The Orville TIME TRAVEL Paradox that Changes History!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2021
- The Orville Time Travel Paradox!
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Once they closed the wormhole, I don't think it would bring back the other vessels, erasing Pria ever coming. I think it just booted her out of this part of the timeline when she went back for the Orville, specifically.
Time paradoxes hurt the brain. Sci fi is a suspension of disbelief and that is good enough for me! I liked the episode.
Great Scott... that was heavy.
This is GENIUS!!! Excellent imaginations on your part!! When are we getting more of The Orville?? We need more Orville so that those of you at the Popcast can keep bringing us brilliance. I love your work and desire to keep us entertained and thinking.
Thanks Mike! Comments like this make it totally worth the work!
The latest word is the third season of The Orville will premier on 10 March 2022.
Rest in Peace Norm Mcdonald (voice of yaphet).
Now I'm itchier than ever.
Thanks a lot.
lol
No, it's a simple time loop, when she vanishes, she returns to the beginning! The wormhole was there in the past and will be in the future. The wormhole wasn't destroyed, they just disrupted it, temporarily! Priya is the one caught in the time loop, not The Orville's crew.
I always assumed that Pria's interference kept the Orville from being destroyed in "bubble space", thereby making it available to save the day against the Kaylon attack. With it gone, as Pria said it would be if the timeline had followed its natural course, the Kaylon would have taken over the galaxy. I'm tempted to say that now I'm confused, but I'm not. It is the writer's who were confused and they did not see the contradictions they introduced into the series. It's not you. It's not me. It's them.
More "ORVILLE" please!
Awesome Breakdown! More of these, please! 🙏🏼
Thanks! We are working on some new theories for sure!
Yes, I would! Go for its please!
I'm sorry, but I've got to point something out that may blow this entire theory up ("may", because it's been a while since I've watched season 2, so I can't account for how it handles time travel off the top of my head). But the essential thing to understand about the Pria episode is this:
Pria is lying.
The sequence of events in that episode start with the Orville on whatever course it was originally on. Then they get a distress call. Then they engage quantum drive (and they're responding to a distress call so we can safely assume they're cranking the engines up to full for this) to get there. They save Pria and either (been a while so I don't entirely recall which) continue on towards their original destination (from their new position where they rescued Pria) or set a new course for a mining colony to drop Pria off (since they still believe that's where she works). Then they encounter a dark matter storm and escape it with only minor damage (conveniently, to their communications array). Then they head for the wormhole (though still thinking it's where the mining colony is).
Here's the problem: they enter the dark matter storm at sublight speeds, exit it also at sublight speeds, and don't exit it just by backing out the way they came. That implies that this thing is relatively small (if it can be entered and exited at sublight, then it must be small in multiple dimensions). It is therefore highly unlikely that it was small in every other direction, but long enough in the one axis necessary to have also been encountered by the Orville on its original, pre-Pria-distress-call course. (That just strikes me as ridiculously contrived, and I'd rather give the writers more credit than that.)
I.e., they never encountered the dark matter storm in the original timeline. The only reason they encounter after Pria's interference is because she interfered. My belief is that she picked the exact time and place (that date and an asteroid falling into that specific star) just to put them in line to encounter the storm after they rescue her and continue on their way. And all to help sell the lie that the Orville needs to let itself be taken to the future out of moral duty to preserve the timeline.
But then, why did she disappear and why did the events she helped to orchestrate still have occurred after the wormhole is destroyed? Well, she's a liar, but (at least in this episode), Isaac is not. And IIRC, according to Ed, he says the theory is that a time travel mechanism (in this case, the wormhole) allows for multiple contradictory histories to coexist. So the original timeline is that the Orville never encounters the dark matter storm and continues on its merry way, to be ultimately destroyed or decommissioned as it ends up being. But 400 years later, Pria has a wormhole she can use to go back in time and steal it to sell it to the highest bidder.
(It should be noted that I don't take anything she said as trustworthy, so the whole Amelia Earhart thing just strikes me as more "selling the lie". I believe the "highest bidder" thing because it's what we ourselves see after they go through the wormhole.)
