Bayonetta is a kind of character that I don't mind being Kamiya's "waifu" because beyond her game just being good, she also a character that other people like! The big issue with Toryiama pushing Lightning is that _nobody fucking likes Lightning except him!_
@bideo gaems Or that the poll was rigged. I have a feeling this stuff happens more than people think. It's sort of like wrestling...the company is going to "push" who they want to be popular, and the character they want to be popular is whoever is in a game currently being sold. If they had the poll around the time FF15 came out I'm pretty sure Noctis would be the most popular Final Fantasy character. I'm pretty sure when FF7 remake comes out, Cloud will once again be the most popular final fantasy protagonist ever (although Square probably won't have to rig the numbers for him).
I shut the game off the first time I heard it. If that's something I'm gonna be surprised with every few times I win a fight, I would have punched my tv
"People who played Final Fantasy VI back in the day, like me, some of them don't play games anymore, some of them are dead, some of them don't remember." - Patrick Boivin, 2014
Cloud's character in the original FF7 felt really genuine. I related to his whole "creating my own personality to become stronger, but that's not reality" kind of thing. Flawed, but strong enough to keep moving, and is even silly at times. And yeah he was still blaming himself about Aerith's death in Advent Children, but when I went back to the original and watched Advent Children again, he was WAYYYYYYYY too mopey. Again, I understand his reasons, but still.
Advent Children fucked Cloud over dialing up the emo wangst, cauze they think it makes him hot/interesting/tragic when it just makes him look like a misery guts. Crisis Core and Kingdom continued the emo style with him.
Its 2022 and it took FFVII Remake to remind people that single player Final Fantasy could be made and not be botched like 15 was. Hoping 16 comes out good
@@kap1618 and what was that supposed to mean? Look up the early concept for 15. The one where Norris and luna were supposed to be rivals for the position of god's representative.
@@altosforteaquax5083 Yeah, I know, but they rebranded 15 from vs 13 because the 13 brand would have been the kiss of death for that game. All the changes that needed to be made to 15 could have been avoided if 15 was allowed to be its own thing instead of yet another 13 sequal.
That opening discussion about "what happened, the Toriyama sphere was rolling and couldn't be stopped" is fascinating now that we really do have evidence of a small handful of prominent Japanese devs utterly massacring games during seventh-gen (and sometimes before that). Combined with Lightning Returns clearly beginning life as a Valkyrie Profile reboot and being reskinned as Final Fantasy 13, yeah, a lot of that game's problems came from directorial and executive decisions. Interesting stuff.
Because they can't give them emotions without making them cry and look weak, I guess? Heck if I know. It's weird because it's almost sort-of like why we thought the 90s cool action hero thing was a strong character and kept doing it even though it only worked like a handful of times.
1Kenny30 Wouldn't say they were trying to make a strong character, just a complex one. They wouldn't have break down moments otherwise. There are very strong female characters but they are mostly found in shoujo stuff. There are some strong one in shonen. As dumb as it sounds Kaminashi in Keijo's manga is very high on the list. Her personality is bulletproof.
It's about how they believe standing out and being brazen as totally taboo. For them, they value a woman who would have great strength but she doesn't display it where it can be easily seen. Where as the outside image is one of calm, and politeness. Inside they're determined and ready to defend what's hers, and using mostly her wits if she can. It's why in movies set in samurai times and the like, you see a lot of powerful women not even standing. I can remember one Kurosawa flick in particular where a woman makes her final play at revenge and when she's caught, she's just kneeling down with a resolute look on her face. Even right up to when the man she got revenge on walks up and cuts her down, she doesn't acknowledge him directly. So I imagine an exaggerated version of that is a woman who doesn't react to anything, but isn't at all weak. No emotion at all. It makes her mysterious and desirable to find her subtleties and motivation because a woman like that totally would blend in and not be the nail sticking up to be hammered down, but you know this nail is what's holding everything together. ...but that's just one Westerner's opinion.
@@li-limandragon9287 7 Remake was good to great (obviously 15 lost him cause of kh3 and FF7R). The man is a good director but needs a good group around him to keep him in check. 7 Remake combat is so much better than 15 which is what I really cared about.
IDK man, Nomura's actually doing pretty well all things considered.(it's a bit sad that for a time, he was considered Square's ONLY competent director.)
@@anthonychessar7179 kh2 was gud, but i have no real love for disney so i stopped caring in the wait for 3 and FF7 remake is padded poorly written "comp of ff7" garbo
The real shitty thing is that Lightning Returns has the same basic premise as Valkyrie Profile. I haven't even played Valkyrie Profile and somehow it still makes me hate Lightning Returns even more.
No Woolie, you meant to say "What is the dark sacrament of cybernetics and AI technology advancement, the overlord of all computing power and electronic devices John Carmack going to do now?"
I still can't get over Liam saying he platniumed the game, even though he said it was fine. I would think one would complete everything in a game that they loved/enjoyed, not just a game that was just fine
I don't remember all the key points of the story of Lightning Returns but what if the guy that's controlling on lightning and all them is just an analog for that guy who made the 13 series
Which Sadness Trilogy is worse. FF13, 13-2 and Lighting Returns, OR the David Cage trilogy (I personally say FF specifically because of the length of the games). For perspective, I have played every FF games, minus the MMO's, and the entire Cage trilogy.
Sam Lucas Detroit? don't tell me that there's another DC game that I didn't know about I was ok with the sadness trilogy but Omikron has been awful in a completely different way
Sigismund, The Emperor's Champion Where have you been? A cave? David "Rapist" Cage announced how he's going to ruin Bladerunner, Minority Report, and Androids.
FF13 and company. Because, contrary to Sam's claims, David Cage's games haven't degraded a previously-excellent franchise. The Lightning-related games aren't even that awful as _games,_ just limited and sometimes disappointing, but the meta narrative with Lightning and Toriyama is fucking gut-wrenching, and it manages to reach out and make good things worse.
