Shogun 1x8 | "The Abyss of Life" EMOTIONAL REACTION!!!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- Zakk, Joy and Shane react to Shogun!
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CHAPTERS
0:00 - Intro
5:52 - REACTION
34:19 - Post Discussion
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If Hiromatsu had not raised his voice in that scene, all of Toranaga's servants who opposed him would have had to commit seppuku. Hiromatsu assumed this responsibility himself and believed in Toranaga's true intentions. His death was not in vain.
I think they wouldn't commit seppuku but worse, they would attempt to make a coup. Hiromatsu was quick to notice that and by taking the lead and commiting seppuku himself, undid any chance of Coup.
私は日本人です。このエピソードについて海外の方のリアクション動画をたくさん見ました。なのでもしかすると理解されないかもしれませんが、直近の二人の死に様に少し憧れのようなものを感じます。少なくとも悲劇的なものは感じません。なぜなら私には命をかけてもいいと思える存在も、仲間や国のために成すべき目的も何もないからです。生き方とは死に方です。つまり切腹とは死に方であり生き方です。紅天はこれから始まるのではなく既に始まっています。二つの生き様を引き連れて、紅天を導く虎長の生き様に期待しています。
あの場面で涙が止めどもなく流れてくる。
Thank you for the comment!
この極限の状況は日本人でもなかなかに理解しがたいとは思います😅
人の一生は病気になり、事故にあって人生を終わる事がほとんどです。どんなに裕福な人でも。が、自分の命を犯してまで、大義を貫いた当時の日本人には脱帽です😢
明治の文豪が海外の本を翻訳するときに“I love you”を日本語で表現しようとして“(あなたの為なら)死んでも良い”と翻訳した事にも通じる部分あるね
There is a proverb in Mr. Son's military tactics that says, ``Before deceiving your enemy, first deceive your allies,'' and the death of his son (who did not even attend his funeral) and seppuku of a senior vassal were all part of this. His senior ministers saw through his plan that he had no intention of going against Osaka, and made his plan a success with his own death.
His old friend knew his plan and willing to sacrifice.
@@justwatchnotsayyes but hiromatsu didn’t know until the very end when he said “so you DO believe in useless death”
@@Valufromhi He knew it before that when some other people tried to resist，then he immediately intervened
@@Valufromhi Hiromatsu is probably the only one that knows Toranaga's "Secret heart"(remember the 3 hearts in Japanese culture).
He probably knew quite early what was going on, but decided to perform Seppuku as a distraction/measure to prevent his other generals from rebelling.
@@justwatchnotsay he didn’t know it, Toranaga was hoping it was one of his other vassals, but Hiromatsu spoke up unexpectedly
コメントでチェスにように表現する方が多いですね。😊
しかし、虎長は将棋をしています。
将棋は、チェスと違い 奪った駒を使えます。
そのため、重要な持ち駒でも囮として奪わせ 王を獲る作戦もあります。
勝利には、策略がすべてにおいて重要です。
Toranaga: Its a Prank!
The Prank: 29:42
The time Hiromatsu interjected was when one retainer put his hands on his wakizashi. It was a way to deescalate. Otherwise more blood would have been shed in that meeting.
Also, Hiromatsu made a huge error earlier in the episode when he told the contingent of samurai waiting outside the preliminary meeting that Toranaga will attack since he would not send the priest back to Osaka with the message otherwise. Spies could be everywhere and there might be a spy within their ranks; that was a careless leak of communication.
The defeat and surrender needed to be sold and make their enemies overconfident and complacent. And what best way to convince the enemy than to convince your allies. And what better sacrifice than his own right hand man, who, in dying sells the defeat and makes up for the aforementioned mistake.
Also, that was why Hiromatsu called Buntaro to second him, not Yabushige or any of those senior looking retainers. He had to convey to him that the plan is still on. And that’s the coded message of “now you know how it feels to be denied”. It was not (at least not mainly) to humble his son or make him realize what he has done to Mariko. He went further and say “believe in your lord even when he seems to no longer believe in himself”. That was the most direct way of saying the plan is on without alerting any spy that there is even a plan.
Then there’s the exchange where Hiromatsu said to Toranaga that “you do believe in useless deaths” as a callback to episode one where he commits a retainer to death just for speaking out of turn towards Ishido. The understanding passed between them, and the deed is done. And Toranaga was left there with the impossible task of keeping his Mask on, not showing weakness, not grieving his friend, and convincing everyone that he was broken.
