I don't understand why manufacturers keep trying to turn everything into a cell phone! In practice the vast majority of people just use bluetooth audio and hands free.
@@panzerveps But to repeat myself, people don't actually use all the newest features. (Also, is quite uncommon for a person to get a new car every year.)
@@fredygump5578 Where I live, those who buy new cars replace them every 3 years. Every year was an exaggeration. Still, people want a car that's on par with their smart phone. Sure, they won't use 90% of the functions, but they want them.
@@panzerveps very true. Imagine how nice it would be if people were equally concerned about actually knowing how to drive & operate their car as well! I wish manufacturers would start engineering "anti left lane hog" technology!
I have been driving VWs since 1973 and working on them since my 1983 GTI. I divide VWs into two periods - before Vagcom and after Vagcom. When the Vagcom came out it took away the mystery and changed everything. It really helped me understand my 92 Corrado and later VWs. If my old serial Vagcom with a USB dongle doesn't readily work with mk8 VWs then I am not buying one. My 2015 Sportwagen TDI came with VW Car-Net which I didn't want because it makes me feel insecure and doesn't do anything I need. Luckily it was based on 3G which got discontinued, so it quit working. VW sent me a notification that said I could give them back control of my car by spending $300 on hardware, having it installed, and paying VW a monthly fee. So now that my Car-Net is dead I own the greatest VW that will ever be made! It doesn't have the noisy panoramic sunroof or problematic junk tech like ACC, automatic stopping, and light strips in the door panels. It is safe from over the air updates that could break a perfectly working vehicle. It averages 47 mpg in the city and 55 mpg when driving 75 mph. The manual transmission makes is fun to drive like a GTI. And my old Vagcom cable works without hassle. After 40 years of buying new VWs I guess I am done. The diagnostic limitations are the last straw. Maybe in 5 to 10 years I will buy a VW EV, but until then I will get a used VW with a manual transmission and use parts from vendors like DAP to keep it moving.
I took the car net module out of my GLI it was under the passenger seat. I needed to take it out for the rcd330 radio I put in for CarPlay/Android auto. I guess I’m safe from ota updates too!
Man I miss my old 83 GTI. And a side note I couldn't live without my ross tech either. I do remember the dude saying at the booth at water fest in 95 that we got one of his first ones. Haha it was in one of those project boxes from radio shack and the board was hot glued in place(he said it was a working prototype). Haha I got a 50' long phone cord so I could drop it out the window and use the house computer 🤣 It's hiding somewhere but I haven't seen it in years. If you're gonna fix your own VW ,haha don't even talk to me unless you've got a multimeter and know how to use it ,and a ross-tech.
@@RyanTheMalamute The 92 Corrado SLC was the first car VW delivered with the new VR6 engine. That made me buy a burgundy one which I still have. It was also the first engine with diagnostic communications and before the OBD port we now use was standardized. When I got my Vagcom I also bought an adapter cable with it that has an OBD end with two wires coming out of it. You pull off the trim around the shifter to reveal the two connectors those wires plug into. At that time the only component that was integrated was the engine, which is vagcom's most important function. None of the other parts of the car were integrated yet (ex: windows, stereo, locking system, ...).
SFD (Schutz der Fahrzeugdiagnose) is required by UNECE R-155 to homologate cars for Europe. FMVSS in North America Regions requires it, too. Believe me, it is a pain to implement in an ECU.
I think the reason for SFD was implemented was to stop people modifying software ,then running back to dealers demanding Warranty for destroyed engines and transmissions. Seen many media units " bricked" due to people trying to unlock features with unauthorised equipment!
Nah cause they can tell u reflashed the ecu or not. There’s a counter that tells them how many times was the ecu programmed so if u come in with blown engines or turbos and they see u flashed it they will know and deny but they would still have to cover stuff unrelated like window not working etc
@@sneakerhead4770 correct and this is since edc16 ecus.... Golf MK5's... the actual ones (i call them online shitboxes) recognize the reflash, no matter if you doing flash over OBD or BenchFlash by checking/verify the Checksumm in the ECU after cycling the ignition and send this data to the VAG Servers. So they know about your reflash and Engine/Drivetrain guarantee is over.
My local Audi dealership constantly: - avoiding to pick up their phone when you call to ask info or book a service - charges me for diagnostics and doesn’t deduct it when I decide to accept their repair proposal and pay for them (its ok to charge if you wanted diagnostics only and to repair yourself. But charge diagnostics and repairs…) - mess up their own parts order - refuse to do wheel alignment (the machine is “broken” like Ice Cream machine at McDonalds - overcharges - clearly is not used to repairing anything newer than 2012 cars (we are a poor country) - favours companies heavily and ignores “civilian” customers with service - mid repair “accidentally” realises that they need more parts…despite paying 70eur for diagnostics that told us a different price for repairs and parts But suree…me repairing my car is the problem!
Sorry for your shitty mechanics.What a bunch of dishonest scumbags. Hope everyone finds out how much of a scam artist they are so they go byebye out buisness sooner than later.
@@robkingsley9887 Usually the technician will still get paid for the diagnostic and the service center eats the cost. Speaking as a technician at a VW.
@@robkingsley9887 because thats what dealerships do usually. If you: 1. Come to Audi just to get a diagnose for your problem… you pay 70eur and get the report 2. Get Audi diagnostics and cost/parts estimate, agree to do the repairs with them. Then the dealership deducts the cost of diagnostics from your final bill. As it was then basically you paying them to tell you how much will you be paying. Like how if you would pay a person in clothing store for each request to bring you or look for the shoes that fit you.
As a vw tech, I have witnessed this become big with all VW MQB chassis 2020+ as when scanning vehicle with ODIS, you are given a message before aloud to scan “please open hood and connect vehicle to battery charger”. I believe this is VW responding to all those shortcut techs that like to not maintain vehicle voltage when scanning or performing module recoding/ software updates and/or configurations. As I have seen many techs ignore vehicle voltage leading to body module bricking AND in some rare cases, vehicle identification loss between VIN locked modules. I don’t believe it has any to do with the “right to repair” outside of the dealership however everyone outside of the dealership not using ODIS is directly effected.
@@whizzo94 no that is not the case where I am. No testing in Florida. Strictly opening the hood so a battery maintainer is installed so the vehicle does not freak out from low voltages.