Alright... I need to get on my Final Fantasy Soapbox for this. *Trigger Warning: Ranting, Defending FF13, Bashing Lightning a whole bunch* So, a bit of context. I have only actually played FF 7, 10 and 13, so when Isay that 10 is my favorite Final Fantasy, take that with a grain of salt. I've also played entirely too much Dissidia, so thanks to that I at least know _a bit_ about pre-7 Final Fantasies. And the statement that Lightning is the first strong female character in Final Fantasy is absolutely disgusting. Not even counting the numerous secondary characters from the early FFs, of which I am certain *at least one* could be described as "strong", not even counting Yuna from FF10, what about fucking Terra? The main character from FF6? The one who survived her villain *blowing up the world* and grappled with her massive insecurity over being half-Esper, ultimately overcoming it with the help of her true companions? Does she not count as a strong female character because she _emotes_ too much? I'm not by any means a professional, but I don't think "strong female character" necessarily implies "cold-hearted, tough as nails, emotionless bitch". You can write a strong character with flaws and weak moments. And yet, it seems like the Japanese game industry just can't grasp the concept. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but having played through FF13, wasn't Lightning's entire character arc based on her realizing that shutting herself off from others is unhealthy, and that she should probably *stop* being a cold-hearted, emotionless bitch? And yet with FF13-2 (which, I don't care what anyone says, was a mistake they should have learned from with FF10-2) she reverts right back because apparently that's the version of her people liked? Way to undercut her character development in 13. Speaking of which, remember how Lightning was *literally the least interesting character in FF13?* Except maybe Fang, but that.s not her fault, she got all of like 20 minutes of screentime across that entire game. *EVERYONE* in FF13 is more interesting than Lightning. Vanille is more interesting. The NPCs are more interesting. Even freaking Hope gets a really awesome showdown with Snow in which both of them get oodles of character development. The only interesting thing Lightning does is push Hope towards that showdown. The rest of the time she just fucking *broods!* I agree with Liam, FF13 was _fine._ It gets more shit than it deserves, but it does deserve some of the shit it gets. I'd give it an 8/10, on a good day. And a large part of my opinion there is from its similarities with FF10 (my favorite, as mentioned). FF10 was a mostly linear game featuring character-driven story with an ensemble cast and a focus on character development. FF13 was... well, read that sentence again, basically the same thing. More linear, and with a slightly less interesting cast, but still! And then you get to the *Lightning Trilogy* and all of a sudden Lightning was the main character all along? What? I don't care about Lightning, I wanna what's up with Sazh! and Snow! Incidentally, *fuck you whoever made Snow the villain of Lightning Returns.* Snow's entire character in FF13 is based around not giving up, trying his best, and trying again when his best fails. Saying that he's the villain now cause he's lost hope is a slap to the face. Also, again, was I the only one who was totally blindsided by the whole Goddess Etro and whatever... _thing_ from FF13-2? Was that *ever* mentioned in FF13, except in the fucking codex entries? Fucking hell, if you're gonna make a sequel, don't base the plot on _side-material._ Ugh... okay, I think I'm done now. Congratulations for getting to the end.
LittleMountain90 It is absolutely a-mazing how much SquareEnix pushed the worst possible choice to carry the XIII subseries. Fang may've actually been able to carry to carry a short sequel better. Especially with Vanille at her side. Snow could've, Hope could've, and Sazh had way more carrying potential than Lightning. Imagine if they carried on the arc on Sazh wanting to save his son. Or Hell, a parody sequel of Sazh going to get Dajh and himself ice cream or whatever the fuck and he has to reset the universe or some shit to do so. Because Sazh is more than just strong character, he's an entertaining one! During the 229 and a half hours it took for me to Platinum XIII, Sazh was consistently my favorite.
Only things I disagree with is the notion that Lightning reverted in XIII-2. Lightning in XIII-2 was basically MIA. When she was onscreen, she was fighting Caius. There was no point in time to define her as having reverted to being a cold bitch or otherwise. She was at perpetual war, not on a spiritual journey. But in places where she appeared to Serah or had Serah on the brain, she actually *was* sincere and somewhat expressive, same as she was at the end of XIII. It was Lightning Returns that actually reverted her character, and not even fully, considering some dialog she has during the game. Also, Lightning in XIII can be interesting for those interested in seeing a character transition internally. Fang was the least interesting by my standards, and while Snow has his developments, his naivete and repetition had me think of him the same way Lightning did, so his likability was stunted a bit.
LittleMountain90 honestly people who argue 13-2 plot was completely out of left field I hate to point out that was the point. It's abundantly clear the writing is essentially trying to hit reset, it blatantly has nothing to do with the first game and only acknowledges there was a game prior. If it's based off side material, good, it doesn't need the baggage of the first game
i never played ff13 but hear lighting do stripper poses while she has this motion less expression all while trying to be bayonetta .....oooooooh god it's like ,it's like parastie eva all over again. edit: man fuck kingdom hearts for having lighting , may the games where lighting appears in RIH
Nah, Terra/Tina takes the top. She's kickass and doesn't follow the typical girl-meets-guy path while still saving the world and coming to terms with her past and parentage. She's a magical Super Saiyan!
The reason I hate 13 is because it was just the black sheep of the series we didn't need 2 more games I was just sitting here like ok 13 is what is but at least VS13 is around the corner right nope here's 13-2 ok whatever VS13 right around the corner right nope Lightning Returns
Hearing that liam didnt beat 13-2 himself and just watched the ending and said “that was a solid ending” to the most “to be continued next time” thing ever. If Liam thinks the world being swallowed by a dark mist as Lightning’s sister falls to the ground dead and then you see a crystal corpse or lightning as the final shot...i think liam is hugely mistaken. The stuff they bitch about...god taking lighting’s “emotions” with part of her soul, and not being able to create souls...if you beat the game they absolutely take those plot points in a good direction.
