Good to see I'm not the only one using those sharp alu inserts on steel. The quality and capability of the machine is greatly improved by using them. I have even been able to carefully cut very hard steel with them.
I also use CCGT inserts on steel for light cuts. I find they work very well. Last week I bought some CBN inserts - CCMT 060402 and used them in my late father's Myford Super 7B to rough turn some 15/64" high speed steel drill blanks, before finishing in a cutter grinder. I made very successful tapered D bits, or toolmakers reamers for making inject cones for a miniature boiler feed injector. Thanks are due to Stefan Gotteswinter for bringing hard turning to my attention in a TH-cam video. The Myford isn't really fast enough at 2150 rpm, but with tiny cuts it got the job done..
Glad you worked on this with actual usability being the goal. Things like the gentle chamfers to not hurt yourself or the material you're working on always pay off in the long run.
you've checked only for concentricity and now your collet taper axis is not perpendicular to the collet chuck base - that's why you get random readings on a dial indicator. in your case the best way to do (or fix) this job is to take a known good quality collet and a piece of steel bar. 1. mount a bar into lathe chuck. support it with tailstock. cut it into 12mm rod (max diameter which ER20 collet can handle) 2. put 12mm collet into collet chuck and fit it onto your 12mm bar. then tighten the collet - voila. your collet is concentric an in-line with your lathe spindle. 3. bring tailstock back and cut (fix) all your features. (precision of this method are determined by precision of a collet you are using. obviously)
If you look up the originators of ER collets (rego-fix) you can find the recommended torque for the nut, it is higher than you would imagine for proper tightness and concentricity.
Great work. I am in the process of retrofitting a Boxford 160 cnc lathe which has the same spindle. I may steal some of your ideas when it comes to making work holding tooling! The project is on hold while I build a shed for my wife, hopefully I will be back at it soon!
Thank you very much for your comment! Happy to hear to give you some inspiration. Good luck for your projects. I have to look up your machine. Sounds very interesting.
I enjoyed the video and thanks for showing the process and problems. It may be that your collet precision was compromised by assuming the nose of the collet holder was machined to the same accuracy as the ground inner collet taper. Clamping to the OD of the nose and machining from that as a reference, likely created a bit of error. It may have been better to use a precision mandrel in a large ER collet, and machined everything using the collet-held mandrel as the reference. Also, I think you really want that tight press fit on the back plate for repeatability without having to repeatedly drag out an indicator when you swap chucks. We learn by doing! Thanks again.
That was impressive. Well done. Especially for a small lathe. That may be something that I can adapt to one of my Atlas/Craftsman small lathes. Thank you.
Straight away I recognised the 80mm chuck from a Emco Compact 5. I've had 2 of the non cnc lathes. I converted my second one to CNC. First with steppers including the spindle and currently with servos. Four axes. Spindle, carriage, cross slide and tailstock. My 80mm chuck died many years ago and I adapted a 100mm 3 jaw to it. Right now I am replacing the 400W spindle servo and controller that only gives me 1500rpm with a 1kW AC servo that will give me 3000rpm.
its vary cool. its nice to have a bolt on chuck with an er16. for mine i just took an extended er32 holder and cut off the flange and tapper the i just indicate that in in the 4 jaw. i felt it was much easier then bolting the 4 jaw and having to tap in something else to the spindle nose.
You could've used the key slot to keep the chuck in place during tightening, with an ER40 hook wrench (or some mm size that fits). These have to be pretty tight.
At 18:40, at the current concentricity setpoint, does changing the collet to a different size collet give the same concentric results? Does the central axis of the collet holder match the axis of the lathe with a round stock of 50mm, or 100mm, or 200mm stick out? Does the central axis align with the tailstock? I think I would have mounted a precision ground shaft in the original 3-jaw chuck and then mounted the collet chuck to that shaft in the reverse orientation to clean up the back side, (spindle side) mating surface of the collet chuck, and then would have made a heavy, almost flywheel like adapter plate, with provisions to adjust the final runout number to zero(0), for the final spindle connection. What are your thoughts about my thoughts? .. Thanks for presenting this idea and video.
