Elden Ring was such a conflicting game for me… and I think that this video really helped me understand why I didnt enjoy the game as much as I thought I would. The combat and enemy variety was great but exploring scenic vistas and painting-like locations didn’t seem to have much value other than looking nice. I’ve never felt so conflicted on a game before. The open world was vast and incredible, but the most amount of interaction seemed to come purely from combat… and it felt like a waste of potential for me. I still like the game a lot. But I definitely felt that weird disconnect between the open-world and the creative dungeon-level design. Great video! It really helped me formulate my thoughts on the game.
Really enjoyed this. What I love about this game is that I totally agree with these criticisms and even as I'm hearing you say these things, my only thought is, I can't wait to get back to playing it. I do love that in this game that areas aren't gated behind bosses. I like having the option of exploring and then returning to a boss later with different gear or strategies.
Great to hear your thoughts. You made me think about the gameplay in the open world - I did notice that the horse's controls are insanely smooth and lacks any kind of weightiness to it. It almost feels like the open world is just a completely no-pressure environment where the challenge of the game is lifted off the player. Then, you go into a dungeon or main story area and it turns back into Dark Souls.
Totally. And the no-pressure, chill exploration is awesome! I'm totally cool with that ebb and flow of difficulty. It's hard to express, but I guess I wanted to think and interact a bit more during the exploration. BotW's climbing and Death Stranding's traversal are extreme examples, and I don't mean to say that From should've ripped those ideas off per se, but I'm just kinda surprised (and disappointed) something similar isn't in Elden Ring. Thanks for watching, tho, duder! If you ever decide to do a video on your own thoughts, too, I would love to see that (no pressure, obvs).
@@TheCrawl I totally get what you mean I think. The open section of the world is beautiful and definitely has a lot of variety, secrets, NPCs, etc to discover - but there's 0 urgency or tension to the gameplay. You're just zooming around on your horse like a madman. Death Stranding & BOTW are definitely good examples - the climbing, gliding, choosing the best path for traversal are all a great element of tension & choice in those games. I would like to make a video on this game. I've been having trouble grasping the motivation to work on my channel for a while now, but I'm hoping to get back into it soon.
Okay, double-commenting here but: Fantastic critique of open world design philosophy. I am really curious to see how the world portion hits me. Dark Souls 1 is my favorite of the series having played DeS (ps3), DaS2 SotFS (360 & XB1), and DaS3 (XB1) as well. For me, I'll never know if I'll like an open world or not until I play it. There seems to be no consistent criteria. I find The Witcher IIs world to be quite boring and when "exploring" I was just looking at the minimap half the time. But on the other hand the almost completely empty Great Sea in Wind Waker to add a lot to the game and serve as a really satisfying space for me. The Arceus comparison is also a good one though. Engagement and purpose. I also like that I can tell you still really enjoy the game despite the critiques. It's okay to critique the games you love just like it's okay to defend them.
Thanks, duder! I did my best to convey my issues in a way that sounded more constructive than damning, so I'm glad it struck you that way. I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on this once you play it! I'm also a Dark Souls 1 die-hard, and a fan of wind waker's "empty" Great Sea, but who knows--we may end up with different opinions on the open world in ER. This game is so unique in the genre, it's honestly hard to explain things even after 20+ hours with it.
Since it's been a year now, and this is the first time I've actually seen this so I've completed the game fairly thoroughly and spoiled a few things I didn't manage to find, what point had you reached by the time you made this video? Did your opinion change later on? About... somewhere in the middle I was getting fatigue, running into similar boss enemies, finding yet another mine or whatever that fit too close a pattern to ones I'd happened upon already, I'd reached a point of near exhaustion despite the generosity of the places and creatures. One thing I actually enjoyed in contrast to what you're saying is the ability to judiciously retreat if I wanted to try something else, and I also found that Torrent changed how I interacted with the environment (especially when I tried a no Torrent run later). But at one point approaching maybe 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through, the caves etc got very clever, the challenges ramped up in unexpected ways, some interesting places became accessible, and some characters' stories progressed, and I found I was back into it again. I've rarely played a game like that where my thoughts went up and down, but it's a long enough game that there were likely going to be some pacing and perception differences. My first Souls is still where my heart is but my over all impression of this was higher in many categories, and I'm not sure if my enjoyment would have increased if it'd just been shorter, I guess I needed a bit of space to see the patterns and then have them subverted. I do agree that the modes of interaction could have been a bit broadened. The combat had nice texture but in most games now I tend to want to do more than just slaughter stuff. I guess one thing I thought there would be more of would be the strange and uncanny stuff like the mausoleums. There are some interesting surreal architecture and situations but I expected a bit more
A lot of what you said resonates with me and my experience, actually. To answer your questions: If I remember correctly, I had just reached Leyndell when I made this video, after beating Godrick, Rennala, and Radhan, and doing tons of side stuff elsewhere. So roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the game. Funnily enough, the back half of the game is actually where I started loving it. Mt Gelmnir, Leyndell, Farum Azula, the Haligtree, and the underground sections all felt more like the classic From experience I was missing from a lot of the early hours, and the last few open world sections when you’re in the land of the giants were more interesting to me since they were denser and I felt like the stuff there was more interesting and more challenging. I kinda talk about some of this in my GotY 2022 video as well, but not as in-depth. Then after that video I actually ended up doing a NG+ run early this year and found it a lot more enjoyable, since I could rush through the early areas I wasn’t as fond of, which ironically made me like them a bit more. I still have some gripes and nitpicks, and I would rank a few other From games higher on my personal list, but I also love the game now.