The Orville can simultaneously be historically remembered as having been decommissioned or whatever when it actually was AND be in the hands of future aliens because the wormhole sustains its mutually contradictory existences. And that's Pria's plan.
So what happens instead? Well, the wormhole is also sustaining Pria's multiple existences, too. She exists in a simultaneous state of "living in a future where there's a time travel wormhole" and "living in a future with no such thing". While the wormhole exists, she can exist in the past, up to the point where the wormhole is destroyed. After that, the only version of her that can exist is the one in a future where there never was a wormhole, and so the one we see in the past winks out.
So how come her influence in the past doesn't come undone? Because the wormhole still existed while she was there. Those events remain real/having occurred because the wormhole existed to sustain their happenings. After all, whether the wormhole continues to Pria's time or not, it at least existed up until Ed destroys or doesn't destroy it.
I will admit, though, that I haven't really examined how the time travel rules in season 2 mesh into my current understanding yet.
I want to follow that up, though, by saying "Thank you". I don't see enough engagement with the Orville universe and I'm glad someone is putting out content about it.
Thank you for your explanation!! I can follow it much better than the one in the video! Plus, your explanation really makes sense. I have always believed that Pria was lying, saying things just to get the ship and make money from it.
Thanks for your explanation!! I can follow it much better than the one in the video! Plus, your explanation really makes sense. I have always believed Pria was lying, saying things just to get the ship and make money from it.
There's only one set of sci-fi mechanics for time travel that works without paradox.
Alternate timelines, going back causes a split in the timeline (what Pratchett called the trousers of time) & you now exist in a brand new timeline where an older you (the you we follow) just appeared in the past.
Your old timeline continues to exist & nothing you do in the new timeline changes anything in it.
If you can (& do) re-enter your original timeline at any point along it you just cause another split.
Simple.
Clean.
It does mean you now have two of you, you're younger self & you.
Paradox is impossible though.
It does mean you can never benefit from anything you do in the past if you then return to your original timeline just after you left though.
And if you stay in the new timeline or slide forward on it there will now always be two of you.
Unless you murder the younger you in the new timeline to take his place.
Actually I don't think there's a paradox at all with regard to Pria. Pria already came back and saved the Orville so of course the crew remembered them and she supposedly didn't cause them to go through that dark matter nebula. They would have supposedly done that in every timeline. If as you suggest - she caused them to go to the nebula which would have destroyed the ship then, thus causing the "paradox", then she would have been killed in the destruction just the same. This makes sense to me because I'm a software engineer and to me this is just like recursion with regard to software engineering.
Also, with Amelia Earheart, the destruction of the wormhole happened after Amelia Earheart - 500 years later so basically everything stolen prior to the destruction of the wormhole will still happen.
Love DUH Orville. Love THE Orville way more. Love English as well.
I always did wonder about the episode Pria, because if she came from 400-something years in the future to bring the ship (and crew) back with her because they were supposed to be destroyed, then how would she even exist, when, if the Orville was supposed to be destroyed, wouldn’t that mean they wouldn’t be around to stop the Kaylons from invading the galaxy and annihilating all life?
If I remembered the episode correctly pria was talking to captain Mercer at the end was actually a transmission of her through the worm hole that's how she got into his ready room so when the captain destroyed the worm hole the transmission was ended she didn't vanish from the timeline
New timeline was created, kinda like the variants in Loki.
Yes, PLEASE give us more of this! I was more or less able to follow your explanation, and now I no longer think of the Orville universe in the same way, and that's a good thing...for now lol!
One suggestion though: since this paradox seems to be singular in it's nature so far, why not name it after the person who created it, The Pria Paradox?
I called these things, self haniolating paradox. It gets even more confusing to attempt to explain, but basically, it lends to the multiple universe theory..but not neetly. If anyone help shovel some of this into a less than brain aneurysm, feel free to add to it.
The smoking episode was awesome. I love chain smoking
In the 2 parter where Ed didn't become captain of the Orville, Isaac wouldn't have been humiliated by Gordon as he would not be on the Orville either. Hence the Kaylon would *still* have made the same decisions about the Union. Remember the Kaylon wiped out the species that created them in the first place. Isaac was not there to determine if the Union should be spared or destroyed but to determine their strength and capability *when* the Kaylon attacked.
