Bare Shaft Tuning Tips
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ส.ค. 2023
- One of my subscribers had a bare shaft fly perfect but fletched was very sloppy. Here's a few possibilities and his answer.
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One reason I love feathers, they’re soft and forgiving.
Troy, with all this talk about fishing, makes me think you might be quiting us. I know the road is tough and you have a lot of haters, but your doing good work. I hope you keep bringing us this great content for those who have ears to hear.
The comments on Dudley's interview with you are very interesting! LOL
Troy, really great tip right there. Most people wouldn't even think of the vanes being too tall.
Something else to consider. It may not be the size of your vanes or the timing of the drop away rest. It could be that your arrow is not properly nocked tuned. On compound bows, ideally you want the arrow bending up on takeoff, not down. Bending down may give you arrowrest contact. Just something to think about, to worry about 😂. This is why it is extremely important to traditional archery to nock tune the arrow. To get that perfect archer's paradox, we need the arrow bending away from the rest. The last thing we want is for the arrow bend to be bouncing off the riser or shelf.
Strangely, after bare shaft tuning, the higher your FOC is, the GREATER- small amounts of weight AT THE REAR OF THE ARROW can change that FOC and thus, your arrow flight. Plastic vanes weigh a lot more than feathers, (3 five inch vanes weigh 33 grains, 3 five inch feathers weigh about 7 grains) and a lighted nock weighs 15 to 20 grains more than a regular nock. Remember the LONGER THE LEVER CREATED at the back of the arrow (by increasing FOC), the more tiny bits of weight can affect arrow flight when they are installed on the end of that lever. I like the lipstick test for arrow rest issues. Genius. I am guessing my wife might be wondering why I want to borrow her lipstick as I head to the man cave.
Just tell her "you wouldn't understand" and leave her guessing. Women love that! 👍🏼😂👍🏼
I’ll probably move to feathers next year. I don’t hunt in the rain ever
Easiest way to tell if it's hitting or not while you have it nocked and the rest raised grip your bow where you can move your finger under the arrow drop the rest and look at the vanes see if it's hitting anything save the lipstick for your lips 😂😂😂😂
Lipstick, along with other makeup.. IS EXPENSIVE... @@tracychilds3546
Not strange at all. More FOC= longer lever arm for weight on back of arrow. Just like using a longer "cheater pipe" to break a bolt loose.
Lower profile vanes can accomplish what "the vanes you have always shot" can. I tried a few vanes and found that my arrow set up performed best with the tac driver 2.25
Thanks Troy for all your help .
Great information Sir. Keep up the amazing work.
keep it up troy waiting to hear you and John Dudley talk ether way im sticking with the heavy arrow proofs in the pudding for me.. 550 -600 grains for NW Florida deer
Dudley for most is a 550 guy. Dudley just says match the arrow to the game
Oh my goodness I was just gonna send you this message myself. I have the same darn problem perfect bullet hole with bear shaft and about a half inch tear low with fletched. Thanks Troy!
This is something everyone should do ! Even if you’re shooting decent!
In stead of changing the fletching move the nocking point up and repaper tune the bow.
Just did this this evening but used a paint marker. I had been noticing marks on the rest and started to look at my vanes and noticed just the ever so slightly dark mark on them. Got it figured out fletched another arrow to figure out where the vanes wouldn't come into contact, found it and now I have to go and refletch my hunting arrows. Oh well, just little details to make sure they are flying right. Thank you sir keep up the great work
THANKS TROY All i can say i went thru the whole deal putting my bow as square as I could get it without a bow press and I nock tuned all of my arrows didn't even have broadheads yet to check ordered some they came in 2 blade single bevel backed up to 30 yards and shot and it looked like a dart backed up to 40 hit inside a place on target about the size of a half a dollar i used to have to shoot broadhead and field point and then broadhead tune moving rest until they both came together if you was lucky enough to get them to come together and that would be after bringing it from a bow shop and "They" shot there pretty little bullet hole with my bow id go home and have a 3" tear
I think it's a combo of 2 or all 3 things. I never have to turn the nock for vane clearance. I shoot 4 low profile 1.75 or 2.25 Bohning X-vanes. They stick very well with their Platinum glue & i don't need to mess with a stupid primer pen. With the right overall weight & FOC then all u need is structural integrity. A vane that makes noise that last 10 yards to the deer is where hunters have an exponentially better chance of the dreaded overnight backout. There's nothing wrong with the mindset of the target is dead upon release of the arrow & that it's a forgone conclusion & the only doubt is whether the animal has a bloodtrail of feet or yards.
