@@AnonymousGentooman I would often lug my entire Desktop computer to my college's dorm-loung to connect it to the TV in there and watch movies or youtube with friends.
@@AnonymousGentooman There are tiny cases that you can build in now, though that takes some extra knowledge and much more careful component selection. But you can really build a high end gaming PC in the space not much larger than a console(more specifically, there are ones under a cubic feett). Something to consider for your next upgrade. The stuff that will never get portable would be the monitor. But those are much cheaper to have one at each end. Same with KB&M, speakers etc. Not that they are heavy or anything, but it's a hassle. I mean for the original topic, for example, the trouble was never just lugging around the console, for example. It's the console, the controllers, the cables, potentially the TV and whatever else. That is the hassle.
@@AnonymousGentooman You can probably get a 20-40 bucks 1080 60 monitor and a 5-10 bucks set of KB&M off of ebay or craiglist to put in your dad's place. A set of cable too while at it for another 5-15 maybe. So all you have to do is take the PC itself each time and plug the cable into that, which is only half a dozen things. Granted, I don't know if there is sufficient desk space available to be simply reserved for having the preferrals just sitting around in your dad's place.
"Once Magic Online came out, Eye of Judgment was doomed" Magic Online came out a full six years *before* Eye of Judgment, in 2001. Eye of Judgment was doomed not from the start, but well before the start.
Technically, that means he was right: The moment Magic Online came out, EoJ was already doomed, even if it didn't exist yet. EoJ: _comes out_ MO: Omae wa mou shindeiru.
I had one by a hobby store next to me. But the vendors just sold the duel terminal cards at a premium to avoid making players use it. Which was a shame. The Yusei Bike Mini-Game was cool.
I want to find a duel terminal and use it till the damn thing ran out of cards. The game wud be fun and there r duelterminal cards that i want. Ive always found arcades fun and have spent up to 2 hours at once at an arcade building b4.
They were overrated and you'd be even LUCKIER if it was an an "honest" store. The only store I ever went to that had a duel terminal got called out for swiping the highest rarity cards they ordered for their duel terminal and selling them on Ebay instead of putting them in the machine
The most successful "board game tcgs" that exist, exist in a video game format primarily. I remember that the Dungeon Dice Monsters GBA game got a good bit of traction and is still considered one of the best Yugioh games released. As is Yugioh: Duelists of the Roses which is about moving cards around a board. I thing the big thing is that, like you said, they gained traction because they were a one and done thing and self-contained, being a video game and all.
Duelists of the Roses itself was based on an arc of the Yugioh manga where the card game was mostly based on Moncolle, which was a game where cards made up the field and movement around the field was paramount. And that's not what killed that game - Set Rotation did.
I feel like if they made a modern duelist of roses and put effort into balancing it, and it was like a master duel type game-- it would be wildly successful. With updates and set releases and all that. No need for a banlist either, just patch.
There's one issue with "Skill Challenge" games that (sadly) wasn't addressed here and is a big reason games like Magic have avoided such things since the days of Chaos Orb. Players with disabilities. Skill challenge games exclude people with disabilities by their very nature.
i also personally think that most ccg players aren't intrested in phycical skill games. if one was intrested in that, why wouldn't they just play golf or a similar sport instead?
Well, the other problem with "skill challenge" games, as Kohdok pointed out, is that those stuff appeal more as a novelty for children/the younger demographic than to a more dedicated player base.
So do sports. It’s not a moral ill to develop a game ‘system’ that not everyone can participate in since by our very nature not everyone can do anything, someone will always be excluded. Sometimes that is just how it is, it’s not the developer’s fault that some people can’t engage in what would be considered fine for someone without a relevant disability. This is not an argument against accessibility or the development of tools and methods to improve accessibility, it’s an argument against preventing development of good things that have potential to be inaccessible since it’s de facto argument for improper limitation. Quick and flawed example: It’s not Wizard’s fault that the blind can’t read their cards, developmentally disabled can’t understand the rulings, etc. However, what is objectionable is something like Magic’s ruling that “There's no maximum deck size, as long as you can shuffle your deck in your hands unassisted”. If you’re one handed, have small hands, missing digits, etc. then an imposition has been placed on you that has nothing to do with the playing of the game provided you can otherwise manipulate the cards. You could play just fine if you provided your own card shuffler, but that ruling is worded in such a way that ‘you’ must be able to do it, so you can’t play that format.
Another problem with skill games is that they are very hard to regulate in sanctioned play. Players may end up coming up with ways to cheese the skill aspect of the game rendering that aspect moot for those who know how to cheese it and either a revision would need to come out to address it or you end up with a very unbalanced tcg (since the skill ceiling to make OP moves have essentially been removed) I feel like the rules need to be specific on how you're supposed to execute the skill challenge. Also on the note of using cards as game pieces to move around a grid, I speak from experience of my First tcg prototype being exactly this...it was not fun to play AT ALL for a number of reasons and movement was one of them
"It also can't be a thing where we like step aside to play something else" *Plays marbles with bakugan* "We don't want something that keeps the opponent waiting" *Struggles to close krakelios ultra for 20min*
The rolling aspect really doesn't take away too much time from from the rest of the game and is performed right there between the two players. Though the difficulty of closing Bakugan was pretty poorly thought out and was addressed by Spinmaster in Armored Alliance by simplifying many of the closing processes.
There are many card games that if they were made for online play , added a story mode where you unlock cards and can pay for booster packs that contain exclusive skins they would make a lot of money from it
Funny story as a kid me and my dad played ygo together. I saw the dungeon dice episodes then saw them in the store. My father ever wise said “son I promise no one will have one and they’ll stop making them.” He bought me more ygo cards instead. Boy was he right.
My friends and I honestly love dungeon dice monsters. We even made homemade figures and printed copies of all the cards from online images. It is definitely different from the tcg but it is a blast to play
Honestly I feel like the reason DDM failed so hard was the gimmicky unique dice mecanics. Adding a 3rd component, grid movement, to a TCG could be something worth exploring further
What’s ironic about Bakugan is... They suck at distributing cards for a trading *card* game. It’s usually the game pieces, but you can easily waltz on over to AP the nearest Walmart or Target and buy enough for a basic game, but not the actual trading card game. Now you CAN order them online. Just pay 100 bucks for a single pack. Yeah.
I wish you could buy Bakugan boosters at my LGS, alongside maybe a basic starter set. Even if you have to get more toys only at big box stores, having the cards be sold in card stores would really help the game scene.
Andrew Foose The problem is bakugan isn’t popular enough. Maybe if there was some video game that helps connect the entire community that wants to play bakugan, along with advertising to other players so that local game stores will make bakugan more profitable because they are still a business. Plus, selling booster packs at lgs ALONG with selling them at retails helps heaps. But no, let’s just do a stupid decision.
i used to play bakugan as a kid (like around 7 or 8) and me and my friends never even saw a bakugan card, just the little plastic toys. though whether this is up to lack of distribution or wether we were stupid little childred i dunno.
When I was a 7th grader I made a board/card game out of Animorphs where players would race to the final zone to beat the aliens first. You would choose a character to represent on the board and move with a dice roll on a track of panels across different environments picking up animals from a shuffled Morph Deck to use to fight enemies on panels you land on and to move through the particular environment zone from forest to mountains to ocean. If you rolled a dice and landed on a panel with an enemy you would have to defeat the enemy before rolling to move again. The biggest morphs would do the most damage but some morphs don't work in certain zones. And some morphs carry other advantageous abilities.
One thing to note is that Eye of Judgement got a fully digital version, a PSP with the same game and mechanics, so if you wanted to play the game, you could just pick that up cheaper and not have to worry about the card cost.
I love the video! But i wanted to throw this out there: when my brother and I started playing keyforge, we used pocket change for the pieces. Quarters were keys, pennies were amber, and the extra change would act as buffs/whatever else we needed. Hell Ive used paperclips for amber, Ive used my actual house keys as the keys in KeyForge. I agree they shouldn’t advertise you only need the deck, but as someone who has spent hours and hours playing KeyForge, I found it almost charming to play with household items rather than the official pieces :)
Tbh season 1 key forge was easily done with just dice. As me and my fiance bought a couple dozen decks when it released, And own hundreds of various colored dice. Twas easy. And if that's not your jam, There's a free phone app for tracking amber and keys, and stun was flipping creature upside down. But every new set requiring new token types?? That's just creating logistic complexity, soon the token types will become kinda unwieldy, And is the budding of an issue that will plague them years down the line.
Yeah his Keyforge one is a little unfair, my locals sell the starter set for $25 which includes the pieces and two decks. I'll buy the starter set for the box of each set and usually have the small pieces in a box for ppl to use if they need it.
I feel less bad about owning roughly 50 Myself knowing I'm not alone xD Me and my fiance love this game. I think the issue is less that the game is particularly impossible to do without dice, I also pretty much exclusively use dice xD But that every set brings new token types to the table, which increases the level of logistics intrinsic to the game. At some point this will hit a critical mass, and become unsustainable. It clearly is perfectly sustainable Currently, but if their feature creep includes a creep of required physical components, then the game slowly becomes less and less accessible. I kinda gathered that his point was increased Logistic complexity grows exponentially bad. Which is a too-oft ignored game design rule. But keyforge is creating this issue for their future selves, i'd argue it isn't there yet, and currently is fine.
@@feliciaamore1105 It's funny because I play it with a family member who caught on to it quickly. They used dice the last time I played them and I like huh that's a good idea lol. But yeah I agree, Fantasy flight keeps adding in logistics intrinsic to the game. I think it was a yr ago they talked about adding in mini figures at some point. Which might be a little too much for me at that point.
Have a few decks from my short time in Keyforge,and never bothered to buy a starter set. I printed out keys 'cards' and life trackers, and used beads from craft stores for amber. I haven't thought using sets of dice though, might try that should I play again in the future.
"you can't just play with the cards" And like that years upon years of using differently colored dice, slips of paper with effects written on, and different coinage were erased from my life.
I kinda expected you to mention Yugioh's "Master Rule 4" at some point since the game made placement important since the introduction of Link Monsters. Though Yugioh has an alternative to requiring the playmat to have the layout of it all: Instead you just put a "Field Center" and from there it should be sorta easy to tell where each card is supposed to be at (and that's kinda intriguing considering you have 5 rows and 5 columns in this board not counting the Field Spell Zone).