That would require them to be adults. With pats ginger man-baby rage at the fact that she showed up in "his" ff14 and Liam being a pseudo pedo-weeb that's not going to happen. Woolie and mat shouldn't have been on this as they have no interest and therefore add nothing. Shit they didn't even have someone there to defend her so this was a farce from the start. They just wanted to here themselves shit on something they didn't have any real reason to hate in the first place.
lightning uses the power of her friends to make a big anime sword to cut the final boss in half while everyone else gets what they lost in the last 2 games and Lightning goes back to a world set in modern day to just be a girl again.
I have been playing 13-1 for the first time ever and I am liking it just fine, knowing well in advance the issues it has. I may even be inclined to play 13-2 and might reach to 13-3.
@@Stefano.C Yeah I heard that people who have played ff 13 and are aware of it's flaws have really found it worth playing, even if it doesn't match the quality of the other games in the franchise.
Out of all three games, 13-1 was the strongest entry. Even with a poor story and absurdly long hallways, you have several characters who hate each other at first but become closer as they journey together. FF3-2 was a convoluted mess with time travel. LR is the worst. You control only one character, play it with a strict in-game time limit, and it has a very poor dialogues and storyline. You might as well buy Majora's Mask instead if you want to play something like that.
The only point you need to take from this is that Liam thinks FFXIII is fine. Whereas any right-minded human being would be right in saying that FFXIII barely qualifies as a game to begin with. =p
I remember enjoying Lightning Returns but upon reflection, I think my enjoyment of Lightning Returns comes from 3 main factors: 1. I never played XIII and XIII-2 (After Lightning Returns, I played XIII and despised it.) so I had no expectations for what was going to happen. 2: I had pre-ordered it because there was a Cloud costume bonus for it so yeah. and 3: I did not think at all about the story being given to me. I may need to replay it to figure out my opinion on it.
I don't understand why anyone is surprised with how stupid the emotionless Lightning is when we've spent SEVERAL KINGDOM HEARTS GAMES attempting to empathize with characters that have no emotions and needed to be desperately retconned how badly written they all are by saying that all of their laughter, rage, sadness, etc. is them pretending to have emotions.
@@GenMars care to elaborate? Also, just because another game is bad doesn't retroactively make another game better. There's a reason vs 13 was rebranded as FF 15.
I actually disagree about Kojima. I think he is a guy who SHOULD have been held back by a committee sometimes because even though I still appreciate the MGS series, there was a SERIOUS issue with them as far as pacing, story, and fan treatment goes. Not to mention the weird sexualization / ogling of ladies in MGS4 and 5 that went way further intouncomfortable than the previous games' jokes and fanservice. Overall, looking back on the games makes me think of Kojima as like a guy who needed his ego knocked down, because generally, the gameplay was great, but the stories and clumsy exposition were a fucking _mess_. If MGS had been a film series that shit wouldn't fly with critics and considering so much of the games involve just watching cutscenes a lot of my experiences with the games remind me of watching really long movies that would sometimes be really fun and interesting but could also get deathly boring and were paced like a first draft of a script where the writer just wrote down EVERYTHING they wanted to put into the story as exposition. There's way too much "tell" and way too little "show". 4 especially had this feeling like it crammed a whole other game's worth of plot into dialogue scenes. I haven't played MGS 5 besides Ground Zeroes, so I can't speak on that, but MGS 3 is the one game that I thought was the closest to perfect because it had far less time devoted to exposition cut scenes (allowing for more gameplay which, really, is fantastic) and a greater feeling of a connection to the characters, as well as the characters to their roles in the story.
Oh absolutely, I started to hate Kojima and MGS since he made MGS4 pretty because of what you said : dumb, uninspired and pretentious stories and characters (seriously WHY people praised MGS4 back in the day) however I would not hate Kojima at all because of what he did with MGS2 which reminds me of what Anno did on The End of Evangelion.
@@mastermarkus5307 I mean, he has interesting ideas and he was one of the first in putting political and thought provoking ideas in action games however he isn't the best in telling them. His sexism is really not that debatable, he did created a couple of good and strong female characters but then he did Quiet and prior to her Beauty and Beast so...
@@joseph0098 Agreed. I didn't initially realize what this comment was responding to but it's definitely true that he has some good ideas, the problem is that he's given too much power over his creations. Yeah, I was a fan of MGS and wavered at 4 and then seeing Quiet in trailers was just the straw that broke the camel's back and I quit caring about that shit HARD. Also while Meryl and Eva are arguably strong characters they still got inappropriately sexualized. The only significant lady I can think of who wasn't was The Boss.
@altosforteaquax5083 people hate Captain Marvel because she's boring not because she's super powerful Brie Larson can act but her direction wasn't that good and she comes off as interesting as a plank of wood
FF13 was honest to god, unfortunately, my first FF game. i do not care about lightning as a character, i hate her as a protagonist, i can't believe how much rep she got, and FF15 is the stuff of legend.
Wow... listening to these is interesting because of where the game industry was going. Why are so many people fucking obsessed with money and entitlement? o_O
Wow I finally played the trilogy myself and their outrage is SUPER overblown. That cutscene does not work without the context of the other games in the 13 franchise, and it’s kind of weird how much they treated the 13 stuff as being “the ff franchise” when a ff15 that appeals to ff fans was being made already. This is ridiculous in retrospect.
@@fightingmedialounge519 there's no legit grievances in this video knowing how wrong they were about 15 pats man-baby rage at the thought of her in "his" game is laughable.
He's not the protagonist past the first sections of the game, most of the actually important caracters just kinda shove him aside from that point on words, and that's because he wasn't originally supposed to exist but they were forced to put a fuckboi in the game so that horni 17 year old girls would buy the game
I don't really see what's so bad about the ending. Sure, they kill God with the power of friendship, but that's pretty standard in JRPGs. Is it just because Lightning is such a huge Mary Sue, because while she absolutely is, I feel like her being the main character gives her a little bit of leeway. Really, the only real reason I see to hate it is because the very end seems to imply it leads to the creation of our world, which is pretty bullshit.
@@altosforteaquax5083I did, and while 13-2 is a guilty pleasure, FF 13 has all but killed Square Enix. There's a reason they rebranded 15. FF13 was a dumpster fire.