This seems like an excessive and poorly thought out way to do that though. I am not a mechanic or work on cars, but i have an understanding of electronics and computers. From what I understand is it not something which could be solved by monitoring battery voltage, ? then not allowing certain functions if it keeps dropping, or designing the electronics to have more fail-safes like having backup ROM (at the cost of the customer). Also I feel this doesn't even address the problem because you can still disconnect the battery charger (e.g. having a power outage) after putting in the codes. It just doesn't seem likely to that that was their intentions, but I can only speculate...
Paul, I love the channel and your insights on VW. As a Passat owner it would be great to see them get some love on your channel. I love my car but finding VALUABLE information is a real struggle. Mine is a 21' SE, I have checked your site but it looks like options for tuning parts and your filters don't go the latest model years and engines. Thanks for all the great videos.
@@RayRay-pg3fx You're best gain is getting a tune. Probably set you back $400-500 for your car. Second best would be a performance suspension, springs and shocks. Id recommend getting an upgraded diverter vavle, GFB might have one for your gen Passat. Other than that Id leave it as is, most people dont expect to be passed by a Passat. Please, please, please dont get an exhaust or muffler!
@@danieloshaughnessy8476 So my thoughts are a down pipe, Inlet, Intercooler and tune. Suspension wise I just want a real subtle lower, like maybe an inch no more. My challenge is finding reliable sources for the parts.
@@RyanTheMalamute mk1s and then 2s for me ,but my mk2 is kinda special to me as my dad bought it new. It's an na diesel though, but pretty clean. I got it from him in '03 for 500$, because that's what the dealer offered him for trade in on an 03 golf. I haven't put up any vids of it in a long time, I've got some stuff to straighten out over the upcoming winter.
I have my doubts as to whether VW's intent is as altruistic as you're saying. I'm old enough to remember the literally hundreds of millions of dollars in lawsuits VWOA filed against many performance aftermarket companies in the early 2000's (example: Garrett Lim of GIAC was sued for some laughably huge amount, like 100 mil, for "software piracy" IE he developed software for the then-new Mk4 1.8T platform). VW Vortex, which was then a small forum page few had ever heard of, got sued. VWOA's legal dream team even went after small shops who used "VW" in their yellow pages ads.
Some companies take copyright stuff seriously. Some of these people you mentioned deserves to get sued. Were they right Everytime? No. But it sets of precedence if you don't do anything. So many people have used the VW logo for so many things over the years. I don't blame them at all.
So that's a little different. Volkswagen is obligated to sue those companies for piracy because they were breaking copyright. If a company doesn't sue when their copyright is infringed, the day something big happens and they are in court the other party can say "Well you didn't go after these other companies". Basically that opens them up to being bullied out of court in the future and them losing their intellectual property. Basically use it, or lose it type deal
I don't think I'll ever buy a car newer than 2016 or so. Between the insane emmisions regulations, manufacturers locking out systems, and stupid touchscreen controls it's just not worth it. Besides between 1980. and 2000. the difference in driveability is huge. Another 20 years later there is not much difference. Cars seem to have peaked around 2002. or so
This is purely to keep used modules from being installed in cars by shops that dont know what they are doing, you put a PCM in from a same year car that had a different engine and bad things happen. Component protection has to be removed if a different VIN is written in any module on the gateway before it can be programmed to that car. Just so happens to also affect tuners in a negative way lol.
It's probably a little bit of both, honestly. I think if they can dissuade people from working on their cars and funnel them to the dealer? That's great for them, but it's a secondary bonus for them. It's likely for security, but I think a 'better' way to do this would be a setting in the infotainment that would turn on a 'support tunnel' for a set amount of time. Whatever the average update takes + 15 minutes or something like that that ALSO requires the hood to be open. You can also ping people to the infotainment saying 'Update available' and then page number in the manual or a QR code for the instructions online to do it. You could even add an MD5 hash of the update to verify against the one in the release notes to verify it's the correct file before doing the update. This is sort of how enterprise IT equipment (including backup appliances and storage arrays) works nowadays. You can call support, and they have you turn on the support tunnel, otherwise there's no remote access to the device. It's secure and also lets you actually use your equipment as you see fit whilst still being open for OEM support when needed.
except when there is an ECU that is online there is always a way to hack it, whatever you try to implement to avoid it... the ECU already has to be online for the maps and stuff like that
It is not the choice of OEM to introduce cybersecurity in their complex electronic architecture. It is necessary for homologation of ece r155 and r156.
I don't like it, because there's almost no consumer benefit to over the air updates. Its great for manufacturers, but if the goal was consumer friendly they would have streamlined (and made free) the wired update method first. The goal of ota updates is the subscription model for features. Its not an end for the manufacturer by itself.
VW thinks people want cell phone features built into their car, like android auto, so it is for marketing. Some people might think they want it, but in reality they just play music and use hands free over bluetooth.
What makes you think the OTA updates are to enable or disable features based on subscriptions? I know BMW does that but do far they're alone. It's a common practice to distribute software updates that improve functionality of the car or fix bugs that show up later after a new car has been launched. Usually you bring the car to the dealership to get those updates though. OTA becomes particularly important if a security vulnerability is found. The fix can be distributed to everyone with that vehicle almost immediately, rather than expecting customers to return to the dealership for a recall. Its practically impossible to test all the software in a complex system, like a car, in all possible situations before its launch. So the ability to fix issues in the future is a benefit to the oem and the average customer.
@@joebormann7631 I would buy that but without OTA integration there's an extremely low level of vulnerability to security issues. That only pops up in a big way once they allow rewrites over the air, which they are all, not just VW, in the process of implementing. While I do understand the desire to fix 1st year bugs without roping in the customer, the dealer network works just fine for that as is. The car itself is a static software environment, it's only the phone integration that would require updates once everything else is stable, and that is handled 100% on the phone side already. There simply isn't a problem there as it is now, at least for any brand with a dealer network. Tesla otoh, needs it, but only because they have basically no service footprint. As far as subscriptions go...all the majors have announced plans/intentions on this. They have nearly all also announced the desire to be the ones gatekeeping and selling cellular data from in car use as opposed to android and apple. Both of these margin increasing plans absolutely require OTA to implement in any kind of profitable and streamlined manner. My problem is, I see zero benefit to myself as a new car buyer, only added and recurring costs.