I think people are overseeing how great of a character Omi is in this episode especially.
The show did make him seem like the sleezy no-fun guy of the show that the audience should hate but if you really think deep into it and put your self into his shoes, he's actually the most reasonable and most human among the characters, ambition, shortcomings and all. I know a lot of people don't like him just because he's the only one in Toranaga's side that haven't warmed up to Blackthorne, but in that time period he had all the right to be wary and non-trusting of all foreigners. Actually, if you were in any part of Asia then it was advisable not to trust ALL foreigners the whole lot of them, especially not the Japanese themselves.
@@fraker12 I certainly don't hate Omi-sama, but I can't speak for the rest of the audience.
I also don't think the show presents him as a "sleezy-no fun guy", but as a young, ambitious man who, like his late friend Nagakado-sama, doesn't yet have enough experience to understand the intrigues and nefariousness of "big" politics.
He is loyal and tradition-conscious, but in my eyes just as "human" as the other characters. There are just differences in human behavior.
But perhaps in the "Western world", especially in Western Europe in this current "time period", we can learn something from his attitude: "be wary and non-trusting of ALL foreigners"!
It's hard enough to trust your "own" people.
Good point!
@@fraker12 日本人を信用しない方が賢明という考えは間違っています。ドラマでは按針が日本に漂流した際、日本人は酷い仕打ちをした様にドラマの演出上描かれてますが、実際は多くの日本人は彼等を手厚く保護し助けました。また広松の切腹も本来ドラマでは5人の家来がする事になってたものを広松役の西岡さんが虎永への忠誠心、またスパイを欺くために自ら広松はこうするだろうという提案をして決まったそうです。信用できない人は人種にかかわらずいるものでアジア人、また日本人を差別するのは辞めてください。ドラマの設定時代は日本では戦国時代です。国内で幾つもの権力争いが絶えなかった時代。その権力争いに終止符をうち天下統一、日本を一つにまとめ安泰な世の中にしたのが虎永（徳川家康）です。
虎永凄すぎると思うけど、本当の歴史の家康はもっとすごかった。
何十年も策を練って、機を待って、秀吉が死んだ段階ではもう全ての盤面をチェックメイトしていた。
秀吉も、信長でさえ家康の掌の上で踊っていたんだろうね。
Yes. I will add that Oda Nobunaga was a butcher. Toyotomi Hideyosh was too interested in his own ambition: invading Korea. Tokugawa Ieyasu brought peace to Japan, ending the Sengoku Period. Yes, he brought peace, and it was at a price. Nevertheless that is what he did.
だからこそ江戸時代が300年も続き江戸が世界一大きな都市になったんですね。
Buntaro's expressions this episode made me think I was watching a different person. I didn't think I would feel sorry for the guy but...I actually felt sorry for the guy. Solid acting in this series all around. 👍
Matcha can taste quite bitter so it's always important to eat some sweets to balance the palate. 🍵🍰🥧🍮
Last samurai was based on the story of a French soldier joining the samurai, they changed his character to American for the movie
I'm watching a few other reactions/discussions to this show but I should say Zakk's is surely the one I'm looking forward to every week.
Fan facts from Japan🇯🇵🇯🇵🇯🇵
Since Toranaga is a character portrayed based on Tokugawa Ieyasu, as a Japanese, I wondered if Toda hiromatu, who is giving this kind of advice to Toranaga during this period, is a character created based on Torii Mototada.
(Ieyasu spent a long time as a hostage in enemy territory from the age of 6 to 19, and Torii Mototada was an important vassal in Ieyasu's service from that time on. Torii Mototada was four years older than Ieyasu. (Ieyasu was 9 and Mototada 13 when they first met.)
But after looking at the character relationship chart and description in the Japanese version of Shougun, I see that Toda Hiromatu is a character modeled after Hosokawa Hujitaka.
This is a very surprising production from a Japanese point of view.
It is completely different from the facts actually recorded in Japanese history books and anecdotes passed down to the descendants of the warlords.
Hosokawa Fujitaka was a famous military commander born in Kyoto, the ancient capital of Japan, who later ruled Kumamoto Prefecture in the Kyushu region of southwestern Japan, where his ancestors were nobles.