Switched to x vanes was using tac
I just went through this with my son's setup. Bare shafted perfect, but the fletched arrows caught my eye in flight. My phone has a super slow motion option on the camera and sure enough the rest was not dropping out of the way fast enough. Bumped up the timing and fixed it.
Your videos kick asstroids. I love it. Never thought about the lipstick haha thank you
Ahhhhh, grasshopper learning all da time!
I recently had a similar issue. I bareshaft nock tuned my arrows but after I fletched the arrows I had a couple arrows that didn’t shoot a perfect bullet hole. Fortunately I was able to correct this by turning the nock 90 degrees left or right.
I would like to see some study done as to how fletching affects arrow spine. It seems there has been some that concluded that fletching stiffens the spine. It has been years (maybe 20years) ago that I tried bare shafting out of my traditional bows and after thinking I had it perfect, I fletched my shafts and immediately the arrows were too stiff.
I'm still traveling down the worm hole, and while doing so, I've noticed a set of 500 grain field point arrows I have that hit dead on point with a 400 grain broadhead arrow setup at 30 and 40 as of now. But the 500 grain broadhead arrows hit about .5 inch low compared to the 500 grain tips. Testing to be continued 😅😅
.5” low from your field points can just be due to drag from the broadhead. If it was way low or left/right then I’d say to start making micro adjustments to your rest to bring the broadhead in, but you’re probably good.
I always check the bareshaft by inserting the nock into the bowstring in one way, then I turn it 180 degrees, the flight should be the same if not, you need to do something with the arrow.For example, check the alignment with the tip. Otherwise, you can adjust the bow to the wrong bareshaft.
So many things can make it from perfect bare shaft to a problem lol. Vanes or fletchings are often overlooked.
Fairy, please make a video about it. A bullet hole with the bare shaft, and then with the same arrow, but fletched. Thank you.
Solid advice, my wife’s gonna be down one… 😂
Isn't it also possible that his fall away rest was dropping too quickly? If he's not shooting a tall vane he might need to slow down the timing. I tried a couple of those rests, didn't have great luck so I switched to a whisker biscuit and it serves me well. Does a great job of keeping the arrow on the rest in the stand and while drawing.
I just went through this issue! My bare shafts were perfect and after fletching the arrows something didn’t look right as I was shooting, come to find out, the cables were hitting the fletchings!
Had to change mine from 3 fletched to 4 fletched to stop mine from hitting the drop away, running shorter 4 fletched now
100 percent my favorite setup now. I got hold of some of those tiny 2” razor feathers or whatever they’re called. They’re awesome.
Looks like a 4 fletch setup. Easy to fowl on the rest-cable. I stay close to the paper. I paper tune with a fletched arrow. 10 ft. or so. Make sure the paper is not tilted or loose. Stay close in the Zone where the Fletches are a negligible input to the Equation. I assume your sub is flinging arrows from a Compound.
Haven't watch yet just a thought. Have you tried the little push on fletching? Not sure what they call them
Anyone know if this would help with broadheads hitting about 2 inches high? Shot my first group (1bh 2fp) at 20 and they all shot together. Since then I’ve noticed my broadheads all seem to hit about 1.5-2in higher than my field points. Only thing I added were fletchings. Made sure the vanes were clearing the cables too. Really don’t want to move my rest at all if I don’t have to. Had them bareshaft perfect
Contact issues where my mind would go first
Up 560 grain 23% foc ,20 inch bolt(crossbows) going to see how a single belive will fly really won't to ĝo to a 300 grain broadhead if it will fly right m up now has 199 ke at launch an I fill would be unstoppable how far should I go
Something I have done, decades ago for this problem, is switch to feathers or give the problem plastic vane a haircut with scissors. Then shoot the bow.