@@TheCrawl Thanks for your thoughts! Yeah, I couldn't quite justify a second run right away so I shelved it but if I'd tried it again I would know what items I really want to get without worrying about spoiling myself when using reminders (the beast repellent torch is my single favorite item in the whole game, I used it a lot). I'd also probably skip a lot of the caves and such, maybe part of my mid game disappointment was me hoping for more than an Ash or an item that might not suit me atfter fighting a too-familiar boss, back when the smaller dungeons were fairly straightforward. Toward the end they were super tricky and I was really happy they "went there" with some of their tricks. The bigger places like the Haligtree and Farum Azula were awesome in both senses of the word. Also I think I connected with the NPC stories way more than in prior Souls games, some of them really got to me in a good way.
Separate post, after your invitation to share thoughts. I'm 60ish hours in, 3 demigods down. I like to take my time and explore thoroughly. I don't go out of my way (anymore) to collect items for the sake of crafting, and I largely skip overworld trash mobs. Here's a rough copy paste from the forum I frequent: Elden Ring is FromSoftware's truly epic odyssey. In giving the player so much freedom to roam where they please, the player never knows if they are truly overlevered or underpowered. This can lead to a scenario where you lose all of your xp b/c you may find yourself locked in a room against an indomitable boss encounter (e.g. Centipede Bull). All boss encounters found in the overworld can be withdrawn from. One thing I've felt in the latter half of my playthrough is just how overpowered I've become. Now, this is my 7th FromSoftware experience since Demon's Souls, so my play is influenced from those experiences. That said, I am happy to report that the game still has plenty of content in the endgame that has provided me with ample challenge. Here are a slew of random thoughts that I identify as this game's strengths and weaknesses: -the map does a great job of planting seeds in your mind for exploration. there's enough detail that you can make out structures, cave entrances, larger dungeons, and so forth -traversing the open world feels great, particularly b/c your horse (Torrent) doesn't get in the way of your fun much at all. Torrent doesn't buckle against the environment, you can double jump whenever you want to, and you mount/dismount at zero speed, while walking, or even running -mounted combat HAS grown on me, I find it especially fun NOW that I learned you can swing with either hand (it took me until the 30 hour mark to learn I didn't have to always just swing with the right hand). I particularly love using the flai, as it has a very fun wind up animation, I can't speak for other weapon types. At first I found it clunky, but I learned I just had to get the timing down to truly find the fun of it -switching weapons and toggling two handed is clunkier than before -Jumping: frustrating when the game calls for platforming, as some jumps require you to get a running start and sometimes you won't have much surface area to do so confidently (e.g. in caves). That said, seldom does the game require to make use of on-foot jumping. I do like the new combat possibilities it adds though, doing jumping smash attacks can be very fun, especially when leaping off horseback to start an engagement, truly wonderful stuff -boss fights that aren't given the traditional VIP treatment with their own cutscenses and music feel much like the "filler" bosses from Dark Souls 2. Often they are unceremoniously introduces and BAM the action starts. I've seen some boss recycling (mainly b/c the game has so many mini-dungeons (caves) that remind me of the Chalice Dungeons from Bloodborne. Some layouts are repeated, but each has their own unique encounter design. And in usual From tradition, some bosses show up in the overworld as regular encounters later on -the VIP bosses have been as spectacular as what we've seen in the past. The game suggests there are 5 demigods, I've only defeated 3 thus far (60+ hours in). The arenas are unique and wonderful, the enemy design totally killer -I loved that the game had me keep a notepad to take down notes, as you meet many NPCs who ask favors of you. Also, it's very easy to set forth toward destination A, when all of the sudden you see something else and decide to change your plans. I have several notes reminding me to go back to destination A and C when I got sidetracked by destination B, oh and don't forget to check out destination D that we've mentally bookmarked -I was disappointed to learn that the crafting only extends to consummables. I was hoping we would be able to craft unique/legendary weapons and armor. As it is, you can only trade in great souls for items, or purchase unique equipment worn by bosses from a special merchant after besting them. How cool would it have been to find schematics for weapons and be able to work toward them? -Item upgrading: progression has felt organic, I think much of my success is due to the fact that I focus on few items to ensure my damage output is conisstent and strong. Progression here is logical, easy to understand, and even covneinet to farm for if you're into upgrading multiple weapons at once. -multiplayer: I was never a big fan of the multiplayer element, and it feels even less present in this experience, especially so with the new summon system. Unlike the previous games where I was given the option of summoning an NPC for a boss, here you collect summoning archetypes (pokemon) that you can summon in certain open world sections and in most boss fights. Thankfully, I've never felt like they're so strong that they can render an encounter obsolete, but I did find them to be very helpful to distract the bosses, especially when you're pitted against one that has minions, or if you're in an Ornstein and Smough situation. I actually had an awesome experience last night where my Nomadic Archer summon saved my ass in dramatic fashion as his off-screen arrow distracted the boss in the nick of time for me to deliver the killing blow -lore/note-taking: keeping track of NPCs and their favors is all on you. You'll find items in the overworld either at their request, or after you've even met them. I've had both happen in my experience. And don't sweat it, you're likely to miss NPC story beats on your first playthrough, sometimes b/c of typical From vagueness, and sometimes b/c the NPCs can be easily missed when they're just standing about in the overworld. Thankfully often times they're near named locations on the map or near checkpoints, I don't think I've ever encountered and NPC who isn't near some landmark or marker. Still, there have been moments where I could have easily had the camera pointed some OTHER way and completely miss their being there (I especially like where the Millicent questline is heading, no idea what the payoff will be) final thought from my play session today 3/3: -Super happy to say that the end-game content is still keeping me on my toes. By no means do I feel overpowered or like I'm stomping my way through as I was when "cleaning" up the map BEFORE hitting the Capital. In my mind, the capital = endgame, I've yet to see if this is still true, but at this point I feel like my character's level pretty much equates to end-game levels. The level design of the Capital is EXACTLY what I was craving but did not receive when DS3 teased the Ringed City. I feel like the Capital feels like its own Yharnam. It is huge, varied, and a wonderful take on a dedicated "kingdom."