I would assume those collets to be made in China with at least 90% certainty. I don't mean that they would be bad but the markings and the box are 1:1 with some chinese stuff I have. I would get Fahrion or Rego-Fix if I want better quality, then aliexpress for the cheap stuff
Denn Aufnahme Durchmesser genauer gedreht ,dann spart man sich das Ausrichten! Ich würde auch für die größeren Maschine mal ein gutes Dreibackenfutter anschaffen !
Erst einmal toll gemacht! Das Problem mit dem Aufnahmespiel ist aber, dass du bei jeder Nutzung erst einmal alles zurecht hämmern musst. Natürlich kann man es im Nachgang nur noch schwer ändern, aber ich wäre auf die engste mögliche Toleranz gegangen und hätte die ER20 Aufnahme entsprechend geschliffen, so dass man, vorausgesetzt man baut es das nächste mal exakt genau so an, die engste mögliche Toleranz bekommt. Mich persönlich nervt nichts mehr, als Werkzeuge die man erst einmal aufwendig einrichten muss. Die benutze ich dann tendenziell eher selten bis gar nicht. Hat die Emco eigentlich keine Kegelaufnahme in der Spindel?
Might be a possible solution. The problem is the weird spindle nose. The mounting screws for the chucks have an extreme small bolt hole circle. Mounting a chuck with an adapter plate means, you first have to bolt the adapter plate to the spindle and afterwards you can mount the chuck to the adapter plate. Possible but in my eyes impractical.
Not a great fan of collet chucks of this description on lathes especially when a 3 jaw chuck in good condition will work better and with less messing about but mainly the range is far greater........I always mount a 3 jaw chuck to a backplate with a .1mm slackness on the backplate mounting spigot to allow tapping the body of the chuck true for exacting work when needed.....it makes any 3 jaw chuck a dead accurate one..
Forgive my ignorance but I'm curious why more people don't just use the taper in the spindle to hold for example a MT3 ER32 collet holder the same that would fit in a mill? I use the same collet holder in my mill as my lathe and just a length of M12 all thread as a draw bar and it seems to be super accurate. genuinely curious why this isn't how most people do it?
@@bmalovic I guess but if the part is small enough to use a collet 20mm at the biggest on a small lathe its never really that long. I've never ran into that issue but thats the only draw back I've seen so far.
@@ThyerHazard It obviously depend on what you usualu make. Lets say you have to make 10 identical 30mm long parts from 13mm round bronse stock. For ER20 to fully engage you need 30mm extra (not sure for ER32), just for workholding. Lets say full engagment is not necesary, but you will need at least 10mm for workholding (recomended 20 or 2/3 of collet lenght) and some 2-3mm for cut off. With collet chuck you just put 320+ mm bar make part, extend bar for next 33 mm, rinse and repeat. With MT3 you will need to cut bar stock to at least 3 parts and throw away at least 3 times 10mm of bar stock. In the long run.. not so cheap. Or even worse, according to Marphy's law, you will lack just 20mm of stock, in the sundy afternoon to finish the job :)
@@bmalovic yeah like I said I get it, Only time I needed a collet with a long part was when I was turning down the ends of my ballscrews for a cnc project. I mounted one of those square ER32 Blocks normally used in milling in my 4 jaw and dialed it in, but thats the only time I've needed it personally. Thanks for the reply :)
Coincidence.. two days ago I startied to think how to make collet chuck for my mini lathe :) Yes I know that it's availabel for cheap, but I ddi not find any ER20, only ER32, and I already have full set of ER20 collets. And of course.. where is the fun if you do not make it yourself :) 7:09 I beleve that transfer punch screws will be more then enough accurate for mounting screws holes. After all that holes have at least 0.2mm clearance, and they are not locating elements.