I started writing a Vrains fanfic with a Nexus Deck as that Field Center that you could access by pointing at it with a Link Monster Vrains ended... Haven't finished it XD
I think I get why it wasnt mentioned. The Board Game offshoots he mentioned didnt just have an arrangement of cards that move position, they actually REQUIRED a field in order to play. That NFL game had cards dedicated to making the field and did nothing else, you couldn't slide your controlled cards across the table, you had to put them on top of those cards.
Not even just with Link Monsters, they've had positional effects for a long time. At least as far back as the GX era when I first got into it, if not even earlier. Things like effects where a monster could move itself left or right to unoccupied monster zones on your field and/or have effects that referenced the "column" (the vertical line of card zones from your spell/trap zone to your opponent's spell/trap zone) and if there were other cards lined up with that card or not. Essentially making Monster Cards designed to move around the field like a board game piece looking for openings in the physical layout of the opponent's card location choices. Sure, experienced players can have the base layout memorized and wouldn't need an actual visual field and things like the Main/Extra Deck, Graveyard, or Field Zone can kind of go wherever you want them to, but a new player seeing effects like those would absolutely need a physical field to understand how those effects work.
@@reperfan4 Yes, that is true. But it should be noted, that until Link's, it was very rare you would see anyone use those cards. In my entire time playing YGO(from the original set) to now. I never saw anyone use those cards. Even in the Link format, a lot of them still sat, abandoned.
Yugioh does have quite a bit of the board game element. The addition of cards like Mekk-Knights, link monsters, and Infinite Impermanence made the exact positioning of cards on the field very important.
nowadays, that is if the deck you are playing uses Link monsters. With fusion, xyz and synchro now being able to use normal monster zones to be summoned on, you only take importance of positioning for a link's effect or to summon a pendulum from the Extra Deck
@@promisnwekenta9703 when I made that reply my mind goes to how link monsters used to be mandatory and now they aren't it's not exactly funny and I'm not really making any sense, but cut me some slack mn I'm like 12 or something
The strangest thing about Eye of Judgment to me is that Magic Online was around for *years* before this game came out, even made by the same company. It could've easily just been an all digital game and could've been really cool, they had the experience with digital card games to make it happen. At the same time though, if was the era of the Wii, everyone wanted to have gimmicks, and Sony needed to sell the Eye Toy somehow. Though, I will say, now in 2020 I've been seeing a lot of people playing Commander and other Magic formats over Webcams, I wonder if a game that better makes use of the physical-digital interaction would be more viable today on PC, or if there's just no real reason to with so many great digital TCGs.
4 ปีที่แล้ว +5
Magic over webcam is a terrible experience, honestly just use cockatrice or something.
To be fair, the rise of webcam commander is due to the pandemic. It was niche before, but once just going to the card store or a friend's house for a couple of games becomes a health issue, it was only going to go up.
"even by the same company" Wong: Sony made EoJ themselves, while MGO was made first by Leaping Lizard, with Wizards adding later on. And you're confusing things: The Eye Toy was made for the PS2. The camera of the PS3 was the Playstation Eye. Also, the Eye was also part of the Playstation Move bundle: The glowing maraca heads on the Move would be read by the PS Eye to get the actual position, while movement would be read through the internal gyro, basically trying to advance the mechanics of the Wiimote.
I actually checked after seeing the video... yeah, it's still a fail: WotC makes the cards, but the game itself was Sony's idea and they likely only ask WotC to make the physical cards... which is all they make from my investigation.
As someone who has played this game for over a decade, including about 8 years competitively, I can attest that Yugioh is mostly alive due to its sheer uniqueness making it fun as all hell. It's weird, its old rules text and design philosophy used to be garbage, and it's definitely pretty hard to get into competitively, but goddamn is it a party
I come from the future, avoid season 5 the reason is SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . She somehow comes into money and stops being relentlessly poor, which is kinda nice because having been poor she uses the extra cash to help charities and the like, but it becomes a different show and she goes back to being poor to maintain status quo before season 6's foreshadow plot even starts.
There is one effective, albeit HORRENDOUSLY tedious solution to the redekai problem. Sleeves. Just sleeve the entire deck, and play as normal, but unsleeve them as you place them on the field. Then resleeve them when the game is over.
I know of a card game where you have to move your cards around the board. It's an Argentine game called Enadrya and the principle of it is that you have a board of 3 rows and 7 columns where you can place your cards and move them vertically or horizontally towards an Offensive and Defensive zone. How many spaces you can move depends on a speed stat from 1 to 3 that every card has, which also determines in what part of the board you can place it (some cards can start at the front outright while others start from the back and have to move forward). I really haven't played it but I remember buying a starter deck when it was just starting back in 2011 cause the concept interested me.
To be fair with Keyforge we used dice to track aember, damage, and the various buffs. We also positioned cards differently for the various status effects. Now I know it’s not official to use dice but FFG does allow you to use different custom things to track that stuff. So when I play Keyforge with people at work we usually just bring our decks and the dice that usually come with Pokémon elite boxes. So in retrospect you only need to do the one deck buy in and have a few dice lying around. That’s how we play it and get newcomers into it cause they only have like a 12 dollar buy in. Now I do have starter sets and agree it’s a little bit easier but I hate bringing components into work so I mostly play with just dice. Also with the newer sets with new mechanics we had to improvise a bit but we make it work with just a deck and dice. I do agree though the wording should be phrased differently but it is totally possible to enjoy Keyforge with the one deck. That’s how I sell em to newcomers that see us playing and wanna try it. But anyway love this series and another great video! Look forward to the next.
I honestly would love to get into Dungeon Dice Monsters if they attempt to tweak design and make it better. We never got any of the product in my side of my country so I guess it's not a marketable product either. I just like the idea of dice becoming a board.
The US version was inferior anyway. In Japan, the dice did actually fold out so they could make each monster have its own faces and such. In the US, the conversion was outsourced and all the corners were cut. The dice were standardized and boilerplate and came in the starter kit, as well as being regular dice instead of the fancy kind that fold out. Instead cardboard pieces representing how the dice unfold are used instead.
Me just discovering this series today and binge watching, only to be met with the episode before the finale: HOW DOES IT END!? *Waits silently for next episode*
Regarding a card game where you move your cards around on a field: I think the fact that the Fire Emblem card game, based on a Turn Based Strategy Game, didn't do this is pretty telling that it can't work. Instead, it simplifies it to just a back row and front row that your cards can move between.
To be fair, they learned from experience. There was a card game for that back during the YGO craze (prior to the west’s introduction to Fire Emblem) that had a formation system. The game flopped pretty hard. The reasons were namely too much complexity (it had the sins in this video) but also stock art that didn’t really work well as a card.
There was an older Fire Emblem TCG (Japan only of course) that was a 3x3 grid. It released a couple sets, I dunno how well it did really. It had another issue which is arguably a sin: Extremely boring starter set.
I haven't played, but Anna's Roundtable is a fan game that looks like it does a decent job of using cards as board pieces. It's in the middle of a mild legal shake-up, but the TTS mod is still available and the creator said a PnP will be ready in a few months. Take a look!
In my experience a lot of skill challenge games run into the issue of them being messy physical things. Like with skill claw and bakugan, at what point do you release the thing? Are you going to call a judge to see if someone went over the line like a football foul?
it seems like having dexterity mechanics that involve physical objects could fall into the same trappings of accessibility as Smash Melee with controllers. If you only have access to certain controllers, you could unknowingly be limiting the possibility to perform certain techniques based on your equipment alone. It doesn't seem bad in bakugan, it's just a marble that opens, but in that claw game you can't really play if your claw doesn't work right
The worst part of Eye of judgement, at least in my experience, was that additional expansions were locked behind not just a physical card purchase, but an additional DLC purchase, which means that you could end up with a whole deck of cards that wouldn't work with the game unless you were willing to pay even more
I've only just found this channel, and I've never really been into physical cardgames. But I really love watching videos about game design, no matter what kind of game it is. Anyway, it seems like a lot of these games could benefit from being digital rather than physical. Physical cardgames have their place, but when your game requires players keeping track of stat boosts, status effects, resources transferring from turn to turn, etc, it'll become too much for the player to keep track of. A digital cardgame can keep track of this stuff for you, and actually change the text on the card to reflect a buff (ie. you give a card +4 attack, now it says it deals 20 damage instead of 16). Meanwhile, a physical cardgame requires you to use tokens and stuff to keep track of that. Physical cardgames seem to have a problem of designers over-doing things and forgetting that they're not making a computer game. It seems that a lot of cardgames fail to play to their limitations, which is a shame because limitation is what breeds creativity.
HELL YES! That game was the absolute best. Although, I think it helped alot that every player only had one card that they had to move around. Also, one thing the game had going for it, and for me personally this was a huge deal, is the fact that there were no randomized booster packs. The fact that there was a ceiling to how much money you would need to spend in order to acquire games pieces was a huge deal.
Usually when we play commander within our squad we use mobile app for tracking our life points and other counters (like storm or poison). It's incredibly handy, as we need less dice, and absolutely free.