Wow, thank you for commenting! There's a lot here, so I will have to digest it over time, but I read through both your posts and can say I appreciate your point of view on the world and torrent. Also, you totally nailed the thesis in your other comment. I know the video was a bit rambly, but I'm glad the point came through. I am heartened to hear that you found a way to engage with the world that suits your play style! That gives me hope that maybe my perspective will shift as well. Like I said, I love the *content* but haven't quite clicked with how you get to said content. But maybe there's hope! In fact, I am a few hours further than where I was when I recorded this, and I discovered a new chunk of the open world that actively prohibits you from using Torrent, and makes you play close attention to routes and sightlines, and it's been my favorite area from a mechanics POV. So who knows what else is out there! Edit: also, I will try to do some updated/final impressions once I get to that point!
I generally found myself very incentivized to actually explore the openworld in Elden Ring which is honestly fairly rare for me with these kinds of game. I really liked that my wandering around would get me new spells or weapons. The crafting also played a factor into it. I played a build that made very heavy use of crafting so I was always really excited to see what areas I could get specific kinds of ingredients. I do really wish that were more puzzles in the openworld segment of the game, but for me at least the openworld actually made me want to wander around for once. I will admit that I generally prefer their tighter crafted dungeons and were my dreams to come true they'd go back to making King's Field or Shadow Tower type dungeon crawls. That's kind of a gripe I have with a lot of the push for openworld games, really. I enjoy restrictions and tight level design and things like that and extrinsic reward is what keeps me most engaged with games. A lot of the time with a big world to explore I am left going "Why would I want to?" There are games that give me reasons I find compelling but a lot of the time I just get really bored. Which I find interesting since when I think about what the main appeal of DRPGs for me is is the exploration bit. I like exploring. I guess I just don't find "Walk freely around the wilds" exploring. Or at least not a sort I care about very much.
I think this is the thesis of the video: "ER doesn't do anything in the open world to make me feel engaged with it beyond just looking really nice and having a few hidden items." I'm 60 hours in, have only played From's games from Demon's forward. I felt similarly to you earlier on (say first 20 hours or so). That you can flee from overworld encounters and even bosses left a feeling of distaste in my mouth. Then, something clicked and I understood how I was appreciating the open world. The open world and map do a great job of inviting you to pockets of the intricate level design we love from From. I started to see the overworld as like an escalator for my eyes to identify distinct areas of level design. Of course I would have loved for the overworld to have more of this element in and of itself (e.g. BotW's climbing mechanic does a wonderful job of grounding you in its space). I hear you when you say you'd like the world to be more tactile, when really it's just a runway to different little areas. I would have driven myself crazy if I kept up my early habits of circling every building for secrets, or collecting items, as like you, I seldom craft at all. In sum, I think I found how to better engage with the open world to suit my own taste. I've lost the amount of times I've said to myself, "oh shit I remember when I was down there/under there/across there/etc" Hope this helps you ruminate your feelings toward the open world. I have my own beefs with the game that aren't mentioned here but would like to hear your updated thoughts once you double or triple your playtime. I know I've seen my thoughts change and morph the longer I play and reflect on my experience. (e.g. I wish we could work toward crafting weapons, I wish the fast travel wasn't always present (it isn't during some areas) make me earn it, thereby making shortcuts more meaningful in certain areas)
I’m pretty new to the world of souls games. I tried Dark Souls 2 when it arrived on 360 and though in many ways I got it and loved the aesthetic the punishing nature got the better of me after a few hours. Elden Ring has really grabbed my attention, and held it. I do like the rhythm of the game loop where you find a really overly challenging section which spurs you to go and explore to level up. I am with you on the way the crafting doesn’t seem be fully integrated, I haven’t really used it much in the whole time I’ve been playing. New to your channel so came across this and had to watch it.
