgrade adds the SLog picture profile via a software update and can be applied to any F3. - The "paid" RGB444 upgrade gives you 3G SDI via SDI A and B ports (so you can get 4:2:2 1080p60 through a single port or 4:4:4 1080p60 through two dual-link ports, not 100% sure about that second one), and obviously gives you 4:4:4 output. It also gives you a slightly different SLog compared to the firmware upgrade (firmware upgrade version of SLog still works concurrently). It's pretty common to find RGB444 pre-installed for the same price or a little more. So you *can* get 1080p60 out of the F3 through a single SDI cable as long as you get one with the RGB444 upgrade. I've personally got one kitted out with Element Technica Armour and a Blackmagic Video Assist (cheapest monitor/recorder for 1080p60 4:2:2 I think). Without the RGB444 upgrade, I believe you can still get 1.5G dual link (rather than 3G dual link), so you could dual-link two 1080i60 fields to get 1080p60. But that would involve a rather pricey dual-link recorder which is pretty counter-intuitive.
i, as a panasonic guy, would really lovr to see the AF100/AF101 in modern day standards, it doesn't seem all that special, but with the right glass i've seen it work wonders
Ted Jones “do you hear how fat my neck humbucker sounds right now? Way better than my last Les Paul. Plus this one has coil splitting so it’s basically a strat whenever I want it to be.”
The comparison is kind of pointless. I mean you put an external recorder on the cinema camera. And it is well known, that to get the most out of a sony mirrorless camera you don't shoot in slog 2. Slog 2 flattens the picture so much and uses so little of the 8 bit color space that as soon as you stretch the image out again through luts, the limits of 8 bit become visible. This is less a comparison of cameras and more a comparison of 8bit vs 10bit and different color profiles
@@Max27653 Cine2 is a very popular profile that is not as flat but still retains great dynamic range. (And as a bonus you have a way lower minimum iso then with slog 2 or 3) And it is well know by everybody who understand the limitations of 8bit and has in depth knowledge of the sony system. This video goes into depth about the different profiles, it is worth a watch and you will understand, why slog2 or 3 is not the ideal profile for sonys consumer mirrorless cameras, that only have 8bit color depth. th-cam.com/video/9E8doNzDymo/w-d-xo.html
@@jakob.k_design What's your thoughts on PP4? All I know is that the overheating issues are bad on any camera from the a-series except (maybe) the a6600 which is a dealbreaker in itself. Doing an interview and telling people to hold that thought for 10 min while the camera has a snooze is a content disturbing disaster. Missing the ring part of a wedding etc. And shooting a doc where you can run the camera continuously covering an event, just to have the camera shutdown at the crucial moment of the scene nixes any colour conversation. F3 blows the 6400 out of the water in that regard - it's a tank and flawless in that regard. The a6600 is only camera worth buying in that series, AND only - in my case - because of the tiny form factor for incognito shooting where you do not want a ton of attention to get cinema-veritie direct cinema content. When content is key in low-profile situations, the low-light capable 6400 with its subpar 8bit 4.2.0 low data rate is what you want, and here slight magenta infused grays or other non-perfect visual aesthetics are not a large concern. And you can use Caleb's advice on how to help with that in his useful Sony colour issues vid. We need to think more about what we are going to use a particular camera for and what genre. Clearly, the A7S iii is the way to go but if budget is a consideration, for indies, you can get the a6600 at less than half the price (with an on-camera Beachtek mini-mixer). As far as colour, where form factor means nothing and you are not delivering on 4K, the F3 is by far the superior camera in RGB 444 Slog-1 mode to an external recorder - it's very Alexa like with skin-tones, creamy roll-off, and lovely colour science. What I would be interested in knowing is that if anyone has tried to up-res 444 from the F3 to 2 or 4K, shooting with sharp lenses; as I suspect the images would be unique from the pack and likely more film-analog like. Thanks Caleb for inspiring richer conversations to happen without the tech focus being the holy grail.
Awww. My baby! I bought a used F3 years ago and it was my A cam for years and served me super well. Eventually I upgraded to an FS5 but I still find myself doing all my indie filmmaking with this camera (FS5 for corporate but F3 for filmmaking). There's just something about that image quality you can't quite put your finger on. It has a big budget magical feel that the FS5/7 never quite managed. Such a dope image.
You let the secret out of the bag! Been shooting a F3 for the last 4 months for all the reasons you state. Rock solid image and built in ND's. Also throw the footage in a ACES timeline and the footage really sings :)
I owned this camera for about four years and put about 3,500 hours on it. I kick myself now when I put that footage through Resolve Color Management and see the full potential of the sensor! My old footage never looked this good!
is the thought that the image and colour processing/sensor in general are "softer/warmer" or more cinematic which is more "traditionally" pleasing to the eye that makes the cinema cams so much better in your opinion? As opposed to the coldness of the newer sharper cameras? I don't know much about these things, but it seems like the people that do, like you, always lean towards cameras that have that softer/warmer side that is seemingly missing from the the more cold colour rigid digital sharpness that new cameras
This is particularly a Sony issue. The newer Canon cameras all have the warmer, more pleasing skin tone and overall warmer and more saturated colors. The highlights on this particular camera are really beautiful. The image is really comparable to the original black magic pocket. Softer and more filmic looking than the newer models.
I passed up the opportunity to buy an older cinema camera last year. The price seemed good but I wasn't sure how it would stack up to what audiences are used to seeing today. I probably don't shoot enough video to justify purchasing more cameras, though, so it's probably for the best :P
I've actually been looking at these used on eBay, been considering getting a camera like it. Torn between Sony and Panasonic offerings. This was exactly the type of video I wanted to see. I would love to see a video on one of the Panasonic camcorders with interchangeable lenses.
I still use Panasonic's AF100 with Atmos Ninja and footage looks good. Just shoot for your look and do minimal grading. The features for usability rocks. I studied Cinematography in Film School so I approach it from an artistic foundation.
I really like this type video. I've been searching the internet for other options like the one you show but having a hard time finding them. Please make more of these type videos. 1080 is usually sufficient for what I need but having those cinema features in an affordable package would be fabulous. Keep up the good work.
I shoot on the Panasonic AF100 from time to time and love it. Having two XLR inputs built in is so clutch for streamlining productions. I often reach for the AF100 when I want to play into the "Lo-Fi" feeling it has. I'd love to see more on old digital cinema cameras.
