Amy and Amber from Sword and the Pen Reflections Discuss The Wheel of Time
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2023
- In this poorly recorded and edited video (sorry), Amy interviews Amber from The Sword and the Pen about the Wheel of Time TV show adaptation in advance of the Season 2 finale. In addition to seasons 1 and 2 of The Wheel of Time TV show we also discuss other fantasy book to screen adaptations, the book series by Robert Jordan, and our predictions for the season 2 finale.
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Haven't even watched yet, but two of my favorite Wheel of Time reviewers teaming up together? I'm super excited!
Oh my, two of the most insightful, well spoken and entertaining women discussing a topic I've been a fan of for almost 30 years. What a treat, looking forward to these two hours!
In my opinion this show is 5% faithful adaption, 95% fan fiction.
95% BAD fan fiction.
@@philnorfleet1371 I think you're both being very generous
While you are speaking about the flaw of poor setting for the show, I'm reminded that when I first watched The Fellowship of the Ring movie, I immediately knew exactly where each scene was, because Tolkien was a master of landscape description, and Peter Jackson paid attention. The Lone Lands, Weathertop, The Misty Mountains, Goblintown, the Imladris Pass, Rivendell, The Lorien Wood, the Caradhras Pass, all are faithfully represented on screen, and it was wonderful.
RJ did a great job of describing his landscapes, clothing styles, building styles. The show is just ignoring the source material as hard as they can
A lot of people have been saying that show-Rand is trying to "avoid" Aes Sedai, but I don't know where they get that from. I've not seen a single scene where Rand actively tries to avoid or hides from anyone, let alone Aes Sedai.
He says he doesn't want to be controlled, but does not have any history of being controlled to back it up. His one and only act of rebellion is in season 1 ep 2 when he rightfully questions Moiraine's objectives and goals, and that is shut down so fast it's not even funny.
In book 1, the kids don't even know _why_ they have the DO's interest, until the very end when Moiraine dramatically reveals it in the very last sentence: "the Dragon is reborn"!
Rand tells Siuan that he's "tired of being a spoke in the wheel", but at that point he's done literally NOTHING yet, has bore NO burden, has been put under NO pressure except to follow someone's lead. What exactly is he tired of?
This is my problem with the show. They keep TELLING us things instead of building them up.
I want to believe that they're harried by the lack of episode, but what they actually DO with the time they have (Steppin, Alanna, Lan vs Moiraine, Lan's day out camping, etc) makes no sense either so...
Ladies, to defend The Eye of the World: this is the best book to re-read. The amount of material you will pick up on-the foreshadowing-is transcendental. The more one re-reads the series the higher Book 1 ranks in one’s estimation.
I’m rereading it right now and I fully agree.
yeah EOTW is one of the weakest on first read and one of my favorites on rereads
Book 1 was published at a time when all fantasy was still compared to Lord of the Rings and in order to get published you had to sell it as Lord of the Rings but with this twist. It meant that Jordan had to follow a formula. Once book one was successful he was free to do his own thing. You are right that he did bury a lot of Easter eggs in there that later came to fruition.
Hurray! This looks great! I'm not seeing/hearing the issues with sound. But either way, we both sound like smart cookies. 😅
Cheers!
You made the same comment I did about the very first line of the intro to the show giving a sour impression. That intro narration that goes something like, "The Dragon has been reborn, we don't know if it is a boy or a girl." Uhh, no, clearly you don't understand the world building if you don't see how a female Dragon breaks the setting's conflict when it's only male channelers people fear going mad.
As far as overcoming a tragic backstory, that's Lan's arc. The show seems to think that tragic backstories give you power or moral superiority, but Lan's has led him to believe that he is trapped and has no choices, that he is just a weapon to be used by others for greater purposes, and his arc is learning to carve out some agency, and that he has the ability to serve the greater good, not just by doing what he is told, but by standing up for what is right and helping others, regardless of what seems to be their fates.
I just started watching Amber so really enjoyed your conversation. I watched this video last night and saw some reviews of EP8 this morning. I know you have not done the post mortem for EP8 but boy you were so right in your predictions - almost to a T. This is why I love your breakdowns!
Ultimately, it comes down to understanding Rafe’s objective. I don’t think he wants or likes the books outcome. He wants to tell his own story, but he doesn’t have the talent to achieve it.
I'm not entirely sure if it's Rafe that this objective is coming from; or if it's from Amazon studios -- higher up in the food chain.
I believe Rafe has said he finds much of the themes of Jordan's writing in WOT "outdated", as it does not match current day ideological thinking.
@@gilian2587 there's a reason amazon hired rafe
Heavily disagree. Were barely into the story. Books 1-3 are pretty meh. The good parts can finally start. Also it’s literally impossible to adapt this on screen without telling it differently. If you don’t think that’s true you haven’t thought about this enough.
@@scambammer6102 Possibly a good point.
Wow -- great team-up! Two of my favorite content creators discussing WOT!
Two serious literature craftswomen talking craft. This is outstanding. All of the side banter surrounding youtube video recording logistics is also very interesting.
The best series to show adaptation I can think of is The Expanse. The books are great but the show stands on its own. The changes made are quite faithful to the plot and characters.
I havent read or watched this one but good to know!
THE EXPANSE is an amazing show, although I was a little disappointed by the last season - simply because, perhaps, I'd hoped for an even bigger send-off. And the first season, although impressive, struck me as being somewhat off-kilter. But what followed made me forget all about that. And as so many people have remarked, what raises this series above other science-fiction ones is its scientific accuracy. This isn't STAR TREK or STAR WARS with their warp drives, or INTERSTELLAR with its nonsense about time dilation (time dilation exists, of course, but not in the way the overrated Christopher Nolan would have you believe). And, as the icing on the cake, there's tons of realistic feminism and diversity without a hint of shoehorned agenda or woke.
