Oh man, you done it now, you said 5.56 was lacking power AND you picked a shotgun. As Gandalf once said "Things are now in motion that cannot be undone" 😂
Thank you. I have been pro shotgun forever precisely for the reasons you state here. Someone who can run a shotgun properly can be brutally successful in it's application.
Hard to beat ole reliable, shotgun is so underrated even though it's been a proven manstopper since they were invented, theres a reason it's still around. Been my number one choice since I was a kid.
My friend just killed 2 intruders with his AR. That's the best home defense weapon. There were 4 of them and even though he took one to the gut, he killed 2 of them and survived to tell the tail. Last week in Marion County, FL.
Realistically, in a home defense situation, I'd probably reflexively go for my cc handgun, since It's more readily available and I have more trigger time with it. This would probably give my wife time to go for her carbine. LOL
Ole mossberg been defending, protecting, and feeding alot of people a long time including me good sir. Probably the most effective tool a man could ever own.
Dragon Slayer Except the thing is, I’ve never seen anyone really “demonized” for using an AR15 for home defense because usually bigger media groups try to pretend that doesn’t exist.
I guess by definition I'm a "Professional" with all three and I have to say with the right set up the shotgun is the superior home defense tool. The only problem I have with it is the draw and length of the shotgun in close quarters. EXCELLENT video John! 👍👍👍👍👍
Think maybe an SBS or Shockwave is what you are looking for. If you put Mini Shells in, you don’t have to be so concerned with over penetration plus you gain a couple rounds in the gun. Still makes a huge fire ball and loud bang, for your shock and awe;) you better get out my HOUSE, lol
@@CatMan_7 it'd make you think that the mini shells would penetrate less because they are smaller but they in fact penetrate almost as much as regular buckshot. You can find a test here on TH-cam with ballistics gel and sheetrock.
Honestly, I expected more from John here. This video is about home defense, not combat, so use home defense rounds, not combat rounds. The constant “soldiers in war said it’s like an ice pick blah blah blah” is tiresome. We are good family friends with a former SWAT captain for Houston PD. Naturally, I’ve talked to him about the guns they use and according to him, they used Hornady TAP, and no one ever kept going after a double tap of TAP.
@@fnkdtnk i was pretty disappointed myself. He didn't even mention other calibers that could breach the gap that 5.56 has in his mind. 7 62x39, 300 AAC, 6.8 SPC (New Army Round), etc... Personally for Home Defense i would use a 9mm carbine with hollowpoints preferably suppressed. Fast, low recoil, puts the target down and you can keep your hearing
It really depends on contact distance. A friend of mine is a desert storm veteran and he said nothing beats a 12ga with slugs in home clearing. He stated that multiple times a bad guy had time to shoot back after being hit with a 5.56 before he expired. If you think about it, you showed the spread pattern at multiple ranges and within 10yds, they all make a single hole so a slug is the most deadly with the same spread. Add in that super-x slugs are fairly low penetrating in ballistics gel and one ND experience showed that they do not over penetrate excessively on drywall and studs.
@@indicastrain4127 no it shouldn't, but the buckshot they were using was winchester green hull. That stuff is known for larger spread and 1200fps i think unlike 1600fps federal or hornady. I wonder if the difference was shots to extremities. The penetration aspect is what gets me.
I will be taking a second look at defensive shotguns because of this video. I had long since dismissed the idea of a home defense shotgun because I wanted to have a very precise instrument for throwing bullets around my house which I felt made the shotgun not a good option and which made the carbine my preferred choice. I think the military has a different mission for emphasizing 5 hits per target than I would have in a self defense setting. But I appreciate the many good points made in this video.
I think what is often forgotten about using an AR-15 for home defense is that they are very loud indoors. All guns are going to be loud indoors and potentially damage your hearing, but a .223 is particularly painful.
UNKNOWN3554, I fired a single round from my 11.5 SBR with a brake in my open doorway (I live in the middle of 45 acres) ONE time to get an idea of what the “worst case” sound might be like [partially] indoors, and it was the most physically painful thing my ears have ever experienced/suffered. I will NEVER willingly do THAT again! Suppressors for the win! (I keep a can on my bedside AR.)
f308gtb1977 i have an 8.5” 300 blk sbr with a brake on it (came with the brake, I hate it bc it is obnoxiously loud, and completely unnecessary for recoil, but it came that way and the can is always on). I shot it once, out doors, no ear pro, and I’ll absolutely never do that again. My 16” 5.56 on the other hand, its not bad at all. Short barrels seem to add several magnitudes of loud, add a brake and they are down right unpleasant, even with ear pro.
Active Self Protection Extra yes, that was a great lesson in stupid. But I definitely appreciate the silencerco more than I would have without the exercise in stupid.
Good food for thought. I would definitely have to get my wife and I out more to work on working and managing recoil from the shotgun. But you do present a good argument in favor of the gauge.
I completely agree with the assessment; and specifically with using a Beretta 1301 like is in your hand. That's my primary home defense gun. A single shot of 00 buck from a 12GA is just absolutely DEVASTATING. We use the word "stopping power" a lot in this community, and 00 is the absolute granddaddy of stopping meat targets. You then take that concept, and add it to a reliable semi-auto like the 1301, giving you the ability to shoot these insanely powerful meat-thrashers insanely fast, and you are just absolutely overpowered man. It almost certainly has a better chance of immediately dropping an assailant than a 5.56 would. And the projectiles won't careen across the street into your neighbors window like a 5.56 would. For a home defense context, I don't see how you could get better than that. I only see 2 advantages to using something an AR-15 instead of something like a 1301: less recoil, and detachable magazines. If we're talking about a home defense context, I can't see detachable magazines mattering. Yeah, I've got an AR-15 with loaded magazines in my safe. If 30 people surround my house Mad Max style then I'll go ahead and grab that. But realistically, you're not going to be defending your house from a zombie hoard. You'll be shooting one to two guys who break into your house. And with 00 out of a 12ga, you only need one shot each to do it. And you get the tube extension, you have 8 shots, plus extra on your sling or a side plate. Some people just won't think that's enough, or that you couldn't reload fast enough, and I understand where they are coming from. But I'm not convinced. As far as recoil goes, this really only matters if you are frail, or are trying to get a gun that your wife isn't scared to shoot. And those are both common situations - so in that case, it makes a lot of sense to not go for a 12ga. Maybe not even a 20ga. But if you're even a reasonably strong person, male or female, you can handle a 12ga shotgun. It might not feel the best. But it's self defense. The recoil of a shotgun sucks because it makes you sore, not because it makes it difficult to shoot. You're not going to be worried about having a sore shoulder from your shotgun in a home invasion. Shotguns are not that hard to shoot with some practice. And if you don't practice ever, whether it's with your shotgun, carbine, or pistol, then you're not going to be able to handle recoil or get shots on target accurately in any situation any way. So just go to the range and get used to getting a few shots off with the shotgun... it's not that bad. If a bag of meat breaks into your house with violent intent, and you want to put him down in an instant, then shoot him with 00 buck out of a 12ga shotgun. And preferably with a reliable semi-auto, so that you can repeat that over and over again as needed with nothing more than the pull of a trigger. That's my opinion. Obviously everyone's situations, experiences, local laws, and general opinions are all different, and many are equally valid for different reasons. The above is just mine.
Sorry to disagree, but for home defense, I'll choose a 5.56mm with TAP LE ammo. Low recoil. Multiple round magazines. Superb lethality. Easy for me and my Commander to use. I own shotguns, but my 5.56mm defends my casa.
Great thing about a shotgun is it doesn't matter what brand you put in it for home defense. At the ranges inside a house you're hittin a man with a softball of lead either way every shot, the only time brand of shotgun ammo really matters is if you're goin to be hunting or knowing you'll be in a fight outside of a dwelling.
My issue is penetration I believe that a carbine will over penetrate more than a shotgun or a pistol with the proper choice of ammo. I believe that 00 bucket low recoil will not penetrate as much as a carbine. What are your thoughts on this???
Thomas Cozart - your goggle search should include a “Plate Carrier”. You won’t need water bottles and extra pouch’s for nod’s, radios, or grenades.. Think lighter thoughts, couple extra magazine holders, for possible reload and a tourniquet, that’s it. Your at home so once the fight is over you should send someone for the first aid kit, maybe;) lol. Oops read that to fast. First-Aid Kit: let’s think about HABC. Hemorrhage - “Life Threatening” a Tourniquet, Airway - is usually accomplished with the head tilt chin lift or jaw thrust Breathing - a one way valve is best option for rescuer protection or raw dog rescue breathing, make sure to get a couple chest seals or minimum duct tape and plastic bags for covering puncturing wounds to the chest area. Circulation/Bleeds - your hands and arms to keep someone beating with chest compressions. /Bleeding control use homeostatic agent “if trained”, packing gauze, then a compressible bandage. 7 years Ranger Medic. USA/SGT/RET/ATP/NREMT-B
Energy transfer on 55.6 or 12ga flight control round is significant. But recoil and capacity of rounds in a mag is better on any AR15. We both seen how easily a situation goes past 6rounds. Tough subject but I would use any of the 3. Hopefully never need to but I am ready to do so.
A situation going past 6 rounds of 9mm or 5.56 is very different from a situation going past 6 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot. Buckshot is capable of reliably putting down a threat with a single shot, so in order for a shotgun fight to go beyond 6 shots, you would need to be fighting more than 6 people at once. That is a very, very, very unlikely prospect in a home defense scenario.
