ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- Is Seth as good as everyone says he is, or better? Why is Moulder one of the best units in the game, and why isn't Franz? Should Vanessa be fighting at all, or should you use Tana instead?
I made an FE8 tier list quite a while ago for the Biggest Tier List, based on my knowledge of Sacred Stones. Ever since the community has learned a lot about FE8, so I'm going to update it along with a skilled Sacred Stones player, jumpy23!
jumpy23: / @jumpy23
jumpy23's Ephraim Route 0% LTC:
• Fire Emblem: The Sacre...
0:00 Intro
4:25 Tiering Starts - เกม
Disclaimer for the video: The rankings are taking into consideration both routes. Just in case anyone wonders some placements. That said, here are the character analysis timestamps:
~ S Tier ~
4:25 Seth
5:30 Dropping Vanessa to A Tier, still Seth
~ A Tier ~
14:55 Vanessa
24:15 Franz
33:52 Moulder
41:33 Tethys
44:35 *Disclaimer for the video
44:50 End of A Tier
~ B Tier ~
45:22 Tana
48:51 Cormag
54:44 Saleh
1:02:20 Kyle
Hope you guys have a great day^^
IMO, it'd probably have been better to have two tier lists side by side, one for Eirika route, one for Ephraim route. Trying to average their utility across both routes just kind of... produces meaningless data? Like, a casual glance at this tier list doesn't actually give you a better/accurate idea of how good/bad Cormag is in an efficient context, you have to listen to the whole video to catch that.
If you grind with amelia for 10 hours in the tower of valni,promote her twice,give her every stat booster in the game, and give her the legendary weapons,she is actually an ok unit
Just ok, nothing more!
Me uniorincally for 10 years
tr00, tr00 😂
Amelia is great, just make her a general.
Its weird as a kid my Amelia maxed out every single major stat as a general so I always enjoyed her a lot haha
1:02:50 Mekkah quietly moves Forde to E tier while moving other units around, then realizes his mistake and moves him to F
He couldn't afForde to make that mistake.
Forde might not be an F but he feels like an F
I'm not going to disagree with any of jumpy23's FE8 expertise, but I'll echo some of the criticisms of LTC-centric strategies. Once you cite specific LTC strategies to justify tiering for pretty much every character, the "well this is actually efficiency" argument doesn't hold. Efficiency has a nebulous definition, but if you declare in the most rigid fashion that efficiency = LTC +1 turn per chapter, that opens up a huge variety of different viable strategies and units. Like, it wouldn't be hard to train Franz at LTC +1 turn pace; he could definitely enable the chapter 8 4-turn, and right now Franz's position is a product of "well he's shit because he doesn't gain enough EXP at LTC pace which makes him progressively harder to train which makes him shit in the long run too."
(I went back to review my FE10 tier list revision contribution to make sure that I wasn't inadvertently setting a double standard, and what I said above was consistent with my approach there.)
I am gonna challenge this. You're not raising Franz to carry level stats at LTC+1 pace unless you sandbag Seth by giving Franz some boss kills. If you just want to promote him at 10/1, I already say that this is viable, although the c8 4 turn really isn't that reliable so I don't value it too highly over just getting a 5 turn. In the end, look where Franz ends up: behind fliers, warpers, dancer. I hardly called him shit, he's ahead of every combat unit who isn't Seth, and I strongly believe this is fair.
@@jumpy23 You can totally raise Franz to carry level stats at LTC +1 pace without giving him boss kills. LTC +1 pace is a super strict definition of efficiency, anyway. The criticism extends to beyond Franz. Why is there a 2 tier gap between Moulder and Natasha? Natasha can be "almost like this game's Pent or Niime" at LTC +1 pace. In fact there is no discernable difference between the two units at that point. Moulder's placement, and subsequently the tier gap, are predicated on the fact that when you wring out every possible turn in an FE8 LTC, you deny the ability for Natasha to become good, so she stays in bad unit tier. Not to mention that you're conferring all this value to him for being a 5 range Warp user that's meaningful in like, 2 maps? Like sure, he saves a bunch of turns in chapter 16. But it's not hard to get past the hallway just outside the reinforcement and enemy movement trigger zone without Warp.
Judging units by the number of turns that they save is a silly metric. You should know this already because it's a problem that's been discussed in Fishcord before. A lot of units save exactly 0 turns because they're just pretty good and exist in a part of the game where a bunch of competition exists. A handful of units save a massive number of turns simply due to a circumstance of their availability. And a bunch of turn saves are predicated on the player having used specific strategies before, during, and after the instance of turn save occurs.
@@DD151 To suggest that Moulder, a unit with almost zero investment, chip contributions throughout the entire game, and then finishes off by laying down turnsaves for 7 chapters in a row, falls under Edward Clause is laughable. As for why Nat is so far below him this might be some personal bias influence as I really hate staff grinding to be fair, but needing to staff grind mostly with Mend does reduce reliability and make maps harder as you shop for Mend targets. Not to mention steal a deployment slot from some other unit.
Re: Franz, there are like 5-6 maps by route where significant non-Seth combat is required. Are you suggesting that I significantly weight Franz's ability to replace Seth? Considering all of the ways he fails to adequately replace Seth (accuracy, crit avoid, cost to train, earlygame, etc) I don't think this is really worth considering. Or are you suggesting that I weight suboptimal strats like doing significant combat in chapters 17 / 19 / 20 / final-1 higher?
Rating combat units higher in FE8 feels like an underappreciation of just how much Seth warps the game. Not only is he easier to use than any other combat unit he's also better / more reliable than them too. You could argue that in more suboptimal play, other combat units see more use, but that cuts both ways -- in more suboptimal play, I can Seth solo the midgame and the only units who matter are the ones who move Seth around.
@@jumpy23 "To suggest that Moulder, a unit with almost zero investment,"
110 staff WEXP and / or 7 levels. Zero investment, if zero does not equal zero. Moulder requires being deployed in a lot of maps to reach Warp, lol.