Any manufacturer who actively prevents me from working on my car is burning itself from ever having me as a customer. Problem is, I'm not the weird kind of person who buys new cars. Old cars are competition for manufacturers who want to sell new, and although they like the notion of high resale value, they'd prefer those cars were off the road.
my understanding is the alarm will go off if you open the bonnet without a key, giving you a warning that it's being stolen. that's a response to people programming keys to cars and just driving them off that you see a lot of with key less ignition cars, also for security with wlan updates over air.
My assumption is all manufacturers are starting to do that because they think instead of these "apps" (bimmercode & the like) charging and making money off coding, they would just make the money themselves. They know people are going to do it no matter what so they figure they'd make the money on their bottom line. I mean I don't like it but I understand it from a business move by the manufacturers.
Thanks for sharing the need to open the hood. Tried to make changes with OBD11 and it would not work and gave no prompt to open hood. I will have to try again.
Paul - good video as always and important subject. I think there are two reasons for SFD - (a) they /VW/ wanted to protect features that were installed in the car, but not paid for - IMHO this was an avenue to prevent and easy "unlock" of such features, (b) as a by-design this could be used to "ensure" that adaptations are not modified, and as such the software updates are easier for VW by "expecting" a defined set of coding. This is becoming a bigger issue now for those expecting their OTA/Upgrades in the future on the newest cars, especially the ID family... The biggest mystery of the whole video - why was the SFD Unlock UI of VCDS in the video in Czech?
exactly ! you can also upgrade features after you bought the car by buy them / lease them and even try them for a specified amount of time..... welcome to the new playstation online shitbox cars 🤮
The goal is to reduce second hand market , and to make car obsolete faster so we can spend more money on new one . For example on some car with adblue witch are now come out of warranty . Changing some main parts of system is costing about 30% of car value . So that a car with 10 years or more will not be worth fixing this system. If goverment is demanding this system to be in place then it should cover all cost of maintaining.
Without knowing the inner workings of the system, it may very well be more complicated than that. For all we know it could be a hardware lock which makes remote hacking that much more difficult.
One part is always money. The other part is security for OTA updates, BUT this is the problem. OTA updates should not be on cars. If someone ever cares about security, it will always tell you that the most secure system is the one that is no connected. Of course people are lazy, and besides, "safety from hackers" or security in general is always the perfect excuse FOR EVERY TECH BUSINESS to slip in data collection that they can sell for even more money.
Just wait for the new security protocols on future ECUs to kick in 😅 I'm a Bosch intern in the Communications and Diagnosis VW team and they have very strict rules regarding the future.
Little off topic but would like to see a video on suspension adaptations with obdeleven pro. Seems straight forward but would like to see it done. Also ole Obdeleven seems like pulled ahead of competition on this one good on them.
Maybe VW was motivated by Dieselgate Jettas. People who had one would just not show up to the dealer for the reprogramming, once they knew it turned up EGR sludging rates and lowered MPG. I'm sure that made VW's conflict with the EPA even more difficult. All these extra robotic devices are one reason I aspire to own an Evo X. The other reason is that it will remain a classic now and forever because nothing like it is likely to be produced. An Evo XI isn't anywhere near in the works. I'm not sure of the best comparison to older VWs. Perhaps it is like seeing people buy a Gold R32 because they want the last of the VR6 engines, rather than a turbo four? VW had better be more careful adding this extra stuff. If they add too many, GTI sales might decline in favor of Honda Civic SI sales.
Still kinda feel like it's a black helicopter thing honestly. Wow the new expanded shop in NC looks amazing. Need to get with you or your people on my parts list for the turbo swap next year.
I came onto this video for help with the access code as I'm an independent garage . My friends works in vw and said to try . S12345 .... if that doesn't work and this one did for me 27971 that one gain access to resets was struggling with a 2023 reseting dpf data . Also he mention 12233 I didn't try that as I got in with the other I hope it help I'm in Europe ireland maybe us is different
Couple of weeks ago someone newer in the shop was programming keys and kept failing. Called me over and I restarted the process and boom the open hood message popped up(guess he was just clicking through to get through quicker) popped the hood and the keys programmed immediately. He spent about 25 minutes because he wasn't reading the instructions
Manufacturers create security problems with remote upgrades and poor software in unecessery electronics. The solution makes it harder for a car entusiast to repair their own car so they have to take it to a licenced repair shop. 🤔
OTA updates is a bad thing why do you want anyone else to have unlimited control over YOUR car, this happened with phones when bootloaders were locked down, when user removable batteries and sd card slots went away, andwhen apple decided to slow the cpus on older phones. Cars are going the same way like when BMW and toyota turned basic functionalities into subscription models, when tesla decided that you only get access to the entire battery in your car during a natural emergency, and when mercedes decided to scare you aware from opening your own hood. It’s all a way to keep you reliant on something you don’t own
I have a question maybe someone can help me? I own a Passat cc 2010 model and recently installed a "modest " car audio system and installed a new battery. Do i need to code a new battery in this model from 2010?? I have searched with obdeleven but no such function shows up...
One of the reasons we never drive a VW newer then 2008/09... and even the Golf3 can still be used, just needs RUST care 😉Golf2 and 1 are not so recommended to use as daily car. Missing many safety featues etc. But 3 has airbags and some modells ABS etc too... and more comfort.... CHEERS Buy a 3 or 4 Golf without sunroof which had rust care. These are cheaper to maintain and reliable compared to 2010+ cars. Also BMW, Toyota,Audi and Nissan can be recommended from 2010 o earlier :)) Nissan mostly do not look good - but reliable
Im just trying to open the rear electro mechanical parking brake on a 2023 RS3 and its SFD Locked, FML WTF. I'm just trying to do some rear brakes over here!!!!!!!!!!
I just noticed that my obdeleven has now lost the ability to manually code anything into the system now (I suspect that it's because they launched Pro and now you have to pay for this). Not cool.
2:46 What is the difference to pay them money for acessing those Codes? Not much. You simply have not full access to a car you already bought. 3:08 ... but who owns the car if the manufacturer can mess with it via OTA Updates?
