New member of the Catelyn Defense Squad!! We’re happy to have you ⚔️ She’s one of the most realistic and complex characters I’ve ever read about. Not female characters, not fantasy characters, just one of the best characters period!
@@Mohler41 That doesn't mean that she's not an interesting, well written character. I think Cersei's one of the most interesting characters in the series even though she's an absolutely terrible person. Blaming a fictional character and disliking them for events in a book's plot that they were written into is rather immature imho.
They understood it in the early seasons. Some of the best scenes in season 1 are only in the show. (There are still some stinkers for sure, like Baelish’s infamous brothel scene) Tywin’s introduction, Cersei and Robert talking about their marriage, Robert, Barristan and Jaime talking about killing. Ned saying “Baelor!” to make his last action saving Arya. However, as soon as the books ran out they resorted to mostly cheap shock factor and genital jokes for runtime. But I WILL give them credit for genuinely great additions in the early series.
@@DongusMcBongusI wouldnt even say it was just they ran out of books, they alsu purposely akipped whole chunks with no plans on how to fill in the gaps later on
@kingdancekiller they understood it in the early seasons because they were working under George's framework lol. D&D aren't total hacks they did have some genuinely good original material but even that I question how much was George involved with. He had a heavy hand in every early season so honestly who's to say stuff like Arya and tywin wasn't his idea.
I think the biggest problem GRRM has caused himself by never finishing the books to this point is to make readers inadvertently forget how insanely good this series was/is because we're so put off by his lack of output. In reality, ASOIAF stills stands head and shoulders above just about every modern fantasy series out there.
Yep, I def think this is true! The conversation has become so focused on him not finishing that it's hard to remember why everyone cared so much in the first place lol (That's just as an outsider, based on what I heard about the series before starting)
In a wierd way I orefer they at least stay good like I remmeber them than have something put out that is terrible like with what happend with Dune. Though it had a whole different author in the latter half but it really ruined the series
Glad you loved Clash! A suggestion: I recommend reading "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" in between "A Storm of Swords" and "A Feast For Crows". It is a collection of three short stories in the ASOIAF universe that were released alongside the main series and were meant to be breezier reads that are lighter in tone. Reading it is not required to understand what happens in the main series, but Feast and Dance reference characters, concepts, and imagery from the stories in small and big ways. I found the connections rewarding to discover and they enriched GRRM's excellent worldbuilding even further. Plus, its a fun read!
I totally agree! You should definitely read these three short stories, ideally before AFFC because.....reasons ( potential future spoilers I want to avoid )
I love Dunk and Egg because its written on such a small geographic scale \with rich detail and characters. Just another example of Martin's genius as an author.
If you like the prose now, wait until you get to A Feast for Crows. You will meet a septon who will have a monologue that is probably the most beautiful thing I've ever read (and I think a lot of people in the fandom agree this is the pinnacle of Martin's prose).
The broken man monologue is the thesis statement for ASOIAF. I get why some people aren’t a fan of AFFC, but imo it’s got some of the best writing in the whole series and in some ways represent the emotional heart of the story
I think Catelyn perspective is important to the story not only due to the situations she gets herself in but also because of how unique is her role in the overall story. She was married to Ned and brought to an unfamiliar place she did not like not for love but because of the duty she had towards her familly, the Tullys, but with time she learned to love her husband and her childrens and was satisfied with her life in Winterfell. She is the one who is suffering the most from the ongoing war, like, her husband is dead, as well as two of her children (as far as she knows), her only two daughters are being captive in King's landing and the son she still has is often leading an army to battle and does not even seems to want her there at all. It is interesting to see how the love and grief for her shattered family leads her to do some very questionable decisions as well as the impact they will have on the later books.
She did NOT listen to Ned. She was told to go to the North prepare the cranogmen and moat Caitlin with 100 bowmen. She didn’t do her job. And fucked up every possible thing she could by being emotional and irrational. She failed Ned, and Robb because she couldn’t do what she was told. But it’s justified because she had REASON to be emotional. That’s the exact reason Ned sent her away.
I really love the poetic ending of this book, mayby the most memorable one for me in general (any other meditative literature like this?): "At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell’s chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either."
It brings tears to my eyes every time 😭 Not only is it so moving because Winterfell is HOME to so many of our POVs, it's also touching for the connection Bran feels to it as a newly disabled person. It's so well done.
Cheers to what you said about Catelyn! This series is important to me because it was the first adult fantasy I read that had complex, believable, and fascinating female characters. Not just one but several! If I did a favorite fantasy characters video, ASOIAF would probably dominate that list. Loved hearing your first-time thoughts on A Clash of Kings! ☄️
YES!! I now see why so many people were sad I hadn't read ASOIAF when I did my favorite female characters video. There are SO many good ones in here already
@@Bookborn Catelyn is a complex character with good and bad in her, like everyone else. I merely don't fall for her shtick just because she's a MOM, Bookborn
If I had it to do all over again I would never read the series. I've been reading the series since 2003 and knowing that we are never getting resolution with the series is more painful than never reading it IMHO
@@deadcaptainjames6045 it makes me really sad too, but i think it's still totally worth reading. Although I only started the books a couple of years ago, so i feel for you. 2003? Damn
I know there aren't many losers like me left who have never gotten into it, but it's so fun discovering a new series that's so incredible for the first time again. It's been a while since I felt this way!
@@deadcaptainjames6045we know how it’s going to end. The endings from the show are from George. The main general endings. It will just arrive there differently. I’d bet money on this
“Look, if there are one million Catelyn fans in the world, I am one of them. If there is one Catelyn fan in this world, it is me. If there are no Catelyn fan’s in this world, I am dead.” 😆 I LoL’d so hard at this. You nailed that joke! 💯
It looks like you already recognised the holy trinity of Martin's writing: dialogue, deaths, and unexpected plot twists that still make perfect sense in retrospect.
We are conditioned to be unforgiving of imperfect female characters but will laud characters like Tony Soprano/Walter White. I love Catelyn and I love Sansa.
I think that's mostly misogyny in action. The fanboys want their antiheroes to be allowed to do whatever they want with zero consequences, and expect all the female characters to meekly stand by their man, even when it's putting them and their families in danger. But if a fictional woman makes the slightest mistake, or in the case of Sansa acts like a *real* sheltered teenage girl, they crucify her. But in GRRM's world, actions have consequences, and both worried mothers and naive teen girls are deserving of respect and compassion. And sometimes they're smarter than the men around them, too!
Most guys I know don’t see Walter white as a laudable figure. At the beginning he starts off as relatable to a degree but you see him “break bad” so to speak
@@thing_under_the_stairs you lost me at misogyny and even further at "they're smarter than the men around them" Its not even a trope "fanboys" believes on the opposite scale. Imagine if a fanboy said that about his male favorite. Female Anti heroes are plenty that has not only the respect of their fan but absolute recongnition of their importance and the challenge they had to face. Few to name on top of my mind: Galadriel, Eowyn, Sarah Connor, Cat Woman, Olenna Tyrell. Females with personal flaws, flawed motives but truly inspiring, ground shaking in their approach and execution. People have problem with bad writing and there is plenty to go around. While there *IS* a certain bias when it comes to expectations of character, this is a biased and great misunderstanding on your part to simply make a judgement by association of what it means. Sheltered naive teenage girl are annoying and GRRM made it so purposely because it serves his story. Joffrey was overall hatred as hell for similar reasons on top of his viciousness BUT it was throwing several lessons with it to the audience on top of flashes of brilliance for his character. Tommen as king was SOOOO PAINFUL and annoying for the same reason as Sansa which made us miss Joffrey. That was also intended. Sansa's story point is showing that shes a remarkable survivalist that can adapt on a whim despite the most horrible of events. As Tyrion said: You may survive us yet. Joffrey's point was to show that we can desire the worst of fate for a 8 years old sociopath that was just overly sheltered with bad parents with no understanding or knowledge of kindness and purpose. He had good ideas few times: The crown should have its own army instead of rellying on houses and their politics, they should handle Deanarys now before her Dragons becomes a problem. We were all missing him when the religious radicals took over even if they were populists. Tommen's point was similar to Sansa on the difference of never adapting and being very soft and sensitive. Made the famous debate: are elitist nobles better than radical religious populists? Why are we in love with noble medieval houses that starves and profit from their peasants that they have disdain for? Hence why we missed Joffrey that we wanted dead prior who was just an 8 year old. Its not about misogyny and even if your case was true - thats not what it means.
I actually really enjoyed reading Catelyn’s chapters! Partially because I really love Robb and everything to do with the King in the North stuff and we only see that through Catelyn, but she’s also written really well. Was surprised you didn’t talk about one of my absolute favorite chapters in the whole series (which is a Catelyn chapter) where Catelyn gets Jaime drunk in his cell and they have some of the best dialogue!
Oh man it's so hard to talk about everything but that chapter was SO GOOD. Also filled with tension. It was also exciting for me because I know so many people just love Jaime and basically I've gotten nothing of him yet. So I really enjoyed getting to understand him slightly better.
Catelyn does not hate jon as much as she fears him. She does not care that Ned had another child but is bothered that he is raising him as if he was a true born son. She does not fear that he will take Winterfell over Robb, but she does fear that the children he has will, because they will be true born and have a really good claim to Winterfell.
@@sophiawilson8696 no, I believe only a king can legitmise a bastard. Ned was technically hand of a king for a time, so maybe then he would be able to.
No she hates him for simply being mothered by anothe woman. Fear is a factor but it’s mostly due to him living amongst her true born children and he also looks the most like Ned outside of Arya which plays a factor as well.
One of Caitlyn's problems with Jon is that Jon looks like a Stark, while most of her children don't. Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are all redheads with Tully blue eyes. One look at Jon's dark hair and gray eyes tells everyone who his father is.
Gave me chills all over again describing some of those scenes/moments/characters. I want books 6 and 7 as much as anyone else but I do not regret reading this series in 2022-2023 at all. This video was EPIC! #TeamCatelyn
YES, no regrets! Although my friend did joke to me that she'll be so angry if I read the books this late and then suddenly George decides to publish next year or something and I didn't have to wait at all 🤣
@@BookbornI'd say I'm with your friend on that one, but tbh I'd have to be an insane person to have any reason to complain that the wait was finally over for any of us, new or old fans
Don't worry, the Sophie Turner divorce and the 'spoiler headlines' have nothing to do with the books, because the show went past the books and basically wrote fan fiction for multiple seasons. Also, I agree with EVERYTHING with what you said about Catelyn. She's my favourite POV, it's so interesting and essential and she does not deserve the hate she gets.
@@Bookborn Yeah, from about S5 on, they absolutely butchered GRRM's story for the sake of making a flashy, shocking TV show. That's also when a lot of fans of the books (like me!) gave up on the show and just stopped watching. They ruined so many great plotlines and characters that it's disgusting. And Team Catelyn all the way!