On the Dungeon Dice Monsters bit, I remember thinking it was a pretty cool concept but it had more limitations IRL. -The die had to fold/unfold and were easy to break, and unlike the anime/manga you couldn't unfold them in different ways, they were all the same one shape you had to just use. -The packs were single-die/single-card ones which ended up a bit more pricey than regular Yugioh packs. -The artwork was horrendous with backgroundless CGI generated monsters (it'd be a lot better and potentially cheaper for them if they used the TCG artworks or even manga/anime screenshots). -They weren't really distributing it or promoting it the way they did for the TCG. . . . . if they did just cardboard punch out roads of different shapes unfolded die could theoretically make and made the die instead be solid (with a print of the card they belong to replacing 1 face to help identification and find a way to assign said face of the die to an in-game function like the crests do it'd could probably work out). Still, my point is, I don't think Dungeon Dice Monsters flopped for that specific reason of being boardgame-like. We also gotta remember that Yugioh got lifted by the anime/manga craze it generated back in the day with most kids not optimizing any of the potential strategies the cardpool provided and the early sets had abysmal design like underpowered or overleveled vanillas and effects that directly outdid each other in the same releases (look at the cards "Spark", "Hinotama" and "Final Flame" from "Legend of Blue-Eyes", normal Spells that burn for 200, 500, and 600 respectively, then a few weeks later Kaiba's deck would get released with "Ookazi" that burned for 800, and next set "Metal Raiders" would come with "Tremendous Fire" that burns for 1000. Of course this is because the first sets were an amalgamation of the JP sets in an effort to help the Western release catch up and "Sparks" actually is actually one of the 15 Konami cards that are older than rules of Konami's version of Yugioh. Still, even in JP they came way too close to each other) I think Dungeon Dice Monsters could work a lot better with these modifications and would have enjoyed a bit more success. Heck I've already tested taping the crests on normal dice and trying to do the "extra stock unfolded die roads" thing and I can say it helps xD (did it as a kid though so maybe I should give it a more serious test run)
I think a good test that demonstrates this is the issue my friends and I encountered when we tried to use Ikoria cards while playing MTG on a sim called Cockatrice. Without any special components programmed in, to handle keyword counters we had to just come up with ways to track it. The less you have to track with components other than cards, the better!
That skill challenge segment made me question again after many years....WHY ISN'T THE TV GAME SHOW ARCHETYPE IN YUGIOH A REAL ONE?!?! i want to make my opponent bite an apple while underwater and singing la cucaracha or suffer 2000 points of burn damage
@@nunyabiznes33 Yup, it appeared in GX during the white room arc. Basically it centers on a field spell card that activates various effects depending on whetever your opponent can complete a challenge or not, the challenges involves trivia, logic puzzles, physical tasks, etc. And the effects include burn damage, board wipes, special summons, etc...
its funny because in yu-gi-oh card positioning didn't really matter for years and years until link summoning with the extra monster zones and the link monsters arrow pointing mechanic and archetypes like mekk knights were introduced. Now all you really need is STILL just a playmat or at least two little rectangles that can point out where the extra zones are in relation to the rest. But i still feel like it bloated the board design of the game, even if not by much
Literally one extra game piece is enough: the field center. Something roughly card-sized to place in between the extra monster zones. They've sold official ones but fans have also gone all out making fancy custom ones and honestly it's a pretty fun addition to add some personality to your duel. But even if you have nothing you can use a token or a face-down card, or...anything you happen to have on hand that can visibly define the center of the field.
Nah. I just use 1 of my play baords that i got from the duel power boxes, egyptian god box and the seal of orichalchos box. There just as durable as the traditional playmats and u get them for essenitally free.
It also bloated the rules of the game as well, due to needing to keep track of how the link monsters themselves point to other cards, not to mention the restriction it had on playing other types of extra deck monsters (at least it did previously, if I'm not mistaken). Having said that, and it was one of the reasons I ultimately put the tcg down
@@matthewkuscienko4616 If I rember technically it did not actually bloat the rules of the game as there had previously been cards that interact with columns of cards, they just were bad cards so the rules did not practically come into play. But yeah Master Rule 4 limited placement of other extra deck monsters and recently Master Rule 5 removed that restriction for all but Link and Pendulum monsters.
Excellent information, educated opinions, delightful delivery. I'm a bit of a arm chair game academic and this could have been a presentation at GDC. Keep 'em up! I look forward to more. Thanks
I remember when I first seen Redakai at my local card shop... it just seemed like such a bad idea. At some point I remember seeing them in the dollar store, and I still didn't want them :D
The gimmick of equipping an endzone could have been made into a feature where you claim the cards in the center as a resource to win the game instead of using it as an awful gameboard (which could easily be remedied with a $ 0.01 paper mat). The cards equipped could then be added back to the to the total resource pool to prolong the game. Additionally, adding another layer to it the equipped cards can be something that cards are designed around with their effects and such.
As soon as you started talking about the cost of extra junk I knew the eye of judgment was going to be in the video. Btw, they did release an all digital version for psp, but I'm not sure if you can actually play other players. Another game that, in my opinion, did the board game/card game thing well was Anachronism. Yet, it had one moving piece per player and the board was simple. I think that made a huge difference.
Dexterity games are generally looked down upon by the gaming community as a whole. Most people prefer the mental, thought driven gameplay. I've found that as people get older bringing out a dexterity game only gets moans and groans. When people sit down they want to test their brain not their physical abilities.
Tru. Dexterity games are a weird amalgamation of genres and only appeal to people who want both a decent mental challenge and a decent skill challenge, creating a niche that doesn't adequately fit those who want just a mental or just a skill challenge.
I'm not actually into TCGs, designing or playing, but a lot of the lessons in this series are relevant to other types of games as well. You directly reference standalone games and things which work in them but not TCGs (and vice versa), as well as board games on a number of occasions. It's been an interesting set of videos to watch, and this video in particular relates well to the first game I've made. It's a standalone card game called Clean Cut, which simulates a sword duel in only 15 cards, providing a complete 2-player experience for less than the usual cost of a TCG booster pack. The original concept I started from was a horrific mess. I had a gimmicky tacked on idea for a time track that was made using cards. It had all the problems you get from building a baord out of cards, but turned up to 11. Then I realised the solution was to build the game around that mechanic instead of bolting it onto the side of a "normal" game. The result was a game which has you building a VERY SHORT and much more manageable time track out of the cards in your hand, then picking up older cards to cycle them back to your hand, not needing a deck and not having randomisation as a gameplay element.
How about Arkham Horror LCG? One of my favorite games of all time, and the cards are the map. But... It also means each mission you play can have a unique map!
Just my experience but i started playing keyforge without even knowing about the existence of the starter box, my playgroup did the same. At tournaments people where sharing eambers made of plastic bought on amazon for cheap, or small change, dice where used for dmg counters when needed, keys were tracked on paper or directly in the mind most of the time what i am trying to say is that the error that fantasy flight did was to produce said tokens
I started playing magic only 'cause there was the "welcome deck" (or whatever they are called in USA) and it was free. So we just needed an app, the decks itselves and the general rules that were in a paper inside the welcome deck box. Been an player since then. Of course I'm just playing with my friends cause I just started to really get into it last year, and we have a pandemic right now...
i'm surprised battle spirits didn't make it onto the list of games mentioned especially with the latest block introducing more and more places to allocate cores to
Well in the end you still only need cores, and I thought Kohdok implies that the piece to track the game is good as long as it is not overly convoluted and also works as the game's mechanic
@@adonchristlael6301 true, and the issue is somewhat mitigated, at least in my local cardshop, by having the shop owners lending cores to players that didn't bring them
These videos really make me want to make a CCG/TCG/LCG (I lump all three together because they are based upon the same principles of preconstructing a deck and that is mostly all you need besides the points you bring up in the video). Specifically, my game idea is based on hecatomb’s idea of combining cards to create a powerful monster to fight with. Except, instead of five sided transparent cards you stack nicely on top of each other, when you play a monster card you select a body part (head, torso, feet, left arm, right arm) and place the card in the appropriate spot. The limiting factors being the torso must be placed first (all other posts area screwed onto the torso) and the other cards behind the torso with the relevant edge’s text peaking out.
"...Unless every console comes packed with a camera as standard..." Big OOF on Xbox One when that was a thing but it was a different gaming environment back then Glad to see the augmented reality cards getting mentioned like Eye of Judgement. One thing I heard is that you can bypass buying the cards and get a proxy scan of them to have the game register them as real. Don't condone proxy cards unless it is EXTREMELY HARD to come by but those are rare and are collectors' pieces at most
@@coyraig8332 I don't either. Just got a PS4 a year ago, so I am far behind the console generation. It makes it worst for CCGs when that technology is not compatible or forced to upgrade and no way to do backwards compatibility.
Netrunner is the best example of how to use cards alone to create a structured board state. It is so infuriatingly brilliant that I don't know how I could create something better.
I totally started playing Keyforge without the starter set, just a few dice and shredded pieces of paper. MTG is about as bad with its life counter and tokens.
Good video as usual. I know you don't like it but in this context it's worth mentioning that Vanguard (and Weiss Schwarz) uses only its cards* to do everything, including damage, and doesn't have the practical issues of "card boards" like the football game. Also, it would have been nice for you to mention that while "skill challenges" can be fun, as physical dexterity tests they are a major accessibility issue, which is a pretty big problem for trading card games which I know plenty of people first get into specifically because their physical simplicity allows them to play at all. *in bigger sanctioned tournaments Bushiroad technically requires you to track temporary effects with their provided tokens, but they aren't necessary for normal play and you don't have to have them yourself so it still avoids the issues mentioned in the video. Bushi also has everyone play on their paper mats at tournaments. strange decisions from that company sometimes
OH NO THIS IS TOTALLY CALLING OUT MY TERRIBLE IDEA FOR A GAME WHERE YOU SUMMON MONSTERS FROM A DECK ONTO A FIELD AND THEN PLAY A MINIATURES GAME WITH CARDS.
you could still go with the chaotic example 1- make it so you dont need a specialized board to play in 2- make sure the cards that dictate position are also engaging in the rest of the game
@@edwartexe the idea was more of playing a miniatures game but you dont get to bring them onto the field until you summon them out of a deck. Imagine Magic the Gathering but there is a battlefield you summon onto and then play a game luke Star Wars Minis
@@kid14346 Why not make the deck digital and the miniatures the physical part if that's what you're going for? Or you can do it backwards but you said you wanted a miniatures game with cards so I think the first option works better.
I loved Dungeon Dice Monsters. In the Videogame Form. I think that is where a lot of these TCGs with lots of extra mechanics could work (including the ones with skill-based minigames). As videogames that you don't have to carry around.
Looks like it is a good thing I cut the "moving on a grid" aspect of my card game project. It was a b!tch to balance anyway, but the whole 5x5 grid + channel section would have been hard to make into a correct board layout... Also, I am firmly against "skill challenges" because if the benefits are too strong, it can lead to a player winning your card game... by being good at something that doesn't directly involve the cards.
