Pistol Grip - How much does support hand placement affect muzzle climb?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ค. 2024
- There are a lot of handgun grip videos on the net - this one is looking at the effect of your support hand placement on the frame as it relates to recoil or muzzle climb.
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Look at your watch in the slo-mo shots - with the "higher" grip, your watch shakes a lot less, indicating your wrist is indeed "locked in" and the recoil is being transferred further back into your shoulders. Otherwise, recoil is working to can't your wrist back, yielding higher muzzle rise. Neat!
yeah with taht gun it seemed to make a difference.
"If it feels good, it's probably wrong" - Jerry Miculek
An important aspect of the high grip is how hard it cants your wrist. If most of the force on the gun from your support hand is in the base/meat of your thumb, getting that part of your hand as close to the center of your wrist as possible will reduce the amount of torque your hand exerts on your wrist, which means your wrist will move less.
High on the gun reduces the torque of the gun on your hand, super canted wrist reduces the torque of your hand on your wrist. Unfortunately, it's super uncomfortable to cant your wrist as far as it can go, and then squeeze the gun nearly as hard as you can 😁
This actually applies to every joint in your body, but gets less important the further away from the gun you get. But I've heard Vogel say (in passing) that he even cares about where the gun is in respect to his shoulders, to reduce the tiny bit of climb that happens there.
I'm also impressed that as much as you shit on the high grip, you believed the results. Most people don't want to learn - they want to be right!
I wonder if the more neutral grip works better on pistols where you can get your support hand "behind" something, like grip panels or even the backstrap. I only have thin grips on an SP-01 sooo I can't get my hand behind anything.
Maybe you'll have to try this on a fat CZ
I fully agree with you, with just one denial. Higher grip is super uncomfortable just until you use it for trainig and shooting in routine fashion 🤷♂️ For me, it's the standard grip from my very first pistol beginnings and I feel it absolutely comfortable and normal... It's about the brain and muscle memory. I don't feel acceptable gun control with neutral position. Just my opinion 🤷♂️😉😁
The Mantis is very useful for measuring the differences. Good work!
Awesome comparison, love how you break everything down and test scientifically. Talking like you know is one thing and proving is another!
Great analysis. Thanks for posting.
First of all thanks for putting this video so well together. I still think that that overly forceful grip shortly of shaking...who wants to go through a match like that? And over the years it will take a toll on your body. When you go through all the tiny bits of the late great Ron Avery and his technique he calls "force vector", he shoots one handed with 2 fingers without any muzzle climb and his ideas about more traction in the hands by keeping certain areas without tension to fit the form of the grip rather than creating two hard objects pressed together makes more sense. And with your in depth grip video, you know that others on top do not need that much force, they use way less grip strength. My hypotheses is that he chose that strong grip cause it mitigates a lot of possible mistakes so that he'll still have good enough results when he's messing up a little.I need my hands to work as well and there are enough athletes with 5-15 hand surgeries out there. I won't join the club. I wonder that being so close to shaking from much applied grip strength if the hands are creating a stronger tremor after the recoil to gain back control. Is there a rule to stop people from adding further grip attachments in the open division?
Btw...Get a thousand high quality stickers of your logo and fans will buy them to put on their gun cases or safes and cars.
Thanks for the knowledge an have a Happy independence Day , Humble Marksman !!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you very much for an informative topic, I really enjoy your content.
Hi, I saw some time ago your video about recoil control interviews and it was so much interesting for me. I watched all the Kwansik videos a lot of times and always i undestand a bit more.
So, here in Argentina it's difficult to go shooting for Covid but i made an experiment last week and works for me. I had the problem of the muzzle bumping during recoil no mater what i do. I realize that the problem was that in my relax position with the arm in position as shooting one handed, (or two handed), the front deltoid muscle contracts and should'n be contracted. Without a gun i made exactly the same and the muscle contracts too, so i made some exersices "to learn to relax" this muscle. Last week i went shooting and the results was totaly diferents, the gun didn't bump anymore!. I will upload the "before and after video" in my channel. Thanks for the video!
Great experiment! Thanks for this.
Thank you! Cheers!