Other than that, great video, thumbs up added!
I was thinking the same thing. This theory video is pretty solid for dissecting the time travel episodes, but it still has flaws.
Don't forget that the first rule of time travel is there is an original base time-line. When you go back in time any changes cause a new time-line to be split off an created. STOS City on the Edge of Forever is the best time travel episode. Funny how that new UFO report doesn't indicate that they could be from the future observing the past.
Time Travel is really hard, but if done well is incredibly rewarding! :)
Fan of the 12 Monkeys show? :)
Well, in another universe, time travel and the mechanics of it always gave Captain Janeway a major headache.
Awesome video. Earned a sub. The obvious solution is that the wormhole in the future is created after it is destroyed in the future and opens in the past where before it is destroyed in the past. It would have to be opened outside of Prea's lifespan to make her vanish. Then when it is created again it opens here path to the past which is then closed again creating the boot strap paradox.... thoughts if that is not your solution. I got excited and posed before i completed the video. So the wormhole would be there except for the period after it is closed in the past until is it opened in the far future and simotaneously open from when it is close in the past until it is closed in the future, really creating 2 time lines. One where it is open the entire time and one where it is closed for that short period. But if it is never close then it wouldn't need to be opened.... LOL.
Thank you Joseph! Really appreciate the comment and the sub :)
Sounds like "Paradox" from the movie "Millennium"
I hate time travel as a tool that changes a universe, like with the 2009 Star Trek. It can be enjoyable as a one shot, like in 'Yesterday's Enterprise', though.
It doesn't change a universe. It changes to another universe.
yeah , 'Yesterday's Enterprise , is Tomorrow's future ' .
now get jean luke picard to say that line, and it just might echo to bring forth future stabilization of continuance .
I really hate that they had to destroy the prime universe (hobus nova) to start the Abrams verse.
The story could easily be changed to leave prime alone (friendly factions in federation and star empire make peace and tear down the neutral zone. The enemy is furious - preparing for all out war since spock was responsible for killing his entire family during his time on the enterprise - and spock sacrifices himself as bait so the heroes can attack the slowly activating borg complex growing outside of romulan control).
@@sakisen Couldn't the new series simply take place in a mirror universe leaving the original, Prime Universe, alone? In this way the tv shows and movie would stay constant while the JJ Verse exists in its own universe separate from the rest of Trek.
@@sakisen the Prime Universe is not the same as the previous TV series, but an alternate one of that.
I really want The Orville get seasons 3,4,5 and more!
I wasn't confused till now.
The Pria episode is definitely interesting. Great video to inspire more thinking! Maybe Pria lies to the people she saves about why she is doing what she is doing so that after she saves them their timeline isn't as influenced. Btw, I got one of those sweet limited run shirts. I can't wait for it to show up! : ]
You are a badass :) thanks for the support and great comment :)
Well I still don't have an understanding but at least I have a headache now. lol
as Captain Janeway put it "Sometimes effect can preceed cause".
Hey Rockhound, I just watched that episode and boy do I wish we had used that clip of Janeway. Really good comment :)
@@ThePopcast you're welcome!
I'm so confused! Keep trying i need to get more confused in this day of Covid. My brain hurts!
dude . that skit gave me the 7 year itch .
now imma have to go back in time to make myself not watch the loop of a paradox that caused the
itch to begin with.
LOL
Thank you for making this video 👍
Time travel is real!
jeez, where have you been dude, did you just get back from the future or something
@@DadSkool Yes we've been time traveling :)
All of existence is like a crystal containing all demensions... Time travel paradoxes is like pieces of it falling apart. But crystals grow... Fixing themselves. Time fixes itself. 💯💯💯🧐
At the rate things are going, we'll have Discovery Season 6 before we ever get Orville Season 3. BTW great video.
Thanks for your great insight
Curious. A youtube ad came on right when Ms Theron's name was mentioned. It is for a South African meat dish , Biltong. C.T. is from South Africa.