His family was a bit unique among Japanese warlords and was respected and singled out by the Japanese poets of the time.
The reason is that the head of the Hosokawa family served as a kind of teacher to the emperors and nobles of Japan, teaching them the secrets of poetry composition, lost ancient poems, and etiquette that had been passed down from generation to generation from their ancestors.
This is the kind of origin and family environment he grew up in.
Taikou, a child of a farmer in Owari (present-day Nagoya City, Aichi Prefecture), geographically located in the center of Japan but far east of the ancient capital of Kyoto, originally a runaway and wandering peddler, and Ieyasu, a child of a small local lord in Mikawa (present-day Shizuoka Prefecture) further to the east, who spent a long time as a hostage in enemy territory. Ieyasu, who spent a long time as a hostage in enemy territory as a child of a small local lord in Mikawa (present-day Shizuoka Prefecture), further to the east, could not have known Taikou as a child.
At the age of 39, Hosokawa Fujitaka began serving Oda Nobunaga, a powerful Japanese warlord at the time who was on the verge of unifying Japan.
At that time, Taikou was one of the lowest-ranking servants of Nobunaga, from a commoner peddler to Nobunaga's stable keeper, horse caretaker, and straw sandal owner.
At the same time, Ieyasu was traveling around the country as an ally of Nobunaga, a good friend and brother-in-law, and a collaborator in the war effort.
It would be another 25 years before Hosokawa Fujitaka voluntarily began to approach Ieyasu, who was from a completely different class and family background.
During those 25 years, Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Taikou) rose rapidly up the ranks, like the famous French historical figure Napoleon Bonaparte, and died leaving behind numerous anecdotes.
Fujitaka Hosokawa did not approach Ieyasu until many years after Hideyoshi's (Taikou) death.
At the time when Shougun is supposed to take place, Hosokawa Fujitaka was not yet in a position to talk to Ieyasu in such a friendly manner, but rather was just observing the situation.
Incidentally, Hosokawa Fujitaka was a lord whom my ancestor served, and my maternal great-grandfather was one of the Hosokawa family's vassals and a retainer of the Hosokawa family who served the descendants of Fujitaka Hosokawa, the last samurai of My family.
My maternal grandfather and great-uncle called on the Hosokawa family vassals to gather in the hall of their home and decide to rebuild Kumamoto Castle, which had burned down during an air raid by the Allied Forces formed by the United States and European countries during World War II, as an expression of their longtime gratitude to the Hosokawa family and as a hope for the people of Kumamoto Prefecture to recover. He called for the Hosokawa family's vassals to gather in the hall of his house to show their gratitude to the Hosokawa family for their long years of service, and to express their hope for the reconstruction of Kumamoto Prefecture.
My maternal great-grandmother and grandmother, and then my mother, have told this story many times since I was a child, taking pride in my family for these facts and the fact that one of our ancestors was the birth mother of one of the Hosokawa family lords.
I am watching the video, wondering what they would say if they saw the way Fujitaka Hosokawa is portrayed in this drama.
I think that now is really an interesting time.
I find it interesting that no one really knows where history and fate will take us.
Japan and the U.S. used to be enemies, but now we are enjoying dramas about Japan's past events together like this.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598, so a lot can change in just 426 years.
To make matters worse, only 171 years have passed since the first American warship arrived in Japan and suddenly fired 100 blank shots into Tokyo Bay, demanding that Japan open its borders to the world.
But so much has happened in those 171 years.
We are watching this drama together now, but what will the world be like in the future?
It is impossible for anyone to predict, so I am going to live my life prepared for whatever may happen.
I want to live with the same resolve as they did, just as our ancestors maintained the same faith and spirit that they displayed in this drama throughout the long years before America and other foreign countries discovered Japan, and have always searched for the path to peace for their children and grandchildren.
This is not only what I think, but what most Japanese think in history class when they are students.
The part about Buntoro being denied to die is a call back to Mariko being denied by Buntoro because she wanted to die.
There is a deeper meaning to it. I think Buntaro's reason for wanting to die is that he wants to be loyal enough to die. Unfortunately, both Mariko and Hiromatsu consider Buntaro to be inconsiderate.
For the sake of a conspiracy... At the same time, if Toranaga rises up in arms, it will be a battle to commemorate Hiromatu and Nagakado. This will further boost everyone's morale.
Love the fact that Zakk is on the right side of history and condemning Stannis. Keep it up! Never forget!