I have a feeling that after this review, the price of these used cameras will double lol. Hope I'm wrong. Seems like an awesome buy. If I hadn't already invested in the BMPCC 4K and all the accessories, I'd probably have gone down this road.
Bravo. 👏 If your story is terrible, no one cares which gear you shot on. If your story is amazing, no one cares what gear you shot on. Story 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Love this review.
Bought one earlier in March with the RGB 444 upgrade, and I haven't look back. It's just an amazing camera with a beautiful image. Can't wait to watch your future old cameras review!
I find when you use Canon lenses on the F3 the colours and skin tones are incredibly attractive. I shot an entire feature doc called Bluefin with this camera and a Sound Designs external recorder using both Nikon/Canon with spectacularly pleasing results. We also used the FS700R/Q7+ combo with a custom Ewa Marine underwater bag to continuously (no buffering) capture giant and fast-moving tuna at 240 fps in HD using a super sharp and cheap Sony 10-18 mm lens. We then released the film as an up-res'd 2K DCP video print. Using 2K projection, it played on full-sized theatrical screens at over 20 international film festivals in front of hundreds of people per screening, won awards, and it looked GREAT - we had tons of feedback about how beautiful and visual the film looked - using these "old" cameras which can be bought for a song now. Seriously a re-think is needed unless you are under contract with Netflix (how likely?) or must deliver at least 4K ProRes Raw. In any case, FS700R can deliver wonderfully looking 4K ProRes Raw with an Atomos, while the Convergent Design Q7+ can deliver superior but large "uncompressed" 12bit Cinema DNG files if you need to wrangle that. If you don't enjoy to get fleeced by the marketing hype of new offerings and "specs," both of these older cameras offer filmmakers amazing and exciting value, and again for less than half the cost of a Sony A7S iii for BOTH cameras. I hear you Caleb, and thanks for this video inspiring long overdue considerations - the only guy creating these valuable conversations! I am still using both these cameras while others shell out thousands chasing the latest thing - I will be adding a Sony A7S iii and a6600 (and possibly a Sigma FP) to my camera collection (for low profile shoots). But I am not selling (giving away) my F3 and FS700R cameras - no way! It's really all about having the right camera for the situation, as much you would choose to buy expensive lenses to expand your range of creative options. See my doc here (for free). See if you can spot which shots are the F700R and which ones were captured with the F3: tubitv.com/movies/449113/bluefin
Hi Everyone, The Thumbnail Said it All... I'm writing this comment before I even watch the video... I bought the a used Sony PMW-F3 from 3 Film Majors in New York City about 6 years ago. They were each pretty smart to invest together to then later sell it used when they were done with their final film making projects. I was stoked, I had my eye on F3 for years and finally this was my entry point into owning a CineAlta Sensor. I mean it, I pixel peeped for years, followed every music video, tv commercial and film that used the legendary Sony F3. It had its quarks with their FZ-Mount Adapter however, it came with the PL and I figured I'd eventually get around to picking up glass that was PL Mount... pretty much an industry standard. Needless to say, I managed muster up enough cash to purchase an Optiplex / Canon adapter that communicates with the Sony and allows you to adjust your F-Stop on the Canon Lenses. This was huge for me because at the time all I had was Canon Glass. When I bought it from the students, it came with the Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 which allowed me to capture 422 to ProRes HQ. It was nice for shooting greenscreen. At the time, there was only one Sony Lut, it was and still is called Sony SLog, First Gen, I guess. Well, that added a boat load of additional stops. That in itself was amazing. My friends couldn't wrap there heads around any of it... Until, I would shoot for them, say a small commercial,... once the D-Log was applied they'd loose they're minds with how much push and pull they had in post for Color Correcting and Grading. I'm saving the best for last,... Here it goes, My Wife, Pretty much uses this camera on a daily basis. She has her own TH-cam Channel where she does tutorials on pattern drafting and pattern fitting for clothing. She shoots edits and uploads all her self. She uses the F3 as an over the shoulder shot. She leaves it in One Position and will then Crop/Zoom in post. I'm not lying when I say this, She ZOOMS 400% IN POST and it still holds more detail then any other camera I've tried doing that with. The F3 has a Mojo all its own. Its a one of kind, and I will never, ever, ever, part with it. If any of you are interested in seeing what my wife does with the camera you can find her here. th-cam.com/channels/A-bf9J0r-9lbm70MEcq0Gw.html
Remarkably good review. Very tough to match a review of this quality. Even your voice tone is downright soothing! Great editing. Great choices of what to dig into.
These cameras have always been "nicer to work with than the stinking mirrorless cameras which just look terrible". TH-camrs like you decided for yourselves that DSLR and mirrorless were superior. Please don't start a series on Cine, ENG or camcorders; that'll just be rude MR DSLR Video Shooter.
I'd love to see more stuff like this. It seems like if you're run and gun, modern mirrorless cameras are good because they are light weight. 4k is good because you can crop or stabilize shots when you need to. But, if you are actually interested in making things where you can plan your shots, things like bit depth make more sense to prioritize than resolution. Canon can release a camera with an 8k sensor and it's great for them because they already want big sensors for their photo cameras, and 8k sounds more impressive than 4:4:4 to most people.
Man I'm so broke but I'm for sure gonna be on the look out for one of these used for my skate videos. Thank you so much for always putting out so much quality info! Truly so helpful.
Recognized the F3 from the thumbnail, I remember using it back in 2014 with some basic lenses and was amazed just by looking at the ungraded footage in premiere.
Ive always told kids getting into film making that the latest is not necessarily the best. I almost bought the PWM F3, but the cost of the cards was off putting. Ended up with a GH4 with V Log. Love it. Funny thing is, three films we sold to Redbox were shot with canon DSLRS and a Samsung camera phone!
To fix the colour noise in S-Log boost the saturation in the picture profile, that way it records with the most colour information possible, you can always tone it back in post if its too much! I've found that works pretty well!
I would love this segment. We are getting too caught up in new cameras rather than what really sells a better image: lighting, production design, lens, etc. If you can do a series of trying to match old cameras to the best image when compared to their new counterparts, it would be great!
Honestly yes. I haven't thought about new cameras since I got an Ursa Mini 4.6k some years ago and realized it was up to me to make things look good. After learning a lot more, I realized how much more capable my less expensive cameras had been the whole time. Now it's hard to watch people obsess over new cameras with marginally better specs... just buy more lights and save up a production design budget if you want to make something that actually comes across like a film.