So, a couple card generated "board" games come to mind. Star Trek and Star Wars from Decipher both used cards to generate a line of locations, and then allowed the player to move characters or ships between them. Critically, because it's a single line, players (usually) keep their cards on their side of the board with the missions/locations splitting the board between the players. It did make multiplayer games basically impossible, and Star Trek's Second Edition ejected most of the system. (You'd still place a set of missions in front of you at the beginning of the game, but you could move ships between them mostly indiscriminate of their position on the table.) Middle Earth by Iron Crown Enterprises had an entire map of Tolkein's world represented by cards. The card backs would form a geographic map, while the faces would have game effects. I don't have a lot of personal experience with this one, so I'm unclear if there were multiple versions of individual locations, or if the map was always the same. Tomb Raider by Precedence Entertainment. This one really was a board game that built its board out of cards. You would build a 3x6 (usually) grid of cards to represent the, "level," and then move around it, indicating your character's current location with plastic representations of Lara Croft. Players would construct their decks independent of the locations. Interestingly the game also included solo rules allowing you to play against yourself. There was a punch card of tokens and you needed some D6s to resolve actions. The locations worked better using heavy, ridged, sleeves (something you'd basically never use with a CCG normally. More recently, Fantasy Flight Games has a lot of these. Keyforge is only scratching the surface. Warhammer Conquest used a line of locations, though, critically, it changes every turn. Arkham Horror is almost more nightmarish in the way that locations link together, and trying to figure out where you can move at any given moment can be exceedingly tricky. With some of the games, it's a lot of stat tracking on top of fairly elegant designs, other times, it's a mess.
Yeah, the no dice rule is stupid. Everyone uses dice for counters. Pokemon gives out dice for use as counters in their trainer boxes. Fantasy Flight just likes making their games way more complicated than they really need to be.
The no dice rule was made because Richard Garfield saw so much cheating in Magic with people turning their spindowns wrong. I’m not saying I agree with him just that was his thinking.
"Cardgame players don't like lugging around lots of crap." Me, an idiot: Carries around a fuck ton of spindowns to every commander game because atraxa and ezuri are my life
I remember Dungeon Dice Monsters, and it was the first thing I thought of when this video started. I played the physical version of the game a few times and was pretty "meh" about it but I really did enjoy the GBA version.... until I get shafted on not rolling *a single Magic Crest and instead getting all of my level four Summoning Crests when that's not what I want to happen thankyouverymuchdice!* ~ahem~ sorry about that. Oh geeze, I haven't thought about Chaotic in soooooo long.
As a player of Keyforge: Bullshit. If you've played MTG or something else with tokens you know that you can always use dice to represent everything they try to sell you in the starter set. Is it nice and looks good? Yes. Is it needed to play? No. It's much like the player mats for the other games. Edit. You even made this point yourself.
@RomanQrr I agree with you and tbh half of peoples decks don't even require you to use every single counter in the game and even then you can just bring the counters with you in a small bag or just use dice.
Alright, let's go Aember, damage, +1 Power counter, Stun, Ward, Enrage. That's what we got. Were 4 sets in. 6 different kinds of "counters". Yeah, real easy. I love Keyforge, but that's really not a great thing for a Cardgame. Especially so early on.
Regarding placement: I have to say that when I was going to middle school I used to play a card game named Adrenalyne XL, where the cards are players from the Serie A, the biggest Italian football (soccer) league. I think the game overall made a good use of the placement as a mechanic. As a deck had 11+ cards, 11 players on field and some on the bench. The players on field had to be put face-down in a typical football formation like 4-4-3 and 4-4-2 which created a lot of cool mind games. Now that I look back to this game, I think the placement was the only good thing.
I'm sure someone has probably already pointed this out, but the real issue with Skill Challenges in card games is accessibility. Differently-abled players won't be able to play at the same level as each other, and that's incredibly limiting on your player base. Now, I will say, I've played against people with handicaps in Magic tournaments and other games that are almost exclusively cards. There's a player at my LGS who doesn't have hands, but he's able to pick up and play cards with just a holding station and kind of manipulate his board with his arms. But I can't see a viable way for him to play something like Bakugan or the crane mechanic without a unique apparatus. Not a death-knell for a board game, but like wheelchair ramps and closed captioning, considering how to help disabled people use and interact with your creation helps everyone. You often find ways to make things better even for your "average" player!
I have seen one game back in the late 90's that used cards as a board quite well, 7th Sea. This was a game that was during that boom time where everyone and their dog tried making a CCG to become the next MTG it seemed like. The movement of the ship across the sea and having to figure out where you were in relation to the other boat's was great. We also usually just laid out the sea cards and kept the boat near it instead of placing it directly on the sea card.
23:10 “magic the gathering arena similarly wound up on discount in board game stores worldwide” I know this was an honest mistake, but what are you talking about here? MtG arena is the online version
So fun fact, in Japan, the card arcade machine is pretty wide. Including ganbaride, which was a serious of games that used special cards with heroes and forms from kamen rider, having major significance when decade came out. The cards could even be gotten from boxes of snacks. And one infamous item of these games was the ganbaride Gaia memory, it’s one of the rarest kamen rider collectibles
Uh...you actually need more than $10 to start playing Yugi Oh!, at least to play at local. Ideally one need to spend $30 to get three of the same Structure Deck or Starter Deck to build the optimal build for said deck. This is something I really wish would change in the future.
You can play with just the starter. Outside of teaching games where the opponent is holding back to explain things, it is not a good deck, but it is a legal to play deck.
Hi kohdok, please check the instagram message i sent you in regards to this video and the game i am devloping. In short, my game is a tcg that uses cards for a board, but i still think it works well and people have found it fun during playtesting, but i still wanted to discuss this further to get your thoughts.
I like the video. I look forward to exploring your channel some more. I would like to mention that Eye of Judgement faced a huge piracy problem back in the day. The availability of high-resolution scans leaked on the internet meant that people did not need to buy the actual booster packs to have a complete collection of cards. People could just print out the cards they wanted and the EyeToy could not tell the difference. Since this was a game designed to be played in living rooms and not in hobby stores, it is not like there is a judge standing over your shoulder looking for counterfeit cards.
Bro, that pirates card really brought me back. one year working at summer camp a bunch of us bought out the game store's stock of this and played it all the time
I think that was one of my favorite things about Raw Deal and Duel Masters. All you needed was the deck. No calculator, paper, life tracker, token, counters, anything.
"are they supposed to pack up their entire entertainment center"
The fighting game community would like to know your location.
Melee players lugging around their CRTs:
:|
lol, gotta love people carrying around ps4s with like all the fighting games installed to turn hotel rooms into mini locals
@@AnonymousGentooman I would often lug my entire Desktop computer to my college's dorm-loung to connect it to the TV in there and watch movies or youtube with friends.
@@AnonymousGentooman There are tiny cases that you can build in now, though that takes some extra knowledge and much more careful component selection. But you can really build a high end gaming PC in the space not much larger than a console(more specifically, there are ones under a cubic feett). Something to consider for your next upgrade.
The stuff that will never get portable would be the monitor. But those are much cheaper to have one at each end. Same with KB&M, speakers etc. Not that they are heavy or anything, but it's a hassle.
I mean for the original topic, for example, the trouble was never just lugging around the console, for example. It's the console, the controllers, the cables, potentially the TV and whatever else. That is the hassle.
@@AnonymousGentooman You can probably get a 20-40 bucks 1080 60 monitor and a 5-10 bucks set of KB&M off of ebay or craiglist to put in your dad's place. A set of cable too while at it for another 5-15 maybe. So all you have to do is take the PC itself each time and plug the cable into that, which is only half a dozen things.
Granted, I don't know if there is sufficient desk space available to be simply reserved for having the preferrals just sitting around in your dad's place.
I love this series! Do more plz and ty
Would you be knowing how many percent of people watching this video are subscribed to this guy?
Hey look, it's the third most popular custom card reviewer
Top 10 dueling sins
@@burningcole2538 fifth most popular please
Hey I know you
"Once Magic Online came out, Eye of Judgment was doomed"
Magic Online came out a full six years *before* Eye of Judgment, in 2001. Eye of Judgment was doomed not from the start, but well before the start.
Technically, that means he was right: The moment Magic Online came out, EoJ was already doomed, even if it didn't exist yet.
EoJ: _comes out_
MO: Omae wa mou shindeiru.
"Cries in never seeing a Yugioh duel terminal"
I've only seen one at my game store. And they turned it off after a while.
why did you put that in quotes
I had one by a hobby store next to me. But the vendors just sold the duel terminal cards at a premium to avoid making players use it. Which was a shame. The Yusei Bike Mini-Game was cool.
I want to find a duel terminal and use it till the damn thing ran out of cards. The game wud be fun and there r duelterminal cards that i want. Ive always found arcades fun and have spent up to 2 hours at once at an arcade building b4.
They were overrated and you'd be even LUCKIER if it was an an "honest" store. The only store I ever went to that had a duel terminal got called out for swiping the highest rarity cards they ordered for their duel terminal and selling them on Ebay instead of putting them in the machine
The most successful "board game tcgs" that exist, exist in a video game format primarily. I remember that the Dungeon Dice Monsters GBA game got a good bit of traction and is still considered one of the best Yugioh games released. As is Yugioh: Duelists of the Roses which is about moving cards around a board. I thing the big thing is that, like you said, they gained traction because they were a one and done thing and self-contained, being a video game and all.
Duelists of the Roses itself was based on an arc of the Yugioh manga where the card game was mostly based on Moncolle, which was a game where cards made up the field and movement around the field was paramount. And that's not what killed that game - Set Rotation did.
I feel like if they made a modern duelist of roses and put effort into balancing it, and it was like a master duel type game-- it would be wildly successful.
With updates and set releases and all that. No need for a banlist either, just patch.
Unfortunately the physical DDM hand flopped heard due to short printing
That gage really needs a remake primarily a mobile game
There's one issue with "Skill Challenge" games that (sadly) wasn't addressed here and is a big reason games like Magic have avoided such things since the days of Chaos Orb.
Players with disabilities.
Skill challenge games exclude people with disabilities by their very nature.
also makes it more difficult for new players to catch up
i also personally think that most ccg players aren't intrested in phycical skill games. if one was intrested in that, why wouldn't they just play golf or a similar sport instead?
Well, the other problem with "skill challenge" games, as Kohdok pointed out, is that those stuff appeal more as a novelty for children/the younger demographic than to a more dedicated player base.