As you mentioned we saw a future where the Kalon did not take over the universe. They never attack the earth. So in changing the timeline by stopping they are shipped from being taken into the future they created a timeline where they Kalon did in fact attack and kill millions of people. The ship would have survived the people would’ve lived in a Kalon would have never attacked, that would’ve been a small sacrifice of the crew of the Orville to save so many lives. But their own selfishness to stay in their time caused the death of hundreds of starships and thousands of people on each starships
Good job buddy!
1:34 There's Waldo 😁
POPcast guys have the best videos on youtube!
In the Original time travel story by HG Wells, the inventor created the machine so he could go back and save his fiance from dying only to find that no matter how many times he went into the past to save her she always died, every death he prevented only ended in her dying a different way. He found out why by traveling into the future where he learned about time paradoxes. He could not prevent the event that caused the creation of the machine that allowed him to go back in time to change it. Regardless of how it happened her death became a fixed point in the time stream. And the poor inventor now has to live with the memory of watching her die, not once, but dozens of times, some more horrible than the first. So far the Orville timeline seems to keep looping around the event that destroyed/closed the wormhole which should have been a fixed point in the time stream.
Pria made it clear that Ed would NOT remember her when she talks about how he will not have moved on from Kelly by having a relationship with her.
Love creative SF, and especially like the tip of the hat to Heinlein's SF story, "By His BootstrapS" (though I really prefer "... All You Zombies," in my view Heinlein's ultimate SF story.
I was just looking to see if anyone mentioned "All You Zombies ____". Glad to see someone remembered it.
That's probably the ultimate example of what is called a "bootstrap paradox" in this video.
Time travel paradoxes can really give one a brain dyfugalty, but having solved the grandfather paradox with something so simple and common I feel I can explain things just as well as The Popcast. The grandfather paradox solution? Gramma fooled around.
Great video. Good voice over over work. Anyway Star Trek used every for of time travel.. every kind of paradox during the 55 years it was on. Orville, i think, can do the same! and that means that one episode's type of time travel might be contradicted by another's but they are kind of intended to be separate.. people are so hung up on the serialization aspect but Orville is lightly serialized only and mainly episodic
Thanks Mercer! Appreciate the feedback!
@@ThePopcast your most welcome. I guess my point is that if I were to count all of Trek's time travel events and put them in the same line and try to figure out how it would together, what "vanishes' and what doesn't, what aspects of the timeline would work and what doens't it would be too complicated. Despite the shows taking place in a lightly serialized fashion, each time travel event was different and should be explored on its own .. ala Twilight Zone.. ad only when they tell us do they fold together (IE, Yar's Romulan daughter) so I am willing take the Orville's time travel on the samelevel
I thought of the paradox of them being out of history and unable to stop Isaac's race. I posited that because Isaac was lost with them and unable to return to his planet and give his report, that canceled or interrupted the plans of his race.
Priadestination Paradox?
This is why the multiverse must exist. Pria traveled backwards to a different timeline.
I love this show!
Watching Season Two now.
This makes my brain hurt, LOL.
I loved the Orville.
I like the theory that paradoxes don't exist except in our survival instinct that makes humans always belive that everything unknown is deleterious to the tribe. And since humanity currently only knows 5% of what the universe is.... We don't know enough to adopt paradoxes as a reason something can't happen.
Great name for channel! The oriville love it veruy very very much
Every time I see a modern incarnation of a Star Trek TV show, it makes me long even more for The Orville. We have been far too long without it. I hope the new version of it on Hulu is more episodic and less story arc, much like the original Star Trek. All good wishes! P.S. I Miss Halston! Do whatever you have to, but get her back, and maybe with less alien makeup. She's ridiculously beautiful without it.
I can't wait for season 3- I love this show
Is this home for the orville eh 🇨🇦 lol
Whoop Whoop. Seth's did a amazing job with the show
I understand now what’s going on! It’s just a television show!😋
You should name it An Orville Paradox since it was thought up by this show.
Time travel is a paradox in itself. Changing an event of the past could change the future in a way that no time travel happens to change the past negating the whole thing and also starting the paradox at the same time. Add a multiverse where both events could happen at the same time and you kinda (don't frie you're brain on that lol) fix the paradox.