Arcane, The Expanse, One Piece. Vampire Diaries, Twilight. Included last two as they were done more faithfully then the Wheel of Time which clearly imho Rafe hates.
Even the newer "All Creatures Great and Small" series which is more inspired than adapted, does a good job of creating a story and character growth that makes sense within the show's story.
I subscribe to both of your channels and think you guys have done a great job taking this series to task. As a fan of these books since The Eye of the World came out, I hate this show with a passion (I still have to watch it, though, because I’m weird). Keep up the good work!
That’s funny. I am the same way. I feel like Rafe did Robert Jordan a big disservice by using the wheel of time as a vehicle for his own ideologies. To the point where he will create new relationships and story lines and have that take up valuable screen time. However I still watch the episodes, hoping to catch glimpse of the story we all love in a visual format.
We just can't help it, can we😅
dont hate watch. you're just contributing to its success
This was fantastic! Thank you both so much, I couldn’t agree more with everything x
This convo was awesome, thanks y'all!
Also, hearing the speculation on ep8 has me laughing in hindsight. Can't wait for the reviews
It's great to see Amy and Amber working together. I hereby christen you "The A-Team".
Hell Yeah!😃I love this!
Thing in the books is that each chapter POV is written from the focus characters actual pov, taking into account all their preconceptions and prejudices to flavor their narrative.
Thank you so much for doing this review! I think you both did a great job and really enjoyed listening to both of you discussing the show and books together!
RJ already wrote about moraines growth and development in New Spring. They could've weaved (lol) elements of her journey in from that instead of forcing a new narrative for her as a protagonist.
P.s. you two are fun to watch together! Both intelligent and finding similarities not differences, 👍
Would love to see you two discuss the rest of the books! Love seeing anyone be rightly critical of the media they consume!
The books have flaws as well and I would be open to that
Amber is so amazing.
Great video. Two of my favorite commentators on the WoT.
I love the line at around @45:08 which points out how another show worked well because "the writers were competent...".
Loved this video podcast, it was a great discussion. Thank both of you for doing this! I hope you guys do a follow up for the finale. Plus your individual reviews.
making significant changes to the characters, setting and plot inevitably means the story isn't the same. The more changes made the more it diverges.
Rafe Judkins actually WAS a contestant on Survivor! Sara Nakamura actually IS a huge diehard fan of the books, but she is one voice in a room of writers who also consults on costuming, architecture, special effects, and numerous other areas of focus. I was upset we didn't get the animated shorts from the first six episodes of Season 1 for the last 2 episodes of the season or ANY of Season 2.
Sara absolutely knows what she's talking about. She also had no decision making power on the show with respect to the plot. She is innocent of any plot sins that have been committed by the show, in my opinion.
I don't blame Sara
Well said.
Producers can hire whomever they wish. It doesn't mean that person will have much of an impact.
Seems more of a marketing gimmick, if you're going to hire somebody and ignore them (or the more likely scenario, consult them to ask whether some fan service throwaway moment actually happens in the book, or was just some crappy writers feverdream :P)
I would suggest that she's not entirely blameless though.
For one, she's another of the "it's just another turning bro" crowd.
And if I hear any more claims that all critics are gatekeepers or trolls (a statement she has made about the fandom)... I say we riot :P
I'd be intrigued to know the battles she's WON though.
The wiki just has a joke that Rafe wanted Perrin to talk to a bear. Which is, I think, clearly a joke.
I suspect that she's not won any. That she simply provides appropriate lore friendly window dressing to all of the changes, takes her cheque and tells herself "it's just another turning"
I can't hate anyone for taking a dream job and making the best of it.
But it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when somebody does that but APPEARS to hold other fans in contempt for wanting something more.
The another turning of the wheel thing is an excuse or cope. You could make rand Batman and the white tower the justice league and say it’s just another turning of the wheel. It just depends on what changes people will accept. I don’t blame Sara. On one level, if she’s a huge fan, she should push back on stuff. On another, she’s like Sanderson, she knows these people personally so she’s not going to come out and say it’s shit. Personally I think they were cruel to her. They said they’d intentionally give her fake stories to send her on a wild goose chase and report on lore implications only to say nevermind. They thought it was funny but I thought it was cruel.
Another aspect of people defending the show is politics. Daniel Greene is a big example of this. They make it political and immediately divide fans into two groups. Rafe has said as much by calling Jordan’s work outdated and wanting a feminist show to even replying to critics by threatening to change characters gay. Then tons of fans do this by calling people who dislike the show bigots. The other side uses woke. Personally I think studios do this intentionally to cause conflict thinking the drama will bring attention. Sort of “there’s no such thing as bad publicity”. Then there’s tons of people who identify with these sides so their opinion becomes more about their side than the truth. I think Daniel green falls into this. I don’t think he likes the show but he won’t out right say it because it would go against his side. people will dislike the show but praise it because it’s their side. This is sad but true. That’s why I like these two channels and a few others. They leave the politics out and address the material as it is. Even though many of my opinions on the show and in life probably put me in the right wing camp, I don’t think that’s the best way to approach criticism. Obviously people have values and they will color their opinion but when you say it’s woke or you don’t like it because you’re alt right, you’re adding unnecessary baggage.
@@amys0482I do. She has tweeted that she was one of the main go toes for a lot of the changes. She would give changes to Rafe to change about the story to fit his Feminazi agenda.
From what I can figure for the timeline of season one to the start of season two, this is it: It takes them about two days to go from Emonds Field to Shadar Logoth. Then, about two days from there to Rand/Mat at the farm and Perrin/Egwene with the Tuatha'an. It then skips a month to everyone arriving at Tar Valon. They spend about a day and night in Tar Valon, then head into the ways. They say it'll take two days to reach Fal Dara, or the Eye, not sure, but then it only takes a day because they're chased out just as they wanted to bed down. They then spend a full day in Fal Dara, and it seems it takes another full day for Rand and Moiraine to reach the Eye. The Trollocs breaking through Tarwin's Gap the night of the second day in Fal Dara. Total: A month and 8 days. Approximately.