Totally agree. Well said. ☕👏
@@ConnerFoxx nicely said. I also recently went through a period of discovering that my old camera is a lot better than my skills give it credit for
th-cam.com/video/KK9FlPejcc8/w-d-xo.html shot on f3
And for full daylight shooting, low ISOs. My cellphone has a native ISO of 40, and it produces AMAZING colors. My Canon with a native ISO of 100... not so much.
I've been using an F3 as my main camera for my TH-cam channel for the past 2 years. Most people don't know this, but the sensor actually downscales from 2.5K to give a nice sharp 1080p image. The internal structure of the camera is made of magnesium and the stereo sound with the F3's optional $3,000 (original price) microphone is fantastic. I would highly recommend picking up one of these workhorse cameras for pro work too. I plan on upgrading to an Alexa Classic soon, but the F3 will stay as my B-cam and run and gun setup.
Do you shoot 444 with it? I have one without it and I would love to have the 444 because I have a pix e5 that would get me up to 4444XQ. Is it worth it to sell mine and get one with the upgrade?
@@josuenunez5353 If you can keep the cost to you low I think it is. Incredible image at 4:4:4
your stuff looks great
@@AlexHodgins Thank you!
@@josuenunez5353 Honestly most of the time I just shoot internal for the sake of quick turnaround/ storage. I've found that the difference between the external 10 bit files are a big jump from internal 8 bit, but the 12 bit 444 files aren't a big image jump over the 10 bit.
Never in my entire professional career in television and digital video have I ever been asked to deliver a final file in 4K. The standard for delivery is still 1080p and will continue to be for along time. There are some great bargains to be had in old cinema cameras that don't shoot 4K. The C300 Mark 1 for example is an AMAZING camera that you can pick up used from around $1000.
TV isn't the only medium now though (thankfully). And remember, ATSC3 is just around the corner.
I mean Netflix already demands 4k so maybe it's closer than you think
Let's be honest here : almost nobody shooting in 4K actually need to shoot in 4K. Netflix will ask that you deliver in 4K - alright, alright... but that's only because they want to offer 4K streaming.
And no one but a few individual can actually stream 4K... because it takes and in-sa-ne bandwith, a 4K screen, 4K cables, and insane connection stability. Very, very few people have this. The vast majority who "stream in 4K" *think* they stream in 4K, but in fact, they're *not*.
"4K" just became a go-to marketing term that impresses anyone who doesn't know anything about this business. The vast majority of 4K cameras are cheap as hell, and pixel density is the *last thing that matters*. Stream Netflix's Altered Carbon at 540p and you'll get what I'm saying. The dynamic range from the large-format Arri that have been used in this series for the first time is so insane, your eyes forget about the pixels anyway, since this is motion picture... and yes, if I concentrate I can see pixels in 1080p. But it doesn't bother me to have a no more than an ok wifi when I watch Netflix because what matters is the lighting, lens choice, focus-pulling and dynamic range of the camera and nothing more.
The whole "I got a 4K camera and I can bake-in a LUT so I'm a DP now" thing just gets me real fed-up.
@Andres Bonilla Network news may as well film in 240p to hide any truth of this world
obviously never worked for Netflix lol (i take your point though, and the chances of landing a lucrative Netflix deal are very small for us indies, if we're even aiming for that)
Would love to see you continue this series. You’ve always set the bar when it comes to thorough tests and informative videos without sacrificing entertainment or interest. 👏🏻
Did not expect to find you here :)
Moral of the story: invest in glass NOT cameras 😂 stoked to see more awesome cheap cinema cameras coming up!
In other words date your cameras, marry your lens 😊
@@HankMiner scandalous 😉
Bought a new old stock FS100 (Sony with same sensor as the F5) last year..
Went a bit nuts on (vintage) lenses. But the quality... :0
Ryan Michaels why invest in glass if sony’s slog never grades well?
@@HankMiner Date your gear, marry your skills 😊
I have no intention of buying this but still enjoyed the content :)
Omg MD fish!!
Crazy finding you here!!
Please do the series on these old cinema cameras. This one was so cool
😐Between £2-£9k used in the UK
Extremely disappointing, I was ready to buy one until I looked it up :(
And it's not much different in the USA. No idea how the uploader claims to have purchased this camera for $800. Clickbait I assume.
@@crimebodge7274 A Sony F3 is only usually around 800-1k on ebay.
@@crimebodge7274 www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PMW-F3L-Camcorder-with-4-4-4-RGB-option-CASE-AND-BATTERY-INCLUDED/254780463657?epid=113366523&hash=item3b52195a29:g:SpIAAOSwAu5fswaR found this for 1k easily within 5mins, is this the same camera?
LENS
More of this, please. I love the idea and originality around older Cine cameras that can be had for “cheap”.
I bought this camera when it was released 10 years ago along with a set of Angenieux Optimo DP zooms, 16-42 & 30-80. It replaced my Sony F900 and Canon Cine B4 mount lenses. The F3/Angenieux combination was used for many local commercials and corporate videos. At that time I was also an early adapter of off board recording. I paired the F3 with a Cinedeck recorder. Something 10 years ago was unheard of on professional productions. They didn’t understand that I was giving them 10bit 4:4:4 RGB in Prores. Something at that time was only possible on a $125,000.00 Panasonic D5 deck and no Prores. Today no one bats an eye at an off board recorder but then no one understood what an awesome product I was delivering by doing it that way. Sony made a wired remote “paintbox” that gave me control of all the menu functions of the camera. I would actually “paint” the look with the DP and burned it in for delivery, no post color correction was done to the footage. The F3 and the lenses are still in my inventory. The camera doesn’t get used any longer but the lenses do. There’s something to be said for investing in good glass instead of cameras I guess.
No baloney Sony. Good stuff. Enjoyed your video. Being from Detroit I can’t help but leave you with a line from a Bob Seger song “I thought to myself...shit I’ve known that for 10 years!”
Just so everyone knows, this camera DOES NOT GO FOR 800 DOLLARS. Try 1.5k to 4k even at times.
Jesse Paton Reminds me Mattias Burling reviews, he always shows cameras claiming he paid like 50% less that the average price everybody else in the world can find them lol
I bought my f3 in 2018 with a full cage for $900. I've seen them go as low as $495. Are you sure you're not looking at cameras that come with lenses?