Anyone else notice a broken QAD Ultra rest integrate? @ 8:02
Do 4 vanes help stabilize More than 3????
What if you shoot a whisker biscuits type rest would that mess with it
Great question!
Pro tip: after bare shaft tuning is complete, only fletch ONE arrow to check clearance. Ask me how I know…..😂
IT IS THE WAY
- Mandelorian
Front of the vanes are literally the shallowest part and least likely to be making contact with anything... If your going to check for contact put it on the entire length of the fletch.
I think he just meant the forward facing surface, the whole edge being the front. Worded weird yeah.
@@jcarry5214 understand, I get it and I've done the pink lipstick thing before. I thought it was just worded weird until he demonstrates exactly where to put it on the arrow with his finger. I'm gonna go talk to big John about this.
Turn the knock see if it chxs
You got vane contact somewhere with your fletched arrow.
But if you’ve already nock tuned bare shaft and then you fletch and turn your nock a bit to make fletchings miss cable contact, didn’t that negate the bare shaft nock tuning you did?
Yep but its still a hell of a lot better than vanes hitting the cables.
Feather vanes are more forgiving all around though,right ?
Depends. I have some that definitely hit but feathers fold. I think they might catch more crosswind maybe. In general I find them to be super forgiving compared to vanes I think you’re right
Couldn’t it also be the spine deflection is not the same as the bare shaft. Good to have a spine checker
If you mean the spine is inconsistent arrow to arrow - absolutely.
You can bare shaft every single arrow and nock tune with your bow! It’s the ultimate spine check and under the exact launch conditions as shooting.
Ashby covered the size of vanes in his studies. Don’t need much with high foc. Flex fletch ffp-150’s work well for me. 3grains each.
Man i set my dropaway myself 18 months ago and the timing decided to shit the bed 5 days before elk opener. 2” groups at 40 and suddenly zingers 3” off at 7 yards. Was chasing my tail for about 24 hours then it got so bad I could hear it over my music. Duh.
Spray foot powder is easier to apply and clean than lipstick….both will do the job though.
I think paper tuning is the most difficult you have to have perfect form every time and I just don’t
6:02 I would note that you may sacrifice a very small aspect of a nock-tuned arrow, but if you've done the insert tuning, I think it's only going to be minutely marginal and the entire aroow set up, if done correctly should still do what it's supposed to do and your penetraion factor shouldn't have a measurable difference
So I need to explore this. But I cant get past the arrows being shoved from the back!!!
@@RanchFairy So you think the sacrifice might be bigger?
@@RanchFairy I edited my comment to be less assertive because I'm only guessing, but your reply has me wondering now
Man. I watched that last podcast you were on. If that wasn't 2hrs of Vader trying to get Luke to come to the dark side I dunno what it was.
Everything you do is wrong... come to our side and let me school your in our ways. I will train you!!! Come to our side apprentice!!!!
Ranch Fairy 🧚♂️! I got out my Black Widow Recurve and practiced shooting with it. I had consistent rather tight groups.
I got up the next day to practice more with the same equipment but now I can’t hit minute of broadside of Airplane Hanger !
Hmmm 🤔! 🏹🦌☠️😮😮😮
Trad is so punishing from one day, often one hour, to the next. But the more you lock in a shooting system and engrain it to your brain the better everything gets
@@nicetryb0z0
This is true. The weakest link is me and my inconsistent release. I have a lot right but that one thing is where I fail !