"chip contributions throughout the entire game,"
I'm assuming this means healing and various staff-related contributions, because he isn't promoting to chip anything any time soon.
"and then finishes off by laying down turnsaves for 7 chapters in a row,"
But these are pretty irrelevant turn saves. You cited the Eph chapter 16 warp across the starting wall as an example. This skips a total of like, 4 unpromoted enemies. It doesn't make the map meaningfully easier, it just lowers the displayed turn count. Conversely, even the limited Warp availability in FE7 allows the player to skip, most of chapter 32 (though this is a team effort), and Pent can skip chapter 32x entirely, shaving not only the turn count but also the general approach to and the difficulty of the map.
Furthermore these turnsaves, even if we presume that they are broadly relevant, are predicated on the following:
- Natasha literally cannot do these turn saves (the only limiting factor is her staff rank which is easily trainable at even LTC +1 pace)
- Eirika Saleh will not be trained to A rank staves (you repeatedly downplayed his potential contribution by waving this off as a complete recruitment only thing)
- Artur is basically unused (Artur is really good at a slightly slower pace than minimum LTC)
So if you make all of the above 3 assumptions in an efficient playthrough, then yeah, sure, I guess Moulder is "just like Pent or Niime" because you don't have any other Warp users. But the only way that you can justify these assumptions is that the tier list player is using an inflexible and very optimized strategy, at which point this is not a tier list broadly ranking units in terms of their overall performance in the game, but rather a tier list of what units do in that particular strategy.
"falls under Edward Clause is laughable"
But early staff users do fall under Edward clause. In any given Fire Emblem game, there's a stretch of early game during which you'll have like 15 combat units and 1-2 staff users. In LTC contexts, those staff users are way more valuable than 13 of those combat units, purely by circumstance of availability.
"Or are you suggesting that I weight suboptimal strats like doing significant combat in chapters 17 / 19 / 20 / final-1 higher?"
Well yeah you have to weight suboptimal strats. I weighted suboptimal strats in the FE10 and FE12 tier list revisions as well. If you only weight optimal LTC strats, doesn't that validate all of this criticism that your tier list revisions are strictly LTC-focused? lol
@@DD151 By irrelevant turn saves you seem to mean "turn saves that don't make the game easier."
If losing turns to make the game easier / not make it harder is an acceptable basis for a tier list, then the tier list is basically s: seth, f: lol why are you using units who might actually die instead of just using seth? FE12 is a difficult game with punishing STRs and clearing it faster makes it easier (on many maps). FE8 is not. If you are tiering purely on minimizing effort then everything falls down. Why the fuck would I spend the mental effort (and risk low% crits) to train Vanessa or Franz or Artur to handle maps like Eirika 9 / 11 when I can just take a few more turns to send Seth to both parts of the map?
This whole bit where Mekkah makes a tier list, then invites someone more experienced just so they can tell him why he's wrong is very entertaining. I must've watched the 3 SoV vids dozens of times over. It's a really introspective time sink and I learned alot, especially regarding villager meta. Could we get more of these?
Oh i agree this is really entertaining and the SoV tier list made me rethink how i tackle the game and made me want to replay it. I think jumpy goes into LTC mode a bit too often for my taste but still really good video and insight by him
Actually, I don't see too much appeal in it. As of now, it feels more like another person presenting their personal tier list (which might be objectively better, but whatever). If it's more a monologue instead of a discussion, if it's just accepting the different opinion of the guest (due to politeness or not being that confident about your own expertise), then I don't see a reason to talk about or any relation to Mekkah's list. I don't mind a different list or more educated reasoning, but the way it is now, they could just present this different tier list and that's it.
Also,it doesn't make too much sense to have the characters sorted by different experts if you want to compare the characters of different games (i.e. merging the lists) in the end. Tiering is highly subjective anyway, ofc. there will be changes all of the times with that low level of discussion.
@@hyokina8276 That's actually a fantastic point to make. I agree and think Mekkah could stand to engage more with the guest and occasionally question their thinking. I liked the SoV one's specifically, but since then I've also noticed that every subsequent video has been more or less the guest going "okay this is the meta and here's why".
@@tyeus3673 Well, you are quite late to the discussion. But it's worse: Sometimes even the "here's why" is missing. Or it's more like "unit A is great in chapter B at full moon if you clap your hands three times but not if unit C has green hair". Overall, we got a LTC list, where jumpy advertised his personal playing style. That's why you will find a lot of criticism in the comments and it's a big problem for the SoV and FE8 lists. Meanwhile, the vibes of the more recent FE9 were way better and more enjoyable.
I would love a conquest tier list video with Gwimpage and/or Zoran (but preferably both), I think that’s by far the most interesting game to tier.
It's also one of the hardest to tier imo since units can be very flexible and turn out vastly depending on pairings and supports.
Knoll is like Bizarro-Oswin. Oswin is damn good, but only because he's in the most EP-heavy game in the franchise. If he was in a Fire Emblem that wasn't FE7 or FE8 he'd suck pretty bad. Knoll meanwhile would be much more valuable in a more difficult Fire Emblem like FE14C or FE12 or FE5, but because he's in FE8 most of the ways summons could stunt on the enemy army are all 'that's nice, but why didn't you just use a Seth'.
I would love to have a character capable of creating baits in FE6, and, as you said, Conquest, FE12 and FE5.
I think something that also helps Oswin is that he actually starts good, Gilliam isn't exactly great unlike Oswin, but definitely could be worse in any other game.
What do you mean by EP-heavy? I love the FE franchise, but I'm new to all of the slang lol
@@rolo_swirl1440 Enemy Phase Heavy. Because most of the combat actually happens in the Enemy Phase because most of the enemies are so fragile and weak that you can get away with it
Yeah but i can create Phantoms that eat Berserks, Sleeps, Purges and Eclipses. Thats cool af.
attack and dethrone franz
Super glad to see jumpy featured and can't wait to watch this through when I get the chance
That Trails in the Sky OST at the beggining... made my day, such a great game
Holy shit you got Jumpy! I loved watching his 0% ltc of ephraim route and his manner of commentary is really subtle and enjoyable. I hope you feature him on your channel more in the future.