@@thing_under_the_stairsyeah through for me the show really died towards the end of season 4, to avoid spoilers, will just say in the Black cell with a certain revelation being omitted
While I had some problems with the later seasons of Game of Thrones, I do think that if they had stretched out the story over a few more seasons, then they could have told a better story. A lot of the problems with the later seasons was trying to do too much in too little time. @@thing_under_the_stairs
18:06 I love Bran's chapters. I don't know, there's a small segment of the fandom that find them boring. I find them so captivating! One thing I love about all the Stark POVs is that we get to see how much they think and care about each other. One of my favorite moments from the first book is when Bran catches Robb crying because he fears for their father. Also, Robb tries to comfort Bran when they get the bad news and holds his hand. It was so moving. And so many times, all the younger siblings when they are alone and in danger think to themselves, _I need to be strong like Robb._ I love that! I wish the show had captured that.
Me all the way through your Catelyn rant: “Yas! Preach!” Catelyn is a brilliant character and I don’t understand the hate she gets. You’re not going to hear any push back from me because we share quite a lot of opinions (aka, the correct opinions). Hilarious that you couldn’t wait to start the next book.
THANK YOU! I'm just so surprised that people can extend so much sympathy to our other flawed characters but can't seem to feel the same about Catelyn (or Sansa, but that's another conversation entirely haha)
She's hated because she did a lot of useless bullshit and retroactive damage to her side. 1 captured Tyrion 2 told Ned to trust Littlefinger 3 made a shitty deal with Walder Frey that would end up biting them. 4 gave Jaime to the Lannisters in exchange for her daughters even though she should'nt trust them.
It's great to hear this, because what I mostly hear today is backlash, due to the show, or due to him not finishing the series- But it's good to hear someone go back to the books and say, these books are actually very good. I think that gets lost in the conversation sometimes
It definitely has, just as someone who has been an "outsider" for so long. Whenever I heard about the series, it was always in the same breath as either "they'll never be finished" or "the last seasons were terrible". I think we've lost sight of why they were so popular in the first place - because they are incredible!
Her chapters doesn't hide her thought processes like Ned or Dany's, She has more experience and knowledge about Robert's Rebellion than the children pov and Tyrion. She also interacts with almost every other character.@@Bookborn
“No one is finally dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away, until the clock wound up winds down, until the wine she made has finished its ferment, until the crop they planted is harvested. The span of someone’s life is only the core of their actual existence.” - Sir Terry Pratchett This is how I feel about Ned as well, and Liene was on point with that one !
As long as you and I are alive, there will be at least 2 Catelyn fans. Everything you said is 100% on point, Catelyn is actually my favorite POV of the whole story, her chapters are so beautifully written, even more than the average ASOIAF chapter, and her conflicts and flaws always keep me enthralled. We are in complete agreement, and I go even further because to me she’s one of the greatest characters of all time.
I'd be shocked if she doesn't stay in my top female characters of all time. I get there are lots of books left so I don't want to say anything to quick, but as of now, she's just...SO WELL WRITTEN AND COMPLEX
@@Bookborn RIDICULOUSLY WELL WRITTEN AND COMPLEX….. And also so sarcastic and hilarious. I was also taken aback when I first learned how much the fandom hates her, because I personally love everything about her and her chapters.
Make it three🫡 Catelyn is SUCH a realistic charachter, and the facts that so much of the fandom seems to hate her more than people such as Tywin goddamn Lannister? Infuriates me. I love her
Ok, the fact that you said, "Winterfell is a character," by book two is a foreshadowing of how well you would review these books. Winterfell is more of a character than most Freys.
I honestly love Theon he is so complex and returning to pyke just reignited his identity crisis. The final chapter is amazing, all the mistakes he made through the book is coming towards him, being left behind from the people he so hard tries to be part of, and when he finally have a window of oportunity to redeem himself, its too late.
I also started reading ASOIAF this year! I’m 100 pages away from finishing A Dance with Dragons. I agree that the fact that a story is unfinished/ends badly doesn’t meant you shouldn’t start the series to enjoy the highs and lows of the story along the way. A rollercoaster of emotions await, can’t wait to see your thoughts of each book!
as someone who just finished ANOTHER read thru of the series, I can absolutely say that it's worth reading it, even without Winds not being out yet. waiting for Winds will just give you time to go back and appreciate the whole thing even more the second or third time through. not to mention getting into all the theorizing about what'll happen next! we've been combing thru these books so much the last decade, I think we have a pretty decent notion of a few big plot points that'll happen in the next one. but even so, just waiting for Martin's newest Prose is so so worth it.
I absolutely love that you are enjoying this books so much ! You aren't alone with your Catelyn opinions , I fully agree with you ! She is one of my favourite characters in the series
This series is amazing! It's like reading the books for the first time again. Catelyn is a prime example of a character that is derided because the fans don't LIKE what she does. But as a character, she is perfectly writing because everything she does is in character and well written
I'm so glad you're enjoying the journey :D I'm also a Catelyn and Sansa defender. I've rarely seen better female characters in media, and Catelyn might even be the best written mother I know. I think they are hated so much in the community because their flaws negatively affect other favorite characters. It's just so much more outrageous when a good guy does something bad to our favorites than a bad guy like Jamie. He's my absolute favorite character in all of media, but it's just easier to root for him when he does a good deed because he was introduced as a villain originally. In addition to the beautiful prose, I love the density of George's writing style. There are so many foreshadowings and little things that completely flew over my head. For example, that Renly is gay is pretty obvious, but I didn't notice it the first time I read it.
One of my favorite aspects to ASOIAF is that there are very few outright "evil" characters. Most characters are acting (mostly) rationally and in their own (or their houes') perceived self-interest. It makes everything, especially the conflicts, so much more relatable and interesting. It's why you can empathize with some truly horrible people sometimes. Lol.
I def think there are characters that are more in the wrong than others (admittedly, this is from just 2 books, so my opinion on the matter may change) but I do LOVE a book where when you are in everyone's perspectives, you can understand why they think they are right. That's difficult to do and also shows why Martin is such a good writer
The next book is on a whole different level. There are some genuinely shocking moments that I hope dont get spoiled. I totally agree with you on Theon. I didn't like seeing the world from his point of view. He was always gross and made my skin crawl.
I started EMPATHIZING with Theon. I started off this book with me ADORING his perspective only to start falling into a pit of despair and frustration after each passing Theon chapter.
11:03 he says in the first book, (his first chapter) that Jaime was the only member of his family who ever loved him and treated him kindly, and that he could forgive almost anything he does because of that, also, the thing about hiring a whore as his wife was a kindness in tyrions eyes, he thinks Jaime just wanted him to be happy and it was ruined once Tywin made him confess, so he’s not mad about it (which is crazy)
@@ciandryl I said ‘once Tywin made him confess’ as in when he made Jaime confess that she was a whore and that it was all planned not the other confession, it might sound like a spoiler if you know the book but I’m just talking about all the info we got from tyrions story, anyway let me know when you read this so we can delete these comments cuz these really would be spoilers lol
I love hearing your thoughts on this series! I could talk about it for hours, but most people are only into the show or just don’t get obsessed with characterization or prose to the same degree as I do, lol 😅 I’ll second that Martin doesn’t get enough credit for his writing chops. He moves seamlessly back and forth between description and dialogue in way that is pretty uniquely immersive. The entire series is very enjoyable in this regard, I'm looking forward to your reviews of the rest of them! Sansa and Catelyn also don’t get enough credit as interesting characters in their own right. Martin as always does a great job character nuance via incorporating their backstories into their internal monologues. For example, Cat often feels guilty for how she treated Jon, and Sansa still holds onto some romantic notions about knighthood and honor despite her trauma. I really wish there were more fantasy authors writing well rounded female characters like this, where their femininity is a big part of their identity, but they also have many unique experiences and traits that are specific to them. Abercrombie is probably close, but his books just don’t have the same diversity and variety of characters involved. Sanderson does a great job with representation, but I just don’t think he has the same talent as Martin in regards to character development (few do, haha)
Ok but I agree with literally everything you've said vis a vis Abercrombie and Sanderson. They are two of my favorite authors, but Martin does seem to blend their two talents together in this book and that's what makes it so fantastic
Agreed. I know GRRM has kind of proven its not necessary for having really good female characters, but i wish we had more prominent adult fantasy authors that are women. Im a man, and even if i try i will never really know how it is to have femininity as major part of identity. And while for most things, we are similar enough, there are things like motherhood, things from bodily perspective and Romance that are simply somewhat different between the sexes.
I am 1000% a fan of your correct Catelyn Stark takes. Catelyn is incredibly written. Not a word of any of her chapters passes where I am not hooked because of her emotional state and her complex emotions she feels about Jon, Jaime, Robb and so many others. Her conversation she had with Jaime in her final chapter is one I remember especially well. What a phenomenal character. I know you’re not watching the show, but I will say for the sake of it Michelle Fairley acts the SHIT out of Catelyn in the show. The quality of her acting is UNSUNG im so impressed by it.
Martin's TV background probably helps a lot, the prologue was like a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits episode in a way. Length is just right, we get just as much information we need etc.
@@Bookborn the book is called "Fire & Blood", the short stories are collected in "A Knight of the seven Kingdoms" and there is a lore and history book called "The World of Ice and Fire"
The series takes so many twists and turns and the characters change so much throughout. I am really interested to see who your favorites and most hated are by the (current) end
I know it seems hard to love Jaime at this point in time, every time I reread the series I think to myself, "wait maybe I don't like this guy as much as I remember..." and then I get to book 3 and remember why his chapters are so interesting. For his chapters, and later Brienne's, I would keep in mind that idea of knighthood you noticed in Sansa's chapters, it's one of my favourite recurring themes in the series. Another thing I love about ASOIAF that I don't see mentioned often is the disabled characters. ASOIAF has more disabled characters than any other series I have read (at least by the time of the last book) and they are all treated with just as much care and compassion and ambiguity as the other characters. Most often in fantasy when there are little people they are only halflings, hobbits, dwarves, fairies etc, small races who are specifically NOT HUMAN. Asoiaf actually has characters that are simply human beings with dwarfism, and I just love, love, love that. The way we see Tyrion struggle with the ableism of the society he lives in is so reflective of real life and refreshing to see discussed. GRRM is trying to establish that the setting of ASOIAF is not perfect, it's not to be idealized. ASOIAF is fantasy yes, but it's more interested in being a deconstruction of the genre itself. I love Cat dearly, and her relationship with Robb is my favourite familial relationship in the series. I've read all the books and it's still my favourite. It's sad and moving and tragic and everything I love in this series. Lastly, about Brienne, I have never read a female character, even ones written by women, that I relate to more than I relate to Brienne. I'm not joking or over exaggerating, she is my favourite female character. Ever. In my opinion, she is the moral heart of the series and her story is the most important thematically. A lot of my love for her comes from book 4, which is most people's least favourite, but it is my favourite.
I 100% agree about Shocking Deaths vs Shock-Factor Deaths. Every major death in ASOIAF has huge ripple effects after the fact. Hollywood is bad at this; someone dies for shock value and the story continues like nothing happened.