Stannis is the best
@@leonrussell9607who the hell is Stannis
@@2yoyoyo1Unplugged the rightful king in game of thrones
Can someone explain to me why channels like this, with people who try to be funny and laugh at things that aren't supposed to be amusing, are generally more popular than channels who take shows seriously and deliver great commentary?
They just want your views
Most of them are annoying and you can see it in them that they’re not really interested and it just happens that show is popular so they should give it a try
None of them were there but they all knew he died from hitting his head on the rock, surprised no one accused the uncle of killing him
The courtesans were there, and Nagakado didn't come alone. Did they survive and then report? In addition, why would they both be at the brothel at the same time? In other words they wouldn't think Saeki went looking for Nagakado to kill would they. However, it makes sense that Nagakado went there to attack Saeki. In addition to all of this, sometimes for pacing, information such as this is left in the background and we are made to undertand motivations and reactions by what characters report about what happened and their reactions after the fact. In this case, everyone accepts he died the way he did, so the audience should too, given what I stated above.
Toranaga picked that land for the church on purpose. They thought they can "play" Toranaga; get the church and lie about trying to convert the Christian Bushos to Toranaga's side "they didn't try nor want to", but Toranaga was more cunning and ahead of them assigning a land next to a whorehouse.
I just loved your reaction to Hiromatsu’s seppuku!
Goshawk is a short winged bird of prey, therefore its actions are predictable, according to Toranaga. It’s the kind you use when you just want to cause maximum violence against a prey.
In the novel, goshawk is usually compared to peregrine falcon, which is a strategic hunter. In episode 1 Toranaga says that the peregrine falcon hides itself in the sun’s rays so its victim doesn’t know its being stalked until the very end.
It’s the difference between a hammer (goshawk) and a scalpel (peregrine falcon).
Blackthorne and Yabushige are goshawks, good for causing maximum damage and violence.
On the other hand, Mariko (and probably Hiromatsu, too) are peregrine falcons.
Goshawk is a hawk as name suggest. Hawks are not falcons. Hawks and falcons are not closely related, genetically parrots are closer to falcons than hawks.
The courtesan district was DEFINITELY placed next to the church out of a spiteful sense of humour.
Cacaruch is a mispronunciation of the spanish word for cockroach, cucaracha, or maybe that's how the english call it back then, I'm not sure lol.
Sen no Riku codified the tea ceremony in 1587, one of his best student, who became a grand master, was the real life model of Buntaro. The room is designed to show that no matter the station of the participants, we are all equal
文太郎のモデルは千利休ではありません。千利休は武士ではなく茶人です。おそらく文太郎のモデルは千利休の弟子の細川忠興(hosokawa tadaoki)
No, he is not. All samurai can make tea. It is learned at an early age as part of the Samurai etiquette.
Even the greatest samurai make tea for important people and guests.
@@user-xh6mk9dc1m Yes, he is a stand in for Hosokawa Tadaoki the husband of Akechi Tama (Hosokawa Gracia) who Mariko is based on.
@@archangel5110 Hosokawa Tadaoki, the model for Buntaro, was considered a Grand Master of the Tea Ceremony and was personally taught by Sen no Riku
笑うのはおかしいと思います。
怒りをと売り越して呆れるｗｗｗ
ほんとそれ。泣くの恥ずかしくて笑ってごまかしてる気もするけど。オツムが知れるよね
Some of us would like to know why Third street reactions aren’t reacting to X men 97 we get you’ve got a slate of other shows and schedule wise it can be difficult to fit a new one in but it’s such a good show and would bring so many Disney and X Men viewers to your channel and you guys reacting to it would be good to do now before the show ends in 5 episodes but just a thought we’d love to see Shane & Zack from Third street REACT TO X MEN 97 🥰🥰
i think it makes Hiro's death a little easier to remember that they were all going to die had they surrendered. Hiro? more like Hero
The spirit of Hiromatsu is the spirit of the Japanese kamikaze special attack units in World War II. It may be difficult to understand, but I want people in the West to understand it too.
Your explanation was much better than others - I think because you aren’t condescending, lol
In ye olde days catholic converts would choose a "christian" (meaning European) name upon being baptized. Mariko chose "Maria", which is why Alvito refers to her as "Lady Maria"
Yes and is why she would not commit seppuku. The thing she wanted was not death but to be free of Buntaro.