Very interesting insight in how FE8 has developed! Looking forward to the next part.
Love the BGM. Trails is such a great game series :)
13: 20
This philosophy is one that deserves discussion, and is probably one that generates a lot of... interesting results. You can see it clearly with Jumpy23 emphasizing Vanessa's Rescue drops over her combat and how Jumpy23 put MOULDER THE BOULDER as top 3/4 units. The strategy of "PUT EVERYTHING INTO YOUR 1 TRUE GOD" is the sensible strategy because most FE maps are Defeat boss/Seize where you only need to kill 1 enemy (the boss) in rout maps you might suffer a little but most FE games hand you good combat units like Duessel for these maps. So you don't feel the pain nearly as much as you'd expect. Rout is also not that common of an objective anyway, Sacred stones has a grand total of 7 rout maps on eirika route. With the exception of Chapter 9, you'll be given a wide array of prepromotes that make these maps much easier than you'd think.
I may have pioneered this philosophy but as far as goodhart's law is concerned it does feel really weird. Tier lists end up looking like
S: The God
A: great Combat unit that can do things god can't (typically move/killing a specific enemy type)/God's support crew
B: Mediocre Jobbers who can be where god isn't in rout maps/Clear the way for the one true god
C: Jobbers with a few small duties
D: JObbers with 1-2 duties
E: jobbers with no duties
F: trash
This happened in this tier list and it happened pretty obviously in echoes where Celica ends up like
S: Leon (THE ONE TRUE GOD)
A: Mae/Boey (Great combat units who are great when leon sucks)/Genny (Leon's healer)
B: Deen/Saber(Kill dreads) Palla/Catria( High move Jobbers that can be places where leon can't reach)
C: Celica/Valbar (Shovebots/seraphim)
D: Est (Swap a few times)/Conrad (saunion a few things)/Atlas (iron bow chip)
E: Nomah/Jesse/Kamui
The main reason for this shift from my point of view is that players who value reliability need whatever the main unit is to actually do what people expect them to do. If they can't they get thrown into the Jobbers, Getting Haar to go Brrr for example requires a lot of BEXP to work, so units like boyd just fall by the wayside as Haar needs even more investment just to reach whatever speed benchmark you need him to. Reliability pilled players hate on Franz/Jill(fe10)/Luke (fe12)/Pal!jakob(CQ)/Mathilda (SOV) because players expect that the unit does things that they don't reliably do, and so the unit gets extremely hated. This shift hasn't been truely written down and ironed out and is mostly the result of social consensus. Which is unfortunate and would really be better if it were actually just spelled out better.
Yeah this philosophy was shown well in the recent iron man of Thracia that focused on reliability and invested extra heavily in Asbel by Lolo Sintonia
I think it's really good that you wrote out this philosophy and made it more explicit because that makes it much easier to critically examine. To me, this philosophy seems to be almost like draft racing, where you have your carry and maybe one or two other combat units and then everyone else's viability and usefulness is not based around combat but around how well they support the carry unit or do an odd job here and there. Importantly, for some units being a support for the carry and doing some combat are not mutually exclusive as in the case of Vanessa. While I think this holds up for upper levels of the tier list (e.g., Seth will always be S tier in FE8), I think it kind of falls apart in lower tiers depending on the context. For example, this holds up in draft racing contexts, LTCing, and contexts close to these things but doesn't hold up for settings where these are not the goal. To me, that's definitely ok but it might be helpful to make this more explicit. In contexts where draft racing or LTCing aren't the goals, then it seems unclear to me why someone would follow the philosophy of let me use just one unit for all combat and then create the rest of my strategies to support this unit. One could try to cite the idea of "efficiency" but as dondon151 pointed out above, this has a pretty nebulous definition and, as such, it's unclear what the parameters of "efficiency" would entail. Personally, I think this needs to be something that is ironed out, like you pointed out. This sort of philosophy begs the question of how viable are these units if you don't know these strategies. For example, in explaining the role of "Paladin2" in the video the explanation focused on the odd jobs that Paladin2 does (e.g., ferry items to Gerick, visit a village or chest etc.), which then makes Paladin2 simply a role that any unit could play if they fulfill that role. Importantly, Paladin2 is only useful within this context if someone knows those jobs that they can do. While I think this philosophy has some really cool and interesting implications for how units end up being ranked, it can also give the impression that this is the "correct" way to play the game which then carries the implicit implication that other ways to play the game are "memeing" or "less correct". Indeed, I think there were definitely parts of this video that felt very dismissive of other ways to play the game and the emphasis on turn counting made it seem like this was how efficiency should be measured but I think that criticism has already been leveled by others in a more coherent way than I could do. I don't think this was the intention, but I think being more explicit about the goals of the playthrough would benefit things.
I had an issue with this analysis method for a tier list, yah. It may be the optimal way to play the game in as few turns as possible... but that's not what a non-LTC tier list is for (and I think LTC tier lists are kinda nonsense anyway). I had to look up Goodharts law, but I think it's a good way to describe the problem here.
Tier lists are supposed to be general analysis. That's why tiers below B exist, to say "If you did want to use a suboptimal unit, here's C, D and E/F rank for how useful those units will be". Now some tier lists only give C/D/E slots to units that do still have a niche use (like poor units that are available early game without competition), but you get the point.
Jumpys tier list, on the other hand, assumes a strategy of using Seth as the core of your build (the Target) and sets the Measure as how much can they help Seth. In a regular tier-list, Franz would be high B, if not A. But because this tier list already assumes you're not only using Seth, but using him as the very core of your strategy, he gets lower ranked, because he doesn't help out that specific strategy.