Great vid John!! You're absolutely right, the effectiveness per shot is much higher with a shotgun packing buckshot than a carbine. Fact of the matter is, multiple projectiles are far more likely to instantly stop an opponent than a single projectile out of a handgun or a carbine. No wonder I LOVE shotguns!!!
Great video! Could you do a video on tube fed vs. AR style Semi-auto shotguns. I just got a panzerAr12 and need reassurance haha. It runs great so far!
Excellent presentation. I'm a #4 buck man myself. They present a reduced chance of exciting exterior walls yet still meet FBI standards for penetration. Plugging someone twice with #4 buck is like shooting em 64 times with a .22.
Good points in the video, but remember in a home invasion scenario, typical is 3 or 4 bad guys. Can you accurately transition with the shotgun between 4 targets, placing 2 hits on each. A lot will boil down to what you are most comfortable with and capable with. For me, I keep a 12ga shotgun for barricade in place situations where I'm shooting at a doorway (choke point) and should I have to leave my bedroom, my AR carbine is my choice for clearing or getting to my grandkids room. Good video John, good points.
Hate to comment so late on this but I have to disagree slightly though not where you might expect. My issue with shotgun/carbine starts with the increased muzzle flash and noise level. Being able to see for follow up shots and hear for family elsewhere in the house are crucial. Handguns aren’t silent but the concussion from 5.56 alone is staggering. Also, when moving through the house, I think compressed ready is more natural / easily trained with a handgun than a long gun. This also bleeds over into your daily concealed carry and streamlines your training sessions / ammo bills. Finally, I want the whole house on board. My girlfriend doesn’t have the confidence to use long guns due to their increased weight and (often) recoil. I want something that I can leave with her or she could use if I were away. Just food for thought!
Actually each pellet from the shotgun acts more like a handgun round then a rifle round. Each pellet of 00 buck travels at about 9mm speed, but are a bit lighter, so something close to .380. Again though you are getting 8 or 9 on target all at once. My pick is the rifle. It is most accurate, for home defense it has basically unlimited range, and proper ammo selection and it will do very bad things to organs and other internal bits.
A rifle is a good choice but the thing is range is not an issue when talkin about home defense, and the great thing about a shotgun is the fact you dont have to spend extra on specialty ammo for it to work very very well. You're not goin for super tight groups, and honestly in that kinda situation you'll never have it when seconds count. The fact that you can put a golf ball to softball size amount of lead on target with one pull is a no brainer. I grew up on shotguns and have countless thousands upon thousands of rounds through them from huntin everything from birds to bear, sport shootin, and defense training and I've never seen a more devastating weapon within 40 yards to this day.
Yeah, that "unlimited range" is actually a downside when it comes to home defense. Unless you're defending your ranch from a Mad Max posse on your roof...
Extreme accuracy at 7 to 15 yards distance isn’t all that relevant. What I ultimately care about most is speed, aka time to kill. A shotgun loaded with 12 gauge buckshot has the absolute fastest time to kill for any common civilian long gun, meaning I can end the fight the fastest. I can also end the fight the easiest as landing one hit (and one hit that has more leeway in shot placement too due to the fact that buckshot can spread even inside the bad guy’s body) is much less difficult than landing multiple follow up shots.
I mean, in the military 556 is considered a bit on the weak side for stopping people. But civilians can use good expanding 223 rounds. Like the Barnes tsx, Hornady critical defense, speer gold dot soft point in 223 rem. Which definitely gives the 223 a boost in power.
Military rounds like Mk. 262 are considered top of the line when it comes to terminal effectiveness. Even then, standard doctrine is to put multiple rounds on target. There is no trainer out there anywhere, regardless of what round is loaded, that advocates simply putting one round of .223 on target and calling it a day. Everyone always advocates multiple rounds simply for that worst case scenario where one round doesn’t immediately stop the threat. With a shotgun, since you’re making multiple wounds with a single shot, it means I can achieve a reliable stop with just one pull of the trigger. That gives the “time to kill” advantage to the shotgun, and even makes up any difference in capacity as while the AR has more ammo, the shotgun is more ammo efficient and can stretch its capacity for longer, evening it out.
The shooting isn’t the issue for me. It’s the reload. Most people can’t do an AR reload very well. And a shotgun even more poorly . But then the old adage of “I can get into and out of trouble with 1 magazine.” comes to mind. For a trained shooter, or a female, I generally like to recommend an AR just because of recoil management and accuracy. But if it’s an untrained shooter I recommend a shotgun. 5 rounds of #4 or OO will get the job done. Still have to aim though. I keep a red dot on my shotguns. And the reason why is a bead is damned hard to see in the dark. But as long as you keep the bad guy in the window, even if it’s off, you will generally keep the shots on target. I use low recoil #4 in my defense shotgun. Mostly because it throws a really dense and consistent pattern. But as always your mileage may vary.
John, what the issue of wall penetration? I'm responsible once that round leaves the barrel. I live in suburbia where the houses are made of sheetrock and vinyl, and are 30 ft apart. A 5.56 or a 9mm will surely pass through my wall and into my neighbor's bedroom. What about buckshot? The other consideration is that making my way through the house with a pistol is easier than swinging a 28" barrel.
Hey John, what's the significance of the single black painted fingernail on your left ring finger? I've noticed it appears to be usually consistent in color (a couple times faded) and there for a long time now, so I assume you're intentionally painting it black and I was wondering what the significance was.
The military more then likely had to out 5 shots because of bad shot placement and also they use fmj. Civilians have way better ammo choices plus we all know not all military aren't great marksmen's and lack marksmanship. P.S. I gaurantee the 12 or 20 guage to the chest is gonna be the best fight stopper.
@@ASPextra I love how shooting someone with a 5.56 hollow point is illegal but vaporizing someone with a 120mm Armor Piercing Fin Discarding Sabot round is perfectly okay.
Merits to all the choices but I would lean toward shotgun-prob pump action. Sound of slide alone might drive them out. Of course, handgun ready as backup.
Military anecdotes with the 5.56 have always been interesting. One the one hand, I’ve heard 5.56 m855 won’t kill dogs. On the other hand, I’ve heard MK262 making kills out of the MK12 out to 500 yards or so. As far as sheer tissue disruption, sure 12 ga. wins, but with a good 5.56 load, I don’t think it’ll take 5 to the chest to put him down. Just google 5.56 wounds and you’ll see that if you put it were it needs to go, it’ll wreck whatever it touches.
John. Not wanting to beat a dead horse... While I agree with 90% of what you said, I dobt agree with the cons of a carbine. First, getting the press that an "assault rifle" was used in home defense is a great thing for the gun community. Second, the "5 rounds to everywhere" idea is a chant that arose in the military community and disappeared just as quickly except when telling war stories. The military actually teaches "controlled pairs" vs the "double tap" due to legal wording issues. Third, like many others have said, bullet type and caliber plays a huge role. Overall loved the video. Great information. I agree that a shotgun in the right configuration may be a slightly better HD weapon if the users are trained with it.
5.56 "Five rounds Minimum"? Here in MA, we can only use 10 round mags (most of us). So, we'll have to make sure to have a couple extra mags attached to the carbine's stock.?.
Richard Lee 5 rounds minimum if you are dumb enough to load your home defense carbine is milsurp 5.56 (aka fmj target ammo). Load it with an actual home defense/hunting round, and the standard double tap will work just fine. That being said, here in Texas, I’ll take 30+1 of my 5.56 sierra game king load over 7+1 of 00 buck shot. But if I was in MA, I would take 7+1 of 00 buck over 10+1 of my 5.56 loads.
@@fnkdtnk I just checked my reloading supplies and I've got 9 boxes of Sierra 1375 Varminter 60 Grain Hollow Point. (Yikes, at today's prices, that's $200 worth of slugs) Used those in my old .223 (M70 bolt) off-hand match rifle. Never shot any of those out of the AR15. Maybe those would work nice for home defense..?. I'll have to work up a load for the AR. :) The old Dillon is setup for .223 already. If the winters up here keep getting colder, I might just move back home to Texas, before I get too dam old..
Richard Lee i have a dillon 550b progressive loader, love the thing. I do have to be carful with powder charges though, sometimes I get an empty casing, and a squib is bad enough, in a serious situation it would be disastrous. I imagine those pills would work well, do you know if they penetrate at all, or are they the extremely fragile, blow up inside a squirrel type? My game kings should make it 4-5 inches in before the violently expand (you know, right about heart and lungs depth). My uncle in law is a massive gun nut, but due to some surgeries, he won’t ever do anymore competition trap and skeet shooting. Guess who is getting his progressive shotgun reloader? This guy!!!
double buck has too much penetration for normal housing arrangements, so it dont work for me. ill take the 5.56 or 9mm mid grain from a crbine and not worry of hitting innocents
I have a Taurus Judge 410 / flashlight hanging on a hook 8 inches from my bed and a 20 ga Shockwave/flashlight within a couple feet. My wife has her LCR 38 and a light and phone beside her in a drawer. What are your thoughts on getting her a 410 Shockwave/flashlight to put on her side of the bed. We live in an isolated area. One last but important point to consider. When the home alarm goes off, they instantly call to see if your ok, so. I am trying to move about with a gun light and them on the phone. The alarm company wants to be talking with you until you determine if they need to get the police coming. It. is hard to juggle gun light and phone . That has happened to me with 2 false alarms. Thanks
When it comes to protecting my family and home, I want the best tool I can legally use for the job. The hell with optics when we are talking about life or death.