@@altosforteaquax5083Yeah, I do because I played these games. I recently watched videos of people trying to defend FF13, but I honestly think that's because gaming has gotten so much since FF13.
@@altosforteaquax5083 Also, my original comment was posted 6 years ago, and your replay was 1 year ago. So why were you replying on a 5 year old comment and then giving me lip for a reply 1 year later?
Ha, you're not a strong female character if you work to overthrow a tyrannical religion, the religion you were once part of snd now see it's vile evil, that's actively perpetuating the massacre of countless innocents over the span of centuries; killing several (essentially) gods; sacrificing your loved one to save the god damn world; grow from a naive maiden to a battle hardened badass while staying down to earth and emotional (without X-2). Yuna is a very strong female character in FFX.
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Matt: I think 10 has the worst script
Pat and Liam: (in unison) "Destiny is destiny."
Matt: Oh shit
"Oh, Kingdom Hearts III is gonna be *RIFE* with this bitch!"
Thanks, Crazy Talk, for saving us from that reality.
Crazy talk taking the bullets for us
The price was barely any good FF character screentime...
Because what we got after 14 years is really worth defending, LOL.
Bayonetta is a kind of character that I don't mind being Kamiya's "waifu" because beyond her game just being good, she also a character that other people like! The big issue with Toryiama pushing Lightning is that _nobody fucking likes Lightning except him!_
@bideo gaems Or that the poll was rigged. I have a feeling this stuff happens more than people think. It's sort of like wrestling...the company is going to "push" who they want to be popular, and the character they want to be popular is whoever is in a game currently being sold. If they had the poll around the time FF15 came out I'm pretty sure Noctis would be the most popular Final Fantasy character. I'm pretty sure when FF7 remake comes out, Cloud will once again be the most popular final fantasy protagonist ever (although Square probably won't have to rig the numbers for him).
@Lydia oh word?
Fuck you, I do.
Still think the same?
Might want to do some research on this again.
"You can't change your fate, but you can change your destiny."
destiny is destiny
Abigail English mo money,mo problems .
Oh shit
I shut the game off the first time I heard it. If that's something I'm gonna be surprised with every few times I win a fight, I would have punched my tv
"People who played Final Fantasy VI back in the day, like me, some of them don't play games anymore, some of them are dead, some of them don't remember." - Patrick Boivin, 2014
Too much crack I suppose
Cloud's character in the original FF7 felt really genuine. I related to his whole "creating my own personality to become stronger, but that's not reality" kind of thing. Flawed, but strong enough to keep moving, and is even silly at times. And yeah he was still blaming himself about Aerith's death in Advent Children, but when I went back to the original and watched Advent Children again, he was WAYYYYYYYY too mopey. Again, I understand his reasons, but still.
Which makes me pretty excited about how his original personality will transition into the remake. :)
Cloud was great in FFVII, it wasn’t until later stuff that he got lame.
Advent Children fucked Cloud over dialing up the emo wangst, cauze they think it makes him hot/interesting/tragic when it just makes him look like a misery guts. Crisis Core and Kingdom continued the emo style with him.
@@tailedgates9 Dude when that comes out in ten years I hope they use og Clouds personality instead of ac Cloud. Knowing square though...
@@Peteaguy FF7 remake uses the OG Cloud; the snarky, overconfident one. So, we're pretty much safe
The awkward moment when FFXIV is the most genuine FF game we've had since XII, and it's a bloody mmorpg.
It's 2020 now and FF XIV keeps going super strong still.
@@ZoMbi5lAy3r endwalker got nothing but 10/10s and pat now says that ff14 is his favourite game of all time
Its 2022 and it took FFVII Remake to remind people that single player Final Fantasy could be made and not be botched like 15 was. Hoping 16 comes out good
@@TheSergio1021 made by the same people who made ff14 so it should be at least pretty good and better than ff15
@@TheSergio1021 7 remake is more poorly written "comp of ff7" garbage
God coming back to this and hearing Liam say "15 is gonna be a series" is hilarious and sad at the same time
I still wish it could have been a series..
Yoship and his teams really ARE our last hope... rip the pc port for a year and longer if its on epic
FF 13 ruined 15. Remember, it was originally versus 13.
@@kap1618 and what was that supposed to mean? Look up the early concept for 15. The one where Norris and luna were supposed to be rivals for the position of god's representative.
@@altosforteaquax5083 Yeah, I know, but they rebranded 15 from vs 13 because the 13 brand would have been the kiss of death for that game. All the changes that needed to be made to 15 could have been avoided if 15 was allowed to be its own thing instead of yet another 13 sequal.
That opening discussion about "what happened, the Toriyama sphere was rolling and couldn't be stopped" is fascinating now that we really do have evidence of a small handful of prominent Japanese devs utterly massacring games during seventh-gen (and sometimes before that). Combined with Lightning Returns clearly beginning life as a Valkyrie Profile reboot and being reskinned as Final Fantasy 13, yeah, a lot of that game's problems came from directorial and executive decisions. Interesting stuff.
More David cage than David cage? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!!!!!
M...Masaka...!
Nani!?
Why does Japan think that strong female characters = total ice queen? Does that make Rei Ayanami the strongest japanese character ever?
Because they can't give them emotions without making them cry and look weak, I guess? Heck if I know. It's weird because it's almost sort-of like why we thought the 90s cool action hero thing was a strong character and kept doing it even though it only worked like a handful of times.
One reason is that Japanese society encourages it's people to act humble and keep any emotional expressions to a bare minimum.
1Kenny30 Wouldn't say they were trying to make a strong character, just a complex one. They wouldn't have break down moments otherwise. There are very strong female characters but they are mostly found in shoujo stuff. There are some strong one in shonen. As dumb as it sounds Kaminashi in Keijo's manga is very high on the list. Her personality is bulletproof.
I mean if that were completely true, we wouldn't have Major Kusanagi
It's about how they believe standing out and being brazen as totally taboo.