In other words, your average tier-list will tell you who, if anyone, is S-Rank, but then list all other units independent of whether you use that unit or not. Jumpy tells you that Seth is S-Rank, and judges all other units directly dependent on that. It's not a general tier-list, but a tier-list for a specific strategy. Which is unfortunate, because I was hoping to find a general tier list for FE8, with some insightful analysis. Instead I got "Lol just use Seth" with a lot of insightful analysis... but I already knew that if I wanted the game to be easy I would use Seth, and after that point, insightful analysis isn't necessary for just playing and beating the game. This tier-list, then, ends up only really being useful for LTC. Which is a problem because this tier list was advertised as your generic FE "Efficiency AKA Don't grind or turtle" tier-list.
@@Sines314 well you could watch the first tier list
This was pretty cool! I really need to get into the efficiency scene, I’ve gotten a bit bored with casual play. I need something to shake it up a bit
I still prefer guides. I like playing Fire Emblem normally, and when it comes to a categorized list of some guide, I think Mekkah's guide format is a lot more helpful. Most players look at an ultra efficient ltc tier list wouldn't have the slightest clue what to do with it or how to execute it.
This game was the first fire emblem i ever played and i love it. Such amazing classes and gameplay. Also it shows unique classes that we never see before. Vanessa being a wyvern knight. Such a nice design. Couldn't find this class on any other game...
God you dont know how much i appreciate the trails in the sky music
Jumpy23's way of speaking reminds me of Ghast, valley dude vibes
Vanessa vs Tana is always interesting because Tana is a straight upgrade both growths and bases and arguably more charismatic, but comes later so Vanessa exists longer and can grow etc. So Tana’s dramatically better the more casual minded you go, while Vanessa is better with efficiency and enjoyed having a consensus gameplan that obsoletes Tana for the most part.
So I’m surprised Tana’s holding gameplay arguments over Vanessa in certain contexts after all time. And on Ephraim route even.
The real question is do you actually need Vanessa to kill something? Most cases bringing Seth to that place is better than her, and after chapter 9 if you want a fighting flier any boost to Vanessa is often better spent on Tana if your not rushing heavily. She might be quicker but it's less potent, reliable and overall typically less consistent later in the game.
Tanacis way better unless you're trying to clear the gamebvery fast.
I love you for using Trails in the Sky BGM.
God I can't believe you're still making content for this game. What a legend.
I really like the trails in the sky background music.
46:20 "Extremely Awful Dodgy Ranger"
That's it, that's my new band name.
About the Kyle vs Forde, in FEBuilder we can see that in the character editor Forde is level 5 and Kyle is level 6.
But, in the unit placer for chapter 8, Forde appears at level 6 while Kyle appears at level 5.
Forde gets one level with no extra growth while Kyle keeps the growth of his 6th level for free.
This was never a debate anyway. Kyle is just better Forde.
Seth is the real main character of Sacred Stones
Yoooo Trails in the Sky music, nice choice!
I don't personally call Franz "Seth 2", I personally always had called him "Mini Seth", he's basically the unit that gets the closest to be like Seth, though, with the obvious problem that he doesn't turn into Seth fast enough to be a primary target for fast games, where using units that are already strong (and fliers) it's just more.. efficient, heh.
Edit: Also, Moulder's C Staff is something that I always find funny, but never thought about the implications... it means that he naturally gets to A Staff without major grind and that is kind of... awesome o.o
kyle is better
Franz can't take three hits
@@dumbassdude8372idk if you're trolling but I always thought Kyle was the best knight in fe8. They're all pretty similar but Kyle sports the only cav who can exceed Seth in con. Basically he can use javs as a cav with less of a detriment as his cohorts. He also gets a free chapter.
55:08
The epic song from this beautiful game used for the background music starts.
Great music at the beginning of video! Kiseki forever
Absolutely love fe8 and hearing people discuss it. I know it's not a favorite to many, but I enjoy every run of it (except ch5x, ch9 Ephraim, and ch14 Eirika)
Love the video, just looking for some clarification regarding the criteria of the placements.
How much does this tier list require knowledge of the specific strategies used in an efficiency playthrough to hold up? A lot of the discussion seemed very oriented around specific executions such as when talking about Franz on Chapter 13, as an example (Not a complaint, it was incredibly interesting to hear about).
Would there be any major shifts if an experienced/skilled FE Player who did not have knowledge of specific strategies attempted an efficient playthrough?
I think in most of your previous tier lists, there was more of a balance between how much easier a unit made the game if you did use them, and how efficient they were to use. Is it fair to say this one is more geared towards the efficiency end of the spectrum, with units who can make the game a lot easier but with less of an efficiency impact taking a hit? Or is it just a case of "The easiest and most efficient way to beat the game is to just use Seth to run through everything, and make use of the units who support him".
Either way, really enjoyed the exploration in to the more efficiency oriented side of FE8, was a very entertaining watch.
I'm seeing a lot of these similar questions / comments in the youtube comments here and this is definitely the most detailed phrasing of it so I'm going to hopefully address everyone's thoughts here:
> How much does this tier list require knowledge of the specific strategies used in an efficiency playthrough to hold up? Would there be any major shifts if an experienced/skilled FE Player who did not have knowledge of specific strategies attempted an efficient playthrough?
I don't think that most of the strategies discussed here are very unintuitive. It's a lot of "use a flier to cross a gap," "send a mobile weak unit to visit a village" that kind of stuff lol. There are a few more obscure things, like the fact that the game's Est unit is actually a good boss killer and worth using, but I would expect that a fairly experienced player would intuit most of what we discuss here. Like you said, things like "Franz vs the one thunder mage in c13" sound oddly specific, but when you see Gerik join with nothing but a Steel Blade I do think the natural inclination is going to be to send Paladin2 over there to help him out, and then naturally you will fight the mage with them.
> Is it fair to say this one is more geared towards the efficiency end of the spectrum, with units who can make the game a lot easier but with less of an efficiency impact taking a hit? Or is it just a case of "The easiest and most efficient way to beat the game is to just use Seth to run through everything, and make use of the units who support him".