Where did you hear that army teaches to shoot 5 rounds? That’s not a military tactic the military still teaches double tap or until threat is neutralized 5 is not a number I’ve ever heard that’s just an odd number to reach minimum Double tap maximum whatever it takes this is coming from a army sergeant in a combat MOS
Hmmm...heard otherwise from multiple people returning from Afghanistan, two SFOD tip of the spear enlisted leaders recently home, etc. All said the same thing.
If they are being taught that then that’s not army wide normal everyday enlisted combat soldiers are not getting taught a number double tap is minimum and of corse maximum is whatever neutralizes the threat of they are being taught that then it may be a extra training only given to special operations, rangers, or anyone else receiving extra training idk who you spoke to but I have real life experience deployed to war and did many years of training never once was I taught 5 shots so what I’m getting at is that’s not an Army wise practice
The 5.56 or .223 is good for accuracy and penetration. It's very much so a battle rifle. I wouldn't use one for home defense as my first option. As Marines, we are trained to shoot targets about 3 times at close to medium range at *minimum* . 2 to the chest and one to the head or 2 to the chest and one to the pelvis to stop their ambush. Many insurgents like to mix drugs like anabolic steroids and amphetamines to get hyped because they are cowards. It completely gives them a super human complex and can not comprehend pain like someone would when sober, aswell as cause a very bad episode of rage. That is not to say 1 shot to the chest with one won't kill... It's the matter of time that is scarce when a group of pissed off looney junkies start attacking. All in all, the M-16 or AR-15 is a good battle rifle. Light. Ammo is small so you can carry alot. The recoil is minimal so there is not much muzzle climb to keep your targets in your line of sight. Good battle rifle. Not necessarily a good one for your home defense though. A shotgun will do. And if a junkie breaks in your home, I promise a blast of buckshot to his chest is going to turn his torso inside out. Be more concerned about if you have carpet cleaner in the house.
I don’t know man, I love the amount of carnage a good 12 gauge can inflict. But objectively speaking an ar is much easier to operate than a shotgun. Especially for those people who don’t train and practice like they should. Or those who have spouses that don’t. I feel like an ar is still the better choice.
I don't see how you could call that objectively speaking. *Especially* for the people don't train and practice, just like you said. I'd rather someone who doesn't train try and get a shot on target with 00 buck, than have a bunch of missed 5.56 careening through the neighborhood. The only thing that would make a shotgun "harder" is that it has more recoil. So what? You're in a self-defense situation, you're not worried about your shoulder hurting like you would after a range day. Honestly, taking your shotgun to the range one time and hitting the paper with it, you'll be more effective in a home defense situation than you would be by taking your AR-15 to the range one time. That's my opinion at least. And the recoil thing is massively overblown, especially when people talk about it in terms of their wives. You're telling me you'd rather give your wife an AR-15 she's not accurate with, then teach her how to just get a general shot out with a shotgun because there's some muzzle rise and a sore shoulder? Just point it, shoot it, and don't let it fly out of your hands. That's all you have to do.
Active Self Protection Extra I imagine good handling inside the house with the short design. Just my imagination; I‘m from Germany and never shot a real gun in my 36 years. Just an interested viewer. :-)
What about a submachine gun? This seems the ultimate home defence tool - MP5 for example or CZ Scoprion EVO - you have 9mm gun with quite a punch, good grip (3+ points of contact), it's shorter and easier to maneuver than AR. You can use same defensive ammo as for you primary pistol, 30 rounds capacity - low recoil, not as loud as AR. I would choose MP5SD-n Used CQC by SOCOM, SWAT, Secret Service, FBI - those guys can't be wrong!
A 5.56 indoors is brutal on the ears - permanent hearing loss - blinding flash - very effective but at a cost. Definitely requires ear-pro - silencer might be good, unless you want to attract attention so neighbors are alerted. 40 grain pills tend to be extremely effective in indoor/cqb environments. A 12 ga is not as brutal on the ears but extremely effective - not for everyone due to recoil. Ear-pro highly recommended. Reduced recoil loads easier on the ears and produce tighter patterns. A handgun - effective, but not necessarily after the first or third or fifth pull of the trigger - then again, maybe so - ear-pro recommended - heavy for caliber (9mm) a plus. All in all, a shotgun is pretty compelling, but can everyone in the home use it effectively? Active hearing protection is definitely an advantage. The question is, will you have the time to turn on and deploy ear-pro? Will you be wise in staying put rather than trying to clear your home against an ensconced bad guy?
I've shot AR15's at night...a regular flash hider like an A2 flash hider wotks pretty darn good. There was no "flash". However my other AR that doesn't have a threaded muzzle, it does have a decent flash but even then it's not blinding by any means.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 Depends on barrel length and ammo selection for flash mitigation. Let's say flash isn't too much of an issue, what about hearing loss? The sound pressure level from an AR within a hallway is brutal and will cause permanent hearing loss. That's why I'd pick the shotgun with reduced recoil rounds.
That was cool. I need to get down to my shooting range when it opens. Closed for the virus. It's within walking distance. Would it be lawful to walk with my shotgun slung on my back? I'm in Florida . And it's a private road.
Funny how no one is talking about the AR-308 as a home defense weapon. The best of both worlds. The benefits of an AR platform with the stopping power of the shotgun.
@@ASPextra interesting good to know. So basically forget the AR's or the 9mm sub guns, if invaded by big stocky guys wearing vests (which apparently is a thing) and/or high on meth, you really need a shotgun, from what I am understanding.
I would say any of them will work unless they're wearing body armor, which is highly out of the usual. In which case, shoot for that which is unarmored, and then still any of them will work.
While it is correct that you are shooting more projectiles with 5 rounds of buck shot than 30 rounds of .223, I think missing your target needs to be taken into consideration. With an AR I have 30 opportunities to pull the trigger and try to hit my target, with the shotgun I only have 5.
Yes, but if you cannot hit a target at moderate to close range in 5 rounds you might want to hit the range more. I believe in all homesty that the carbine and shotgun are both excellent home defense weapons. You also have tontake into consideration your backstops. If you habe kids or family in different rooms a shotgun may be a great option for penetration problems. You dont want to go through two walls and shoot your kid in the bedroom behind your perp.
@@Spazzycat14 Very true, range time is key. I just don't want to assume my range time will always insure accurate shots in a very stressful and dynamic situation.
Just one round of 5.56 is sufficient. The case where the 3 invaders shot by the fathers son who used an AR15, he shot each intruder 1 time as far as I know and they all died. The getaway driver got away onky to turn herself in and the state charged her with the deaths of the 3 sacks of poo. Can't remember if that was in Kentucky or Oklahoma.
John, do you tell your students to load their edc handguns with fmj? Do you not still recommend Federal HST? If you do recommend HST for edc handguns, do you not also recommend an actual home defense/hunting load for 5.56? Our soldiers are using fmj target loads, or steel core fmjs, neither expand, one needs a 20” barrel to tumble, the steel core was designed to not tumble at all. So they both act like an ice pick. Soldiers are having to 5 tap our enemies because they are using fmjs. Home defense carbines don’t have to be(absolutely shouldnt be) loaded with garbage milsurp fmjs. I will not have to 5 tap someone with sierra gamekings, hornady TAP, nosler BT’s etc. A shotgun very well could still be the best option, but lets compare carbines and shotguns while at their best, not when one is artificially handicapped by rules of war they don’t apply to civilian home defense.
M855 ammo sucks. XM193 works better but still not by a large margin. If you use 223/556, heavy otm's like 77grain black hills or 75 grain hornady ammo works great. However, M855 A1 is a totally different animal and is devastating with all it's penetration and fragmentation.
Todd K I completely admit to missing the a1 part of the m855a1 John mentioned. I also fully admit to having little to no interest in military rounds, because as a civilian, I see no personal use for them. But, thanks to you and John, I looked up the m855a1, and it definitely looks like a better round than the ice picking crap my friends and family complained about. I learned something during my morning coffee, so thank you. That being said, what I saw from m855a1 today, and what I have seen from Hornady TAP, Nosler Fusions, my own hand loads etc. are not equal, if they were, hunters would be all over it. So with that said, when we talk about home defense options, lets talk about what home defense rounds do, and leave the military rounds to the military. I am also not trying to argue that one round of my hand loads will be equal to one round of oo buckshot. I just think 5.56x45’s reputation is artificially tainted by war stories, from rounds that civilians shouldn’t be using in their home defense carbines.
@@fnkdtnk No big deal, lol. I understand what you're saying. I myself, I like heavy otm's. Even Prvi Partisan 75gr out of a 16"+ barrel works great. Even some bonded hunting rounds work well too. The real complication comes in when people use shorter barrel lengths like a 11.5", 10.5", ect, as the 556 round is velocity dependant to achieve the desired performance. Look up AR15.com or the chopping block here on YT, Andrew demonstrates some really good performing 556 ammo in gel tests and some that are not so good. Many of the tests are from his short barrel rifle so it also kinda shows how the round will perform downrange from a longer barrel due to the velocity loss of the short barrel.
I believe that any multishot firearm which you (and your family?) can operate well will disperse 99% of home invaders as soon as you commence firing, so even a old granny with a Ruger Wrangler would discourage most perps. Indeed, a single action 22 revolver may be good for weak hands. But my preferred combination is a large semi-auto pistol, with an open carry holster and white light, plus a 12 gauge shotgun, also with a white light, plus a separate flashlight too, of course. But remembering what Massad Ayoob said: Supposedly, we shouldn't hunt around for intruders who are already inside. We should assemble the family in a pre-planned marshalling room, behind a strong door. And perhaps the long gun should be stored in a safe in that mashalling room.
