My smallest milling machine has 1100Nm of torque. But I also do this for a living. Basically boils down to: Any milling machine is better than no milling machine. Just buy the best thing your wallet and space budget can fit.
Always remember to find - and work within - your limits in terms of feeds and speeds Treat every ‘affordable offbrand’ machine tool and tooling as if it was a ‘kit’ that constantly needs work done on it, upkeep and improvement Make sure your workbench is flat, square and workpiece secured before machining Do not machine things that are harder than the tooling you are using It’s okay to make mistakes (avoiding them is best, of course), as long as you have the needed Personal Protective Equipment on… and mmmmaybe spare parts on hand.
Totally agree. For several years I only had a mini lathe, then I was given a cheap mini mill, friend only ever used it to drill a few holes Didn't know I needed one until I had it. When control panel failed I ended up buying a mill drill as it was 'affordable' (wife still complained it was 'too expensive')
I bought a larger mill drill a few years ago. I considered buying a second/third/fortieth hand Bridgeport or King Rich, whatever, a turret mill. I didn't have tooling so that had to be considered as well. I went with the Rongfu machine for these reasons. Dovetail column, fairly rigid - more so than a Sieg, Decent table size for a domestic garage, DRO, suds, stand, taping mode, 2 HP. To that I added a rotary table, five inch vice, all the bits and pieces you need to get going and some bits that are just nice to have. All up about AU$8k. A second hand Bridgy would set me back around the $5k mark and need a considerable amount of work - new lead screws, nuts, surface grind, belt etc - another $3-4K without any tooling. I am a hobbyist just mucking around. The machine I bought does just about everything I want with a reasonable finish and good accuracy. I also have a Sieg x2.5 or something that I am converting to CNC. The Rongfu is by far the better machine.
Great video. Regarding the belt drive versus gear driven heads, it may be worth noting that a gear driven head has significantly more torque at low RPM settings, as the electric motor remains in the optimal RPM range for torque. The belt drive uses motor speed control across high and low belt settings to achieve low RPM. This means that, at low RPM, the belt drive is not getting great efficiency or torque. Furthermore, the control board for the speed control on the electric motor is very likely to fail. This is because they generate a lot of waste heat, especially at low RPM, and they tend to be made cheaply, with cheap components that do not handle heat well. This is more important for small mills and lathes than for larger machines, because how much torque you have determines maximum cutter size, or stock diameter on the lathe. My mini lathe does not have a gear driven head, and it makes me sad. When the control board eventually dies, I plan to attach a motorbike gearbox to the corpse of the thing, and make a DIY chinese frankenstein gear head mini lathe.
I had no machine yet from CHN that didn't need tweaking.. even the ones that come branded and are supposed to be custom made for the western importer. So as others have said before me - consider them a pre-assembled kit (for transport) that needs to be taken apart, cleaned, deburred, tweaked, maybe modified to get something that will do what u wanted it for. Also expect to pay what u paid for the machine itself in accessories/tools/etc. to be able to use it.
The tooling cost is a very real thing that I bet a lot of folks just getting started aren't fully prepared for. Definitely worth mentioning. And to be honest, I don't think I've ever had any machine that didn't need tweaking. Whether it's a new import, or old US iron, they all need some love before use. And really, the old iron can be a LOT of work, I mean a LOOOOOT lol. All things worth weighing in the final decision for sure.
A lot of us weigh the trade-offs between a run-out old piece of American iron and a new Asian machine of some kind. The budget is a factor for most of us so many times we lean toward that offshore equipment. While most of us would rather have an American-made machine tool it’s not always in the cards so videos like this one are helpful guides to the alternative. I think that your assessment regarding choice of distributor and the feature set are spot on.
Yeah that's exactly right, it's a give and take decision full of trade offs and compromises to find the tool that's going to work best for you. I was very blessed to inherit a space large enough fit in some big machines, and am in an area where old industrial machines are available and affordable. Before this shop, I was in a very small wooden shed. That's where my very first video was filmed actually. Everyone's situation and needs are different. And thank you very much. I'm legitimately glad to hear that you agree. I really wanted to provide the info that I kind of "knew that I was missing" in the beginning, and only was able to learn over time along the way. I often think that If I could go back and start out knowing what I know now, it would be so much easier lol.
Pure acid test for all mills. Trammed, then a cable is attached to the highest point of the mill head and the father forward stable part of it. A strain guage is attached to to cable and a steady force is applied, pulling the cable laterally towards the end of the bed. Then standard measurements of deflection on two axis can be measured in grams. Just this primitive measurement will give a good idea of how much deflection a cutting bit will apply to the mill which in turn gives you a bottom number of the accuracy you can expect. A heavier Bridgeport like in your shop can take 200-500 grams before significant measurable deflection. Mini mills - good luck getting up to one ounce.
All great points you made there. At the end of the day, any mill or lathe is better than no mill or lathe. I haven't got the room or money for a Bridgeport etc but I wouldn't be without my hobby sized machines now. I've done so much with them over the years.
I paid at least as much for my import machine as I would have spent on a decent used Bridgeport style machine but I simply don’t have the room. I’ve heard all of the arguments about a Bridgeport not taking up much more floor space than a bench-top but that doesn’t mean that I’d be able to wrangle a one ton+ machine down into my basement. Also, finding a decent used knee mill isn’t as easy as it used to be.
@@robertpearson8798 Yeah, even in my garage/workshop, trying to move a 1 ton machine would be a nightmare. My mill is around 200kgs and that's bad enough, I moved recently, don't want to move that again.
@@robertpearson8798 Yeah, that's my situation too Robert... The PM-728VT, fully optioned out with all the delivery options, is about what a used Bridgeport in what I call "serviceable condition" would be in my neck of the woods. I don't have space for it though. Moving would be a challenge, even if the 97yr old floor in my garage could support the weight of it. So benchtop machines are the way to go... Maybe someday if our next/forever home has a 3-car garage.
I had 2 of these, both were bad from the factory. Dovetails were off a mile in both. Everytime you unclamped the head it would tilt almost 0.020-0.050. Then when you retighed the clamps it never came back to zero. If you tightened up the gib didnt make any difference. After year and a half of messing around i returned the second 1 and bought a Jet JMD18 and havent looked back. Much much better than the dovetail mills. Finding a Bridgeport in my parts that are worth a hoot is like finding hens teeth. My lathe is a Rockwell 11x36 flame hardened bed. Geat score at the time and has been serving me well.
Wow, that's crazy, my experience with Precision Matthews has been the exact opposite of yours. I've had one of their lathes, and one of their mills, and they both arrived beautiful out of the crate. Glad you got it sorted either way.
I've found that the Chinese PM machines are no different than all the other Chinese machine tools from other brands. You get marginally better paint and different features, and better after-sales service. Other than that, they're all the same, same castings, same machining/grinding on the dovetails. PM does not claim that they get "the best castings" because they know they'd need to back up those claims. I spent an afternoon trying to put a friends square column PM mill into tram. It had some problems with the head tilting forward, and an unfixable problem with the saddle dovetails being out of square. You need to check everything with a granite square and dti. His was purchased 2nd hand, so there was no option to return it.. I've also come to believe that the RF30/RF31 is generally a better bench mill than the RF45 dovetail machines, and the inexpensive 6x26 knee mill is even better.
@jakeperry8773 No, I had 2 that were the same way. I also talked to a few others that had the same issue just not as bad as mine. Maybe the ones from Tiawain are better, mine was from China. Regardless these type machine all have there compromises, dovetail and round column. I just had alot better luck with my Jet, could be because it can from Tiawain or maybe I got lucky this time. Anyway I would not trade my round column for a dovetail, I'm sure there are others that disagree and I'm fine with that.
Have a Taiwanese round column mill/drill for more than 20 years. Back then there was no square column ones. Main drawbacks is the round column and belt changing of speed. On a round column you can't move head up or down without loosing precision. So you have to set height for the longest tool to use before. And have quill down much for the shortest tool. Speed changes takes lots of time, so rarely done. A gearbox may be noisy but you gets lots of torque on low speeds. Fitted it with quill and X/Y DRO and VFD speed control. If I ever should buy a new mill, it would be a geared square column one with 3 or 4 axis DRO. Finding a used knee mill in decent condition is almost impossible.
Had a lowly 25mv for about 5 years, and in that time the pos paid for itself several times and allowed me to buy a better machine. It's also a great to make all kinds of mistakes that would hurt a lot more on expensive equipment. Just be prepared for a lengthy setup and a lot of grief, since even a little bump with throw it out of alignment in it's stock form. Everything is fixable tho, just don't go crazy on the upgrades. They get quite pricey very fast. Still use mine as a dedicated precision notching machine, so yeah ultimately I think it's a good buy.
I recently added a DRO to my mini mill and could never go back. It’s such a convenience. If I bought another or upgraded, it would have to include a DRO.
Great video. Very helpful for someone like me trying to figure out what to look for when purchasing one of these. It is a large investment and difficult to find really good advice like this. Thanks.
@@GuitarDad5150 thank you, I’m really glad to hear that. I tried to cover stuff that I wish I’d known when I first started out. And thanks for watching!
with my Warco minimill..it was a re badged Weiss mill...but Warco promised every machine was checked and came with their engineering report....it didnt...no report, head had wrong size bolt holes, looked used (evidenced by mangled battery cover for hight DRO) so....save money and get one from China directly. thats my personal experience.
That's awful, I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Was it covered by warranty and support? But I disagree whole heartedly. I spent a lot of time researching before I bought my first machines and settled on PM because of what I'd read and heard about them. I wasn't disappointed, and it turned out to be a great decision. Their support and warranty is fantastic. I actually broke my lathe a couple months after I got it, completely my fault. They sent the replacement parts free of charge, even though it was my fault, because they said it was a common beginner mistake. They then walked me through the entire repair process. Just excellent customer service and support.