Since mankind is constantly trying to get more stuff it's much more likely that time travel would change the past to create time travel instead of destroying it. It may delay when it comes about, but not destroy it from ever happening.
Thanks to this video, I just noticed that the shuttle was ECV-342-1 which makes sense that it wasn't one from the Orville (ECV-197) but now I need to watch again and see if there is a line of dialogue explaining what ship it came from.
You know, digging for details like Trekkers have always done with actual (non-Duhscovery, non-Pretendcard, non-Lowered Standards) Star Trek. 🙂
Unless The anomaly getting destroyed was part of the time line in the first place. Pria's time was not fully erased due to the fact that you could still visit that Pria if you go to the anomaly time period. she just can't go forward in the Orville's timeline. Thats why they remember her. Think of it as a loop on a start and end toy car track. Youu can have as many loops in a row as you want but it is tied to that part of the track only. Both timelines exists but only one is not tied by the anomaly.
Ouroboros. The Red Dwarf paradox. Lister takes his son (himself as an infant) back in time to become his own father. He creates an infinite loop that insures humankind will persist forever.
Done better, and earlier, in "All You Zombies ____" by Robert Heinlein.
After watching a couple of your time paradox videos (the other being about Guinan), I'm convinced the authors of Rick and Morty made the right choice and left time travel in the cardboard box
In times (no pun intended) like these I always refer to Star Trek: First Contact "You think in such three-dimensional terms." - Borg Queen
"Doc." Emment L. Brown: Your not thinking fourth dimensionally.
Marty: Yeah, I got a real problem with that.
Anyone notice that the Orville looks like the Rolling Stones logo when it's flying away?
11:11-the writers of DOCTOR WHO
Talk about paradoxes
I think the episode would have made more sense, had Pria not vanished. Destroying the wormhole is the same as destroying a time machine (sort of). Regardless of whether or not she was lying about the destruction of the ship, she would just stay in their time and things would just move forward until she died and then, eventually, the wormhole in her time is formed, she would be born, grow up, and later vanish into the wormhole... never to be seen again. It would have made even more sense if they hadn't used a wormhole but instead, used a time traveling spaceship.
It took _time_ for the events to catch up to the past. It's very possible that they only remember right now (that episode), but in a future episode they will have forgotten. She disappeared faster than they could forget because the future is steadily trickling to the past event. Changes to the past take time to catch up to the past.
A sort of causational loop in absentia.
Posted 3 days before Norm McDonalds death. What will they do on the show? A voice that is distinct and often copied. We miss him, but will we miss him on the Orville?
6:39 also, if they die in the dark matter storm, they would not be able to destroy the wormhole... so weird...
Did the personal transporter device vanish as well ?
Introduce the theory of a multiverse into your theories, and most paradoxes can be explained, as the out of dimension being is usually unaware of their shift, until a reveal
Bring back The Orville
I got all that when it aired, and the Kaylon episode aired. It was not unlike JMS's Babylon 5 but with snarky humor instead of messianic, host of angels metaphor.
Kirk, Spock and Edith Keylor was the predestination paradox, except in the unfilmed first draft, Kirk couldn't do it, and Spock had to. The reverse of WNMHGB pilot with Gary Mitchell. That was TOS time travel for all their episodes. They were always an active part of the past.
Now what happened to Lone Pine Marty at the end of the first film?
The P from timeline 1.. Does not affect the P from timeline 2 who didn't go back or was not born due to how much time will have passed. Single timeline still operates under this. Event in the future can change but the events you do in the past don't. You'd have to stop P from saving the ship.
What if its so confusing because we have not seen the all of the events yet? If future events course the crew to go back in time and convince themselves to accept the offer to jump to the future, it would complete the loop and result in the future that Pria grew up in.
I feel like this show should be going into season 4 or 5 at this point
Priya's plan doesn't make sense, but then I'd expect nothing less from a sci-fi parody.