Powerful Episode! I think it's time for war🇯🇵⚔️🤘
It's hard to understand at your level. As long as you try to stand up at your own level. You can not go to a higher stage. There is respect there, listen to the words, there is also a meaning between words. If you can't afford to understand, you'll laugh and run away right away. Don't you have time to shut up and try to understand? It looks like a puppy in the window.
Tubular.
I'm surprised you guys are having so much fun watching this story. Perhaps you are a film production professional? We Japanese enjoy this story, but we don't do it with pleasure, but with deep emotion.
By some of the other comments I would say the Japanese aren’t alone in this.
@@GreyFawkes It’s entertainment piece, so I won’t deny that it’s enjyoyable. There ware no funny moments in this story for me.
@@dpcman1962 we grew up differently and have a very “all-encompassing” sense of humor - some people don’t get it but we enjoy the hell out of the show nonetheless.
とてもよく分かります。私もそう思いました。
@@GreyFawkes I understand what you say.
And we will not deny you.
However, I thought You might enjoy this story more!
Press "F"for the First Fujiless episode.
The awfully low amount of fujiness in the last two episodes has been quite a issue for me.
Get used to it, she is also not in the last two.
I won’t be surprised. In fact, I will be happy if she is not in the fight but is safe and secure.
Hiromatsu広松 loves Toranaga
I taught that to my son
Buntaro文太郎 and Mariko鞠子 will die together for Toranaga虎永
besides the whiteguy
I am Japanese
It reminded me of the movie "The Last Samurai".
Japanese Emperor says to Tom Cruise, "Tell me how Ken Watanabe died!" Tom Cruise replied, I'll tell you how he lived."
Cruise says that his proof is in the fact that he lived.
The seppuku scene in this SHOGUN drama is only realistic , so I don't deny his decision.
It is the Japanese answer to death, which I think is difficult for foreigners to understand.
Tea lessons: Cha is the Korean/ Japanese/ Chinese word for tea (it’s all pretty similar, even in Hindi it’s chai) matcha is unroasted tea leaves pulverized and drank whole… green tea is the same leaves but steeped in water then taken out and black tea is the same leaves except roasted
Why toranaga didnt tell to his friend? That would solve everything
There’s actually a very important audience hand-holding moment that is very easily overlooked which happened when Anjin had an audience with Yabushige: it’s when the samurai said “Since he is a foreigner, I will overlook this mistake”
For context, at the end of Ep7, Blackthorne spoke out of turn and walked out on an important meeting. For that he should have been ordered to commit seppuku to redeem his honour; or had been beheaded as a common criminal.
Instead Toranaga tells him through Mariko that “his services are completed” and returned his rutters (no actual mention of returning the ship and guns) AND that his consort will take care of all his estates (which, by rights he could have been stripped of).
Back to Yabushige’s line: this shows to the audience what the Japanese disposition towards the Englishman is. He will continuously be ignored and underestimated by the Japanese. Therefore, Blackthorne can be an ace (or at least a wildcard) that Toranaga can guide and manipulated into position and put into play without anyone suspecting anything. This is also why the rutters were intentionally given before coming into Edo, and why he was housed outside Toranaga’s palace: to completely sell that even Toranaga see’s no value in the foreigner.
This guys reaction to seppuku.....haha
I will die on this hill and I know I would get a lot of flak for this given that I have a male portrait:
I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down.
1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better)
2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there.
3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life.
we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty.
Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest"
Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel.
And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
Yes, it is clear you are no writer. Her character arc and dialogue work perfectly within the context of the story and culture of the time. She gave him respect within the context of the tea ceremony and she was brutally honest. That's what adults do. The tea ceremony is about bounding and inner peace. However, there is no bound and peace between them, yet he asks her to die with him.
The tea ceremony itself is performed with action and few words. In this scene, a tension or dichotomy was introduced that works wonderfully. The polarities of respect and a refusal were contained perfectly in the scene.
What she did to him? You are holding up a false equivalence between his beating of her and her rejecting him through her words.They are both adults and samurai. Putting it crudely, she ripped the bandage off. "Buntaro, there is no bound between us, and there never will be." Some would call that compassion.