Season two, Mat mentions being in the Tower for 6 months since the party split. The girls have been in the Tower for 5 months. The month can easily be explained away as recuperation time in Fal Dara, plus the slower travel without the Ways to return to Tar Valon. This actually kind of lines up nicely. However, this puts us at approximately 7 months and 8 days. But then they ruin the timeline by stating it's Beltine again, meaning a full year has passed. So now there's almost 3 months unexplained. Silly show!
Yes! I did this math, too, and came to the same conclusion. So.... a year in WoT is equal to 7 to 8 months. Certainly no more than 9. Okay. Sure.
But to be fair, the timeline in the books make even less sense. Like, Egwene is 2-3 months a novice in the Tower, then only a few days back there as Accepted before departing again and then, in her later arc, she suddenly seems like an expert on Tower culture and knows all this details, some from her mentor, but a lot explicitly stated as from her time there.
She is also so mature in handling all the people, that I always thought 5-7 years had passed, but when I looked it up it was 2(!) through the whole books series and one of them over at the end of the Great Hunt.
Great collaboration!
Glad to see you two doing this. I've been getting into Amber stuff recently myself.
Great to see y'all collab!
Keep up the great work
Great conversation, I really enjoyed it. I thought you both did a great job articulating my own feelings on the show better than I do myself.
Super awesome collab! Can't wait to see your EP8 reaction...oh boy!
Fantastic, I watch both your reviews!
Loved this discussion-- you articulated a lot of my thoughts/concerns re the weaknesses of the story telling in this show: focusing on the wrong things when you only have a few episodes to adapt a relatively lengthy novel; changing who the main character is; trying too hard to make it more like Game of Thrones; changing the magic system to the extent that now it's hard to know what the rules are AND why it's a big (scary) deal in this world that the person needed to save the world is a man who uses the magic; and failing to define/clarify any of the arcs for the characters, in part by making the characters from Emond's Field too mature to start with. I really think, if they want to lean into Moiraine as the main character & discuss Tar Valon/Aes Sedai politics and how that plays out, adapting and expanding New Spring -- maybe starting with Moiraine and Siuan coming to the tower -- would absolutely have been a better choice. I could have gotten behind that show, not this weird, confusing miss-telling of Wheel of Time.
Thoroughly engaging conversation. I didnt notice anything wrong with editing or sound because the content was great
Awesome! I've enjoyed both your critques!
I enjoyed this! S&P got a new sub.
Having now watched the video I have to say that I wasn't disappointed. And the prospect of you doing this again on this topic or another is enticing!
Come to think of it, there is precedent of people doing the critics thing and then coming together on a (semi-?) regular basis for a podcast that seems to be going pretty well (Critical Drinker and that circle).
And I know that Bookborn did a crossover for a Wheel of Time reaction already and is also well read - as are others. I would definitely try to catch that whenever I could.
I always assumed the things Rand seemed to have figured out on his own was his past life leaking through. And the Wisdom only started doing new things after learning some basics from the yellows.
Glad to see the book/wine shelf back in the video!
Very enjoyable discussion, not least for being genuinely technically informative and thoughtful in its reflections.
I look forward to seeing a conclusive assessment from you both together (if indeed that is what you plan to do) once you’ve seen and processed the Season 2 Finale.
Also looking forward to seeing you express your views on your individual Channels ASAP.
I mean, if sycophants can have echo chambers where the people who make the WoT TV Show get told the sun shines out their tushies, there is no reason discerning viewers can’t have somewhere to congregate to make lucid assessment and share regret over such a golden opportunity lost.
Thank You for your efforts and for being the logical balm to soothe this sad fan’s raging disappointment. Time flew listening to you both.
Until next time!
I came here right after watching the season 2 finale. This was a fun 2 hour discussion!
Can’t wait to see what y’all say about the finale. I have thoughts
digesting atm
So many thoughts, both good and bad tbh
So many thoughts. The closer you look at it the more falls apart. Best not to pick apart some of the logic.
It is true, there are huge plotholes, but in comparision to the finale in the last season, it is really entertaining, enjoyable television with great emotional moments and some satisfying payoffs for some setups. The finale of season 1 was just a parade of wtfs.
Really enjoyed this, hopefully more chats in the future 👍
I haven't watched the finale yet and maybe I should before I post this, but in addition to everything you mentioned about problems with the final battle, show Rand has witnessed that a sword (even his heron marked one if that's somehow special) cannot kill a Forsaken because Moiraine said so and stabbed Lanfear through with it. A huge part of his sacrifice at the end of the book is that he thinks he's dying to be able to kill the Dark One, which makes sheathing the sword worth it. Even acknowledging that he knows Ishamael isn't the Dark One at this point, he should know he can't kill him.
Ooo yay i love both of your channels
1:22:15 just a small thing I'd like to point out; as i understood it, Rand figures things out on his own instinctively not because he's so powerful, but because he's LTT reborn; LTT's past life informs a lot of the weaves and abilities he's able to do instinctively. And this is made clearer later, but i don't want to give any spoilers lol. And Nynaeve and Egwene and Elayne are able to figure things out too not because of their power, but because of Talents; Healing with Nynaeve, Dreaming with Egwene, etc. So I don't really think RJ falls into the trope of "because power levels" deux ex machina
I mean for that inconsistency (no consistent characters or plot) I think the answer is really straightforward --- we're getting wheel of time by way of survivor...
Great watch, thanks
Good stuff! You've earned a subscription with a fun conversation that is honest(a bit generous to the extreme faults of the show IMO, but fair for the standards you set!) while also flowing well.