One thing I’ve been testing is reduction in grip tension (in the hands) with locking the wrist and elbow and keeping the shoulders as neutral as possible. So far I’ve found that it appears that much less grip force is actually needed and the joint locking plays a critical role. I’d check out Hwansik’s video on recoil management, it’s pretty interesting.
cranked the likes over 1K! very intricate. love the slo mo
I changed my grip a few years ago after watching Vogel on Taran's channel. Its obnoxiously aggressive. He rolls his support wrist forward and torques into it. I have large hands and found that I could use that grip with my thumb on the picitanny rail, specifically on the weapon light. It was a game changer.
Always something to learn
yup! Working on it still.
Very cool video, well done
Thanks man
thanks for the video.
👍I use the 'aggressive' grip now myself. Adopted from active Self Protection's grip video.
Basically as he explains it, support pinky should fit in between primary pinky and ring finger...support thumb forward in normal thumbs forward grip.
Glad to see a comparison where this grip seems to improve typical thumbs forward grip. At very least it doesn't hurt
Not to speak Ill of a cornerstone of the YT gun community - but I would be careful taking technical advice from him - he shot a very poor IDPA classifier on his 2nd channel recently - his technique is still developing - but he does take a lot of classes
TheHumbleMarksman hmm fair enough. He's just were I heard a full explanation of the high aggressive grip you were discussing.
I like to take input from various ppl like ASP, yourself, war poet, even more casuals like Big Johnson. Try the recommendations I find interesting or insightful, and see how they work for me.
For example, your video while back about grip on polymer pistol, particularly the pressure from each hand was intriguing and helpful. 👍
Great video!!
It works....plain and simple!
All I have ever wanted was your mark on my face.... 🤣
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing the information.
😁 it'd make a great tattoo
I don't know if it really matters much (though it's something I've heard many times by different folks) but when showing your "neutral grip" (around 8:15), there is a slight gap between your support hand and the thumb of your 'strong' hand. As I understand it, any gap at that point in the grip is space for energy to 'escape', resulting in slightly more recoil.
That gap is not apparent when you adopted the higher grip.
Great video and excellent explanations. I also agree that it may depend to an extent on the particular shooter and firearm.
Nice work. Face tattoos are the best.
Great video...
Thanks
Very few people I know shoot as flat as Jared Clawson (tier1 owner) "t1cs" on Instagram... I've been watching him for years and he simply says high and tight. So that's how I started to shoot, once I truly grasped that and how high he really meant and really understood locking your wrists... I started to shoot flat too, go figure. One Tip I realized is when people say they are high... they can always get higher. Awesome video as always btw.
I’m a novice shooter, I mean like 200 round in 9mm, and some 500 on 22lr before that. I’m trying to build my technique as right as I can before developing some bad habit, so I was wandering: what do you exactly mean by “locking your wrists”? I’ve heard it a lot but I can’t exactly figure out what does it mean...
@@stevailo Well a lot of times people think to lock your wrist and grip are the same thing, but honestly, they are two separate functions. You can have a crazy vice grip and a completely floppy wrist and vice versa. For me personally, a lighter medium pressure high grip on the gun, great stance, and completely locked wrists work well for me. A great test to shake someone's hand with a firm but not hard grip and try to have them bend your wrist up and down randomly (Both hands). If you have a good stance and your wrist doesn't bend what so ever its hard not to be able to control most small calibers.
KingDOM Collective I’ll definitely try and work on that, thanks!
@@stevailo No problem, anytime.
I've been working on the wedge hold lately. It seems to work for me so far.
I fully advocate ones total ability to be as high as possible, also on the grip of the pistol. Joking aside when I use the higher support hand I press down slightly on the small ledge just forward of the takedown lever but not so much as to impede slide movement.
Turns out I have already have a Mantis X, and so should you, but so far only used it for dry fire practise. Gives me an idea to take it out on this weekend's match. As for the face tat, well, no gonna pass.
I'm beginning to doubt your commitment.
Interesting... I hope you play with that some more and shoot us some more video thank you.
Enjoy your videos a lot! What is that on the bottom of your slide? Wondering if it is a camera?