I’m a massive fan of the series since 2012. I would recommend Fire and Blood as well , especially the official audiobook narrated by Simon Vance. Been re-reading and listening to F&B for last one year
People who give "vague references" dont seem to realize that people some people can infer better than others and while a "vague reference" might not have given anything away to you, it could give someone else a clue that spoils the whole plot point. This only works in real life but of late I say "I am gonna read/see it, so not a word please!"
I've already been spoiled on (2) things... one isn't relevant (it's a late stage show spoiler that people assume was Martin's idea but hasn't materialized in any of the published books) and another one I'm hoping I misinterpreted 😬
If you loved ACoK, you’re gonna love A Storm of Swords. And it’s not her treatment of Jon that people dislike, it’s more the fact that her actions are in GoT are what set off the War of the Five Kings.
I know im a bit late, but regarding the House of the Undying - people love this one so much because it foreshadows basically Every. Single. Plotpoint throughout the rest of the story. Half the ASIOF theory videos you watch mention this chapter because there's just so much involved, gotta love it
Beautiful analysis. However, I don't understand how someone can skip pages and still feel like they understood the story fully! You skipped pages! It's like skipping an episode!
Admittedly those pages add to the characterisation for the mountain, but if the topic is genuinely upsetting for someone it seems perfectly fine to me to skip them. Her experience would have been worse if she did read it. And it wasn't that important anyway.
That was the best wanking material :P Jokes aside... it was the story Arya overheard about a rape. Nothing special, just a reason for Arya to make a very stupid choice to kill a smallfry instead of someone bigger.
The one thing that struck me about this series was how I loathed Jaime at the beginning and then he became one of my favorites. It was an amazing character arc from Martin.
@@Bookborn Its been 10+ years since I read these so my memory may be a little hazy. I don't think Jaime ever fundamentally changes. He's rational, pragmatic and devoted to his family, hence shove Bran off the tower. Its also not like he has an epiphany to be a better person. I think he is consistent but his circumstances and his families fragmentation result in choices and a direction that make you root for him. Fascinating.
Wait, sorry, so you haven't seen the show? Pretty impressive to go straight into ASOIAF w/o any GOT experience, in 2023. What a series. It only get's better. Some people don't like AFFC and ADWD as much as the first three, but I personally think they're great. But please, treat the fifth book as the series finale. The wait is long and full of terrors.
So glad you are enjoying these. A Storm of Swords held the title of "Last book I threw across a room" for a long time before I finally read The Way of Kings. Love when books illicit uncontrollable emotion.
The thing I loved about Catelyn in the first book was where you see how Tyrion sees her as opposed to how she talks in her own head. It tells me how oblivious a lot of the men are that they seem to think she's acting erratically because they can't pick up on the subtleties of her words and facial expressions and don't pay enough attention to her
Holy shit!! Asoiaf managed to convert you. And it didn't even have to rely on book 3 to do so. Edit: do not read the comments until you finish book 3. The next book goes in a direction that you probably won't expect. Best to go in blind. Edit 2: tHotU is absolutely insane on a reread. The way it connects to the overall asoiaf lore is amazing.
So...I'm worried I accidentally read a spoiler on Reddit. It wasn't in full context, but I'm trying to not think about it so that my brain can maybe forget it 😭But other than that I'm guessing there will still be a lot of twists and turns...
@@Bookborn Listen, you're talking to someone who was a dumb teen when GoT S1 came out and, in order to look cool to one of my asoiaf friends, tried to talk about S1 as if I'd seen it. And he spoiled Ned's death for me. Yeah, that happened. Then later on, I had just finished book 2 and was a little confused about the whereabouts of a character and so I went to the Ice & Fire wiki in order to get some context. I *really* tried to be careful this time and yet..... there it was. "DIED IN (Year) AT (Place)". And this was another major character, mind you. But trust me. These books are so dense and rich that knowing these spoilers didn't ruin anything for me. The *way* stuff happens is far more interesting than the stuff itself. GRRM is a master of setup and he's already set up almost every event that's going to happen in book 3. You just didn't pick up on it because it seems like a random detail. Just keep reading and enjoy the ride. Be careful about spoilers but don't stress out over it. This story is far too enjoyable to be ruined by a mere spoiler or two. ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... But yeah, reddit is 100x worse than your comment section. Avoid it until you've read book 3.
I’m right there with you. Reading the series for the first time and halfway through Storm of Swords. I can’t remember, have you not seen the show? I was worried how I viewed the characters would be tainted by the characterizations from the series but I’m finding I have my own unique versions of them in my head reading the books.
I feel like there is no other author and series that Feels more real than asoiaf...and it has magic haha. Every single character feels like...if I were them, I would think say and do what they would think, say, and do what they do. It's so immersive, and it just keeps growing, the more you know. The depth of secret, mysterious world building and symbolism is beyond compare. Then, when you read the blood and fire history, it Really gives you this sense that this is just a slice in the history of a real world. Like at any point in the history of westeros you could just pick up and write a seven book masterpiece. Incredible
I honestly don't know what curse is on Kat that makes so many readers dislike her, as if she were the only flawed character. She's mean to Jon? Yes! But only in her head! Before that goodbye scene between Jon and Bran, she has never openly mistreated him or even talked to him. And she has every right to dislike Jon, she knows how dangerous a bastard son is to her own sons. And come on, Jon starts out as a rich spoiled brat who's mean and very aggressive towards people he considers "beneath him", things are just given to him, he barely has to try anything. He's just as naive and deluded about how the world works as Sansa is and people hate this in Sansa, but kinda forget that Jon is just like her and worship him. And there is Dany, I love her, everyone loves her, but readers also kinda forget that she's very racist sometimes, her whole arc in Essos has been full of racist thoughts and orientalism, partly because she's supposed to be like that, she's not perfect and we can still like her and because we have a white writer, no matter how great he is, but he's writing about a non-white culture that he can't possible fully understand. And, like you said, Jaime pushed a kid from a very high window and people still like him. I will always defend Kat. She's not my favorite character, but her chapters are my favorite. They're so intelligent, beautiful, poetic and full of emotions and details. They're perfect.
Catelyn’s scene in the rural sept before meeting with Renly is some of the most beautiful prose in all of the novels imo. one of my favorite scenes from all five books.
I'm often baffled by the hate Catelyn and Sansa get from the Fandom. They are not perfect. Yes Catelyn is mean to Jon. Yes Sansa reported to Cersei... But you understand where this is coming from (and Sansa is a child!!). Nonetheless, they get more hate than any other character because we don't forgive their mistakes even though some of the other beloved characters do so much worse... And I think part of it comes from internalized sexist reflexes. They both are the most feminine figures in the books. And we don't forgive women for not being perfect. For not behaving like men (Arya is a tomboy and people love her for that, she's a girl who refuses to be girly). A whole study could be done on this topic!
Catelyn is a great character because she makes me feel sympathy but also so upset at her at the same time LOL. I always thought that the angst about her stems from her kicking off the events of GoT. Her decision to capture Tyrion, which leads to Ned being injured and spur the Lannister's to watch him more closely. Tyrion's capture was based on poor logic, and little proof and she easily understood that she risked war and death for her husband and children (A great character moment, but still...). Sansa also a great character but starts her character arc starts off where all her decisions are based on how things affect her and her (somewhat naive) dream which IMHO can be really off putting when coupled with her initial classism. That aside I think the main reason she gets so much hate has to do with her unintended betrayal of her father (again a great character moment but still lead to Ned's death).
Capturing Tyrion was absolutely an emotional reaction rather than a logical one but idk I just understand it SO MUCH which is why I think I have so much sympathy, even though it was obviously a terrible decision.
@@Bookborn I don't disagree with you at all, the decision is perfectly in-line with her character and absolutely necessary for the story. it is part of the tapestry that is integral to the story and I would never want to change it. I can't even say that I wouldn't make the same decision, I just understand why there is such a degree of Catelyn angst. in fact I think just shows how awesome of a character she is, that she elicits such strong emotion for actions that no one argues is out of character To expand, not only does it serve the character, but the scene also works on so many other levels. It reinforces that these are complex flawed characters (as no one makes perfect decisions, not even Tyrion and other intelligent characters that you will encounter soon) and there are believable, unintended, and undesired consequences to many of the decisions in the series. I also think this scene establishes the trend of ASOIAF nobles making emotional decisions from a place of relative safety or immediate advantage and how others often bear the costs of those choices (especially with reader 20/20 hindsight).
I agree that it's an emotional decision and a bad one in hindsight but the funny thing is Ned would have done the exact same thing. So would Rob or Jon. All the Starks have this trait of responding emotionally to justice even if it's not in their better interest to do so. Ned is not acting cautious after Tyrion's capture, he's gearing up to take the fight to the Lannisters. Cat really does believe Tyrion tried to kill Bran. And to be fair to her she had no idea what Lysa had become.
I actually love Cat. I was surprised when I found out others hated her. I think her problems are John, while not excusable, are understandable even if I don’t agree with them. She cares deeply for her family and I think for her John represents a threat to the family
I read the series when I was seventeen in 2013. I never liked the show after season 3 or 4, so its poor ending didn't affect me. For a long time, I thought I wouldn't read the series again until the next book came, but watching your review on GOT made me change my mind. I had forgotten how much I liked reading these books. It is also interesting to come back and read them as a more mature/experienced reader than I was as a teenager. I feel like I missed a lot of things on my first read, so it's almost like I'm reading it again for the first time. Looking forward to your review of Storm of Swords! It was my favorite book on my first read-through of the series.
OOH it's SO fun to be able to read a book as an adult that you read as a teen. I did that with Wheel of Time - I wasn't a teen when I read them but was super early 20s, and when I reread in my 30s I was shocked at how my perception of characters had changed based on my life experience. I feel like that would be doubled with a book like ASOIAF!
I just completed the second book (after watching and rewatching the shows a few years ago) and personally, my favorite POVs have to be Jon, Daenrys, Bran and Davos. The show did a good job of showing the political side of game of thrones but the magic!! The magic of the universe was missing and after reading I found out of just how much we robbed of.
I also mistakenly call this book Clash of Clans, but that's because I currently play that game! I'm in a semi active clan with some old friends, so I don't think it's a stupid game 😂
Hahaha the catelyn defence is amazing. Starting the next book right after is real degen energy and I love it The enthusiasm here is awesome to see, 32 minutes and it feels like you could have gone longer
* Glad to hear the Catelyn and Sansa love. Those are two POV characters who are so much better than a lot of people give them credit for. * Can understand that Dany's House of the Undying stuff is probably better on a re-read. I distinctly remember reading that the first time and just sort of shrugging and guessing it'd make sense later. Also, I totally get the issues with Dany being removed from the story too much. Dany is always detached to some extent but Book 2 she feels especially so. * Totally respect you skipping that one section. It's a pretty grim story that serves the purpose of being why someone's name is on Arya's list but, yes, is pretty horrific even if it's someone "telling not showing" as it were. * I think GRRM's treatment of women is interesting because - as you said - female readers will always defend his female characters as being really well written. It's not the usual instance of horny old author doesn't understand women at all. And he's far from the worst offender I've ever read but it does still come up from time to time. I've been meaning to do a re-read and see if the objectification are more commonly in POVs that are attracted to women, in which case it might be an interesting writing choice. If not, then he's just a good writer who writes good female characters but still falls victim to the naughty thoughts sometimes. * I think you're approaching these books with the right mindset and all the people scoffing at the idea you'll be disappointed there may never be an ending will be proven wrong. You went in KNOWING you'd likely not get an ending so will be more mentally prepared for it at the end. I was disappointed too at first but over the years, after a re-read, I've become more an "I enjoyed the journey even if we never got to the destination" kind of mindset which really feels like a healthier way to view the series overall. Even if we eventually get Winds, we may still never get Dream, so let's just enjoy what we got.