Yes definitely. I think it's due to this video. Sadly. Gonna have to wait a minute.
goddamn clickbait
I would pay max 500$ for this camera. It's basically not that impressive
Edit: Sorry guys, the offer for footage was to Caleb specifically. That said, I'll see if I can find some of my old stuff and post before/after grading to my channel.
.
Logged in and was surprised to see my old workhorse being featured! A couple thoughts:
1) Recording internally I was competing against smaller DSLRs of the time that were far more agile. Recording externally, I was competing with RED. The name brand (clients thought it was best), and eventually the resolution increase.
2) If you really want to unlock the full range of the F3's colour, grab yourself a 4:4:4 recorder, use dual-SDI output, and watch your jaw hit the floor. If you want a couple files, let me know and I'll try digging them out of the archives.
I'd like to get some 444 footage by F3.
hey, id love to see some of the footage you got! Would you put it on your channel or send it to me!!! Thinking of my future B Cam beside my original bmpcc that has similar qualities
He would need to have the paid RGB444 upgrade though, right?
@@ErebosGR tbh I've found more RGB444-upgraded F3s for sale than non-upgraded ones haha (your mileage may vary though)
Please dude, give us some footage. That would be awesome to see.
This SONY F3 is a testament to great SUPER 35 engineering. I learned on a similar ENG camera (EX-1) and realized these cameras set a better standard (2K/1920/1080) for the modern era of image quality, by keeping things stable. 4K/8K just allow better high dynamic range capture -- but 2K keeps everything very efficient. Ideally, we have more tools than we actually need, due to excessive industry competition. Good video dude! 🎥🤔
not sure were you bought it but on ebay nothing less than 2k
Same thing I noticed. Since this and a lot more videos the price raised a lot and, personally, despite I love his videos, I hate these trend-like things where everyone is compulsively buying everything without a reason (I hope I'm assuming the worst). Probably he bought it when prices weren't this up, but it's really scary how it changed in 4 months, really scary.
@@nonameexpdng i thing they were never that cheap.
@@FrankValchiria I actually found some F3 on Ebay on sale for 800 or less, unfortunately I didn't have the money at the time but
if I had known that prices would rise as they had I'd have found a way to buy one of those.
@@nonameexpdng 800 was.a.good deal.
I wouldn't be surprised if people watched this video and suddenly decided these cameras were for them. The problem with being a successful TH-camr is that you may influence people to buy a lot of something and unintentionally jack up the prices. For example, Scotty Kilmer did this when he praised Toyota Celicas and vintage hunting jackets went up a great deal on eBay thanks to Paul Harrell's habit of pulling guns and ammo out of his pockets.
FINALLY someone to make a series about older cinema cameras and comparing them to newer ones! Cannot wait for the future reviews! Keep up the good work!!!
I've been using this camera for the last year as my introduction into owning my own 'big' camera. I've loved it. The colour, ease of grading slog1 and dynamic range is great. It just has a really nice look. Also, the 8bit 4:2:0 straight out of camera is awesome for most stuff, I ended up rarely using my external recorder. I thank my mentor time and time again for directing me towards a big practical beautiful camera rather than the new, impractical, hot kid on the block (BMPC) - he said "do you want to learn how to use a camera? Or just have nice specs". Beautiful image, practical camera, ease of grade trumps small form factor camera with 4k any day.... unless you're shooting for Netflix or the likes of course!
Well this video single-handedly increased the price of the F3 over ebay, there were several cameras at $800 now everything is over $1200
Just get a similar camera from the same time period and bob's your uncle.
for 1200 i'd rather get bmpcc 4k, or bmpcc (+metabones)
@@johnhumbug5199 Yes I see, but bread and butter comes from seminars, TV interviews, conventions and local spots which does not required the latest but requires XLRs Zooms and Presence. This camera fills the void quickly.
Who would pay max $1200 for this camera. 1080p is become obsolete now, most TVs and monitors are at leat 2K even smaryphones. Try to watch a 1080p video on a 4k tv. It may be worth $800 if the colors and dynamic range were out of this world at 1080p, but from the look of it, the image quality is pretty average and the low light capabilities are pretty bad. That's a big turn down.
@@astafzciba 1080p is essentially the same as 2k
This is one of the most entertaining videos I've seen on TH-cam in awhile. I love old technology, and I'm still blown away at how good it really is. We often forget how perfect it was when it came out. New technology sometimes shortens our memory. I look forward to checking out more of your videos. Kudos, sir.
this is the type of camera customer need to see you with when you are recording an event for them. They think the bigger, the better so they will pay you what you asked them for, unlike if you present your self to an event with the *α6400.* I had got questioned when doing event.
You could set up two cameras and claim the Sony was just a backup...
This is an interesting point.
That's a good point. There are times these cameras can be intimidating and intrusive. But sometimes it can work to your advantage. Try explaining the difference in resolution on that old PD-170 and an iphone and you might get a blank stare. lol
I'd argue it's a better camera for an event, too. Dedicated control buttons, internal NDs and being quite weighty mean for run and gun it is honestly in a league of its own. I shoot on both the F3 snd the A7S and I'd take an F3, barring low light, to an event any day.
YES! I Have owned this beautiful thing for years and shot hundreds of high profile projects on it. People are always asking if I used the Alexa, and are gobsmacked when I tell them about the little F3.
Above everything, the image quality and colour science is just so pleasing with the S LOG. It's unreal. It's also so well designed, economical on space, and tough. Get one!
I love the idea of filmmakers having access to cameras like this. Technology is no longer an excuse. Talent wins.
Thanks for using it. I designed the electric circuit and image quality adjustment of this camera. I was surprised at the low noise and good sensitivity of the image sensor.
You’ve gone too far this time!!! You can’t be “DSLR video shooter” and use cinema cameras. I accepted the mirrorless cameras, but this is a bridge I will not cross.
Just kidding, I thought that this was super interesting. It makes me wonder what overlooked configurations might be out there. It might be cool to do a series focused on finding the best value options at various price points. For instance, (all in) how would this compare to other configurations at the price point?
FILM CAMERA???