Video issues aren't a big issue unless you're trying to play this on a mega wall-TV, and even then... one wonders at the reasoning for needing to watch two ladies in 4k discuss books for two hours 😅😂
Great collab. Episode 7 of season 2 I consider the "best" episode in the show up to this point, and it is because they made the least number of errors and crappy writing. Oh there is plenty wrong with it, but most of the continuity is ok, most of the dialog and interactions make sense. I think the best description of the show is that it is disappointing. You know it is disappointing because the fans that shill for the show, when they get the smallest actual following of the book, they absolutely gush about it, and those parts are universally acknowledged as the best parts of the show.
Yeah, they're like children at Easter, shouting with glee whenever they find another egg, nevermind the muck they have to trod through in the process.
This is my conclusion, as well. And yes, the flow of dialogue is better.... but the logical inconsistencies in the magic and world and character arcs are still there. The writing talent seems to have gotten a line editor and proofreader... but they still seem to have skipped that step where a developmental editor says "Hey! Wait a minute! What are the rules about how the Damane neck and cuff device thingy work? I thought you can't hurt your suldan without feeling it twice as intense. Then Egwene went and ..... yeah....."
Not to mention all the endless excuses that they make... which are just confessions that the show NEEDS excuses.
My personal favorite is, "unreliable narrator"
In the case of the show, this translates to "yeah, the writers screwed up!"
Really great conversation by two intelligent people, whose videos I am enjoying. I'm not sure this show deserves this much in depth analysis, but I like it anyway.
The books do, though.
Brilliant girls, just brilliant. I enjoyed that SO much, a massive thank you. Your reviews are about the only good thing that has come from this "adaptation".
The deletion of the portal stones took away a key plot device for later too
Great Pod!!
I genuinely do not understand how anybody thinks the show is good. I really really wanted to like this show and was a big apologist for the entirety of Season 1 up until the finale broke me. While, yes, it has some redeeming qualities, the sad fact remains that the negatives outweigh the positives. That's why I appreciate your reviews because you actually dissect what's happening in the show and pointing out the flaws in logic and writing rather than just glossing over the issues or making justifications for its shortcomings by saying something like it's "just another turning of the wheel." I always point out that the people defending the WoT show do not make the same excuses for things like The Witcher, Shannara Chronicles, or the Hobbit despite them having similar issues.
Small changes are necessary for any adaption - true all they needed to do was keep true to the characters, you could have them in different places with different encounters but we'd know how those characters would react or what their motivations are that could be fun to see. But at least in personal opinion they missed the mark with every single character (with the possible exception of elayne but not seen enough of her to say for sure).
Couldn't bring myself to watch more than the first 3 episodes of season 2 with a non reader friend who i've harassed with WoT info for years just found it too painful. Gonna just watch S&P's reviews instead as i feel our opinions align. But nice to see this colab, Amy's earned a new sub, i could talk about WoT (even vicariously) all day long.
Having Elayne brew up some pruno isn't the brightest sign, imo
@@dudeguy8686 I know what you mean but I could sort of justify that in my mind (with a bit of mental gymnastics) as her character often pushed the boundaries of what was expected of her like inviting rand into the palace upon first meeting him, learning to curse, studying angreal despite the danger etc I'm trying not to let my general dismal view of the show colour everything before I judge it on its own merit but its so damn hard. Long story short still think this was peak casting after moraine its just that no matter how good an actor is they can only carry badly written characters so far
@@PoppaKrunch Aye, that's a good interpretation of Elayne's character, and how it might allow for that action, yet it just seems like such a weird choice of an action to display that. We do get a couple of tipsy Elayne scenes throughout the books, but to use alcohol as a foundational introduction piece to her character?
Idk, guess it's just another effect of "aging up" everybody.
Also, very strong agree to your last point: the casting is probably the best thing about this show (yet still with some glaring exceptions). Too bad they're all stuck with this script..
Regarding world building, in HBO GOT every place and every people look and feel different. It's also in the WOT books.
Wow two of my favorite TH-cam WoT ladies teaming up! 🍿
I'd really like to hear Amber's thoughts on The Great Hunt and she thought of TEotW as I did on my first read through. First read through, other than the prolog, just wasn't that special to me. It was really the flicker chapter where I got hooked.
Having read the series, The Eye of the World means a lot, even after reading it probably a dozen times, I always seem to find something new.
As for Season 2, I haven't watch any yet. Not sure if I will or not. It just seems that if the showrunner and writers actually care about the story, they have no idea how to present a cohesive story that works towards a goal (I have seen a couple reviews by Amy and a couple others) which is the exact opposite of what Robert Jordan did planning a story that took 20 years and another writer to finish.
I quit halfway through season 2. Trust me, you're not missing much, especially if you want to see a faithful adaptation of the books. Granted, aesthetically this season is better than last season, but there are still a lot of problems with characterization, character motivation, and logic.
They killed characters in season 1... that are up and walking around, no explanation, at the beginning of season 2.
Through episode 7, none of the boys accomplish much of anything at all...
The boys actually DO manage to accomplish something in S2E8... not all of it good.
Spoilers for E8...
Siuan shields Rand...
Verin rescues Rand...
Siuan shields Rand...
Lanfear rescues Rand... (Yay Lanfear!)
Instead of Nynaeve rescuing Egwene... Eggy rescues herself, because... Eggy.
Rand kills Turak... with saidin.
Mat stabs Rand with the Dagger... by accident.
Damane shield Rand.
Moron rescues Rand from being shielded by the Seanchan.
Elayne heals Rand.
Eggy protects Rand when Ishy attacks him.
Perrin helps protect Rand, too.
Rand stabs Ishy with sword.
Moron uses fire to make a fiery dragon (image) wrap around the tower to proclaim Rand... so it isn't even Rand's own actions that proclaim him... but Moron's intervention.