For them, they value a woman who would have great strength but she doesn't display it where it can be easily seen. Where as the outside image is one of calm, and politeness. Inside they're determined and ready to defend what's hers, and using mostly her wits if she can. It's why in movies set in samurai times and the like, you see a lot of powerful women not even standing. I can remember one Kurosawa flick in particular where a woman makes her final play at revenge and when she's caught, she's just kneeling down with a resolute look on her face.
Even right up to when the man she got revenge on walks up and cuts her down, she doesn't acknowledge him directly.
So I imagine an exaggerated version of that is a woman who doesn't react to anything, but isn't at all weak. No emotion at all. It makes her mysterious and desirable to find her subtleties and motivation because a woman like that totally would blend in and not be the nail sticking up to be hammered down, but you know this nail is what's holding everything together.
...but that's just one Westerner's opinion.
I haven't played a single one of these games, just the pure disgust each one of them spews is excellent background noise.
This makes me wish we got Lightning as Smash 4 DLC instead of Cloud: just to hear about it on the Friendcast.
"Now its up to Nomura to save final fantasy!" WOW if only they knew
*OH IF ONLY*
If only...
FF7remake was fine, better than I thought it would be.
@@li-limandragon9287
7 Remake was good to great (obviously 15 lost him cause of kh3 and FF7R). The man is a good director but needs a good group around him to keep him in check. 7 Remake combat is so much better than 15 which is what I really cared about.
@@GilliamYaeger They DO know, and they LIKE it.
Why couldn't we have just gotten a game with Tifa as the protagonist? Fucking love Tifa.
FoxOwne we all do
Because all the weebs were crying over Arith's death like she was the second coming of bacon.
It'd just be more badly written comp of ff7 crap
Goddamn, I'm so glad that Yoshi-P and Nomura saved this franchise from Toriyama's David Cagey-ness.
1Kenny30 even tho 15 was an unfinished mess
crazygamer4260 But it was a FUN unfinished mess!
Nomura didn't work on ff15, that was Tabata and he did the best he could with what he had, and It's pretty impressive tbh.
@@ThatOneGuy0006 no it wasn't
@@ThatOneGuy0006 citation needed. The game they scrapped was better than the 15 we got.
I love how everyone instantly starts dying the moment Matt compares Lightning to Warrior King
Man whatever happened to Toriyama, and Lightning has been completely forgotten
So, am I right in thinking that Lightning is basically the Poochie of the Final Fantasy franchise?
TBot Alpha that's Uber accurate
nah, poochie went away
Other acceptable simile: Lighting is the Roman Reigns of Final Fantasy.
Does that make Tifa the John Cena of Final Fantasy?
shadikal12345 I mean...in many contexts, yes, just not sure if this one.
*later in the ff15 episodes*
liam: "lightning returns is a good game"
I love em, but thinking Nomura could save what Toriyama couldn't is hilarious
not even Amano could save what Toriyama couldn't.
IDK man, Nomura's actually doing pretty well all things considered.(it's a bit sad that for a time, he was considered Square's ONLY competent director.)
@@anthonychessar7179 kh2 was gud, but i have no real love for disney so i stopped caring in the wait for 3 and FF7 remake is padded poorly written "comp of ff7" garbo
Now we will never know, rip Miura sensei
Lightning isn't even a strong female character.
you know who is a strong female character? Rydia.
And Beatrix.
Myriad Truth Marle
Myriad Truth Terra. Tifa. Fang.
Sanobearon Like all the girls from FFIV-FFVI.
He out David Caged, David Cage!? My god...
What about six? Great story, great characters, and a FANTASTIC villain. Also, i would love to see the soundtrack redone with a full orchestra.
This is the first time I've ever heard anybody but myself say that final fantasy X-II's battle system is amazing.
If future Final Fantasy games are anything like XV, consider me a fan for life.
Man the faith these guys had in XV, if only they knew
7:51 I am going to have to assume this is Woolie pre-Parasite Eve.... cause if not, there is no excuse for this logic.
how the fuck have i not heard this until now
The real shitty thing is that Lightning Returns has the same basic premise as Valkyrie Profile. I haven't even played Valkyrie Profile and somehow it still makes me hate Lightning Returns even more.
No Woolie, you meant to say "What is the dark sacrament of cybernetics and AI technology advancement, the overlord of all computing power and electronic devices John Carmack going to do now?"
…goddamnit I DO want 8-2.
"Nothing gets taken off Vimeo" Pat 1789. Well, Alex Jones was just taken off Vimeo.
do they ever talk more about dragon age?
only pat has ever cared about Dragon Age. Liam played Inquisition and that's about it.
I still can't get over Liam saying he platniumed the game, even though he said it was fine. I would think one would complete everything in a game that they loved/enjoyed, not just a game that was just fine
wow sounds like they're talkin bout last of us 2
I don't remember all the key points of the story of Lightning Returns but what if the guy that's controlling on lightning and all them is just an analog for that guy who made the 13 series
Which Sadness Trilogy is worse. FF13, 13-2 and Lighting Returns, OR the David Cage trilogy (I personally say FF specifically because of the length of the games). For perspective, I have played every FF games, minus the MMO's, and the entire Cage trilogy.
Don't make us choose. It's like picking poison vs a bullet.
The Sadness Saga (Omnikron, Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, Beyond Two Souls, and Detroit)
Sam Lucas Detroit? don't tell me that there's another DC game that I didn't know about
I was ok with the sadness trilogy but Omikron has been awful in a completely different way
Sigismund, The Emperor's Champion Where have you been? A cave? David "Rapist" Cage announced how he's going to ruin Bladerunner, Minority Report, and Androids.
FF13 and company. Because, contrary to Sam's claims, David Cage's games haven't degraded a previously-excellent franchise. The Lightning-related games aren't even that awful as _games,_ just limited and sometimes disappointing, but the meta narrative with Lightning and Toriyama is fucking gut-wrenching, and it manages to reach out and make good things worse.
Cloud + ash (from evil dead) = Guts
In with Matt on FF VIII-2
God I wish Lightning was in KH 3....