Whats wild is that the used price for the F3 has shot up to $1500. You're video/inflation probably helped raise the used stock. I want one now lol
The green and magenta banding can be "fixed" by increasing the saturation while recording then reducing before grading. I've been doing it for over a year and I haven't noticed and gamut clipping so it's definitely worth it. (Also fixes the blotchy skin tones)
thx for the tip
If anyone wants to see this camera in action, my two short films Time Oddity and Checkmate were filmed on this camera. Time Oddity was also nominated for cinematography in a film festival.
You touched my heart, I mostly prefer opting to buy a premium pro camera that others consider outdated. These pro models are trustworthy to last. They seem outdated, lest we forget that they were star performers when released.
Excellent! For someone just starting out, this is perfect. Add in an E-Image EG10A2 Tripod with GH10 Head, a wireless mic, a reflector board and you're ready to make movies.
Too bad it does not cost 800 dollars, and generally goes from 1.2k, all the way up to 4k.Cash. not beginner shit at all, video lies.
i would love to see that series you mentioned. love your channel, you are a youtube legend
You're too kind! Thank you JC!
@@dslrvideoshooter me too but i would like to see more of real footage like shooting in daylight to watch a diffrence in DR or Rollingshutter, anyway great video !
@@pawechekowski9186 Yes! More rolling shutter tests, PLEASE!!!!!!!!
I was/am looking to buy a Sony A7iii. While doing my research, other YT channels were making a good case for the a6500, so I checked it out.
I was almost all in, until they did a rolling shutter test.
What a great review on this camera! I wouldn't be surprised if they sell like hot cakes on eBay as a result of this. One thing I should point out that I don't think was mentioned that is pretty important to know about this camera,... There was an update firmware option would allow you to shoot this camera at 444 off the sensor. It wasn't a RAW image, you would ideally use the ProRes HQ Wrapper and Codec, however, it is 444. I do know that back in the day, that is how many of the larger commercial houses used this camera. Another note, this camera was used as a B-Camera to the famous Sony F5 and F55 all the time. Credits all over the place for that. And one last thing, my true inspiration behind this camera came from one shooter who used this camera like it was an extension of his body and he is Zach Zamboni. He was the director of photography and primary shooter on the Anthony Bourdain show. I don't know about you, but I used to love the watching these shows. I couldn't get over the low light, rich color, and dynamic range I was witnessing in the show. Come to find out later that Zach shot everything on SXS cards, So, it was all the internal 420 8bit codec. You got to hand it to the editor and colorist on that show, because that footage looked Amazing. He did however, use a Fuji 19-90mm Cabrio T2.9 which I think at the time was about $40K.
I would love it if you profiled the AJA Cion. Such a promising camera that got trounced because of Blackmagic announcing the Ursa Mini at half the cost. You can find them used for around $1200-$1500 now. So many negative quirks (lied about their dynamic range, no true LOG profile), but also so many positive features (wide range of codecs, global shutter, and output of 4K RAW to Atomos). For the price it was at when it came out it just wasn't good enough to compete with Blackmagic, but I wonder how good it is now that it's around the same price as a used C100 MKI
I Shot a feature film off of the Cion for free through their #TryCion Program. Needless to say, I was IMPRESSED with the Camera and the things we could do with it. We actually SAVE a bunch of shots with that Camera. Here's the trailer for it - th-cam.com/video/rvwro1BVo9g/w-d-xo.html
@@crosbyt123ify I wanted to take advantage of that so bad when it came out but I simply did not have the time or anything in mind to shoot with it. It's a shame, I feel like they could've evolved it a bit and made something better. When they announced it I remember it kind of shook the industry, and then Blackmagic showed up and everyone was just writing it off as a failure before it even came out.
@@crosbyt123ify Highlights are awful clipped. Looks pretty terrible imo.
@@Max-lk2ro It's all good. We didn't have a lot of money to purchase monitors and things like that. We shot this with whatever we had and days we had to made a feature film out of it. But I appreciate your comments and honestly. It means a lot.
CION's are still avail through Resellers via AJA at deep deep discounts, new in box.
I shot my first feature on the F3 back in 2014 and I can absolutely confirm. Absolutely amazing camera!
I love this. As a total beginner trying to get into filmmaking as a hobby, knowing what older but affordable cinema cameras are still worth buying is invaluable information. Please move forward with this series.
Also I’ve seen your Chinon Cinema Lens Set Video and I was wondering if you have any plans on doing another series on affordable cinema lenses, or photo lenses that work for cinema lenses.
*Was* affordable. Now that tens of thousands of aspiring filmmakers have seen this video... maybe not so much 🤣
don't even think about getting this one, really. any modern mirrorless camera beats it in many ways Caleb doesn't mention: weight, autofocus, lenses, compatibility etc.
@gxrsky, did you and I watch the same video? He specifically mentioned autofocus shortcomings and lens compatibility with adapters.
We got the used FS700 (with the 4K upgrade) and Atomos Shogun combo happening the past year and it's been awesome. Worked well with the existing FS7 and tag teamed probably 30+ productions, mostly construction / manufacturing showcases and the slomo was used to great effect. Paid for itself within a month or so. Thanks for the showcase on the F3. Now eyeing a used F3 as a studiocam.
the mounts on these old 32 mm CMOS is not the best solution, if you can, use original please !
Would love to see some hand-held action outside. Preferably at night.
What is the use case for that?
I mean, other than you being able to score internet points for finding the one thing you could criticize the camera for and therefore feeling vindicated for shelling out 1000s for the latest greatest gear that the TH-cam hypetrain sold you. 😉
It’ll prolly suck big time
@@MiaogisTeas or you know, that's how they use cameras and are curious to see how it would perform. Or maybe I'm wrong and everyone is as cynical as you assume.
Stabilization is not good on this cameras. Use Olympus, if you need stabilized footage in 5 axis. But colors and dynamic range is good. This is my todays video from Sony PMW-200, graded: th-cam.com/video/bdy2ldvQEyc/w-d-xo.html
@@Wabajak13 That was exactly what I was after. At $800 it's still in the 'starter' range of cameras so an amateur like me craving some special look to the footage would come charging in and create terrible content by using a device that wasn't meant to be used in that way.
I have one of these sitting in a box needing a repair, new battery and new charger. the reason we never bothered is because the SXS cards were so cost prohibitive. you've inspired us to get this beast cranking! thank you sooo much for this video caleb.