Or, to put it another way with less detail...
Girl power
Girl power
Girl power
Steal from Girl N to give Girl power
Boy power...
Boy BAD!
Girl power
Girl power
Girl power
Girl power.
Boy power?
Boy power?
Girl power!
This was a really enjoyable discussion to sit in on.
The only thing I want to add is this show and 100's of other adaptations are examples of the dangers of letting creative types have a hand on someone else's work, because they're creative and don't want to just interpret something to screen. They know better, they're actually better writers and story tellers and the source material is... whatever.
Hollywood has been butchering the works of authors making films that have little in common with it's source material for as long as I've been alive so expecting a mostly true to the source material adaptation from hollywood is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's sad but it is what it is, Hollywood types generally have zero respect for authors.
Also, this is the danger of putting someone like Rafe at the helm because he's got social commentary that he's going to cram in his story whether it's appropriate or not and we saw this from the initial casting where a small farm village on the ass end of nowhere had racial diversity that you would only see in a modern city like NYC.
Cheers!
The mining town is Four Kings. The show combined the events of several chapters of Rand & Mat into this piece.
No, it's Breen's Spring. The inn is called the Four Kings.
That was a great discussion ladies. You've both articulated why I feel flat and not at all satisfied throughout and at the end of each episode. Yes, I'm a book reader and Episode 8 was atrocious.
Great discussion and very insightful! 1:58.45 onwards (and elsewhere) you make a very good observation about the writing team/showrunners not spending enough time on the material from the books, and indeed making more work for themselves in the process, particularly in terms of having to rush major plot developments. The rushed (and confusing) endings of season 1 and 2 are very similar to what happened in The Rings of Power season finale. The writers spent so long developing mediocre sub-plots of their own invention or engineering unnecessary and confusing character conflict (again like WoT) that when we get to the final episode, suddenly they're forging the Three Rings. This major event needed at least half a season in terms of set-up (it's literally *the title of the show*). And the basic plot outline *is already written for them by Tolkien* (LOTR appendices). The WoT season 1 finale is worse than season 2 (which I did actually enjoy) but both suffer from being rushed, with very little set-up - I'm still not quite sure what Ishamael's plan was, the Horn of Valere wasn't set up well (even though the scene itself was great) and most importantly, because Rand does almost nothing throughout seasons 1 or 2, he's yet to feel like our hero. Sometimes he seems like an amazingly powerful channeler, and at other points extremely weak - so there's been little sense of his progression. I do think that Season 2 is much better than Season 1 so I'm hoping that things will continue to improve. But the writing teams of both WoT and RoP really need to start focusing on the source material that they actually have - in terms of the major plot points - and trusting that the authors actually knew what they were doing!
I think the production is better in season 2 but the writing is the same
The changes to Rand discredit RJ's dedication to showing his own war experience and passionately convincing us that war makes good people do awful things, and they do it because they care about others. It's tragic especially because the author went through it and the show can't even comprehend his virtue.
From character hour:
It's SO TRUE that the show gets characters wrong NOT because of their actions... but because of the consequences and reaction.
Nynaeve being an UTTER bitch to people is book accurate.
Nynaeve being self righteous and struggling to admit fault. Book accurate.
But in the books these things are not her displaying strength. They are an expression of her insecurities, her immaturity and her outright horror at what is happening.
Her strength is her genuine love for people. A love SO deep that it often makes her FURIOUS at people. She HATES the Aes Sedai for having taken "her kids" but ALSO for their political nonsense, their indifference to suffering AND for the power they hoard without using to help people.
And when she IS forced to confront her actions... she makes excuses NOT because she did nothing wrong, but bc she CAN'T admit fault. It's her flaw. It is written as a flaw. Other characters ABSOLUTELY understand this flaw... and her struggles with it are some of the best moments in the books imo.
Like her or not, she FEELS responsible for the others. She was their "big sister" and looked after them. Egwene is literally her apprentice.
And her responsibilities in Two Rivers were significant. As Wisdom she was more than the local doctor. She was potentially a greater authority than the mayor. And she rose so young that she's ALWAYS insecure about that.
... And NONE of this is conveyed in the show.
And yet all of this is communicated in BOOK ONE and remains the core of her personality and her journey.
On Robert Jordan "fudging" powerful channellers just "figuring things out more easily"
I get the criticism, but I don't think it's actually a bad decision.
This is how things work. In real life.
Some people are just better able to grasp concepts and develop talents.
Jordan even explores the idea that too great an emphasis on this IS a bad thing (what happens with white tower novices in later books)
And for Rand in particular... it is UNRQUIVICALLY part of his madness. LTT emerging as a personality is behind a LOT of Rand's personal breakthroughs.
I honestly don't think it's as much of a crutch as people convince themselves.
On Lanfear/Selene - Jordan didn't try to hide anything. If the show was TRYING to conceal her identity... of course it would have been done better. In the book it is CLEARLY a setup. A gorgeous woman just HAPPENS to stumble across the boys and need rescuing, but ALSO happens to have information they need to save them? And she's sus the entire time?
She has Loial eating out of her hand and seems generally completely in control at all times... despite being a lone woman in the wilderness being chased by monsters.
It's no subtle.
The way Jordan wrote it (imo) was all about making the reader frustrated with how easily Rand is being manipulated, and to set up their relationship for the future, where Rand is never ENTIRELY sure about her, despite knowing she is a Forsaken whose name has been used to scare children for thousands of years.
On having a "script doctor" or whatever on set to deal with changes and prevent mistakes...
It seems this is a problem even when actors ARE experts. Henry Cavill was happy to provide his extensive knowledge and insight on the Witcher... and for his troubles the production crew attempted to smear his name.
As the meme goes, Hollywood should have a mandatory position for any adaptation that has a book superfan walking around with a copy of the book to hit people over their head with when they do dumb shit :P And there should likely be one for each writer in the writers room, considering how awful most adaptations are.
