ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ค. 2024
- Well the time has come. Time to finally talk about Amazon Prime's Wheel of Time Season 2. I had a few days to actually synthesize how I felt, and I figured out that despite loving a lot of individual scenes in the show, the overall narrative is still struggling to make a cohesive story. Tell me your thoughts on season 2 below!
Chapters
00:00 - One sentence: what I thought
02:02 - The great individual scenes
05:43 - How it struggles with overall narrative
11:16 - Refusing to acknowledge male characters
17:55 - The rewrite
31:19 - Being petty for a minute
33:04 - "but it only had 8 episodes"
34:11 - Overall thoughts
Mentioned videos
Hermione/Ron video: • Harry Potter and the D...
Strong female character vid: • The anatomy of the "st...
Other WOT Show videos:
Episode 1: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 2: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 3: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 4: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 5: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 6: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 7: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Episode 8: • S2: Wheel of Time show...
Links
Instagram: / bookborn.reviews - บันเทิง
"The show relies on book reader knowledge while simultaneously alienating us!" Oh, snap! That's freakin' perfect.
Yeah, my wife hasn't read the books ad attempted to watch the show with me. She was constantly having to ask :"Who the hell is that?" "What are they doing, what's that mean, what is going on?" I realized I could only follow the show because I read the books.
Yeah, when Loial claimed , _"no-one is stronger than Egwene"_ , I was like, wait, what?!?! Loial and Egwene barely had any interactions in the show, lol. What little time they spent together was in the Ways, and there Egwene admitted that she could barely channel and later she apologized for channeling by mistake (although it was Rand who actually channeled). The show did absolutely nothing to establish Loial's confidence in Egwene's supposed iron-will. All "tell" and no "show", I'm afraid.
It's funny, it's an inconsistency I didn't notice, but someone pointed out that somehow everyone knows what everyone else is doing/who they are. I think this is another example of this. Loial and Egwene really don't have a relationship in the show...
Loial also seems to have had previous interactions with Elaine, as he was able to immediately recognize her as the Daughter Heir even in disguise...?!
Loial had essentially no interaction with Egwene in the books either, but RJ didn't forget that :)
The biggest problem is that Rand is getting buried. They want him to just be part of an ensemble when the entire narrative is supposed to be centered on him. In both finales he falls flat as if they refuse to show that he is supposed to be the most powerful. Egwyene and Moraine looked way more powerful in the finale which is an anathema to the source material.
In terms of character interest/importance in the show, I'd order it: 1. Egwene, 2. Moraine, 3. Nynaeve, 4. Mat, 5. Perrin, 6. Liandrin, 7. Lan. 8. Rand. They managed to make the most important person in the world, the 8th most interesting character in the show. It's a travesty. He's completely helpless in the show. In the books, even before he starts displaying his true power, he still displays great moments of leadership, intelligence, bravery, etc.... He's a whiney, helpless little child in the show who has no idea what he's doing and need to be saved by lesser characters constantly.
What a complete load of crap that is. Rand is nowhere near 8.
But Rands character in the book is so bad till he becomes one with Lews. He just runs away or cries about everything. Then just does something cool, then runs away again. Im glad Rand is taking a step back in the show. The Aes Sedai civil war is so much of a better storyline than all the philandering Rand does. Im sure they will make him the central focus when its time for the final 3 seasons.
@@FLASK904thats completely inaccurate Rand only ran away in great hunt, by Dragon Reborn he was carving his own destiny, and besides him struggling with the realization he can channel/doomed to madness and simultaneously being the chosen one that saves and breaks the world should be something that is difficult for him to come to grips with. Rand was butchered by the show and theres no way to walk it back without retconning the first two seasons at this point.
@JeffPenaify Meh. Disagree. Youre entitled to your opinion.
In terms of adaptation, The Expanse made several changes to the book storyline as well. And all the book fans (me included) loved it! Because it was made well. And did not destroy characters just to prop up others. And remained coherent to book fans and non-readers alike. This show is impossible for non-readers to grasp and just makes readers angry.
Not exactly true. It's one of Amazon's most popular shows. Some small confusing stuff here and there for non readers but they still enjoy it
@@ndo533 I disagree the expanse adaptation was done perfectly, up until the last season. When comparing to WoT its hard to find moments which match what happened in the book and that still contextually make sense in the story they are telling, sometimes I think the producer is a little kid who thinks a certain scene would look cool instead of caring about the overall story. Another adaptation is Game of thrones (again not the final seasons) which we can compare to WoT, what made GOT so good was all the character arcs which all were in isolation however there were no pointless characters, every arc was to progress the overall plot of the story and make you invested in the characters. You can tell Rafe and his team are not experienced enough to be producing this show as its not polished, they have scenes which dont make sense and with such a large world like WoT, they shouldnt be making the errors they are making.
I think the whole season 1 mystery of who the dragon was really hurt Rand’s character development. As we didn’t get a chance for him to see him dealing with being the dragon reborn. Also the mystery delayed us from seeing the scene where Rand discovers that Tam wasn’t his biological father. Which means we didn’t get to see Rand really processing this. So now in season 2 we’re seeing the lack of development of him as a character.
one HUNDRED percent!!! I said that in my season 1 review. The mystery box hurt the show SO MUCH because it didn't allow them to develop rand at all, without it being obvious who it was (but FYI - all my non-book reader friends guessed it was Rand anyway.) If they really wanted it to be a mystery, I think they should've only done it for half the season, and have it be the mid-season reveal.
You know what''s worse now? It appears he's already incorporated Lews Therin with nary a care or worry. That puts paid to book six, if memory serves.
Book Rand only starts dealing with being the DR in book 2. In book 1, he is only worried about being a _male channeler_ and Moiraine never tells them anything of her true goals, not until the very last moment, when the banner is exposed. Season 1 fast-tracked that in ep 1, but then decided to ignore the topic till ep 7 where the mystery was promptly resolved and off we go to kill the DO. Season 2 is mostly continuing with the same momentum: state some things in the first episode, ignore them all season, remember them in ep 7, and force-resolve in ep 8.
@@bidossessi I've said this before but, to me, Rand isn't really a character in the show. He is pretty much a plot device. After watching the season finale, I asked my wife (never read the books) who she thought the story is about. She said she just figured that the Dragon is the combination of the 5 of them at the end.
I only started reading eye of the world a couple of weeks ago. When I watched season 1 as it came out, I guessed Rand was the dragon in the first episode, mostly because of his name 😅
I agree with your sentiments about One Piece. I am a fan of both OP and WoT.
When the OP adaptation was announced, I thought there was no way it was going to be good. OP is just so absurdist and over the top, that it would either be lifeless and hollow or overly cheesy and dumb. Yet they managed to pull it off by leaning way harder onto the source material than I thought possible. They are going for it so hard, whether that being the acting performances, the script writing, the costuming or the set design, that I was willing to forgive the missteps that are there. They focused on the core characters and included many of the pivotal moments from the original Manga.
In comparison, the WoT show feels embarassed of its source material. Can't do the battle in the sky, that is cheesy. Can't do crazy, ranting Ishamael that is not believable. Can't do in universe swear words, people will not take the show seriously. Can't have Mat have his quaterstaff duel, gotta build up to that, so audiences will buy it. The list goes on and on. Instead, the show writers try to remix some of the general ideas and plot points in an attempt to tell a better story. The result is a show that is more akin to late season GoT with a lot of the same trappings. Instant fast travel, battle tactics that make no sense, completely inconsistent magic systems, confused character motivation, tons of "and then" storytelling, all the conflict is focused on interpersonal drama etc.
Wow, this is SUCH A GOOD POINT!! I didn't even think of the connection of how One Piece could've been embarrassed of its source material and trying to make it "more believable" or whatever, but instead they leaned in hard to what it was and that's why it was AMAZING.
This!!!! I love how almost all of OP fan’s seems to really be happy and excited about how it was done and all the new OP fans there are. Where wot fans, if being really truthful, have to be disappointed how it’s been adapted from the book
I was happy to hear that she likes One Piece Live Action.
@@Bookborn Because the original author retained creative control and, umm, insisted. And the result was magical, hilarious, scary and just plain amazing fun.
At least GOT has the valid excuse that the books are 12 years late. WOT has no excuse, they literally have 14 books!
Woah you totally right. I couldn't put a pin on why Egwene and Moirraines adaptation is off for me and it's completely because the writers are so desperately trying to make them the main characters and it is absolutely hurting both characters. It is completely fine to have side characters. In fact they are needed. I loved book Moirraine especially because her chapters/scenes were used so sparingly so it was almost like a treat. The draw of Egwenes character is that she's an active agent of her own story, unlike the boys she is not chosen by destiny but rather she chooses herself-that right there is just so much more compelling.
But in the book I don't think Rand had much to do in it and just did a lot of hiding. The great hunt was literally all the other characters storylines
Might I add : they became essentially villains, killing ruthlessly out of rage (Egwene) or just a lack of respect for a normal human life (Moraine)
I don't think any of the female protagonists deserve sympathy in the show while in the books they always kept the moral high ground.
I mean book Moiraine was my favorite character so I lived for her moments 🤣 But yeah, this is actually something I see a lot even OUTSIDE of adaptations. Disney has this issue where they take a beloved side character and then make them the main character for the next movie. More often than not, these movies aren't good. Sometimes side characters are side characters and that's the perfect place in the story. Tbh, it's pretty common for people's favorite characters to not be the main character.
@@streampunksheep No, that's not true. The Great Hunt has him, Mat, & Perrin with the Shienarans pursuing Padan Fain & the Horn, then Rand, Loial, & Hurin get shunted off to that alternate world for a bit. Are you thinking of The Dragon Reborn where Rand is running about from Moiraine and toward Tear to draw Callandor while dodging Darkfriends & shadowspawn? He doesn't have a lot of scenes in that book until the tail end ...
TGH was a ton of Rand, Mat, Perrin and Verin. They were...hunting for the horn of valere and the dagger. @@streampunksheep
Er... the whole point of the Accepted Test in the book, was that they had to turn their backs on everything they thought they wanted. Her last challenge was to run away from a horrible life where everyone she cared for had been killed and she was about to get killed.. why would she want to stay in that life?.. in the books she had the perfect life where nothing apparently was going to go wrong, and she still snapped out of it, called the gateway back and left that perfect life behind. The show COMPLETELY missed the point.
she had a KID there man
@@armanpetrosyants1414 She did...and tried to take her with her instead of giving her up...once again completely missing the point of the test.
Yeap. Absolutely gobsmacked at the lack of criticism here.