I would like to buy many things that they have in their online store, too bad they don't ship outside the USA, I had to ask an aunt for a favor so that she could buy me the harness for the taillights and send them to me in mx
Presumably this SFD thing isn't like a Subscription thing that stop owners from being able to use heated seat warmers for example which BMW for example have thought about doing (or may have even started doing(????)) which if the customer/ owner of the car then does Subscribe they (BMW (for example)) would then unlock over the airwaves via and update and thus allowing the heated seat warmers to be used. Or have got this whole thing totally wrong??
No, the SFD 'token' is at a basic level identical to the old passwords and relates to _programming_ a car. Enter the passcode -> you get about an hour to change 'hardware' settings. The only difference is that the SFD password is a one-time use and each time you need to ask VAG's 'mothership' for a new one, the old ones were just hardcoded in the car and never changed. Currently the main issue is that asking VW for the code is not obvious and requires tools usually only dealers have. Now OBD11 also supports it so its obviously becoming accessible. At the end of the day, the major change is that VAG now has a trace of each time a car's programming has been changed (and which component) and by who, since someone has to ask them for the access code each time. Someone reprogrammed ECU and blew an engine? VAG can prove it. (besides the fuses in the ECU, the SFD also knows WHO did it) Someone reprogrammed the car to allow running engine with the doors locked (illegal in eu)? VAG can prove it did not come like that from the factory. Will VAG go draconic and disallow people access to adapt their cars for retrofits/minor feature changes, only time will tell.
So if the hood has to be popped..... what's the point of wireless? It sounds like wireless access was created to explain SFD and if the access was from the OBD2 port you could easily not have SFD on that physical access port. SFD will be expanded as the plant stories like "car was hacked" and then it will truly become a crypto nightmare.
why would they let ODBeleven have SFD unlock if it was designed to lock the consumer out. For once I can give props to VW for this. Though they do get to make a bunch of extra cash ofc ofc.
I heard that VW is doing this because there is many assistent systems in a cars nowdays and it becomes dangerous knowing that whatever dude with 40 dollars diagnostic can mess his own car. It can result in accident. You can still access everything you just have to go through VW servers. VW wants to know who want to modify their cars. I don't think that VW is doing this to prevent right to repair. VW group is one of the best i terms of supplying repair manuals, diagnostics and tools. You just have to pay reasonable fee on Erwin web portal then you can do 95% of what dealer can do.
You can’t tell me that they’re not getting some kind of analytics back in return that way they could benefit from your use of the car also when I buy a car I want to be the only one that can control it mechanic of 25 years here I don’t want OnStar or anybody else having the Ability to control my vehicle
Purchase an VW and Audi specific scan tool for your iPhone or Android HERE
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Right to repair - very important subject. Thank you for covering this.
I don't understand why manufacturers keep trying to turn everything into a cell phone! In practice the vast majority of people just use bluetooth audio and hands free.
It's simple: because that is what the average consumer wants.
Most consumers don't want the same car they had last year. They want something new.
@@panzerveps But to repeat myself, people don't actually use all the newest features. (Also, is quite uncommon for a person to get a new car every year.)
@@fredygump5578 Where I live, those who buy new cars replace them every 3 years.
Every year was an exaggeration.
Still, people want a car that's on par with their smart phone. Sure, they won't use 90% of the functions, but they want them.
@@panzerveps very true. Imagine how nice it would be if people were equally concerned about actually knowing how to drive & operate their car as well!
I wish manufacturers would start engineering "anti left lane hog" technology!
@@RothBeyondTheGrave Yeah, that's something that annoys me as well.
And locking the steering wheel unless you use the blinkers.
I have been driving VWs since 1973 and working on them since my 1983 GTI. I divide VWs into two periods - before Vagcom and after Vagcom. When the Vagcom came out it took away the mystery and changed everything. It really helped me understand my 92 Corrado and later VWs. If my old serial Vagcom with a USB dongle doesn't readily work with mk8 VWs then I am not buying one.
My 2015 Sportwagen TDI came with VW Car-Net which I didn't want because it makes me feel insecure and doesn't do anything I need. Luckily it was based on 3G which got discontinued, so it quit working. VW sent me a notification that said I could give them back control of my car by spending $300 on hardware, having it installed, and paying VW a monthly fee.
So now that my Car-Net is dead I own the greatest VW that will ever be made! It doesn't have the noisy panoramic sunroof or problematic junk tech like ACC, automatic stopping, and light strips in the door panels. It is safe from over the air updates that could break a perfectly working vehicle. It averages 47 mpg in the city and 55 mpg when driving 75 mph. The manual transmission makes is fun to drive like a GTI. And my old Vagcom cable works without hassle.
After 40 years of buying new VWs I guess I am done. The diagnostic limitations are the last straw. Maybe in 5 to 10 years I will buy a VW EV, but until then I will get a used VW with a manual transmission and use parts from vendors like DAP to keep it moving.
I took the car net module out of my GLI it was under the passenger seat. I needed to take it out for the rcd330 radio I put in for CarPlay/Android auto. I guess I’m safe from ota updates too!
Man I miss my old 83 GTI.
And a side note I couldn't live without my ross tech either.
I do remember the dude saying at the booth at water fest in 95 that we got one of his first ones.
Haha it was in one of those project boxes from radio shack and the board was hot glued in place(he said it was a working prototype).
Haha I got a 50' long phone cord so I could drop it out the window and use the house computer 🤣
It's hiding somewhere but I haven't seen it in years.
If you're gonna fix your own VW ,haha don't even talk to me unless you've got a multimeter and know how to use it ,and a ross-tech.
How did you use VagCom on a 92 Corrado...?
@@RyanTheMalamute The 92 Corrado SLC was the first car VW delivered with the new VR6 engine. That made me buy a burgundy one which I still have. It was also the first engine with diagnostic communications and before the OBD port we now use was standardized.
When I got my Vagcom I also bought an adapter cable with it that has an OBD end with two wires coming out of it. You pull off the trim around the shifter to reveal the two connectors those wires plug into. At that time the only component that was integrated was the engine, which is vagcom's most important function. None of the other parts of the car were integrated yet (ex: windows, stereo, locking system, ...).
SFD (Schutz der Fahrzeugdiagnose) is required by UNECE R-155 to homologate cars for Europe. FMVSS in North America Regions requires it, too. Believe me, it is a pain to implement in an ECU.