@@DmGray I have not been able to verify the Cavill story. I can only find fandom rumors suggesting this was the reason he parted ways with The Witcher. But the rest of your points are well taken.
Perhaps it is fan overreaction to an offhand comment from production staff being turned into a story... but those stories were still written for the fans to get angry about :P
It's probably fair to say it's a clickbait journalism problem more than an "interpersonal conflict on set" problem though. It just bothers me how easy it is for those stories to get published. I suspect if the public response had been against Cavill, there would have been further negative comments, rather than damage control and denial :P... but I admit that's my pessimism speaking.@@amys0482
I think those who dislike the show should listen to the podcasts about WOT Show by Wheel Takes. They are a screenwriter and an actor and they might help people like the show a lot more. I love it. Yes these long books require a BOLD adaptation and no two people would do it the same way.
As for good show adaptations don't forget The Expanse! If you need another giant series to read after WoT, would love to see some comparison thoughts on that show vs book and how it compares to WoT-esque adaptations.
expanse is the best tv show ever made
1:22:50 it's not power, it's affinity. Rand is one thing, his ability to invent weaves is explained fairly well, but the rest only learn a couple of things and it's only because they're particularly good at that certain thing. Inherent skills, if you will. There's also Ta'veren at work, so that needs to be considered as well. Things that would normally be one in a million happening twice to one person is possible because they're part of the weave of the Wheel itself.
Thanks !
An excellent book-to-screen adaptation is Ender's Game. They aged up the characters a small amount, they modified some details and left out much of the Peter & Valentine side-plots, but the intent of the story was consistently very faithful.
I was disappointed with the film but with the drivil that's produced atm I realise that it's not as bad as I thought, also I love the training room.
The Eye of the World was conceived as a LOTR homage. He (rj) explains that at the time, publishers were not picking up non-lotr-ish fantasy, so he infused homage elements into EotW.
Amy was dead on accurate with the statement that the only thing that really needed to be changed was truncating the plot. Just cut the fat and hit the big plot points and IMO everyone would have been happy. I was actually looking forward to it - RJ needed an editor. But what they did ... grrrrrr
Yes. This is why I’ve never really been convinced by the ‘not enough time’ argument. There’s a lot of fluff in the books too - RJ was very descriptive and often repetitive hence page count is misleading. I think they could’ve stuck to the main story and still covered two books per season (using the director’s cuts of LotR as a paradigm for runtime). The invented stuff they created for the show is just terrible imo.
I greatly appreciate both of you for your integrity and experienced perspectives. Let me say this: If you approach your view of this show as if it ought to be titled Rosamund Pike's Vanity Project (RPVP), helps you see why they make many of the choices they did in deconstructing a great story. Consider that Pike is the driving energy behind the show, and Rafe Judkins is simply the guy who agreed to develop her vision.
Thanks, Ladies. Very enjoyable. :)
The show runner and writers could have learned from Peter Jackson's take on adaptation when they were doing Lord of the Rings:
"As film makers, as writers, we had no interest whatsoever in putting our junk, our baggage, into these movies. We just thought we should take what Tolkein cared about, clearly, we should take those and we should put them into the film. This should ultimately be Tolkein's film, it shouldn't be ours."
They should be focused on making Robert Jordan's vision, good and bad, not their own.
This is why LotR was a fantastic adaptation and TO THIS DAY holds up as better entertainment than most of the crap that comes out.
Amber's thesis on why people like Rand is that they are interested in "watching innocence be slowly beaten down" - LOL. Strap in. Get ready for the ride.
It's actually rather interesting all the variations of this concept playing out in the different characters. Rand who has a very strong idea about right and wrong and has this deep love for his home and his friends & family, basically goes through what Amber says, except there is also the part about all the stuff he has to lose or give up to save the world. Book 1 is basically the universe telling Rand "You can't have that, you can't be that," over and over. Some of the characters go into it believing that they can save the world or do other big things, and have to learn the costs of doing so and the changes they have to undergo to get what they want. Others think they are just ordinary people trying to survive and get through this crisis and they aren't powerful or important and have to learn that, no, you have the ability to fix this problem so you have the responsibility to do so.
Great analysis, 2 basic comments, while I agree on the passage of time and the moss covered buildings, we did have several mentions in the books of ruins and towers that are left over from the age of legends.
Also as far as style and empires changing over time, I look at how the fact that the Aes Sedai who live up to 300 years could have influenced some of the stability and static nature of many of the countries.
oh! Great point about the ages of the Aes Sedai. But this is only a little more than three times the age length of humans. So if we divide 3000 by 3, we get 1000. 1000 years ago, Æthelred the Unready was the King of England, and the Crusades wouldn't happen for another 72 years. fashions and architectural technology have still DRAMATICALLY changed.
As for the Moraine stuff --- 100% this is driven, I think, by the Siuan-Moraine as romantic partners today, problem: they decided that rather than underselling the pillow friends idea they would make it into 'a thing' --- but the problem is that this means they have to get them to break up because after book 2 or 3 they aren't really involved with each other... but that means that they need Moraine to break Siuan's trust (by not communicating well) and they need Siuan to break Moraines trust (by actually using the command power of the oath rod).
With the major changes we've already seen, how do we know the ladies won't make up later? Amy is right: this show is targeted at non-book fans. Rafe has his own ideology and agenda, which he proudly admits to inserting in the show. He wants it to appeal to a "modern audience": i.e., progressives like himself.
Tbh, since I didn't read the books until after I watched S1, I can accept most of the changes. The slash fanfic pairing of Moiraine and Suian was the line I wouldn't cross, even before I read the real story. According to canon, the ladies stopped that relationship soon after being raised to full Aes Sedai (which was what normally did happen in the Tower).