From what i can see just scrolling through the video, you didn`t add a set-true mechanism... I would highly advise you to do so... Use brass tipped screws to prevent marring the spindle nose, but other than that, you can set the damn thing to micron runouts, rather than 10x as much... It won`t be as rigid as a true bored surface with hydraulic fit would have been, but alas, given that this is a compromise tool, adding another compromise like that won`t hurt... Generally, i would go with a solid rod, machine a spindle fitting section, turn it around, clamp it, machine the rest in situ and that would provide you with a more rigid and a more accurate thing, but that nose really is quite the dummy design... I have Emco FB2 mini mill, and Emco does make some great machines, no doubt about that, but they also appear to have geniuses in the design department that are often found in automotive engineering ranks, where their genius allows them to design the most efficient, high performance solution - which is the worst thing in the world to deal with when it gets transferred from paper to metal... Sure, high performing and efficient, but a nightmare to work with or on... Speaking of nightmares, your mill head seems to be nodding or tilting somewhere, i can`t say when the cut happened, but those threads are eaten into, and only the lower two, which means that if the mill was doing the work in the same manner as you showed, with the part being fed from(mill`s perspective) left to right, then your mill head is also tilted a bit towards the right... Check the tram of the mill head... And i`m talking about it as if you yourself were the mill, with the part and the table being below your chin, so to speak... So it`s the opposite if you are thinking about it from the operator`s perspective... Check it out, you will find the error that i can see here, if it is prominent enough to be visible, it will be easy to indicate just by chucking a test indicator and feeding the quill downwards, with the needle being in contact with a 123block or whatever square reference you can plop on the table... Best regards! Steuss
Thanks for your feedback! On my last video someone said the exact opposite and asked for showing the endresult at the beginning of the video :D So this time I did and next time, we'll see ;)
@@WeCanDoThatBetter as a stoic once said, “kind words are not honest, honest words are not kind” if u t hurt then I guess you don’t like honesty. Have a think about what “better” means. Accuracy, repeatability, simplicity, or the kind TH-cam views and comments.
Надо было обрезок цанги зажать в токарном за зажатый полированный вал на 18-20 мм, и тогда только обтачивать под посадку, точность выше получилась бы и без молотка
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Good to see I'm not the only one using those sharp alu inserts on steel. The quality and capability of the machine is greatly improved by using them. I have even been able to carefully cut very hard steel with them.
I also use CCGT inserts on steel for light cuts. I find they work very well.
Last week I bought some CBN inserts - CCMT 060402 and used them in my late father's Myford Super 7B to rough turn some 15/64" high speed steel drill blanks, before finishing in a cutter grinder. I made very successful tapered D bits, or toolmakers reamers for making inject cones for a miniature boiler feed injector. Thanks are due to Stefan Gotteswinter for bringing hard turning to my attention in a TH-cam video. The Myford isn't really fast enough at 2150 rpm, but with tiny cuts it got the job done..
Glad you worked on this with actual usability being the goal. Things like the gentle chamfers to not hurt yourself or the material you're working on always pay off in the long run.
Thanks a lot for your kind feedback!
you've checked only for concentricity and now your collet taper axis is not perpendicular to the collet chuck base - that's why you get random readings on a dial indicator.
in your case the best way to do (or fix) this job is to take a known good quality collet and a piece of steel bar.
1. mount a bar into lathe chuck. support it with tailstock. cut it into 12mm rod (max diameter which ER20 collet can handle)
2. put 12mm collet into collet chuck and fit it onto your 12mm bar. then tighten the collet - voila. your collet is concentric an in-line with your lathe spindle.
3. bring tailstock back and cut (fix) all your features.
(precision of this method are determined by precision of a collet you are using. obviously)
was trying to figure out why the runout errors bothered me. thank you for stating it so plainly
If you look up the originators of ER collets (rego-fix) you can find the recommended torque for the nut, it is higher than you would imagine for proper tightness and concentricity.
Thanks for your comment and the hint about the recommended torque. I will look it up.
Great work. I am in the process of retrofitting a Boxford 160 cnc lathe which has the same spindle. I may steal some of your ideas when it comes to making work holding tooling! The project is on hold while I build a shed for my wife, hopefully I will be back at it soon!