This reminds me of the debates about whether Apple products are worth the extra cost. Almost all of them ignore Apple's 24/7 phone customer phone support by an intelligible local representative, or the ability to bring the product to a local Apple Store for help. Practically none of them consider the resale value. After a year or so of owning an Apple product, you can easily recover 50% or more of what you paid for it on the second hand market.
@@hersch_tool Precision Mathews are rebadged Chinese machines with a different paint job. But that's where the similarities end. They are considerably higher quality in terms of fit and finish, rigidity, and accuracy. Consequently, they cost more than what you would find online.
Very measured and sensible analysis, mate. All the more credible, as you don't seem to be short of 'proper' machine tools in your shop. All in all, a really good explanation of what's what (also the style of presentation was very easy to watch too); New subscriber incoming. 😉 The only thing I'd take very slight issue with, is the advice to definitely avoid round column mills. I'll grant that new, they're of questionable value, compared with the larger benchtop mills that are available from quality importers like Precision Matthews. However, used, well cared for Taiwanese RF/RF clones, manufactured say, in the 90s, can be a very inexpensive way of getting quite a fair bit of rigidity and capability in a benchtop mill. The main issue of losing X/Y position when changing Z height can be fairly easily worked around. That Lazy Machinist has a good video on the "longest tool technique" to avoid having to change Z height. There are also a fair few videos around, that show modifications that pretty much remove the issue. Okay, if someone has the money to buy a PM column mill then it's hard to argue with that choice (Precision Matthews is an importer that those of us in the UK would give our right arm to be able to use!😄) If on the other hand, someone's budget is more limited (and couldn't fit a used knee mill in their shop), I'd reckon a decent used Taiwanese RF30/31 type is probably a better bet than one of the cheaper, smaller benchtop mills bought new. Eh, just my thinking though, and that's worth about as much as you think it is. 😁
@@stevedavey1343 thanks very much, I appreciate the positive feedback! And yeah, I agree completely, any mill is better than no mill and there are a lot of options and considerations when looking into bench mills. I’m just trying to give a broad overview here and hopefully arm folks with some good questions to ask and serve as a starting point for further research to assist with making the best choice for the individual. Also I think that some of the nicer round column mills are precision keyed which eliminates the tramming loss issue altogether. Thanks for watching btw, and thanks for the sub!
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Dunno why i watched this video. I have my mini mill, basically same model, just NOVA brand, love it, only motor direction control is with extra step, cant just toggle that switch - everytime, after direction change, need to push ON button, because circuit is very basic. I love metal tools, lovely content.
That was a good, clear and concise overview. I wish I had seen this 16 years ago! I've got a much older and crappier version of the PM25 (not a PM, but a UK importer). I don't think mine is the worst, but also certainly not the best. If I had my time again I would have stretched to the PM30 (although I don't think it was available at the time). The head rotation section is a weak point, there's only 2 bolts on mine, a centre pivot and one clamp bolt. I'll have to see if I can improve that bit. Mine is also a geared mill, and it is noisy. I have to knock the sound down by 12dB or so on my videos whenever it is running, as it's really quite loud.
Thanks very much. And yeah, those are exactly the things that we just don't know to look for until we have some time and experience, so that's the video I was aiming to make. I honestly got lucky with my choice for a first mill, and only learned to really appreciate just how good the machine actually was, and WHY, after some time with it.
If ur's is like the Optimum BF16v I got to replace my press-drill with u can drill two extra holes and mount it like he's shown. I did it on the BF16. The center bolt is now removed and the colum-lead-screw-nut mount point moved into its place (gave me ~3' / 75mm vertical EXTRA space). PS: I found that tightening those two NEW bolts down now clamps the head to the column as it seems to deform the heads 'saddle' - so it's a bit more involved to get this to work properly!
I have been really on the fence about getting one of those Chinese machines and you have answered a lot of my questions thanks. I can find a Bridgeport for about the same price but Im not very knowledgeable about what to look for so I dont know if the one I would find is any good so the new PM might be best and I do mostly smaller stuff anyway.
i really appreciated that you were fair & balanced re: taiwanese/chinese machines. i've seen a lot of videos where people immediately get absurdly racist, so it was a nice change.
Thanks very much. I am just trying to share what very little knowledge I've gained through my personal experiences. I appreciate that, and thank you for watching.
i got the 727m, with gears. . i full full power on low rpm. i can do 2" facemill cuts in all material. ti, steel, aluminum 2" facemill cuts in all material. ti, steel, aluminum
Yeah, the 727m is a proper gear head. Different from the simple gear drive referred to in this vid. Really nice machine. In general though, I think a lot of folks underestimate what some of the little mills are capable of. Thanks for watching btw.
High School robotics team I mentor has a Grizzly mini mill with plastic tooth gears. I assume the plastic gears are for the noise I’m sure. Gears finally broke after many years of use. Online reseller makes replacement metal gears that fit perfectly. They were noisy at first, but finally wore in and became better.
I have an Optimum MH-28V, which looks very similar, casting wise. The Z height seems decent to me, hasn't bothered me too often, it's way more often the Y travel that trips me up, and makes me want a turret style mill. Mines geared, but the noise isn't that bad. Low gear, high motor speed is a bit noisy (still quieter than the lathe), but if I'm needing that much spindle speed, a lot of the time I can just go to high gear. If I do need to stay in low gear with that much rpm, then the cutting is probably making more noise than the gears. I do wish it had a bit more torque though. Sometimes, with the variable speed it will start over reving a bit to make up for lack of torque, even in low gear if using an annular cutter or something.
@@patrickbeck4062 yeah torque/cutting power is definitely a place where they can struggle. Big drills and annular cutters are good examples of times where you might have to “work it” a bit… lol
Thanks very much. And yeah, a lot of people are in that same situation. That was my situation until I got blessed with the shop space that I have now. And some people also just don't even want to deal with the big machines, honestly they are a real PITA lol.
as Positive critique, you should add a DISCLAIMER of some sort. Not only would it increase the value of your videos content, it speaks to the credibility of this platform.
A good guide to the pros and cons of benchtop/mini mills. The only point where I disagree with you is the suggestion that someone purchasing a new machine might want to choose a Morse taper quill. Morse taper quills are a far less preferable option than a R8 quill. My advice is to ignore the fact that you may already own a selection of MT2 or MT3 tooling and purchase a machine with an R8 quill.
Thanks very much. And yeah, I definitely understand the point you're making and generally agree with your logic. I think it's a choice that should be considered carefully either way. And the R8 taper is unarguably the better taper for a mill spindle.
I came looking for this comment. I'm not a machinist, but what I've heard from the people who are is that even if they can share tools between their lathes and mills, they still end up never doing it, making the trade offs not worth it.
@@M_Northstar It really depends, I share tooling between my machines all the time. But the point being made is that R8 is a better taper for a mill spindle, which is definitely true. But even R8 isn't perfect, NMTB 40 is even better than R8, etc, etc. That being said, for some of the machines on the smaller end of the spectrum R8 might not even be an option. And if someone is really working with small machines in a small space it might be a decision they find worth considering.
They are less rigid. Round column mills are essentially just beefed up drill presses. They are better than a drill press but you will be taking light cuts.
Don’t EVER pick a mt2 spindle over r8. Morse tapers are mostly for drilling. Bridgeports are the most common knee mill and they run an r8 spindle nose. Tooling is very easy to find
I've had my PM30 about a year and a half, and I love it! I've had no issues with mine. I make custom knives, and this mill is so handy drilling precision holes for handle pins or screws, guards. As with most machines a lot of the expense is the tooling, more tooling makes it more versatile.
I have a vevor mini lathe with metal (not plastic) drive gears. But as an avid 2 wheel enthusiasts, I have concerns about your review of the differences in the mill. Color means nothing. Aftermarket plastics for motorcycles are priced from $200 - $800 (like auctmart) and others. I had issues where the plastics literally exploded after installing. I did some major digging to find out who makes the best aftermarket set, and their price differences compared to quality. Turns out every single aftermarket manufacturer (or re-saler) has their product made from the exact same machine, in the same production line, using the exact same material. They just have different stickers placed on them. Coming from China, I'm going to go out on a limb and say every single machine is exactly the same, but the (re-saler) manufacturer has them painted for their associated theme. I'm looking into hobby mills, but after getting my vevor, and then finding out that a product that is (I believe) made in Australia with power fed everything (table, cross-slide, etc....) could be had for about about twice what i paid for more than the junk I bought, I was mad. Channel "cool ideas DIY" has a similar style machine I'm talking about. I won't be getting a Chinese mill. I don't care about any reviews, I know China is just junk with a pretty bow. It has been over a year since I last looked, so I forgot the brand, iirc "artisan makes" has that lathe of interest as well.
Brand has nothing to do with the paint job. Ive had import/chinese machines and tools from different importers/manufacturers in the shop and have actually used them. They are certainly not the same machine with a different paint job. That said, yes many of them absolutely are the same which is why I stressed the importance of buying from a well known and REPUTABLE brand that is domestically owned and operated, like PM in the US for example. Do your research. Artisan's machines are both Chinese made iirc?
Excellent analysis!!! Great shop too BTW... You've got a nice Bridgeport and horizontal mill. For home shop guys, a Bridgeport is the ultimate mill to have. I'd love to have one, but I don't have the space, the time or the money to rehab one of the tapped out machines that I'd be able to afford. Precision Matthews are great machines by most accounts. Looking to buy a PM-728VT in the next year or so, and a matching lathe not soon after that. Luckily for me, a bench mill is more than big enough for my needs, as is a small 10-30ish lathe...