@@Rabbithole8 ok. Now this is a well thought out argument that I completely respect. Except for the last part. Let me just clarify and so that what I am saying is not misconstrued, the point I was making was that Mariko looked down on Buntaro long before the marriage and long before any alleged abuse, physical or otherwise took place. She scorned him for a Marriage that her father arranged exactly for her safety. Toranaga clarified his misunderstanding and yet she remains spiteful and petty in that tea ceremony. For the nth time, I am in complete agreement in Mariko rejecting Buntaro’s suggestion of the double suicide. The only thing I am remarking on is her choice of words in doing so, in a high stress situation, with the stakes so high, to break him at that moment. If it were in any other situation, I might be completely on board with you. But otherwise, your argument is actually solid, on of the few counter arguments that is well thought out and maturely constructed. Thank you for the perspective.
@@khaii13 You made it clear that you were not justifying or excusing Buntaro's vile behavior. I wasn't dismissing that. My point is that harsh words in light of his behavior is all he deserves, yet Mariko also shows him respect. So, I think you are confused here. It seems to me that you are giving Buntaro more credit then he is due regarding the marriage and his personality. Not only is he abusive towards Mariko, he is very cruel and cold towards their son. Despite this, Buntaro at the tea ceremony recalls a time in their marriage in which they were both happy, and Mariko doesn't deny this but states that is so long ago she can hardly remember. This contradicts what you have stated about Mariko and their marriage at the start. Also, after Blackthorn strongly suggests that Buntaro should treat his wife with more respect he makes it clear that she is contemptible because of what her father's murder of his daimyo. He holds that over her head even though she is of a noble family. She merits more. Mariko tells Blackthorn that she does not give Buntaro her hatred because that is what he merits. Going back to the tea ceremony she compliments him on his masterful performance because that is what he merits, but nothing more. She is under no obligation to give him anything more, and for some reason you interpret that as cruelty, pettiness etc. At any rate, we probably still disagree but there's nothing wrong with that.
@@Rabbithole8 thanks for the clarification, and yes, we are still in disagreement. But the thing is, that doesn’t mean I think you’re wrong. Everything I mentioned in the OP can be fact checked in the show itself, and is contained in the show in itself.
You raise valid points also, and the only thing we seem to disagree with would be the cultural context here. If this was a show where there are Caucasians or is set in Europe or America, then your arguments are culturally appropriate. But in a traditional Asian context, not so much.
I won’t repeat what I wrote down already in the OP, but let’s focus on one specific thing for now:
Aketchi Jinsai married Mariko off to the Toda clan to keep her alive. But from the start she sneered at Buntaro, before any verbal abuse or violence started. Then she converted to Christianity after her father betrayed his liege lord Kuroda. He would have been honour-bound to divorce her then, or even commit her to death. Now he is a Mariko simp so he won’t kill her. But, even if he wanted to divorce her, given that she is part of Toranaga’s plans, do you honestly think he would have allowed it in the early days of their marriage? Toranaga only dared Buntaro to divorce her after twelve years because she is already infatuated with someone else that would prevent her from committing suicide right away. That is why Buntaro said “not now, after all these years”. Because divorce is also a matter of honour then; it’s not as simple as modern western divorce courts where “I am not happy anymore, let’s get a divorce”. Family takes precedence, the clan takes precedence, the legacy takes precedence over personal happiness.
So if you look at this Asian lens, you will see that being vicious, for the sake of viciousness, towards a man whom you have treated coldly and drove into a corner of bitterness and resentment despite the fact that you now know that it’s your fathers plan now is still unjustified; just like Buntaro actually hitting Mariko is inexcusable. That kind of argument is based on petty sentimentalism and emotionality, instead of logic and justice. And that’s fine.
@@khaii13 First of all I am quite aware of the Asian cultural context, and in fact it is you have made an attribution error here not I. Shinnosuke Abe is Japanese and Anna Sawai's parents are Japanese and she was raised in Tokyo. Hiroyuki Sanada, is of course Japanese, and the list goes on. The Japanese script itself is edited by an expert in period Japanese so that it is authentic to the time. You would think that one Japanese person, one expert, one Japanese expert would agree with your take it if is true. On a personal level, I've been living in Japan for 15 years. I know something about Japanese culture, and I check my understanding by looking to my Japanese family and friends.
As far as divorce during the Sengoku Period, men had the right to divorce their wives at anytime and there was no social stigma involved whatsoever. Women did not have any such right. It is true that at times this was a bit more complicated for the Samurai class. Yes, political and social connections mattered but you are exaggerating. In reality the real Buntaro, Hosokawa Tadaoki, simply divorced his wife Akechi Tama.