I came into Elden Ring after being a bit disillusioned with FROM (I've tried and failed to get into Bloodbourne and Sekiro despite multiple attempts.) When I discovered Dark Souls 1 (and by extension DeS) it was like a breath of fresh air in an atmosphere that was heralding titles and game designs paradigms that I just, didn't gel with. It was hugely influential too, spawning a subgenre of adventure/action games much like Castlevania SOTN did with the Metroidvania genre. What came after felt like too much of the same. For whatever reason Elden Ring managed to snap that feeling and I'm having wonderful fun. Though I absolutely agree about the game barely if at all justifying it's Open World. I often find myself zooming around and just looking for a cave entrance or ruin to actually engage myself in. It does give the game a good "Podcast Game" pacing I guess. Like I'm listening to this while running around the field. Then I struggle to adjust my mindset when I'm in a dungeon and I get absolutely bodied by the mobs. Usually FROM games demand my attention at almost all times, so it's a strange pacing.
Thanks for this video. It's made it very enjoyable to ruminate over my feelings about ER, particularly what could be done better. Here are some more fresh thoughts: some ideas that would add more identity to the open world: -inflict status effects on the player that necessitates engagement with the resources provided by the ecosystem. e.g. have a mild but omnipresent poison meter in Caelida so the player is incentivized to gather flora and fauna to craft potions. perhaps a cold zone would require warmer clothing. make the player think differently about their tools, their attire. Go beyond what we've seen before, beyond just either fashion souls or damage reduction. -introduce overworld shortcuts. perhaps you'd have to navigate a treacherous area filled with enemies that made traversal a pain (e.g. Ano Londo archers). The reward for getting through it would be a neat shortcut lift so the player won't have to fight that battle again after respawn -I love the idea of an evolving overworld and there's one beautiful moment of this in Limgrave that I won't spoil. Perhaps have unique effects occur after defeating the boss who has dominion over an area. Find ways to have the player re-engage with spaces they've already traversed. Again, this is WONDERFULLY done in Limgrave after a certain trigger
Elden Ring's combat is the best Souls has ever been (not including Bloodborne and Sekiro) and Stormveil Castle is one of their best level designs. But other than that, they cram the open world in just for the sake of it, as you allude to, and then literally fill it with copy and pasted content. The main bosses are the only things not duplicated across the entire game and, not coincidentally, have the good movesets. Not only would focusing on smaller areas be demonstrably better in level design but the current open world actively works against and contradicts itself. If you so much as step out of their intended path, then you're either forced back to a different area despite being open (defeats the entire purpose), or you accidentally overlevel because of RPG scaling systems and so the rest of the game is dirt easy. It's one of the worst examples of open worlds I've seen in a while, and I'm not talking about visuals here, but the actual design. I'm gonna go in-depth on everything in the future but even on the surface level, the quality difference between the open world and legacy dungeons really speaks for itself. Good video btw :)
This game was just astonishing to me. I love all the souls games and it was a huge culmination of everything they have done. I agree on all points here. But elden ring hit everything i needed it to be. This is such a good video:)
I haven't played yet, but I did want to say that a lot of open world games seem to suffer because of their focus on size. Cyberpunk 2077 filled itself with so, so many NCPD murder holes (and I liked the combat in that game) and Starfield could have been so much better if there was more handmade content. The best parts of the game by far are handmade haunted ships and the derelict with the gravity switching on and off. I like what the designer of Deus Ex said about his perfect game, one fully realized city block. I have forgiven many, many games for not having enough to them because they were so good; but I have come to be almost hateful at the amount of "extra" in many games that I originally loved.
A lot of nads to make a video with these concerns, I've felt like the open world isn't justified either. When Elden Ring came out I played it for 10 hours and just got really bored. Went back and replayed Bloodborne to completion, Demons Souls for the very first time to completion, Dark Souls 1 again to completion and I just feel like Elden Ring is missing what these other games were better at and that really has to do with the linear design. I personally don't think open world will ever beat linear games because you can't have small details stand out it's all gotta be broad so things get glanced over by designers. I hope Miyazaki doesn't continue to do open world but if he wants to maybe don't let it be a Souls game maybe it should be something more RPG heavy, new IP, new perspective.
Limgrave and adjacent to it zones felt magical the first time through. Starting as naked class helped me too - i got boddied by literally everything in 2-3 hits, keeping the engagement going. By the capital the open world got tiring a bit and i phased out to play MGR and Sekiro. Don't really get why people like the underground - it's like a normal overworld, but things are even more spaced with nothing inbetween.
Elden Ring was such a conflicting game for me… and I think that this video really helped me understand why I didnt enjoy the game as much as I thought I would. The combat and enemy variety was great but exploring scenic vistas and painting-like locations didn’t seem to have much value other than looking nice. I’ve never felt so conflicted on a game before. The open world was vast and incredible, but the most amount of interaction seemed to come purely from combat… and it felt like a waste of potential for me.
I still like the game a lot. But I definitely felt that weird disconnect between the open-world and the creative dungeon-level design.