The show completely missed all the points of everything.
It even missed the point of epic high fantasy, which is mainly about telling the story of heroic heroes against villainous villains
In the third test, what she turns her back on is being an Aes Sedai, which is not something she realized she wanted until she lived an entire life with Lan inside the test.
Soo much about Rand is missing even the flame and the void that was taught by his father is missing, poor Perin killing a WIFE of all things, Mat doesn't even have his hat and so much more when it comes to the male characters. Even my wife, who hasn't read the books, keeps asking who is the main character and why are these men always crying lol.
The Shadow Rising 🤘@@teleportrings6791
Lol this show has all the craftiness and subtly of Karen Jean-Pear
They've managed to make the Dragon reborn the 7-8th most interesting character. That by itself is s sign the show screwed it up. Rand is basically worthless/helpless in the show.
He's behind Egwene, Nynaeve, Moraine, Mat, Perrin and I'd argue Lan and Liandrin too. They neutered him in the show. The main heros are Egwene and Moraine.
Mat now got the great generals memories by blowing the horn, the ashandarei by taping the knife to a stick and the medallion against magic in form of the shield Uno hands Perrin. Thus no storyline with him and Rand going to Rhuidean and meeting the Aelfin and Elfin.
Look. I know you are right. But I cannot let go of the fact we won't get Rhuidean 😭That's where Mat becomes...Mat!!! I'm living in my dream world that it'll still happen.
@@Bookbornbut by not having it, they can't butcher it! Count your blessings
The Rhuidean storyline was so good 😢
Rhuidean will remain, but for Rand, not Matt (almost certain). Matt will hunt the bowl with the girls (making it up)
"in form of the shield Uno hands Perrin" I didn't even consider thats its worse then I thought
I am such a WOT fan that I will always watch my all time fav books being on screen.
But
The show has some massive problems and I wish it respected the source material more... you know the material that was good enough to have a massively popular book series and then be picked to adapt to TV? But Rafe knows better I guess, what with his illustrious career of mediocrity to back him up.
It sucks because this was the chance - there will never be a redo. So this is what we have.
- Matt's story is ruined
- Rand is a side story
- Women in the WOT already have strong and wonderful characters. A sign of the times they thought they needed to take this further. And in the process have gone overboard.
- Moiraine just nuked a bunch of people on those boats in complete violation of the 3 oaths. No worries.
- Why the F did Perrin have a wife in season 1?
- Why did we spend so long on warder drama in Season 1 and Season 2.
Urgh.
"which his illustrious career of mediocricy to back him up" 🔥 OUCH lmaooooo
@@Bookborn hey, you told me to go for it in the comments
Respect is earned. I don't think Jordans writing translates to the screen well.
How could we know?@@davidbowles7281
> " his illustrious career of mediocracy to back him up"
Sorry about the pedantry - it's _"mediocrity"_ , not "mediocracy".
But other than that, completely valid points. Judkins is a talentless hack who thinks he knows better than Robert Jordan.
When it comes to adaptations, Peter Jackson's LOTR and the first five seasons of Benioff & Weiss's GOT are the gold standard - they streamline and condense while retaining the core of the narrative as well as the characters, without injecting their own political agenda and ideologies into the story.
Your idea of Rand's and Ishy's one power collapsing on each other is gorgeous.
Like imagine, it's a very dark night ! People know there is a fight in the top of the tower ! An exchange of lightning and fireballs.
From the people below, they would just see like a spark flash of a dragon everytime the one power collapses between the two.
That would have been more epic, at that would introduce way better the dragon prophecized.
I love the idea !
Thank you lol but mostly I just think...almost ANYTHING to make that fight more epic would've worked haha. Most anti-climatic thing ever
@@Bookborn Also the Book fight took place in the Mist caused by the Blowing of the Horn. So you have Rand and Ishy face off in their climatic duel of sword and staff. Rand taking the hit to deal the 'killing' blow to ishy. And then do whatever you want for what the townsfolks see! Like a raven and a dragon fighting or something.
And then you don't have to change -anything- from the source material.
One of the biggest problems with the writing is NO ONE is allowed to talk about what they’re feeling or thinking or even care about! I’m in book 4 and their hometown is in trouble, everyone is telling you how much it effects them! My favorite ogire is going off about how his mom is gonna marry him off if she finds him. It’s fun!
YES this is what I was trying to say with the Rand thing, like nobody is really talking about how they feel about each other or what's going on or at least showing it; so the characters feel more shallow because they don't have a world outside of what is directly happening on screen.
@@Bookborn and yet somehow, everyone knows almost everything that happens on screen - even if they weren't there.
I mean, when did anyone learn Egwene could channel? When did anyone (aside from Egwene) learn Nynaeve could channel?
When did Rand realize he could channel? Or that he was the Dragon Reborn? Because the answer there could make him an absolutely terrible person, repeatedly throwing Mat under the bus, leaving his friends fearing for their lives, and sleeping with Egwene under false pretenses.
When did Rand realize Mat had the dagger? When did Egwene hear about Mat's dagger? She seems to know about it in 107, but she's only had time to talk to Nynaeve, who also may have never known about it. She's never had a moment to talk to Rand or Mat - but seems to understand the general concept of and impact from the dagger.
When did Perrin decide to follow the Way of the Leaf? Why did he decide to follow it when there was plenty of reason not to? What were his friends reactions to learning their friend (who might have been fated to fight the Dark One himself) was a pacifist?
I could go on and on.
@@jeremyvanneman8112 even a 20 year old country lout would gape at towns/cities with buildings the size of their town square. These are well traveled, well educated people who behave with the maturity and social grace of 13 year olds.
To say I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment.
Agreed. And NO ONE mentions the state of the world (unnatural weather, drought, wars...) which totally robs us of the sense of momentous events coming to a head on a huge scale.
I'm guessing they will "tell us" that things are bad (maybe another of Siuan's dreams or another lady from Cairhien 😏) when the time comes to go look for the next macguffin
@@bidossessi well, they do talk about wars in season 1 episode 4. Mr Grinwell at the Grinwell farm talks about soldiers from "the rebellion." And Aram talked about soldiers"down south."
Of course, I have no idea what they're talking about. We never learned of a rebellion in Murandy (which is south of where they are). I guess they're trying to say it's Logain's army... But Ghealdan is far more west than it is south, and the army attacks the Aes Sedai before they get to the east side of the river. The Grinwell farm and Aram are both days east of the river. But then the writers have never been very good at geography.
And the entire plot line of those soldiers (if not the Ghealdan army) is completely dropped.
And they definitely don't mention unnatural weather.
But nyneave didn't even sacrifice anything in the trials. Lan was already dead and her daughter was rescued through the arc. The arc also appeared a second time for no reason.
The arc randomly appearing a second time bugged me so much. In the books, not only does she choose to turn away from a life with Lan, she actively forces the arc to re-open, pretty much through sheer stubbornness. It's such a big reflection on the character. In the series it's just a convenient way out that randomlyshows up when all other options are exhausted.
One of the biggest issues with the show i have is Rafe saying he was tired of seeing sky battles in movies and tv growing up. couldn't find a single example of an actual sky battle. so he puts it on a tower where absolutely nobody can see whats going on. they have characters that should have been off doing other things taking on the big bad again where nobody can see whats happening. then you have all the townsfolk that were running for their lives suddenly start cheering becuase a big fiery dragon wraps itself around a tower apparently for no reason. then you have Rand waving as if standing in the middle of the tower they can see each other.
Wait what article does he say he doesn't like sky battles? That would've reduced my expectations for episode 8 in a good way perhaps 🤣I tried to google fantasy sky battles and nothing came up. Help, someone reading this: name another fantasy sky battle! I can't think of one either lol
@@Bookborn it was an audio interview with the youtube channel "The Character sheet". you could blatanly hear that it was an excuse to cover the fact they wasted too much money on non book stuff to complete the actual book stuff.
Also drinking laced tea and tying a dagger to a stick is within Mats core character as well.
I think he lies. There is no sky battle in any TV shows. And I doubt they even have the budget to do the battle justice.
@@CosmoLav they had the budget but he wasted it on stuff that were not relevant to the story. ntm rafe does not know fantasy never working in such till now so that is why it was so CW in nature.
@@CosmoLav Rafe provably lies on multiple occasions. I don't want to imply he's a bad person overall, but let's just say "creative exaggerations" are not something he has a problem with.
2:30 - Nynaeve's Acceptance Test...
It's well done in a lot of ways... but also completely misses the fundamental purpose in 2 of the 3 phases...
It doesn't make Nynaeve CHOOSE between normal life or Aes Sedai... and even in the other case, with Tam, there's nothing she CAN do for him... so she chooses to go get help instead of sitting there and watching him die.
Not a hard choice.
The implications of Nyn's Test... is that EVERY Aes Sedai went through this or something like it... chose to let people die, just so that THEY could become an Aes Sedai.
Among other things, it tells you that EVERY Aes Sedai has the potential to be both ruthless and selfish... even narcissistic... or even sociopaths.
It foreshadows the Black Ajah... or expands on how./why the White Tower is so susceptible to it.
It explains how/why the Aes Sedai are often distrusted by pretty much everyone who doesn't need their battle/healing abilities at the Border.
So I actually talked about that in the episode review! I said it was an emotionally impactful scene but particularly the end, I wish the trollocs hadn't shown up. It would've been much more impactful for her to give up her happy life than a life that was destroyed.
@@Bookborn Simply symptomatic of the show's perverse inclination to create violent and cynical trauma for characters. Perrin killing his wife. Matt's womanizing scoundrel father and drunkard mother. The showrunners do not understand where drama comes from. Murdering her whole family brutally is more emotionally dramatic to them than choosing to give up that which you want so much in order to do what you know to be right -- it was heroic for Nyneave (and all Aes Sedai) to give up on the things she wanted so much in exchange for not turning her back on the world. They are allergic to heroism in nearly all its forms, but they sure do love trauma.
Solid. Rather than point out the inconsistencies with the book lore, this points out the inconsistencies of the show itself
The reducing of the male characters really hit home for me and you nailed it. Reducing the male characters' involvement and competence to prop up female characters insults both. Rand has barely a character arc, and he's moved around by Lanfear and Moiraine. His little agency was taken away when we find out that even his choice to seek out Loghain was engineered by Moiraine, then he is herded to Falme. At the end, despite all the flash with channeling, he just stabs Ishamael. No complex character interactions with the guys. Perrin was a wuss, with no character arc as you said. Mat's heroes of the horn moment was so poorly handled. And Lan just hurt. What a waste. Daniel Henney deserved more. Love Ishamael though, his nihilism was well handled, but even he was shafted because how can Egwene stand up to a Chosen? I'm starting to get how Rafe's love for Egwene is ruining other characters as you point out.