1. DSLR Video Shooter (still number one baby)
2. Gerald Undone
3. Potato Jet.
LOVE this kind of content! Really gives a good perspective on gear and how/what to buy. You should TOTALLY do one on the BlackMagic Cinema Camera (BMCC) 2.5K (the grey bricks)!!
It's basically a c100 mark Ii but Sony! Really cool camera, but I can't find it for 800 now, only about 1500. I think this video moved the market a bit! 😅
"$800" **includes an additional $200-400 in equipment to make it useable**
I learned with this camera at school. Very nice camera and a lot of fun playing with this one .
Wait! Your a “Blake’s 7” fan?!?!
You’ve gone up in my estimation considerably. :)
I use a 10 year old Canon C100 mark I. Love it!
I would to see you do a video on a Sony HDW Series camera which are part of Sony's CineAlta range but were produced in 1994, 26 years ago. They were some of the first HD camera's made and in my opinion still hold up today with custom gammas implemented which is incredible.
I have been looking forward to this video since you first mentioned it... it didn’t disappoint! What a beast of an older camera. Thanks Caleb.
CONGRATS ON 500K! YOU HAVE HELPED ALOT OF US PLAYBUTTON HOLDERS
You should have bought Sony fs700r: 4k 60fps/120fps/ 1080p 240fps 10bit 422 or DNG 12bit 444 RAW when connected to Atomos Shogun 4k Inferno. The price between F3 and FS700R is only several hundred dollars difference when buying used.
When I went to Film School, this was the "BIG" digital cinema camera our department invested in. I think we paid $16k and traded some stuff to get it used. We paired it mostly with old cine-modded Nikon glass. We loved the image quality on it, but we had to record externally to a Ki Pro external recorder to get the upgraded 10-Bit 4:4:4, and I remember that seeming like a big hassle at the time. By the time we got it, Magic Lantern RAW and the on-sale $500 BMPCC became the de facto choice for us.
In 2001 school i went to was using Super 8mm and Krasnogs16mm. We were splicing film by hand. Times have changed. Kids are lucky now.
I love the F3! I was a cameraman in a short film last year, and it has a lot of great things! Even though it's old, cinema cameras are just different ecosystems than dslr or mirrorless photography cameras with video capabilities
gave up my fs100, now I have gh4 and I am not going back. it was the same price. actually the gh4 used was 650. have fun
I bought a new old stock FS100 last year. I love that thing to bits!
We are talking PMW F3 not FS100 they are way different
Won't ever get this camera, but loved how informative and technical you were about this.
*tl;dr: only the SDI A/B ports can output 10-bit 4:2:2, also you can record 1080p60 externally (with the RGB444 upgrade).*
Are you plugging your SDI into the SDI A port? The SDI out and HDMI ports are limited to 8-bit 4:2:0 output, only the SDI A and B ports can output 10-bit 4:2:2 (up to 30p normally, up to 60p with the RGB444 upgrade) and 4:4:4 (with RGB444 upgrade).
I think it's also worth mentioning the differences between the firmware upgrade and the RGB444 upgrade.
- The firmware upgrade adds the SLog picture profile via a software update and can be applied to any F3.
- The "paid" RGB444 upgrade gives you 3G SDI via SDI A and B ports (so you can get 4:2:2 1080p60 through a single port or 4:4:4 1080p60 through two dual-link ports, not 100% sure about that second one), and obviously gives you 4:4:4 output.
It also gives you a slightly different SLog compared to the firmware upgrade (firmware upgrade version of SLog still works concurrently). It's pretty common to find RGB444 pre-installed for the same price or a little more.
So you *can* get 1080p60 out of the F3 through a single SDI cable as long as you get one with the RGB444 upgrade. I've personally got one kitted out with Element Technica Armour and a Blackmagic Video Assist (cheapest monitor/recorder for 1080p60 4:2:2 I think).
Without the RGB444 upgrade, I believe you can still get 1.5G dual link (rather than 3G dual link), so you could dual-link two 1080i60 fields to get 1080p60. But that would involve a rather pricey dual-link recorder which is pretty counter-intuitive.
This is spot on👍
@@DanielTroyer Cheers Daniel, your videos were actually what reminded me of the F3's existence, so I picked one up for myself earlier this year!
Among the best reviewers. Professional, to the point, all coming from a person who actually uses the equipment. Bravo.
Heck, I still use a Canon HV30 for killer cinematic shots. Having new tech is great, but the old is magical as well.
Yes
i, as a panasonic guy, would really lovr to see the AF100/AF101
in modern day standards, it doesn't seem all that special, but with the right glass i've seen it work wonders
and of course the Af-100 destroys the F3.. * :)
And with external recording!
Camera culture has the weirdest nerding depth about shit that 99% of people will never even notice.
The guitar community has the same affliction!
Ted Jones “do you hear how fat my neck humbucker sounds right now? Way better than my last Les Paul. Plus this one has coil splitting so it’s basically a strat whenever I want it to be.”
As someone who is just starting out, this information is invaluable, look forward to seeing more videos of this kind as I have yet 6 purchase a camera
i was waiting for you to make a video about the f3 haha
What camera do you use now?
@@djsalad7891 I believe he uses a BMPCC4K
My budget is somewhere between
0 - 300 - 500
Not sure though bro
0-3-5 man is everywhere
Very interesting. Very well done the editing. Clean voice. Thanks a lot!
The comparison is kind of pointless. I mean you put an external recorder on the cinema camera. And it is well known, that to get the most out of a sony mirrorless camera you don't shoot in slog 2.
Slog 2 flattens the picture so much and uses so little of the 8 bit color space that as soon as you stretch the image out again through luts, the limits of 8 bit become visible.
This is less a comparison of cameras and more a comparison of 8bit vs 10bit and different color profiles
"And it is well known" where did you get the info from? and which format would you prefere?