Great video! It really helped me formulate my thoughts on the game.
0:24 ugh..... it hurts me I can't play right now seeing that Howl's Moving Bell Turtle thing 😩
What if I told you...
... there's more than one.
Really enjoyed this. What I love about this game is that I totally agree with these criticisms and even as I'm hearing you say these things, my only thought is, I can't wait to get back to playing it.
I do love that in this game that areas aren't gated behind bosses. I like having the option of exploring and then returning to a boss later with different gear or strategies.
100% agreed. It's so engrossing. For all my criticisms I bring up, I still think it's one of the best games ever made and can't put it down
Great to hear your thoughts. You made me think about the gameplay in the open world - I did notice that the horse's controls are insanely smooth and lacks any kind of weightiness to it. It almost feels like the open world is just a completely no-pressure environment where the challenge of the game is lifted off the player. Then, you go into a dungeon or main story area and it turns back into Dark Souls.
Totally. And the no-pressure, chill exploration is awesome! I'm totally cool with that ebb and flow of difficulty. It's hard to express, but I guess I wanted to think and interact a bit more during the exploration. BotW's climbing and Death Stranding's traversal are extreme examples, and I don't mean to say that From should've ripped those ideas off per se, but I'm just kinda surprised (and disappointed) something similar isn't in Elden Ring.
Thanks for watching, tho, duder! If you ever decide to do a video on your own thoughts, too, I would love to see that (no pressure, obvs).
@@TheCrawl I totally get what you mean I think. The open section of the world is beautiful and definitely has a lot of variety, secrets, NPCs, etc to discover - but there's 0 urgency or tension to the gameplay. You're just zooming around on your horse like a madman. Death Stranding & BOTW are definitely good examples - the climbing, gliding, choosing the best path for traversal are all a great element of tension & choice in those games.
I would like to make a video on this game. I've been having trouble grasping the motivation to work on my channel for a while now, but I'm hoping to get back into it soon.
I feel the same and i am a huge souls 1 fan
Okay, double-commenting here but:
Fantastic critique of open world design philosophy. I am really curious to see how the world portion hits me. Dark Souls 1 is my favorite of the series having played DeS (ps3), DaS2 SotFS (360 & XB1), and DaS3 (XB1) as well. For me, I'll never know if I'll like an open world or not until I play it. There seems to be no consistent criteria. I find The Witcher IIs world to be quite boring and when "exploring" I was just looking at the minimap half the time. But on the other hand the almost completely empty Great Sea in Wind Waker to add a lot to the game and serve as a really satisfying space for me.
The Arceus comparison is also a good one though. Engagement and purpose. I also like that I can tell you still really enjoy the game despite the critiques. It's okay to critique the games you love just like it's okay to defend them.
Thanks, duder! I did my best to convey my issues in a way that sounded more constructive than damning, so I'm glad it struck you that way. I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on this once you play it! I'm also a Dark Souls 1 die-hard, and a fan of wind waker's "empty" Great Sea, but who knows--we may end up with different opinions on the open world in ER. This game is so unique in the genre, it's honestly hard to explain things even after 20+ hours with it.
Since it's been a year now, and this is the first time I've actually seen this so I've completed the game fairly thoroughly and spoiled a few things I didn't manage to find, what point had you reached by the time you made this video? Did your opinion change later on?
About... somewhere in the middle I was getting fatigue, running into similar boss enemies, finding yet another mine or whatever that fit too close a pattern to ones I'd happened upon already, I'd reached a point of near exhaustion despite the generosity of the places and creatures. One thing I actually enjoyed in contrast to what you're saying is the ability to judiciously retreat if I wanted to try something else, and I also found that Torrent changed how I interacted with the environment (especially when I tried a no Torrent run later). But at one point approaching maybe 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through, the caves etc got very clever, the challenges ramped up in unexpected ways, some interesting places became accessible, and some characters' stories progressed, and I found I was back into it again. I've rarely played a game like that where my thoughts went up and down, but it's a long enough game that there were likely going to be some pacing and perception differences. My first Souls is still where my heart is but my over all impression of this was higher in many categories, and I'm not sure if my enjoyment would have increased if it'd just been shorter, I guess I needed a bit of space to see the patterns and then have them subverted.
I do agree that the modes of interaction could have been a bit broadened. The combat had nice texture but in most games now I tend to want to do more than just slaughter stuff. I guess one thing I thought there would be more of would be the strange and uncanny stuff like the mausoleums. There are some interesting surreal architecture and situations but I expected a bit more
A lot of what you said resonates with me and my experience, actually. To answer your questions: If I remember correctly, I had just reached Leyndell when I made this video, after beating Godrick, Rennala, and Radhan, and doing tons of side stuff elsewhere. So roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the game.
Funnily enough, the back half of the game is actually where I started loving it. Mt Gelmnir, Leyndell, Farum Azula, the Haligtree, and the underground sections all felt more like the classic From experience I was missing from a lot of the early hours, and the last few open world sections when you’re in the land of the giants were more interesting to me since they were denser and I felt like the stuff there was more interesting and more challenging.