If Lightning isn’t able to do a team attack with Lightning McQueen then what is the damn point of KH
I saw an image of her with a pummel bat in a magazine I guess that never happened
Alright... I need to get on my Final Fantasy Soapbox for this.
*Trigger Warning: Ranting, Defending FF13, Bashing Lightning a whole bunch*
So, a bit of context. I have only actually played FF 7, 10 and 13, so when Isay that 10 is my favorite Final Fantasy, take that with a grain of salt. I've also played entirely too much Dissidia, so thanks to that I at least know _a bit_ about pre-7 Final Fantasies. And the statement that Lightning is the first strong female character in Final Fantasy is absolutely disgusting.
Not even counting the numerous secondary characters from the early FFs, of which I am certain *at least one* could be described as "strong", not even counting Yuna from FF10, what about fucking Terra? The main character from FF6? The one who survived her villain *blowing up the world* and grappled with her massive insecurity over being half-Esper, ultimately overcoming it with the help of her true companions? Does she not count as a strong female character because she _emotes_ too much?
I'm not by any means a professional, but I don't think "strong female character" necessarily implies "cold-hearted, tough as nails, emotionless bitch". You can write a strong character with flaws and weak moments. And yet, it seems like the Japanese game industry just can't grasp the concept.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but having played through FF13, wasn't Lightning's entire character arc based on her realizing that shutting herself off from others is unhealthy, and that she should probably *stop* being a cold-hearted, emotionless bitch? And yet with FF13-2 (which, I don't care what anyone says, was a mistake they should have learned from with FF10-2) she reverts right back because apparently that's the version of her people liked? Way to undercut her character development in 13.
Speaking of which, remember how Lightning was *literally the least interesting character in FF13?* Except maybe Fang, but that.s not her fault, she got all of like 20 minutes of screentime across that entire game. *EVERYONE* in FF13 is more interesting than Lightning. Vanille is more interesting. The NPCs are more interesting. Even freaking Hope gets a really awesome showdown with Snow in which both of them get oodles of character development. The only interesting thing Lightning does is push Hope towards that showdown. The rest of the time she just fucking *broods!*
I agree with Liam, FF13 was _fine._ It gets more shit than it deserves, but it does deserve some of the shit it gets. I'd give it an 8/10, on a good day. And a large part of my opinion there is from its similarities with FF10 (my favorite, as mentioned). FF10 was a mostly linear game featuring character-driven story with an ensemble cast and a focus on character development. FF13 was... well, read that sentence again, basically the same thing. More linear, and with a slightly less interesting cast, but still!
And then you get to the *Lightning Trilogy* and all of a sudden Lightning was the main character all along? What? I don't care about Lightning, I wanna what's up with Sazh! and Snow! Incidentally, *fuck you whoever made Snow the villain of Lightning Returns.* Snow's entire character in FF13 is based around not giving up, trying his best, and trying again when his best fails. Saying that he's the villain now cause he's lost hope is a slap to the face.
Also, again, was I the only one who was totally blindsided by the whole Goddess Etro and whatever... _thing_ from FF13-2? Was that *ever* mentioned in FF13, except in the fucking codex entries? Fucking hell, if you're gonna make a sequel, don't base the plot on _side-material._
Ugh... okay, I think I'm done now. Congratulations for getting to the end.
i knew it ,i knew i wasn't crazy that lighting not interesting
LittleMountain90 It is absolutely a-mazing how much SquareEnix pushed the worst possible choice to carry the XIII subseries. Fang may've actually been able to carry to carry a short sequel better. Especially with Vanille at her side. Snow could've, Hope could've, and Sazh had way more carrying potential than Lightning. Imagine if they carried on the arc on Sazh wanting to save his son. Or Hell, a parody sequel of Sazh going to get Dajh and himself ice cream or whatever the fuck and he has to reset the universe or some shit to do so. Because Sazh is more than just strong character, he's an entertaining one! During the 229 and a half hours it took for me to Platinum XIII, Sazh was consistently my favorite.
XIII was an anti-rpg.
At least X was still an rpg despite being linear.
Only things I disagree with is the notion that Lightning reverted in XIII-2. Lightning in XIII-2 was basically MIA. When she was onscreen, she was fighting Caius. There was no point in time to define her as having reverted to being a cold bitch or otherwise. She was at perpetual war, not on a spiritual journey. But in places where she appeared to Serah or had Serah on the brain, she actually *was* sincere and somewhat expressive, same as she was at the end of XIII.
It was Lightning Returns that actually reverted her character, and not even fully, considering some dialog she has during the game.
Also, Lightning in XIII can be interesting for those interested in seeing a character transition internally. Fang was the least interesting by my standards, and while Snow has his developments, his naivete and repetition had me think of him the same way Lightning did, so his likability was stunted a bit.
LittleMountain90 honestly people who argue 13-2 plot was completely out of left field I hate to point out that was the point. It's abundantly clear the writing is essentially trying to hit reset, it blatantly has nothing to do with the first game and only acknowledges there was a game prior. If it's based off side material, good, it doesn't need the baggage of the first game
i never played ff13 but hear lighting do stripper poses while she has this motion less expression all while trying to be bayonetta .....oooooooh god it's like ,it's like parastie eva all over again.
edit: man fuck kingdom hearts for having lighting , may the games where lighting appears in RIH
nemsis turboverdirve But Lightning isn't in any KH game tho
EDIT: NVM PLSNO LIGHTING IN KH3
I've come around on Lightning Returns' gameplay and fashion focus.
There's no fixing that plot. At least some of the quests are funny.
13's trilogy and story is so messy, even 10 and 12 's story looked much better in comparison
she cant be any worse portrayed or written than basically every female character in mgs4 lol
Man this game was great
Tifa's the strongest in Final Fantasy history. Tifa literally kicks ass.
Nah, Terra/Tina takes the top. She's kickass and doesn't follow the typical girl-meets-guy path while still saving the world and coming to terms with her past and parentage. She's a magical Super Saiyan!
Lightning beats a god, who does Tifa beat? An over dramatic dick with parent issues.