Awesome that book 2 managed to rope you in like this, book 3 is widely considered to be the best one with some of my personal favorite scenes so it only goes up from here. Also THANK YOU for defending Cat, you and Glidus are the only youtubers I’ve watched who don’t just blindly hate her.
If you are reading A Storm of Swords, leave the internet now!!!! until you are done with that book....don't look back just leave. You will spend so much time in silence after you finish some crucial chapters, have fun.
One good point previously mentioned was that if Sansa and Arya switched their experiences growing up, that is, each going through what the other went though, neither one of them would have survived
Catelyn remains one of my favs. I knew immediately when you mentioned a hated character it was going to be her. Cat also has to worry about Jon as a threat to her children as heirs. There’s a long history of inter family feuds in this world and the medieval world. Doesn’t excuse her treatment of him, but it makes sense.
I have to say that one of the most brilliant and not discussed enough parts of this series for me has always been writing an epic story about a young heroic king from the perspective of his mother. *chefs kiss*
Lol I was wondering what you'd think about that Arya scene. How can you skip it?! it's so important to the Clegane brothers relationship, about why Sandor hates knights and the establishment and why the Mountain, and therefore Tywin are such an utter pieces of shit.
I think the best way I've seen someone summaries how incredibly and masterfully effective George's prologues are in ASOIAF across the board - character writing, worldbuilding, atmosphere, dialogue etc. etc. - was Will from the "Unresolved Textual Tension" podcast describing Martin as being first and foremost a phenomenal short story writer. I think that's a great way of approaching the prologue chapters (as self-contained short stories) to be able to analyze and see the intricate techniques particular to that genre of witting being deftly utilized to pack a punch with so little page time. As for Catelyn (and Sansa) literally GO 👏 OFF 👏 QUEEN 👏 I have A LOT to say about fandom where these two in particular are concerned but I won't say more here because I don't want to start a fight in your comment section but also some of it might be spoiler-y BUT I want you to know I'm with you on every word you've said here!!!
wow I never even thought of it like that but YES!! Both prologues have been a SHORT STORY and have a full arc which is probably why they work so well. AND SANSA AND CATELYN FOREVER THANK YOU
I believe that you're not supposed to like the way Martin writes about women's bodies. The negative focus on men's views of women is part of the subject of the story. Also, it is a look at how women used use sex and their sensuality to gain power, manipulating men.
Glad you are enjoying the series. Its great to see your enthusiasm. It’s been a good while since I read the original books but I’ve just started A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms which is also set in Westeros. Loving it so far.
Does anyone know what story she’s talking about she skipped in the Arya chapter? Been a while since I’ve read acokings and can’t remember anything remotely similar…
I had always been hesitant to read ASOIAF because of the show and earlier this year I began reading the series and a few weeks later you released your first video about aGoT and now right after I read aCoK you release a video about it. I love that you are going on the exact same journey. It really is an amazing series and so far I can understand all the hype.
The first 4 seasons are some of the best television ever to be filmed. Just like the books, even if it ended in tragedy, it is TOTALLY worth it to see this fantastic world realized in amazing fashion. Just treat season 5 and after as bad fanfic.
I dont think cersei actually loves her children (maybe myrcella to some extend), but joffrey and tommen she views mainly as extensions of herself and as a vehical to her own power. But this interpretation is mainly book 4 based
First of all welcome to the community of ASOIAF! Speaking on the Catelyn hot topic, I am someone who uploads ASOIAF content regularly, and can say she is one of the hardest povs for me to place. Personally I don't like Catelyn as a character, but she is by far one of the best povs of the story. Like u mentioned she has a lot of the most interesting and important chapters. Also, she is just a very human character without getting into spoilers, she is the one character that seems too real because of her struggles. Excited to see your reaction to Storm it is by far regarded as the best book, but personally mine is Clash because I am a team Stannis guy
14:55 “I haven’t read books three, four, or five” man that stung to hear after your (correct) ardent defending of Catelyn lol (made sure you already reviewed Storm of Swords before commenting)
I cant get enough of this. Love this long form review. This series deserves and requires it. Cat is an amazing character and imo is the best "mother" in all of fantasy. Character wise. I love her. Annnnd I have to add I am so envious of you getting to experience all of this fresh. Well as fresh as someone can lol
Know that the Shows follow a different story path than the books! There is some things that the show will spoil for you, but Overall, they are 2 separate entities. Enjoy the journey! Its my favorite book series ever and there is so much there even without it being done. edit: DEFEND CATELYN!!!!
@@Bookborn Honestly, thats for the best! The first 4 seasons of the show are very good and close to the books, but s5 on onwards its drastically different. Books>>>>>>>Show
@@Bookborn you should consider watching the show! It improves upon several of the characters with the changes it makes. Even George R.R. Martin prefers the show versions of certain characters. My favorite monologue in the entire series is also exclusive to the show ("chaos is a ladder"). There's a reason why it was such a hit.
@@Bookborn fair enough, the show goes well beyond the books there. I'm not sure how well a fan edit to censor/blur the gore and nudity would work. In addition to its infamous "sexposition" (combining exposition and sex scenes), the show has a bad habit of turning consenual encounters into SA and adding entirely new instances of SA
Catelyn is hated for other reasons too. She's not a great diplomat (and isn't very aware of it) and can be blamed for starting the war by illegally (and unjustly) imprisoning Tyrion
I'm so glad you loved the book. I was also late to the IP (I read the books 2015-2017 and didn't watch the show until 2020), but I actively avoided spoilers for YEARS because I wanted the non-spoiler experience. It wasn't easy, but it was worth it. I loved the books and not being spoiled made it much better. I spent LOTS of time thinking about the characters and their motivations as I read the books and actively looked for youtube videos that discussed plot points I already read about (and not spoil what was still ahead of me). It was honestly hard work to walk on that tightrope, but I enjoyed the books so much that they drove me to that level of fandom. I'm excited for your to read the rest of the series because I think your fandom will only grow from here.
@@Bookborn I completely understand and I wish you well on your journey through A Song of Ice and Fire. When done reading (and if still hungry for consuming more from ASoIaF), I recommend checking out videos from creators: In Deep Geek, Alt Shift X, whycreate, and Preston Jacobs. I love your channel and I hope you can provide some more reading recommendations for kids!
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The third book, A Storm of Swords, is regarded by many as one of the best fantasy novels ever.
I've heard that from sooo many people. About 150 pages in and it's already🔥
@@agustinferri7299Has she even seen the show? I genuinely don't know.
Is this your first time through ASoIaF? @@Bookborn
@@svenningenshe said in her game of thrones review that it is her first time :)
@@aminaa5824 i must've missed it, thanks! I remember being totally engrossed on my first round as well! Such a good read
Always wonderful to hear a new reader's perspective! You're in for quite a ride with the next few books.
Hey it’s quinn!
OMG QUINN
Love your videos!
lol quinn what are you doing here :D
ariana what are u doing here
New member of the Catelyn Defense Squad!! We’re happy to have you ⚔️
She’s one of the most realistic and complex characters I’ve ever read about. Not female characters, not fantasy characters, just one of the best characters period!
But she is the reason the starks lost
@@Mohler41 it was hers neds robbs and sansas fault
@@Mohler41 That doesn't mean that she's not an interesting, well written character. I think Cersei's one of the most interesting characters in the series even though she's an absolutely terrible person. Blaming a fictional character and disliking them for events in a book's plot that they were written into is rather immature imho.
@@Mohler41holy shit dude please delete this. Major spoiler
@@Mohler41 no Robb was warned n by his mother repeatedly from what I remember
“…shocking but not shock factor.” 7:20
This is exactly what the show runners did not understand and what makes George so good. Great observation.
They understood it in the early seasons. Some of the best scenes in season 1 are only in the show. (There are still some stinkers for sure, like Baelish’s infamous brothel scene)
Tywin’s introduction, Cersei and Robert talking about their marriage, Robert, Barristan and Jaime talking about killing. Ned saying “Baelor!” to make his last action saving Arya.
However, as soon as the books ran out they resorted to mostly cheap shock factor and genital jokes for runtime. But I WILL give them credit for genuinely great additions in the early series.
i totally agree that this is the biggest challenge for the show after the book finished.
@@DongusMcBongusI wouldnt even say it was just they ran out of books, they alsu purposely akipped whole chunks with no plans on how to fill in the gaps later on
@kingdancekiller they understood it in the early seasons because they were working under George's framework lol. D&D aren't total hacks they did have some genuinely good original material but even that I question how much was George involved with. He had a heavy hand in every early season so honestly who's to say stuff like Arya and tywin wasn't his idea.
It's not shocking, it's tragic.
Bookborn reading ASOIAF is the booktube event of the year imo
😅
Curtis commenting on a Bookborn video is the crossover of my life
@@lkay398 Lkay commenting on my comment made this a good day
I think the biggest problem GRRM has caused himself by never finishing the books to this point is to make readers inadvertently forget how insanely good this series was/is because we're so put off by his lack of output. In reality, ASOIAF stills stands head and shoulders above just about every modern fantasy series out there.
Yep, I def think this is true! The conversation has become so focused on him not finishing that it's hard to remember why everyone cared so much in the first place lol (That's just as an outsider, based on what I heard about the series before starting)
I think you're dead on in that assessment@@Bookborn
It does make me sad man. I am rooting for you George.
In a wierd way I orefer they at least stay good like I remmeber them than have something put out that is terrible like with what happend with Dune. Though it had a whole different author in the latter half but it really ruined the series
I don’t think he will ever finish the books before he dies.
I am praying you don’t get spoiled on anything too major. A genuine fresh reaction to asoiaf in 2023 is like finding a unicorn
Honestly these books are so good that even with spoilers they are good, a good story is meant to be told a thousand times, not just one
But there's a whole island of unicorns on skagos.
Glad you loved Clash! A suggestion: I recommend reading "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" in between "A Storm of Swords" and "A Feast For Crows". It is a collection of three short stories in the ASOIAF universe that were released alongside the main series and were meant to be breezier reads that are lighter in tone. Reading it is not required to understand what happens in the main series, but Feast and Dance reference characters, concepts, and imagery from the stories in small and big ways. I found the connections rewarding to discover and they enriched GRRM's excellent worldbuilding even further. Plus, its a fun read!
I second this.
It’s also being adapted into the next HBO spin-off that is scheduled to start filming early next year.