I forgot that it was stated Moiraine orchestrated the Logaine thing 😭 And hey, they could've even made him being pushed around and not having agency a part of his plot - a part of what makes him get obstinate and angry! But...they are just uninterested in exploring who he is and why he is, unfortunately.
I agree. But while they propped up the female characters in some ways, they also reduced them. Moiraine is now dumb and infantile instead of intelligent and strategic. And Nynaeve in Falme wasn't smart and proactive like she was in the books. They made her useless.
@@Bookborn interestingly, in the second part of the show, it felt less like they were taking away from male characters and more like they were taking away from ALL protagonists to prop up Egwene. Look at Elayne's character - I think Stradowski's line sums it up when he says 'who are you'. The choices made in the last episode completely destroyed a potentially promising dynamic between the three women by allowing Egwene to somehow escape by herself. They set up this possibility throughout almost half the season...Elayne learning about the a'dam, Nynaeve collaring a sul'dam and then the payoff would have been a deep insight into how much these three women trust and rely on each other. Instead we see Nynaeve and Elayne as agentless side characters in Egwene's show.
Rand is moved around in exactly this way in the books!! When he regains Lews Therin's memories he becomes unstoppable.
Rand is a 20-year-old kid in the first couple seasons dealing with 3000-year-old Lanfear and a 70-year-old Moraine.
It wouldn't be much of a series if he was all-knowing right away.
@@Bookborn Actually that storyline highlights a minor plothole(?) in the books: Moiraine and Siuan apparently never had a plan how to teach Rand to channel. Its Lanfear who brings in Asmodean and Moiraine writes in her letter that "while I cannot approve, I understand. Maybe its the only way". While I have my issues with a stilled channeler trying to teach Rand, at least there is a plan.
If you think your opinion that Aviendha shouldn't be in the show is controversial, then you're going to love mine...Loial shouldn't be in this show. His character serves no purpose. They don't need him to open the way gates or travel the ways. He's just hanging around. They didn't even give him his "writing a book about the dragon reborn" storyline. He's basically a prop in the show. Oh, and he looks ridiculous. If you are going to put a character in a wig, why choose THAT WIG!🤣
100%
ok but you are objectively right. Again, he's a character who is there for the book people without really doing anything!
Now that you mention it, he really doesn't do anything. The wig really is ridiculous and the acting comes off as really wooden.
I've had the same thought. To run the story they want to run, they needed to pair down the cast a lot. Min probably shouldn't be around either. Considering they aren't going to give Matt any actual character arcs, they probably could have combined him with Perrin. It feels so weird to say it, but its true.
If he is going to be on the show ww need to set his ears!
I think the biggest problem this series has all boils down to Rafe's desire to fundamentally shift the story away from being centered on Rand and making it more centered on an ensemble cast. The supporting characters are critical, but RAND is the dragon reborn, and he is the main, most important character. Rafe's choices to deemphasize this have spiraled to dilute the story in many impactful ways.
The final showdown with Ishamael this season is emblematic of this. It was very Harry Potter in that Rand actually had very little to do with the fight while his friends took care of most of the business. Rand and Ishy should have had a serious, public fight that all could see, and Rand should have come out on top.
This is the core of my problem with the adaptation - Rafe's inexplicable decisions.
This show also suffers badly from only having 8 episodes per season.
Otherwise, I have enjoyed this season.
I think you've hit on a crux of the problem - the small decisions don't seem big in the beginning, but many of them have had unfortunate consequences as the story unfolds. I noticed this a lot writing this review: there were decisions made in season 1 that I didn't agree with that are still deeply affecting season 2.
It is not "inexplicable". They hate the story is about a male main character so they de-emphasize him at every opportunity. It really is that easy.
The story is not centered on Rand. EoTW was. Rand isn't even in TDR. RJ added a bunch of superfluous plot lines that didn't really do anything. Luc? Fain? Berelain? The Sea Folk? Demandred (aside from a little at the end?). And let's really be clear here. Rand kinda sucks as a character until like book 13. Do you want a grouchy, petulant man-child running around talking to himself and counting names of the dead the whole show?
I guess the good news is that Amazon didn't ask any of us to run this show. There is a reason why it took this long for _someone_ to try to adapt it, and with curmudgeons like you all whining all the time, it will be the last. If Amazon cancels it, say goodbye to another adaptation.
@@naeblisss Rand isn't THE main character, but he is A main character... and yes, the ENTIRE story centers around him.
If he were a chess-piece, he'd be the king.
If he dies, gets turned, or gets burned-out... END of it ALL.
No more Pattern, no more Wheel, no more Ages... just dead "universes" like those seen through the Portal Stones where the Dark One won.
As for superfluous plot lines...
YES, Robert Jordan added them... and thanks to Tor and Harriet, he had that luxury... and due to his illness, he and Harriet almost certainly had the NEED... in order to pay their bills.
Rafe Judkins doesn't have that excuse... and he DOES have a limit which was set... in advance.
HIS wasting time on ridiculous teen angst drama crap like Nynaeve & Liandrin, and Siuan & Moiraine's drama, and Moraine's & Lan's drama is inexcusable under the circumstances.
I refuse to believe that Rafe is "God's gift" to WoT fans.
Cheers,
PROUD Curmudgeon.
@@naeblisssthat last part sounds a lot like Stockholm Syndrome to me.
Also while Rand might not be there physically in most of the book, his actions and his motivations are the main driving point. Without Rand book 3 would not be the same.
A symptom of the show. You have 8 episodes. Why cast Turak? His only reason for existing is a plot device for Rand to level up. If you are going to cut the sword fight, why do you cast Turak. What did he do other than order Suroth a manicure?
Yep. It turns out his only purpose was to make a silly Indiana Jones moment possible.
8 episodes is about 400 minutes of show time. The Return of the King director’s cut is 250 minutes long. There was plenty of time to do justice to the story and, more importantly IMO, the characters. The adaptation just feels a bit spiteful to me.
@@bigjonS4 100%. This is what I've been preaching. Yet we get strawmanned about wanting page for page. I believe that with clever writing, we can get two books per season and remaining faithful to the story
I mean, you do need side characters! We could say that about almost anyone. If anything, I think he had a decent presence - we knew he was a leader of the invading force and dangerous, and had the horn. Sure, they could've had a few more scenes with him (easy to do if they nuked the warder storyline) but there will always be some side characters in shows that don't have full time
He established that the seanchan are against the shadow and that Suroth/ishy being a darkfriend is secret. Idk seems obvious.
I just can’t stand how far they went off the rails from the books. They created extra story lines for no reason.
That's me too. Ruined way too many characters...
Some where ok tho, for example Liandrin, Anvare, Forsaken (their extraction, sealing Forsaken)
Some of these are going to create big problems though. They've built up Liandrin to be a significant character, but we all know her arc is on its way down. So its either going to be an unceremonious end to a character that deserved more or we're going to get more story bloat in a story with too few episodes. The sealing of the Forsaken is an even bigger problem. That the good guys were winning so hard in the War of the Shadow back in the Age of Legends that they were able to systematically capture each and every Forsaken individually and seal them away greatly diminishes the threat of the big bad. Where in the books Lews Therin takes a desperate gamble in the face of imminent defeat that ends up having terrible consequences, we now have just the pure "arrogance of men". The good guys won handedly last time, they should do so again. No drama. @@trashak3
Same. It’s like they just threw out all the material that Jordan provided them.
Some of the things they explore that aren't in the book are interesting; Liandrin, how they are handling the Forsaken...but it falls flat since the meat of the story is being ignored.
One thing is certain. Your "strong female" character video is the gift that keeps giving. It helped me a lot with my own writing.
Thank you 🥹 That means a lot
can you imagine 10-12 episodes?! you're insane, we'd get Moiraine arguing with Lan for 2 more episodes, and 2 other episodes spending/not-spending time with her nephew and sister, being a complete bitch to them or arguing with Siuan or other Aes Sedai... Nah.. nope.. no.. pls no..
lmao that's what I was trying to say 😭 Like in THEORY more episodes makes sense for the Wheel of Time, you know? But...they don't seem capable of using the time wisely 💀
I wish I could say they deserve more episodes but its clear what Rafe would do with them. :(
this is unfortunately true. so much of what is in the show already is so pointless. lan and moiraine didn't even need to be in this season
10-12 episodes with writers and a show runner that actually like the books would be fantastic
Plot twist for Season 3 - Because Moiraine was the one to create a Dragon on the tower with the One Power - something perhaps many other Aes Sedai could also whip up - Rand is a FALSE DRAGON and the real Dragon Reborn will be ... Egwene 😛 Jokes aside, I really have enjoyed your Wheel of Time videos and do hope when Season 3 does come to pass, that you will continue holding the WoT torch high.
I mean it does feel like he's a false dragon right? What has Rand so far done that's different from Logain? The only thing that kinda makes him the dragon is the prophecy, but then again that could also apply to Egwene or Nynaeve now according to the show...
@@hellgast0 especially when they haven't mentioned the prophecy i mean that heron brand on his palm means bugger all since they haven't mentioned it in the books, it only proves that rand doesn't know how to hold a sword when stabbing a person from a distance :|
I could totally see this showrunner wanting to upset the narrative in this manner
I mean, at least if they did that I could finally divorce myself from the books and be like "oh this is different" (looking on the bright side 🤪)
I think that's actually a fair assumption because up to now the show has never explained WHY Rand is the 🐉, and since they've now established that Min's visions can be misconstrued, it's pretty much open bar for me.
I personally hope you do review season 3 when it's released. As a major fan of the books, I don't really have anyone else to talk to about the differences with, so it's nice hearing someone else's perspective. Also, I like to rewrite thing that you do at the end of the season.
Right now I'm fatigued, but if it's really two years until season 3, I'll probably get over it 🤣
I have many many issues with the show, but one of them is how much the show wants to subvert expectations.
It's a terrible trend that has been happening in entertainment lately (maybe a good topic for a video discussion? 🤔).
It can work in some cases, but more often than not it gets annoying. Every time your expectations get subverted to me it feels like you can't get invested in or connected to the story and characters.
Ok, that's such an interesting observation! There's a reason we've had story structures since the beginning of time...some story archetypes just work very well...
We're getting to the point where "subverting my expectations" means something will actually be good.