@@altosforteaquax5083 Tifa has a personality, what does Lightning have?
@@MILDMONSTER1234 3 games to Tifa's 1.
@@altosforteaquax5083 Not counting the compilation and cameos of course lol
The reason I hate 13 is because it was just the black sheep of the series we didn't need 2 more games I was just sitting here like ok 13 is what is but at least VS13 is around the corner right nope here's 13-2 ok whatever VS13 right around the corner right nope Lightning Returns
well this didn't age well
Hearing that liam didnt beat 13-2 himself and just watched the ending and said “that was a solid ending” to the most “to be continued next time” thing ever. If Liam thinks the world being swallowed by a dark mist as Lightning’s sister falls to the ground dead and then you see a crystal corpse or lightning as the final shot...i think liam is hugely mistaken.
The stuff they bitch about...god taking lighting’s “emotions” with part of her soul, and not being able to create souls...if you beat the game they absolutely take those plot points in a good direction.
That would require them to be adults. With pats ginger man-baby rage at the fact that she showed up in "his" ff14 and Liam being a pseudo pedo-weeb that's not going to happen. Woolie and mat shouldn't have been on this as they have no interest and therefore add nothing. Shit they didn't even have someone there to defend her so this was a farce from the start. They just wanted to here themselves shit on something they didn't have any real reason to hate in the first place.
Well they called it on the Kingdom Hearts 3 bullshit
Toriyama? Wait please tell me this isn't dragonball toriyama?
Cause that be depressing....
sokumo tanaka Different Toriyama
4:12 DA2 is great even despite it's many flaws
25:46
clusterfuck of everyone talking at once
classy guys, real classy.
Welcome in Best Friends. Lol
lol this crazy old i been watching them
I know. Lol Just couldn't resist.
Jade could sell!! I felt that Matt
Ok so, does anyone else think that the mercenary woman from 15 was clearly meant to be lightening before they quickly changed it?
PanelHopper Aranea is lightning but with tits and not the worst
I don't get it. What happened and why is it bad?
Its been long enough. What was the ending of lighting returns.
lightning uses the power of her friends to make a big anime sword to cut the final boss in half while everyone else gets what they lost in the last 2 games and Lightning goes back to a world set in modern day to just be a girl again.
@@Sonicfalcon16 thanks. That sounds awful.
anybody want them to do a playthrough of final fantasy 13 now
To be quite honest all of this talk of LR being wild is tempting me to buy it
I have been playing 13-1 for the first time ever and I am liking it just fine, knowing well in advance the issues it has. I may even be inclined to play 13-2 and might reach to 13-3.
@@Stefano.C Yeah I heard that people who have played ff 13 and are aware of it's flaws have really found it worth playing, even if it doesn't match the quality of the other games in the franchise.
Out of all three games, 13-1 was the strongest entry. Even with a poor story and absurdly long hallways, you have several characters who hate each other at first but become closer as they journey together. FF3-2 was a convoluted mess with time travel. LR is the worst. You control only one character, play it with a strict in-game time limit, and it has a very poor dialogues and storyline. You might as well buy Majora's Mask instead if you want to play something like that.
The only point you need to take from this is that Liam thinks FFXIII is fine. Whereas any right-minded human being would be right in saying that FFXIII barely qualifies as a game to begin with. =p
I remember enjoying Lightning Returns but upon reflection, I think my enjoyment of Lightning Returns comes from 3 main factors: 1. I never played XIII and XIII-2 (After Lightning Returns, I played XIII and despised it.) so I had no expectations for what was going to happen. 2: I had pre-ordered it because there was a Cloud costume bonus for it so yeah. and 3: I did not think at all about the story being given to me. I may need to replay it to figure out my opinion on it.
I don't understand why anyone is surprised with how stupid the emotionless Lightning is when we've spent SEVERAL KINGDOM HEARTS GAMES attempting to empathize with characters that have no emotions and needed to be desperately retconned how badly written they all are by saying that all of their laughter, rage, sadness, etc. is them pretending to have emotions.
note4note But they were regaining hearts, tho. Being nothing was both truth and a lie...
note4note They were being affected by Ventus's heart inside of Roxas, so yes, they weren't actually feeling those emotions.
anyone here after FF7remake retroactively made 13 the better game?
How did it make 13 better?
@@kap1618 cause 7 sucks now, its "the better" game as I said
@@GenMars care to elaborate? Also, just because another game is bad doesn't retroactively make another game better. There's a reason vs 13 was rebranded as FF 15.
I like the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy.
As do I.
I like the audiovisual presentation and gameplay, but their stories are either bad or mediocre in my opinion.
See the problem here is thay instead of playing new final fantasy games you should have just been replying chrono trigger
I actually disagree about Kojima. I think he is a guy who SHOULD have been held back by a committee sometimes because even though I still appreciate the MGS series, there was a SERIOUS issue with them as far as pacing, story, and fan treatment goes. Not to mention the weird sexualization / ogling of ladies in MGS4 and 5 that went way further intouncomfortable than the previous games' jokes and fanservice.
Overall, looking back on the games makes me think of Kojima as like a guy who needed his ego knocked down, because generally, the gameplay was great, but the stories and clumsy exposition were a fucking _mess_. If MGS had been a film series that shit wouldn't fly with critics and considering so much of the games involve just watching cutscenes a lot of my experiences with the games remind me of watching really long movies that would sometimes be really fun and interesting but could also get deathly boring and were paced like a first draft of a script where the writer just wrote down EVERYTHING they wanted to put into the story as exposition. There's way too much "tell" and way too little "show". 4 especially had this feeling like it crammed a whole other game's worth of plot into dialogue scenes.
I haven't played MGS 5 besides Ground Zeroes, so I can't speak on that, but MGS 3 is the one game that I thought was the closest to perfect because it had far less time devoted to exposition cut scenes (allowing for more gameplay which, really, is fantastic) and a greater feeling of a connection to the characters, as well as the characters to their roles in the story.