I'm definitely a turns-minded player and I think that came through here maybe a bit more than it did with Peeved's SoV review but I don't think I was more weighted toward turns than dondon's tier list reviews. I definitely reference LTCs a lot but more as recorded example playthroughs that you can look into. I didn't actually give any weight to unreliable LTC strategies when reshaping this tier list. I probably could have been clearer about that in the recording since it seems like a lot of people are saying I talk about LTCs too much (fair haha)
As for ease-of-use concerns, I actually do care about ease of use and this is why I don't value say Artur as much as some others do, I think it's super difficult to maximize his potential. On the flipside there are super "idiot-proof" units (Duessel and Gerik) who I could have been nicer to because of their ease of use but this is where the second half of your question comes into play. The strategy I'm recommending is to use these guys less and Seth more, and Seth is equally as idiot-proof as they are. If you had to train some niche difficult unit to do Gerik's job slightly better that would be one thing, but it's just Seth so...
@@jumpy23 Thank you for the detailed response and clarification, I really appreciate it!
Agreed, it makes this hard to listen to unless you've like watched or care about LTC. I think the average player just full clears objectives and goes at a medium pace.
Ask yourself if those are the strategies you self discovered and used the first couple times you played this game.@@jumpy23
was actually able to guess who the guest would be beforehand, I'm officially irredeemably a nerd
nice to see moulder the boulder stay that high up
I approve with Trails in the sky music
Ive been wanting to make videos like this for a bit, might do that next
Got to love how all my favorites are ranked the lowest (those being l'arachel, ewan, amelia), but jokes aside great video!
Truly skilled players should try to win with their favorites!
It's just that the 3 rookies, lords colm and knol a My favorites in fe8
At 1st glance seeing Innes in D was rough his class sucks but silver bow and promoted with good bases. Niemi gets wall chip she deserves one more tier.
This video is really mislabeled. It's advertised as a review of an old generic tier list of Mekkahs, but it ends up turning into an LTC analysis of units based off of a specific very Seth-oriented strategy. Which ends up being so specific you wonder why even bother with tiers. As he says later on "S tier is Seth. A-tier is units that move Seth around the map. B-tier is units that fill in for Seth because Seth can't be two places at once." At which point... why not just use the tier-list generator to just label them that? You're not ranking units so much as you are clarifying what roles they play in the strategy.
I found the video interesting, but it's like going to a pizza restaurant and being served a really nice sundae. Which is nice, but I was really craving that pizza.
Yeah, I clicked on this video thinking it would be tiering the units in regards to their performance in a casual playthrough, and by the look of the title and thumbnail I don't think you could blame me for thinking that.
Yo it's jumpy the boy! So excited that he gets to be on this one. His sacred stones ltc 0% Growths was amazing
Thank you so much!
Am I hearing Trails in the Sky music? Nice
My favorite part of these videos is looking up the sora no kiseki ost to add yet another song to my playlist
(it's sewers this time)
I'm so thankful that even with the changes to the FE8 meta, Vanessa is still the second best unit in the game overall. Vanessa is actually my FE8 waifu.
Vanessa is LTC players Amelia. She doesn't have strength and bulk issues if you feed here 3 energy wings and 4 bulk boosters. Definitely better than Tana.
Top tier music choice. Couldn't have picked something better
omg jumpy
Are you still going to make the New Mystery of the Emblem character guide?
I'll take a look to see if it's a vid worth making. I feel like almost anyone who makes their way to New Mystery knows what to do cause it's kind of an obscure FE.
38:34 Dondon did use Saint's Staff in Chapter 23 of FE6
Not sure which playthrough this is, but in his FE6 0% growths playthrough, he also uses it once on ch22 to patch up Douglas + Miledy for the heroes in the top left and top right respectively. FE6 maps are huge, so the Saint's Staff is useful on maps with multiple combat objectives.
beamcrash (the GOAT LTC imo) uses it too
Fairly sure dondon broke the Saint's Staff. I know he used it in C22 to get Melady ready to fight a hero, and at least once in C24 to heal up after fighting a bunch of manaketes.
Where's that gameplay in the bottom right from? Are there videos of that run, in case I want to check it out?
It's just a run I did for these vids specifically, it's not on TH-cam anywhere else.
@@Mekkkah ah, ok. That kinda sucks, I'd love to watch the full run. 😍
I'm glad best girl Tanahashi is top of B Tier. Hopefully someway in the future is found to make her A.
GO ACE
My one issue with this is that the main focus of the discussion seems to be about LTC instead of just efficient play.
That’s A-ok if you want to discuss LTC but I think this tier list needs a bigger disclaimer if LTC runs are the main focus of how you order this list.
Maybe there is a confusion of terms here. To me, LTC means going fast at the expense of reliability, while efficiency means going fast reliably. In that sense I don't care about LTC, I am only arguing about efficiency.
But I get the feeling that part of the community thinks caring about turns at all is LTC, and efficiency is just beating the game with as little brain effort as possible. In which case I guess I am discussing LTC.
@@jumpy23 I think that 2nd part would be why I am viewing the back and forth you had with Mekkah was related to saving turns.
I think efficient just means trying to beat the game at a reasonable pace and not necessarily trying to hyper focus on turn counts. Only cases where I think it matters is LTC or games that have a ranking system where turn count matter. For efficient I view it as not turtling like trying to spend a chapter to grind out Amelia to level 10 where you turtle the whole chapter fighting one unit at a time just baiting enemies into attacking you.
If that isn’t your intention that’s fine I just think a lot of the talk with turn count makes me think a lot of the focus is on LTC.
looking at tier list thinking "this looks about like i'd expect it to look from mekkah" then bam see a flyer in E tier and immediate flabberghastment ensues
Nice
14:55 the gushing about Seth ends 😂
34:21 "He's almost like this games Pent or Niime."
"No, no he's not!"
I don't know why, but this moment was hilarious for me... I started crying...
Hi, was this an april fools video? Because it was not posted on april 1.