@@Bookborn "Subverting expectations" = nihilism... deconstruction... destroying what BETTER people created... hate-fiction... "I want to tell YOUR story MY way (narcissism, egotism)"... "crapping on the fans"... or the old joke about:
"This isn't Burger King.
You don't get it YOUR way.
You TAKE it, MY way...
OR you don't get it at all."
@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t
With regards to WoT: Excellent point!!! 😂
@nyetzdyec3391 - we could only wish!! This show is a hostage being held and tortured and forcibly turned to the shadow in front of everyone who loves the story.
It would be amazing at this point if we could get an instant halt to filming and destruction of anything unreleased to this point.
I stopped hate-watching before season 1 ended. Amazon is probably getting 7-15% of the audience they want but that is enough for them to keep going.
If we had only 20-30 people watching each episode to give truthful reviews it would end. It needs to end 😩 lol
The longer this goes on, the longer it will be until we see a real adaptation- of anyone is ever even tempted to touch it again after this
One of the worst examples of empty book-fan service in this show is Mat yelling "It's Time to Toss the Dice" in the Old Tongue before charging with the Heroes. For starters, it's not even the right yell. If Mat was remembering his past lives he would have yelled the Battle Cry of Manatheren "Carai an Ellisande!, for the honor of the Rose of the Sun!'". The show never establishes the dice in Mat's head, or his reputation as a gambler and scamp. So his yelling this phrase makes no sense to his character, and would be meaningless to anyone who hasn't read the books since it's in a different language. It was so pointless, and I audibly groaned when it happened on screen.
And yet people on wot Reddit were practically creaming their pants because ‘he said the thing!’ 🤮
@@bigjonS4 They are desperate for the "member berries"... and will make any excuse for the show's many failings.
It's so sad to me they haven't done the luck thing yet. It's def weird they had him yell that phrase, especially since they have framed his gambling as a huge issue/dark this entire time lol
@@Bookbornit’s just another sop to book readers.
Concerning "Mats past lives": one thing that most people forget (noticable also by many comments for the episode) is that Mat had memories of King Aemon before going to Rhuidean. This is the source where "Carai an Ellisande" comes from (and I was very confused on my first readthrough of EotW why Mat was suddenly yelling in the old tongue). The other memories come from the Eelfin and it is uncertain if those Mats previous lifes or the memories of other people. The show apparently decided to merge these things into one. Given that most readers even forget about the Amon part , why not.
Concerning the dice: its not only the dice, its also Perring connection to the wolfs. Things that happen purely in a characters head, like the dice for Mat, the conversation with the wolfs for Perrin and Lews Therin for Rand are one of the things that are easy in a book but very difficult to do in a show. Thats the reason while in GoT Jamie Lannister did talk about things in the show like his reasons for killing the Mad King that he would never have talked about in the books. There were rumours the show would have the wolfs actually talking to Perrin. At least one terrible idea that we did not see.
Your reviews are awesome. Please do season 3. It's so nice having someone go through each episode.
OMG - I said "Aviendha shouldn't have been in this season!" just yesterday too!! Loved this video. Such good insights! (Edit) - I have yet to convince a single person I know to try the books after they've watched the 2 seasons of the TV show. That makes me SO SAD :(
WoT is a hard sell period usually 😭 They find out its 14 long books and people feel too intimidated to start lol
@Bookborn
Thankfully for me, when I started a few months ago, I didn't know it was 14 books.
Currently on Book 9.
That's the Eragon effect. I've heard Eragon is a good book. The movie was abysmal, and so I never bothered to pick up the book.
We hear a lot that "at least the series got some people to read the book", but we don't hear about the lots of people who will never pick up the books precisely because the series was shit.
@@Bookborn This is just making the one piece and WoT comparison even more apparent in my head because people feel intimated by the fact that the anime is over 1000 episodes long and still going (20 minute or so length episodes but still).
I dropped the show on season 1. Did not even know season 2 started until I saw you first differences videos.
I'm here just because I like hearing your thoughts haha
I think I agree with everything you said. As for Min, have her at the tower to develop her relationship with the gals. If they stick with the romance from the books she needs to be closer to Elayne. Now she is the darkfriend that worked for Liandrin, someone who tried to give Elayne away as a slave.
I think a huge mistake the show makes is the wound Mat gives Rand. In the books it's a "self sacrifice" wound that shows that Rand will do anything to defeat the DO(which he thought it was). Now when it hurts it will be the time his friend accidentally stabbed him.. Even if the other wound comes out of desperation and sacrifice that first wound will still be the "Mat" wound. It really shows what Rand is willing to do when other characters in the books mentions the wound and wonders how Rand can stand it.
Yeah, I think it's interesting. The villains in the show are pretty interesting, but the way they try to make the good guys "more dark" just hasn't worked AT ALL for me. They haven't made them interesting enough to justify their darkness I think lol
Rand was fully healed by a character that had no ability to heal at all in the books, it was just a way to introduce elayne to rand. Again completely ignoring what the shadar logoth dagger is capable of.
@@joshuatempleton9556 I don't think he is fully healed, you can see black around it. But I agree, it's so out of character. From what I remember she can't even heal a black eye on Nyn in the books.
That dagger was death in 3 sec, until it was not.. Why even show everyone else die that fast when you know Rand will be stabbed later.
@@TriggEttan did you forget that ingtar, uno and loilal were all stabbed and showed no sign of it.
it's fully healed how else would he stand up and walk over well enough to stab ishy and walk away from the tower at the end.
@@joshuatempleton9556 Ha, true. But if start listing every time the show go against the book lore or even it's own lore we would be here for a long time.
I really appreciate your review, especially the even criticism and praise. I honestly did not watch season 2, but I watched all of your reviews to see if I would enjoy it or not and get a fair idea of how they were doing.
As a young boy reading this story I was enthralled with the world/politics, the characters, and the expansive story. The main character I connected with though was Rand. The journey Rand goes on was fascinating. He began so innocent, like myself and so many other readers like me at that age. Seeing the man he becomes, the hardness, the decisions between lesser evils, and the conflict really made me wonder what I would have been done projecting myself into his shoes. Part of the beauty of Rand's journey was what the power and expectations of being the chosen one would do to someone. It was so much deeper than most fantasy stories of the time. I feel like it could have been such a compelling story.
Honestly, I find nothing of that story line the show. I look at Rand and he bears no resemblance to the character I loved so much. Unfortunately for me, it's a solid pass. I'm holding out for Brandon Sanderson getting his chance and maintaining more control like Oda did for One Piece. I hope he holds out and gets his chance. I think that could be the next Game of Thrones level series.
> "Honestly, I find nothing of that story line the show. I look at Rand and he bears no resemblance to the character I loved so much. Unfortunately for me, it's a solid pass. I'm holding out for Brandon Sanderson getting his chance and maintaining more control like Oda did for One Piece."
In the same boat as you.
I'm hoping that someone does an adaptation of Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time series, because Rafe Judkins's travesty sure-as-shit ain't it.
I kind of had this moment while I watching season 2 where I thought to myself, "Would I be watching this show if I had never read the books or heard of the Wheel of Time?" And the answer to that was no, I probably would have dropped due to all the issues I've found outside the books
Exactly this. I feel like the only way that the show is "watchable" is if you've read the books and love the source material, but there's a catch! Because, if you've read the books and love the source material, you understand how much better the story could be as they're butchering it on screen. I would have almost no clue wtf is going on if I hadn't read the books, but even then it's just a vague- "I know where the story should go kinda feeling."
"Train wreck syndrome"
tbh I feel the same way. I drop shows all the time (idk TV is a hard sell for me sometimes haha) and I just really think I would've been too bored by now.
This, right here. 💯
It is the standard bait and switch. They used the love for the book to get viewership, basically throwing the name on it to get an instant following and ratings.
Regarding the one piece LA; i think the best thing it has going for it is that oda(the author if the manga) wants the show to do well and helped to make sure that it stayed true to his story, he even made them do reshoots of some scenes that he felt were not good enough.
I mean, that all depends on the showrunners though! That's cool that they listened to him and wanted him involved. Obviously Jordan unfortunately isn't with us. However, I listened to a lot of the advice Sanderson gave them - that they ignored - that I agreed with SO MUCH. So they had resources, I'm just not sure they cared.
@@Bookborn in fact, if I remember correctly, they asked Sanderson to not be involved after Season 1 Episode 3 or 4.
Makes sense. Oda is a god damn perfectionist.
Aviendha in S2... the drama between Lan & Moron... and Moron and Siuan... Nynaeve and Liandrin...
EVERY one of those needed to be dropped or never introduced.
ALL of them take away from the central stories.
SURE, some of them were, taken by themselves, interesting... or well-done (depending on your prefs).
At the same time, though, every one of them is just another case like the Stepin thread... a waste of limited time.
If it weren’t for breakdown videos like yours, I don’t think I would have any idea what is going on in this show
Not a good sign 😬 I will say, even my non-book reader friends who really enjoy the show say there are several things that they are confused about
Agree: 31:45 This show is written as if a book reader will be present with every non reader who watches, while at the same time insulting the reader for having done the work.
💯💯
I have never read the books and didn’t particularly like season 1 and found your coverage of season 1 while trying to decide if I wanted to watch season 2 or not, and your videos are the most enjoyable part for me. I raced through each week’s episode this season so I could come watch your video on it, and your ups and downs were a better character arc than anyone on the show. I hope you cover season 3 but I understand if you don’t. :)
I have to beg to differ on Nynaeve's Accepted tests working. Mainly her third test.
I know this might be a sore spot, and I wouldn't bring Rafe's (extreme) male feminist ideals into this if it wasn't for the fact that, before the show first aired, he made it very clear he would be bringing his ideals into the show.
In Nynaeve's first test, his ideals come to bare by making both young Nynaeve and her mother "strong female characters". Nynaeve's dad is pretty much useless, and a 70lb young Nynaeve saves her father by tackling him out of the way of an arrow. Her mother then saves them both by being a tremendous archer herself. Back at the cabin, her mother sets up guard while her father puts her in the cellar and then takes up _second defense._ Unlike how a man of those times actually would take up first defense. However, I can actually forgive this, because we see it everywhere these days.
I can't forgive her third test and the dirty it does to Nynaeve's actual strength. The one major problem with Nynaeve's third test, (besides her stupid _third_ fake-out death), is Rafe shows that he has NO IDEA what a strong woman is.