So do sports. It’s not a moral ill to develop a game ‘system’ that not everyone can participate in since by our very nature not everyone can do anything, someone will always be excluded. Sometimes that is just how it is, it’s not the developer’s fault that some people can’t engage in what would be considered fine for someone without a relevant disability. This is not an argument against accessibility or the development of tools and methods to improve accessibility, it’s an argument against preventing development of good things that have potential to be inaccessible since it’s de facto argument for improper limitation.
Quick and flawed example: It’s not Wizard’s fault that the blind can’t read their cards, developmentally disabled can’t understand the rulings, etc. However, what is objectionable is something like Magic’s ruling that “There's no maximum deck size, as long as you can shuffle your deck in your hands unassisted”. If you’re one handed, have small hands, missing digits, etc. then an imposition has been placed on you that has nothing to do with the playing of the game provided you can otherwise manipulate the cards. You could play just fine if you provided your own card shuffler, but that ruling is worded in such a way that ‘you’ must be able to do it, so you can’t play that format.
Another problem with skill games is that they are very hard to regulate in sanctioned play. Players may end up coming up with ways to cheese the skill aspect of the game rendering that aspect moot for those who know how to cheese it and either a revision would need to come out to address it or you end up with a very unbalanced tcg (since the skill ceiling to make OP moves have essentially been removed)
I feel like the rules need to be specific on how you're supposed to execute the skill challenge.
Also on the note of using cards as game pieces to move around a grid, I speak from experience of my First tcg prototype being exactly this...it was not fun to play AT ALL for a number of reasons and movement was one of them
Heh, well jokes on you! My card shop has a dual terminal! The machine doesn’t work but, well that’s not the point!
"It also can't be a thing where we like step aside to play something else" *Plays marbles with bakugan*
"We don't want something that keeps the opponent waiting" *Struggles to close krakelios ultra for 20min*
The rolling aspect really doesn't take away too much time from from the rest of the game and is performed right there between the two players. Though the difficulty of closing Bakugan was pretty poorly thought out and was addressed by Spinmaster in Armored Alliance by simplifying many of the closing processes.
TECHNICALLY, the marbles are the main game and the card game is the "play something else" here, so...
dungeon dice monsters was a MASTERPIECE and it is a down right TRAGEDY that it flopped so hard. i miss that game
The gba game was so good
There are many card games that if they were made for online play , added a story mode where you unlock cards and can pay for booster packs that contain exclusive skins they would make a lot of money from it
“$669”
That’s ridiculous, what the f-
“Co-developed... Wizards of the Coast”
Oh, carry on then.
I mean its factoring the price of the ps3 into the equation. And that console was EXPENSIVE at launch.
Though there were cheaper models like the slim and super slim
@@jmurray1110 Yes, but they came out long after the game died.
Funny story as a kid me and my dad played ygo together. I saw the dungeon dice episodes then saw them in the store. My father ever wise said “son I promise no one will have one and they’ll stop making them.” He bought me more ygo cards instead. Boy was he right.
The short printing didn’t help
Still there’s a lot of renewed interest in the game tgat Konami should take advantage off with a master duel style game
Man that Redekai "duel disk/unfolding box" actually looks cool. Imagine if they released that instead of those 3 useless pieces of plastic
My friends and I honestly love dungeon dice monsters. We even made homemade figures and printed copies of all the cards from online images. It is definitely different from the tcg but it is a blast to play
Honestly I feel like the reason DDM failed so hard was the gimmicky unique dice mecanics. Adding a 3rd component, grid movement, to a TCG could be something worth exploring further
What’s ironic about Bakugan is...
They suck at distributing cards for a trading *card* game. It’s usually the game pieces, but you can easily waltz on over to AP the nearest Walmart or Target and buy enough for a basic game, but not the actual trading card game.
Now you CAN order them online. Just pay 100 bucks for a single pack. Yeah.
I wish you could buy Bakugan boosters at my LGS, alongside maybe a basic starter set. Even if you have to get more toys only at big box stores, having the cards be sold in card stores would really help the game scene.
Andrew Foose The problem is bakugan isn’t popular enough. Maybe if there was some video game that helps connect the entire community that wants to play bakugan, along with advertising to other players so that local game stores will make bakugan more profitable because they are still a business. Plus, selling booster packs at lgs ALONG with selling them at retails helps heaps.
But no, let’s just do a stupid decision.
i used to play bakugan as a kid (like around 7 or 8) and me and my friends never even saw a bakugan card, just the little plastic toys. though whether this is up to lack of distribution or wether we were stupid little childred i dunno.
profishkeeping I’m actually talking about the reboot version
Brandon Nguyen oh ok, sorry I’m not too familiar with bakugan( as you can tell)
To be fair, dungeon dice monsters was a board game more than a card game
When I was a 7th grader I made a board/card game out of Animorphs where players would race to the final zone to beat the aliens first. You would choose a character to represent on the board and move with a dice roll on a track of panels across different environments picking up animals from a shuffled Morph Deck to use to fight enemies on panels you land on and to move through the particular environment zone from forest to mountains to ocean. If you rolled a dice and landed on a panel with an enemy you would have to defeat the enemy before rolling to move again. The biggest morphs would do the most damage but some morphs don't work in certain zones. And some morphs carry other advantageous abilities.
One thing to note is that Eye of Judgement got a fully digital version, a PSP with the same game and mechanics, so if you wanted to play the game, you could just pick that up cheaper and not have to worry about the card cost.
I love this series, I'm glad we got another upload 💗
I love the video! But i wanted to throw this out there: when my brother and I started playing keyforge, we used pocket change for the pieces. Quarters were keys, pennies were amber, and the extra change would act as buffs/whatever else we needed. Hell Ive used paperclips for amber, Ive used my actual house keys as the keys in KeyForge. I agree they shouldn’t advertise you only need the deck, but as someone who has spent hours and hours playing KeyForge, I found it almost charming to play with household items rather than the official pieces :)
Tbh season 1 key forge was easily done with just dice.
As me and my fiance bought a couple dozen decks when it released,
And own hundreds of various colored dice.
Twas easy.
And if that's not your jam,
There's a free phone app for tracking amber and keys, and stun was flipping creature upside down.
But every new set requiring new token types??
That's just creating logistic complexity, soon the token types will become kinda unwieldy,
And is the budding of an issue that will plague them years down the line.
@@feliciaamore1105 Fantasy Flight's been plagued by that issue for years, cf. all of their LCGs.
I've got about 50 keyforge decks and have never played with the little tokens- 2 colors of mini dice and you're set!
Yeah his Keyforge one is a little unfair, my locals sell the starter set for $25 which includes the pieces and two decks. I'll buy the starter set for the box of each set and usually have the small pieces in a box for ppl to use if they need it.
I feel less bad about owning roughly 50 Myself knowing I'm not alone xD
Me and my fiance love this game.
I think the issue is less that the game is particularly impossible to do without dice,
I also pretty much exclusively use dice xD
But that every set brings new token types to the table, which increases the level of logistics intrinsic to the game.
At some point this will hit a critical mass, and become unsustainable.
It clearly is perfectly sustainable Currently, but if their feature creep includes a creep of required physical components, then the game slowly becomes less and less accessible.
I kinda gathered that his point was increased Logistic complexity grows exponentially bad.
Which is a too-oft ignored game design rule.
But keyforge is creating this issue for their future selves, i'd argue it isn't there yet, and currently is fine.
@@feliciaamore1105 It's funny because I play it with a family member who caught on to it quickly. They used dice the last time I played them and I like huh that's a good idea lol.
But yeah I agree, Fantasy flight keeps adding in logistics intrinsic to the game. I think it was a yr ago they talked about adding in mini figures at some point. Which might be a little too much for me at that point.
@@High5748 waitwaitwait.
Minifigs???
That's a Little much i agree
Have a few decks from my short time in Keyforge,and never bothered to buy a starter set. I printed out keys 'cards' and life trackers, and used beads from craft stores for amber.
I haven't thought using sets of dice though, might try that should I play again in the future.
"you can't just play with the cards"
And like that years upon years of using differently colored dice, slips of paper with effects written on, and different coinage were erased from my life.
I kinda expected you to mention Yugioh's "Master Rule 4" at some point since the game made placement important since the introduction of Link Monsters. Though Yugioh has an alternative to requiring the playmat to have the layout of it all: Instead you just put a "Field Center" and from there it should be sorta easy to tell where each card is supposed to be at (and that's kinda intriguing considering you have 5 rows and 5 columns in this board not counting the Field Spell Zone).
I started writing a Vrains fanfic with a Nexus Deck as that Field Center that you could access by pointing at it with a Link Monster
Vrains ended... Haven't finished it
XD
I think I get why it wasnt mentioned. The Board Game offshoots he mentioned didnt just have an arrangement of cards that move position, they actually REQUIRED a field in order to play. That NFL game had cards dedicated to making the field and did nothing else, you couldn't slide your controlled cards across the table, you had to put them on top of those cards.
Not even just with Link Monsters, they've had positional effects for a long time. At least as far back as the GX era when I first got into it, if not even earlier. Things like effects where a monster could move itself left or right to unoccupied monster zones on your field and/or have effects that referenced the "column" (the vertical line of card zones from your spell/trap zone to your opponent's spell/trap zone) and if there were other cards lined up with that card or not. Essentially making Monster Cards designed to move around the field like a board game piece looking for openings in the physical layout of the opponent's card location choices.
Sure, experienced players can have the base layout memorized and wouldn't need an actual visual field and things like the Main/Extra Deck, Graveyard, or Field Zone can kind of go wherever you want them to, but a new player seeing effects like those would absolutely need a physical field to understand how those effects work.
Yugioh falls under the same category as Chaotic.
@@reperfan4 Yes, that is true. But it should be noted, that until Link's, it was very rare you would see anyone use those cards.
In my entire time playing YGO(from the original set) to now.
I never saw anyone use those cards. Even in the Link format, a lot of them still sat, abandoned.
Yugioh does have quite a bit of the board game element. The addition of cards like Mekk-Knights, link monsters, and Infinite Impermanence made the exact positioning of cards on the field very important.