Pop quiz, How do politicians and bureaucrats know what highly technical laws and rules to make?
Hint from Rollerdome, "Who run Bartertown?"
I think the reason for SFD was implemented was to stop people modifying software ,then running back to dealers demanding Warranty for destroyed engines and transmissions. Seen many media units " bricked" due to people trying to unlock features with unauthorised equipment!
Nah cause they can tell u reflashed the ecu or not. There’s a counter that tells them how many times was the ecu programmed so if u come in with blown engines or turbos and they see u flashed it they will know and deny but they would still have to cover stuff unrelated like window not working etc
@@sneakerhead4770 correct and this is since edc16 ecus.... Golf MK5's... the actual ones (i call them online shitboxes) recognize the reflash, no matter if you doing flash over OBD or BenchFlash by checking/verify the Checksumm in the ECU after cycling the ignition and send this data to the VAG Servers. So they know about your reflash and Engine/Drivetrain guarantee is over.
My local Audi dealership constantly:
- avoiding to pick up their phone when you call to ask info or book a service
- charges me for diagnostics and doesn’t deduct it when I decide to accept their repair proposal and pay for them (its ok to charge if you wanted diagnostics only and to repair yourself. But charge diagnostics and repairs…)
- mess up their own parts order
- refuse to do wheel alignment (the machine is “broken” like Ice Cream machine at McDonalds
- overcharges
- clearly is not used to repairing anything newer than 2012 cars (we are a poor country)
- favours companies heavily and ignores “civilian” customers with service
- mid repair “accidentally” realises that they need more parts…despite paying 70eur for diagnostics that told us a different price for repairs and parts
But suree…me repairing my car is the problem!
Sorry for your shitty mechanics.What a bunch of dishonest scumbags. Hope everyone finds out how much of a scam artist they are so they go byebye out buisness sooner than later.
How dare a technician get paid to diagnose a car whether you get the work done there or not!
I went to my dealer to have them run a preventative scan on my timing system. they refused. they said they only run scans if check engine light is on.
@@robkingsley9887 Usually the technician will still get paid for the diagnostic and the service center eats the cost. Speaking as a technician at a VW.
@@robkingsley9887 because thats what dealerships do usually. If you:
1. Come to Audi just to get a diagnose for your problem… you pay 70eur and get the report
2. Get Audi diagnostics and cost/parts estimate, agree to do the repairs with them. Then the dealership deducts the cost of diagnostics from your final bill. As it was then basically you paying them to tell you how much will you be paying. Like how if you would pay a person in clothing store for each request to bring you or look for the shoes that fit you.
As a vw tech, I have witnessed this become big with all VW MQB chassis 2020+ as when scanning vehicle with ODIS, you are given a message before aloud to scan “please open hood and connect vehicle to battery charger”. I believe this is VW responding to all those shortcut techs that like to not maintain vehicle voltage when scanning or performing module recoding/ software updates and/or configurations. As I have seen many techs ignore vehicle voltage leading to body module bricking AND in some rare cases, vehicle identification loss between VIN locked modules. I don’t believe it has any to do with the “right to repair” outside of the dealership however everyone outside of the dealership not using ODIS is directly effected.
Exactly what i was thinking!
Do VW need you to open the hood in case the vehicle is being emissions tested so the ecu can change it's mapping LOL?
@@whizzo94 no that is not the case where I am. No testing in Florida. Strictly opening the hood so a battery maintainer is installed so the vehicle does not freak out from low voltages.
@@whizzo94Ford actually did this in the late 1970s or early 1980s. They got caught.
This seems like an excessive and poorly thought out way to do that though. I am not a mechanic or work on cars, but i have an understanding of electronics and computers.
From what I understand is it not something which could be solved by monitoring battery voltage, ? then not allowing certain functions if it keeps dropping, or designing the electronics to have more fail-safes like having backup ROM (at the cost of the customer). Also I feel this doesn't even address the problem because you can still disconnect the battery charger (e.g. having a power outage) after putting in the codes. It just doesn't seem likely to that that was their intentions, but I can only speculate...
Paul, I love the channel and your insights on VW. As a Passat owner it would be great to see them get some love on your channel. I love my car but finding VALUABLE information is a real struggle. Mine is a 21' SE, I have checked your site but it looks like options for tuning parts and your filters don't go the latest model years and engines. Thanks for all the great videos.
Passat's just don't get the love that they deserve, but that's ok I love my hidden gem. It's not a head turner and that's a good thing!
@@danieloshaughnessy8476 Exactly!!! I am not looking to draw attention but I want to be able to go by someone and they say What the hell was that?
@@RayRay-pg3fx You're best gain is getting a tune. Probably set you back $400-500 for your car. Second best would be a performance suspension, springs and shocks. Id recommend getting an upgraded diverter vavle, GFB might have one for your gen Passat. Other than that Id leave it as is, most people dont expect to be passed by a Passat. Please, please, please dont get an exhaust or muffler!
@@danieloshaughnessy8476 So my thoughts are a down pipe, Inlet, Intercooler and tune. Suspension wise I just want a real subtle lower, like maybe an inch no more. My challenge is finding reliable sources for the parts.
@@RayRay-pg3fx Well tunes can be really rough on the cars. Id just go with a stiffer suspension and call it a day.
You know what else keeps Hackerman from accessing your car?
Not putting in systems that allow remote access. 🤯
Haha driving a 91 Jetta coupe helps too.
@@MrTheHillfolk oh, a mk2 lover? I got an 85
NaL pfp opinion discarded
@@RyanTheMalamute mk1s and then 2s for me ,but my mk2 is kinda special to me as my dad bought it new.
It's an na diesel though, but pretty clean.
I got it from him in '03 for 500$, because that's what the dealer offered him for trade in on an 03 golf.
I haven't put up any vids of it in a long time, I've got some stuff to straighten out over the upcoming winter.
@@madiebon_5440 hazbin hotel. Literally toejam.
I have my doubts as to whether VW's intent is as altruistic as you're saying.