I totally agree! You should definitely read these three short stories, ideally before AFFC because.....reasons ( potential future spoilers I want to avoid )
Dunk and egg stories are very interesting but not nearly as long.
You said "short stories" and I said OK BUYING NOW
I love Dunk and Egg because its written on such a small geographic scale \with rich detail and characters. Just another example of Martin's genius as an author.
If you like the prose now, wait until you get to A Feast for Crows. You will meet a septon who will have a monologue that is probably the most beautiful thing I've ever read (and I think a lot of people in the fandom agree this is the pinnacle of Martin's prose).
The Broken Man monologue is so good.
Oooh looking forward to it 👀
The broken man monologue is the thesis statement for ASOIAF. I get why some people aren’t a fan of AFFC, but imo it’s got some of the best writing in the whole series and in some ways represent the emotional heart of the story
Omg yes.... AFFC is my favourite book in the series, precisely because of how insightful Martin is about the human condition. I love it so much!
AFFC was so much better on the reread IMHO my 2nd favorite book of the series
I think Catelyn perspective is important to the story not only due to the situations she gets herself in but also because of how unique is her role in the overall story. She was married to Ned and brought to an unfamiliar place she did not like not for love but because of the duty she had towards her familly, the Tullys, but with time she learned to love her husband and her childrens and was satisfied with her life in Winterfell. She is the one who is suffering the most from the ongoing war, like, her husband is dead, as well as two of her children (as far as she knows), her only two daughters are being captive in King's landing and the son she still has is often leading an army to battle and does not even seems to want her there at all. It is interesting to see how the love and grief for her shattered family leads her to do some very questionable decisions as well as the impact they will have on the later books.
YES YES YES!!! You GET IT!
She did NOT listen to Ned. She was told to go to the North prepare the cranogmen and moat Caitlin with 100 bowmen. She didn’t do her job. And fucked up every possible thing she could by being emotional and irrational. She failed Ned, and Robb because she couldn’t do what she was told. But it’s justified because she had REASON to be emotional. That’s the exact reason Ned sent her away.
"I'm so concerned for Robb" - I love hearing this in 2023, and seeing the ASoS thumbnail right below it.
My concern was very founded 😭😭😭
I really love the poetic ending of this book, mayby the most memorable one for me in general (any other meditative literature like this?):
"At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell’s chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either."
Not me getting emotional reading that again 😭
I was taken by that but on my second read through and it’s really stuck with me, ever since.
It brings tears to my eyes every time 😭 Not only is it so moving because Winterfell is HOME to so many of our POVs, it's also touching for the connection Bran feels to it as a newly disabled person. It's so well done.
😭😭😭
@@ancatdal Plus, Winterfell is the first place we see in ASIOF after the prologue, it's like we're losing the anchor.
Cheers to what you said about Catelyn! This series is important to me because it was the first adult fantasy I read that had complex, believable, and fascinating female characters. Not just one but several! If I did a favorite fantasy characters video, ASOIAF would probably dominate that list. Loved hearing your first-time thoughts on A Clash of Kings! ☄️
YES!! I now see why so many people were sad I hadn't read ASOIAF when I did my favorite female characters video. There are SO many good ones in here already
Dianna wynne Jones does a good job of making great female characters for fantasy
Her only redeeming quality is loving her children by blood.
This was excellent and I can't wait for a 50 minute storm of swords one
No comment on my Catelyn section? You don't want to publicly state how fed up you are with me DMing you daily about Catelyn supremacy?
@@Bookborn Catelyn is a complex character with good and bad in her, like everyone else. I merely don't fall for her shtick just because she's a MOM, Bookborn
@@readbykyle3082thanks kyle for gettting bookborn to read asoiaf
It is so great seeing new people discover these books!
If I had it to do all over again I would never read the series. I've been reading the series since 2003 and knowing that we are never getting resolution with the series is more painful than never reading it IMHO
@@deadcaptainjames6045 it makes me really sad too, but i think it's still totally worth reading. Although I only started the books a couple of years ago, so i feel for you. 2003? Damn
I know there aren't many losers like me left who have never gotten into it, but it's so fun discovering a new series that's so incredible for the first time again. It's been a while since I felt this way!
I’m honestly interested in reading it. But I’m also scared of it never being finished. But as of now, I haven’t read any of it.
@@deadcaptainjames6045we know how it’s going to end. The endings from the show are from George. The main general endings. It will just arrive there differently. I’d bet money on this
“Look, if there are one million Catelyn fans in the world, I am one of them. If there is one Catelyn fan in this world, it is me. If there are no Catelyn fan’s in this world, I am dead.” 😆 I LoL’d so hard at this. You nailed that joke! 💯
If there are no stark house allies all you need is catelyn to destroy the protagonists
It looks like you already recognised the holy trinity of Martin's writing: dialogue, deaths, and unexpected plot twists that still make perfect sense in retrospect.
he is also the master of forshadowing :)
Tbh his plot twists are mostly deaths
We are conditioned to be unforgiving of imperfect female characters but will laud characters like Tony Soprano/Walter White. I love Catelyn and I love Sansa.
And that’s 👏🏻 the 👏🏻 tea 👏🏻
I think that's mostly misogyny in action. The fanboys want their antiheroes to be allowed to do whatever they want with zero consequences, and expect all the female characters to meekly stand by their man, even when it's putting them and their families in danger. But if a fictional woman makes the slightest mistake, or in the case of Sansa acts like a *real* sheltered teenage girl, they crucify her. But in GRRM's world, actions have consequences, and both worried mothers and naive teen girls are deserving of respect and compassion. And sometimes they're smarter than the men around them, too!
Most guys I know don’t see Walter white as a laudable figure. At the beginning he starts off as relatable to a degree but you see him “break bad” so to speak
@@thing_under_the_stairs you lost me at misogyny and even further at "they're smarter than the men around them" Its not even a trope "fanboys" believes on the opposite scale. Imagine if a fanboy said that about his male favorite.
Female Anti heroes are plenty that has not only the respect of their fan but absolute recongnition of their importance and the challenge they had to face.
Few to name on top of my mind: Galadriel, Eowyn, Sarah Connor, Cat Woman, Olenna Tyrell.
Females with personal flaws, flawed motives but truly inspiring, ground shaking in their approach and execution.
People have problem with bad writing and there is plenty to go around. While there *IS* a certain bias when it comes to expectations of character, this is a biased and great misunderstanding on your part to simply make a judgement by association of what it means.
Sheltered naive teenage girl are annoying and GRRM made it so purposely because it serves his story.
Joffrey was overall hatred as hell for similar reasons on top of his viciousness BUT it was throwing several lessons with it to the audience on top of flashes of brilliance for his character.
Tommen as king was SOOOO PAINFUL and annoying for the same reason as Sansa which made us miss Joffrey. That was also intended.
Sansa's story point is showing that shes a remarkable survivalist that can adapt on a whim despite the most horrible of events. As Tyrion said: You may survive us yet.
Joffrey's point was to show that we can desire the worst of fate for a 8 years old sociopath that was just overly sheltered with bad parents with no understanding or knowledge of kindness and purpose. He had good ideas few times: The crown should have its own army instead of rellying on houses and their politics, they should handle Deanarys now before her Dragons becomes a problem. We were all missing him when the religious radicals took over even if they were populists.
Tommen's point was similar to Sansa on the difference of never adapting and being very soft and sensitive. Made the famous debate: are elitist nobles better than radical religious populists? Why are we in love with noble medieval houses that starves and profit from their peasants that they have disdain for? Hence why we missed Joffrey that we wanted dead prior who was just an 8 year old.
Its not about misogyny and even if your case was true - thats not what it means.
@@warallied Well, you lost me as soon as you dismissed the use of the term 'misogyny', so I guess that's even.
I actually really enjoyed reading Catelyn’s chapters! Partially because I really love Robb and everything to do with the King in the North stuff and we only see that through Catelyn, but she’s also written really well. Was surprised you didn’t talk about one of my absolute favorite chapters in the whole series (which is a Catelyn chapter) where Catelyn gets Jaime drunk in his cell and they have some of the best dialogue!
Oh man it's so hard to talk about everything but that chapter was SO GOOD. Also filled with tension. It was also exciting for me because I know so many people just love Jaime and basically I've gotten nothing of him yet. So I really enjoyed getting to understand him slightly better.
Catelyn does not hate jon as much as she fears him. She does not care that Ned had another child but is bothered that he is raising him as if he was a true born son. She does not fear that he will take Winterfell over Robb, but she does fear that the children he has will, because they will be true born and have a really good claim to Winterfell.
Yes, I think the fear of Jon is such a good element to bring into her character. It's complicated!!
Ned could make legal Stark.
@@sophiawilson8696 no, I believe only a king can legitmise a bastard. Ned was technically hand of a king for a time, so maybe then he would be able to.
No she hates him for simply being mothered by anothe woman. Fear is a factor but it’s mostly due to him living amongst her true born children and he also looks the most like Ned outside of Arya which plays a factor as well.
One of Caitlyn's problems with Jon is that Jon looks like a Stark, while most of her children don't. Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are all redheads with Tully blue eyes. One look at Jon's dark hair and gray eyes tells everyone who his father is.
Gave me chills all over again describing some of those scenes/moments/characters. I want books 6 and 7 as much as anyone else but I do not regret reading this series in 2022-2023 at all. This video was EPIC! #TeamCatelyn
YES, no regrets! Although my friend did joke to me that she'll be so angry if I read the books this late and then suddenly George decides to publish next year or something and I didn't have to wait at all 🤣
@@BookbornI'd say I'm with your friend on that one, but tbh I'd have to be an insane person to have any reason to complain that the wait was finally over for any of us, new or old fans
Don't worry, the Sophie Turner divorce and the 'spoiler headlines' have nothing to do with the books, because the show went past the books and basically wrote fan fiction for multiple seasons. Also, I agree with EVERYTHING with what you said about Catelyn. She's my favourite POV, it's so interesting and essential and she does not deserve the hate she gets.
OH GOOD! lol I was like nooooo is this telling me that my worries about Robb being dead are already coming true ☠
@@Bookborn Yeah, from about S5 on, they absolutely butchered GRRM's story for the sake of making a flashy, shocking TV show. That's also when a lot of fans of the books (like me!) gave up on the show and just stopped watching. They ruined so many great plotlines and characters that it's disgusting.
And Team Catelyn all the way!
@@thing_under_the_stairsyeah through for me the show really died towards the end of season 4, to avoid spoilers, will just say in the Black cell with a certain revelation being omitted
@@oliviawilliams6204 We could even say mid-season 4, when one character was swapped for another that the showrunners made up entirely for... reasons?
While I had some problems with the later seasons of Game of Thrones, I do think that if they had stretched out the story over a few more seasons, then they could have told a better story. A lot of the problems with the later seasons was trying to do too much in too little time. @@thing_under_the_stairs
18:06 I love Bran's chapters. I don't know, there's a small segment of the fandom that find them boring. I find them so captivating! One thing I love about all the Stark POVs is that we get to see how much they think and care about each other. One of my favorite moments from the first book is when Bran catches Robb crying because he fears for their father. Also, Robb tries to comfort Bran when they get the bad news and holds his hand. It was so moving. And so many times, all the younger siblings when they are alone and in danger think to themselves, _I need to be strong like Robb._ I love that! I wish the show had captured that.