I kinda talk about some of this in my GotY 2022 video as well, but not as in-depth. Then after that video I actually ended up doing a NG+ run early this year and found it a lot more enjoyable, since I could rush through the early areas I wasn’t as fond of, which ironically made me like them a bit more.
I still have some gripes and nitpicks, and I would rank a few other From games higher on my personal list, but I also love the game now.
@@TheCrawl Thanks for your thoughts! Yeah, I couldn't quite justify a second run right away so I shelved it but if I'd tried it again I would know what items I really want to get without worrying about spoiling myself when using reminders (the beast repellent torch is my single favorite item in the whole game, I used it a lot). I'd also probably skip a lot of the caves and such, maybe part of my mid game disappointment was me hoping for more than an Ash or an item that might not suit me atfter fighting a too-familiar boss, back when the smaller dungeons were fairly straightforward. Toward the end they were super tricky and I was really happy they "went there" with some of their tricks. The bigger places like the Haligtree and Farum Azula were awesome in both senses of the word. Also I think I connected with the NPC stories way more than in prior Souls games, some of them really got to me in a good way.
Separate post, after your invitation to share thoughts. I'm 60ish hours in, 3 demigods down. I like to take my time and explore thoroughly. I don't go out of my way (anymore) to collect items for the sake of crafting, and I largely skip overworld trash mobs.
Here's a rough copy paste from the forum I frequent:
Elden Ring is FromSoftware's truly epic odyssey. In giving the player so much freedom to roam where they please, the player never knows if they are truly overlevered or underpowered. This can lead to a scenario where you lose all of your xp b/c you may find yourself locked in a room against an indomitable boss encounter (e.g. Centipede Bull). All boss encounters found in the overworld can be withdrawn from. One thing I've felt in the latter half of my playthrough is just how overpowered I've become. Now, this is my 7th FromSoftware experience since Demon's Souls, so my play is influenced from those experiences. That said, I am happy to report that the game still has plenty of content in the endgame that has provided me with ample challenge. Here are a slew of random thoughts that I identify as this game's strengths and weaknesses:
-the map does a great job of planting seeds in your mind for exploration. there's enough detail that you can make out structures, cave entrances, larger dungeons, and so forth
-traversing the open world feels great, particularly b/c your horse (Torrent) doesn't get in the way of your fun much at all. Torrent doesn't buckle against the environment, you can double jump whenever you want to, and you mount/dismount at zero speed, while walking, or even running
-mounted combat HAS grown on me, I find it especially fun NOW that I learned you can swing with either hand (it took me until the 30 hour mark to learn I didn't have to always just swing with the right hand). I particularly love using the flai, as it has a very fun wind up animation, I can't speak for other weapon types. At first I found it clunky, but I learned I just had to get the timing down to truly find the fun of it
-switching weapons and toggling two handed is clunkier than before
-Jumping: frustrating when the game calls for platforming, as some jumps require you to get a running start and sometimes you won't have much surface area to do so confidently (e.g. in caves). That said, seldom does the game require to make use of on-foot jumping. I do like the new combat possibilities it adds though, doing jumping smash attacks can be very fun, especially when leaping off horseback to start an engagement, truly wonderful stuff
-boss fights that aren't given the traditional VIP treatment with their own cutscenses and music feel much like the "filler" bosses from Dark Souls 2. Often they are unceremoniously introduces and BAM the action starts. I've seen some boss recycling (mainly b/c the game has so many mini-dungeons (caves) that remind me of the Chalice Dungeons from Bloodborne. Some layouts are repeated, but each has their own unique encounter design. And in usual From tradition, some bosses show up in the overworld as regular encounters later on
-the VIP bosses have been as spectacular as what we've seen in the past. The game suggests there are 5 demigods, I've only defeated 3 thus far (60+ hours in). The arenas are unique and wonderful, the enemy design totally killer
-I loved that the game had me keep a notepad to take down notes, as you meet many NPCs who ask favors of you. Also, it's very easy to set forth toward destination A, when all of the sudden you see something else and decide to change your plans. I have several notes reminding me to go back to destination A and C when I got sidetracked by destination B, oh and don't forget to check out destination D that we've mentally bookmarked
-I was disappointed to learn that the crafting only extends to consummables. I was hoping we would be able to craft unique/legendary weapons and armor. As it is, you can only trade in great souls for items, or purchase unique equipment worn by bosses from a special merchant after besting them. How cool would it have been to find schematics for weapons and be able to work toward them?
-Item upgrading: progression has felt organic, I think much of my success is due to the fact that I focus on few items to ensure my damage output is conisstent and strong. Progression here is logical, easy to understand, and even covneinet to farm for if you're into upgrading multiple weapons at once.