Haha link monsters, more like irrelevant
@@raeryuko haha irrelevant, more like Dragon link tier 1
nowadays, that is if the deck you are playing uses Link monsters. With fusion, xyz and synchro now being able to use normal monster zones to be summoned on, you only take importance of positioning for a link's effect or to summon a pendulum from the Extra Deck
@@raeryuko huh? What nonsense is this?
@@promisnwekenta9703 when I made that reply my mind goes to how link monsters used to be mandatory and now they aren't
it's not exactly funny and I'm not really making any sense, but cut me some slack mn I'm like 12 or something
The strangest thing about Eye of Judgment to me is that Magic Online was around for *years* before this game came out, even made by the same company. It could've easily just been an all digital game and could've been really cool, they had the experience with digital card games to make it happen. At the same time though, if was the era of the Wii, everyone wanted to have gimmicks, and Sony needed to sell the Eye Toy somehow.
Though, I will say, now in 2020 I've been seeing a lot of people playing Commander and other Magic formats over Webcams, I wonder if a game that better makes use of the physical-digital interaction would be more viable today on PC, or if there's just no real reason to with so many great digital TCGs.
Magic over webcam is a terrible experience, honestly just use cockatrice or something.
To be fair, the rise of webcam commander is due to the pandemic. It was niche before, but once just going to the card store or a friend's house for a couple of games becomes a health issue, it was only going to go up.
I imagine the whole point was to replicate that arcade experience. Which used physical cards, not digital.
"even by the same company" Wong: Sony made EoJ themselves, while MGO was made first by Leaping Lizard, with Wizards adding later on.
And you're confusing things: The Eye Toy was made for the PS2. The camera of the PS3 was the Playstation Eye. Also, the Eye was also part of the Playstation Move bundle: The glowing maraca heads on the Move would be read by the PS Eye to get the actual position, while movement would be read through the internal gyro, basically trying to advance the mechanics of the Wiimote.
I actually checked after seeing the video... yeah, it's still a fail: WotC makes the cards, but the game itself was Sony's idea and they likely only ask WotC to make the physical cards... which is all they make from my investigation.
"For Yu-gi-oh... you're gonna need a calculator."
Or as I like to call it: the Evilswarm-B-Gone
You wanna get funky? Run three copies of Solemn Judgement in an Lswarm deck. Halve that XX50 to YY25, then to ZZ12, then AA06.
The more and more this series progresses the more and more I'm surprised Yu-Gi-Oh is still a thing...
I guess the popularity of the anime helps keep it afloat. And vice-versa.
@@GurrenPrime no doubt
@@CipherMask True, though nowadays a competitive Yugioh deck will go from $400 to $1k
Why would u be suprised? Yugioh has avoided all the sins that would normally kill a TCG
As someone who has played this game for over a decade, including about 8 years competitively, I can attest that Yugioh is mostly alive due to its sheer uniqueness making it fun as all hell. It's weird, its old rules text and design philosophy used to be garbage, and it's definitely pretty hard to get into competitively, but goddamn is it a party
Man, Mahou Shoujo Relentlessly Poor Elulu season 2 was bonkers
Yeah. Jesus, they went overboard with the budget... ironic, isn't it?
I actually really liked season two I liked there explanation to why shes relentlessly poor
I come from the future, avoid season 5
the reason is SPOILERS
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She somehow comes into money and stops being relentlessly poor, which is kinda nice because having been poor she uses the extra cash to help charities and the like, but it becomes a different show and she goes back to being poor to maintain status quo before season 6's foreshadow plot even starts.
I liked the part where she went "It's poorin' time!" and went on to eat cardboard for breakfast
Having your cards move around on the board is a board game
Yajiro invader: 😥
Also Wattkinetic Puppeteer:
Mekk knights... playing goat format after their introduction and impermanence has fucked me up
Cyberdark Impact*!* comes to mind with all its column effects.
Vaylantz: ....
Vaylantz: ....
There is one effective, albeit HORRENDOUSLY tedious solution to the redekai problem.
Sleeves.
Just sleeve the entire deck, and play as normal, but unsleeve them as you place them on the field.
Then resleeve them when the game is over.
He mentions that in episode 4. That is incredibly tedious and leads to a terrible play style.
I know of a card game where you have to move your cards around the board. It's an Argentine game called Enadrya and the principle of it is that you have a board of 3 rows and 7 columns where you can place your cards and move them vertically or horizontally towards an Offensive and Defensive zone. How many spaces you can move depends on a speed stat from 1 to 3 that every card has, which also determines in what part of the board you can place it (some cards can start at the front outright while others start from the back and have to move forward). I really haven't played it but I remember buying a starter deck when it was just starting back in 2011 cause the concept interested me.
To be fair with Keyforge we used dice to track aember, damage, and the various buffs. We also positioned cards differently for the various status effects. Now I know it’s not official to use dice but FFG does allow you to use different custom things to track that stuff. So when I play Keyforge with people at work we usually just bring our decks and the dice that usually come with Pokémon elite boxes. So in retrospect you only need to do the one deck buy in and have a few dice lying around. That’s how we play it and get newcomers into it cause they only have like a 12 dollar buy in. Now I do have starter sets and agree it’s a little bit easier but I hate bringing components into work so I mostly play with just dice. Also with the newer sets with new mechanics we had to improvise a bit but we make it work with just a deck and dice. I do agree though the wording should be phrased differently but it is totally possible to enjoy Keyforge with the one deck. That’s how I sell em to newcomers that see us playing and wanna try it. But anyway love this series and another great video! Look forward to the next.
the bits and pieces I have made/bought to play arkham horror has indeed turned it into a board game. I see this as a total win!
I honestly would love to get into Dungeon Dice Monsters if they attempt to tweak design and make it better. We never got any of the product in my side of my country so I guess it's not a marketable product either. I just like the idea of dice becoming a board.
The US version was inferior anyway. In Japan, the dice did actually fold out so they could make each monster have its own faces and such. In the US, the conversion was outsourced and all the corners were cut. The dice were standardized and boilerplate and came in the starter kit, as well as being regular dice instead of the fancy kind that fold out. Instead cardboard pieces representing how the dice unfold are used instead.
Me just discovering this series today and binge watching, only to be met with the episode before the finale: HOW DOES IT END!? *Waits silently for next episode*
"And i dont even wanna start on the doom board game."
Dark souls board game looms in background menacingly
Pfp checks out
Tried to play it once... Never finished. 2 of the 5 people just never came back to the board game club after 2 sessions. It was brutal.
Regarding a card game where you move your cards around on a field: I think the fact that the Fire Emblem card game, based on a Turn Based Strategy Game, didn't do this is pretty telling that it can't work. Instead, it simplifies it to just a back row and front row that your cards can move between.
To be fair, they learned from experience. There was a card game for that back during the YGO craze (prior to the west’s introduction to Fire Emblem) that had a formation system. The game flopped pretty hard. The reasons were namely too much complexity (it had the sins in this video) but also stock art that didn’t really work well as a card.
There was an older Fire Emblem TCG (Japan only of course) that was a 3x3 grid. It released a couple sets, I dunno how well it did really. It had another issue which is arguably a sin: Extremely boring starter set.
I haven't played, but Anna's Roundtable is a fan game that looks like it does a decent job of using cards as board pieces. It's in the middle of a mild legal shake-up, but the TTS mod is still available and the creator said a PnP will be ready in a few months. Take a look!
Doomtown is a great card game that does exactly that. Movement can work, it's just naturally gonna be wonky.
@@QKlilx Thing about TTS is that it removes the physical elements of space and card movement that would drag other games that do this.
In my experience a lot of skill challenge games run into the issue of them being messy physical things. Like with skill claw and bakugan, at what point do you release the thing? Are you going to call a judge to see if someone went over the line like a football foul?
it seems like having dexterity mechanics that involve physical objects could fall into the same trappings of accessibility as Smash Melee with controllers. If you only have access to certain controllers, you could unknowingly be limiting the possibility to perform certain techniques based on your equipment alone. It doesn't seem bad in bakugan, it's just a marble that opens, but in that claw game you can't really play if your claw doesn't work right
The worst part of Eye of judgement, at least in my experience, was that additional expansions were locked behind not just a physical card purchase, but an additional DLC purchase, which means that you could end up with a whole deck of cards that wouldn't work with the game unless you were willing to pay even more
I've only just found this channel, and I've never really been into physical cardgames. But I really love watching videos about game design, no matter what kind of game it is.
Anyway, it seems like a lot of these games could benefit from being digital rather than physical. Physical cardgames have their place, but when your game requires players keeping track of stat boosts, status effects, resources transferring from turn to turn, etc, it'll become too much for the player to keep track of.
A digital cardgame can keep track of this stuff for you, and actually change the text on the card to reflect a buff (ie. you give a card +4 attack, now it says it deals 20 damage instead of 16). Meanwhile, a physical cardgame requires you to use tokens and stuff to keep track of that.
Physical cardgames seem to have a problem of designers over-doing things and forgetting that they're not making a computer game. It seems that a lot of cardgames fail to play to their limitations, which is a shame because limitation is what breeds creativity.
19:20 Jett Kuso making them Stan Lee cameos I see.
I'm also jealous you have the impossible to find fabled Dark Magician Girl DDM!
I will die on this hill:
Anachronism was a fantastic game about moving cards as if they were board pieces.
HELL YES! That game was the absolute best. Although, I think it helped alot that every player only had one card that they had to move around.
Also, one thing the game had going for it, and for me personally this was a huge deal, is the fact that there were no randomized booster packs. The fact that there was a ceiling to how much money you would need to spend in order to acquire games pieces was a huge deal.
@@TravisPilgrim Amen to all that, brother.
I was surprised they didn't mention Anachronism, in fact. Loved that game
The PSP version of Eye of Judgement was cool. It didn't require physical cards.
Usually when we play commander within our squad we use mobile app for tracking our life points and other counters (like storm or poison). It's incredibly handy, as we need less dice, and absolutely free.
When he said "Dungeon Dice Monsters"... I felt that.
On the Dungeon Dice Monsters bit, I remember thinking it was a pretty cool concept but it had more limitations IRL.
-The die had to fold/unfold and were easy to break, and unlike the anime/manga you couldn't unfold them in different ways, they were all the same one shape you had to just use.