The reasoning you presented makes sense, but the totality of the topic at hand is not discussed. How many intruders? how many doorways, hallways, and corners in the house? Who is in the other rooms of the house? Can your spouse and kids use it effectively as a home defense weapon as well, or just you? I'm not arguing the severity a shotgun can have on the human body, but more so everything that goes into being a home defense. weapon. There are many different levels of shooters, and all levels of shooters would be more efficient with a semi-auto rifle platform (really mean AR platform). At the end of the day it's a 'which cereal is better' and I love all fucking cereals.
Females I know would much rather use a carbine than the shotgun, recoil being their main complaint. It shows when they shoot, they can keep the carbine on point and in the kill zone while the shotgun produces poor follow up shots.
Active Self Protection Extra I am speaking only for the females I know. It is really hard to get them past the recoil, especially with heavier self defense loads, and if you're not using the heavier loads you are kind of defeating the the purpose of using the shotgun. Just my observations, and a small sample size, your mileage may vary! They generally like the short AR, 10.5 - 12.5 " barrels and even with the 68-77gr bullets. If you put them on a table and let them choose, it's the AR. Especially if they have fired the shotgun beforehand.
In a realistic home invasion..... It would be more than 1 armed intruders. If you have 5 shot with 4 intruders.... I doubt you could stop them with a shotgun given the circumstance. A carbine 30 rounds would definitely be more reliable in home defense
Let me start with I love the shotgun, but your shot calculations are a bit off. 5 shots from the ar 15 gives you about 6200 foot pounds of energy. Two shots of buckshot gives you about 4200 foot pounds of energy. Now take into account that lead pellets only make round holes and the 556 fragments, tumbles, and expands. It’s a little different wound characteristics
If some thug stops his car 175 yards up the road and starts shooting up your house. You might need a little more reach than a shotgun has. Just sayin, because twice in my life, I've had .22 RF bullets flying close by my head, that were fired from about 150 to 300 yards away. Shots were fired from here: 29°21'54.4"N 100°49'58.3"W (into an old house abt1960). The second time, from here: 42°31'10.4"N 71°14'27.9"W while I was walking downrange at the gun club across the river from the shooter, who was about 300 yards away. It was group of us, just walking out to change some paper targets. I was the first one to drive into the mud, I'm proud to say! LOL!
Richard Lee well yeah. I need to take a 1,000yd shot, a shotgun is a bad choice too. It’s devastating at its effective distances- have the right tool for the job.
@@JR-pr1xh The idiots down in Texas were shooting into the home of an elderly lady (a relative) the day before. We just happen to be there when they came back and started shooting into the house again. We poured out of the house in two groups to flank them. The whole area was flatland, so they saw what we were doing and ran directly away from us, into the desert. We followed them at a distance, since we weren't armed. After we hounded them for about an hour, they dropped into a deep gully and ran west, back to their car. We were about 100 yards behind them when they made their getaway. Never found out who they were. We only knew they were two young Mexican boys with .22 rifles. The idiot that shot across the river at the gun club may have been shooting at our paper targets on the 100 or 200 yard frames. The bullets were low, because they were whistling just over our heads. He might not have seen us, but he sure heard us! He was in his car racing back to the Middlesex Turnpike right after we all started yelling threats at him..
You ignored the ease of maneuvering with a handgun. I agree that a shotgun is the way t9 go for most people, but a full size handgun with 17 self defense rounds is a solid choice.
And I said it wasn't wrong. But a short overall length long gun isn't really any different than a handgun in maneuverability, and the chance of clearing your house like a ninja is minuscule.
This is why there is this action called "training"...doesn't matter what kind of gun you use, you should train with it, maneuver around the house with it (make sure it's unloaded and safe obviously) to get a feel of it and how to maneuver corners and doorways. However if it's possible to not leave the room, then don't! Better off keeping the muzzle on the door with 911 on the phone, let the invader come to you. If you have a family with kids and such, you should have a plan and everyone should know their role for this kind of situation as well as other life threatening situations like a house fire, tornado, ect...
So the only issue I have is with your source of information on 5.56 ammo. NATO green tips suck for stopping people. THAT'S why modern doctrine is to shoot 5 or 6 rounds whereas good old M193 or a .223 load would be far more effective in 2 or 3 rounds if that.
@@ASPextra Wow. I appreciate you replying. I've been a fan of your channels for a while now. However I really do believe that M855 is a weak defensive round which contributes to the poor reputation of 5.56/.223 as a whole. Anecdotally, the M16 in Vietnam had a reputation for doing massive damage to people even though the rifles were troublesome. While not the most scientific thing, Paul Harell did some demonstrations on M855 vs M193 which i believe highlight my point. I'm not saying it would never be necessary to shoot 5 or more rounds of better ammo but that it may not be necessary to shoot 5 as a standard. Again thanks for taking the time to discuss this. I really do appreciate your work. th-cam.com/video/bKQizbg1zBw/w-d-xo.html
Coworker: Do you prefer a pistol, carbine/rifle, or shotgun for home defense?
Me: yes
World Traveler东北 all of the above 😄
John Wick retreating through the tunnel. Handgun fight to rifle, empties it, shotgun, empties it, back to handgun.
Oh man, you done it now, you said 5.56 was lacking power AND you picked a shotgun. As Gandalf once said "Things are now in motion that cannot be undone" 😂
That fool of a took :P
Haha! RUN YOU FOOLS!
Thank you. I have been pro shotgun forever precisely for the reasons you state here. Someone who can run a shotgun properly can be brutally successful in it's application.
Pistol for muggers, shot gun for home invaders , and rifles for tyrants.
@@toomuchdebt5669 Perfect summation.
th-cam.com/video/b4sVQ_ZwI04/w-d-xo.html
@@toomuchdebt5669 Nice
Hard to beat ole reliable, shotgun is so underrated even though it's been a proven manstopper since they were invented, theres a reason it's still around. Been my number one choice since I was a kid.
My friend just killed 2 intruders with his AR. That's the best home defense weapon. There were 4 of them and even though he took one to the gut, he killed 2 of them and survived to tell the tail. Last week in Marion County, FL.
Good example of what really happens in life. This video makes the assumption that there will only be one intruder.
I most certainly did not make any assumptions about how many intruders there would be.
@@ASPextra I didn't imply that. Thanks for the great video!
Realistically, in a home defense situation, I'd probably reflexively go for my cc handgun, since It's more readily available and I have more trigger time with it. This would probably give my wife time to go for her carbine. LOL
I've been using a Mossberg 500 with 18.5 barrel for over 30 years as my home defense gun. Great choice John!
Ole mossberg been defending, protecting, and feeding alot of people a long time including me good sir. Probably the most effective tool a man could ever own.
I Sleep next to a Mossberg pump every night. 👍🏿👍🏿
I like how you referred to "bad press" as "optics problems" lol cameras
Dragon Slayer Except the thing is, I’ve never seen anyone really “demonized” for using an AR15 for home defense because usually bigger media groups try to pretend that doesn’t exist.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 true!! The critics are usually deranged lefties
I guess by definition I'm a "Professional" with all three and I have to say with the right set up the shotgun is the superior home defense tool. The only problem I have with it is the draw and length of the shotgun in close quarters.
EXCELLENT video John! 👍👍👍👍👍
You can always shoot from the hip indoors. I teach tacticool shotgun ;)
Think maybe an SBS or Shockwave is what you are looking for. If you put Mini Shells in, you don’t have to be so concerned with over penetration plus you gain a couple rounds in the gun. Still makes a huge fire ball and loud bang, for your shock and awe;) you better get out my HOUSE, lol
@@CatMan_7 it'd make you think that the mini shells would penetrate less because they are smaller but they in fact penetrate almost as much as regular buckshot. You can find a test here on TH-cam with ballistics gel and sheetrock.
Remember about 5.56 and soldiers though. They can't carry something like speer gold dot hollow points. Big difference.
that plus using 14.5 barrels really weakens 5.56. A bullpup like the tavor keeps the 20 inch barrel and your lethality in a small package
Honestly, I expected more from John here. This video is about home defense, not combat, so use home defense rounds, not combat rounds. The constant “soldiers in war said it’s like an ice pick blah blah blah” is tiresome. We are good family friends with a former SWAT captain for Houston PD. Naturally, I’ve talked to him about the guns they use and according to him, they used Hornady TAP, and no one ever kept going after a double tap of TAP.
@@fnkdtnk i was pretty disappointed myself. He didn't even mention other calibers that could breach the gap that 5.56 has in his mind. 7 62x39, 300 AAC, 6.8 SPC (New Army Round), etc...
Personally for Home Defense i would use a 9mm carbine with hollowpoints preferably suppressed. Fast, low recoil, puts the target down and you can keep your hearing
Boy you guys are saying a lot of stuff I didn't say.
@@ASPextra correct me if I'm wrong but the reason the carbine lost points was due to lack of power (5 rounds per target) correct?
It really depends on contact distance. A friend of mine is a desert storm veteran and he said nothing beats a 12ga with slugs in home clearing. He stated that multiple times a bad guy had time to shoot back after being hit with a 5.56 before he expired. If you think about it, you showed the spread pattern at multiple ranges and within 10yds, they all make a single hole so a slug is the most deadly with the same spread. Add in that super-x slugs are fairly low penetrating in ballistics gel and one ND experience showed that they do not over penetrate excessively on drywall and studs.