I'm old enough to remember the literally hundreds of millions of dollars in lawsuits VWOA filed against many performance aftermarket companies in the early 2000's (example: Garrett Lim of GIAC was sued for some laughably huge amount, like 100 mil, for "software piracy" IE he developed software for the then-new Mk4 1.8T platform). VW Vortex, which was then a small forum page few had ever heard of, got sued. VWOA's legal dream team even went after small shops who used "VW" in their yellow pages ads.
Some companies take copyright stuff seriously. Some of these people you mentioned deserves to get sued. Were they right Everytime? No. But it sets of precedence if you don't do anything. So many people have used the VW logo for so many things over the years. I don't blame them at all.
So that's a little different. Volkswagen is obligated to sue those companies for piracy because they were breaking copyright. If a company doesn't sue when their copyright is infringed, the day something big happens and they are in court the other party can say "Well you didn't go after these other companies". Basically that opens them up to being bullied out of court in the future and them losing their intellectual property. Basically use it, or lose it type deal
No doubt but I do think VW is trying to turn things around.
This is exactly why I will keep my Mk7 GTI forever.. No unlock or digital cockpit and touch screen nonsense...
Amen
Hello friend
they are ALL cheap to produce and expensive to buy. It's a CGI system
I like my digital cockpit. But I'm with you in that this is as far as I'm going with my Audi. The 8V is generation is fine for me.
I don't think I'll ever buy a car newer than 2016 or so. Between the insane emmisions regulations, manufacturers locking out systems, and stupid touchscreen controls it's just not worth it. Besides between 1980. and 2000. the difference in driveability is huge. Another 20 years later there is not much difference. Cars seem to have peaked around 2002. or so
This is purely to keep used modules from being installed in cars by shops that dont know what they are doing, you put a PCM in from a same year car that had a different engine and bad things happen. Component protection has to be removed if a different VIN is written in any module on the gateway before it can be programmed to that car. Just so happens to also affect tuners in a negative way lol.
Good call on OTA... I think you are right, and open hood is a secondary protection..
Sadly this sounds like a necessary evil. VW seems to make it easier than most of the other manufacturers
It's probably a little bit of both, honestly. I think if they can dissuade people from working on their cars and funnel them to the dealer? That's great for them, but it's a secondary bonus for them. It's likely for security, but I think a 'better' way to do this would be a setting in the infotainment that would turn on a 'support tunnel' for a set amount of time. Whatever the average update takes + 15 minutes or something like that that ALSO requires the hood to be open. You can also ping people to the infotainment saying 'Update available' and then page number in the manual or a QR code for the instructions online to do it. You could even add an MD5 hash of the update to verify against the one in the release notes to verify it's the correct file before doing the update.
This is sort of how enterprise IT equipment (including backup appliances and storage arrays) works nowadays. You can call support, and they have you turn on the support tunnel, otherwise there's no remote access to the device. It's secure and also lets you actually use your equipment as you see fit whilst still being open for OEM support when needed.
except when there is an ECU that is online there is always a way to hack it, whatever you try to implement to avoid it... the ECU already has to be online for the maps and stuff like that
@@WhiteG60 there is always a way. But sometimes there's not enough money on the line.
It is not the choice of OEM to introduce cybersecurity in their complex electronic architecture. It is necessary for homologation of ece r155 and r156.
I don't like it, because there's almost no consumer benefit to over the air updates. Its great for manufacturers, but if the goal was consumer friendly they would have streamlined (and made free) the wired update method first.
The goal of ota updates is the subscription model for features. Its not an end for the manufacturer by itself.
VW thinks people want cell phone features built into their car, like android auto, so it is for marketing. Some people might think they want it, but in reality they just play music and use hands free over bluetooth.
What makes you think the OTA updates are to enable or disable features based on subscriptions? I know BMW does that but do far they're alone. It's a common practice to distribute software updates that improve functionality of the car or fix bugs that show up later after a new car has been launched. Usually you bring the car to the dealership to get those updates though.
OTA becomes particularly important if a security vulnerability is found. The fix can be distributed to everyone with that vehicle almost immediately, rather than expecting customers to return to the dealership for a recall.
Its practically impossible to test all the software in a complex system, like a car, in all possible situations before its launch. So the ability to fix issues in the future is a benefit to the oem and the average customer.
@@joebormann7631 I would buy that but without OTA integration there's an extremely low level of vulnerability to security issues. That only pops up in a big way once they allow rewrites over the air, which they are all, not just VW, in the process of implementing. While I do understand the desire to fix 1st year bugs without roping in the customer, the dealer network works just fine for that as is. The car itself is a static software environment, it's only the phone integration that would require updates once everything else is stable, and that is handled 100% on the phone side already. There simply isn't a problem there as it is now, at least for any brand with a dealer network. Tesla otoh, needs it, but only because they have basically no service footprint.
As far as subscriptions go...all the majors have announced plans/intentions on this. They have nearly all also announced the desire to be the ones gatekeeping and selling cellular data from in car use as opposed to android and apple. Both of these margin increasing plans absolutely require OTA to implement in any kind of profitable and streamlined manner. My problem is, I see zero benefit to myself as a new car buyer, only added and recurring costs.
...And this is why I love my B5.5 Passat...
Any manufacturer who actively prevents me from working on my car is burning itself from ever having me as a customer. Problem is, I'm not the weird kind of person who buys new cars. Old cars are competition for manufacturers who want to sell new, and although they like the notion of high resale value, they'd prefer those cars were off the road.
my understanding is the alarm will go off if you open the bonnet without a key, giving you a warning that it's being stolen. that's a response to people programming keys to cars and just driving them off that you see a lot of with key less ignition cars, also for security with wlan updates over air.
Like the way BMW are charging monthly subscription fees, to use features already in the car from factory.
Bmw after a minor crash " I told you to renew your subscription for automatic emergency brake feature, sir"
@@LeoNidasPlayForFun 🤣🤣🤣👌
My assumption is all manufacturers are starting to do that because they think instead of these "apps" (bimmercode & the like) charging and making money off coding, they would just make the money themselves. They know people are going to do it no matter what so they figure they'd make the money on their bottom line. I mean I don't like it but I understand it from a business move by the manufacturers.
This man's been bought!
Thanks for sharing the need to open the hood. Tried to make changes with OBD11 and it would not work and gave no prompt to open hood. I will have to try again.