Thank you! And yeah I have been EXTREMELY lucky and blessed with my shop and machines. My first machines were both PM machines, and I've loved them. Through restoring and selling machines I've been able to build out a shop that far exceeds anything I'd ever imagined. The big machines have their downsides too though, the main being handling them. My wife and I want to get a homestead someday, and the thought of moving my shop has become terrifying at this point lol.
@@hersch_tool Yeah, I get the moving issue completely! It's the primary reason why I've not ordered the PM-728VT and a lathe. We're going to be moving from CT to PA in a year or so and I don't want to have to move the machines twice. As it is, if I did buy them now, I'd have to disassemble the mill to be able to move it down to my basement workshop. Not sure if I'd be able to do the same with a lathe. Don't want to do it over again, to move it up out of the workshop! But bigger machines would be great... If money and space were no object, I'd be buying a reconditioned, better than new Bridgeport and Hardinge lathe, but that's not going to happen. All the best to you!
@@WHJeffB Yep, you get it exactly lol. Also, congrats on moving out of CA? I was based in SF for several years, it's where I met my wife. I grabbed her and my dog, and escaped in 2020 and haven't looked back.
@@stevedavey1343 Maaaaaaan, I would fight an entire clan of ninjas with laser swords for a Deckel FP1 with attachments. Unfortunately, they just don't exist in the states. At lease not in any realistic sense for a home shopper.
For milling, MT tooling is only viable in conjunction with a draw bar. Lathe tail stocks don‘t have draw bars and the tools you might have laying around for your lathe are likely not to have the threaded hole at the end of their taper to accept a draw bar. Keep this in mind before deciding to buy a mill with MT taper thinking that you will share the lathe tools. Also, an MT2 taper is really flimsy for milling, compared to R8.
Lol, it's a complete wreck, I miss my 15" leblond honestly. I'm currently working on it when I have time. but I've never seen a machine in worse condition, it was not well maintained... I hope to get it running at some point, but we'll see I guess lol.
Big question. Personally, id say a set of r8 collets from 1/16" to 3/4", a 3/4" & 1" end mill holder, an r8 drill chuck, and some size of arbor for slitting saws, form cutters, etc. For the arbor, just search for the types of cutters you expect to use in the future and find a common arbor size that covers a wide range of options, then buy an arbor of that size. That little pile of tooling will go a long way.
There is one simple rule of thumb: as big as you can fit for as much money you can spend. And a "slightly" used good machine is at least twice as good as a Chinese-machine. We bought a Shizuoka-mill from Japan, a real Ferrari, for the price of a smallish Chinese...
I guess there is a fine line to be walked on the precision of a machine. Do you need something that can work at micron level of repeatability in every project you do? Or can you outsource that one part per year that needs to be super precise to a workshop that has a precision CNC, and you can live with higher tolerance amd dimensional errors on your everyday work. I guess if you look at power requirements, there are similar considerations to be made. Do you need to quickly remove a lot of material in one pass, because you have limited time and too much work to do? Or can you do a few cuts with a smaller tool that take a lot longer, to get the same amount of material removed?
yep! the materials used in the cast iron, the quality of the casting and the final machining to spec. a named brand has higher tollerances and requirements than say "joe Hong" who took a cart in to a factory, grabbed a bunch of parts from a scrap, painte3d and assembled and sold it online. (about 80% of the time the no namaed brands are made up of scrap parts that did NOT cut the mustard for the named brands. now, if you buy parts 1 at a time you get top quality just like the named brand, as in my case. my origional cross slide was destroyed and so far out of wack it was not salvageable. i got a new one and BAM! dead nuts perfect! at a cost of $109 shipped but that was worth the $ compaired to the headache i was getting before.
I have one of those, and plan on modifying it with tensioned stabilizer bars, either solid slotted with bolts, or with turnbuckles. It works well enough for what I do with it, though it does not have the original milling table base top, so had to make do with a makeshift one out of large C channel and an import xy mill table. Needs a lot of work for actual precision, but it does what I need it to do for now.
Very good video over all. A couple things I would add/disagree with. First of all it is normally not the casting that gets rejected, those are normally pass/fail. It is the finished part that is culled and resold. I had a 16” Grizzly lathe that was so bad even the dowel pins were misdrilled factory seconds! Secondly I wouldn’t knock the old round column machines tho they are harder to use they have produced billions of good parts for probably 60-70 years. I wouldn’t consider the machine you were showing a mini mill tho. Size wise match your mill to your work. I have found mills run out of capacity much faster than a lathe. Don’t knock a half size knee mill. While is is always good to get the stoutest machine available accuracy is much more important, non of these machines are going to take heavy cuts so unless your goal is to just reduce metal to chips just for the hell of it make sure you buy a quality machine. Cost of tooling is pretty much the same no matter what size of machine you buy(vises are the exception). Don’t buy too much machine moving big machines is expensive and dangerous.
Hello Thanks for sharing your videos with us. Ihave a question : Ilive in Austria and why the prouduct that comes from China to the Germany and Austria the quality is very very good?and also why all the mark and also the writing on the machine is German although is from china? Also the company is German company but I’m sure coms from china. I’m waiting for your response or if someone knows why? Thanks Best regards sina ❤
I have an Optimum brand mill and to the best of my knowledge they are built in China in a factory managed by Germans,so quality is higher.... it's just a lot more cost effective to build them in Chinese factories.
Thanks so much for watching. And as commented above, importers will have a management presence in the Chinese factories. It works the same for US importers, and most other well known machine tool importers in other locations. It would be great to see this kind of production move back to their respective home countries, I would love to see manufacturing come back to the states, but unfortunately that's not how things work at the moment.
i hate mine, i love mine... i guess mines the bigger sister. HM45...46? it works, but i spent a bit of time learning its idiosyncrasies? being left semi exposed for a few years wasnt the best thing for the bearings... box got water in it. so stripped it down and thats when i found the major issue, that one of the gear shafts has a nasty big crack in it along one of the keyways. from the factory judging by the grinding marks... bit hard to select one speed and i know that one day its going to have to be stripped down and remade... at the same time, see if i can beef it up a bit as well. in this country we have a monopoly of one seller/importer and theyre not interested in after sales support... not even really interested in pre-sales support, lol. a reputation for "customer service" but what can you do given no alternative but bend over and take it? the big challenge will be when i finally get motivated to start scraping it... gotta love the "decorative" factory scraping... it still has the cutter marks on some of the ways! not hard as such, just tedious and some parts weigh a bit. i still cry about letting a bridgeport go years ago as i didnt have the shed for it (remember that bit about "semi exposed"?)
ey yo! shut your ass up! that was a lovely video and a lovely lathe! I won`t hear anything to the contrary! Tho, i`ll commend you for the pun! Cheers mate, Best regards!
Had trouble deciding on Mill. Gave up on comments/opinions. Got onto 'Artisan makes', listened as he went through about his choice of Mill, what he did to it, etc. Got the same make, size. As a old 'newbie', gunna do what I want/ can, and enjoy the trip.. Seig SX2.7L
Well, a Bridgeport isn’t quite that heavy. It’s 1,995 pounds. Still pretty heavy though. Most of these companies don’t buy castings. They buy entire machines. What does happen is that the actual manufacturers, most of whom people have never heard of, off the same basic machine. With different features. But often, they also offer them in different quality, or precision characteristics. Importers, and that what Precision Mattews, Grizzly and others around the world are, decide what they want their products to cost, and then decide on what reputation they want to have (if they care at all!). Then they buy the machine that meets those expectations, gets them painted their color, with their logo tag. It’s preferable to try to avoid a machine with a DC motor. Yes, you do get variable drive, but the torque with DC motors can be low. A three phase motor with a VFD, as some machines have, is much better. They run on single phase, often 240, but some run on 120. VFDs have torque control, so they maintain high torque at low speed, just as geared and belt drives do. I generally don’t recommend geared head mills. Because these are low cost machines, the head has just a few speed choices. Often, just six. The top speed is also usually under 2,000 rpm. That’s too low for small mill bits. If you’re using a four flute bit in high speed, you should be at least 2,500 rpm, preferably higher. If it’s carbide, you should be at least 3,000. Smaller bits need higher speeds. You can mill at lower rpm, but your rate will be very slow, and the depth of cut will be small. The lower the speed, the easier to break a bit, because let’s face it, people who are new to this aren’t going to check the tables to find the optimum speed and feed, and will overdo them. I’ve seen people on TH-cam breaking bits constantly because of this.
Really great points and info, thanks for taking the time to comment. When I first started out I broke my fair share of end mills, (still do lol) for exactly the reason you stated. I think for beginners it can be intimidating running at the speeds that will in actuality produce the best results so we tend to be detrimentally conservative. Also yeah, the bridgeport is easy to move, the B&S and the Clausing lathe on the other hand?… a little sketchy for a guy with a pallet jack lol
The real decision is crank handle vs. CNC. Manual mill-drills, mini-mills, and yes that venerable hulking Bridgeport, are yesterday’s tech. Before you commit a bunch of money to one of these boat anchors, look at what’s available in the land of hobby CNC.
I don't think that's accurate for a majority of people looking at manual machines. Many of us in this hobby are looking for something out of manual machines that we simply can't get from CNC. When I was looking for my first machines, I was fully aware of CNC, but CNC machines weren't even a consideration. That's not what I wanted, and I believe that's true for a lot of folks.
@@jryer1 yeah but there are other things to consider for a lot of folks I think, like size for instance. when I got my first mill, the PM in this vid actually, I was in a small shed with a wooden floor that couldn’t support a machine the size of a BP. Also the bench mills are small and easy to use, run on single phase “plug and play”, etc. that stuff is attractive for a lot of newbies as well.