Not sure that a slug surpasses the terminal ballistics of being hit with 8 .32 caliber pellets simutaneously
@@indicastrain4127 no it shouldn't, but the buckshot they were using was winchester green hull. That stuff is known for larger spread and 1200fps i think unlike 1600fps federal or hornady. I wonder if the difference was shots to extremities. The penetration aspect is what gets me.
Military uses bad ammo mostly. MK262 has a better track record of stopping people.
slugs u better live alone not near people.
I would use rifled hollow point slugs
I will be taking a second look at defensive shotguns because of this video. I had long since dismissed the idea of a home defense shotgun because I wanted to have a very precise instrument for throwing bullets around my house which I felt made the shotgun not a good option and which made the carbine my preferred choice. I think the military has a different mission for emphasizing 5 hits per target than I would have in a self defense setting. But I appreciate the many good points made in this video.
I think what is often forgotten about using an AR-15 for home defense is that they are very loud indoors. All guns are going to be loud indoors and potentially damage your hearing, but a .223 is particularly painful.
UNKNOWN3554,
I fired a single round from my 11.5 SBR with a brake in my open doorway (I live in the middle of 45 acres) ONE time to get an idea of what the “worst case” sound might be like [partially] indoors, and it was the most physically painful thing my ears have ever experienced/suffered. I will NEVER willingly do THAT again!
Suppressors for the win!
(I keep a can on my bedside AR.)
f308gtb1977 i have an 8.5” 300 blk sbr with a brake on it (came with the brake, I hate it bc it is obnoxiously loud, and completely unnecessary for recoil, but it came that way and the can is always on). I shot it once, out doors, no ear pro, and I’ll absolutely never do that again. My 16” 5.56 on the other hand, its not bad at all. Short barrels seem to add several magnitudes of loud, add a brake and they are down right unpleasant, even with ear pro.
fnkdtnk,
You said it.
Oh dang, you shot your .300BLK with a. brake and no ear pro? RIP your ear drums. :(
Active Self Protection Extra yes, that was a great lesson in stupid. But I definitely appreciate the silencerco more than I would have without the exercise in stupid.
Correct answer is "all three." Especially an AR Pistol or a PCC.
AR pistol FTW!
**7.5" barreled ar pistol
I have all 3, Pistol to fight/get to my long gun. Then I go for my 870 first, but have a carbine ready to go as well.
870 here as well. #4 buck. Streamlight tlr-1.
Same bro!
Same minus the shotgun!
Toamaius D'Vignir
Looks like you have fought a lot of battles in that head of yours Rambo 😂
@@johnwicksfoknpencil I am more of the mentality of, "I rather have them and not need them" vs "Need them and not have them...."
Good food for thought. I would definitely have to get my wife and I out more to work on working and managing recoil from the shotgun. But you do present a good argument in favor of the gauge.
What can shotguns do? I think this Vietnam vet has an idea...
th-cam.com/video/b4sVQ_ZwI04/w-d-xo.html
I completely agree with the assessment; and specifically with using a Beretta 1301 like is in your hand. That's my primary home defense gun.
A single shot of 00 buck from a 12GA is just absolutely DEVASTATING. We use the word "stopping power" a lot in this community, and 00 is the absolute granddaddy of stopping meat targets. You then take that concept, and add it to a reliable semi-auto like the 1301, giving you the ability to shoot these insanely powerful meat-thrashers insanely fast, and you are just absolutely overpowered man. It almost certainly has a better chance of immediately dropping an assailant than a 5.56 would. And the projectiles won't careen across the street into your neighbors window like a 5.56 would. For a home defense context, I don't see how you could get better than that.
I only see 2 advantages to using something an AR-15 instead of something like a 1301: less recoil, and detachable magazines.
If we're talking about a home defense context, I can't see detachable magazines mattering. Yeah, I've got an AR-15 with loaded magazines in my safe. If 30 people surround my house Mad Max style then I'll go ahead and grab that. But realistically, you're not going to be defending your house from a zombie hoard. You'll be shooting one to two guys who break into your house. And with 00 out of a 12ga, you only need one shot each to do it. And you get the tube extension, you have 8 shots, plus extra on your sling or a side plate. Some people just won't think that's enough, or that you couldn't reload fast enough, and I understand where they are coming from. But I'm not convinced.
As far as recoil goes, this really only matters if you are frail, or are trying to get a gun that your wife isn't scared to shoot. And those are both common situations - so in that case, it makes a lot of sense to not go for a 12ga. Maybe not even a 20ga. But if you're even a reasonably strong person, male or female, you can handle a 12ga shotgun. It might not feel the best. But it's self defense. The recoil of a shotgun sucks because it makes you sore, not because it makes it difficult to shoot. You're not going to be worried about having a sore shoulder from your shotgun in a home invasion. Shotguns are not that hard to shoot with some practice. And if you don't practice ever, whether it's with your shotgun, carbine, or pistol, then you're not going to be able to handle recoil or get shots on target accurately in any situation any way. So just go to the range and get used to getting a few shots off with the shotgun... it's not that bad.
If a bag of meat breaks into your house with violent intent, and you want to put him down in an instant, then shoot him with 00 buck out of a 12ga shotgun. And preferably with a reliable semi-auto, so that you can repeat that over and over again as needed with nothing more than the pull of a trigger. That's my opinion.
Obviously everyone's situations, experiences, local laws, and general opinions are all different, and many are equally valid for different reasons. The above is just mine.
Use a good load for your AR and you don’t have to worry about it “going through the neighbors wall” or whatever you said lol.
Sorry to disagree, but for home defense, I'll choose a 5.56mm with TAP LE ammo.
Low recoil. Multiple round magazines. Superb lethality.
Easy for me and my Commander to use.
I own shotguns, but my 5.56mm defends my casa.
I mean, you're not wrong. A home defense carbine can do the job just fine.
Great thing about a shotgun is it doesn't matter what brand you put in it for home defense. At the ranges inside a house you're hittin a man with a softball of lead either way every shot, the only time brand of shotgun ammo really matters is if you're goin to be hunting or knowing you'll be in a fight outside of a dwelling.
All of them. At once.
My issue is penetration I believe that a carbine will over penetrate more than a shotgun or a pistol with the proper choice of ammo. I believe that 00 bucket low recoil will not penetrate as much as a carbine. What are your thoughts on this???
Good points!
I have all three ready at all times.
John, Great comparison video! Very original and well thought out!
John, can you tell me about the IFAK you have in this video? I am trying to decide what I need.
Thomas Cozart - your goggle search should include a “Plate Carrier”. You won’t need water bottles and extra pouch’s for nod’s, radios, or grenades.. Think lighter thoughts, couple extra magazine holders, for possible reload and a tourniquet, that’s it. Your at home so once the fight is over you should send someone for the first aid kit, maybe;) lol.
Oops read that to fast. First-Aid Kit: let’s think about HABC.
Hemorrhage - “Life Threatening” a Tourniquet,
Airway - is usually accomplished with the head tilt chin lift or jaw thrust
Breathing - a one way valve is best option for rescuer protection or raw dog rescue breathing, make sure to get a couple chest seals or minimum duct tape and plastic bags for covering puncturing wounds to the chest area.
Circulation/Bleeds - your hands and arms to keep someone beating with chest compressions. /Bleeding control use homeostatic agent “if trained”, packing gauze, then a compressible bandage.
7 years Ranger Medic.
USA/SGT/RET/ATP/NREMT-B
More to come. I just posted a tease about it on my. IG.
Active Self Protection Extra Thank you sir.
Energy transfer on 55.6 or 12ga flight control round is significant. But recoil and capacity of rounds in a mag is better on any AR15. We both seen how easily a situation goes past 6rounds. Tough subject but I would use any of the 3. Hopefully never need to but I am ready to do so.
A situation going past 6 rounds of 9mm or 5.56 is very different from a situation going past 6 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot. Buckshot is capable of reliably putting down a threat with a single shot, so in order for a shotgun fight to go beyond 6 shots, you would need to be fighting more than 6 people at once. That is a very, very, very unlikely prospect in a home defense scenario.
Great vid John!!
You're absolutely right, the effectiveness per shot is much higher with a shotgun packing buckshot than a carbine. Fact of the matter is, multiple projectiles are far more likely to instantly stop an opponent than a single projectile out of a handgun or a carbine. No wonder I LOVE shotguns!!!
I have been looking at the benelli m4 for a home defense shotgun...
The rifle is queen of the battlefield, but the shotgun is king of the castle :)
Great video! Could you do a video on tube fed vs. AR style Semi-auto shotguns. I just got a panzerAr12 and need reassurance haha. It runs great so far!
I have never seen a magazine fed shotgun make it through a class, so I don't trust them at all.
Excellent presentation. I'm a #4 buck man myself. They present a reduced chance of exciting exterior walls yet still meet FBI standards for penetration. Plugging someone twice with #4 buck is like shooting em 64 times with a .22.
My problem is the shot pattern.
@@ASPextra That's a fair concern. #4 buck patterns well in my Mossberg and I live in a shoebox, the farest possible shot in my home is 15 feet.
Great video and good insight brother.
Great video and excellent points to consider. Thank you!
Good points in the video, but remember in a home invasion scenario, typical is 3 or 4 bad guys. Can you accurately transition with the shotgun between 4 targets, placing 2 hits on each. A lot will boil down to what you are most comfortable with and capable with. For me, I keep a 12ga shotgun for barricade in place situations where I'm shooting at a doorway (choke point) and should I have to leave my bedroom, my AR carbine is my choice for clearing or getting to my grandkids room. Good video John, good points.