All this talk of warp is triggering memories of when my phantom stole the warp staff in my Ephraim Hard Mode Iron Man.
This was the first FE game I ever played
What's your favourite FE8 Character. For me it's Vanessa. Because I like her personality. My Second favourite is Lute.
You know what i like about this. I try to attempt to bench all characters at B or above S if possible. Beating the game with lowtiers is a more fun challenge for me.
This is a really interesting video. To me, it begs the question: how flexible are LTC strategies? It seems like the units are being ranked according to their utility for a single strategy to LTC fe8, and similar strategies which are just some small epsilon change to the previous "winning" strategy. I'm wondering if more strategies will become viable, resulting in a very different list. It seems feasible that the game may return to something similar to Mekkah's original list as more strategies get developed...or LTC is basically solved already character-wise.
If this is true what you predict - and I tend to support this as well -, this means that the current list is kind of bad. Tier lists and also efficiency tier lists like this one should *not* be about strict LTCing. As of this and the SoV list, it felt more like "main carry good, support ok, rest bad" - and also presented like a strict fact. Which gives overrated chars like Moulder or underrated ones like Franz.
In the end it feels more like personal playing style or experience (namely by the rules you give yourself by strict LTCing) instead of general experience. And the "expert's" list feels worse than Mekkah's initial suggestion.
Pound for pound, who do you think is the best pegasus knight of the fire emblem gba games?
My go-to team. Ewan druid , Ross berserker, Joshua sword master , Gerik Hero , Arthur Bishop , Molder Bishop , Cormag Wym Lord finish up with the prince , Seth and dussel All units leveled 20, then 20, again
Seth with a few Stat boosts can take on swarms of enemies
I totally get moulder being amazing for efficiency and such. But for more casual people that's not always warping and playing slower, would moulder still be where he is now? It was brought up of the great staff for restore and torch. Does his slayer get any points?
I don't think Moulder is promoting in time to make use of slayer much even on a casual pace, plus his extremely low luck makes using him as a combat bishop annoying because you can get crit easily. if you straight up are skipping the warp staff I would definitely not have him in A tier, but also if you skip the warp staff, so many lategame chapters become a total pain lol
I would still credit Moulder for utility in a similar way to Saleh, with like random Restores/Barriers that can be helpful. But I reckon he'd drop a bit, yeah. A lot of the game he's just self improving.
In my most reason playthrough, my Amelia got super blessed. Even without Valni'ing her, she ended up better than Franz by Gehanna which was just ridiculous.
Mekkah was wrong?!
My eyes were glazing over until y'all talked about Mauthe Doog. It's pronounced Mod-day Doo! Or there abouts.
tfw I thought kid characters were like magic karp so if you believe hard enough you get the best team after as they turn into gyrados
I literally had 5/6 of F tier list in my core team, I only had Tethys for "good characters", I benched Seth lol
other members I had were Lute, Arthur, Tana and Eirka,Ephrem together
I feel like the issue is this assumes most players are playing LTC or speedrunning the game. You should do a tier list with the context is the player is 20/20 each character but not capping stats with stat boosters.
Almost every character is S tier in the context of assuming 20/20 unless you are talking creature campaign
As someone who has cleared the game with just cormag all I can say is you are wrong. Cormag gets his own God tier.
I wholeheartedly agree that Seth is s all hail Seth the one and only god
He deserves his own tier)
I play casually, and grind a little bit. Wats funny is nemi is F tire on ur their list but my nemi in my game is amazing she's a ranger at lvl 5 with 12 str 13 def 15 res and 16 spe, she's my most reliable unit at the moment (also Seth is great but u don't need to lvl him like crazy to be good) but I'm just a casual player so take my word with a grain of salt if u want.
On my first FE8 Eirika playthrough I got a terrible magic-screwed Moulder, I think he had gained something like 3 magic by endgame, not including promotion.
My man that's not a magic screwed Moulder, that's just Moulder haha
@@jumpy23 Ok I'll have to watch the video again to get it, but is his high rating then really just down to his starting staff rank? What about if I'm not LTCing and so don't really need to warp?
Is it really that much more important that the extra healing that you would be able to do with Saleh or sage Artur/Lute at that point in the game?
Sorry if it's a dumb question but I'm new to FE and I'm not that knowledgeable about the meta.
@@TheCelt93 Yeah, it's really all about that staff rank. To illustrate one example of why I care about Warp so much, look at Ephraim route Chapter 16 and the path to the throne with vs without warp. Warp isn't just for LTC, it makes maps less painful: imagine getting crit by one of those swordmasters and having to redo that super long circuitous walk to the throne.
In the mid to lategame there are very few places where staff healing is important. The game hands you a glut of Elixirs and literally no Physics or Fortifies unless you visit the secret shop :x So I don't see Saleh as a healer much at all, let alone Moulder.
@@jumpy23 but if i'd think maps are painful i wouldn't play Fire Emblem in the first place. Warpskip outside of dedicated challenge runs seems the definition of "given the chance, players will optimize the fun out of a game".Either that or a map design failure. And then there is Kaga... "i made this map bad on purpose, because the intended strategy is to use the warp staff".
@@jumpy23 Thanks for the context, something else though that confuses me about warp strats; by skipping clearing a chapter and therefore not gaining the exp, are you not making yourself more dependent on warping in future chapters? Or are the enemy levels and late game pre-promotes enough to allow you to skip a level?
This video is less a "Tier list review by expert" and more like "The viewers get lectured by some guy about strategies for diet LTC runs that just circle-jerk the one unit we already knew was good." And if that's really the state of the FE8 meta right now then the FE8 meta sounds dreadfully boring.
Can understand this impression because I got turned off by eliteism too but the points they were making were points I always used to get berated on like saying Kyle and Moulder were great units. Def recommend LTC runs because they're fascinating to watch. The planning and game knowledge is impressive. There's just something about mastering a small domain and navigating it well.