Oh absolutely, I started to hate Kojima and MGS since he made MGS4 pretty because of what you said : dumb, uninspired and pretentious stories and characters (seriously WHY people praised MGS4 back in the day) however I would not hate Kojima at all because of what he did with MGS2 which reminds me of what Anno did on The End of Evangelion.
@@joseph0098
Overall what I hate most about Kojima is his pretentiousness and his sexism.
@@mastermarkus5307 I mean, he has interesting ideas and he was one of the first in putting political and thought provoking ideas in action games however he isn't the best in telling them. His sexism is really not that debatable, he did created a couple of good and strong female characters but then he did Quiet and prior to her Beauty and Beast so...
@@joseph0098 Agreed. I didn't initially realize what this comment was responding to but it's definitely true that he has some good ideas, the problem is that he's given too much power over his creations.
Yeah, I was a fan of MGS and wavered at 4 and then seeing Quiet in trailers was just the straw that broke the camel's back and I quit caring about that shit HARD.
Also while Meryl and Eva are arguably strong characters they still got inappropriately sexualized. The only significant lady I can think of who wasn't was The Boss.
And yet he gets a pass cuz muh mgs tho
Lightning sounds like the Captain Marvel of final fantasy
You mean the strongest character that people hate because they can't handle the idea of even a fictional woman being stronger than a man? That one?
@altosforteaquax5083 people hate Captain Marvel because she's boring not because she's super powerful
Brie Larson can act but her direction wasn't that good and she comes off as interesting as a plank of wood
@@altosforteaquax5083
Wow, people like you really do exist.
@@deeta000 you to responding to year old comments
FF13 was honest to god, unfortunately, my first FF game. i do not care about lightning as a character, i hate her as a protagonist, i can't believe how much rep she got, and FF15 is the stuff of legend.
Wow... listening to these is interesting because of where the game industry was going. Why are so many people fucking obsessed with money and entitlement? o_O
ff xv came out good.
is this the fabled podcast where they shit on FFXII ending? I've been looking for that one since the machinima episode
You mean XIII?
I'm super confused, what's wrong with the ending?
I believe it's because everyone comes back to life or something
The characters of ff13 create the world that ff7 takes place in.
+Chaotic Heretic I thought the implication was even worse, that it was OUR world
The characters of X-2 (descendants of a guy named Shinra, I think) kinda-sorta create the world of FF7, actually.
Whining Ylthin
No it's the opposite.
Shinra in FFX-2 is a descendant of Shinra from FF7.
Eh, LR was okay. Full of cheese, sure, but people exaggerate a lot when it comes to 13.
No one's ever going to read this but...
Pat: Nomura makes good games
Me: But Kingdom Hearts tho
1 and 2 were good
LOL mat randomly saying "pargon"
who the fuck is warrior king?
11:40 wtf is woolie actually talking about here
ok warrior king is from street fighter crossover
>yuna
>strong character
What
What I was thinking
When did she ever in 10-1 show strength. And I like her a lot.
I liked that they killed "GOD" but that's about it.
Love nomura
Tifa with blonde hair would have been so damn boring.
lightning is hot though
Just when i thought i couldnt dislike liam anymore i learn hes a FF13 apologist.
triggered at pat calling quistis a nothing character
Wow I finally played the trilogy myself and their outrage is SUPER overblown. That cutscene does not work without the context of the other games in the 13 franchise, and it’s kind of weird how much they treated the 13 stuff as being “the ff franchise” when a ff15 that appeals to ff fans was being made already. This is ridiculous in retrospect.
Not really, people still have problems with this trilogy.
@@fightingmedialounge519 So their opinion on the trilogy carries more weight because more people agree with their point of view?
@@fightingmedialounge519 yeah, I thought so.
@@altosforteaquax5083 no, I'm poiting out that their outrage isn't overblown in terms of fan response, or legitimate grievances.
@@fightingmedialounge519 there's no legit grievances in this video knowing how wrong they were about 15 pats man-baby rage at the thought of her in "his" game is laughable.
Who the fuck is von?
He's talking about Vann, the protagonist of FF12... I think.
He's not the protagonist past the first sections of the game, most of the actually important caracters just kinda shove him aside from that point on words, and that's because he wasn't originally supposed to exist but they were forced to put a fuckboi in the game so that horni 17 year old girls would buy the game
why the fuck would anyone platinum a "fine" game.
Too bad final fantasy 15 was kinda butt
I don't really see what's so bad about the ending. Sure, they kill God with the power of friendship, but that's pretty standard in JRPGs. Is it just because Lightning is such a huge Mary Sue, because while she absolutely is, I feel like her being the main character gives her a little bit of leeway. Really, the only real reason I see to hate it is because the very end seems to imply it leads to the creation of our world, which is pretty bullshit.
I dont see how anyone can like ff 13.
Try again .
@@altosforteaquax5083I did, and while 13-2 is a guilty pleasure, FF 13 has all but killed Square Enix. There's a reason they rebranded 15. FF13 was a dumpster fire.
@@kap1618 great argument. A YEAR LATER. You don't even know why you "don't like it" do you?
@@altosforteaquax5083Yeah, I do because I played these games. I recently watched videos of people trying to defend FF13, but I honestly think that's because gaming has gotten so much since FF13.
@@altosforteaquax5083 Also, my original comment was posted 6 years ago, and your replay was 1 year ago. So why were you replying on a 5 year old comment and then giving me lip for a reply 1 year later?
I dont think any of the 13 games where bad. Now 15 that shit is trash.
The entire Final Fantasy 13 saga was complete nonsense.
Shit attempt at bait
Also Yuna used as a reference for strong female.... Shes not.
Ha, you're not a strong female character if you work to overthrow a tyrannical religion, the religion you were once part of snd now see it's vile evil, that's actively perpetuating the massacre of countless innocents over the span of centuries; killing several (essentially) gods; sacrificing your loved one to save the god damn world; grow from a naive maiden to a battle hardened badass while staying down to earth and emotional (without X-2).
Yuna is a very strong female character in FFX.
@@lapisgerentis6337 no.
gotta love how pat talking about frame rate always ruins the podcast