Me all the way through your Catelyn rant: “Yas! Preach!” Catelyn is a brilliant character and I don’t understand the hate she gets. You’re not going to hear any push back from me because we share quite a lot of opinions (aka, the correct opinions). Hilarious that you couldn’t wait to start the next book.
THANK YOU! I'm just so surprised that people can extend so much sympathy to our other flawed characters but can't seem to feel the same about Catelyn (or Sansa, but that's another conversation entirely haha)
She's hated because she did a lot of useless bullshit and retroactive damage to her side.
1 captured Tyrion
2 told Ned to trust Littlefinger
3 made a shitty deal with Walder Frey that would end up biting them.
4 gave Jaime to the Lannisters in exchange for her daughters even though she should'nt trust them.
I don't think shes hated as a character, but as a person. Shes written really well, no one could deny that.
It's great to hear this, because what I mostly hear today is backlash, due to the show, or due to him not finishing the series- But it's good to hear someone go back to the books and say, these books are actually very good. I think that gets lost in the conversation sometimes
It definitely has, just as someone who has been an "outsider" for so long. Whenever I heard about the series, it was always in the same breath as either "they'll never be finished" or "the last seasons were terrible". I think we've lost sight of why they were so popular in the first place - because they are incredible!
@@Bookborn 100%!
@@Bookborn 100%!
@@Bookbornabsolutely.
I think that Catelyn has the best chapters consistently.
yep I agree
yes, exactly, you get it!
Her chapters doesn't hide her thought processes like Ned or Dany's, She has more experience and knowledge about Robert's Rebellion than the children pov and Tyrion. She also interacts with almost every other character.@@Bookborn
Nah Tyrion
“No one is finally dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away, until the clock wound up winds down, until the wine she made has finished its ferment, until the crop they planted is harvested. The span of someone’s life is only the core of their actual existence.”
- Sir Terry Pratchett
This is how I feel about Ned as well, and Liene was on point with that one !
GNU Sir Terry.
As long as you and I are alive, there will be at least 2 Catelyn fans. Everything you said is 100% on point, Catelyn is actually my favorite POV of the whole story, her chapters are so beautifully written, even more than the average ASOIAF chapter, and her conflicts and flaws always keep me enthralled. We are in complete agreement, and I go even further because to me she’s one of the greatest characters of all time.
I'd be shocked if she doesn't stay in my top female characters of all time. I get there are lots of books left so I don't want to say anything to quick, but as of now, she's just...SO WELL WRITTEN AND COMPLEX
@@Bookborn RIDICULOUSLY WELL WRITTEN AND COMPLEX….. And also so sarcastic and hilarious. I was also taken aback when I first learned how much the fandom hates her, because I personally love everything about her and her chapters.
Make it three🫡 Catelyn is SUCH a realistic charachter, and the facts that so much of the fandom seems to hate her more than people such as Tywin goddamn Lannister? Infuriates me. I love her
@@siljapeters2836Tywin is a wayy better character anyway
@@sathira_anuk5179 thats up for debate but I think its pretty objectively clear that Tywin is a worse PERSON than her
Ok, the fact that you said, "Winterfell is a character," by book two is a foreshadowing of how well you would review these books. Winterfell is more of a character than most Freys.
I honestly love Theon he is so complex and returning to pyke just reignited his identity crisis. The final chapter is amazing, all the mistakes he made through the book is coming towards him, being left behind from the people he so hard tries to be part of, and when he finally have a window of oportunity to redeem himself, its too late.
I also started reading ASOIAF this year! I’m 100 pages away from finishing A Dance with Dragons. I agree that the fact that a story is unfinished/ends badly doesn’t meant you shouldn’t start the series to enjoy the highs and lows of the story along the way. A rollercoaster of emotions await, can’t wait to see your thoughts of each book!
OOH! So has it been worth it to you to read them even though they are unfinished?
as someone who just finished ANOTHER read thru of the series, I can absolutely say that it's worth reading it, even without Winds not being out yet. waiting for Winds will just give you time to go back and appreciate the whole thing even more the second or third time through. not to mention getting into all the theorizing about what'll happen next! we've been combing thru these books so much the last decade, I think we have a pretty decent notion of a few big plot points that'll happen in the next one. but even so, just waiting for Martin's newest Prose is so so worth it.
@@Bookborn 100% !!
I absolutely love that you are enjoying this books so much ! You aren't alone with your Catelyn opinions , I fully agree with you ! She is one of my favourite characters in the series
Seems that she tends to be very polarizing! At least I'm finding more of MY PEOPLE in the comments 🤣
Davos is my favorite character in the series. Him and Catelyn are just so much more mature and self-aware than everyone else in the story.
The only reason I didnt like his PoVs was because ot made me angry that such a good man is dependent on Stannis (aka the Heartless mannis)
This series is amazing! It's like reading the books for the first time again.
Catelyn is a prime example of a character that is derided because the fans don't LIKE what she does. But as a character, she is perfectly writing because everything she does is in character and well written
Totally agree! Although I maybe am less critical of her decisions than I should be 🤣🤣🤣
I loved Catlin as well! She was my favorite and it was sad
I'm so glad you're enjoying the journey :D
I'm also a Catelyn and Sansa defender. I've rarely seen better female characters in media, and Catelyn might even be the best written mother I know.
I think they are hated so much in the community because their flaws negatively affect other favorite characters. It's just so much more outrageous when a good guy does something bad to our favorites than a bad guy like Jamie. He's my absolute favorite character in all of media, but it's just easier to root for him when he does a good deed because he was introduced as a villain originally.
In addition to the beautiful prose, I love the density of George's writing style. There are so many foreshadowings and little things that completely flew over my head. For example, that Renly is gay is pretty obvious, but I didn't notice it the first time I read it.
One of my favorite aspects to ASOIAF is that there are very few outright "evil" characters. Most characters are acting (mostly) rationally and in their own (or their houes') perceived self-interest. It makes everything, especially the conflicts, so much more relatable and interesting. It's why you can empathize with some truly horrible people sometimes. Lol.
I def think there are characters that are more in the wrong than others (admittedly, this is from just 2 books, so my opinion on the matter may change) but I do LOVE a book where when you are in everyone's perspectives, you can understand why they think they are right. That's difficult to do and also shows why Martin is such a good writer
@@Bookborn Just wait until you get to some Cersei POV chapters!
The next book is on a whole different level. There are some genuinely shocking moments that I hope dont get spoiled.
I totally agree with you on Theon. I didn't like seeing the world from his point of view. He was always gross and made my skin crawl.
It's funny, Most of the characters become more sympathetic when they get POVs, and somehow he becomes worse.
@@jonrazo7912 I completely agree. I understand the purpose of The on, but still he's just awful.
I started EMPATHIZING with Theon. I started off this book with me ADORING his perspective only to start falling into a pit of despair and frustration after each passing Theon chapter.
Don't tell me you skipped weasel stew.
11:03 he says in the first book, (his first chapter) that Jaime was the only member of his family who ever loved him and treated him kindly, and that he could forgive almost anything he does because of that, also, the thing about hiring a whore as his wife was a kindness in tyrions eyes, he thinks Jaime just wanted him to be happy and it was ruined once Tywin made him confess, so he’s not mad about it (which is crazy)
you know this is a spoiler right? the tysha confession
@@ciandryl I said ‘once Tywin made him confess’ as in when he made Jaime confess that she was a whore and that it was all planned not the other confession, it might sound like a spoiler if you know the book but I’m just talking about all the info we got from tyrions story, anyway let me know when you read this so we can delete these comments cuz these really would be spoilers lol
I love hearing your thoughts on this series! I could talk about it for hours, but most people are only into the show or just don’t get obsessed with characterization or prose to the same degree as I do, lol 😅
I’ll second that Martin doesn’t get enough credit for his writing chops. He moves seamlessly back and forth between description and dialogue in way that is pretty uniquely immersive. The entire series is very enjoyable in this regard, I'm looking forward to your reviews of the rest of them!
Sansa and Catelyn also don’t get enough credit as interesting characters in their own right. Martin as always does a great job character nuance via incorporating their backstories into their internal monologues. For example, Cat often feels guilty for how she treated Jon, and Sansa still holds onto some romantic notions about knighthood and honor despite her trauma.
I really wish there were more fantasy authors writing well rounded female characters like this, where their femininity is a big part of their identity, but they also have many unique experiences and traits that are specific to them. Abercrombie is probably close, but his books just don’t have the same diversity and variety of characters involved. Sanderson does a great job with representation, but I just don’t think he has the same talent as Martin in regards to character development (few do, haha)
Ok but I agree with literally everything you've said vis a vis Abercrombie and Sanderson. They are two of my favorite authors, but Martin does seem to blend their two talents together in this book and that's what makes it so fantastic
Agreed. I know GRRM has kind of proven its not necessary for having really good female characters, but i wish we had more prominent adult fantasy authors that are women.
Im a man, and even if i try i will never really know how it is to have femininity as major part of identity.
And while for most things, we are similar enough, there are things like motherhood, things from bodily perspective and Romance that are simply somewhat different between the sexes.
I am 1000% a fan of your correct Catelyn Stark takes. Catelyn is incredibly written. Not a word of any of her chapters passes where I am not hooked because of her emotional state and her complex emotions she feels about Jon, Jaime, Robb and so many others. Her conversation she had with Jaime in her final chapter is one I remember especially well. What a phenomenal character.
I know you’re not watching the show, but I will say for the sake of it Michelle Fairley acts the SHIT out of Catelyn in the show. The quality of her acting is UNSUNG im so impressed by it.
Martin's TV background probably helps a lot, the prologue was like a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits episode in a way. Length is just right, we get just as much information we need etc.
Yeah, someone else was hypothesizing it's because he treats them like short stories!
even if the ASIOAF is never be finished, there are still books in the ASOIAF universe that added to the world-building and other great characters :)
Yes, I've heard some good short stories! And then of course the book House of the Dragon is based on (can't remember the book title lol)
@@Bookborn the book is called "Fire & Blood", the short stories are collected in "A Knight of the seven Kingdoms" and there is a lore and history book called "The World of Ice and Fire"
The series takes so many twists and turns and the characters change so much throughout. I am really interested to see who your favorites and most hated are by the (current) end
Oh I FULLY expect it to change a lot just based on how much happens every book 😂
I know it seems hard to love Jaime at this point in time, every time I reread the series I think to myself, "wait maybe I don't like this guy as much as I remember..." and then I get to book 3 and remember why his chapters are so interesting. For his chapters, and later Brienne's, I would keep in mind that idea of knighthood you noticed in Sansa's chapters, it's one of my favourite recurring themes in the series.