I have never seen someone take a single buckshot round and do anything but lie down and briefly regret their life choices.
@@ASPextra true , but factor in Murphy's Law and factors that might cause misses, etc, multiple shots may be required.
And I have also never seen a home defender engage two attackers without the remaining invaders running.
@@ASPextra True.... you use what works for you!
Hate to comment so late on this but I have to disagree slightly though not where you might expect. My issue with shotgun/carbine starts with the increased muzzle flash and noise level. Being able to see for follow up shots and hear for family elsewhere in the house are crucial. Handguns aren’t silent but the concussion from 5.56 alone is staggering. Also, when moving through the house, I think compressed ready is more natural / easily trained with a handgun than a long gun. This also bleeds over into your daily concealed carry and streamlines your training sessions / ammo bills. Finally, I want the whole house on board. My girlfriend doesn’t have the confidence to use long guns due to their increased weight and (often) recoil. I want something that I can leave with her or she could use if I were away. Just food for thought!
Actually each pellet from the shotgun acts more like a handgun round then a rifle round. Each pellet of 00 buck travels at about 9mm speed, but are a bit lighter, so something close to .380. Again though you are getting 8 or 9 on target all at once.
My pick is the rifle. It is most accurate, for home defense it has basically unlimited range, and proper ammo selection and it will do very bad things to organs and other internal bits.
A rifle is a good choice but the thing is range is not an issue when talkin about home defense, and the great thing about a shotgun is the fact you dont have to spend extra on specialty ammo for it to work very very well. You're not goin for super tight groups, and honestly in that kinda situation you'll never have it when seconds count. The fact that you can put a golf ball to softball size amount of lead on target with one pull is a no brainer. I grew up on shotguns and have countless thousands upon thousands of rounds through them from huntin everything from birds to bear, sport shootin, and defense training and I've never seen a more devastating weapon within 40 yards to this day.
Yeah, that "unlimited range" is actually a downside when it comes to home defense. Unless you're defending your ranch from a Mad Max posse on your roof...
Extreme accuracy at 7 to 15 yards distance isn’t all that relevant. What I ultimately care about most is speed, aka time to kill. A shotgun loaded with 12 gauge buckshot has the absolute fastest time to kill for any common civilian long gun, meaning I can end the fight the fastest. I can also end the fight the easiest as landing one hit (and one hit that has more leeway in shot placement too due to the fact that buckshot can spread even inside the bad guy’s body) is much less difficult than landing multiple follow up shots.
I mean, in the military 556 is considered a bit on the weak side for stopping people. But civilians can use good expanding 223 rounds. Like the Barnes tsx, Hornady critical defense, speer gold dot soft point in 223 rem. Which definitely gives the 223 a boost in power.
Military rounds like Mk. 262 are considered top of the line when it comes to terminal effectiveness. Even then, standard doctrine is to put multiple rounds on target. There is no trainer out there anywhere, regardless of what round is loaded, that advocates simply putting one round of .223 on target and calling it a day. Everyone always advocates multiple rounds simply for that worst case scenario where one round doesn’t immediately stop the threat. With a shotgun, since you’re making multiple wounds with a single shot, it means I can achieve a reliable stop with just one pull of the trigger. That gives the “time to kill” advantage to the shotgun, and even makes up any difference in capacity as while the AR has more ammo, the shotgun is more ammo efficient and can stretch its capacity for longer, evening it out.
The shooting isn’t the issue for me. It’s the reload. Most people can’t do an AR reload very well. And a shotgun even more poorly . But then the old adage of “I can get into and out of trouble with 1 magazine.” comes to mind. For a trained shooter, or a female, I generally like to recommend an AR just because of recoil management and accuracy. But if it’s an untrained shooter I recommend a shotgun. 5 rounds of #4 or OO will get the job done. Still have to aim though. I keep a red dot on my shotguns. And the reason why is a bead is damned hard to see in the dark. But as long as you keep the bad guy in the window, even if it’s off, you will generally keep the shots on target. I use low recoil #4 in my defense shotgun. Mostly because it throws a really dense and consistent pattern. But as always your mileage may vary.
I don't have but one home defense tool. A pump shotgun. I was pulling for it to win the day. Glad I made the decision.
John, what the issue of wall penetration? I'm responsible once that round leaves the barrel. I live in suburbia where the houses are made of sheetrock and vinyl, and are 30 ft apart. A 5.56 or a 9mm will surely pass through my wall and into my neighbor's bedroom. What about buckshot? The other consideration is that making my way through the house with a pistol is easier than swinging a 28" barrel.
Same problem with any of them. Don't miss.
Hey John, what's the significance of the single black painted fingernail on your left ring finger? I've noticed it appears to be usually consistent in color (a couple times faded) and there for a long time now, so I assume you're intentionally painting it black and I was wondering what the significance was.
It’s just wearing off now. It was a show of love for a friend and fellow martial artist who was almost killed in a car wreck.
@@ASPextra I figured you had a neat cause. Thanks for responding, and I hope your friend is recovering well
The military more then likely had to out 5 shots because of bad shot placement and also they use fmj. Civilians have way better ammo choices plus we all know not all military aren't great marksmen's and lack marksmanship.
P.S. I gaurantee the 12 or 20 guage to the chest is gonna be the best fight stopper.
The military does not have to use FMJ. We never signed the Hague Convention.
@@ASPextra I love how shooting someone with a 5.56 hollow point is illegal but vaporizing someone with a 120mm Armor Piercing Fin Discarding Sabot round is perfectly okay.
Merits to all the choices but I would lean toward shotgun-prob pump action. Sound of slide alone might drive them out. Of course, handgun ready as backup.
The sound of a shotgun doesn't scare people off.
Awesome Video!
Thanks!
Shoot it in a narrow hallway with muzzle flash and ear piecing sound and your choice might be different.
No, not really.
Military anecdotes with the 5.56 have always been interesting. One the one hand, I’ve heard 5.56 m855 won’t kill dogs. On the other hand, I’ve heard MK262 making kills out of the MK12 out to 500 yards or so. As far as sheer tissue disruption, sure 12 ga. wins, but with a good 5.56 load, I don’t think it’ll take 5 to the chest to put him down. Just google 5.56 wounds and you’ll see that if you put it were it needs to go, it’ll wreck whatever it touches.
John. Not wanting to beat a dead horse... While I agree with 90% of what you said, I dobt agree with the cons of a carbine.
First, getting the press that an "assault rifle" was used in home defense is a great thing for the gun community. Second, the "5 rounds to everywhere" idea is a chant that arose in the military community and disappeared just as quickly except when telling war stories. The military actually teaches "controlled pairs" vs the "double tap" due to legal wording issues. Third, like many others have said, bullet type and caliber plays a huge role.
Overall loved the video. Great information. I agree that a shotgun in the right configuration may be a slightly better HD weapon if the users are trained with it.
I use AK-47 for my home defense.
You damn commie!!!
After watching it, my response on FB is still the same….D) all of the above. 😏🤣🤣
5.56 "Five rounds Minimum"? Here in MA, we can only use 10 round mags (most of us). So, we'll have to make sure to have a couple extra mags attached to the carbine's stock.?.
I think you are the perfect case for the 12 gauge. Each shell is the equivalent of a mag change 😂
Richard Lee 5 rounds minimum if you are dumb enough to load your home defense carbine is milsurp 5.56 (aka fmj target ammo). Load it with an actual home defense/hunting round, and the standard double tap will work just fine.
That being said, here in Texas, I’ll take 30+1 of my 5.56 sierra game king load over 7+1 of 00 buck shot. But if I was in MA, I would take 7+1 of 00 buck over 10+1 of my 5.56 loads.
@@fnkdtnk I just checked my reloading supplies and I've got 9 boxes of Sierra 1375 Varminter 60 Grain Hollow Point. (Yikes, at today's prices, that's $200 worth of slugs) Used those in my old .223 (M70 bolt) off-hand match rifle. Never shot any of those out of the AR15. Maybe those would work nice for home defense..?.
I'll have to work up a load for the AR. :)
The old Dillon is setup for .223 already.
If the winters up here keep getting colder, I might just move back home to Texas, before I get too dam old..
@@bryanw4582 I don't have any reloading gear for shotgun.. :(
Richard Lee i have a dillon 550b progressive loader, love the thing. I do have to be carful with powder charges though, sometimes I get an empty casing, and a squib is bad enough, in a serious situation it would be disastrous.
I imagine those pills would work well, do you know if they penetrate at all, or are they the extremely fragile, blow up inside a squirrel type? My game kings should make it 4-5 inches in before the violently expand (you know, right about heart and lungs depth).
My uncle in law is a massive gun nut, but due to some surgeries, he won’t ever do anymore competition trap and skeet shooting. Guess who is getting his progressive shotgun reloader? This guy!!!
double buck has too much penetration for normal housing arrangements, so it dont work for me. ill take the 5.56 or 9mm mid grain from a crbine and not worry of hitting innocents
You realize they penetrate about 8-10 interior walls too right?
I have a Taurus Judge 410 / flashlight hanging on a hook 8 inches from my bed and a 20 ga Shockwave/flashlight within a couple feet. My wife has her LCR 38 and a light and phone beside her in a drawer. What are your thoughts on getting her a 410 Shockwave/flashlight to put on her side of the bed. We live in an isolated area. One last but important point to consider. When the home alarm goes off, they instantly call to see if your ok, so. I am trying to move about with a gun light and them on the phone. The alarm company wants to be talking with you until you determine if they need to get the police coming. It. is hard to juggle gun light and phone . That has happened to me with 2 false alarms. Thanks
So much to say here. Let a designated person handle the phone.