🏹🦌☠️🏹🦌☠️🏹🦌☠️🏹🦌☠️
@@user-xw4sn4lq4h yeah I'm a hunter so right now I'm trying to develop a system, be it physical or mental or both, that allows me to confidently shoot precise on the first shot. I shoot fantastic once I'm warmed up, but I've had some wonky "first shot/cold shot" gotta get rid of those because that's the one that counts
@@user-xw4sn4lq4h TOTALLY it drives me nuts sometimes. I started missing one day. Several sessions later I realize I'm getting my humb way too far around and trying to hold it like an antique recurve with that deep pistol grip. Another day I start missing the target completely in the middle of tight groups. Dragging my ring finger. That one almost made me quit, I had to drive to my buddy's house and have him watch me, had to switch to only 2, split, temporarily. Not real fun on a 55#. He wanted me to tape it to my middle I said I'd rather glue my balls to my leg.
@@nicetryb0z0 I think you always gotta warm up a little before you leave camp and bend the bow a few times during the day, I swear the bow can't actually shoot after stringing until you fire it in 5 times or so. I think if you crank off 5 or ten, leave it strung, and come back 6 hours later you'll surprise yourself. I did that on accident. Left it strung one night, 24 hours later shot number 1 went PLONK in the yes zone. I actually started finding I could drain the first shot at any range within my limits but the rest of the groups were junk until I was hot like you say.
That's just something I found helps my confidence. Just make sure you include some angled shots. I didn't and my first afternoon of my first elk hunt I had a cow walk up to me at 18y but she was about twelve feet down slope and it shattered my confidence. It just hadn't occurred to me. You'll always be chasing them down but building the belief it's possible is the biggest first step. But I'm probably telling you things you know already.
Went to 4 fletch this year and they were hitting my face, i just had to tune to that and it wasnt a problem. Im going back to 3 fletching though. 4 wasn't worth the hassle
What was the hassle for you, did you find? No judgment, sincere question. I get infuriated I can't get them evenly spaced around the shaft but I don't think it matters much now. It just looks like a little kid was helping.
Anybody else here try zinger fletches? I used em last year and they fly awesome no need for a jig
Yes, they suck! Constantly tearing them! Also, they WILL move on you unless you glue them!!!! If your planning on shooting fixed they are definitely NOT big enough to stabilize!!!!
Havnt used zingers , but here in australia there is a company called easy vanes. They have a much bigger selection of vanes shapes/sizes. Ther also pretty tough
Not having the back end of the shaft square will mess you up
Had this problem. QAD rest was wore out and too slow to fall.
They wear out? My cable string was slipping in the little clip but it's also sounding weird occasionally and it got me wondering if they ever die.
😂 no goofy shit to worry about on my recurves
Lol let’s go through all the goofy shit that goes on with recurves together, ahall we? Not this problem thankfully.
@@jcarry5214😂
@@ScottWConvid19 for example I suddenly picked up the habit of dragging my ring finger when I was forced to go back to split from 3 under on a new bow that wouldn't comply. Just one day I started getting spinners. I'd shoot a sickening tight group then an arrow would miss, maybe even not hit the target. Clean miss, hole in the garage door! I thought I was having seizures.
Can't talk too much trash though, my compound dropaway rest was on the nuts for 18 months then it decided to not be timed anymore a week before elk season starts. I'm going crazy, testing with and without the quiver, moving the bump stop in and out, 4 vs 6 arrows in quiver. Bow breaks nocks at 40 regularly, suddenly shooting saucer groups at 10. Well. just yank on that string dumbass.
hunt em down like a pack of wolves?? maybe they shouldn't act like prey :) and you expect me to go buy some lipstick? What are you doing in your spare time Troy haha
I just watched your podcast with Dudley and I must say you showed a lot of character. You stayed calm and let hik talk to you like you was clueless basically. I’m glad you explained that you are smart at the end and I think he realized he should have asked alot more question about you in the beginning and actually got to no you. He didn’t do his research. I stuck up for you in the comments. Because I do listen to his form shooting crap. But I listen to you when it comes to killing. Because I am the average guy. That’s why I laughed when he showed the pictures on his phone shooting diff spines. They was all in the middle of the target 😂 he shoots good shots with twizlers. But I wish you would have just said I never told anyone to shoot tac with a heavy arrow. But I’ve took bits and pieces from both of you guys. I shoot a 340 axis, 25 grain iron will shock collar, stock 16 grain hit, and 100 grain qad exodus, 4 fletch x vane. 470 grain total. Blows through deer. And like you say don’t go super heavy just have perfect arrow flight and a cut on contact head. Dudley is mad because he sells rage and they bend up like a piece of aluminum foil and cost a ton for throw aways. Keep up the good content 👍🏻
looks like he runs 4 fletched switching to a 3 fletch with cock feather up it might change the angle of the fleshing enough because it's a more obtuse angle that it doesn't hit the rest.