-multiplayer: I was never a big fan of the multiplayer element, and it feels even less present in this experience, especially so with the new summon system. Unlike the previous games where I was given the option of summoning an NPC for a boss, here you collect summoning archetypes (pokemon) that you can summon in certain open world sections and in most boss fights. Thankfully, I've never felt like they're so strong that they can render an encounter obsolete, but I did find them to be very helpful to distract the bosses, especially when you're pitted against one that has minions, or if you're in an Ornstein and Smough situation. I actually had an awesome experience last night where my Nomadic Archer summon saved my ass in dramatic fashion as his off-screen arrow distracted the boss in the nick of time for me to deliver the killing blow
-lore/note-taking: keeping track of NPCs and their favors is all on you. You'll find items in the overworld either at their request, or after you've even met them. I've had both happen in my experience. And don't sweat it, you're likely to miss NPC story beats on your first playthrough, sometimes b/c of typical From vagueness, and sometimes b/c the NPCs can be easily missed when they're just standing about in the overworld. Thankfully often times they're near named locations on the map or near checkpoints, I don't think I've ever encountered and NPC who isn't near some landmark or marker. Still, there have been moments where I could have easily had the camera pointed some OTHER way and completely miss their being there (I especially like where the Millicent questline is heading, no idea what the payoff will be)
final thought from my play session today 3/3:
-Super happy to say that the end-game content is still keeping me on my toes. By no means do I feel overpowered or like I'm stomping my way through as I was when "cleaning" up the map BEFORE hitting the Capital. In my mind, the capital = endgame, I've yet to see if this is still true, but at this point I feel like my character's level pretty much equates to end-game levels. The level design of the Capital is EXACTLY what I was craving but did not receive when DS3 teased the Ringed City. I feel like the Capital feels like its own Yharnam. It is huge, varied, and a wonderful take on a dedicated "kingdom."
Wow, thank you for commenting! There's a lot here, so I will have to digest it over time, but I read through both your posts and can say I appreciate your point of view on the world and torrent. Also, you totally nailed the thesis in your other comment. I know the video was a bit rambly, but I'm glad the point came through.
I am heartened to hear that you found a way to engage with the world that suits your play style! That gives me hope that maybe my perspective will shift as well. Like I said, I love the *content* but haven't quite clicked with how you get to said content.
But maybe there's hope!
In fact, I am a few hours further than where I was when I recorded this, and I discovered a new chunk of the open world that actively prohibits you from using Torrent, and makes you play close attention to routes and sightlines, and it's been my favorite area from a mechanics POV. So who knows what else is out there!
Edit: also, I will try to do some updated/final impressions once I get to that point!
I generally found myself very incentivized to actually explore the openworld in Elden Ring which is honestly fairly rare for me with these kinds of game. I really liked that my wandering around would get me new spells or weapons. The crafting also played a factor into it. I played a build that made very heavy use of crafting so I was always really excited to see what areas I could get specific kinds of ingredients. I do really wish that were more puzzles in the openworld segment of the game, but for me at least the openworld actually made me want to wander around for once.
I will admit that I generally prefer their tighter crafted dungeons and were my dreams to come true they'd go back to making King's Field or Shadow Tower type dungeon crawls. That's kind of a gripe I have with a lot of the push for openworld games, really. I enjoy restrictions and tight level design and things like that and extrinsic reward is what keeps me most engaged with games. A lot of the time with a big world to explore I am left going "Why would I want to?" There are games that give me reasons I find compelling but a lot of the time I just get really bored.
Which I find interesting since when I think about what the main appeal of DRPGs for me is is the exploration bit. I like exploring. I guess I just don't find "Walk freely around the wilds" exploring. Or at least not a sort I care about very much.
I think this is the thesis of the video: "ER doesn't do anything in the open world to make me feel engaged with it beyond just looking really nice and having a few hidden items."
I'm 60 hours in, have only played From's games from Demon's forward. I felt similarly to you earlier on (say first 20 hours or so). That you can flee from overworld encounters and even bosses left a feeling of distaste in my mouth. Then, something clicked and I understood how I was appreciating the open world. The open world and map do a great job of inviting you to pockets of the intricate level design we love from From. I started to see the overworld as like an escalator for my eyes to identify distinct areas of level design. Of course I would have loved for the overworld to have more of this element in and of itself (e.g. BotW's climbing mechanic does a wonderful job of grounding you in its space). I hear you when you say you'd like the world to be more tactile, when really it's just a runway to different little areas. I would have driven myself crazy if I kept up my early habits of circling every building for secrets, or collecting items, as like you, I seldom craft at all. In sum, I think I found how to better engage with the open world to suit my own taste. I've lost the amount of times I've said to myself, "oh shit I remember when I was down there/under there/across there/etc"
Hope this helps you ruminate your feelings toward the open world. I have my own beefs with the game that aren't mentioned here but would like to hear your updated thoughts once you double or triple your playtime. I know I've seen my thoughts change and morph the longer I play and reflect on my experience.
(e.g. I wish we could work toward crafting weapons, I wish the fast travel wasn't always present (it isn't during some areas) make me earn it, thereby making shortcuts more meaningful in certain areas)
I’m pretty new to the world of souls games. I tried Dark Souls 2 when it arrived on 360 and though in many ways I got it and loved the aesthetic the punishing nature got the better of me after a few hours. Elden Ring has really grabbed my attention, and held it. I do like the rhythm of the game loop where you find a really overly challenging section which spurs you to go and explore to level up. I am with you on the way the crafting doesn’t seem be fully integrated, I haven’t really used it much in the whole time I’ve been playing. New to your channel so came across this and had to watch it.