Paul - good video as always and important subject. I think there are two reasons for SFD - (a) they /VW/ wanted to protect features that were installed in the car, but not paid for - IMHO this was an avenue to prevent and easy "unlock" of such features, (b) as a by-design this could be used to "ensure" that adaptations are not modified, and as such the software updates are easier for VW by "expecting" a defined set of coding. This is becoming a bigger issue now for those expecting their OTA/Upgrades in the future on the newest cars, especially the ID family...
The biggest mystery of the whole video - why was the SFD Unlock UI of VCDS in the video in Czech?
So feature is built in, priced in base models but you have to get gouged to use em. Modern corporate scam.
exactly ! you can also upgrade features after you bought the car by buy them / lease them and even try them for a specified amount of time..... welcome to the new playstation online shitbox cars 🤮
The goal is to reduce second hand market , and to make car obsolete faster so we can spend more money on new one . For example on some car with adblue witch are now come out of warranty . Changing some main parts of system is costing about 30% of car value . So that a car with 10 years or more will not be worth fixing this system. If goverment is demanding this system to be in place then it should cover all cost of maintaining.
In my modest opinion, Hackerman could just as well have the car think the hood is open, then proceed to hack it and have it go off the cliff.
Without knowing the inner workings of the system, it may very well be more complicated than that. For all we know it could be a hardware lock which makes remote hacking that much more difficult.
One part is always money. The other part is security for OTA updates, BUT this is the problem. OTA updates should not be on cars. If someone ever cares about security, it will always tell you that the most secure system is the one that is no connected. Of course people are lazy, and besides, "safety from hackers" or security in general is always the perfect excuse FOR EVERY TECH BUSINESS to slip in data collection that they can sell for even more money.
Just wait for the new security protocols on future ECUs to kick in 😅
I'm a Bosch intern in the Communications and Diagnosis VW team and they have very strict rules regarding the future.
I’m sure it’s going to be wild
pro edition doesn't require extra spending for SFD. so that's good.
As long as you have access to it via OBD11 which literally a kinder garden child can buy, it’s quite clear it’s not intent to prohibit end users….
It is a paywall that prohibits endusers from acessing that feature.
side profile of that car, looks great.
ota is nice, anything to not go to dealership is best.
Little off topic but would like to see a video on suspension adaptations with obdeleven pro. Seems straight forward but would like to see it done. Also ole Obdeleven seems like pulled ahead of competition on this one good on them.
I bought a solid steering lock making it even more difficult for a potential thief as an added security protection. 👍😉
Maybe VW was motivated by Dieselgate Jettas. People who had one would just not show up to the dealer for the reprogramming, once they knew it turned up EGR sludging rates and lowered MPG. I'm sure that made VW's conflict with the EPA even more difficult.
All these extra robotic devices are one reason I aspire to own an Evo X. The other reason is that it will remain a classic now and forever because nothing like it is likely to be produced. An Evo XI isn't anywhere near in the works. I'm not sure of the best comparison to older VWs. Perhaps it is like seeing people buy a Gold R32 because they want the last of the VR6 engines, rather than a turbo four?
VW had better be more careful adding this extra stuff. If they add too many, GTI sales might decline in favor of Honda Civic SI sales.
VWOA isn’t selling huge numbers of GTIs. Most dealerships are only getting 1 golf r, and 1 GTI a year. Big dealers get 2 each.
Of course they are. Im disgusted with the direction car companies have taken.
You guys should sell MkII stuff, also. Parts for those are like locating the Holy Grail anymore.
I do think the security is needed to stop any potential safety issue. As technology advance and change, so does the crime.
SEM like the “good ol’ days” lol … imagine a lot of folks never even had to consider this.
Pretty sure it's the precursor to vw not being able to have there obd2 reprogram for aftermarket tuning
If your car won't run, just wait a little time for The Great Reset which will allow you to rent repairs.
Still kinda feel like it's a black helicopter thing honestly. Wow the new expanded shop in NC looks amazing. Need to get with you or your people on my parts list for the turbo swap next year.
Thanks for the support. Let us know we’re glad to help!
So I am able to do the remote window close w.o voiding my warranty?
For me it means ...keep my VW T4 as long as possible!! Specially with alle the changes to electricity here in the EU ...
I came onto this video for help with the access code as I'm an independent garage . My friends works in vw and said to try . S12345 .... if that doesn't work and this one did for me 27971 that one gain access to resets was struggling with a 2023 reseting dpf data . Also he mention 12233 I didn't try that as I got in with the other I hope it help I'm in Europe ireland maybe us is different
I need to access the PIN to adapt new fob on the Mk4. I have VCDS but can't get the PIN. What methods are available?
Couple of weeks ago someone newer in the shop was programming keys and kept failing. Called me over and I restarted the process and boom the open hood message popped up(guess he was just clicking through to get through quicker) popped the hood and the keys programmed immediately. He spent about 25 minutes because he wasn't reading the instructions
I assume that he did not have the power supply when he was programming new key's not a good idea.
We own are last late model vw now and hope to get rid of it soon.
0:52 is that thing already rusting under the leading edge of the front doors?
I wouldn’t imagine so, newer VW’s are pretty good against rust
It looks like a bit of road grime to me
notification squad, Have a nice weekend!🔥🔥🔥
And isnt this were 3rd party ECU's enter the game like ABT and APR?
what about ODB eleven and SFD2 like in the 2024 models? Are you able to unlock it?
Nice Video, grettings from Germany
They are supposed to be a means of getting from A to B we’ve gone too far. Didn’t anyone learn anything from chip shortage crisis.
What wheels does the gti have on? Looks amazing!
Hi Paul can you please, help me on the Polo 2022 model I want to do. needle sweep so I switch it on on the app but doesn't do...
Whoever came up with the option, or the opinion that a vehicle needed to be smart enough to be able to drive itself off a cliff?
So could these over the air updates remove an aftermarket tune?
This is why older models are more desirable, less tech,
I need that MK5 Holy Shift. like NOW!!!
I want to know your thoughts on the GLI and what parts of the gti can be used in a gli and if you have any products that can make a gli faster.