I have access to mill and lathe at work, but I don't want to break them learning. and I would like to be able to work on things at home. Most of my projects are not in need of more than +-.005" accuracy, and are small hobby stuff, experiments, prototypes, simple things for myself, not a business. I need something good enough to learn on that I can move around if needed (even if I have to use a cherry picker or disassemble it into chunks to move it). It's about learning, good enough, and not being worried about breaking someone else's equipment.
Great video, I just have a question. Might a geared spindle even though noisier, have more torque? I really have no idea, just curious. Edit: I've been looking at slightly larger PM machines is the reason I ask.
No, there are no real torque benefits to the geared heads but they are immensely more noisy than the polyvee belt drive head like Hersch has here.....given a choice I would always opt for the belt driven head rather than gears.
Exactly what @howardosborne8647 said. Of course, a real "gear head" mill with a proper gear train that's been specifically designed to generate mechanical advantage is a different story. IE; the back gear in a bridgeport for example. But that's different from what we're talking about here.
I spent a long time looking at bench top mills and the things that ultimately made the difference for me was the length and what was covered by the warranty, as well as what people who were using the machines were saying in various forums. I find it interesting how much hatred some folks have for Chinese made equipment. There are several TH-cam contributors, who repair industrial equipment, who speak well of their Chinese machinery.
Yeah I agree, warranty and customer service goes a long way, especially in the early days of learning the basics. Some folks do really seem to have a deep hatred of the Chinese tools and machines. I have both, old industrial and import, and I use both. There are pros and cons to each. My PM bench mill is probably the most accurate mill that I have.
Thank you...a good overview! 👍i recently bought a 35 Years old EMCO Lathe...a chineses knock off was cheaper, it would have much more features, even DRO and so on. But....this old EMCO was fabricatet to very high specs in Austria...and it is a dream. I am no fan of these 700bucks Chinese Tools (Lathe or Mill)...taiwanese maybe, they know, what they are doing.
EMCO machines are beautiful. And yeah, Austrian machines are in a whole different category from Chinese imports, that's for sure. Good to see you in the comments btw, thanks for stopping by!
Thank you for a very useful video. I learned doing the hard way. Now i find i need a smaller mill. Cramped for space and what type of work i do have been thinking about the pm 30 . Thanks again!
The only thing I differ from Hersch on is the choice of spindle fitting...If you're buying a new machine choose the R8 spindle as it is a far superior tool locating system than any of the Morse tapers could ever be.
Hard to say bad things about the PM mini-mills. I wish they were much cheaper but I say that about everything that I want but cannot afford. For small machining they seem like a lot of fun and capable for small parts. Not going to machine an engine block or head but great for making small parts and models.
I agree : stay away from round column mills. They are cheap, but when you have to change between longer an shorter tools (long drill to chamfer drill) you will lose your zero reference EVERY time, and that gets very old very fast!
@@hersch_tool Mine is an RF30 and has an MT3. I am in the process of swapping to a machine with square column. If I ever get to mounting the DRO on that … 🙄
@@hersch_tool I've heard round column mills also referred to as "coordinate drilling machines"... Meaning, they're more ideal for drilling hole patterns in a part to a fairly tight positional tolerance. Rather than an acceptable milling machine.
They are all bad. Push off is around .015 to .020 thousands. Any good CNC or Bridgestone Mill will only push off .002 max. To lower push off add weight to the machines base such as laying it into cement to dry to create rigidity.
LOL. I wouldn't have a shop, or a channel if it wasn't for my wife. She believes in me when I don't believe in myself, and makes me feel like I can do anything. When I first started talking crazy about spending a bunch of money on machines I didn't know anything about, she's the one who said, "do it, you'll be good at it, and it will make you happy." She was right, at least about the second part ;)
As someone whose machines speak German and hum the ``Horst-Wessel lied`` when we are alone, I can`t say much about modern machines, but what i can see is that a lot of modern machines, especially the import variety - has a compounding issue of material lack, a problem that has exponential growth with each step-down in machine size... That column on your mini-mill is utter shit... I have seen those mills, even the smaller variety, and that is just unacceptable in my eyes... The rest of the castings are quite decent, even a bit of an overkill in some regards, but that column is way too flimsy and not just that, but it`s hollow as well?!(knew that, just always boggles the mind) I mean, the x axis table is almost more sturdy than the head carrier axis, how can that be? The head, or the spindle is the most important aspect in a way, and if the machine allows that axis to wobble and flex in any way, you are bound to have issues, from precision to tool wear issues, but they will be your constant companions, lest you machine plastics, but that is a torture of it`s own kind, and as such is outside the scope of this comment... I`m considering mounting my mini-lathe on a large mill table, you know, as a method to make `er more skookum, and all that i can think about is how damn bad i want to have a lower for that table, as i don`t want to rest it on the dovetails, nor do i want to make 2 clamps that allow me a 3 point contact setting up of the table, or rather the lathe, as that will allow the cast iron to ``sag`` in the middle - being unsupported... And they dare sell you a machine with a main axis casting that i would not trust to injure someone if it fell on them, what kind of compromise is that? Get outta here, and bring me some gabagool on your way back... 20 years in the can... I ate grilled cheese off the radiators which had thicker casting sections than that column... I wanted to fuck a woman, but i compromised - I jacked off in a tissue instead, and the tissue was more rigid than the head swivel joint when fully clamped... How`s that for a compromise? And don`t you ``uncle Philly me``, like that animal Blundetto... 20 years and not a single peep... And i return to this? No more Butchie, no more! Best regards and kind wishes! Steuss
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:14-21
My smallest milling machine has 1100Nm of torque. But I also do this for a living. Basically boils down to: Any milling machine is better than no milling machine. Just buy the best thing your wallet and space budget can fit.
Amen to that. 👍
Always remember to find - and work within - your limits in terms of feeds and speeds
Treat every ‘affordable offbrand’ machine tool and tooling as if it was a ‘kit’ that constantly needs work done on it, upkeep and improvement
Make sure your workbench is flat, square and workpiece secured before machining
Do not machine things that are harder than the tooling you are using
It’s okay to make mistakes (avoiding them is best, of course), as long as you have the needed Personal Protective Equipment on… and mmmmaybe spare parts on hand.
Totally agree.
For several years I only had a mini lathe, then I was given a cheap mini mill, friend only ever used it to drill a few holes
Didn't know I needed one until I had it.
When control panel failed I ended up buying a mill drill as it was 'affordable' (wife still complained it was 'too expensive')
I bought a larger mill drill a few years ago. I considered buying a second/third/fortieth hand Bridgeport or King Rich, whatever, a turret mill. I didn't have tooling so that had to be considered as well. I went with the Rongfu machine for these reasons. Dovetail column, fairly rigid - more so than a Sieg, Decent table size for a domestic garage, DRO, suds, stand, taping mode, 2 HP. To that I added a rotary table, five inch vice, all the bits and pieces you need to get going and some bits that are just nice to have. All up about AU$8k. A second hand Bridgy would set me back around the $5k mark and need a considerable amount of work - new lead screws, nuts, surface grind, belt etc - another $3-4K without any tooling. I am a hobbyist just mucking around. The machine I bought does just about everything I want with a reasonable finish and good accuracy. I also have a Sieg x2.5 or something that I am converting to CNC. The Rongfu is by far the better machine.
Only bad thing I've found on Rong Fu was name !
Great video.
Regarding the belt drive versus gear driven heads, it may be worth noting that a gear driven head has significantly more torque at low RPM settings, as the electric motor remains in the optimal RPM range for torque. The belt drive uses motor speed control across high and low belt settings to achieve low RPM. This means that, at low RPM, the belt drive is not getting great efficiency or torque.
Furthermore, the control board for the speed control on the electric motor is very likely to fail. This is because they generate a lot of waste heat, especially at low RPM, and they tend to be made cheaply, with cheap components that do not handle heat well.
This is more important for small mills and lathes than for larger machines, because how much torque you have determines maximum cutter size, or stock diameter on the lathe.
My mini lathe does not have a gear driven head, and it makes me sad. When the control board eventually dies, I plan to attach a motorbike gearbox to the corpse of the thing, and make a DIY chinese frankenstein gear head mini lathe.
I had no machine yet from CHN that didn't need tweaking.. even the ones that come branded and are supposed to be custom made for the western importer. So as others have said before me - consider them a pre-assembled kit (for transport) that needs to be taken apart, cleaned, deburred, tweaked, maybe modified to get something that will do what u wanted it for. Also expect to pay what u paid for the machine itself in accessories/tools/etc. to be able to use it.
The tooling cost is a very real thing that I bet a lot of folks just getting started aren't fully prepared for. Definitely worth mentioning. And to be honest, I don't think I've ever had any machine that didn't need tweaking. Whether it's a new import, or old US iron, they all need some love before use. And really, the old iron can be a LOT of work, I mean a LOOOOOT lol. All things worth weighing in the final decision for sure.
A lot of us weigh the trade-offs between a run-out old piece of American iron and a new Asian machine of some kind. The budget is a factor for most of us so many times we lean toward that offshore equipment. While most of us would rather have an American-made machine tool it’s not always in the cards so videos like this one are helpful guides to the alternative. I think that your assessment regarding choice of distributor and the feature set are spot on.
Yeah that's exactly right, it's a give and take decision full of trade offs and compromises to find the tool that's going to work best for you. I was very blessed to inherit a space large enough fit in some big machines, and am in an area where old industrial machines are available and affordable. Before this shop, I was in a very small wooden shed. That's where my very first video was filmed actually. Everyone's situation and needs are different. And thank you very much. I'm legitimately glad to hear that you agree. I really wanted to provide the info that I kind of "knew that I was missing" in the beginning, and only was able to learn over time along the way. I often think that If I could go back and start out knowing what I know now, it would be so much easier lol.