Another thing I love about ASOIAF that I don't see mentioned often is the disabled characters. ASOIAF has more disabled characters than any other series I have read (at least by the time of the last book) and they are all treated with just as much care and compassion and ambiguity as the other characters. Most often in fantasy when there are little people they are only halflings, hobbits, dwarves, fairies etc, small races who are specifically NOT HUMAN. Asoiaf actually has characters that are simply human beings with dwarfism, and I just love, love, love that. The way we see Tyrion struggle with the ableism of the society he lives in is so reflective of real life and refreshing to see discussed. GRRM is trying to establish that the setting of ASOIAF is not perfect, it's not to be idealized. ASOIAF is fantasy yes, but it's more interested in being a deconstruction of the genre itself.
I love Cat dearly, and her relationship with Robb is my favourite familial relationship in the series. I've read all the books and it's still my favourite. It's sad and moving and tragic and everything I love in this series.
Lastly, about Brienne, I have never read a female character, even ones written by women, that I relate to more than I relate to Brienne. I'm not joking or over exaggerating, she is my favourite female character. Ever. In my opinion, she is the moral heart of the series and her story is the most important thematically. A lot of my love for her comes from book 4, which is most people's least favourite, but it is my favourite.
I 100% agree about Shocking Deaths vs Shock-Factor Deaths. Every major death in ASOIAF has huge ripple effects after the fact. Hollywood is bad at this; someone dies for shock value and the story continues like nothing happened.
Trust me, as a person that has read the entire series, your Catelyn rant will not age poorly at all. The hate towards her is ridiculous.
As someone who is not very active in the fandom this Catelyn hate is so surprising to me.
What was the arya story? It been a while since ive last read it.
I’m a massive fan of the series since 2012. I would recommend Fire and Blood as well , especially the official audiobook narrated by Simon Vance. Been re-reading and listening to F&B for last one year
People who give "vague references" dont seem to realize that people some people can infer better than others and while a "vague reference" might not have given anything away to you, it could give someone else a clue that spoils the whole plot point. This only works in real life but of late I say "I am gonna read/see it, so not a word please!"
It’s so much fun hearing your fresh thoughts on this old and loved series! Wishing you a spoiler free ride all the way through.
I've already been spoiled on (2) things... one isn't relevant (it's a late stage show spoiler that people assume was Martin's idea but hasn't materialized in any of the published books) and another one I'm hoping I misinterpreted 😬
If you loved ACoK, you’re gonna love A Storm of Swords.
And it’s not her treatment of Jon that people dislike, it’s more the fact that her actions are in GoT are what set off the War of the Five Kings.
I know im a bit late, but regarding the House of the Undying - people love this one so much because it foreshadows basically Every. Single. Plotpoint throughout the rest of the story. Half the ASIOF theory videos you watch mention this chapter because there's just so much involved, gotta love it
Do you remember Rorge? If not you’ll definitely remember him in an upcoming book eheheheheheh
Catelyn is one of my POV's in any fictional book ever. Such a complex, thoughtful character.
Beautiful analysis. However, I don't understand how someone can skip pages and still feel like they understood the story fully! You skipped pages! It's like skipping an episode!
Admittedly those pages add to the characterisation for the mountain, but if the topic is genuinely upsetting for someone it seems perfectly fine to me to skip them. Her experience would have been worse if she did read it. And it wasn't that important anyway.
@@DeelMakreelgrown woman unable to read fictitious words printed on paper is crazy
@@invisible2427 not very empathetic are you?
You are making me want to re-read the series again!
Look I'm only on book 3 and I'm already planning my reread so just do it is what I say
I’m looking forward greatly to my eventual reread
Does anyone know what line she’s talking about at 19:10 timestamp? I’ve read the book twice but either I didn’t catch this or I forgot
That was the best wanking material :P
Jokes aside... it was the story Arya overheard about a rape. Nothing special, just a reason for Arya to make a very stupid choice to kill a smallfry instead of someone bigger.
The one thing that struck me about this series was how I loathed Jaime at the beginning and then he became one of my favorites. It was an amazing character arc from Martin.
I literally hear this from EVERYONE so I fully expect to have the same thing happen to me lol
@@Bookborn Its been 10+ years since I read these so my memory may be a little hazy. I don't think Jaime ever fundamentally changes. He's rational, pragmatic and devoted to his family, hence shove Bran off the tower. Its also not like he has an epiphany to be a better person. I think he is consistent but his circumstances and his families fragmentation result in choices and a direction that make you root for him. Fascinating.
Wait, sorry, so you haven't seen the show? Pretty impressive to go straight into ASOIAF w/o any GOT experience, in 2023.
What a series. It only get's better. Some people don't like AFFC and ADWD as much as the first three, but I personally think they're great. But please, treat the fifth book as the series finale. The wait is long and full of terrors.
So glad you are enjoying these. A Storm of Swords held the title of "Last book I threw across a room" for a long time before I finally read The Way of Kings. Love when books illicit uncontrollable emotion.
The thing I loved about Catelyn in the first book was where you see how Tyrion sees her as opposed to how she talks in her own head. It tells me how oblivious a lot of the men are that they seem to think she's acting erratically because they can't pick up on the subtleties of her words and facial expressions and don't pay enough attention to her
Holy shit!! Asoiaf managed to convert you.
And it didn't even have to rely on book 3 to do so.
Edit: do not read the comments until you finish book 3. The next book goes in a direction that you probably won't expect. Best to go in blind.
Edit 2: tHotU is absolutely insane on a reread. The way it connects to the overall asoiaf lore is amazing.
So...I'm worried I accidentally read a spoiler on Reddit. It wasn't in full context, but I'm trying to not think about it so that my brain can maybe forget it 😭But other than that I'm guessing there will still be a lot of twists and turns...
@@Bookborn Listen, you're talking to someone who was a dumb teen when GoT S1 came out and, in order to look cool to one of my asoiaf friends, tried to talk about S1 as if I'd seen it. And he spoiled Ned's death for me.
Yeah, that happened.
Then later on, I had just finished book 2 and was a little confused about the whereabouts of a character and so I went to the Ice & Fire wiki in order to get some context. I *really* tried to be careful this time and yet..... there it was. "DIED IN (Year) AT (Place)". And this was another major character, mind you.
But trust me. These books are so dense and rich that knowing these spoilers didn't ruin anything for me. The *way* stuff happens is far more interesting than the stuff itself. GRRM is a master of setup and he's already set up almost every event that's going to happen in book 3. You just didn't pick up on it because it seems like a random detail.
Just keep reading and enjoy the ride. Be careful about spoilers but don't stress out over it. This story is far too enjoyable to be ruined by a mere spoiler or two.
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But yeah, reddit is 100x worse than your comment section. Avoid it until you've read book 3.
@@Bookborn there's two moments in the series that people talk about endlessly and you managed to completely misinterpret the first one, so...
I’m right there with you. Reading the series for the first time and halfway through Storm of Swords. I can’t remember, have you not seen the show? I was worried how I viewed the characters would be tainted by the characterizations from the series but I’m finding I have my own unique versions of them in my head reading the books.
No, I have never watched the show! And I never plan to lmao
I feel like there is no other author and series that Feels more real than asoiaf...and it has magic haha. Every single character feels like...if I were them, I would think say and do what they would think, say, and do what they do. It's so immersive, and it just keeps growing, the more you know. The depth of secret, mysterious world building and symbolism is beyond compare. Then, when you read the blood and fire history, it Really gives you this sense that this is just a slice in the history of a real world. Like at any point in the history of westeros you could just pick up and write a seven book masterpiece. Incredible
I honestly don't know what curse is on Kat that makes so many readers dislike her, as if she were the only flawed character. She's mean to Jon? Yes! But only in her head! Before that goodbye scene between Jon and Bran, she has never openly mistreated him or even talked to him. And she has every right to dislike Jon, she knows how dangerous a bastard son is to her own sons.
And come on, Jon starts out as a rich spoiled brat who's mean and very aggressive towards people he considers "beneath him", things are just given to him, he barely has to try anything. He's just as naive and deluded about how the world works as Sansa is and people hate this in Sansa, but kinda forget that Jon is just like her and worship him.
And there is Dany, I love her, everyone loves her, but readers also kinda forget that she's very racist sometimes, her whole arc in Essos has been full of racist thoughts and orientalism, partly because she's supposed to be like that, she's not perfect and we can still like her and because we have a white writer, no matter how great he is, but he's writing about a non-white culture that he can't possible fully understand.
And, like you said, Jaime pushed a kid from a very high window and people still like him.
I will always defend Kat. She's not my favorite character, but her chapters are my favorite. They're so intelligent, beautiful, poetic and full of emotions and details. They're perfect.
Catelyn’s scene in the rural sept before meeting with Renly is some of the most beautiful prose in all of the novels imo. one of my favorite scenes from all five books.
I'm often baffled by the hate Catelyn and Sansa get from the Fandom. They are not perfect. Yes Catelyn is mean to Jon. Yes Sansa reported to Cersei... But you understand where this is coming from (and Sansa is a child!!). Nonetheless, they get more hate than any other character because we don't forgive their mistakes even though some of the other beloved characters do so much worse... And I think part of it comes from internalized sexist reflexes. They both are the most feminine figures in the books. And we don't forgive women for not being perfect. For not behaving like men (Arya is a tomboy and people love her for that, she's a girl who refuses to be girly). A whole study could be done on this topic!
Catelyn is a great character because she makes me feel sympathy but also so upset at her at the same time LOL. I always thought that the angst about her stems from her kicking off the events of GoT. Her decision to capture Tyrion, which leads to Ned being injured and spur the Lannister's to watch him more closely. Tyrion's capture was based on poor logic, and little proof and she easily understood that she risked war and death for her husband and children (A great character moment, but still...). Sansa also a great character but starts her character arc starts off where all her decisions are based on how things affect her and her (somewhat naive) dream which IMHO can be really off putting when coupled with her initial classism. That aside I think the main reason she gets so much hate has to do with her unintended betrayal of her father (again a great character moment but still lead to Ned's death).
Capturing Tyrion was absolutely an emotional reaction rather than a logical one but idk I just understand it SO MUCH which is why I think I have so much sympathy, even though it was obviously a terrible decision.
@@Bookborn I don't disagree with you at all, the decision is perfectly in-line with her character and absolutely necessary for the story. it is part of the tapestry that is integral to the story and I would never want to change it. I can't even say that I wouldn't make the same decision, I just understand why there is such a degree of Catelyn angst. in fact I think just shows how awesome of a character she is, that she elicits such strong emotion for actions that no one argues is out of character
To expand, not only does it serve the character, but the scene also works on so many other levels. It reinforces that these are complex flawed characters (as no one makes perfect decisions, not even Tyrion and other intelligent characters that you will encounter soon) and there are believable, unintended, and undesired consequences to many of the decisions in the series. I also think this scene establishes the trend of ASOIAF nobles making emotional decisions from a place of relative safety or immediate advantage and how others often bear the costs of those choices (especially with reader 20/20 hindsight).