Great vid! Question - what irons are you running with the SRO? They look like Dawson Precision blacked out.
I switched to the high grip awhile back. I feel like I am able to apply more pressure on the grip with less effort.
My defense handguns are also subcompacts where the smallest grip is two fingers with a flat floor plate. Shooting with a high grip allows me to use all support hand fingers and, like I mentioned above, I feel I am able to apply more pressure than a neutral grip. Since subcompacts are my carry guns, I shoot all other guns the same with a high grip. It makes more sense to me so I don't have to practice two or more grip styles.
Downsides: on some guns I end up either preventing the slide from locking back when empty or, with the XD-M Elite, I cause the slide to lock open with rounds still in the magazine. I think I'm going to have to change my grip to be lower.
I was taught to get as "high", or tilted forward, as possible, and really press back on the bottom of the grip to hold the muzzle down while pressing forward and up with the other hand. Really stressed getting my elbow up and out. I was being taught on a Glock 19, which has a more forward grip angle also. Seemed like he was never satisfied with how exaggerated it got. But, it really transformed my accuracy and consistency. All in one lesson.
Hey man. Found ya after hearing you on that podcast about ghosts. I wonder if the high canted wrist benefits could be a result of the support hand pinky levering against the bottom of the grip, rather than a result of the actual wrist/thumb positioning. Good stuff!
for me the pinky isn't quite as low as a more neutral grip. Tough to say.
Would be interesting to see the recoil data if you tried the Eric G/Yong Lee finger-over-trigger-guard grip!
I tried to do it - initial testing with finger on guard technique was no change from the other - I'm going to attempt it again.
Me: "So how do I get good at recoil control?"
HM: "You gotta get real high."
Me: *Starts smoking crack
In the comparison, your support side index finger comes off the trigger guard which means the gun is moving in your hand. I'm sure you'll see a lot less movement once you nail that down.
Like you mentioned, I think people with small(er) hands will have a hard time holding onto the gun with a high grip. 100% contact > reduced muzzle flip.
Awesome
Dude i fucking love your videos.
Exactly the video I was looking for. I'm always looking for ways to improve my grip and was considering a mantis x to experiment. I am glad I can see someone else that is also willing to try different grip methods and display the results.
I appreciate it a lot!
Cheers!
Oh my, yes, gotta have the face tattoo’ed. 😎
the better way to check it is using high speed video. (the interval time is different for two grip)
Hey mate, my .02 from the peanut gallery. I'd imagine the high grip is similar to a C clamp grip in a carbine. But will wait for the tactical bro's to chime in.
It gave me tendinitis
Well it looks to me like the normal grip tracks much better.👍🇺🇸
It does - I abandoned the higher grip
@@TheHumbleMarksman More natural is usually better...now if I can just find a good tat artist😂
hey, i like the analytical approach. well done. if the tools are available, why not use them! please tell Mantis to show the shot screen for the last 25 shots! they will listen to you, not me!
Seemed like the nose of the gun was angled more downward with the higher grip. Maybe maybe not! I enjoy the testing
Follow up shooting - the gun behaves better under speed - I am starting to understand the nuances of the grip. It’s a keeper
Oh and I'll wait till Halloween to get your tattoo 🤣
What recoil spring did you have in this? That thing was dipping like crazy!
Can you try this out on the new LTT RDO? It would be interesting to see the results on a different gun that's a more normal grip angle.
Based on how the frame/slide work out you can’t really get this grip on a 92
Off to get my face tattoo. 😂👍🏻
Very interesting. I think there are so many variables, like you said, tension, grip strength, etc. etc. I can't understand any of the numbers, but the main takeaway is you have muscley forearms. Hubba hubba. Do you sell those shirts?
Jonathan Frost - Yes he does, get some.👍
I shoot bob Vogel’s high grip style, my accuracy got much better.
Same
it makes a difference to stabilize the gun in your hand for sure.
Do you push out with both arms? Or do you push main arm and pull with support arm?