Pure acid test for all mills. Trammed, then a cable is attached to the highest point of the mill head and the father forward stable part of it. A strain guage is attached to to cable and a steady force is applied, pulling the cable laterally towards the end of the bed. Then standard measurements of deflection on two axis can be measured in grams. Just this primitive measurement will give a good idea of how much deflection a cutting bit will apply to the mill which in turn gives you a bottom number of the accuracy you can expect.
A heavier Bridgeport like in your shop can take 200-500 grams before significant measurable deflection. Mini mills - good luck getting up to one ounce.
"Flaming-hot-dumpster-fire of online advice." Truer words, my friend...
;)
First video I've seen of yours, this is very high quality content. Subscribed!
@@JaredAF thanks very much, I appreciate it!
All great points you made there.
At the end of the day, any mill or lathe is better than no mill or lathe. I haven't got the room or money for a Bridgeport etc but I wouldn't be without my hobby sized machines now. I've done so much with them over the years.
Thanks very much. And I agree 100%, whatever machine you can get and use is the right one! Thanks for watching and commenting btw
I paid at least as much for my import machine as I would have spent on a decent used Bridgeport style machine but I simply don’t have the room. I’ve heard all of the arguments about a Bridgeport not taking up much more floor space than a bench-top but that doesn’t mean that I’d be able to wrangle a one ton+ machine down into my basement. Also, finding a decent used knee mill isn’t as easy as it used to be.
@@robertpearson8798 Yeah, even in my garage/workshop, trying to move a 1 ton machine would be a nightmare.
My mill is around 200kgs and that's bad enough, I moved recently, don't want to move that again.
@@robertpearson8798 yeah there are a lot of situations where a bench mill will fit but a full size knee mill is just out of the question.
@@robertpearson8798 Yeah, that's my situation too Robert... The PM-728VT, fully optioned out with all the delivery options, is about what a used Bridgeport in what I call "serviceable condition" would be in my neck of the woods. I don't have space for it though. Moving would be a challenge, even if the 97yr old floor in my garage could support the weight of it.
So benchtop machines are the way to go... Maybe someday if our next/forever home has a 3-car garage.
I had 2 of these, both were bad from the factory. Dovetails were off a mile in both. Everytime you unclamped the head it would tilt almost 0.020-0.050. Then when you retighed the clamps it never came back to zero. If you tightened up the gib didnt make any difference. After year and a half of messing around i returned the second 1 and bought a Jet JMD18 and havent looked back. Much much better than the dovetail mills. Finding a Bridgeport in my parts that are worth a hoot is like finding hens teeth. My lathe is a Rockwell 11x36 flame hardened bed. Geat score at the time and has been serving me well.
Wow, that's crazy, my experience with Precision Matthews has been the exact opposite of yours. I've had one of their lathes, and one of their mills, and they both arrived beautiful out of the crate. Glad you got it sorted either way.
I've found that the Chinese PM machines are no different than all the other Chinese machine tools from other brands. You get marginally better paint and different features, and better after-sales service. Other than that, they're all the same, same castings, same machining/grinding on the dovetails. PM does not claim that they get "the best castings" because they know they'd need to back up those claims.
I spent an afternoon trying to put a friends square column PM mill into tram. It had some problems with the head tilting forward, and an unfixable problem with the saddle dovetails being out of square. You need to check everything with a granite square and dti. His was purchased 2nd hand, so there was no option to return it.. I've also come to believe that the RF30/RF31 is generally a better bench mill than the RF45 dovetail machines, and the inexpensive 6x26 knee mill is even better.
Your issue is not with dovetail type machines. It’s with a mismachined dovetail. You found one bad Toyota and decided Kia is better
@jakeperry8773 No, I had 2 that were the same way. I also talked to a few others that had the same issue just not as bad as mine. Maybe the ones from Tiawain are better, mine was from China. Regardless these type machine all have there compromises, dovetail and round column. I just had alot better luck with my Jet, could be because it can from Tiawain or maybe I got lucky this time. Anyway I would not trade my round column for a dovetail, I'm sure there are others that disagree and I'm fine with that.
Have a Taiwanese round column mill/drill for more than 20 years. Back then there was no square column ones. Main drawbacks is the round column and belt changing of speed. On a round column you can't move head up or down without loosing precision. So you have to set height for the longest tool to use before. And have quill down much for the shortest tool. Speed changes takes lots of time, so rarely done. A gearbox may be noisy but you gets lots of torque on low speeds. Fitted it with quill and X/Y DRO and VFD speed control.
If I ever should buy a new mill, it would be a geared square column one with 3 or 4 axis DRO. Finding a used knee mill in decent condition is almost impossible.
I have been completely happy with my Grizzley 759.
Had a lowly 25mv for about 5 years, and in that time the pos paid for itself several times and allowed me to buy a better machine.
It's also a great to make all kinds of mistakes that would hurt a lot more on expensive equipment.
Just be prepared for a lengthy setup and a lot of grief, since even a little bump with throw it out of alignment in it's stock form.
Everything is fixable tho, just don't go crazy on the upgrades. They get quite pricey very fast.
Still use mine as a dedicated precision notching machine, so yeah ultimately I think it's a good buy.
I recently added a DRO to my mini mill and could never go back. It’s such a convenience. If I bought another or upgraded, it would have to include a DRO.
Agreed, a dro is a game changer
A must, without debate. Found two axis set for ~160€.
Mounting is tricky stuff though, especially Y axis.
Totally worth it though, like you said. A DRO is definitely a must upgrade on a mill. 👍
Yep! sheer luxury!!
Great video. Very helpful for someone like me trying to figure out what to look for when purchasing one of these. It is a large investment and difficult to find really good advice like this. Thanks.
@@GuitarDad5150 thank you, I’m really glad to hear that. I tried to cover stuff that I wish I’d known when I first started out. And thanks for watching!
This is a good quality video!
Thanks very much, and thanks for watching!
with my Warco minimill..it was a re badged Weiss mill...but Warco promised every machine was checked and came with their engineering report....it didnt...no report, head had wrong size bolt holes, looked used (evidenced by mangled battery cover for hight DRO) so....save money and get one from China directly. thats my personal experience.
That's awful, I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Was it covered by warranty and support? But I disagree whole heartedly. I spent a lot of time researching before I bought my first machines and settled on PM because of what I'd read and heard about them. I wasn't disappointed, and it turned out to be a great decision. Their support and warranty is fantastic. I actually broke my lathe a couple months after I got it, completely my fault. They sent the replacement parts free of charge, even though it was my fault, because they said it was a common beginner mistake. They then walked me through the entire repair process. Just excellent customer service and support.
This reminds me of the debates about whether Apple products are worth the extra cost. Almost all of them ignore Apple's 24/7 phone customer phone support by an intelligible local representative, or the ability to bring the product to a local Apple Store for help. Practically none of them consider the resale value. After a year or so of owning an Apple product, you can easily recover 50% or more of what you paid for it on the second hand market.
Top report, well spoken, thankU!
@@hersch_tool Precision Mathews are rebadged Chinese machines with a different paint job. But that's where the similarities end. They are considerably higher quality in terms of fit and finish, rigidity, and accuracy. Consequently, they cost more than what you would find online.
@@iggyppup thanks for watching!
Very measured and sensible analysis, mate. All the more credible, as you don't seem to be short of 'proper' machine tools in your shop. All in all, a really good explanation of what's what (also the style of presentation was very easy to watch too); New subscriber incoming. 😉
The only thing I'd take very slight issue with, is the advice to definitely avoid round column mills.
I'll grant that new, they're of questionable value, compared with the larger benchtop mills that are available from quality importers like Precision Matthews. However, used, well cared for Taiwanese RF/RF clones, manufactured say, in the 90s, can be a very inexpensive way of getting quite a fair bit of rigidity and capability in a benchtop mill.
The main issue of losing X/Y position when changing Z height can be fairly easily worked around. That Lazy Machinist has a good video on the "longest tool technique" to avoid having to change Z height. There are also a fair few videos around, that show modifications that pretty much remove the issue.
Okay, if someone has the money to buy a PM column mill then it's hard to argue with that choice (Precision Matthews is an importer that those of us in the UK would give our right arm to be able to use!😄)
If on the other hand, someone's budget is more limited (and couldn't fit a used knee mill in their shop), I'd reckon a decent used Taiwanese RF30/31 type is probably a better bet than one of the cheaper, smaller benchtop mills bought new.
Eh, just my thinking though, and that's worth about as much as you think it is. 😁
@@stevedavey1343 thanks very much, I appreciate the positive feedback! And yeah, I agree completely, any mill is better than no mill and there are a lot of options and considerations when looking into bench mills. I’m just trying to give a broad overview here and hopefully arm folks with some good questions to ask and serve as a starting point for further research to assist with making the best choice for the individual. Also I think that some of the nicer round column mills are precision keyed which eliminates the tramming loss issue altogether. Thanks for watching btw, and thanks for the sub!
Dunno why i watched this video. I have my mini mill, basically same model, just NOVA brand, love it, only motor direction control is with extra step, cant just toggle that switch - everytime, after direction change, need to push ON button, because circuit is very basic. I love metal tools, lovely content.
Thanks very much. And yeah my first lathe was the same exact way, had to push the on button whenever changing directions. And thank you for watching!
That was a good, clear and concise overview. I wish I had seen this 16 years ago! I've got a much older and crappier version of the PM25 (not a PM, but a UK importer). I don't think mine is the worst, but also certainly not the best. If I had my time again I would have stretched to the PM30 (although I don't think it was available at the time). The head rotation section is a weak point, there's only 2 bolts on mine, a centre pivot and one clamp bolt. I'll have to see if I can improve that bit. Mine is also a geared mill, and it is noisy. I have to knock the sound down by 12dB or so on my videos whenever it is running, as it's really quite loud.