-The packs were single-die/single-card ones which ended up a bit more pricey than regular Yugioh packs.
-The artwork was horrendous with backgroundless CGI generated monsters (it'd be a lot better and potentially cheaper for them if they used the TCG artworks or even manga/anime screenshots).
-They weren't really distributing it or promoting it the way they did for the TCG.
. . . . if they did just cardboard punch out roads of different shapes unfolded die could theoretically make and made the die instead be solid (with a print of the card they belong to replacing 1 face to help identification and find a way to assign said face of the die to an in-game function like the crests do it'd could probably work out). Still, my point is, I don't think Dungeon Dice Monsters flopped for that specific reason of being boardgame-like. We also gotta remember that Yugioh got lifted by the anime/manga craze it generated back in the day with most kids not optimizing any of the potential strategies the cardpool provided and the early sets had abysmal design like underpowered or overleveled vanillas and effects that directly outdid each other in the same releases (look at the cards "Spark", "Hinotama" and "Final Flame" from "Legend of Blue-Eyes", normal Spells that burn for 200, 500, and 600 respectively, then a few weeks later Kaiba's deck would get released with "Ookazi" that burned for 800, and next set "Metal Raiders" would come with "Tremendous Fire" that burns for 1000. Of course this is because the first sets were an amalgamation of the JP sets in an effort to help the Western release catch up and "Sparks" actually is actually one of the 15 Konami cards that are older than rules of Konami's version of Yugioh. Still, even in JP they came way too close to each other)
I think Dungeon Dice Monsters could work a lot better with these modifications and would have enjoyed a bit more success. Heck I've already tested taping the crests on normal dice and trying to do the "extra stock unfolded die roads" thing and I can say it helps xD (did it as a kid though so maybe I should give it a more serious test run)
I think a good test that demonstrates this is the issue my friends and I encountered when we tried to use Ikoria cards while playing MTG on a sim called Cockatrice. Without any special components programmed in, to handle keyword counters we had to just come up with ways to track it.
The less you have to track with components other than cards, the better!
You should be able to write words on your cards on cockatrice I think.
Thing to give yugioh credit, the effects can be done with coins, something else that is readily available
Same with Pokémon, a lot of effects require a coin flip, but the official tournament rules allow you to replace the coin flip with a dice roll
That skill challenge segment made me question again after many years....WHY ISN'T THE TV GAME SHOW ARCHETYPE IN YUGIOH A REAL ONE?!?! i want to make my opponent bite an apple while underwater and singing la cucaracha or suffer 2000 points of burn damage
Game Show archetype?!
@@nunyabiznes33 Yup, it appeared in GX during the white room arc.
Basically it centers on a field spell card that activates various effects depending on whetever your opponent can complete a challenge or not, the challenges involves trivia, logic puzzles, physical tasks, etc. And the effects include burn damage, board wipes, special summons, etc...
Also was reintroduced in a similar form in Arc B
Oh, thank you so much. This is seriously one of my favorite TH-cam series.
its funny because in yu-gi-oh card positioning didn't really matter for years and years until link summoning with the extra monster zones and the link monsters arrow pointing mechanic and archetypes like mekk knights were introduced.
Now all you really need is STILL just a playmat or at least two little rectangles that can point out where the extra zones are in relation to the rest.
But i still feel like it bloated the board design of the game, even if not by much
Literally one extra game piece is enough: the field center. Something roughly card-sized to place in between the extra monster zones. They've sold official ones but fans have also gone all out making fancy custom ones and honestly it's a pretty fun addition to add some personality to your duel. But even if you have nothing you can use a token or a face-down card, or...anything you happen to have on hand that can visibly define the center of the field.
Nah. I just use 1 of my play baords that i got from the duel power boxes, egyptian god box and the seal of orichalchos box. There just as durable as the traditional playmats and u get them for essenitally free.
It also bloated the rules of the game as well, due to needing to keep track of how the link monsters themselves point to other cards, not to mention the restriction it had on playing other types of extra deck monsters (at least it did previously, if I'm not mistaken). Having said that, and it was one of the reasons I ultimately put the tcg down
@@matthewkuscienko4616 If I rember technically it did not actually bloat the rules of the game as there had previously been cards that interact with columns of cards, they just were bad cards so the rules did not practically come into play.
But yeah Master Rule 4 limited placement of other extra deck monsters and recently Master Rule 5 removed that restriction for all but Link and Pendulum monsters.
Excellent information, educated opinions, delightful delivery. I'm a bit of a arm chair game academic and this could have been a presentation at GDC. Keep 'em up! I look forward to more. Thanks
I remember when I first seen Redakai at my local card shop... it just seemed like such a bad idea. At some point I remember seeing them in the dollar store, and I still didn't want them :D
The gimmick of equipping an endzone could have been made into a feature where you claim the cards in the center as a resource to win the game instead of using it as an awful gameboard (which could easily be remedied with a $ 0.01 paper mat). The cards equipped could then be added back to the to the total resource pool to prolong the game.
Additionally, adding another layer to it the equipped cards can be something that cards are designed around with their effects and such.
As soon as you started talking about the cost of extra junk I knew the eye of judgment was going to be in the video. Btw, they did release an all digital version for psp, but I'm not sure if you can actually play other players.
Another game that, in my opinion, did the board game/card game thing well was Anachronism. Yet, it had one moving piece per player and the board was simple. I think that made a huge difference.
Then the moving cards should probably be represented by a pawn or token
Never thought I'd be this into George Costanza teaching me about card games.
Dexterity games are generally looked down upon by the gaming community as a whole. Most people prefer the mental, thought driven gameplay. I've found that as people get older bringing out a dexterity game only gets moans and groans. When people sit down they want to test their brain not their physical abilities.
Tru. Dexterity games are a weird amalgamation of genres and only appeal to people who want both a decent mental challenge and a decent skill challenge, creating a niche that doesn't adequately fit those who want just a mental or just a skill challenge.
I'm not actually into TCGs, designing or playing, but a lot of the lessons in this series are relevant to other types of games as well. You directly reference standalone games and things which work in them but not TCGs (and vice versa), as well as board games on a number of occasions. It's been an interesting set of videos to watch, and this video in particular relates well to the first game I've made. It's a standalone card game called Clean Cut, which simulates a sword duel in only 15 cards, providing a complete 2-player experience for less than the usual cost of a TCG booster pack.
The original concept I started from was a horrific mess. I had a gimmicky tacked on idea for a time track that was made using cards. It had all the problems you get from building a baord out of cards, but turned up to 11. Then I realised the solution was to build the game around that mechanic instead of bolting it onto the side of a "normal" game. The result was a game which has you building a VERY SHORT and much more manageable time track out of the cards in your hand, then picking up older cards to cycle them back to your hand, not needing a deck and not having randomisation as a gameplay element.
How about Arkham Horror LCG? One of my favorite games of all time, and the cards are the map. But... It also means each mission you play can have a unique map!
Just my experience but i started playing keyforge without even knowing about the existence of the starter box, my playgroup did the same. At tournaments people where sharing eambers made of plastic bought on amazon for cheap, or small change, dice where used for dmg counters when needed, keys were tracked on paper or directly in the mind most of the time
what i am trying to say is that the error that fantasy flight did was to produce said tokens
But I loved Dungeon Dice Monsters! It's exactly the same thing as yugioh!
Seriously though, I actually liked it more than yugioh >.
Apparently theres a kickstarter for a game almost identical to DDM but with original cards obviously
@@veilofphrexia2049 What is it called?
@@veilofphrexia2049 how it is called?
Same! Especially the Japanese version, which I wish we had gotten over here.
@@veilofphrexia2049 :o what's it called?
The big thing that you've convinced me of is that I should give Keyforge a try.
I started playing magic only 'cause there was the "welcome deck" (or whatever they are called in USA) and it was free. So we just needed an app, the decks itselves and the general rules that were in a paper inside the welcome deck box.
Been an player since then. Of course I'm just playing with my friends cause I just started to really get into it last year, and we have a pandemic right now...
Welcome to money hole of Magic!
That pkmn tcg theme from gamboy hit me right in the nostalgia organ.
i'm surprised battle spirits didn't make it onto the list of games mentioned
especially with the latest block introducing more and more places to allocate cores to
Well in the end you still only need cores, and I thought Kohdok implies that the piece to track the game is good as long as it is not overly convoluted and also works as the game's mechanic
@@adonchristlael6301 true, and the issue is somewhat mitigated, at least in my local cardshop, by having the shop owners lending cores to players that didn't bring them
These videos really make me want to make a CCG/TCG/LCG (I lump all three together because they are based upon the same principles of preconstructing a deck and that is mostly all you need besides the points you bring up in the video).
Specifically, my game idea is based on hecatomb’s idea of combining cards to create a powerful monster to fight with. Except, instead of five sided transparent cards you stack nicely on top of each other, when you play a monster card you select a body part (head, torso, feet, left arm, right arm) and place the card in the appropriate spot. The limiting factors being the torso must be placed first (all other posts area screwed onto the torso) and the other cards behind the torso with the relevant edge’s text peaking out.
To be fair, for Keyforge we just use our MTG dice.
"I can sense a lot of you sneering"
I'm sneering so fucking hard right now that I'd be concerned if you couldn't sense it.
"...Unless every console comes packed with a camera as standard..." Big OOF on Xbox One when that was a thing but it was a different gaming environment back then
Glad to see the augmented reality cards getting mentioned like Eye of Judgement. One thing I heard is that you can bypass buying the cards and get a proxy scan of them to have the game register them as real. Don't condone proxy cards unless it is EXTREMELY HARD to come by but those are rare and are collectors' pieces at most
"when that was a thing." I feel old and I never even had one
@@coyraig8332 I don't either. Just got a PS4 a year ago, so I am far behind the console generation. It makes it worst for CCGs when that technology is not compatible or forced to upgrade and no way to do backwards compatibility.
Netrunner is the best example of how to use cards alone to create a structured board state. It is so infuriatingly brilliant that I don't know how I could create something better.
I totally started playing Keyforge without the starter set, just a few dice and shredded pieces of paper. MTG is about as bad with its life counter and tokens.