EVERYONE: Please go watch Yong Lee’s video titled “Pistol Grip Technique (Finger Over Trigger Guard). It’s probably less than 5 min long, and in it he focuses less on the technique he named the video after, and more on the critical role that the support hand and joint manipulation play in mitigating muzzle flip while shooting at speed. Near the end of the video he demonstrates this by removing his entire dominant hand from the pistol (except for his trigger finger, of course) and then proceeds to fire 5 or 6 shots while controlling the pistol’s recoil better than 90% of the people I see at the range are able to do with both hands death gripping the gun. It’s really an amazing demonstration that I think everyone who is serious about their pistol shooting would benefit tremendously from watching.
Yong Lee is amazing
Rapid-fire demands your best grip if you expect to put rounds on target. So it's a HiGrip that wins
Some good testing as very interesting....Something to think about and adjust maybe....Good job....Face tatto....LOL....Good stuff....
This isn't what I learned from Instructor Earl...
Hello there, fellow man of culture.
Lol
I take this video as being geared toward the competitive crowd.
In regards to the various grip specifics i ," as a combat grip" thumbs down proponet would be interested to see some sort of evaluation of thumbs forward as opposed to thumbs down in combat situations such as weapons retention .
Foe example one could simulate a gun grab while the shooter is thumbs foreward then the same with thumbs down.
In the one event wherein i had to use my weapon in defense i dont even think i was securly holding the pistol. I could not tell you how i was grasping the damn thing.
That was my experience as a guy who had tons of training in an official capacity but only one scenario in which i needed a deadly weapon.
The dudes teaching operator school for delta are teaching thumbs forward now. The dudes teaching SF are teaching thumbs forward.
Another variable to play with is left index finger over trigger guard or not... The left finger especially on a square trigger guard can be used as a far forward hook to hold down the muzzle and produce faster returns to zero.
I will do a follow up video on that - I don’t do it here because I use WML and I don’t want two different grips
TheHumbleMarksman Ur the best!... when I first tried it I was surprised... shot 2 groups one with finger one without. Not rushing but breaking the shot as soon as the sight picture was good. The groups looked identical... but... with the finger forward I completed sending the shots to create an equivalent group in substantially less time. The index finger on trigger guard kind of simulates the benefits of a left thumb rest and keeps the hand high and forward. Its not for everyone but everyone should at least try it to find out if its potentially a good fit for them IMHO.
I find the finger deflects the straight up and down path for me and slows me . I'm sure with practice it can be ironed out.
@@blantant Hi, Yes that seems to be a common problem for most people with the finger forward grip. It’s best to try to make the standard grip work as it is usually the right choice for the majority of folks. Also the standard grip forces the wrist to crank forward more which is beneficial. My hands look like those creepy alien face huggers so long reach triggers and finger forward seems to accommodate my long finger ergonomics.
@TheHumbleMarksman
What's your assessment 2 years later?
I'm trying to move up but not forward atm.
I gave myself tendinitis going high on the grip- I went back to neutral and accepted the performance loss for training volume
I can see this working better with CZ 75 style guns as their frames are larger compared to the slide.
Yeah but lots of controls in the way with safety and slide stop
Thanks for the video! This one has me inspired to take a more scientific approach to my hand position, as I am aware that the #1 challenge for me to get to the next level is grip. Because I work with my hands all day (installing tile), my tendons are often inflamed and I can only get about 65lbs max grip from my strong hand. I have recently started doing PT and getting regular massage in order to improve my strength, but am also thinking that technique refinement might matter more for me than for those with stronger grip.
I appreciate your disclaimer at the end and would be curious to hear your thoughts on the grip style of Lena Michlek (specifically when she is shooting the X5)? I have noticed that she (and sometimes Jerry) will wrap their index finger of their support hand around the trigger guard and appear to pull the frame back in to their strong hand. Neither of them talk about it in their videos, but I would imagine it is superior?
Yong Lee does it too - it can certainly work and is more comfortable to get high with - I'm doing a follow up video on this testing this very technique.
Lena recently talked about it in depth in an interview at shot show. Probably the best explanation of grip technique I’ve seen. I think you can watch it the Concealed Carry TH-cam channel.
I found it for you. It’s like half way through I think. th-cam.com/video/XdYtCSdRhM8/w-d-xo.html
@@96stealth thanks so much for the link, I appreciate it!