Thanks very much. And yeah, those are exactly the things that we just don't know to look for until we have some time and experience, so that's the video I was aiming to make. I honestly got lucky with my choice for a first mill, and only learned to really appreciate just how good the machine actually was, and WHY, after some time with it.
If ur's is like the Optimum BF16v I got to replace my press-drill with u can drill two extra holes and mount it like he's shown. I did it on the BF16. The center bolt is now removed and the colum-lead-screw-nut mount point moved into its place (gave me ~3' / 75mm vertical EXTRA space).
PS: I found that tightening those two NEW bolts down now clamps the head to the column as it seems to deform the heads 'saddle' - so it's a bit more involved to get this to work properly!
Right to the point, well articulated, great video.
Thank you very much, and thanks for watching!
I have been really on the fence about getting one of those Chinese machines and you have answered a lot of my questions thanks. I can find a Bridgeport for about the same price but Im not very knowledgeable about what to look for so I dont know if the one I would find is any good so the new PM might be best and I do mostly smaller stuff anyway.
Thank you, I’m really glad to hear that the vid was helpful. That was my main goal. And I love my PM machine, in my opinion it’s a good choice.
I'm looking at mini mills. This helped a lot. Thank you.
I'm glad it was helpful, thanks very much for watching.
One should source higher Amp spec speed controllers, or provide additional heating in the form of heat sinks, and maybe a fan.
Decisions, decisions. I decided on the Bridgeport. J head, step pulley. Buy once, cry once.
Very good information. Thanks for making this video!
@@martyb3783 thank you, and thank you for watching!
i really appreciated that you were fair & balanced re: taiwanese/chinese machines. i've seen a lot of videos where people immediately get absurdly racist, so it was a nice change.
Thanks very much. I am just trying to share what very little knowledge I've gained through my personal experiences. I appreciate that, and thank you for watching.
Very good explaining here. You got yourself a new subscriber.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate it!
i got the 727m, with gears. . i full full power on low rpm. i can do 2" facemill cuts in all material. ti, steel, aluminum 2" facemill cuts in all material. ti, steel, aluminum
Yeah, the 727m is a proper gear head. Different from the simple gear drive referred to in this vid. Really nice machine. In general though, I think a lot of folks underestimate what some of the little mills are capable of. Thanks for watching btw.
@@hersch_tool definitely. for home shop. or making small parts, its great. use it for working on folding knives.
High School robotics team I mentor has a Grizzly mini mill with plastic tooth gears. I assume the plastic gears are for the noise I’m sure. Gears finally broke after many years of use. Online reseller makes replacement metal gears that fit perfectly. They were noisy at first, but finally wore in and became better.
I have an Optimum MH-28V, which looks very similar, casting wise. The Z height seems decent to me, hasn't bothered me too often, it's way more often the Y travel that trips me up, and makes me want a turret style mill.
Mines geared, but the noise isn't that bad. Low gear, high motor speed is a bit noisy (still quieter than the lathe), but if I'm needing that much spindle speed, a lot of the time I can just go to high gear. If I do need to stay in low gear with that much rpm, then the cutting is probably making more noise than the gears.
I do wish it had a bit more torque though. Sometimes, with the variable speed it will start over reving a bit to make up for lack of torque, even in low gear if using an annular cutter or something.
@@patrickbeck4062 yeah torque/cutting power is definitely a place where they can struggle. Big drills and annular cutters are good examples of times where you might have to “work it” a bit… lol
Nice video. Very useful. I would love to get a old solid big mill. I just don’t have space. A mini mill is going to have to do it.
Thanks very much. And yeah, a lot of people are in that same situation. That was my situation until I got blessed with the shop space that I have now. And some people also just don't even want to deal with the big machines, honestly they are a real PITA lol.
Great info man, thanks.
Thank you, and thanks very much for watching. 👍
Great content. Thank you.
@@flyzeyefab thank you for watching
There is a happy medium. actually a happy 2/3. Consider the PM 935 if you want a mini-Bridgeport (1500 lb)
Nice machine indeed, but also in a considerably different price bracket unfortunately.
Good info.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you very much, and thanks for watching :)
Nice video. On z-height, the trickiest situation for me is using a reamer. These are very long and typically don’t fit in a collet.
Thanks very much, and yeah that's a really great example of a situation where Z height can get tight.
I shorten the shank on reamers for the mini mill . Good keyless chuck if you have enough z hite.
@@bobbybishop5662yes, agree, although it always hurts my feelings just a little when I cut into a pristine tool 🙂
as Positive critique, you should add a DISCLAIMER of some sort. Not only would it increase the value of your videos content, it speaks to the credibility of this platform.
A disclaimer? Saying what, that I have no idea what I'm talking about? I've issued that one many, many times... lol
A good guide to the pros and cons of benchtop/mini mills. The only point where I disagree with you is the suggestion that someone purchasing a new machine might want to choose a Morse taper quill.
Morse taper quills are a far less preferable option than a R8 quill. My advice is to ignore the fact that you may already own a selection of MT2 or MT3 tooling and purchase a machine with an R8 quill.
Thanks very much. And yeah, I definitely understand the point you're making and generally agree with your logic. I think it's a choice that should be considered carefully either way. And the R8 taper is unarguably the better taper for a mill spindle.
Got a R8 quill machine. Have a lathe with MT3. So, bought a MT3 ER32 collet holder to fit into R8 quill
Works for me. Thanks for your input.
I came looking for this comment. I'm not a machinist, but what I've heard from the people who are is that even if they can share tools between their lathes and mills, they still end up never doing it, making the trade offs not worth it.
@@M_Northstar It really depends, I share tooling between my machines all the time. But the point being made is that R8 is a better taper for a mill spindle, which is definitely true. But even R8 isn't perfect, NMTB 40 is even better than R8, etc, etc. That being said, for some of the machines on the smaller end of the spectrum R8 might not even be an option. And if someone is really working with small machines in a small space it might be a decision they find worth considering.
Question, you said that round column mills are inferior to a square column type can you explain why this is so?
So far, my $500 jet jmd-18 round column mill is kicking butt compared to a square column mill. And I haven’t even used it 😬
They are less rigid. Round column mills are essentially just beefed up drill presses. They are better than a drill press but you will be taking light cuts.
Don’t EVER pick a mt2 spindle over r8. Morse tapers are mostly for drilling. Bridgeports are the most common knee mill and they run an r8 spindle nose. Tooling is very easy to find
I've had my PM30 about a year and a half, and I love it! I've had no issues with mine. I make custom knives, and this mill is so handy drilling precision holes for handle pins or screws, guards. As with most machines a lot of the expense is the tooling, more tooling makes it more versatile.
Yeah, tooling is a never ending expense that will dwarf the machine costs in no time lol. Thanks!
I have a vevor mini lathe with metal (not plastic) drive gears. But as an avid 2 wheel enthusiasts, I have concerns about your review of the differences in the mill. Color means nothing.
Aftermarket plastics for motorcycles are priced from $200 - $800 (like auctmart) and others. I had issues where the plastics literally exploded after installing. I did some major digging to find out who makes the best aftermarket set, and their price differences compared to quality. Turns out every single aftermarket manufacturer (or re-saler) has their product made from the exact same machine, in the same production line, using the exact same material. They just have different stickers placed on them. Coming from China, I'm going to go out on a limb and say every single machine is exactly the same, but the (re-saler) manufacturer has them painted for their associated theme.
I'm looking into hobby mills, but after getting my vevor, and then finding out that a product that is (I believe) made in Australia with power fed everything (table, cross-slide, etc....) could be had for about about twice what i paid for more than the junk I bought, I was mad. Channel "cool ideas DIY" has a similar style machine I'm talking about. I won't be getting a Chinese mill. I don't care about any reviews, I know China is just junk with a pretty bow. It has been over a year since I last looked, so I forgot the brand, iirc "artisan makes" has that lathe of interest as well.
Brand has nothing to do with the paint job. Ive had import/chinese machines and tools from different importers/manufacturers in the shop and have actually used them. They are certainly not the same machine with a different paint job. That said, yes many of them absolutely are the same which is why I stressed the importance of buying from a well known and REPUTABLE brand that is domestically owned and operated, like PM in the US for example. Do your research. Artisan's machines are both Chinese made iirc?
Excellent analysis!!! Great shop too BTW... You've got a nice Bridgeport and horizontal mill. For home shop guys, a Bridgeport is the ultimate mill to have. I'd love to have one, but I don't have the space, the time or the money to rehab one of the tapped out machines that I'd be able to afford. Precision Matthews are great machines by most accounts. Looking to buy a PM-728VT in the next year or so, and a matching lathe not soon after that.
Luckily for me, a bench mill is more than big enough for my needs, as is a small 10-30ish lathe...
Thank you! And yeah I have been EXTREMELY lucky and blessed with my shop and machines. My first machines were both PM machines, and I've loved them. Through restoring and selling machines I've been able to build out a shop that far exceeds anything I'd ever imagined. The big machines have their downsides too though, the main being handling them. My wife and I want to get a homestead someday, and the thought of moving my shop has become terrifying at this point lol.
@@hersch_tool Yeah, I get the moving issue completely! It's the primary reason why I've not ordered the PM-728VT and a lathe. We're going to be moving from CT to PA in a year or so and I don't want to have to move the machines twice. As it is, if I did buy them now, I'd have to disassemble the mill to be able to move it down to my basement workshop. Not sure if I'd be able to do the same with a lathe. Don't want to do it over again, to move it up out of the workshop!