Thank you very much for your comment! Happy to hear to give you some inspiration. Good luck for your projects. I have to look up your machine. Sounds very interesting.
Very well done! The modification worked out pretty well. Necessity is the mother of invention! :)
Thank you very much! It's true;)
You my friend my friend, make tools, that make the tools, that make the tool. Awesome video, as always.
Thank you very much! I really do appreciate your support!
Grat job and i am aways impressed that you manage such work on small machines
Once again another nice homemade tool. We shared this video on our homemade tool forum last week 😎
Very nice work sir. I have brought a collet chuck a while ago. I really need to start using it
I enjoyed the video and thanks for showing the process and problems. It may be that your collet precision was compromised by assuming the nose of the collet holder was machined to the same accuracy as the ground inner collet taper. Clamping to the OD of the nose and machining from that as a reference, likely created a bit of error. It may have been better to use a precision mandrel in a large ER collet, and machined everything using the collet-held mandrel as the reference. Also, I think you really want that tight press fit on the back plate for repeatability without having to repeatedly drag out an indicator when you swap chucks. We learn by doing! Thanks again.
That was impressive. Well done. Especially for a small lathe. That may be something that I can adapt to one of my Atlas/Craftsman small lathes. Thank you.
I can't wait to see that beast working
hehe :) I think you will in some of the next videos.
@@WeCanDoThatBetter alright now I can wait a bit :)
Awesome, many thanks for this video.
I didn't know that Proxxon PD 250/E has the same spindle nose as the CNC 5, useful tip that!
Many thanks for your comment! Yes, didn't know this either until a few months ago. It's good to know :)
Very nice project. Well done as always.
Thanks for your kind comment! I really do appreciate that!
As soon as I see your video, I always hit like!
Thank you so much my friend! I really do appreciate your support!
Very nice,I like the Ragotzky & Gätje ER20 collets
Oh yes, me too! Thanks for your feedback!
Straight away I recognised the 80mm chuck from a Emco Compact 5. I've had 2 of the non cnc lathes. I converted my second one to CNC. First with steppers including the spindle and currently with servos. Four axes. Spindle, carriage, cross slide and tailstock. My 80mm chuck died many years ago and I adapted a 100mm 3 jaw to it. Right now I am replacing the 400W spindle servo and controller that only gives me 1500rpm with a 1kW AC servo that will give me 3000rpm.
its vary cool. its nice to have a bolt on chuck with an er16. for mine i just took an extended er32 holder and cut off the flange and tapper the i just indicate that in in the 4 jaw. i felt it was much easier then bolting the 4 jaw and having to tap in something else to the spindle nose.
I just use a hex collet block in my three jaw. Good enough!
Thanks!
Fantastic work!
Thank you very much!
Nice work on the chuck!
I sure hope the collets prove more accurate than the box they came in ;)
Thank you very much! :D haha yes, I hope that too ;)
You could've used the key slot to keep the chuck in place during tightening, with an ER40 hook wrench (or some mm size that fits). These have to be pretty tight.
good job
Thanks!
thanks again. you needed that. good part.
Thanks! Yes this is really necessary on a lathe.
Great video man, keep'um coming.
Thank you! Consider subscribing to not miss future ones;)
@@WeCanDoThatBetter I am subscribed have been for a while..
At 18:40, at the current concentricity setpoint, does changing the collet to a different size collet give the same concentric results? Does the central axis of the collet holder match the axis of the lathe with a round stock of 50mm, or 100mm, or 200mm stick out? Does the central axis align with the tailstock? I think I would have mounted a precision ground shaft in the original 3-jaw chuck and then mounted the collet chuck to that shaft in the reverse orientation to clean up the back side, (spindle side) mating surface of the collet chuck, and then would have made a heavy, almost flywheel like adapter plate, with provisions to adjust the final runout number to zero(0), for the final spindle connection. What are your thoughts about my thoughts? .. Thanks for presenting this idea and video.
And another nice one!
Thanks my friend!
Hai il tornio come il mio per questo più l'interessante progetto ti meriti un iscritto in più. A presto.