@@Max27653
Cine2 is a very popular profile that is not as flat but still retains great dynamic range. (And as a bonus you have a way lower minimum iso then with slog 2 or 3)
And it is well know by everybody who understand the limitations of 8bit and has in depth knowledge of the sony system. This video goes into depth about the different profiles, it is worth a watch and you will understand, why slog2 or 3 is not the ideal profile for sonys consumer mirrorless cameras, that only have 8bit color depth.
th-cam.com/video/9E8doNzDymo/w-d-xo.html
@@jakob.k_design What's your thoughts on PP4? All I know is that the overheating issues are bad on any camera from the a-series except (maybe) the a6600 which is a dealbreaker in itself. Doing an interview and telling people to hold that thought for 10 min while the camera has a snooze is a content disturbing disaster. Missing the ring part of a wedding etc. And shooting a doc where you can run the camera continuously covering an event, just to have the camera shutdown at the crucial moment of the scene nixes any colour conversation. F3 blows the 6400 out of the water in that regard - it's a tank and flawless in that regard. The a6600 is only camera worth buying in that series, AND only - in my case - because of the tiny form factor for incognito shooting where you do not want a ton of attention to get cinema-veritie direct cinema content. When content is key in low-profile situations, the low-light capable 6400 with its subpar 8bit 4.2.0 low data rate is what you want, and here slight magenta infused grays or other non-perfect visual aesthetics are not a large concern. And you can use Caleb's advice on how to help with that in his useful Sony colour issues vid. We need to think more about what we are going to use a particular camera for and what genre. Clearly, the A7S iii is the way to go but if budget is a consideration, for indies, you can get the a6600 at less than half the price (with an on-camera Beachtek mini-mixer). As far as colour, where form factor means nothing and you are not delivering on 4K, the F3 is by far the superior camera in RGB 444 Slog-1 mode to an external recorder - it's very Alexa like with skin-tones, creamy roll-off, and lovely colour science. What I would be interested in knowing is that if anyone has tried to up-res 444 from the F3 to 2 or 4K, shooting with sharp lenses; as I suspect the images would be unique from the pack and likely more film-analog like. Thanks Caleb for inspiring richer conversations to happen without the tech focus being the holy grail.
Awww. My baby! I bought a used F3 years ago and it was my A cam for years and served me super well. Eventually I upgraded to an FS5 but I still find myself doing all my indie filmmaking with this camera (FS5 for corporate but F3 for filmmaking). There's just something about that image quality you can't quite put your finger on. It has a big budget magical feel that the FS5/7 never quite managed. Such a dope image.
Please do a series on these old cinema cameras. Canon C100 vs. Rebels or xxD cameras.
That is no contest. I have 2 x c100 and it kicks butt even against my EOSR
@@paddy_cakes C100 mark I or II? I need one for weddings as my tripod camera. To replace my Mark IV.
ill take that any day
This is a great idea
You let the secret out of the bag! Been shooting a F3 for the last 4 months for all the reasons you state. Rock solid image and built in ND's. Also throw the footage in a ACES timeline and the footage really sings :)
I owned this camera for about four years and put about 3,500 hours on it. I kick myself now when I put that footage through Resolve Color Management and see the full potential of the sensor! My old footage never looked this good!
is the thought that the image and colour processing/sensor in general are "softer/warmer" or more cinematic which is more "traditionally" pleasing to the eye that makes the cinema cams so much better in your opinion? As opposed to the coldness of the newer sharper cameras? I don't know much about these things, but it seems like the people that do, like you, always lean towards cameras that have that softer/warmer side that is seemingly missing from the the more cold colour rigid digital sharpness that new cameras
This is particularly a Sony issue. The newer Canon cameras all have the warmer, more pleasing skin tone and overall warmer and more saturated colors. The highlights on this particular camera are really beautiful. The image is really comparable to the original black magic pocket. Softer and more filmic looking than the newer models.
I really hope you do this as a series. I learn so much from your videos. Thanks so much man.
I passed up the opportunity to buy an older cinema camera last year. The price seemed good but I wasn't sure how it would stack up to what audiences are used to seeing today. I probably don't shoot enough video to justify purchasing more cameras, though, so it's probably for the best :P
used this camera plenty of times for documentaries and reality TV. Great camera that still holds up well.
I've actually been looking at these used on eBay, been considering getting a camera like it. Torn between Sony and Panasonic offerings. This was exactly the type of video I wanted to see.
I would love to see a video on one of the Panasonic camcorders with interchangeable lenses.
I still use Panasonic's AF100 with Atmos Ninja and footage looks good. Just shoot for your look and do minimal grading. The features for usability rocks. I studied Cinematography in Film School so I approach it from an artistic foundation.
I'm also a fan of Panasonic cameras, would love to see a similar profile on one of those.
Where can I get it $800
I really like this type video. I've been searching the internet for other options like the one you show but having a hard time finding them. Please make more of these type videos. 1080 is usually sufficient for what I need but having those cinema features in an affordable package would be fabulous. Keep up the good work.
After used a Canon 7D DSLR，i never thought about use a video camera again。
Why?
@@Seslikitap_Ebook The low light performance and depth of field were insane compared to cameras at comparable price points 10 years ago.
I shoot on the Panasonic AF100 from time to time and love it. Having two XLR inputs built in is so clutch for streamlining productions. I often reach for the AF100 when I want to play into the "Lo-Fi" feeling it has. I'd love to see more on old digital cinema cameras.
Wow. $800. Amazing. 👍
Not anymore. Now theyre like 2,000$ on ebay lol
This is much more entertaining to me than the constant barrage of new camera talk! Great job!
Please don't keep making these videos, because after that prices are flying 😭😭
Super stoked to follow the series on older cinema cameras
I have a feeling that after this review, the price of these used cameras will double lol. Hope I'm wrong. Seems like an awesome buy. If I hadn't already invested in the BMPCC 4K and all the accessories, I'd probably have gone down this road.
This is great! Yes, more please. Looking forward to the FS700R video!
Great video.
Hello I love your tech videos you the best
I started taking a field video production class, and hadn't really cared for camcorders... until now. They're so tactile and fun to shoot with!
I found a Way to fix the problem with the Slog 2. the color shifting is not happening since then.
make a video!
Hi can you share? I’m struggling to get s-log luts for postproduction
Thanks!
@@joerivandenberghe7193 yes for sure my friend. Hit me up on instagram @aifotos.
Bravo. 👏 If your story is terrible, no one cares which gear you shot on. If your story is amazing, no one cares what gear you shot on. Story 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Love this review.
This camera was used to shoot the award winning film “ Safety Not Guaranteed”.
They also didn't even use S-LOG. Shot with a low contrast baked in profile in 12 bit.
Bought one earlier in March with the RGB 444 upgrade, and I haven't look back. It's just an amazing camera with a beautiful image. Can't wait to watch your future old cameras review!
Please do more on fs700r~~
I'd love to see that as well
Yes please its the only camera ive kept. Still great Picture. There still are many thousands of them out in the wild.