"Why do they remember her?" When they destroyed the wormhole, I think it just sent her back to the future. It's possible that the assumption that she'd cease to exist was correct but from the point where the wormhole collapsed. As a result, Pria still would've gone to the past and interacted with the Orveille's crew. She vanished because she either went back to the future or she ceased to be from that point on.
I've never been fond of time travel episodes. The ones with some kind of paradox like that especially.
Good God, my head hurts.....
" I hate temporal mechanics."
It could be that the crew of the Orville temporarily moves out of the primary timeline and become super observers. They remember what happened because they are not in a paradox, but temporarily moved into a parallel timeline so their memories stay intact.. Just like Marty and Doc became super observers in BttF. Think of it like a train moving onto a siding to pass a slower train on the mainline. As super observers, they have extra knowledge that the rest of the universe does not have. Their extra memories come from a being on that temporal siding.
My theory is that when Pria couldn't come back, she came back earlier than the wormhole destruction and rigged the sensors on Orville so it looked like they destroyed the wormhole, but it was just an illusion. Paradox resolved.
Simple and to the point. It makes perfect sense, Thanks. I've had so many conversations about all the time-line stuff that I think I blew out all my neuron receptors and flooded my brain with spinal fluid. No Nerdathons for me , I won't subject my brain to it anymore. It's difficult when your not a Nerd.🤣😂🤣😂🤔🤔. So how are you? I'm just glad the show is back🍻
It should have been called a REVERSE PRIA'DESTINATION BOOTSTRAP PARADOX for the sake of this theory.
I hope Yaphet gets a heroes send off.
The only question I have is didn't Pria say they would have died? So in that case, did she come back specifically to cause their deaths so she can steal the ship to sell in the future? That's Effed up, yo.
That's where the paradox comes in. They had already died from her perspective so she wasn't "causing" their deaths.
@@drewd2 Ugh... Captain Janeway had the right idea: "I swore i'd never let myself get caught up in one of these godforsaken paradoxes. The future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me such a headache."
However if they died in her past relative life cone, then they died. If she returned to the past and saved them... Then she would remember that they historically disappeared (like Earhart)... Not died...but probably destroyed without evidence.
Her report would be they were MIA. Destroyed requires evidence of the destruction. Her description of where, when and how they were destroyed was SPECIFIC.
So she has to make a tangent, ONE TIME, trip back, not a predestination or bootstrap loop.
Sounds like the Millennium.
I think your broadcast was excellent . I would like your views if the Pria events had been in a multiverse situation . You could explore all options and choose the best one . Your thoughts please?
There may be other wormholes. Priya may have lied about the Orville being destroyed to excuse her stealing it. Maybe Priya comes from a time where the Kaylon won (blaming the Union for Isaac's disappearance), but the resistance formed and created an alliance to defeat them.
While I now think it would not be a satisfying story after the buildup, I once had imagined a different approach to resolve an increasing amount of intertwined time travel paradoxes:
At some point the Orville will try to repair the damage they caused in their attempt to prevent the destruction of biological life. Then they are contacted by n-th dimensional beings (or corporeal manifestations of the universe itself) explaining to them that cleanly repairing the damage is impossible. But because the universe favors continuity and the "expansion of life as a higher level of existence" it will simply declare the paradoxical focal point as "undefined" while manipulating the universal states before and after so it can continue to exist.
And the reason for the discussion with the Orville crew would be to persuadenthem to "believe" this is the solution (allowing the undefined focal point). Isaac would presume that this being wants them to accept it as God, something he will not as it would be completely illogical. With arguments like "life finds a way", "who said the universe had to be completely logical" and "a small sacrifice for the continuity of life" it would appeal to the biological beings but Isaac would exclude himself.
"You may believe in whatever you want. That is your privilege." "Then I will do so" the Orville is brought back and the destabilizing universe is healed.
My intention was that the world did not have to make complete sense and if everyone agreed to believe something, why shouldn't that be enough. But I guess such an approach would be too controversial. Ignoring reality, religious propaganda, etc.
This gave me a headache but that's normal when dealing with time travel paradoxes. But maybe this all creates this universe's Q (like from Star Trek). Did you confuse JP with this too. Keep up the good work. 🙂
The freejack problem