Just put a band-aid on it 🙄. That’s always the answer
Started out with an old Reflex bow (they stopped producing them around 2005) and the cables wouldn't allow anything over .4 inches to clear - take a look at your cables and see if there's marks in line with your fletchings. If it's bullet bare shaft you can get away with VERY short vanes
Maybe his timing was to fast and the arrow fell into the rest?
What you need is 999 grain arrow and one those big flip flapper single bevel three blade tool steel fixed broadheads and that should fix it rite up it will crush that elephant buffalo bone up and turn your bow up to 219 fps you be good
Just watched the Dudley pod. If he wouldve took 10 min to watch one of these vids he would’ve known Troy isn’t stupid. 80% of us isn’t shooting 70 plus meters. Plus Dudley’s test are all field points. Idk ab y’all but I’m not shooting field tips at animals.
Your arrow talk is great but most guys can't shoot good enough to us the info. Custom arrows don't make the average shooter any better. Factory arrows shoot better than most guys can. Practice good shooting form will do more to improve groups than custom arrows.
I have found this to be absolutely untrue.
I’m a horribly average form guy. But some time with bare shafts and changing the arrows via spine or point mass changes the bending rates. “Custom” bending arrows
If most people had completely repeatable form, maybe the arrow doesn’t matter
Then there is the discussion, if the arrow is flying great. Is it, in fact, the best on meat penetrator? That I have been testing - answer is nope.
@@RanchFairy The best arrows will NOT fly good if you have poor form. Poor form = poor arrow flight. Good form applies to any sport that's why they have coaches. Torque your bow a little and watch your arrow zig and zag. Add a little buck fever just for fun. Add a fixed blade broardhead and that arrow will fly like a drunk bat. Changing arrows will NOT correct that problem. Big time hunters and shooters like Chris , Dudley and bone collector will tell you the same thing and also cover it in their video. Ask any pro shooter and he will tell you form is the most important element to good shooting. A factory arrow like victory rip is capable of shooting better groups than most shooters are capable of shooting. I've found poor shooters are always messing with arrows, sights, rests and releases and they still can't hit a bull in the butt. Have a pro shop set up your bow and with the right arrows then go practice until you hit something.
It’s not either/or and I don’t know why people keep setting up a discussion like it is.
Both are important and it’s a discussion about the difference of accuracy (your skill) and precision (random error).
Training gets you a bit of both: accuracy because you shoot better with more consistent aim and your arrows group around the same centre. Precision because you wobble less or reduce other errors through your form meaning the arrows group tighter.
Arrow tuning will only improve precision, meaning arrows will group tighter, and does nothing for accuracy (I.e. if you shoot it high it will hit high).
I think the point is, anyone can run “the process” in a few hours and benefit from it…train a lifetime and you still might not be world champion
Neither matter if your arrow doesn’t do what it needs to if it hits the target.
You missed the point , if a guy can't shoot a factory arrow good he will NOT shoot a custom arrow any better. The average guy will not benefit from the very small improvement of a custom arrow. Pros us custom arrows because a 1/4 inch is the difference between winning and losing. The problem with hunting arrows is fixed blade broadheads that have to be tuned because they don't fly straight.@@philipgolds5240
Which is why when you hear a "pro" say bare shaft tuning is a waste of time, you should stop right there. Bare shaft tuning makes everything (form, arrows and bow) better.
By the way RANCH FAIRY SHOOT ADuLT FPS SHOOT ADULT BOLTS get out Stone Age