Yes, we both can look at the narrative and dialogue, and I disagree with your interpretation. The episode in question with the flashback, "Ladies of the Willow World" with the so called "sneering" did not happen. They both looked at each other stone faced. In fact Mariko was smiling at her father and as she turned to Buntaro he was staring at her with no emotion. That is when her smile evaporated. You misrepresented that as "sneering." It is you who are projecting your own emotion onto the scene. The flashback focuses on Mariko and Rui (Ochiba no Kata) being powerless, being ordered to marry whomever their fathers choose. Again, you must deal with the dialogue at the tea ceremony in which they both agreed they were happy at the start.
The series does not make it clear if the Taiko banned Christianity as Toyotomi Hideyoshi did. At any rate, Hideyoshi changed his stance and all were free to covert to Christianity. In reality, Akechi Tama's conversion to Christianity put a strain on her marriage, but that aspect no longer mattered after Hideyoshi's change of heart. Again, in the series there is no indication that Christianity was under any ban for a period of time. And, since Toranaga has no issue with Christianity, Buntaro may not like it, but he would tolerate it. The issue with religion was a question of alliances. This was mainly with Buddhist sects and not Christianity in Japan as the Catholic Church tried to be neutral and any alliance was to safeguard its survival. The issue at the time were the alliances of two sects of Pure Land Buddhism (Joudo-shu) . One sect, True Pure Land Buddhism (Joudo Shinshu) gave rise to the Ikkou-ikki who opposed the Tokugawa. So, if Akechi Tama converted to that sect, it would be a problem. This aspect is hinted at when Toranaga and Hiromatsu note that the woman assassin belonged to the Amida Sect.
It is you who lack understanding of the Japanese cultural lens, that is absolutely clear, and are the one who is infusing this with your emotion. You are committing a fundamental attribution error. One major piece of evidence for this is the so called sneer which did not happen. Rather than attributing a combination of external factors and the personal dynamics of both Buntaro and Mariko, you have overemphasized the dispositional or personality factors of Marko.
Has anyone watched DUNE Part 2? In both DUNE and SHOGUN, Paul and Toranaga lead their clans, but they handle populism very differently. Paul used the Fremen's strong religious beliefs to become a prophet, but now there's a risk that their fanaticism could spiral out of control, posing a danger to both them and Paul himself. Toranaga regained control over his discontented subordinates by having Granpa speak for them and orchestrating seppuku.
I haven’t watched either part yet. I know Zakk watched Dune part 1, haven’t asked him about part 2 yet
I want to watch "ガンニバル" Season 2…
Hiromatsu's death is one of the best things that have happened on TV this year, BUT I wish there was no suspense about Toranaga's motivations. We all fucking know the dude is not gonna give up.
Hiromatsu's seppuku had great meaning because Yabushige could not understand his intentions. In other words, it has been revealed who is betraying Toranaga.
You don't seem to understand the depth of Japanese thinking.
During World War II, Japan inflicted tremendous damage on the United States,
which boasted an overwhelming amount of supplies.
It seems like you don't understand the essence.
They’d have lost eventually - the US dropped the bombs for Russia’s eyes only.
I agree with you. I don't think they will understand the tea room scene. This is because it has the meaning of haiku(not Poem) and that all people are equal in a tea room(Sado).
the death of hiromatsu and his son isnt part of the plan, if they trusted toronaga from the start they coulve lived. I think hiromatsu understood toronaga's plan too late. He needed to fool his allies in order to fool his enemies.
He need time to freeing other daimyo in the osaka's castle with mariko on the plan
The time Hiromatsu interjected was when one retainer put his hands on his wakizashi. It was a way to deescalate. Otherwise more blood would have been shed in that meeting.
Also, Hiromatsu made a huge error earlier in the episode when he told the contingent of samurai waiting outside the preliminary meeting that Toranaga will attack since he would not send the priest back to Osaka with the message otherwise. Spies could be everywhere and there might be a spy within their ranks; that was a careless leak of communication.
The defeat and surrender needed to be sold and make their enemies overconfident and complacent. And what best way to convince the enemy than to convince your allies. And what better sacrifice than his own right hand man, who, in dying sells the defeat and makes up for the aforementioned mistake.