But bigger machines would be great... If money and space were no object, I'd be buying a reconditioned, better than new Bridgeport and Hardinge lathe, but that's not going to happen.
All the best to you!
@@WHJeffB Yep, you get it exactly lol. Also, congrats on moving out of CA? I was based in SF for several years, it's where I met my wife. I grabbed her and my dog, and escaped in 2020 and haven't looked back.
"For home shop guys, a Bridgeport is the ultimate mill to have"
Deckel would like a word! 😄
@@stevedavey1343 Maaaaaaan, I would fight an entire clan of ninjas with laser swords for a Deckel FP1 with attachments. Unfortunately, they just don't exist in the states. At lease not in any realistic sense for a home shopper.
For milling, MT tooling is only viable in conjunction with a draw bar. Lathe tail stocks don‘t have draw bars and the tools you might have laying around for your lathe are likely not to have the threaded hole at the end of their taper to accept a draw bar. Keep this in mind before deciding to buy a mill with MT taper thinking that you will share the lathe tools. Also, an MT2 taper is really flimsy for milling, compared to R8.
I wish these companies would make an old school manual shaper. Even an idiot like me could figure out how to make keyways and dovetail slides.
Grizzly
I see you have aClausing Colchester 15. I hope you love it as much as I love mine.
Lol, it's a complete wreck, I miss my 15" leblond honestly. I'm currently working on it when I have time. but I've never seen a machine in worse condition, it was not well maintained... I hope to get it running at some point, but we'll see I guess lol.
great video !
Thank you!
I’m just wading through what tooling, holders etc I need for an R8 machine. lol
Big question. Personally, id say a set of r8 collets from 1/16" to 3/4", a 3/4" & 1" end mill holder, an r8 drill chuck, and some size of arbor for slitting saws, form cutters, etc. For the arbor, just search for the types of cutters you expect to use in the future and find a common arbor size that covers a wide range of options, then buy an arbor of that size. That little pile of tooling will go a long way.
can you do another video on the digital fine feed? I don't know what that is or why it's the butter on the biscuit, Thanks
It is a digital scale that measures the up and down movement of the spindle quill at high resolution.
There is one simple rule of thumb: as big as you can fit for as much money you can spend. And a "slightly" used good machine is at least twice as good as a Chinese-machine. We bought a Shizuoka-mill from Japan, a real Ferrari, for the price of a smallish Chinese...
I guess there is a fine line to be walked on the precision of a machine. Do you need something that can work at micron level of repeatability in every project you do? Or can you outsource that one part per year that needs to be super precise to a workshop that has a precision CNC, and you can live with higher tolerance amd dimensional errors on your everyday work. I guess if you look at power requirements, there are similar considerations to be made. Do you need to quickly remove a lot of material in one pass, because you have limited time and too much work to do? Or can you do a few cuts with a smaller tool that take a lot longer, to get the same amount of material removed?
@@ProtonOne11 this is spot on. Everyone has a unique circumstance and requirements, and it’s more often than not a balancing act of compromises.
yep! the materials used in the cast iron, the quality of the casting and the final machining to spec. a named brand has higher tollerances and requirements than say "joe Hong" who took a cart in to a factory, grabbed a bunch of parts from a scrap, painte3d and assembled and sold it online. (about 80% of the time the no namaed brands are made up of scrap parts that did NOT cut the mustard for the named brands. now, if you buy parts 1 at a time you get top quality just like the named brand, as in my case. my origional cross slide was destroyed and so far out of wack it was not salvageable. i got a new one and BAM! dead nuts perfect! at a cost of $109 shipped but that was worth the $ compaired to the headache i was getting before.
Yep, exactly!
Great graphics!
Thank you!
Always chose Taiwan!
OK that was a decent start. So when do you start talking about ALL the stuff about mini mills? Not bad. A good overview.
Thanks, that was the intention, to give an overview and provide helpful info for finding a good machine. And thank you for watching :)
I have a machine very similar to yours, but something I don't like about mine is that the bearings are shielded and there are no lubrication ports.
Why does that bother you? My machine has shielded taper roller bearings as well. They're designed to last a very long time.
@@hersch_tool All machines I know have lubrication ports. I didn't know this other system existed. Thanks for explaining it to me.
avoid the tilting collum machines too. the whole thing tilts on 1 bolt and it is so unstable it always comes loose causing issues.
@@mike9500 ooof, yeah that’s a horrible design
I have one of those, and plan on modifying it with tensioned stabilizer bars, either solid slotted with bolts, or with turnbuckles. It works well enough for what I do with it, though it does not have the original milling table base top, so had to make do with a makeshift one out of large C channel and an import xy mill table. Needs a lot of work for actual precision, but it does what I need it to do for now.
@@asakayosapro if it works for ya good to go!
Very good video over all.
A couple things I would add/disagree with.
First of all it is normally not the casting that gets rejected, those are normally pass/fail. It is the finished part that is culled and resold. I had a 16” Grizzly lathe that was so bad even the dowel pins were misdrilled factory seconds!
Secondly I wouldn’t knock the old round column machines tho they are harder to use they have produced billions of good parts for probably 60-70 years.
I wouldn’t consider the machine you were showing a mini mill tho.
Size wise match your mill to your work.
I have found mills run out of capacity much faster than a lathe.
Don’t knock a half size knee mill.
While is is always good to get the stoutest machine available accuracy is much more important, non of these machines are going to take heavy cuts so unless your goal is to just reduce metal to chips just for the hell of it make sure you buy a quality machine.
Cost of tooling is pretty much the same no matter what size of machine you buy(vises are the exception).
Don’t buy too much machine moving big machines is expensive and dangerous.
@@pvtimberfaller excellent points, I agree pretty much with everything you’ve brought up. Thanks!
Hello
Thanks for sharing your videos with us.
Ihave a question :
Ilive in Austria and why the prouduct that comes from China to the Germany and Austria the quality is very very good?and also why all the mark and also the writing on the machine is German although is from china? Also the company is German company but I’m sure coms from china.
I’m waiting for your response or if someone knows why?
Thanks
Best regards sina ❤
I have an Optimum brand mill and to the best of my knowledge they are built in China in a factory managed by Germans,so quality is higher.... it's just a lot more cost effective to build them in Chinese factories.
@@damojfowler so ihave one ARTEC mini mill and the company is I think Austria or Germany.do you think the quality is good although it made in china?
Thanks so much for watching. And as commented above, importers will have a management presence in the Chinese factories. It works the same for US importers, and most other well known machine tool importers in other locations. It would be great to see this kind of production move back to their respective home countries, I would love to see manufacturing come back to the states, but unfortunately that's not how things work at the moment.
@@hersch_tool ihooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope sooooo.
Thanks for your response
Great video... I've had my PM30 about 5 years... It's great for my needs.
I also have many PSA stickers, but my mill has a Bronco sticker there. 😂
Yeah, the PM30 is a great little machine. I want to do a CNC conversion on mine. Also lol, that's good to hear ;)
Great vid., well thought out, and well presented.
Thank you very much :)
i hate mine, i love mine... i guess mines the bigger sister. HM45...46?
it works, but i spent a bit of time learning its idiosyncrasies?
being left semi exposed for a few years wasnt the best thing for the bearings... box got water in it.
so stripped it down and thats when i found the major issue, that one of the gear shafts has a nasty big crack in it along one of the keyways. from the factory judging by the grinding marks... bit hard to select one speed and i know that one day its going to have to be stripped down and remade... at the same time, see if i can beef it up a bit as well.
in this country we have a monopoly of one seller/importer and theyre not interested in after sales support... not even really interested in pre-sales support, lol. a reputation for "customer service" but what can you do given no alternative but bend over and take it?
the big challenge will be when i finally get motivated to start scraping it... gotta love the "decorative" factory scraping... it still has the cutter marks on some of the ways!
not hard as such, just tedious and some parts weigh a bit.
i still cry about letting a bridgeport go years ago as i didnt have the shed for it (remember that bit about "semi exposed"?)
How can one man be so talented and handsome?
HAHAHA! You might be over exaggerating on both accounts, but that's ok by me, flattery will get you EVERYWHERE! 😁❤
Some of the Chinese machines are decent but can be very easily improved
So, should I buy a PM30V? LOL
I have no idea. Research and make your own decision. I simply provide my opinion based on my experience.
Nice video. A little more pallet able than my monster lathe video.
ey yo! shut your ass up! that was a lovely video and a lovely lathe! I won`t hear anything to the contrary!
Tho, i`ll commend you for the pun!
Cheers mate,
Best regards!
Thanks man. Personally, I love your monster lathe video lol.
@@hersch_tool yeah does have some good info
Awesome video
!
Thanks! ;)
Ah, a ‘The Truth’ video.
Thanks for watching
Had trouble deciding on Mill. Gave up on comments/opinions. Got onto 'Artisan makes', listened as he went through about his choice of Mill, what he did to it, etc. Got the same make, size. As a old 'newbie', gunna do what I want/ can, and enjoy the trip.. Seig SX2.7L
That's all that really matters, enjoy yourself and don't sweat the unnecessary details. 👍
Well, a Bridgeport isn’t quite that heavy. It’s 1,995 pounds. Still pretty heavy though. Most of these companies don’t buy castings. They buy entire machines. What does happen is that the actual manufacturers, most of whom people have never heard of, off the same basic machine. With different features. But often, they also offer them in different quality, or precision characteristics. Importers, and that what Precision Mattews, Grizzly and others around the world are, decide what they want their products to cost, and then decide on what reputation they want to have (if they care at all!). Then they buy the machine that meets those expectations, gets them painted their color, with their logo tag. It’s preferable to try to avoid a machine with a DC motor. Yes, you do get variable drive, but the torque with DC motors can be low. A three phase motor with a VFD, as some machines have, is much better. They run on single phase, often 240, but some run on 120. VFDs have torque control, so they maintain high torque at low speed, just as geared and belt drives do. I generally don’t recommend geared head mills. Because these are low cost machines, the head has just a few speed choices. Often, just six. The top speed is also usually under 2,000 rpm. That’s too low for small mill bits. If you’re using a four flute bit in high speed, you should be at least 2,500 rpm, preferably higher. If it’s carbide, you should be at least 3,000. Smaller bits need higher speeds. You can mill at lower rpm, but your rate will be very slow, and the depth of cut will be small. The lower the speed, the easier to break a bit, because let’s face it, people who are new to this aren’t going to check the tables to find the optimum speed and feed, and will overdo them. I’ve seen people on TH-cam breaking bits constantly because of this.