In the books, Nynaeve's third test is her living her absolute idyllic life, with Lan as her king, and husband, having children with him, and everyone being at their happiest. It takes her insurmountable strength of will and her overcoming absolute heartbreak, her realizing this isn't right, and that Egwene, Perrin, Mat and Rand back in the other life, need her help. So against her _every_ want, she calls the arch back into existence and goes back to her real life. She was devastated, crying and her heart was breaking the whole time she did it, but she did it. _That_ was strong!
In the show they take ALL of her own agency away from her, by killing everything and everyone she loves in the alternate world, so the decision to call back the arch and relinquish that life is a no brainer. She has nothing left there, so why not. That doesn't take strength to make that decision! Rafe & Co. are too stupid to know you can have strength without physical turmoil.
This is exactly right. As well acted as the third test was, they got it absolutely wrong. They stole Nynaeve's agency when they had her run with her child through the gateway. She didn't give up anything. She did not make a choice. She failed the test. For her to pass, she had to leave her child behind. That's the test.
This.
I think people (including Bookborn) are overwhelmed NOT with the script or story of the scene... but with Zoe Robbins performance.
A LOT of the praise for the show is centres on the cast tbh. THEY are working with the material they are given, and sometimes making it work.
The core idea of the test breaking women is accurate. But the way it is done is a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of the test and why it is done.
The Aes Sedai must be willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING for the shawl. If they can not, how can they be trusted with the power?
So what's funny, is I had the same problem in my review of Episode 3! I said that by having people ATTACK in her third test, it really takes away the *choice* (as you said) and it makes it less hard. However, it did elicit an emotional reaction from me, and it felt closer to the books, so it felt like a highlight of the season in that regard.
@Bookborn I'll give you that. But I think the thing that bugs me the most is that keeping it the same as in the books wouldn't have created any problems. As such, it's absolute hubris that Rafe thinks he can tell a better story. This goes for so many of his decisions in the show. He had an amazing handbook to go off of, and he decides to completely go off the rails. It's just sad.
Can I just say, I am all for the petty corner. If you’re going to adapt something as beloved as the WoT, you should 100% be prepared for pettiness if you make changes to the story that make it worse and less cohesive
Even if the changes can arguably be good changes, I think its fun when people share their petty takes as long as they do it in good fun and recognize that other people have different opinions and not being mean to the show creators.
Amen to everything you said about Rand. Agree 100%. And about the Horn of Valere too. Looks like some kind of fancy Rachel Ray olive oil dispenser.
NOT A RACHEL RAY OLIVE OIL DISPENSER ☠
It's also confirmed in ep.7 that Moiraine wasn't cut of the power but shielded right?
Yeah, I'm using stilled in my rewrite since moiraine thought she was stilled :)
Which never happened in the books. Her and Lans relationship as shown in the show destroys both characters.
First off, a continuous thank you for all of the amazing WOT content that you have posted. I found myself agreeing with the vast majority of your critiques and comments regarding season 2. I feel obliged, however, to point out that I don't think your criticism of Judkins goes far enough with regards to the male/female dynamic on the show. To me, Judkins has a clear agenda to subvert the importance of the male characters from the books as much as possible. There are just too many times something is changed for the adaptation to fit Judkin's agenda/narrative that are an extreme detriment to RJ's source material. Here are just a few clear examples of this: (1) Rosemund Pike cast as Moiraine automatically shifted the emphasis from the Emmond's Field boys (and Rand in particular as the Drgaon) to Moiraine as the pivotal character in the show; (2) Nyneave's immense burst of power in Season 1 is shot in such a way that anyone watching would have thought she was the Dragon and/or the most powerful channeler in the world; (3) 2 untrained novices, 2 non-sisters we don't even know and Amalisa (a tower reject) obliterating an entire army of shadowspawn in the most immense exertion of the one power ever seen (besides the ridiculousness of this even happening, its just Judkins propping up female power once again at the expense of stealing a crucial moment from Rand in TEOTW); and (4) Egewene impossibly holding off Ishy at the end of Episode 8 Season 2 as if she is a forsaken class channeler and once again stealing Rand's thunder. Judkins' adaptation is an outright abomination and an affront to the sublime source material that RJ and Brandon wrote for us over 16 books.
I forgot probably the most important example. Rand being shielded over and over again by female characters as if his power is nothing and he is a rag doll. This despite Logain clearly stating on the show that with Rand's power level, nothing could contain him (and Siuan stating if only the Dragon had been born a girl...)
I talked a lot about those moments you mention in my season 1 review, since they were in season 1! But, maybe I'm just ignorant of casting stuff - by why does casting Rosemund Pike auto mean she has to be the main character? I know she's a very well-known actress, but there are a lot of shows and movies where someone well known doesn't appear all the time. I'm wondering if that was a Rosemund demand or...?
@Bookborn - When you cast Rosemund Pike along with a bunch of relatively no-name other actors (playing the other supposed leads), it is strongly implied that she is the main focus character of the show. If a well known male actor had been cast for Rand, it would have been balanced and not the case. Just more evidence of Judkins from the outset having an agenda regarding the male/female dynamic...
If the male actors are less impressive then it's because the show runners focused more energy on casting the girl bosses. I agree we haven't seen them given any chance to really shine yet. Your rewrites would've been so much better! It amazes me how these modern writers are so comfortable butchering the works of more popular writers and then get confused when no one likes their huge changes. I hope you continue reviewing next season.
Your depiction of Rand and Ishamael's "sky battle" is pretty much how I visualized it when I first read it in The Great Hunt a while back.
I never got the impression that Rand and Ishamael were flying in the sky themselves, but that what they were doing - by some quirk of nature - was being plastered across the skies.
Excellent video, totally agree! Thanks for summing everything up succinctly.
I've really enjoyed your coverage on the show and books. Hopefully time heals and we can see you making more content on this series in a few years time. 🙏
Min is one of my favorite book characters, and by far my favorite of the "trio".
The show character isn't Min, though...in pretty much any way at all. She isn't even recognizable as Min. I'm officially referring to her as MINO...Min in Name Only.
Min is the biggest misstep casting-wise for me in the entire show. Almost everyone else I can sort of reconcile. Min just doesn't feel like Min AT ALL.
@@Bookborn IMO it's the writing. The actress isn't ideal but not terribly far from the book (I'm thinking Farfromthebookamir here). She's given nothing to do, is lumbered with a stupid hatred for herself and everything she thinks she represents, is easily cowed by Ishamael and is a traitor without even really much of a push. Every last element is not actress, but writer-generated. I hate the writer's room on this show with the heat of ten billion white hot dwarf suns,
Agree with you 100% on these points.
Am I mistaken or they did not mention Callandor even once in 16 episodes? I can already imagine at the end of the episode 8 of the season 3 Rand sees Callandor (which of course will be a katana lol) hanging in the air and asks what it is. Then Uno appears out of nowhere and tells him "It is bloody Callandor lad".
No, Rafe will change it to have Egwene pull Callandor.
“Ferkin” don’t soil the good book swearing with this show.
callandor is not going to be in season 3, they don't have the budget so they are focusing on the two rivers and tar valon again. elaida has been cast.
to be fair Callandor also isn't mentioned by name until I think book 3, until then only being referenced in the prophecies which the show certainly has been a bit lax on spelling out for us as much as the books do.
@@Universum true and sense they have no understanding of magic items in this world. it will probably be Lans sword that he takes up after Lan is wounded for no reason.
Agree with a lot of what you say
1) Egwene is literally SHOWN to be amazing. She "is" amazing. You are right, why does someone need to point it out? Actress kills the role and is well written. Might as well be pointing at a blue vase and saying "that's a blue vase"
2) I've been saying this topic since s1 came out. I feel like Rafe hates Rand or something. Rand spends most of his time asking for help, shielded or on his knees except when....plot.... He IS THE MAIN reason all of these other people are involved. If it wasn't for HIM, all the characters would be drinking mead in the Two Rivers not knowing anything.
3) Nynaeve sitting in the dirt not channeling for half the scenes was a misappropriation of what they built up. Totally agree they should have been involved in helping Eggs (And yeah, where'd that badass Yellow sister go?)
4) I, like you, have not spoken with a single person who likes that whole weird Warder/Lan thing. Not even people arguing on Twitter like it. (And they'll argue anything just to argue)
Overall, I feel whoever is suppsoed to be keeping track of the lines and open points is very bad at their job as they forget characters and don't attach things that just happened an episode earlier.
I don't mind, however, those things like the Heron mark and stuff. Give me my book reader fan service even if they don't make sense. I'll take em.
I really wonder how much Rafe understands the magic system and really how much he knows. No super fan would make some of these wacky changes. They really need to hire a story telling advisor or something. Some of the mistakes are rookie mistakes with plot.
They have an advise.
She's even legit.
But sadly, she's in the "it's just another turning bro" crowd.
Apparently, she does advise (Rafe joked that she stopped him having Perrin talk to a bear) but I'd be intrigued to find out which battles she's actually won.
I suspect she simply provides book friendly window dressing.
Yeah as the person below said, they do have a book person. How much they listen to her? IDK. I know they didn't listen to a lot of what Brandon Sanderson said, so perhaps we will never know. Supposedly Rafe is a big fan, so he knows it all - but I do get the sense that he, as well as other writers, are sort of...afraid (?is that the right word?) of the binary nature of the one power, and seem to avoid talking about that in the show, which I do think ends up confusing things.
@@Bookborn It seems there is slowly a shift in that thinking lately. Especially with the success of One Piece (wow, fans want their source material and it's #1 in the world and making buckets of cash?) and the billions lost by several companies (Disney) due to those "other" points that have no place in entertainment.
Let's hope we can go back to good shows and writing without the shadow of other agendas.
Thanks for your work!
@@DmGray no doubt. It's a shame but there was definately a shift this season to toss in some book fan service. Hopefully it contunues and I enjoyed the season as a whole despite certain parts.
@@Bookborn thats it exactly, they keep dancing around actually saying saidin/saidar but they keep pointing it out at the same time, its like they are afraid to actually say it which I think might clear things up for show only viewers at least
I think you nailed a lot of the changes; they would have made the last episode much better. Here's how I would have brought in book lore to strengthen the last episode with keeping most of what they wanted to achieve, over your already excellent suggestions:
- After being freed, Egwene is the one who destroys the fleet and frees Rand from the shield. She's more powerful than Moiraine and isn't tied by the three oaths. On top of that, it's an opportunity to show how much she hates the Seanchan. Maybe she relishes the destruction?
-Have Elayne stop Egwene from killing Renna. Firstly, this unleashes potential plot roles for Renna in the future (book knowledge coming in here); secondly, it sets up Elayne as the compassionate peacemaker and gives her a clear role in the story.