Also, that was why Hiromatsu called Buntaro to second him, not Yabushige or any of those senior looking retainers. He had to convey to him that the plan is still on. And that’s the coded message of “now you know how it feels to be denied”. It was not (at least not mainly) to humble his son or make him realize what he has done to Mariko. He went further and say “believe in your lord even when he seems to no longer believe in himself”. That was the most direct way of saying the plan is on without alerting any spy that there is even a plan.
Then there’s the exchange where Hiromatsu said to Toranaga that “you do believe in useless deaths” as a callback to episode one where he commits a retainer to death just for speaking out of turn towards Ishido. The understanding passed between them and the deed is done. And Toranaga was left there with the impossible task of keeping his Mask on, not showing weakness, not grieving his friend, and convincing everyone that he was broken.
guys, its not that deep, toronaga literally said hiromatsu understood his part, meaning it was part of the whole plan. THIS IS crimson sky in play. it is why toronaga hesitated at first to resort to crimson sky, because it required hiromatsu to give up his life.
I don’t think John’s shipmate cares about appropriation, especially not in this day. I think he felt like John left them behind for Japan. More in line with modern day nationalistic conservative thinking, rather than modern liberal thinking, if you’re making the comparison.
Though I think it’s hard to compare such different time periods in such a way, and I’m probably inviting brutal internet warfare from all sides by even trying
I thought it was a joke.
There is no peace without war
Let your vassals fight and die
虎永...he doesn't give up
Toranaga teamed up Yabushige(藪重) and Anjin.(按針)
My brother's army also joins in.
A large army joins in
An army of over 100,000 people
Bit of advice first time viewing your channel. I know your job is to provide reactions so you’re wanting to constantly react but when something is getting deep just be quiet and wait till after the scene to start blabbering no way you actually can take what’s going on in therefor it’s a half ass reaction
“Half Ass Reactions” sounds like a pretty good channel name - or we could use it for merchandising!
If people really understood what it meant, they wouldn't be laughing and commenting.
Facts: Shogun novel is not historical accurate, what it takes from the history is only the timeline, it ignores the details of the good based characters during the near end of Japan Feudal era. Disappointing for historical, good for fantasy.
Yoshi's son is not actually dead in real history since he will inherit the title Shogun after Yoshi ended the war.
The Taiko's Osaka castle is based on the Taiko's predecessor Goroda's Azuchi castle, since Azuchi castle was burned down.
Azuchi Castle is the first castle in Japan with the largest keep.
Tokugawa Hidetada who was the second Shogun of the Tokugawa Shogunate was the 3rd son of Tokugawa Ieyasu. Granted, his first son commited seppuku on Ieyasu's order(age 20) and the second son was given for adoption to Hideyoshi.
@@Warhaawk You are right bud, but what I said is true, since the novel version of Hidetada is Nagkado that's why I said he will inherit it.
Was it Nobuyaso Matsudaira right? The eldest son of Ieyasu I forgot.
@@Warhaawk It's safe to say it's true to history, although it's true that there are occasional arrangements.
@@Warhaawk
Well, Ieyasu ordered it because Oda Nobunaga demanded, because of his daughter who was Ieyasu's first son's wife. He had no choice, otherwise he'd have to fight Nobunaga. It was a sad story, and for real, not a movie story.
The reason James Clavell changed the names of the actual historical figures is that he fictionalized the history. However, it is historically accurate in some respects and not others as it does capture some of the aspect of the actual people such as Willam Adams and Hosokawa Gracia, as well as general aspects of the end of the Sengoku Period. The series includes greater accuracy with the addition of many details true to the period. The exclusion of Toranaga's other sons was probably done to increase the tension of the aftermath of Nagakado's death. In the book, Toranaga's third son is named Yoshi Sudara. Tokugawa Ieyasu's third son is Tokugawa Hidetada. Hidetada succeeds Ieyasu as Shogun.
I'm not sure what the linage of castle design from Oda Nobunaga's Azuchi Castle to Osaka Castle has to do with anything, but OK.
あなたたちリアクションに向いてないよ
お黙りなさいませ。
what are the odds? i literally typed your channel to see if you've posted this episode's reaction and it said "posted 3 minutes ago" lol
"like it was meant to be"
TH-cam has to believe that your defeat is real
@@m.nurkholis3695 never
28:22 😂😂😂😂😂😂