Manufacturers create security problems with remote upgrades and poor software in unecessery electronics. The solution makes it harder for a car entusiast to repair their own car so they have to take it to a licenced repair shop. 🤔
OTA updates is a bad thing why do you want anyone else to have unlimited control over YOUR car, this happened with phones when bootloaders were locked down, when user removable batteries and sd card slots went away, andwhen apple decided to slow the cpus on older phones. Cars are going the same way like when BMW and toyota turned basic functionalities into subscription models, when tesla decided that you only get access to the entire battery in your car during a natural emergency, and when mercedes decided to scare you aware from opening your own hood. It’s all a way to keep you reliant on something you don’t own
I have a question maybe someone can help me? I own a Passat cc 2010 model and recently installed a "modest " car audio system and installed a new battery. Do i need to code a new battery in this model from 2010?? I have searched with obdeleven but no such function shows up...
One of the reasons we never drive a VW newer then 2008/09... and even the Golf3 can still be used, just needs RUST care 😉Golf2 and 1 are not so recommended to use as daily car. Missing many safety featues etc. But 3 has airbags and some modells ABS etc too... and more comfort.... CHEERS Buy a 3 or 4 Golf without sunroof which had rust care. These are cheaper to maintain and reliable compared to 2010+ cars. Also BMW, Toyota,Audi and Nissan can be recommended from 2010 o earlier :)) Nissan mostly do not look good - but reliable
are you going to bring back the Center Exit (Mk5 R32) Exhaust for the MK7/MK7.5? if not, why? :(
Im just trying to open the rear electro mechanical parking brake on a 2023 RS3 and its SFD Locked, FML WTF. I'm just trying to do some rear brakes over here!!!!!!!!!!
Yes. most cars are design to have a life time of a leasing contract.
i just bought Carly and i want to code a dpf pressure sensor so that my car see's it, am i out of luck ?
Why would you call the on board diagnosis port ii, obd11? I don't understand
It’s the brand of the Scan tool
I just noticed that my obdeleven has now lost the ability to manually code anything into the system now (I suspect that it's because they launched Pro and now you have to pay for this). Not cool.
Good morning 🌞
2:46 What is the difference to pay them money for acessing those Codes? Not much. You simply have not full access to a car you already bought.
3:08 ... but who owns the car if the manufacturer can mess with it via OTA Updates?
I would like to buy many things that they have in their online store, too bad they don't ship outside the USA, I had to ask an aunt for a favor so that she could buy me the harness for the taillights and send them to me in mx
Paul, at 0:53 you got a bubble in your tire.
My obd11 got stolen and I bought from you, I guess I know what that means ;)
i can help you for odis online Programming if you want, experience since 2006
Presumably this SFD thing isn't like a Subscription thing that stop owners from being able to use heated seat warmers for example which BMW for example have thought about doing (or may have even started doing(????)) which if the customer/ owner of the car then does Subscribe they (BMW (for example)) would then unlock over the airwaves via and update and thus allowing the heated seat warmers to be used. Or have got this whole thing totally wrong??
No, the SFD 'token' is at a basic level identical to the old passwords and relates to _programming_ a car. Enter the passcode -> you get about an hour to change 'hardware' settings. The only difference is that the SFD password is a one-time use and each time you need to ask VAG's 'mothership' for a new one, the old ones were just hardcoded in the car and never changed.
Currently the main issue is that asking VW for the code is not obvious and requires tools usually only dealers have. Now OBD11 also supports it so its obviously becoming accessible.
At the end of the day, the major change is that VAG now has a trace of each time a car's programming has been changed (and which component) and by who, since someone has to ask them for the access code each time.
Someone reprogrammed ECU and blew an engine? VAG can prove it. (besides the fuses in the ECU, the SFD also knows WHO did it)
Someone reprogrammed the car to allow running engine with the doors locked (illegal in eu)? VAG can prove it did not come like that from the factory.
Will VAG go draconic and disallow people access to adapt their cars for retrofits/minor feature changes, only time will tell.
you cant put the electric handbrake in service mode without sfd so YES they prevent from repairing
What wheels are those??
I'm just waiting for the moment where you listen to music in your car and an ad appears where you can pay to have ads removed from offline music.
So if the hood has to be popped..... what's the point of wireless? It sounds like wireless access was created to explain SFD and if the access was from the OBD2 port you could easily not have SFD on that physical access port. SFD will be expanded as the plant stories like "car was hacked" and then it will truly become a crypto nightmare.
broski why didnt you buy b9 s4 insted?
Yes... the answers yes
why would they let ODBeleven have SFD unlock if it was designed to lock the consumer out. For once I can give props to VW for this. Though they do get to make a bunch of extra cash ofc ofc.
so, TL;DR:
step 1) add unsecured systems(OTA updates), prone to being hacked.
step 2) use step 1 as an excuse to lock down your car.
nice
VW has always tried to lock you out of working on your own cars.
lol 5 second mark I can see the mess up on the bumper sensor....
Ah yes, ze german engineering, brand new MK8 GTI - 50 FAULTS!
and half of them will be "implausible signal"
Germans can't do electronics, a well known phenomena.
I heard that VW is doing this because there is many assistent systems in a cars nowdays and it becomes dangerous knowing that whatever dude with 40 dollars diagnostic can mess his own car. It can result in accident. You can still access everything you just have to go through VW servers. VW wants to know who want to modify their cars. I don't think that VW is doing this to prevent right to repair. VW group is one of the best i terms of supplying repair manuals, diagnostics and tools. You just have to pay reasonable fee on Erwin web portal then you can do 95% of what dealer can do.
It's weird VCDS didn't make a deal
i know a few are starting to do that. Chrysler is one big offender. i had issues using my snapon scan tool on a 2020 jeep today
Too much technology and I think it’s a terrible idea even having no key anymore unlock everything with app from your phone scary times
Another reason never to buy a new car.
They did it to push small garages out of business
Yeah ‘22 Tiguan doesn’t allow me to code it
Paul, i am 100% sure ,your german sounds wonderful ....maybe, probably not.....🙂
Can you still get performance tunes for the newer models?
No, only piggy back tune.
@@fedjadrndarski5606 dang. I guess it will be mk7.5s until they figure out how to crack the ECU.
You can’t tell me that they’re not getting some kind of analytics back in return that way they could benefit from your use of the car also when I buy a car I want to be the only one that can control it mechanic of 25 years here I don’t want OnStar or anybody else having the Ability to control my vehicle