-Have Rand be alone when he faces Ishamael, but maybe Mat and Perrin help him defeat Turok and retrieve the horn. On that note, get rid of Ingtar's dramatic death scene. The show hasn't told us WHY this is redemption for the character, so it just feels awkward.
-On Rand and Ishamael's fight - I think they should duel with power-enhanced weapons like in the book, but the sheer power starts to blast apart the tower they're standing on, so people can see them fighting on top of the tower (with power enhanced-effects that add to drama and make it believable that the fight can bee seen far way). You could even play on Ishy's need to keep Rand alive by constantly having him tempt Rand, and even channel a platform for them both to stand on when the tower starts to fall apart. I think with some clever design, this could work.
One petty detail that keeps bugging me in the show: why does Lanfear, the most powerful female channeler in the world, need to hire a wooden boat and captain to drop the seals into the ocean? They've showed us that she can travel...
wowie, i agree with literally every point you made in this video!
Adding my own petty change: the editing in this tv show sometimes just feels *so bad*. Take this one example:
1. Ingtar in alleyway: "One man could hold 50 here"
2. Ingtar jumps out of the protection of the alleyway, seanchan run around him
3. Ingtar: "Go, I'll hold them!"
4. literally 2 seconds later, ingtar takes two blades to the back
Instead of looking like a courageous and heroic sacrifice, ingtar looks like a clown. When we were watching this, we burst out laughing at how fast he went down. Perrin and Loial were still looking at him when he died, his death bought them no time at all.
Instead, imagine if they had flipped the order of 2 and 3! With 0 reshooting, and just moving some of the clips around, they could've showed Ingtar fighting for his friends, and actually making a difference in their escape.
Not petty change: Man, cutting Ingtar's darkfriend reveal really missed THREE major core themes of the series that really impact rand's character growth:
1. "no man can stand in the shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again"
2. "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain."
3. "It is every man's right to choose when to Sheathe the Sword" (dying to save your friends, which is exactly what rand will have to choose to do as the dragon reborn at the Last Battle)
lol I thought you were going to bring up how they reuse shots sometime, but this one was more specific and better (well, worse. You get it) 😂 As the season went on, I assumed they wouldn't do Igntar's story simply because we weren't spending any time with him. I do think it's slightly strange though because they sort of started setting it up in the first couple episodes...
I watched and rewatched both seasons, but I also rewatched the LOTR trilogy recently.
One is a loving adaptation of a book series made with pure love and care, I'm pragmatic enough to know you cannot directly translate page to film - but you can do justice.
Wheel of Time is well acted, and visually very nice - especially in season two. But it is very much TV in 2023 - it unfortunately feels more like a mediocre fanfiction than an adaptation.
Highlights of the series for me is Kate Fleetwood as Liandrin and Fares Fares as Ishamael, also huge shout out to Álvaro Morte as Logain. I like the Emond's Field group, except for Rand because Rafe seems to only want to talk about Egwene and Nynaeve. While they're great characters, the side-lining of the male characters is so obvious and honestly unnecessary. The sets - especially in Season 2 - are amazing.
If I had to score the series as a whole out of ten it'd be a four. Season 1 would be a 3, and 2 would be a 5. I won't be shocked, or honestly disappointed if it gets cancelled after season 3. Because my disappointment in a shoddy adaptation will outweigh the disappointment of seeing something I want to succeed to fail.
Thank you. This is one of the best reviews I've seen. You offer alternative choices on how to make it better, which I take my hat off to.
Wow, thank you 🥹
I love your re-write. Some great ideas!
Great video, really matches my own thoughts. One thing I'd add is the fact that Moiraine or any Aes Sedai could produce a "dragon" flame to herald in the new dragon, what is the credibility for Rand being the dragon then? She doesn't even know if he's alive at this point and if she was able to do this, the tower could've appointed any man to be their dragon...
someone pointed this out to me last video (maybe it was you??) and it's SUCH a good point! I wish they had been leaning into the prophecy side more and things that can't just be manufactured, like that.
@@Bookbornit’s not a good point if you’ve read the books lol
What’s to stop them from faking every single prophecy? They raise a bunch of false dragons. The whole point is the pattern doesn’t care and will appoit Rand. This kind of bad faith stuff is why I’m unsubscribing. But that’s nice you get some engagement from the haters by feeding their delusional negativity
@@rantalmore Damn really hurt your feelings there buddy but still, your point makes no sense considering you're using knowledge from the book which hasn't been made clear in the TV show. I mean Moiraine literally "artificially" creates this fire dragon just for the prophecy to be complete, it's not some natural storytelling where she uses a weaves that then somehow becomes a dragon. It's just a confusing point I saw in the show, which is why in the book it explicitly shows Rand fighting in the sky and even the heroes of the horn confirming him as the dragon reborn to all.
Rafe is a self proclaimed feminist. He is intentionally and deliberately minimizing the male characters in favor of the female. This is absolutely pointless as the female and male characters are both strong in the books.
The thing is, feminism is not a zero-sum game. Despite the name, it is more about ensuring that women have the same rights and opportunities as men historically used to have, to arrive at a more egalitarian society.
Rafe Judkins's version of "feminism" is more a toxic one - where men are shown poorly in a ham-handed attempt to artificially make women shine.
And there's not even a reason to do this - Jordan's world gave equal importance to both genders.
I appreciate your insights. And it appears you respond to as many comments as you can. That's awesome and respectable. Keep up the good work! I hope to read the books at some point!
Looking forward to your book review of A Clash of Kings! (And then really looking forward to A Storm of Swords).
Aw jeez… and I’m still on S1 Episode 3 I think haha (haven’t touched it since the premiere). I just remember Arcane came out and thinking “now this is how to do high fantasy properly”
lol and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (I give up on fantasy shows ALL THE TIME lol)
Arcane was rad.
> "I’m still on S1 Episode 3 I think haha"
My humble suggestion - drop the show and read the books (or use the audiobooks from Kramer/Reading). A much richer experience.
@@mantheking- I was talking about two years ago when this show came out. Never made it past episode three at the time, then Arcane premiered. Already have it on kindle though, but the wheel TV series is probably still sitting in my queue around ep. three or may have been beginning of four.
@@JazzTechie
For me, I started the show earlier this year, and thought it was heavily sub-par. I also wondered why there was so much noise from people, apparently upset with the show.
I thought, _"It's just your generic fantasy 101. What gives? Why are you so upset?"_ .
Then I saw the books in the library, and borrowed the first two on a whim sometime this May/June time-frame. Suffice to say, I'm hooked, and currently on Book 9.
And joined the ranks of the upset. 🙂
There was this minor scene in s02ep03 I think, where Egwene confronts Liandrin after Nyneave's goes "missing". That scene bothered me SO MUCH!
- why would Egwene be this antagonistic to a character she's never talked to on-screen, where does the bad blood come from?
- how exactly is anyone supposed to "prepare" a novice for a test in which she is _not supposed to channel_ but only face her own demons? What does "not ready" even mean in this context?
- based on the above, on what grounds would Egwene literally accuse Liandrin of murder?
- why would she risk channeling at a Sister she believed to be a murderer?
- why would she even confront a full Aes Sedai? WHAT WAS THE PLAN?
I racked my brain trying to understand what this scene meant achieve, and the only thing I could come up with is :
- make Egwene look fierce and indomitable and,
- make Liandrin look complex but dangerous nonetheless.
And that's it. They took time to make that scene that makes absolutely No Sense, and does Nothing for the plot, just to say that about thise two characters...
This, for me, is this whole show in a nutshell.
See, I didn't like the books. And I read the series twice. I think RJ is a good world-builder but a bad story-teller and a bad character writer. So I came to the show with the conviction that it had a LOT of room for improvement.
I knew I wasn't getting what I was hoping for from Moiraine's very first sentence.
Normally I'd have checked a few episodes, then shelved the show as mediocre and moved on. Life is short and all that.
But I kept watching, because the online post-show reviews were fascinating, in their... diversity 😏
I really hope you continue to cover season 3. Your insights on the show, and show vs book comparisons, are very informative and entertaining! I’m really enjoying the show. I’ve only read the first 3 books (a long time ago). The show, you and Daniel Green have gotten me back into re-reading the series again. I’m now halfway through The Great Hunt. 📖🤓
This is the best review I’ve watched. Great job. I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Thank you for your work! I really enjoy watching the comparison you are making ❤ it is hard for me to watch a show, not because I hate it, just because I can't turn off my love for the books and it's lore. Interesting, before I read the books - the first season for me was ok😅 after I read ... not much
I really dislike what they did to Suan as well! I was on her side through the whole books, but now I hate her.
I absolutely love Suian in the books too. I think what happens with moiraine is compelling (although probably unforgivable which I don't like), but I think it didn't work as well because they didn't give it set up. I wish we would have seen more of her this season!
MOST of the show characters are, at best, hard to like.
Moron, they tell us, will always do what's right...
Including treating her little sister like a despised serf... for absolutely no valid reason, when it is ALSO a moronic thing to do.
I'm glad someone was brave enough to say the Horn looked dumb
It did look awful. There was no hunt for the horn.
I hope you change your mind about covering next season. I appreciate all the commentary you've made so far. Thank you for the hard work!
It’s struggling because it sucks. No one asked for Rafe Judkins take on the books, they wanted to see the real story brought to life.
When you have to start hitting people with the cliche “envision it as another turning of the wheel” copium to try to justify your deviations on the story, then it’s time to back up and see where you went wrong.
imagine if they’d advertised it as another turning before season 1 came out. They sell it as “amazing Rafe Judkins version of wheel of time”. Literally no one would’ve watched it and they know it.
I like your change ideas! I will also note that Egwene also couldn’t have refused the order from her sul’dam to channel based on how the ad’am works.
Agree on almost everything, and the petty corner was completely on point. I am similarly ambivalent on Season 3, but I will definitely watch it. I would encourage you to continue with the per-episode analysis and comparison videos for S3. Your videos have been the best I've found for S1 and S2, and it would be a shame to not have the same for future seasons.
What act in the 4 act structure is season 2? That should help explain.
People talking about the men/women issue in the books and claiming that the TV show needs more empowered women havent really read the books...
Aes Sedai - Ruling the world from the shadows, all women
Seanchan Empress. - Women
Village Councils - basically ruling the village. True there are men as well and it could be more or less 50-50 in power, but the majority of decissions feel to fall in the favor of the women.
Wise ones - Women
Andor - Queen
Atha'an Miere - Mistress of Ships
Saldaea - monarchy, with both queens and kings, but women make their man bleed if they feel mistreated
And i probably missed a few more.