Yeah. I can’t seem to get much grip pressure at all with that style. 🤷♂️
Admittedly, I have a weak left elbow so maybe this is particular to me, but when I do the exaggerated grip I find that my left arm is a slightly shorter radius to the gun than my right and doesn’t allow a balanced presentation. Interesting observations from you though. Thanks much.
Interesting.
Can you explain the big difference in the Mantis graphs? The high grip had better numbers but the graph was all over the place.
It tracks how it moves in recoil- I am used to my grip and I have tuned it for the sight to return to zero- the altered grip I haven’t figured out yet to tame dot movement yet. I am getting there
Ok, I’ll get the tattoo
I’ve found the same to be true for me. But I’ve yet to switch because the Vogel style puts more strain on my wrist and hand that I’m good with. Plus, it seems to be slower and more meticulous to build for me. 🤷♂️
Training with it a few days - it is more painful - I probably won’t do it on a go forward
TheHumbleMarksman I hear ya. 👍
TheHumbleMarksman It’s my understanding that Vogel has like 300lb grip strength in each hand - that may factor in here lol
@@gtdfirearmsllc4759 I have fairly weak strength and somehow Vogel's grip worked extremely well with my hand. It just feels like a very efficient way to force down the muzzle, but it definitely takes some practice to become natural.
@@IR-xy3ij Good deal. Glad it’s working for you.
I finally got to train with him back in September, and I picked up on some nuances that helped me better understand his grip structure. Still haven’t made it work for me, but yeah. I find a more “neutral” approach (kinda like Enos) to be working best for me right now.
What do you think of Paul Sharp’s recoil management technique? I have never seen someone shoot a handgun flatter than him.
Which video?
Check out John Lovel technique. Works really well. Plus it’s simple although it’s also in how often you practice.
TheHumbleMarksman
th-cam.com/video/-Xs-u_d3x7E/w-d-xo.html
What item do you have on rail below the barrel?? Is that a "weight"?? If so who makes it???
Mantis X10 elite - the recoil meter
Crap I was working on my interpretive dance moves....now I got to get a dang tat😂👍🇺🇸
otherwise I won't know you're sincere.
@@TheHumbleMarksman 😂
Controlled pairs vs. double taps? How come?
You should put your support index across the front of the trigger guard.
Nah.
@@TheHumbleMarksman why come? I did a little pointing with the high grip and my finger and its the most rock solid I've ever felt holding a pistol. Thanks for showing this, I didn't even think to cant my wrist like that.
@@alastor8091 it's a valid technique - some high level dudes do it - doesn't work if you're shooting with a weapon mounted light. I DO do it on small baby guns like P365s if trying to hold it flat. It works great on higher bore axis guns.
I shoot so many guns I'm not looking for a "gun specific" grip.
Speaking of logo and shirts where is ur store I want to buy some
the-humble-marksman.creator-spring.com
I actually tried wrap my index finger on support hand around the trigger guard
Yong Lee does that so he can get higher - I don’t because i use WMLs on some
Face tattoo.... got it
When I put my thumb up that high, I can no longer put the web of my hand deep into the top of the pistol grip. Is that ok?
yeah - I don't love this grip - it gave me shooters elbow.
3 yrs later, did you changed your grip? would you say its different now vs then?
It absolutely is. The Vogel grip gave me tendonitis - it works - but I couldn't train at the intensity I wanted to with it.
@@TheHumbleMarksman oh wow, thanks for coming back so fast! Im just starting out and all the "grip" talk is quite confusing I must say....
Is this just a “glock grip” or has it some validity for Shadow 2s too?
I will try it on my 75B as well but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work
TheHumbleMarksman I’ll definitely try that too, thanks for the answer and the info
Watch any Jerry Michulek video, he talks about high on the gun and wrists locked. That being said, not easy for me either
If you get a chance please try the different grips with a compensated pistol. I think the difference will be much less as you are using gas to mitigate muzzle flip. An aggressive (high) grip puts much of the recoil impulse into the wrist joints - I know relatively young IPSC shooters who shoot 40k rounds per year in carry optics with wrist and elbow joint problems. Open not so much.