@@ThatGuyThai LTC runs are cool and all but saying Seth is a god-tier unit that stomps the entire game around him is the single coldest take in all of Fire Emblem discourse. Frankly the game is more interesting when you're not using Seth.
@@cartooncritic7045 I agree that the game is a lot more fun after banning Seth but this video wasn't about hot takes.
@@ThatGuyThai I wasn’t going into a Tier List video for hot takes. Eight months ago I clicked on these videos expecting someone to add interesting insight to a game that had apparently recently had a big meta shift, only to find out that said “shift” is the same old braindead strategy of “throw Seth at everything” that the community already knew was true for 18 fucking years. Forgive me if I and many others were not impressed with the results even if the LTC strats being discussed seemed interesting in the context of an LTC.
@@cartooncritic7045I agree for the most part. I guess it’s as much a commentary on Seth’s design in this game as it is what people find to be enjoyable on multiple play throughs. I think the video title should have just been LTC tier list and no one would have a problem with it. Also I realize this video came out a year ago 😅
Why is Neimi F?
Because A) FE8 is one of the more Enemy Phase-heavy games in the franchise, with even units like Eirika capable of taking on multiple combat rounds between turns. and B) her strength base is so awful that the occasions where she COULD be useful requires grinding. The only map I think Neimi could be useful in is the first map of Eirika route; there are enough Pegasus knights that Innes can't take them on by himself. Though, embarrassingly, instant-promoted Ranger Gerik on Eirika route does way better at filling flyers full of holes than a trained (but non-grinded) Neimi. CH15 has a buttload of Wyvern Riders in it but by then you have Innes and Saleh.
Archers just aren’t good in the GBA games to begin with and Neimi’s base STR is really really bad
someone help, how can the meta shift? it's not like it gets patches
People are still learning new and better strategies to this day, despite thr games age. What strategies were considered the most reliable and efficient may be rendered obsolete tomorrow because someone looked at the game with a different mindset.
The meta is not the mathematical truth of a game, it's just the CURRENT understanding of the mathematical truth.
Men spend years figuring out what I did as a child at 8, Seth can solo the game. This tho isn't an fe8 tier list, it's an LTC explanation for fe8 that boils down unit purpose to how can I move Seth into the boss faster?
@@coldeed hey man, it took them nearly two decades to realize Moulder is OP. As a kid his stash gave it away. Like cmon, Elfire use on promotion? Big heal stats?
Sooner or later they'll realize that its actually healing and generating exp from nothing, that is actually broken. It might not be the most efficient ltc strategy but its definitely used in LTC all the time because rank matters.
Erika is one of the most broken characters in the game under this lens. You can keep her at level 1, and upon rejoining she's ready to promote. That's 10 levels. If you had an item that gave 10 levels to someone, for free, would you use it?
@@ThatGuyThai believe me, it's the silly thing of people overestimating how good Bishop is. Sure Slayer is really good if you're planning on doing a lot of post game content where nearly 100% of the shit you're dealing with is all going to be monsters.
In reality there's only like one or two chapters in the middle of the game in which that makes a bigger impact. Considering you get four special weapons in too personal ones by like chapter 16 that potentially give you six characters with Slayer built into gear in a game where you don't really need Slayer to one round monsters more often than not, it is a disgustingly over-emphasized aspect. That being said people do point out that you do get more staff XP from switching to Bishop instead of switching to sage for both of the characters that can be a bishop. But once again that's really only information that's useful if you're worried about ltcing, because if your going for iron Man and don't care about turn count, more options and weapon triangle can potentially be better, and overall anima tomes are a lot better than light tones.
Often times though if you're talking to someone that's heavily influenced by LTC equals playing well, they will overestimate the drawback of a character growing somewhat slower, because this can literally be mitigated by just giving them a little bit of attention doing something that doesn't really hinder you. Like training up any of the trainees by trapping an Archer or two that doesn't really threaten your stronger units anyway. Being able to get a unit that will grow 10 levels and get a promotion bonus within the chapter that they join in less than 5 minutes is not something that is all that difficult to do that brings them more so in par and online with other characters. But for some reason clever use of tactics where you make a weak unit and grow quickly by putting it in an incredibly safe situation in which you can essentially freely generate XP despite the week start it has is for some reason looked down upon by the community. I mean yeah it's grinding, what did you expect on a character that has a 50 level deficit, in a game where chapter one gives you a character that functionally by comparison is 30 levels ahead of them, which also causes those weaker units to grow incredibly quickly in comparison. It will take a lot longer for Seth to get five levels then it will for Ross to get 15.
I mean sure starting good is better than becoming good, but it's something that gets really overestimated for very mediocre characters.
S for Seth
Jumpy the fe8 truther
I member checking a tierlist on whos worth investing in, and my Vanessa turned out so fucking bad I stopped using her
You too suffer from one skill/speed level ups?
I know the only use they want to give vanessa ia to move Seth...
But i really can never train her cause she grows so bad...
I dont know, i like horse...
Horse go fast.
More horse go faster.
And i dont know if im just unlucky but i always have trouble actually training Vanessa.
Also I wrecked Valtyr with Cormag.
420 likes. Nice. 😎 #ThisGuy
55:20 - Oh hey, the Last Promise Music*. I always knew that Mekkah was super-based.
* I know it's not from TLP, just humor me, please.
Maybe I should play some FE8 again... playing FEH most of the time just makes my heart ache when i see what they did to Seth 😑
Idk my level 10 seth just dies to a few enemies where as I can just full move genera amelia forward who is also level 10 and she just takes like 6-7 dmg and everything has like 10-20 hit on her because of her luck and speed. No stat items playthrough
I mean, every unit is good if you Grind on the Tower of Valni, but just Base... even from there i disagree with certain units, for example Joshua should be higher, Kyle lower... but i mean, i see your points, Mekkah, and i like this tier list.
Seth at the top? Proper shocker, that one.