I agree that it's an emotional decision and a bad one in hindsight but the funny thing is Ned would have done the exact same thing. So would Rob or Jon. All the Starks have this trait of responding emotionally to justice even if it's not in their better interest to do so. Ned is not acting cautious after Tyrion's capture, he's gearing up to take the fight to the Lannisters. Cat really does believe Tyrion tried to kill Bran. And to be fair to her she had no idea what Lysa had become.
I actually love Cat. I was surprised when I found out others hated her. I think her problems are John, while not excusable, are understandable even if I don’t agree with them. She cares deeply for her family and I think for her John represents a threat to the family
I read the series when I was seventeen in 2013. I never liked the show after season 3 or 4, so its poor ending didn't affect me. For a long time, I thought I wouldn't read the series again until the next book came, but watching your review on GOT made me change my mind. I had forgotten how much I liked reading these books. It is also interesting to come back and read them as a more mature/experienced reader than I was as a teenager. I feel like I missed a lot of things on my first read, so it's almost like I'm reading it again for the first time.
Looking forward to your review of Storm of Swords! It was my favorite book on my first read-through of the series.
OOH it's SO fun to be able to read a book as an adult that you read as a teen. I did that with Wheel of Time - I wasn't a teen when I read them but was super early 20s, and when I reread in my 30s I was shocked at how my perception of characters had changed based on my life experience. I feel like that would be doubled with a book like ASOIAF!
I just completed the second book (after watching and rewatching the shows a few years ago) and personally, my favorite POVs have to be Jon, Daenrys, Bran and Davos.
The show did a good job of showing the political side of game of thrones but the magic!! The magic of the universe was missing and after reading I found out of just how much we robbed of.
Great time to start reading! The next book's just around the corner
Fuckin Dave Chapelle ova here!! 😂
I audibly laughed at this, well done 👏
😂😂 well done, well done 👌
lmao ok but my friend did joke that like she'd be furious if George somehow released it right as I finished and I didn't have to wait at all ☠
@@Bookborn2025 release is very likely
I also mistakenly call this book Clash of Clans, but that's because I currently play that game! I'm in a semi active clan with some old friends, so I don't think it's a stupid game 😂
look I played for a long time so I appreciate that you still have an active clan lol!
Hahaha the catelyn defence is amazing. Starting the next book right after is real degen energy and I love it
The enthusiasm here is awesome to see, 32 minutes and it feels like you could have gone longer
* Glad to hear the Catelyn and Sansa love. Those are two POV characters who are so much better than a lot of people give them credit for.
* Can understand that Dany's House of the Undying stuff is probably better on a re-read. I distinctly remember reading that the first time and just sort of shrugging and guessing it'd make sense later. Also, I totally get the issues with Dany being removed from the story too much. Dany is always detached to some extent but Book 2 she feels especially so.
* Totally respect you skipping that one section. It's a pretty grim story that serves the purpose of being why someone's name is on Arya's list but, yes, is pretty horrific even if it's someone "telling not showing" as it were.
* I think GRRM's treatment of women is interesting because - as you said - female readers will always defend his female characters as being really well written. It's not the usual instance of horny old author doesn't understand women at all. And he's far from the worst offender I've ever read but it does still come up from time to time. I've been meaning to do a re-read and see if the objectification are more commonly in POVs that are attracted to women, in which case it might be an interesting writing choice. If not, then he's just a good writer who writes good female characters but still falls victim to the naughty thoughts sometimes.
* I think you're approaching these books with the right mindset and all the people scoffing at the idea you'll be disappointed there may never be an ending will be proven wrong. You went in KNOWING you'd likely not get an ending so will be more mentally prepared for it at the end. I was disappointed too at first but over the years, after a re-read, I've become more an "I enjoyed the journey even if we never got to the destination" kind of mindset which really feels like a healthier way to view the series overall. Even if we eventually get Winds, we may still never get Dream, so let's just enjoy what we got.
Awesome that book 2 managed to rope you in like this, book 3 is widely considered to be the best one with some of my personal favorite scenes so it only goes up from here.
Also THANK YOU for defending Cat, you and Glidus are the only youtubers I’ve watched who don’t just blindly hate her.
If you are reading A Storm of Swords, leave the internet now!!!! until you are done with that book....don't look back just leave. You will spend so much time in silence after you finish some crucial chapters, have fun.
One good point previously mentioned was that if Sansa and Arya switched their experiences growing up, that is, each going through what the other went though, neither one of them would have survived
Omg YES THANK YOU FOR THIS COMMENT
Catelyn remains one of my favs. I knew immediately when you mentioned a hated character it was going to be her.
Cat also has to worry about Jon as a threat to her children as heirs. There’s a long history of inter family feuds in this world and the medieval world. Doesn’t excuse her treatment of him, but it makes sense.
I have to say that one of the most brilliant and not discussed enough parts of this series for me has always been writing an epic story about a young heroic king from the perspective of his mother. *chefs kiss*
Still, Arya with three whispers can end this war: Tywin Lannister, Joffrey "Baratheon" and Cersei Lannister. It's piss me of xD
Absolutely can not wait to hear your reaction to A Storm of Swords, one of my favorites of all time
It seems to be literally everyone's favorite so I'm sooo excited.
Lol I was wondering what you'd think about that Arya scene. How can you skip it?! it's so important to the Clegane brothers relationship, about why Sandor hates knights and the establishment and why the Mountain, and therefore Tywin are such an utter pieces of shit.
I think the best way I've seen someone summaries how incredibly and masterfully effective George's prologues are in ASOIAF across the board - character writing, worldbuilding, atmosphere, dialogue etc. etc. - was Will from the "Unresolved Textual Tension" podcast describing Martin as being first and foremost a phenomenal short story writer. I think that's a great way of approaching the prologue chapters (as self-contained short stories) to be able to analyze and see the intricate techniques particular to that genre of witting being deftly utilized to pack a punch with so little page time.
As for Catelyn (and Sansa) literally GO 👏 OFF 👏 QUEEN 👏 I have A LOT to say about fandom where these two in particular are concerned but I won't say more here because I don't want to start a fight in your comment section but also some of it might be spoiler-y BUT I want you to know I'm with you on every word you've said here!!!
wow I never even thought of it like that but YES!! Both prologues have been a SHORT STORY and have a full arc which is probably why they work so well.
AND SANSA AND CATELYN FOREVER THANK YOU
Absolutely love the Catelyn defense. She's the Demeter of ASOIAF!
I LOVE that you love Catelyn and Sansa and Davos. They do not get enough love for how well they’re written.
I believe that you're not supposed to like the way Martin writes about women's bodies.
The negative focus on men's views of women is part of the subject of the story.
Also, it is a look at how women used use sex and their sensuality to gain power, manipulating men.
Glad you are enjoying the series. Its great to see your enthusiasm. It’s been a good while since I read the original books but I’ve just started A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms which is also set in Westeros. Loving it so far.
Thick as castle wall
Does anyone know what story she’s talking about she skipped in the Arya chapter? Been a while since I’ve read acokings and can’t remember anything remotely similar…
I had always been hesitant to read ASOIAF because of the show and earlier this year I began reading the series and a few weeks later you released your first video about aGoT and now right after I read aCoK you release a video about it. I love that you are going on the exact same journey. It really is an amazing series and so far I can understand all the hype.
haha YES!!! Did you start SoS too?
The first 4 seasons are some of the best television ever to be filmed.
Just like the books, even if it ended in tragedy, it is TOTALLY worth it to see this fantastic world realized in amazing fashion. Just treat season 5 and after as bad fanfic.
I dont think cersei actually loves her children (maybe myrcella to some extend), but joffrey and tommen she views mainly as extensions of herself and as a vehical to her own power. But this interpretation is mainly book 4 based
First of all welcome to the community of ASOIAF! Speaking on the Catelyn hot topic, I am someone who uploads ASOIAF content regularly, and can say she is one of the hardest povs for me to place. Personally I don't like Catelyn as a character, but she is by far one of the best povs of the story. Like u mentioned she has a lot of the most interesting and important chapters. Also, she is just a very human character without getting into spoilers, she is the one character that seems too real because of her struggles. Excited to see your reaction to Storm it is by far regarded as the best book, but personally mine is Clash because I am a team Stannis guy
Follow up comment I don't like Cat, but even when ranking the povs of all the books for me she is easily in the top 5.
14:55 “I haven’t read books three, four, or five” man that stung to hear after your (correct) ardent defending of Catelyn lol (made sure you already reviewed Storm of Swords before commenting)
I cant get enough of this. Love this long form review. This series deserves and requires it. Cat is an amazing character and imo is the best "mother" in all of fantasy. Character wise. I love her. Annnnd I have to add I am so envious of you getting to experience all of this fresh. Well as fresh as someone can lol
Theon is my favourite character
Just wait. A long wait, but wait
Know that the Shows follow a different story path than the books! There is some things that the show will spoil for you, but Overall, they are 2 separate entities. Enjoy the journey! Its my favorite book series ever and there is so much there even without it being done.
edit: DEFEND CATELYN!!!!
I never plan on watching the show so luckily that won't be a thing for me!
@@Bookborn Honestly, thats for the best! The first 4 seasons of the show are very good and close to the books, but s5 on onwards its drastically different. Books>>>>>>>Show
@@Bookborn you should consider watching the show! It improves upon several of the characters with the changes it makes. Even George R.R. Martin prefers the show versions of certain characters. My favorite monologue in the entire series is also exclusive to the show ("chaos is a ladder"). There's a reason why it was such a hit.
I am absolutely certain that the show is too graphic for me, and I would not enjoy that aspect. @@SidV101
@@Bookborn fair enough, the show goes well beyond the books there. I'm not sure how well a fan edit to censor/blur the gore and nudity would work. In addition to its infamous "sexposition" (combining exposition and sex scenes), the show has a bad habit of turning consenual encounters into SA and adding entirely new instances of SA
Catelyn is hated for other reasons too. She's not a great diplomat (and isn't very aware of it) and can be blamed for starting the war by illegally (and unjustly) imprisoning Tyrion
I'm so glad you loved the book. I was also late to the IP (I read the books 2015-2017 and didn't watch the show until 2020), but I actively avoided spoilers for YEARS because I wanted the non-spoiler experience. It wasn't easy, but it was worth it. I loved the books and not being spoiled made it much better. I spent LOTS of time thinking about the characters and their motivations as I read the books and actively looked for youtube videos that discussed plot points I already read about (and not spoil what was still ahead of me). It was honestly hard work to walk on that tightrope, but I enjoyed the books so much that they drove me to that level of fandom. I'm excited for your to read the rest of the series because I think your fandom will only grow from here.
I'm so scared to google anything/ watch anything so I'm trying to read all five and then go back and binge all the content to catch up 😂
@@Bookborn I completely understand and I wish you well on your journey through A Song of Ice and Fire. When done reading (and if still hungry for consuming more from ASoIaF), I recommend checking out videos from creators: In Deep Geek, Alt Shift X, whycreate, and Preston Jacobs.
I love your channel and I hope you can provide some more reading recommendations for kids!
I LOVE Theon, is he kinda pathetic? Yes. Easily manipulated? yes. I love him