Indeed. I was thinking about this today in response to a comment stating that the writing is misogynistic and had to be updated to modern times. I find this argument ridiculous on its face.
Haven't watched the video past the first few minutes yet, but this is how I'd have improved season 2:
- Give Rand more of his book 2 story and less book 3. Give him more time with all his friends to build those bonds and then introduce Selene to break them. Give him time with Lan to train and with Moiraine to sow some distrust to resolve at the end. Give us more of the actual Hunt for the Horn and maybe even introduce the Rand/Loial/Hurin stuff at least for an episode or two as a way to bring in Lanfear more organically.
- Don't do basically any of what they did with Moiraine, Lan, the warders, and the Damodreds. None of that was working. Have Moiraine and Lan stick together as they should and maybe have them be following Ishamael.
- Less Liandrin. She's good but she wasn't adding anything and was detracting too much.
- More Mat, especially with characters other than Min. Make us feel it when he blows the horn.
- Give us Faile and Thom, they are helpful foils and guides for our protags.
- Less Seanchan in general. The damane stuff was good but there was way too much of it and way too much Egwene in general.
- Don't kill off Uno and Hopper and give us more Ingtar and Bornhalt to feel those losses.
- Save Aviendha for later, we already spread ourselves too thin with Min and Elayne and Rand simply hasn't had any interactions of note with any of them yet.
- Basically stick your characters together so they're not spread so thinly and you can focus on them more. Less Tower and less Seanchan. Instead of having basically one entire story arc for each character, put them in groups of 2-4 like in the book so we can learn more about their bonds and their storylines.
- For characters like Uno, Loial, Ingtar, Aviendha, Min, Leane, Verin, etc -- either give us more or get rid of them. Amusingly I'm completely incredulous that they did this with Thom, but they can't just have fanservice characters with five minutes of screentime and expect us to be thrilled they're there.
On a positive note, I feel like the effects improved and I ended up really liking Mat's new actor. Rosamund Pike continues to deliver but nothing Moiraine did was working. And I actually like Logain as a way for Rand to learn channeling but it just wasn't fleshed out enough. We've had two seasons now and we still have no real idea who Rand, Mat, or Perrin really are. That's a problem going forward.
My main issue is, they’ve taken a story from a multimillion selling book author & are replacing it with stories written by a show runner who’s never sold a single published word. And this season was supposed to be much more inline with the original books, still think they should be sticking much more to the source material
I feel whilst Rafe is connected to this show, book readers will never get the wot we want/deserve
Yeah I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m glad you do this kind of after the season thoughts because your views come across better when you talk about the whole season.
Wow I love your rewrite compared to the actual show 😅
The fans would have totally forgiven them for doing some clunky stuff with Mat to get us past the actor leaving plot stuff. Them rewriting the whole season for that is a brutal choice-cuz I’m right with you, the male Emonds Field leads have been way way underdeveloped.
One nitpick that bothers me is how they handled Ingtar. Based purely on what the show gave to us, I think he was indeed the Shienaran dark friend that opened Fal Dara. But only book readers would suspect that, and I’ve even seen book readers not register that he was still a darkfriend in the show. His sacrifice at the end basically meant nothing to show watchers and felt underwhelming to us book readers. Just another example like yours with the heron mark stuff that they don’t seem to know exactly how to position the show vis-a-vis book fans or how to make little details more clear to show watchers
I TOTALLY agree. Like a ton of people had heard of the issues with the actor - and when a casual viewer saw they were recast, it wouldn't be hard to make assumptions. So like...why did they try so hard? just do a tiny retcon, people understand.
Show Rand isn't savior/breaker, he's savior or destroyer. It's a massively important distinction and the most glaring evidence that the writers didn't read the books.
I read them and I don't think it's that important. Maybe to Jordan it was, but I don't see it.
@@davidbowles7281 That's the main driving force behind Rand's arc throughout the entire series. How he views his role in the prophesies and how he thinks he needs to change himself to prepare him to fulfill that role. If you don't understand that you don't understand the books.
Rand is never conflicted on his role in the books, only in the toll it takes. But that's not a big enough difference to warrant invalidating the show imo.
@@bidossessi If Rand is savior or destroyer his attempts at hardening himself make no sense. Everyone with half a brain would point out to him that trying to make himself not feel anything is probably leading him down the path of becoming the destroyer. When Rand is on top of Dragonmount it's because he's despairing at what he sees as futile. With the savior or destroyer change getting Rand there would require him to willingly accept viewing himself as the destroyer, forsaking his role as savior because if his fate is an either or proposition he has no reason to despair. He's not destined to be both savior and destroyer with the change, it's savior or destroyer. Therefore embracing the role of destroyer would be a choice to reject one fate in favor of the other. This is a massive change to not only Rand's arc, but also to the theme of balance that the writers claim to understand. It's Yin and Yang not Yin or Yang.
Probably the best analysis of the show I’ve seen, thank you!
Absolutely love your rewrite if the show! They should seriously hire you. It would be awesome ❤
How come nobody minds that the TV show bears no resemblance to the original story.
Thank God Peter Jackson did not attempt to totally re-write Lord of the Rings (we won't talk about "The Hobbit").
Do people really prefer the Amazon butchered and totally re-arranged story over Robert Jordan's story???
The show runner's hubris is breathtaking.
I have no interest in watching the show after seeing the first season, and I: will never get over how horrible they made loial look
It is a very bad character design lol
Bad character design but he is honestly the best character on the show! The actor nails being loial!
@34:27 The same person wrote both those episodes and he's also the show-runner, who is responsible for continuity across the entire season.
IMO it's pretty telling that you don't consider yourself a screenwriter yet your re-written version of the season is far better than what we got from the "professionals."
I'm so glad I can separate things enough to enjoy this xD It was awesome! Can't wait till next season! Listening to the soundtrack now
No, just No.
I won't give this a pass.
With the books I've been there from the beginning.
I waited the 2 or more years between books. I about lost it in 2007 when Jordan passed.
I ran out and grabbed a bunch of Brandon's books when Harriet announced him being hired to finish the series. Had to see if Brandon was worthy. I waited with excitement to see this beloved series brought to life. This was not it. Make all the excuses you like, for me its a no.
I think everyone who follows book sites has probably read the books multiple times. We probably hung out on the same theory websites waiting for the books to be released. I think its fair to say the series has split readers. I have personally enjoyed S2 and a good chunk of reader reactors have too. A lot of readers have hated it of course and i guess it is down to expectations.
@@tw7998I don’t think it is just for high expectations. I love the books and am willing to be very forgiving for the changes to adapt into the show. As long as they maintain the heart and soul of the story, world and characters. And they are failing hugely for the well their own magic consistency they themselves establish for the show. And the major problem. Making the male characters so pathetic most of the time for Agenda. I am not against strong female character moments. I love it. But when it comes at the cost of taking it away from a strong male character moment, especially for the protagonist. It becomes. Illogical
@@SujeetRaj711 well hopefully we will see the mat and lan we know so well in s3. Certainly we got badass lan in his fighting scene. Don't get me wrong, i complained many times about the 'extra' plotlines with lan and moiraine (i hated every scene with alannas warders and lan) but despite the simplification of plot points and magic systems i recognise the world :)
tbh I don't really think I'm making excuses haha. I'm giving it a fair chance - about 2/3 of this review is critical, which doesn't feel like giving it a pass.
@@SujeetRaj711 btw despite the 'extra plot' with lan and moiraine (added to keep rosamund pike on screen is my guess). I don't think we can dismiss the problem with fitting such a gigantic story into 64 hours . It needs a huge amount of cutting and simplification.
Cutting Egwene’s braid is a similar situation with the Heron mark. They put emphasis that it’s a big moment but for non-book readers it’s doesn’t hit.
Oooh that’s a great one actually. They didn’t focus on the braid at all really
And what's sad is, they could have so easily set it up! When the Whitecloaks were scrubbing her down in season 1, they could have shown how she was stoic until they started to undo her braid and brush it out - then she could have scrambled to get it away from them.
That quick moment would have been enough build up for show watchers without needing any book knowledge.
You're totally right about the focus needing to be on Rand. I didn't think of it in that way till you mentioned. He is the main ta'veren and the whole book series seems to be based on that. His role in the world affects the formation of all the other characters more than anything else.
> "He is the main ta'veren and the whole book series seems to be based on that."
The whole book series IS based on that.
Amazon's WoT is just Rafe Judkins demonstrating his version of what feminism is supposed to be (a toxic version of it), and simping for his favorite character, Egwene, and in the process, turning her into a Mary Sue.
If you haven't, read the books - you will be shocked at what Rafe Judkins has done with the series.
I super agree with all of your overall sentiments here!!! I also felt like the front half of the season focused on a lot of slow or insignificant story points. It ramped up mid season but as you pointed out in your "rewrite section" there was a lot of missed opportunity to set up significance to what they wanted to pay off by the end of the season. I agree that the Arches scenes were very well done. And getting "set up" in the White Tower in general was enjoyable for me.
I am a first time reader & only up to book 3. So I don't feel exactly qualified to remark about lore and long game arcs. However, I feel that Ingtar & Padan Fain were underutilized. I feel that a couple small interactions between these two, since they were seemingly in the same location and on the same "side" could have amped up the drama & mystery. As well as giving main characters like Perrin or Matt even more motivation that is compelling by revealing their deception. They even set that up in one of the first scenes with Perrin & Ingtar. Would have been more interesting and impactful watching two darkfriends continue to conspire than watching Loial and Ingtar walk down a hallway, if you ask me. Lol.
I also think there should have been far more significance paid to the Horn. It felt so out of left field even though I knew this season was an adaptation of "The Great Hunt." Lol. Again, just a few more lines throughout the early episodes. Maybe listening to Matt talk about why it's silly to believe that him or his friends are these "reborn heroes." Honestly the character beats they laid out for Matt work perfectly for this. It just needed the additional context to come full circle. Leandrin even alludes to Artur Hawkwing but then there is no further connection made by any other character. You nailed it by saying that the overall narrative structure for the season is one of the weakest aspects of the show.
And I don't mean any of this to be like a "purist" or anything. These were just things I noticed that were brought up in the show and I think would have elevated the story had they been given some additional developement. Instead I just felt confused by the narrative I was given because there is so little clarification to what things are and what they mean. To me, the front and back half of the season feel like they were written separately from each other. Which highlights the points you made so well.
I'm actually really hopeful & excited for season 3. I just want a more consistent & compelling overall storyline. They really shine when they lean into the details.