Colm D i said S 🤣🤣❤️
wouldnt joshua, gerik, and tana be a rank. I mean tana can access to wyvern knight class which can pierce. joshua, gerik, and dussel are pretty good units. and dozla can be b or mabe low rank a cause hes a beserker lol
This Tier is about finishing the game faster...
So just using Seth and things that can support Seth.
Vanessa isnt even high cause she battles. She is just high cause she moves Seth.
6 movement is crippling for ltc and rta speedruns.
the three questions you ask yourself for units are:
1) can the unit move?
2)can the unit move others?
3)can the unit bosskill?
thus, flying, high movement and staff usage are highest valued, and usually one unit that does flying, mounted or warping also does boss killing.
@@florianschulz3027 yea I agree u guys. and seth for sure is s cause of promoted unit that has good base and growths. and good weapons to start out with and he can easily solo the game and can get u to level 20 really easily even with arena and monster tower.
dude i already let Vannesa died 😢
I feel like the revisions apply for an LTC context but not so sure about efficiency
Funnily enough, I feel like efficiency is the driver behind most of these revisions. f.ex. drop Franz, he's less reliable than just using Seth for everything. Or drop Artur and raise Moulder, he's a less reliable and harder to use warper who doesn't reliably get enough Magic to be better than Moulder anyway. Perhaps I communicated this poorly by frequently referencing LTCs as my examples lol
@@jumpy23 Oh thanks for responding! Yeah I see what you mean. TBH FE8 with Seth is so easy that it feels like Seth's greatness makes the relative difference between most other units really small. So although Artur is better than Moulder, it's not by a relatively huge margin in an efficiency context. That's why I was figuring you were thinking in LTC terms
Counter point to your Ewan is bad comment at the beginning of the video. It's really easy to have him a level 1 shaman after his join chapter by giving him an Archer or two during the chapter so he can stand up to the druids without dying. 10 relatively quick levels later as the late game has tons of xp now he's a summoner. 2 summoners is always better than 1
Also yeah Seth good but like baiting shadow shot on phantoms will always be my preferred method, saves barrier pure water and pray you don't get stoned hassle
2 Summoners is better on paper, but you only really need one for the utility it provides. Also, Ewan is bad in the context of an efficient playthrough. Feeding him kills when you're trying to beat a map quickly is the antithesis of efficient play. If your argument is to feed him kills so he can quickly get to Druid, then how is that any different from using the Tower of Valni?
@@tyeus3673 that's not efficiency, that's ltc'ing. An efficient playthrough should be one where you play the maps and not have to struggle. Also what is that giving him chapter kills Is practically the same as using tower of valni. That's like saying giving Seth any XP is just the same as using the tower of valni. Ewans getting in chapter kills not grinding?
LTC'ing and efficiency is two different things. I can efficiently rout any seize map if I want to
Bro, I'm sorry but Vanessa is still S tier. Flier utility is just that good. Plus giving her the early game energy ring completely fixes her combat too. FE8 enemies are weak enough that that's all she needs.
This guy is passing off what he does as mandatory "you NEED to use this character with this item on this chapter". You don't NEED to do anything in this game. Some things are just more optimal than others. Using Seth as your only combat unit for example is just boring. Also Tana with training is better than Vanessa. Unless you're putting time constraints on yourself.
It's funny how Seth is only outclassed by the two lords regarding growths!
The two Lords, Tethys, and Myrrh.
I think this is the only FE tier list I've seen where a dancer wasn't in the top tier.
Every playthrough I go through, I always max Ross for Pirate. I do hate myself.......
Tana is just better, cause she has better bases and better growths and the fact that you don’t get a master or Elysian whip before you get Tana means that Vanessa being earlier doesn’t matter.
Vanessa can have enough level to use it, Tana no
1) Natasha and moulder shouldn't be away from each other, both do the same thing which is healing until you get warp ch16, her lower magic doesn't matter because on avg lvl 1 bishop both have 8 mag, and even at base 2 mag difference isn't a big deal because both can use mend, and for warping it's literally 1 square difference, natasha starts worse but has the potential to gain more mag while moulder has better combat after promo, BOTH can reach A rank before ch16 because torch spam is a thing and promotion gives +40 wexp for both alongside the occasional healing, EVEN then i wouldn't put either above C or B because what they do is literally being a healer until ch16 where you get warp and saleh who has 16 mag unlike thier avg 9-10 mag, they're nothing special
The main issue with Natasha is her base D staff rank. It's really annoying to get natasha to A staves, meanwhile moulder does it very easily.
As gordon says, the real difference between Natasha and Moulder is staff rank. I don't think that they are even close to equivalent in terms of how quickly they reach A rank. With Moulder, it's really easy; with Natasha, you have to spam staves super hard as much as possible and still can't get there by chapter 16 on 0% LTC pace. I may have penalized her a bit too hard in comparison to Moulder in hindsight but Moulder's definitely noticeably better.
@@ussgordoncaptain i like how you ignored the three important facts that i mentioned :-
1) promotion gives 40 Wexp, which means she needs to get to B+ and promote
2) you literally have 11 chapters to do so
3) torch spam in ch11 ( 5 wexp per use, basically a whole rank after you fully use it ) ALONGSIDE occasional healing
" Moulder does it very easily "
All what moulder has is literally 40 wexp over her and 3 maps of availability, the former is not a big deal because lol ch16 is late + promoting still gives 40 wexp, the latter is literally 3 maps
@@jumpy23 well here's the problem with your argument, you use LTCs as a point which is moot because in LTC you beat maps in 2-4 turns in general which obviously isn't fair to rank units
@@mysmallnoman I probably didn't explain my assumption clearly enough: I am not rating Natasha based on pure LTC because it's unreliable, but I do care about going reliably fast. Saying "natasha doesn't make it on LTC pace" was just to illustrate that her staff rank is pretty tight; even if you can make it playing on an efficient pace (probably somewhere around 90-100 turns) you are having to deploy her on like every map, use rescue droppers to get her in position to use Mend sometimes, etc, and these things harm reliability as well as just plain make the game harder.