Great work brother. I wonder how much it ended up saving you - if anything - not counting your time let's say...
nice work sir!!!
Thanks! Happy to hear, you like it!
@@WeCanDoThatBetter if there's ever anythign ya need from the states, let me know.
On the outer flange can drill 4 set screw for the runout fine adjustment.😊
That's actually a pretty good idea! I will consider this :)
Proxxon!❤
I would assume those collets to be made in China with at least 90% certainty. I don't mean that they would be bad but the markings and the box are 1:1 with some chinese stuff I have. I would get Fahrion or Rego-Fix if I want better quality, then aliexpress for the cheap stuff
Sounds like you want to reinvent it as a horizontal mill.?
Denn Aufnahme Durchmesser genauer gedreht ,dann spart man sich das Ausrichten!
Ich würde auch für die größeren Maschine mal ein gutes Dreibackenfutter anschaffen !
I wonder if drilling the clearance warped the inner surface of the chuck?
That's actually a good question. I think that is hard to measure with my equipment.
Erst einmal toll gemacht!
Das Problem mit dem Aufnahmespiel ist aber, dass du bei jeder Nutzung erst einmal alles zurecht hämmern musst. Natürlich kann man es im Nachgang nur noch schwer ändern, aber ich wäre auf die engste mögliche Toleranz gegangen und hätte die ER20 Aufnahme entsprechend geschliffen, so dass man, vorausgesetzt man baut es das nächste mal exakt genau so an, die engste mögliche Toleranz bekommt.
Mich persönlich nervt nichts mehr, als Werkzeuge die man erst einmal aufwendig einrichten muss. Die benutze ich dann tendenziell eher selten bis gar nicht.
Hat die Emco eigentlich keine Kegelaufnahme in der Spindel?
you can use a adapterplate... instead of .... destroy a chuck?
Might be a possible solution. The problem is the weird spindle nose. The mounting screws for the chucks have an extreme small bolt hole circle. Mounting a chuck with an adapter plate means, you first have to bolt the adapter plate to the spindle and afterwards you can mount the chuck to the adapter plate. Possible but in my eyes impractical.
Not a great fan of collet chucks of this description on lathes especially when a 3 jaw chuck in good condition will work better and with less messing about but mainly the range is far greater........I always mount a 3 jaw chuck to a backplate with a .1mm slackness on the backplate mounting spigot to allow tapping the body of the chuck true for exacting work when needed.....it makes any 3 jaw chuck a dead accurate one..
Forgive my ignorance but I'm curious why more people don't just use the taper in the spindle to hold for example a MT3 ER32 collet holder the same that would fit in a mill? I use the same collet holder in my mill as my lathe and just a length of M12 all thread as a draw bar and it seems to be super accurate. genuinely curious why this isn't how most people do it?
Cos then you can not pass the stock thru the spindle, and lenght of the stock is very limited.
@@bmalovic I guess but if the part is small enough to use a collet 20mm at the biggest on a small lathe its never really that long.
I've never ran into that issue but thats the only draw back I've seen so far.
@@ThyerHazard It obviously depend on what you usualu make.
Lets say you have to make 10 identical 30mm long parts from 13mm round bronse stock.
For ER20 to fully engage you need 30mm extra (not sure for ER32), just for workholding. Lets say full engagment is not necesary, but you will need at least 10mm for workholding (recomended 20 or 2/3 of collet lenght) and some 2-3mm for cut off.
With collet chuck you just put 320+ mm bar make part, extend bar for next 33 mm, rinse and repeat.
With MT3 you will need to cut bar stock to at least 3 parts and throw away at least 3 times 10mm of bar stock.
In the long run.. not so cheap.
Or even worse, according to Marphy's law, you will lack just 20mm of stock, in the sundy afternoon to finish the job :)
@@bmalovic yeah like I said I get it, Only time I needed a collet with a long part was when I was turning down the ends of my ballscrews for a cnc project.
I mounted one of those square ER32 Blocks normally used in milling in my 4 jaw and dialed it in, but thats the only time I've needed it personally.