Grip is really personal thing , boils down to hand size , posture , gun.... don't think there's one size fits all answer.
The point of the video wasn’t necessarily “do it this way” but “hey how does this affect how the gun behaves
@@TheHumbleMarksman I know :)
Can you tell us the ear muffs you're wearing??
Howard Leight impact sport with valholl gel cups
You could use a lighter recoil spring which would reduce the nose-dive during recoil. Lots of things come into play. Not just grip.
Milled slide or do you have a plate?
C+H plate
Now do finger over trigger guard. Research proper technique before you try. It’s not just simply resting your finger on the guard. I’ve done slow mo vids and get less muzzle flip. I will eventually be getting a mantis to confirm, but for now I just use slow mo video. Seems you were getting more unwanted bounce with the high grip. I would rather have less bounce. Good vid!
Noticed also the space on your back thumb , if you lay it flat against your other thumb you eliminate that gap . That small gap will move the gun around also
"To all my subs, I'm going to need you to get face tattoos"
me: "Ok, so I'ma head out now..." (unsubscribes, but not really!)
I mean, who doesn't want a Mr. Peanut Monopoly Man with a gat tattoo on their face, right?
Thumbs up if The Hangover 'trilogy' is your favorite movie series!
(/kek)
More importantly - How much does finger placement affect the function of the slide? If you cannot control the recoil then grip the pistol tighter.
It doesn’t - I am not really making contact
Great vid. Glad you didn't disprove the laws of physics. The world is messed up enough already. Whew!
It’s not really physics if you think about it - the most leverage is lowest down on the grip and moving your support hand higher gives up leverage - seems to be locking out your wrist more advantageously
@@TheHumbleMarksman True. I was thinking about the center of mass being moved up closer to the bore axis thereby absorbing more of the slide's energy...the source of the momentum to begin with.
Moving it up destabilizes the recoil arc - forcing you to turn out your elbow to counteract it. It’s not intuitive to balance it to have a smooth return to zero
Welp.... (gets off couch) time to get a face tat....
This is the way
@@TheHumbleMarksman this is the way intensifies
I personally shoot much better with the more mutual grip.
Im I the only one who finds comfort with support index finger on the front of trigger guard??
based on the other comments on this video - there are a lot of people who share that opinion
Do you not get glock knuckle ? Everytime I shoot Glocks my hands are destroyed
That's because there is a seam where the plastic is melted together. I use to take some sandpaper to the undercut when I shot glocks. It made the problem go away.
you naturallyy shot faster on the proper grip because your sights were there hmmmmmmm look at the cadence between the two
I have the grip rpessures figured out so the sights track perfectly vertically with my natural grip - I'm getting there on the higher grip - and it does come back faster.
I don't see it. You looked more accurate with your regular grip. The Mantis graph on the High grip looks like brain wave from schizophrenic patient. Screw it, do what feels good. That's been working for sixty years.
Of course I don't shoots comps, and don't care enough. Good vid though.
Your sample is very small to draw any conclusions.
So scientific
Your grip is no-no.
*every known scientific data point on body mechanics and modern shooting dictates a high "exaggerated" grip is beneficial* "nah it's a meme bro." -random nobody youtuber
Except most of the best shooters in the world don’t use it. But I am sure you know better.
@@TheHumbleMarksman and one handed Olympic bullseye shooters are more accurate than either of us will ever be. Doesnt mean It's practical outside of that competition environment, and I'm sure by "best shooters" you're referring to some retarded form of competition.
therealdestructicus guess who trains all your Timmy man crushes to shoot pistols? Hint : they aren’t inventing it. In 5 years you will catch up bro 👍
therealdestructicus Dude. I hope you’re just trolling here 🤦♂️
I don't agree with your grip. I tried your gun grip and the gun almost flew out of my hands. I had to make an adjustment with my hands. I shoot left handed. So my right thumb crosses over my left thumb. This creates a more stable and stronger grip. The gun does not feel like it's going to jump out of my hands. I've used this grip for 30 years and it always worked.
that's a great grip for a revolver. Semi autos - not as much.