I think your take on strong female characters is really good. All too often we've been taught that strong female character in sci-fi/fantasy = hyper aggressive to the point of being psychotic, instead of showing them being strong in more of the way you'd show a male character being strong. In S1 ep3, Nynaeve flat out tries to stab Lan even though he is by far her best lead toward accomplishing her goals at that point and would probably help her. I understand Nynaeve has trouble at this point emotionally telling friend from foe but this is crazy and felt like the writers were just too caught up in showing she was a strong female character, much like they did with the Trolloc in the pool. Stabbing the Trolloc was an appropriate demonstration of strength. Stabbing a near stranger who can probably help you, isn't. Galadriel in Rings of Power is often crazy aggressive to the point of being a danger to allies around her and the writers seem to think that's an appropriate way to make her a strong female character, if she were a guy, they would never be that 2 dimensional.
Or, just have multiple personalities! Nynaeve is hot-headed, so maybe it makes sense for her character; but not every female should always be agressive/rude. Strong women have many different personalities!
Yeah and they're strong in different ways, not just mindlessly fierce. But it's easier to make them uniformly violently hostile toward others and then pat yourself on the back for being open minded.@@Bookborn
Hollywoke turns "strong female characters" into men. They think this makes them strong. Lord forbid that a female might have strong feminine characteristics like sensitivity, emotional intelligence, nurturing, protective of kin etc.
Once again, I really appreciate your reviews! I followed season 2 through you and a number of other reviewers, rather than watching directly (I explain in another comment why I made that choice). I feel like I very likely would agree with the vast majority of your commentary.
I watched season 1 more times than I can count on my deep dive. The first time was to try to enjoy it. The second time was to try to roughly understand why I didn't. Then I just kept going - noticing more and more overall problems, and detailed problems with the writing.
For season 2, it sounds like episode 6 is undeniably good television. Episodes 5 and 7 are generally well regarded by most, but some book readers have issue with changes that were made (because of the butterfly effect - anticipating yet another retcon to ignore established show lore whenever it's convenient). And some liked the finale a lot while others thought it really missed the landing. But the whole first half of the season seems to be floaty - we delve into things that don't end up mattering, characters that don't end up mattering, and there's little movement in the plot, let alone character development.
This show is a particular sore spot for me since I literally chose to enter the film industry back in 2010 (really 2004) because I wanted to be ready to be part of the show once it made it to the small screen. I've got dozens of titles under my belt doing visual effects - from blockbuster films to indie productions. I've been a low level artist working with hundreds of others, to a supervisor of a medium sized team, to a one-artist show. I've written and edited scripts, supervised on set, been a camera operator, and much more. I've also done 8 and 10 episode breakdowns of the major and minor beats for the first few books - along with detailed lists of vfx that need to be tested, locations (limited for the screen), how to merge/cut without losing much of the story, character sheets (listing motivations at various points, personalities, character arcs, etc), props with detailed descriptions, some illustrations of elements, etc.
I've also very closely followed the story behind the rights to the show. And when REE came out with Winter's Dragon, I teamed up with a fellow fan who owned a production company and started to put together a short form video (effectively two short trailers) that would portray the highlights of EotW. I believe because of the lawsuits, we were asked to stop by team Jordan, and of course we shut it down - our goal was always and only to honor RJ's memory.
Now REE (rebranded as iWoT) is still making money off the show after suing Harriet. And I have good reason to believe they were only able to get it in front of Sony (and in turn Amazon) because Rafe saw Winter's Dragon and reached out to them to offer his connections if they agreed to let him be the Showrunner. Rafe himself never would have been given that position by big studios based on his limited experience, and effectively being out of the entertainment industry for 7+ years until he got this job.
So looking at who's profiting off of this project, who's behind this project, and how little consideration is given to the fanbase and the established leadership of the IP (Maria, Harriet, Brandon, Michael, etc), and how thoroughly it has mangled one of the greatest fandoms in the world - I honestly would rather the show have not happened. Because a show would have happened eventually anyway - and I can't imagine worse circumstances for it to come to fruition.
I also hope the show is canceled - for the very same reason. It will be rebooted in time, and I am completely sure that (based on the social media responses to the way the show was done) executives will recognize the potential for profit as well as understanding the best way to not alienate the group that would give them massive, free word of mouth marketing.
That said, I am very glad this show has brought so many new readers to the books! It has also begun to bring the name of Wheel of Time into the mainstream in general, which is great. And while I wasn't a fan of some of the casting choices (Rosamund in particular, for a variety of reasons) I was generally a huge fan of the cast (even if I would have preferred for Mat to look more similar in heritage to the other EFers, and for nations to feel more homogenous), I did like that this didn't look like a CW show, even if the writing was on that level (if not below). And, as you've said, seeing some of the moments from the books mostly come to fruition on screen was very exciting - let alone scenes that weren't in the books! Some great examples: Logain taking over Ghealdan, the blood snow, and Egwene's time as a Damane.
So yeah - long story short, I wish it hadn't happened. I wish it would stop. But I'm more disappointed than angry about how it all turned out. And I'm still totally willing to enjoy the little bits of sunlight in an otherwise dark show. At least, I was. I don't think I'll even be following reviewers for season 3 if/when it happens. Thinking about this show just brings me down and makes me question my entire career choice, which is a constant struggle itself.
Wow, thanks for sharing your extensive history with the project. (Although I can't believe you watched Season 1 so many times - I planned to rewatch it for my review and I couldn't even get myself to rewatch it 😂).
I had no idea how the WoT show came to be, so hearing the history is very interesting. I wonder if Amazon actually cared that Rafe was inexperienced - look who they picked for Rings of Power.
@@Bookborn also, in case you're curious about that deep dive: docs.google.com/document/d/1mHB01EwiGQ28o-Mh3xbBM1vjVHqsopeYbkHiKry_WQU/edit
Interesting!
I actually wondered why Harriet would allow the series be defiled like it was but I did not do my due diligence trying to research the back story. You mentioning REE/iWoT led me to find a lot more information about that, so thank you!
It makes much more sense now. Still, a shame that we got _this_.
Thank you for the very interesting backstory about this show.
I share your feelings about this "adaptation", and I hope as well that Judkins's misandrist travesty gets canceled sooner or later.
I'm close to 50 now, and I hope that I get to see a proper adaptation by people who actually care about the source material comes out before I bow out.
How is Rand the Dragon Reborn, getting shielded so easily by single Aes Sedai, but Logain needed multiple Aes Sedai to shield him and he broke free.
no it gets better the very next episode ishy has 7 or 8 damene to shield him, the power ups and downs are nonsense
I love your video and how you articulate your points. I am with you that while sometimes I'm very critical of the show I dont hate it. Mostly i just regret all the missed opportunities that could have made the rhe show great. Like you said One Piece proved it possible. Mostly i get most angry at the people who insist the show is perfect or great storytelling. Or defend even the nonsense descions like Moiraine breaking the three oaths or Egwene collaring Renna. Its just bad writing and storytelling. The people who defend these choices pretending it doesnt violate the shows own lore just drive me crazy.
One thing that really stood out to me this season is everyone telling Rand how he is being manipulated, how the Aes Sedai are pulling his strings. But like, how exactly? Other then literally just bullying him, how has Moiraine or any of the Aes Serai manipulated him? They dont manipulate because they dont understand the word subtle. The bully and browbeat sure. But there is no manipulation. They aren't interested in telling a good enough story for subtle things like manipulation. It feels like another thing they included to appease book fans. Like....see we are acknowledging the Aes Sedai are manipulative. Thats like the books right?! No, not if you don't actually show anyone being manipulative its not.
For me I understand that changes from the books must be made, but they should make sense and be good changes. Some of the changes are, but many of the changes weren't good. They were either boring and added filler or they went against who the character should be according to the book. If they needed to add filler they could have included some of the filler from the books or even some of the most interesting parts. But they added their own filler when they should have been moving the plot along. There are some scenes like Nynaeve in the accepted trails or Egwene as a damane were really well done. But so much other stuff was a disappointment. I think for me what bothers me most is that we all looked forward to a Wheel of Time adaptation and we get this disappointing mess. I loved about 5% of it, 45% is meh and 50% is awful. The season as a whole for me is 4/10.
Agree with all your takes. My take is you have a script already written by a best selling author: Follow it, don't try to be cool :)
Also, if they were going to change things this much, they should have just made Egwene the dragon. My mind could have handled that better.
In fairness, books actually don't usually make one-to-one good adaptations; things that work in books often don't work on screen. So some changes will always be necessary; but they really haven't kept hte spirit of the books either, which is what is so frustrating.
That's what I was trying to say - you have to follow the progression of the books if you are saying the season is based off that book. You cant jump around and take creative liberties with the plot, main characters and timeline. Season one of game of thrones is the best example, You basically get a few chapters every episode and it stays right on track@@Bookborn
@@chrisevans8118
> "Also, if they were going to change things this much, they should have just made Egwene the dragon. My mind could have handled that better."
Right? Then I could just have safely switched off and abandoned the show in the first season itself.
The issues I have with this show would just be too much to write lol. This vid is great and sums up a lot of the feelings I have.
I've been replying as I'm watching and just got to 31:45. This is spot on! They tease bookreaders with an iconic scene from the books over and over and then subvert the scene in some way. It happens too often to be by accident.
Honey, let me explain some things to you. (I'm from the south we just call people honey don't be offended)
I don't know if you are a feminist. I am actually supportive of the classical feminist ideals, but modern feminism does not want equality, it wants superiority and it wants the men to pay (see what Star Wars did to Luke Skywalker)....
What is my point? They are never... I repeat, never... going to let Rand outshine the women. Rafe said this is a feminist show and we already saw it in season 1 when he was robbed of his Tarwin's Gap moment of power much like he was robbed of any significant moments in season two.
They will keep doing things like this to Rand, and the show will be cancelled. It's so tragic because I actually like most of the actors and actresses.
They will never allow Rand to have three women either (that's toxic masculinity...even though in the books the women make their own choices but the show will never let this happen), so you shouldn't be wondering where Min is. Rand will fall in love with Elayne in season 3 but it will be highlighted what a terrible person he is for betraying Egwene. When it happens, remember: I called it.
But I very much enjoy your videos. Keep it up! 😊👍
I LOVE how thorough and well thought out the content you produce is! Great job!
Thanks for watching 🙏
I was half expecting Loil and Ingtar to sing the Kimmy Schmidt theme for a minute there. Honestly I wouldn't even be mad.
I think you and I think the same regarding this series. Great video by the way. You well spoken and easily understood.