DP-12. When you absolutely, positively gotta smoke every bad guy coming down the hallway…accept no substitute.
When it comes to protecting my family and home, I want the best tool I can legally use for the job. The hell with optics when we are talking about life or death.
What do u have against optics?
@@DLI002 I think he means optics as In how the media or justice system will view the incident
9mm pcc!
John did you say that P30 was a LEM?
Yessir.
Where did you hear that army teaches to shoot 5 rounds? That’s not a military tactic the military still teaches double tap or until threat is neutralized 5 is not a number I’ve ever heard that’s just an odd number to reach minimum
Double tap maximum whatever it takes this is coming from a army sergeant in a combat MOS
Hmmm...heard otherwise from multiple people returning from Afghanistan, two SFOD tip of the spear enlisted leaders recently home, etc. All said the same thing.
If they are being taught that then that’s not army wide normal everyday enlisted combat soldiers are not getting taught a number double tap is minimum and of corse maximum is whatever neutralizes the threat of they are being taught that then it may be a extra training only given to special operations, rangers, or anyone else receiving extra training idk who you spoke to but I have real life experience deployed to war and did many years of training never once was I taught 5 shots so what I’m getting at is that’s not an Army wise practice
If you’d like I can send you a link to the infantry tactics it’s 146 pages of army infantry tactics
Active Self Protection Extra just send me your email if you’d like me to send you the infantry live fire training that we receive
Once again not saying you’re wrong I believe someone told you that but it’s not a army wide doctorate
The 5.56 or .223 is good for accuracy and penetration. It's very much so a battle rifle. I wouldn't use one for home defense as my first option. As Marines, we are trained to shoot targets about 3 times at close to medium range at *minimum* . 2 to the chest and one to the head or 2 to the chest and one to the pelvis to stop their ambush. Many insurgents like to mix drugs like anabolic steroids and amphetamines to get hyped because they are cowards. It completely gives them a super human complex and can not comprehend pain like someone would when sober, aswell as cause a very bad episode of rage. That is not to say 1 shot to the chest with one won't kill... It's the matter of time that is scarce when a group of pissed off looney junkies start attacking. All in all, the M-16 or AR-15 is a good battle rifle. Light. Ammo is small so you can carry alot. The recoil is minimal so there is not much muzzle climb to keep your targets in your line of sight. Good battle rifle. Not necessarily a good one for your home defense though. A shotgun will do. And if a junkie breaks in your home, I promise a blast of buckshot to his chest is going to turn his torso inside out. Be more concerned about if you have carpet cleaner in the house.
I don’t know man, I love the amount of carnage a good 12 gauge can inflict. But objectively speaking an ar is much easier to operate than a shotgun. Especially for those people who don’t train and practice like they should. Or those who have spouses that don’t. I feel like an ar is still the better choice.
Hmmm...not too sure about that.
I don't see how you could call that objectively speaking. *Especially* for the people don't train and practice, just like you said. I'd rather someone who doesn't train try and get a shot on target with 00 buck, than have a bunch of missed 5.56 careening through the neighborhood. The only thing that would make a shotgun "harder" is that it has more recoil. So what? You're in a self-defense situation, you're not worried about your shoulder hurting like you would after a range day.
Honestly, taking your shotgun to the range one time and hitting the paper with it, you'll be more effective in a home defense situation than you would be by taking your AR-15 to the range one time. That's my opinion at least.
And the recoil thing is massively overblown, especially when people talk about it in terms of their wives. You're telling me you'd rather give your wife an AR-15 she's not accurate with, then teach her how to just get a general shot out with a shotgun because there's some muzzle rise and a sore shoulder? Just point it, shoot it, and don't let it fly out of your hands. That's all you have to do.
As far as a "man stopper" goes, you get far more "Bang for your Buckshot" with a shotgun!
The Minnie Mouse bow on your head is sure to end a fight before it even starts! ;)
So kawaii Instructor-kun!
Desu desu.
What about a FN P90?
That's a unique choice...
Active Self Protection Extra I imagine good handling inside the house with the short design. Just my imagination; I‘m from Germany and never shot a real gun in my 36 years. Just an interested viewer. :-)
What about a submachine gun? This seems the ultimate home defence tool - MP5 for example or CZ Scoprion EVO - you have 9mm gun with quite a punch, good grip (3+ points of contact), it's shorter and easier to maneuver than AR. You can use same defensive ammo as for you primary pistol, 30 rounds capacity - low recoil, not as loud as AR. I would choose MP5SD-n Used CQC by SOCOM, SWAT, Secret Service, FBI - those guys can't be wrong!
I know some folks like PCC.
Good stuff. 👍🇺🇸👍
A 5.56 indoors is brutal on the ears - permanent hearing loss - blinding flash - very effective but at a cost. Definitely requires ear-pro - silencer might be good, unless you want to attract attention so neighbors are alerted. 40 grain pills tend to be extremely effective in indoor/cqb environments.
A 12 ga is not as brutal on the ears but extremely effective - not for everyone due to recoil. Ear-pro highly recommended. Reduced recoil loads easier on the ears and produce tighter patterns.
A handgun - effective, but not necessarily after the first or third or fifth pull of the trigger - then again, maybe so - ear-pro recommended - heavy for caliber (9mm) a plus.
All in all, a shotgun is pretty compelling, but can everyone in the home use it effectively?
Active hearing protection is definitely an advantage. The question is, will you have the time to turn on and deploy ear-pro? Will you be wise in staying put rather than trying to clear your home against an ensconced bad guy?
In Gratitude I Am Blinding flash? Are you serious? Most ARs these days come with A2 flash hiders, so flash is going to be very minimal.
I've shot AR15's at night...a regular flash hider like an A2 flash hider wotks pretty darn good. There was no "flash". However my other AR that doesn't have a threaded muzzle, it does have a decent flash but even then it's not blinding by any means.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 Depends on barrel length and ammo selection for flash mitigation. Let's say flash isn't too much of an issue, what about hearing loss? The sound pressure level from an AR within a hallway is brutal and will cause permanent hearing loss. That's why I'd pick the shotgun with reduced recoil rounds.
Disdain isnt a verb
It's both a noun and verb.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disdain#:~:text=disdained%3B%20disdaining%3B%20disdains,disdained%20him%20as%20a%20coward
#4 buck
5.56 soft / polymer points all day
You don't need that...you got John Wick's Pencil of death, lmao.
Get an AR style semi auto shotgun with a large mag, put on a binary trigger and a flashlight. Game over.
Pump action shotgun?
That was cool. I need to get down to my shooting range when it opens. Closed for the virus. It's within walking distance. Would it be lawful to walk with my shotgun slung on my back? I'm in Florida . And it's a private road.
Funny how no one is talking about the AR-308 as a home defense weapon. The best of both worlds. The benefits of an AR platform with the stopping power of the shotgun.
Nah, at home defense distances a 308 and a 223 are terminally the same. Neither are the same as a shotgun at home defense distances.
@@ASPextra interesting good to know. So basically forget the AR's or the 9mm sub guns, if invaded by big stocky guys wearing vests (which apparently is a thing) and/or high on meth, you really need a shotgun, from what I am understanding.
I would say any of them will work unless they're wearing body armor, which is highly out of the usual. In which case, shoot for that which is unarmored, and then still any of them will work.
While it is correct that you are shooting more projectiles with 5 rounds of buck shot than 30 rounds of .223, I think missing your target needs to be taken into consideration. With an AR I have 30 opportunities to pull the trigger and try to hit my target, with the shotgun I only have 5.
Yes, but if you cannot hit a target at moderate to close range in 5 rounds you might want to hit the range more. I believe in all homesty that the carbine and shotgun are both excellent home defense weapons. You also have tontake into consideration your backstops. If you habe kids or family in different rooms a shotgun may be a great option for penetration problems. You dont want to go through two walls and shoot your kid in the bedroom behind your perp.
@@Spazzycat14 Very true, range time is key. I just don't want to assume my range time will always insure accurate shots in a very stressful and dynamic situation.
Please see my video on patterning shotgun.
Also 8 rounds of 00 buck is NOT 8 rounds from a carbine. It's like 8 rounds from your pistol. Velocity makes a big difference.
That's not untrue. That said, will 8 pellets of 00 buck reliably incapacitate? I think yes.
1000 rds of 9mm for 150 damn wish I was old enough back then
Hey John, out of curiosity, why do your earpro have cat ears?
Because it's fun.
Fun? Dang bro, I’d say something entirely different.
Just one round of 5.56 is sufficient. The case where the 3 invaders shot by the fathers son who used an AR15, he shot each intruder 1 time as far as I know and they all died. The getaway driver got away onky to turn herself in and the state charged her with the deaths of the 3 sacks of poo. Can't remember if that was in Kentucky or Oklahoma.
I just looked up that case. It was in Oklahoma. And in no reporting does it state how many times the intruders were shot.
I still like my short barrel pump. Not into the semi auto shotguns.
That may be perfect for you but I have seen more user induced malfunctions with a pump than a good semi auto with newer shooters.
I can see that happening for sure. Pump guns need a whole lot of training.