Thanks for the reply :)
Klopfe beim nächsten mal leicht an die Mutter, so stelle ich den Rundlauf beim cnc Fräsen mit sehr dünnen Fräsern ein.
Hi, danke für den Tipp. Das muss ich mal ausprobieren.
Coincidence.. two days ago I startied to think how to make collet chuck for my mini lathe :)
Yes I know that it's availabel for cheap, but I ddi not find any ER20, only ER32, and I already have full set of ER20 collets.
And of course.. where is the fun if you do not make it yourself :)
7:09 I beleve that transfer punch screws will be more then enough accurate for mounting screws holes. After all that holes have at least 0.2mm clearance, and they are not locating elements.
From what i can see just scrolling through the video, you didn`t add a set-true mechanism... I would highly advise you to do so... Use brass tipped screws to prevent marring the spindle nose, but other than that, you can set the damn thing to micron runouts, rather than 10x as much... It won`t be as rigid as a true bored surface with hydraulic fit would have been, but alas, given that this is a compromise tool, adding another compromise like that won`t hurt...
Generally, i would go with a solid rod, machine a spindle fitting section, turn it around, clamp it, machine the rest in situ and that would provide you with a more rigid and a more accurate thing, but that nose really is quite the dummy design...
I have Emco FB2 mini mill, and Emco does make some great machines, no doubt about that, but they also appear to have geniuses in the design department that are often found in automotive engineering ranks, where their genius allows them to design the most efficient, high performance solution - which is the worst thing in the world to deal with when it gets transferred from paper to metal... Sure, high performing and efficient, but a nightmare to work with or on...
Speaking of nightmares, your mill head seems to be nodding or tilting somewhere, i can`t say when the cut happened, but those threads are eaten into, and only the lower two, which means that if the mill was doing the work in the same manner as you showed, with the part being fed from(mill`s perspective) left to right, then your mill head is also tilted a bit towards the right... Check the tram of the mill head... And i`m talking about it as if you yourself were the mill, with the part and the table being below your chin, so to speak... So it`s the opposite if you are thinking about it from the operator`s perspective... Check it out, you will find the error that i can see here, if it is prominent enough to be visible, it will be easy to indicate just by chucking a test indicator and feeding the quill downwards, with the needle being in contact with a 123block or whatever square reference you can plop on the table...
Best regards!
Steuss
Столько усилий и биение всё равно 0,05 мм😐 ты бы мог гораздо точнее выставить в обычном трёх кулачковом патроне
I think you shouldn't spoil the result at the begining of your videos.
Thanks for your feedback! On my last video someone said the exact opposite and asked for showing the endresult at the beginning of the video :D So this time I did and next time, we'll see ;)
Dude it's the thumbnail and it's why you clicked on the video 😂
No, show it! This is not a mystery thriller! 😂
@@WeCanDoThatBetterdefinitely keep it. If I don’t have time for the whole video, I want to see what you made without scrubbing through the video
keep it! duh!
Bitte das "R" nicht so übertrieben rollen, dass macht kein Brite so
Alles klar, ich versuch's... ;)
You should rename your channel to "We Can't Do That Better"
Uh that hurts. What did I do wrong in your opinion?
@@WeCanDoThatBetter read the comments. I’ve unsubscribed so I don’t have to watch you butcher quality engineered parts again.
@@WeCanDoThatBetter as a stoic once said, “kind words are not honest, honest words are not kind” if u t hurt then I guess you don’t like honesty. Have a think about what “better” means. Accuracy, repeatability, simplicity, or the kind TH-cam views and comments.
너의 목소리를 빼고 영상을 더 짧게 만드는게 더 나을것같아... 너의 목소리는 듣기가 그다지 좋지도 않고, 쓸데없는 말이 많아서 영상이 지루해
Не проще ли было сделать с самого начала все самому, с цельной болванки?
Надо было обрезок цанги зажать в токарном за зажатый полированный вал на 18-20 мм, и тогда только обтачивать под посадку, точность выше получилась бы и без молотка