I came into Elden Ring after being a bit disillusioned with FROM (I've tried and failed to get into Bloodbourne and Sekiro despite multiple attempts.) When I discovered Dark Souls 1 (and by extension DeS) it was like a breath of fresh air in an atmosphere that was heralding titles and game designs paradigms that I just, didn't gel with. It was hugely influential too, spawning a subgenre of adventure/action games much like Castlevania SOTN did with the Metroidvania genre. What came after felt like too much of the same.
For whatever reason Elden Ring managed to snap that feeling and I'm having wonderful fun. Though I absolutely agree about the game barely if at all justifying it's Open World. I often find myself zooming around and just looking for a cave entrance or ruin to actually engage myself in. It does give the game a good "Podcast Game" pacing I guess. Like I'm listening to this while running around the field. Then I struggle to adjust my mindset when I'm in a dungeon and I get absolutely bodied by the mobs. Usually FROM games demand my attention at almost all times, so it's a strange pacing.
Yeah, exactly! This echoes my experience perfectly. Glad I'm not alone!
Thanks for this video. It's made it very enjoyable to ruminate over my feelings about ER, particularly what could be done better. Here are some more fresh thoughts:
some ideas that would add more identity to the open world:
-inflict status effects on the player that necessitates engagement with the resources provided by the ecosystem. e.g. have a mild but omnipresent poison meter in Caelida so the player is incentivized to gather flora and fauna to craft potions. perhaps a cold zone would require warmer clothing. make the player think differently about their tools, their attire. Go beyond what we've seen before, beyond just either fashion souls or damage reduction.
-introduce overworld shortcuts. perhaps you'd have to navigate a treacherous area filled with enemies that made traversal a pain (e.g. Ano Londo archers). The reward for getting through it would be a neat shortcut lift so the player won't have to fight that battle again after respawn
-I love the idea of an evolving overworld and there's one beautiful moment of this in Limgrave that I won't spoil. Perhaps have unique effects occur after defeating the boss who has dominion over an area. Find ways to have the player re-engage with spaces they've already traversed. Again, this is WONDERFULLY done in Limgrave after a certain trigger
The level design is the weakest in the Souls series, the Open World compromises the whole thing.
Elden Ring's combat is the best Souls has ever been (not including Bloodborne and Sekiro) and Stormveil Castle is one of their best level designs. But other than that, they cram the open world in just for the sake of it, as you allude to, and then literally fill it with copy and pasted content. The main bosses are the only things not duplicated across the entire game and, not coincidentally, have the good movesets. Not only would focusing on smaller areas be demonstrably better in level design but the current open world actively works against and contradicts itself. If you so much as step out of their intended path, then you're either forced back to a different area despite being open (defeats the entire purpose), or you accidentally overlevel because of RPG scaling systems and so the rest of the game is dirt easy. It's one of the worst examples of open worlds I've seen in a while, and I'm not talking about visuals here, but the actual design. I'm gonna go in-depth on everything in the future but even on the surface level, the quality difference between the open world and legacy dungeons really speaks for itself.
Good video btw :)
I think the sleep element that it looks like was initially intended and cut would have helped with your concerns re the open world.
This game was just astonishing to me. I love all the souls games and it was a huge culmination of everything they have done. I agree on all points here. But elden ring hit everything i needed it to be. This is such a good video:)
I haven't played yet, but I did want to say that a lot of open world games seem to suffer because of their focus on size. Cyberpunk 2077 filled itself with so, so many NCPD murder holes (and I liked the combat in that game) and Starfield could have been so much better if there was more handmade content. The best parts of the game by far are handmade haunted ships and the derelict with the gravity switching on and off.
I like what the designer of Deus Ex said about his perfect game, one fully realized city block. I have forgiven many, many games for not having enough to them because they were so good; but I have come to be almost hateful at the amount of "extra" in many games that I originally loved.
A lot of nads to make a video with these concerns, I've felt like the open world isn't justified either. When Elden Ring came out I played it for 10 hours and just got really bored. Went back and replayed Bloodborne to completion, Demons Souls for the very first time to completion, Dark Souls 1 again to completion and I just feel like Elden Ring is missing what these other games were better at and that really has to do with the linear design. I personally don't think open world will ever beat linear games because you can't have small details stand out it's all gotta be broad so things get glanced over by designers. I hope Miyazaki doesn't continue to do open world but if he wants to maybe don't let it be a Souls game maybe it should be something more RPG heavy, new IP, new perspective.
Very underrated critique of this game.
Limgrave and adjacent to it zones felt magical the first time through. Starting as naked class helped me too - i got boddied by literally everything in 2-3 hits, keeping the engagement going.
By the capital the open world got tiring a bit and i phased out to play MGR and Sekiro. Don't really get why people like the underground - it's like a normal overworld, but things are even more spaced with nothing inbetween.
Man you really need a lot of words to say "The open world is boring give me some monsters to slay"
hah, that's fair
I havent played any Dark Souls. Not sure if I would like this game since I still prefer stage progression.
You should check out Demon's Souls, then!
@@TheCrawl got pc?