I don't understand why they've been aged up so much. Moiraine was the youngest of three sisters, not the firstborn. She was a novice at 16, accepted at 19, and Aes Sedai at 22. Twenty years later, she's now 42. Why was that changed?
I see no reason to expect Moiraine and Siuan to cease being a thing in the show. I mean maybe, but Rafe certainly does not feel constrained by the books. If he wants them to be together, then they will be.
I can maybe see this being the reason, but it doesn't work for Siuan or Rand's character. (spoilers full book series).
For Siuan I despise her about as much as book Elaida. As pointed out in the video, her reasoning makes no sense because she had to have been working with Moiraine to setup the whole Logain thing, so the only issue she really has is that Moiraine is stilled which doesn't work because Moiraine couldn't have taught him anyway and when Moiraine finds out she's she persists in her dumb plan. Show Siuan has demonstrated that she's petulant and can't be trusted even by those closest to her. I feel really bad for show Gareth Bryne and Leane.
The bigger long term problem is Rand. He was just betrayed in a massive way by the Amyrlin who he knows is close to Moiraine (which show Rand for some reason trusts enough to believe her when she randomly slits his girlfriends throat even though I can't see why) and who Lan says is a good person. He's an even bigger idiot than we've seen so far if he trusts a delegations lead and sent by a Red. Maybe they're cutting that entire sequence from the show, but if they're telling the same story it kind of has to be an important sequence.
@@christophercraig3907 I expect that sequence will be in there at some point but somehow it will be shown to be all Rand's fault, probably something to do with hubris.
In the books after Siuan is stilled, if I remember correctly there is basically no contact between Siuan and Moiraine --- Rand isn't really involved in the tower-in-exile story line until the end of the series. I think this is to make it make sense that they have nothing to do with each other from this point on (because if they are lovers then you would expect Moiraine to reach out after Siuan is stilled but it will make it easier for her to say 'no' when she finds out now and it will be more dramatic).
I do think they are trying to keep most of the plot beats similar in a lot of ways, they're just doing it --- poorly --- because there are also external things pulling at them (like the fact that Moiraine does fuck all in book 2 but Rosamand Pike is a huge name that you can't just keep on retainer for a whole season) So I am wrong, it isn't 100% driven by the ideological move, its also driven by the demands of attempting to have Rosamond Pike as a main character and how that interacts with this ideological move@@christophercraig3907
You two are fantastic - and oh dear, episode 8......................... You guys should do a combo review of that lore destructing / Dragon neutering fiesta.
Amazing discussion :)
30%? very generous. I would say around 15% of the books was in the first season
I theorized that they would make a different person the main character in each season…
We wasted tons of time on characters that aren’t important to the story. If Liandrin’s only purpose is to dump the girls in Falme, we don’t need to understand he motivation, just that she is evil and she does evil things.
HARD AGREE!!!! And it's a pity, because I actually liked what they did with Liandrin. I have no idea if it will screw up what is yet to come in the story, but with no outside knowledge, I was convinced that Liandrin is a bad guy who is about to turn good. I really badly wanted to see Liandrin become Nynaeve's private teacher against Nynaeve's wishes, but then Nynaeve notices that even though Liandrin doesn't put up with any of her BS, she starts noticing that she is actually making progress. Then we have this element of friction between two people who are working together. Then, I would want Nynaeve to come to genuinely respect Liandrin and see a side of her that no one else does, and she defends some of what Liandrin says and does..... and then it is revealed that Liandrin is actually a darkfriend (albeit a dark friend who is secretly doubting that she made the right choice and is slowly changing to good in her heart). Then Nynaeve feels betrayed and angry at Liandrin, and Liandrin has to leave the White Tower because she is exposed. Then, we eventually see that Nynaeve and Liandrin have to fight eachother, and when Liandrin returns to warn the White Tower about something, Nynaeve doesn't trust her..... there is so much that can be done with this kind of setup. Although it would likely require the story to be told over more than one season.... in addition to huge changes in more important plots. But anyway. That was where my brain went without any knowledge of where the books go.
If Liandrin really is basically a nobody character who isn't really involved anymore, that's a damn waste of good scenes.
@@theswordandthepenchannel The fun thing about your wishes for show-Liandrin's ark is that we get some of it in the books albeit with a different character. Only the "Nynyeave hate's their guts only to greatly respect them for what they did for her and other people later" part, but still
Great point about One Piece, i had only vague knowledge of that manga/anime but watched the show because of the fan reviews. The LoTR movies caused people who had never read the books, want to. This ......
Somehow whole "WoT books vs show" topic reminds of a certain scene from the certain movie with Tom Hardy. That:" I come here for a shootout. A proper shootout with some proper men. Like Colonel Custer and Geronimo, you ever heard of them? No. Cause you're too busy in your pinny baking fairy cakes, weren't ya?"
utube is really messing with everyone with is weird algo. Ive been looking for your channel, amy, for weeks ever since season 2 started. I watched all your reviews from the first seasons along the release and among those I watched here on utube, only you and daniel greene was interesting enough for me to continue following season out. But this time around I tried to look for you and despite putting searchwords for wheel of time review, your channel just wouldnt show up (last time I never got around to sub either - dont worry, this time I will). I did this atleast 5 times with no results so I actually thought you deleted your channel. anyway, lucky me you're collabing with sword and pen! (I started watching her channel about a month ago). So now I can watch all your reviews for season2. :)
They definitely changed something.
@amystewart Season 2 principle filming finished a month after season 1 finished airing, so it had been filming for 5 months before season 1 aired, and season 3 started principle filming in april and is due to finish next month. All the suposed good guys do evil actions without remose, exceptions so far are Elayne and Loial :|. Rand isn't more mature in the show, he's less Naieve and more cosmopolitain and that's different to maturity, he's mature in the book by making sure his chores are done without prompting he already adhears to the duty is a mountain death is lighter than a feather sort of philosophy. Rand has used a sword once where he promptly got disarmed when he fought the fade infront of lanfear, it is his only time actually using the blade.