I'll take my 45ACP Hi Point Carbine! 🙂❤
Option D: All the Above
John, do you tell your students to load their edc handguns with fmj? Do you not still recommend Federal HST? If you do recommend HST for edc handguns, do you not also recommend an actual home defense/hunting load for 5.56?
Our soldiers are using fmj target loads, or steel core fmjs, neither expand, one needs a 20” barrel to tumble, the steel core was designed to not tumble at all. So they both act like an ice pick. Soldiers are having to 5 tap our enemies because they are using fmjs. Home defense carbines don’t have to be(absolutely shouldnt be) loaded with garbage milsurp fmjs. I will not have to 5 tap someone with sierra gamekings, hornady TAP, nosler BT’s etc. A shotgun very well could still be the best option, but lets compare carbines and shotguns while at their best, not when one is artificially handicapped by rules of war they don’t apply to civilian home defense.
I would argue that the M855A1 that our forces are using in Afghanistan is highly effective. That's not why they shoot 5.
Active Self Protection Extra if it is highly effective, then why are they complaining about it being ineffective, and why are they having to 5 tap?
M855 ammo sucks. XM193 works better but still not by a large margin. If you use 223/556, heavy otm's like 77grain black hills or 75 grain hornady ammo works great. However, M855 A1 is a totally different animal and is devastating with all it's penetration and fragmentation.
Todd K I completely admit to missing the a1 part of the m855a1 John mentioned. I also fully admit to having little to no interest in military rounds, because as a civilian, I see no personal use for them. But, thanks to you and John, I looked up the m855a1, and it definitely looks like a better round than the ice picking crap my friends and family complained about. I learned something during my morning coffee, so thank you. That being said, what I saw from m855a1 today, and what I have seen from Hornady TAP, Nosler Fusions, my own hand loads etc. are not equal, if they were, hunters would be all over it. So with that said, when we talk about home defense options, lets talk about what home defense rounds do, and leave the military rounds to the military. I am also not trying to argue that one round of my hand loads will be equal to one round of oo buckshot. I just think 5.56x45’s reputation is artificially tainted by war stories, from rounds that civilians shouldn’t be using in their home defense carbines.
@@fnkdtnk
No big deal, lol. I understand what you're saying. I myself, I like heavy otm's. Even Prvi Partisan 75gr out of a 16"+ barrel works great. Even some bonded hunting rounds work well too. The real complication comes in when people use shorter barrel lengths like a 11.5", 10.5", ect, as the 556 round is velocity dependant to achieve the desired performance. Look up AR15.com or the chopping block here on YT, Andrew demonstrates some really good performing 556 ammo in gel tests and some that are not so good. Many of the tests are from his short barrel rifle so it also kinda shows how the round will perform downrange from a longer barrel due to the velocity loss of the short barrel.
I believe that any multishot firearm which you (and your family?) can operate well will disperse 99% of home invaders as soon as you commence firing, so even a old granny with a Ruger Wrangler would discourage most perps. Indeed, a single action 22 revolver may be good for weak hands.
But my preferred combination is a large semi-auto pistol, with an open carry holster and white light, plus a 12 gauge shotgun, also with a white light, plus a separate flashlight too, of course.
But remembering what Massad Ayoob said: Supposedly, we shouldn't hunt around for intruders who are already inside. We should assemble the family in a pre-planned marshalling room, behind a strong door.
And perhaps the long gun should be stored in a safe in that mashalling room.
John, the black shirts don't marry well with black guns in your videos. Need a contrast color
Fair enough.
Mossberg 590
Solid choice.
The reasoning you presented makes sense, but the totality of the topic at hand is not discussed. How many intruders? how many doorways, hallways, and corners in the house? Who is in the other rooms of the house? Can your spouse and kids use it effectively as a home defense weapon as well, or just you?
I'm not arguing the severity a shotgun can have on the human body, but more so everything that goes into being a home defense. weapon.
There are many different levels of shooters, and all levels of shooters would be more efficient with a semi-auto rifle platform (really mean AR platform).
At the end of the day it's a 'which cereal is better' and I love all fucking cereals.
Females I know would much rather use a carbine than the shotgun, recoil being their main complaint. It shows when they shoot, they can keep the carbine on point and in the kill zone while the shotgun produces poor follow up shots.
I don't disagree, but learning proper push-pull technique mitigates a LOT of that.
Active Self Protection Extra
I am speaking only for the females I know. It is really hard to get them past the recoil, especially with heavier self defense loads, and if you're not using the heavier loads you are kind of defeating the the purpose of using the shotgun. Just my observations, and a small sample size, your mileage may vary!
They generally like the short AR, 10.5 - 12.5 " barrels and even with the 68-77gr bullets.
If you put them on a table and let them choose, it's the AR. Especially if they have fired the shotgun beforehand.
In a realistic home invasion..... It would be more than 1 armed intruders. If you have 5 shot with 4 intruders.... I doubt you could stop them with a shotgun given the circumstance. A carbine 30 rounds would definitely be more reliable in home defense
Except the standard response with a carbine is 5-7 shots. So you have about 5 bad guys worth of ammo in the mag.
@@ASPextra *laughs with my mag coupler having 60 rounds on deck*
And where is your Surefire light mounted young man?
On Dyrnwyn, my carbine, of course. Just got the Beretta.
Let me start with I love the shotgun, but your shot calculations are a bit off. 5 shots from the ar 15 gives you about 6200 foot pounds of energy. Two shots of buckshot gives you about 4200 foot pounds of energy. Now take into account that lead pellets only make round holes and the 556 fragments, tumbles, and expands. It’s a little different wound characteristics
FPE is not the marker of stopping a threat in that calculation.
Two Uzis
PREACH. Shotguns are still relevant and people don't pay enough attention to their capabilities.
If some thug stops his car 175 yards up the road and starts shooting up your house. You might need a little more reach than a shotgun has.
Just sayin, because twice in my life, I've had .22 RF bullets flying close by my head, that were fired from about 150 to 300 yards away. Shots were fired from here: 29°21'54.4"N 100°49'58.3"W (into an old house abt1960). The second time, from here: 42°31'10.4"N 71°14'27.9"W while I was walking downrange at the gun club across the river from the shooter, who was about 300 yards away. It was group of us, just walking out to change some paper targets. I was the first one to drive into the mud, I'm proud to say! LOL!
Richard Lee well yeah. I need to take a 1,000yd shot, a shotgun is a bad choice too. It’s devastating at its effective distances- have the right tool for the job.
@@XRinger Did the shooters ever get in trouble for shooting at you?
@@JR-pr1xh The idiots down in Texas were shooting into the home of an elderly lady (a relative) the day before. We just happen to be there when they came back and started shooting into the house again. We poured out of the house in two groups to flank them. The whole area was flatland, so they saw what we were doing and ran directly away from us, into the desert. We followed them at a distance, since we weren't armed. After we hounded them for about an hour, they dropped into a deep gully and ran west, back to their car. We were about 100 yards behind them when they made their getaway. Never found out who they were. We only knew they were two young Mexican boys with .22 rifles.
The idiot that shot across the river at the gun club may have been shooting at our paper targets on the 100 or 200 yard frames. The bullets were low, because they were whistling just over our heads. He might not have seen us, but he sure heard us! He was in his car racing back to the Middlesex Turnpike right after we all started yelling threats at him..
Ahh , no clues !
You ignored the ease of maneuvering with a handgun. I agree that a shotgun is the way t9 go for most people, but a full size handgun with 17 self defense rounds is a solid choice.
And I said it wasn't wrong. But a short overall length long gun isn't really any different than a handgun in maneuverability, and the chance of clearing your house like a ninja is minuscule.
This is why there is this action called "training"...doesn't matter what kind of gun you use, you should train with it, maneuver around the house with it (make sure it's unloaded and safe obviously) to get a feel of it and how to maneuver corners and doorways. However if it's possible to not leave the room, then don't! Better off keeping the muzzle on the door with 911 on the phone, let the invader come to you. If you have a family with kids and such, you should have a plan and everyone should know their role for this kind of situation as well as other life threatening situations like a house fire, tornado, ect...
I would choose a pump action with extended tube. Mossberg, cz, or Remington. Absolutely need iron sights, and side saddle
a good Remington with pistol grip, lights and laser is my home defense.
So the only issue I have is with your source of information on 5.56 ammo. NATO green tips suck for stopping people. THAT'S why modern doctrine is to shoot 5 or 6 rounds whereas good old M193 or a .223 load would be far more effective in 2 or 3 rounds if that.
I disagree, honestly. 5 is what is taught for a reason, even with LE in the US using the best ammo around.
@@ASPextra Wow. I appreciate you replying. I've been a fan of your channels for a while now. However I really do believe that M855 is a weak defensive round which contributes to the poor reputation of 5.56/.223 as a whole. Anecdotally, the M16 in Vietnam had a reputation for doing massive damage to people even though the rifles were troublesome. While not the most scientific thing, Paul Harell did some demonstrations on M855 vs M193 which i believe highlight my point. I'm not saying it would never be necessary to shoot 5 or more rounds of better ammo but that it may not be necessary to shoot 5 as a standard. Again thanks for taking the time to discuss this. I really do appreciate your work.
th-cam.com/video/bKQizbg1zBw/w-d-xo.html
You use your pistol to fight to get to your shotgun
PCC
cant agree , but to each his own. 5 hits from military grade 5.56 will do the job and 30 til reload required.
where does one get the cat ears?
I ask as I am trash and want to be the most kawaii on the range.
www.weaponoutfitters.com/hardcore-tactics-nekomimi.html