I find when you use Canon lenses on the F3 the colours and skin tones are incredibly attractive. I shot an entire feature doc called Bluefin with this camera and a Sound Designs external recorder using both Nikon/Canon with spectacularly pleasing results. We also used the FS700R/Q7+ combo with a custom Ewa Marine underwater bag to continuously (no buffering) capture giant and fast-moving tuna at 240 fps in HD using a super sharp and cheap Sony 10-18 mm lens. We then released the film as an up-res'd 2K DCP video print. Using 2K projection, it played on full-sized theatrical screens at over 20 international film festivals in front of hundreds of people per screening, won awards, and it looked GREAT - we had tons of feedback about how beautiful and visual the film looked - using these "old" cameras which can be bought for a song now. Seriously a re-think is needed unless you are under contract with Netflix (how likely?) or must deliver at least 4K ProRes Raw. In any case, FS700R can deliver wonderfully looking 4K ProRes Raw with an Atomos, while the Convergent Design Q7+ can deliver superior but large "uncompressed" 12bit Cinema DNG files if you need to wrangle that. If you don't enjoy to get fleeced by the marketing hype of new offerings and "specs," both of these older cameras offer filmmakers amazing and exciting value, and again for less than half the cost of a Sony A7S iii for BOTH cameras. I hear you Caleb, and thanks for this video inspiring long overdue considerations - the only guy creating these valuable conversations! I am still using both these cameras while others shell out thousands chasing the latest thing - I will be adding a Sony A7S iii and a6600 (and possibly a Sigma FP) to my camera collection (for low profile shoots). But I am not selling (giving away) my F3 and FS700R cameras - no way! It's really all about having the right camera for the situation, as much you would choose to buy expensive lenses to expand your range of creative options. See my doc here (for free). See if you can spot which shots are the F700R and which ones were captured with the F3: tubitv.com/movies/449113/bluefin
I'll stick w/ my a6400, never had any of the issues you show. Cheers.
Hi Everyone, The Thumbnail Said it All... I'm writing this comment before I even watch the video... I bought the a used Sony PMW-F3 from 3 Film Majors in New York City about 6 years ago. They were each pretty smart to invest together to then later sell it used when they were done with their final film making projects. I was stoked, I had my eye on F3 for years and finally this was my entry point into owning a CineAlta Sensor. I mean it, I pixel peeped for years, followed every music video, tv commercial and film that used the legendary Sony F3. It had its quarks with their FZ-Mount Adapter however, it came with the PL and I figured I'd eventually get around to picking up glass that was PL Mount... pretty much an industry standard. Needless to say, I managed muster up enough cash to purchase an Optiplex / Canon adapter that communicates with the Sony and allows you to adjust your F-Stop on the Canon Lenses. This was huge for me because at the time all I had was Canon Glass. When I bought it from the students, it came with the Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 which allowed me to capture 422 to ProRes HQ. It was nice for shooting greenscreen. At the time, there was only one Sony Lut, it was and still is called Sony SLog, First Gen, I guess. Well, that added a boat load of additional stops. That in itself was amazing. My friends couldn't wrap there heads around any of it... Until, I would shoot for them, say a small commercial,... once the D-Log was applied they'd loose they're minds with how much push and pull they had in post for Color Correcting and Grading. I'm saving the best for last,... Here it goes, My Wife, Pretty much uses this camera on a daily basis. She has her own TH-cam Channel where she does tutorials on pattern drafting and pattern fitting for clothing. She shoots edits and uploads all her self. She uses the F3 as an over the shoulder shot. She leaves it in One Position and will then Crop/Zoom in post. I'm not lying when I say this, She ZOOMS 400% IN POST and it still holds more detail then any other camera I've tried doing that with. The F3 has a Mojo all its own. Its a one of kind, and I will never, ever, ever, part with it. If any of you are interested in seeing what my wife does with the camera you can find her here. th-cam.com/channels/A-bf9J0r-9lbm70MEcq0Gw.html
There's a French saying that goes : in the old jars, you simmer the best soups.
Remarkably good review. Very tough to match a review of this quality. Even your voice tone is downright soothing! Great editing. Great choices of what to dig into.
These cameras have always been "nicer to work with than the stinking mirrorless cameras which just look terrible". TH-camrs like you decided for yourselves that DSLR and mirrorless were superior. Please don't start a series on Cine, ENG or camcorders; that'll just be rude MR DSLR Video Shooter.
Have you considered taking a look at the F5? It's around the same price now and looks promising.
Seems like a waste of time & money with all the extra ad ons needed for 10 year old camera ...
Agreed. External recorder + sd adapters + lens adapters for only 1080p 24fps 🤷♂️
I'd love to see more stuff like this.
It seems like if you're run and gun, modern mirrorless cameras are good because they are light weight. 4k is good because you can crop or stabilize shots when you need to.
But, if you are actually interested in making things where you can plan your shots, things like bit depth make more sense to prioritize than resolution.
Canon can release a camera with an 8k sensor and it's great for them because they already want big sensors for their photo cameras, and 8k sounds more impressive than 4:4:4 to most people.
I'm gonna start a channel called "it's old but still work" showing old but still usefull tech.
Dooo iiittt ! Subbed to your current channel as a reminder to myself.
Man I'm so broke but I'm for sure gonna be on the look out for one of these used for my skate videos. Thank you so much for always putting out so much quality info! Truly so helpful.
I really want this. And I don't care that there is no 4K. I watched some footages and I love it! She has her own charm.
Hey Caleb, there is a typo in the description: Sony PWM F3 instead of *Sony PMW F3*
This old camera series will be great!!!
Recognized the F3 from the thumbnail, I remember using it back in 2014 with some basic lenses and was amazed just by looking at the ungraded footage in premiere.
Ive always told kids getting into film making that the latest is not necessarily the best. I almost bought the PWM F3, but the cost of the cards was off putting. Ended up with a GH4 with V Log. Love it. Funny thing is, three films we sold to Redbox were shot with canon DSLRS and a Samsung camera phone!
To fix the colour noise in S-Log boost the saturation in the picture profile, that way it records with the most colour information possible, you can always tone it back in post if its too much! I've found that works pretty well!
Would love to see the Sony Fs700/100, Panasonic AF100, and Canon C100 Mk1 compared to some modern DSLR/Mirrorless cameras