I never thought Rand was able to suddenly do things because he’s powerful. I thought he always had lews therin inside him even early on. He wasn’t always aware of it but his instincts at times are based on lews Therins instincts
It's both.
It’s funny that you say Eye of the World is kind of a Lord of the Rings derivative book. I had recently finished the lord of the rings series, and was really depressed that I was done with it, thinking I wouldn’t find anything else. Good to read. That’s when I found the Eye of the World when perusing the local bookstore.
Only the first book is a derivative. There is some story that Jordan had to write it this way to get published. Then he went his own direction when writing the rest.
He was on a season of Survivor, his claim to fame. And then he has some writing credits on some show. His favorite character is Egwene so makes sense how things go. 🤷♂️
In the show things happen, they may not make sense, but you are supposed to accept that they were super significant and that the way they shaped the characters is logical.
Anyway watching you two break down some thoughts on WoT was great!
Interestingly when I watched you two discussing some of the inconsistencies between season 1 and season 2, it reminded me a lot of star trek picard, and how they basically ignored or subverted everything they developed in season 1 and season 2 of the show (as good or bad as they were) to write the most cookie cutter final season to give certain fans exactly what they wanted. I think in WoT's case they basically don't care about anything they've established, once they are making a new episode, or a new story arc, they are just trying to make moments that they think certain fans want...
Great stream! Completely agree about Moirane being the main character, thats been bothering me. Do you remember which channel did that breakdown?
It might have been Books and Bianca
I would argue Amy is not being harsh enough with this show
Something they failed to capture re: Nynaeve's character, in the books, her stubbornness and acerbic personality are often useful, and it's also comedic. They drained the humour and capability out of Nynaeve! In the books, she is motivated by fierce protectiveness and insecurity about her age, and her behaviour is sometimes a source of frustration AND amusement for other characters.
In magicans I did think they showed why the characters were depressed or flawed. Julia missed the entrance of Braekbills and when she discovered that magic was real it wrecked her. Her later struggles would further traumatize her. Elliot grew up on a farm with a conservative family which was nothing like him. Kady had her debt for her mother that made her betray the school and she never got closure. That and having to leave Penny so he could continue his education which in the show was needed so much to avoid death. Quintin was a classic depression patient with brain chemistry issues. Was displayed as much in the show because in the first episode he was told he didn't need his meds anymore. Janet/Margo we didn't really find any background story and most of her story revolved around Elliott so I would agree with you there. But she didn't seem any more messed up than normal people. Penny had people in his head all the time. You mentioned Alice so I won't go into her.
Basically all of these characters were pretty human to me. Ups and downs and making stupid decisions wasn't weird to me. My 20's were full of them. I didn't really enter my career or anything I would call classic adulthood until my mid-30's - house and marriage. That went bust and I tried it again when I was in my forties and was more successful. So these characters were just fine to me.
I did love the show, more than the books. With my anger over Wheel of Time I have tried to understand why I found it acceptable in The Magicians but not Wheel of Time.
Firstly, I didn't love and have the same relationship with The Magician books. Or remember it so well. I along with many others re-read the entire series as a new book was released. That has imprinted many scenes and plot points into my brain. The idea that I won't see them come to life makes me so sad and angry.
I might try to finish the show. I do think it was better than the books. I watched it a long time ago. I remember Alice had neglectful parents and was grieving her brother's death. In the books I don't remember learning much about the reasons for the struggles of the other characters (maybe vague references). But I didn't intend to do a deep critique of this story. It was just meant to be an example of where the show changed a lot but the changes were good, or at least equally interesting.
A bigger problem than addressing the causes of their mental states was that the flavor of psychological conflict for each of the characters was basically the same, without much shifting in character growth. For some characters to experience that is one thing, but for all the characters to remain (for the most part) completely flat-lined in their psychological development gets old real fast. It's a very effective way of creating wonderful characters that teens and young adults can resonate with during a certain period of their life, but for maturing audiences, the lacking character growth will feel tired after a few seasons.
@@theswordandthepenchannel I do think they created a tragic backstory for everyone like you mentioned in one of your videos. So yeah, they did use that trope. I just didn't notice it because I thought the show, like Buffy, balanced funny with drama. So many shows are just tragic and drama and no one is having any fun. The Magicans had fun. And the audience had fun during many scenes when the characters were not having fun. It was this balance that made me love the show. I think of Sarah Michelle Gellar's new show The Pack where I don't know if anyone even smiled. It was just DRAMATIC.
The Magicans, along with Doctor Who, fill my Buffy tank. People who really like each other, hanging out, having fun, saving the world.
Edit: oh yeah, a bunch of scary and bad things happen too. And sometimes they sing.
Rafe isn't just a fan of survivor, he was a contestant.
The passage of time issue is a big issue in fantasy. Game of thrones is a good example. The starks trace their ancestry back 8000 years. My dad went in depth on ours and could barely go back 150.
The mention of the design and style is spot on. In the books, whether it’s dress, accent, or attitude, characters can almost instantly be identified as from x country. In the show you have no idea.
Channeling in the show is like the sword of truth books. I know lots of people hate them but I liked the early ones. I was also young so I might reread them and not like them. In those books the main character is a war wizard, the first in a thousand years. He says the way it works is through need. He can’t just use magic. He has to have to have a problem to deal with.
1:22:24 I do need to comment on the statement that Rand in the books just figures out how to do things because he's powerful. I always read that as LT memories leaking through. In the later book he tells Min that he didn't have to do anything to integrate with LT because he always was one person, he just had to accept that. To me when Rand figures out how to do something in the early books it's because of that.
Rand had Lewis in his head showing him too