Really great points and info, thanks for taking the time to comment. When I first started out I broke my fair share of end mills, (still do lol) for exactly the reason you stated. I think for beginners it can be intimidating running at the speeds that will in actuality produce the best results so we tend to be detrimentally conservative. Also yeah, the bridgeport is easy to move, the B&S and the Clausing lathe on the other hand?… a little sketchy for a guy with a pallet jack lol
The real decision is crank handle vs. CNC. Manual mill-drills, mini-mills, and yes that venerable hulking Bridgeport, are yesterday’s tech. Before you commit a bunch of money to one of these boat anchors, look at what’s available in the land of hobby CNC.
I don't think that's accurate for a majority of people looking at manual machines. Many of us in this hobby are looking for something out of manual machines that we simply can't get from CNC. When I was looking for my first machines, I was fully aware of CNC, but CNC machines weren't even a consideration. That's not what I wanted, and I believe that's true for a lot of folks.
Bridgeport mills are so cheap right now, I have a hard time justifying a mini mill for nearly the same price?
@@jryer1 yeah but there are other things to consider for a lot of folks I think, like size for instance. when I got my first mill, the PM in this vid actually, I was in a small shed with a wooden floor that couldn’t support a machine the size of a BP. Also the bench mills are small and easy to use, run on single phase “plug and play”, etc. that stuff is attractive for a lot of newbies as well.
Great content, just curious since I’m in the process of buying a mini mill. How do you see dovetails vs linear-rails?
You mean ball bearing linear rails? It depends on the application I think. They are fantastic for certain circumstance. And thank you!
To answer the questions you DON'T NEED TO BE IN VISION,
What is a mini mill??????......certainly not anything that is like a Bridgeport.
Toys or tools?
I like to think both? 😉
As long as it beats a file it's got a purpose, really.
Typically electric motors have the most torque at low speeds and lose torque as they speed up. (gearing and belts aside)
I have access to mill and lathe at work, but I don't want to break them learning. and I would like to be able to work on things at home.
Most of my projects are not in need of more than +-.005" accuracy, and are small hobby stuff, experiments, prototypes, simple things for myself, not a business. I need something good enough to learn on that I can move around if needed (even if I have to use a cherry picker or disassemble it into chunks to move it).
It's about learning, good enough, and not being worried about breaking someone else's equipment.
Great video, I just have a question. Might a geared spindle even though noisier, have more torque? I really have no idea, just curious.
Edit: I've been looking at slightly larger PM machines is the reason I ask.
No, there are no real torque benefits to the geared heads but they are immensely more noisy than the polyvee belt drive head like Hersch has here.....given a choice I would always opt for the belt driven head rather than gears.
Exactly what @howardosborne8647 said. Of course, a real "gear head" mill with a proper gear train that's been specifically designed to generate mechanical advantage is a different story. IE; the back gear in a bridgeport for example. But that's different from what we're talking about here.
@@hersch_tool PM on its website clearly states that gear heads will give you more torque at lower rpm when machining steel
PM on their website clearly states that geared head will give you more torque at lower RPM when cutting steel
@@ronson66 a “gear head” machine is an entirely different design from what’s discussed in the video. See my other comment above.
Uhhh pretty sure electric motors torque goes down with rpm not up….power goes up with rpm but torque is the flat till it drops off at high rpm
I spent a long time looking at bench top mills and the things that ultimately made the difference for me was the length and what was covered by the warranty, as well as what people who were using the machines were saying in various forums.
I find it interesting how much hatred some folks have for Chinese made equipment. There are several TH-cam contributors, who repair industrial equipment, who speak well of their Chinese machinery.
Yeah I agree, warranty and customer service goes a long way, especially in the early days of learning the basics. Some folks do really seem to have a deep hatred of the Chinese tools and machines. I have both, old industrial and import, and I use both. There are pros and cons to each. My PM bench mill is probably the most accurate mill that I have.
PSA sticker spotted.
;)
..."You can't return your purchase if your package has opened or has used"
Thank you...a good overview! 👍i recently bought a 35 Years old EMCO Lathe...a chineses knock off was cheaper, it would have much more features, even DRO and so on. But....this old EMCO was fabricatet to very high specs in Austria...and it is a dream. I am no fan of these 700bucks Chinese Tools (Lathe or Mill)...taiwanese maybe, they know, what they are doing.
EMCO machines are beautiful. And yeah, Austrian machines are in a whole different category from Chinese imports, that's for sure. Good to see you in the comments btw, thanks for stopping by!
Thank you for a very useful video. I learned doing the hard way. Now i find i need a smaller mill. Cramped for space and what type of work i do have been thinking about the pm 30 . Thanks again!
Thanks very much for watching. And I honestly can't say enough good things about the PM30, it's an all around great machine.
@@hersch_tool The PM30 is a superb machine for the price....more than capable enough for most home workshops and even light industrial usage.
The only thing I differ from Hersch on is the choice of spindle fitting...If you're buying a new machine choose the R8 spindle as it is a far superior tool locating system than any of the Morse tapers could ever be.
@@howardosborne8647 absolutely agree 👍
@@howardosborne8647 I can definitely appreciate what you're saying.
Hard to say bad things about the PM mini-mills. I wish they were much cheaper but I say that about everything that I want but cannot afford. For small machining they seem like a lot of fun and capable for small parts. Not going to machine an engine block or head but great for making small parts and models.
Yep, agreed. And also, double agreed lol.
I wish they weren't all that hideous blue..
I'm partial to green or grey myself. There's always paint though ;)
I agree : stay away from round column mills. They are cheap, but when you have to change between longer an shorter tools (long drill to chamfer drill) you will lose your zero reference EVERY time, and that gets very old very fast!
This is exactly right. That's why I call them "drill mills". IMO they are a drill press first, that happens to have an XY table and an R8 taper.
@@hersch_tool Mine is an RF30 and has an MT3. I am in the process of swapping to a machine with square column. If I ever get to mounting the DRO on that … 🙄
@@hersch_tool I've heard round column mills also referred to as "coordinate drilling machines"... Meaning, they're more ideal for drilling hole patterns in a part to a fairly tight positional tolerance. Rather than an acceptable milling machine.
First!
CHAMPION
They are all bad. Push off is around .015 to .020 thousands. Any good CNC or Bridgestone Mill will only push off .002 max.
To lower push off add weight to the machines base such as laying it into cement to dry to create rigidity.
just PCB wayyyyyyyyyyyy it all. :-P
Look if I am going to take advice from someone they better have a bad ass mustache like yours.
Hahahaha! But facts though ;)
Don’t buy a milling machine with a Morse taper
If it has a draw bar, then it shouldn't matter.
*_Divorce the wife and get a Bridgeport._*
LOL. I wouldn't have a shop, or a channel if it wasn't for my wife. She believes in me when I don't believe in myself, and makes me feel like I can do anything. When I first started talking crazy about spending a bunch of money on machines I didn't know anything about, she's the one who said, "do it, you'll be good at it, and it will make you happy." She was right, at least about the second part ;)
I suppose it all depends of what you want to do with it. If you want to use it as a hammer, maybe better buy a hammer :)
lol indeed
As someone whose machines speak German and hum the ``Horst-Wessel lied`` when we are alone, I can`t say much about modern machines, but what i can see is that a lot of modern machines, especially the import variety - has a compounding issue of material lack, a problem that has exponential growth with each step-down in machine size... That column on your mini-mill is utter shit... I have seen those mills, even the smaller variety, and that is just unacceptable in my eyes... The rest of the castings are quite decent, even a bit of an overkill in some regards, but that column is way too flimsy and not just that, but it`s hollow as well?!(knew that, just always boggles the mind) I mean, the x axis table is almost more sturdy than the head carrier axis, how can that be? The head, or the spindle is the most important aspect in a way, and if the machine allows that axis to wobble and flex in any way, you are bound to have issues, from precision to tool wear issues, but they will be your constant companions, lest you machine plastics, but that is a torture of it`s own kind, and as such is outside the scope of this comment...
I`m considering mounting my mini-lathe on a large mill table, you know, as a method to make `er more skookum, and all that i can think about is how damn bad i want to have a lower for that table, as i don`t want to rest it on the dovetails, nor do i want to make 2 clamps that allow me a 3 point contact setting up of the table, or rather the lathe, as that will allow the cast iron to ``sag`` in the middle - being unsupported... And they dare sell you a machine with a main axis casting that i would not trust to injure someone if it fell on them, what kind of compromise is that? Get outta here, and bring me some gabagool on your way back... 20 years in the can... I ate grilled cheese off the radiators which had thicker casting sections than that column... I wanted to fuck a woman, but i compromised - I jacked off in a tissue instead, and the tissue was more rigid than the head swivel joint when fully clamped... How`s that for a compromise? And don`t you ``uncle Philly me``, like that animal Blundetto... 20 years and not a single peep... And i return to this? No more Butchie, no more!
Best regards and kind wishes!
Steuss
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:14-21