Good video as usual. I know you don't like it but in this context it's worth mentioning that Vanguard (and Weiss Schwarz) uses only its cards* to do everything, including damage, and doesn't have the practical issues of "card boards" like the football game. Also, it would have been nice for you to mention that while "skill challenges" can be fun, as physical dexterity tests they are a major accessibility issue, which is a pretty big problem for trading card games which I know plenty of people first get into specifically because their physical simplicity allows them to play at all.
*in bigger sanctioned tournaments Bushiroad technically requires you to track temporary effects with their provided tokens, but they aren't necessary for normal play and you don't have to have them yourself so it still avoids the issues mentioned in the video. Bushi also has everyone play on their paper mats at tournaments. strange decisions from that company sometimes
OH NO THIS IS TOTALLY CALLING OUT MY TERRIBLE IDEA FOR A GAME WHERE YOU SUMMON MONSTERS FROM A DECK ONTO A FIELD AND THEN PLAY A MINIATURES GAME WITH CARDS.
you could still go with the chaotic example
1- make it so you dont need a specialized board to play in
2- make sure the cards that dictate position are also engaging in the rest of the game
@@edwartexe the idea was more of playing a miniatures game but you dont get to bring them onto the field until you summon them out of a deck. Imagine Magic the Gathering but there is a battlefield you summon onto and then play a game luke Star Wars Minis
@@kid14346 Why not make the deck digital and the miniatures the physical part if that's what you're going for? Or you can do it backwards but you said you wanted a miniatures game with cards so I think the first option works better.
@@GaussianEntity sounds like a high entry fee
I loved Dungeon Dice Monsters. In the Videogame Form. I think that is where a lot of these TCGs with lots of extra mechanics could work (including the ones with skill-based minigames). As videogames that you don't have to carry around.
Looks like it is a good thing I cut the "moving on a grid" aspect of my card game project. It was a b!tch to balance anyway, but the whole 5x5 grid + channel section would have been hard to make into a correct board layout...
Also, I am firmly against "skill challenges" because if the benefits are too strong, it can lead to a player winning your card game... by being good at something that doesn't directly involve the cards.
Mage Wars makes it work, but only because it's not a tcg.
So, a couple card generated "board" games come to mind. Star Trek and Star Wars from Decipher both used cards to generate a line of locations, and then allowed the player to move characters or ships between them. Critically, because it's a single line, players (usually) keep their cards on their side of the board with the missions/locations splitting the board between the players. It did make multiplayer games basically impossible, and Star Trek's Second Edition ejected most of the system. (You'd still place a set of missions in front of you at the beginning of the game, but you could move ships between them mostly indiscriminate of their position on the table.)
Middle Earth by Iron Crown Enterprises had an entire map of Tolkein's world represented by cards. The card backs would form a geographic map, while the faces would have game effects. I don't have a lot of personal experience with this one, so I'm unclear if there were multiple versions of individual locations, or if the map was always the same.
Tomb Raider by Precedence Entertainment. This one really was a board game that built its board out of cards. You would build a 3x6 (usually) grid of cards to represent the, "level," and then move around it, indicating your character's current location with plastic representations of Lara Croft. Players would construct their decks independent of the locations. Interestingly the game also included solo rules allowing you to play against yourself. There was a punch card of tokens and you needed some D6s to resolve actions. The locations worked better using heavy, ridged, sleeves (something you'd basically never use with a CCG normally.
More recently, Fantasy Flight Games has a lot of these. Keyforge is only scratching the surface. Warhammer Conquest used a line of locations, though, critically, it changes every turn. Arkham Horror is almost more nightmarish in the way that locations link together, and trying to figure out where you can move at any given moment can be exceedingly tricky. With some of the games, it's a lot of stat tracking on top of fairly elegant designs, other times, it's a mess.
I just use LEGO for Keyforge tokens (I also use red d6s for damage)
Edit: For Keyforge organized play, you can't use dice :(
Yeah, the no dice rule is stupid. Everyone uses dice for counters. Pokemon gives out dice for use as counters in their trainer boxes. Fantasy Flight just likes making their games way more complicated than they really need to be.
The no dice rule was made because Richard Garfield saw so much cheating in Magic with people turning their spindowns wrong. I’m not saying I agree with him just that was his thinking.
What's funny is that mtg went and included stickers you need in the latest un set.
"Cardgame players don't like lugging around lots of crap."
Me, an idiot: Carries around a fuck ton of spindowns to every commander game because atraxa and ezuri are my life
ah yes the dice box that is at least 2 times the size of your deckbox because of all the +1/+1 counters you need to track
Hearing people talk about Chaotic in 2020 is a trip and a half. My favorite game back in middle and high school, hope the reboot works out someday.
Next should be "Not" expanding the game to other countries
I remember Dungeon Dice Monsters, and it was the first thing I thought of when this video started.
I played the physical version of the game a few times and was pretty "meh" about it but I really did enjoy the GBA version.... until I get shafted on not rolling *a single Magic Crest and instead getting all of my level four Summoning Crests when that's not what I want to happen thankyouverymuchdice!* ~ahem~ sorry about that.
Oh geeze, I haven't thought about Chaotic in soooooo long.
IM BEEN WAITING FOR THIS
I expected a lot of things today, but sideways floor Kohdok was not one of them.
Still, this series is SO good
As a player of Keyforge: Bullshit. If you've played MTG or something else with tokens you know that you can always use dice to represent everything they try to sell you in the starter set. Is it nice and looks good? Yes. Is it needed to play? No. It's much like the player mats for the other games.
Edit. You even made this point yourself.
@RomanQrr I agree with you and tbh half of peoples decks don't even require you to use every single counter in the game and even then you can just bring the counters with you in a small bag or just use dice.
I could see where maybe you color code the dice? Red for damage, Yellow for Amber, etc etc. But then you have to remember the color code
I agree. I don't have the starter kit and I play without problem. I use coins and dice for counters.
@@nekosashi i use literal keys to represent keys
Alright, let's go
Aember, damage, +1 Power counter, Stun, Ward, Enrage. That's what we got. Were 4 sets in. 6 different kinds of "counters". Yeah, real easy.
I love Keyforge, but that's really not a great thing for a Cardgame. Especially so early on.
Regarding placement: I have to say that when I was going to middle school I used to play a card game named Adrenalyne XL, where the cards are players from the Serie A, the biggest Italian football (soccer) league.
I think the game overall made a good use of the placement as a mechanic. As a deck had 11+ cards, 11 players on field and some on the bench. The players on field had to be put face-down in a typical football formation like 4-4-3 and 4-4-2 which created a lot of cool mind games. Now that I look back to this game, I think the placement was the only good thing.
I'm sure someone has probably already pointed this out, but the real issue with Skill Challenges in card games is accessibility. Differently-abled players won't be able to play at the same level as each other, and that's incredibly limiting on your player base.
Now, I will say, I've played against people with handicaps in Magic tournaments and other games that are almost exclusively cards. There's a player at my LGS who doesn't have hands, but he's able to pick up and play cards with just a holding station and kind of manipulate his board with his arms. But I can't see a viable way for him to play something like Bakugan or the crane mechanic without a unique apparatus.
Not a death-knell for a board game, but like wheelchair ramps and closed captioning, considering how to help disabled people use and interact with your creation helps everyone. You often find ways to make things better even for your "average" player!
I have seen one game back in the late 90's that used cards as a board quite well, 7th Sea. This was a game that was during that boom time where everyone and their dog tried making a CCG to become the next MTG it seemed like. The movement of the ship across the sea and having to figure out where you were in relation to the other boat's was great. We also usually just laid out the sea cards and kept the boat near it instead of placing it directly on the sea card.
23:10 “magic the gathering arena similarly wound up on discount in board game stores worldwide” I know this was an honest mistake, but what are you talking about here? MtG arena is the online version
Arena of the Planewalkers was a magic themed miniature game that hasbro released a few years ago
Arena was a cd disk that came with a deck in the 9ps if im nit mistaken
So fun fact, in Japan, the card arcade machine is pretty wide. Including ganbaride, which was a serious of games that used special cards with heroes and forms from kamen rider, having major significance when decade came out. The cards could even be gotten from boxes of snacks. And one infamous item of these games was the ganbaride Gaia memory, it’s one of the rarest kamen rider collectibles
Uh...you actually need more than $10 to start playing Yugi Oh!, at least to play at local. Ideally one need to spend $30 to get three of the same Structure Deck or Starter Deck to build the optimal build for said deck. This is something I really wish would change in the future.
Not really you can play with a single starter deck you probably won't win but you can still play just as much as anyone else
You can play with just the starter. Outside of teaching games where the opponent is holding back to explain things, it is not a good deck, but it is a legal to play deck.
He isn't talking about playing at any specific level but the bare minimum. All you need to play Yugioh is the 40-card deck.
the more he talked about a card + board game, the more i was thinking "you mean, Duelyst?"
Hi kohdok, please check the instagram message i sent you in regards to this video and the game i am devloping. In short, my game is a tcg that uses cards for a board, but i still think it works well and people have found it fun during playtesting, but i still wanted to discuss this further to get your thoughts.
Who are you playtesting with? If you haven't ventured outside your family/friends/roommates, you may need to do so.
@@Sadarac152 mostly friends but also people on campus. I have videos on my channel that explain the game and ive discussed it at last year's eTableCon
“I bet a lot of you are sneering...” Nah my man I was still just thrown off/in awe by that Battle Claw.
This sin was painfully biased to your own personal preferences. Disappointed.
I like the video. I look forward to exploring your channel some more. I would like to mention that Eye of Judgement faced a huge piracy problem back in the day. The availability of high-resolution scans leaked on the internet meant that people did not need to buy the actual booster packs to have a complete collection of cards. People could just print out the cards they wanted and the EyeToy could not tell the difference. Since this was a game designed to be played in living rooms and not in hobby stores, it is not like there is a judge standing over your shoulder looking for counterfeit cards.
I have been LOVING this eries dude, too bad we are only one episode away from it ending :((( But I can't wait to rewatch them all again!
Bro, that pirates card really brought me back. one year working at summer camp a bunch of us bought out the game store's stock of this and played it all the time
"You can't really get better at rolling random dice."
Tell that to us TTRPG players.
I think that was one of my favorite things about Raw Deal and Duel Masters. All you needed was the deck. No calculator, paper, life tracker, token, counters, anything.