Hey, I got the grave point and the graffiti point, and she got the exclamation point above the head, but then she started saying the normal things she normally says when I clicked on her. Is this a bug?
@@loganwhitlock9780 Not sure exactly what happened, there. There were no changes to the Parent Points script in Patch 7, but all three points are coded in different, somewhat weird, ways.
There used to be an exploit where you could kill Karlach, trigger the cutscene with Wyll at camp, and resurrect Karlach so you'd get the best of both worlds. I found it funny because it was so in-character to find a loophole in a warlock's pact.
I think it’s her default decision, she doesn’t know anything else until that creates point Unfortunately the room with the Night orchids was bugged even with patch 6. It didn’t trigger any reaction. I hope they fixed it by now The noblestalk you can give it to her, and another to Derith. TH-cam is full of videos about that :D
@@UsuallyDestroyer In my game it glitched despite having it in my inventory. I fed it to Shadowheart first, then gave it to the trader THEN gave it to the bald man. I wonder what'll happen at ACT 3. Will they have noblestalks? Will they separate? Who knows!
lol the "strap in" with the giant list of different stuff I paused and was like holy shit looking it all over amazed at how many areas there were. then unpause "just kidding".
It seems like having high Nightsong Points causing her to kill her parents may be intended, since sparing them causes Shar’s curse to last forever. A true Selunite Shadowheart understands that it’s a necessary sacrifice to truly break Shar away from her and her parents forever, placing them in Selune’s embrace. It’s bittersweet, but a much happier ending in the long term, she’ll see her parents again when the curtain calls, and won’t need to live with Shar’s pain up to that point.
I was under the impression that if Shadowheart saved her parents she'd ALWAYS belong to Shar, even in death. Which makes the decision more balanced, I think.
@@crypt1k755 I think somewhere it makes sense. On the one hand, it's absolutely in character for Shar to create that situation. On the other, many who turn to Shar are those who can't truly accept the loss they endured and the pain it still causes them. Shar 'helps' them by taking away the pain of the loss, whether that's through forgetting said loss (as in the House of Grief) or growing numb to it (which will in turn take away both its meaning and the meaning of everything else, as part of getting them to believe in her cause to return everything to nothingness). So it makes sense that if she refuses to accept the loss and the pain thereof she remains in Shar's grasp, and that to overcome the hold of the Lady of Loss has on her she needs to accept and endure the pain of loss, and overcome it. Not to avoid it, not to grow numb to it, not to forget it, but to feel it and overcome it.
It's mindblowing how layered Shadowheart's arc is. You got the approval, the "Nightsong Points" and then the "Parents Points". On my first playthrough the dialogue about the city smells happened right after seeing the grafitti. But it's very weird. I had her approval maxed, got her to spare the Nightsong on her own and found all those Parents Points triggers, but she _still_ chose to sacrifice her parents at the end if you let her choose. It's so complicated, lmao. Personally I think that, while bittersweet, her letting her parents go is the "right" choice since it's what any parent would do: sacrifice themselves for the sake of their child; but this is very debatable. Awesome content as always!
One of my most favourite moments through the 30 or so playthoughs was when sharran shadowheart saved her parents by herself. I havent managed to repeat that since. Thanks for the explanation. It is super interesting because the extra NOT could be both a feature and a bug :D Thanks.
In my last play through i had to convince her not to kill her parents. The dialogue in the Or hid room was bugged for me. But knowing of that hidden graphity will help a lot ^^ I think it’s n intention done by the developers. If you want her to become Dark Justicicar, ahe will have to sacrifice her parents to Shar. If you want her to convert to Selune, well,… i feel the devs could have done better. Still Shar is also a godess of Forgetting, so keeping them alive despite the curse is more a decision that favors Selune. In my eyes at least
Isnt Shar straight up says that this is a lose-lose choice. Either sac parents and get rid of me, or save them and i stay. Am i imagining that? So for me this last confusing part about flags interaction seems very intentional and only mistake could be that Devs forgot to edit these checks for the sharran shadowheart.
That’s based on what Shar and her emotionally defeated dad say. More like a lose nothing or lose a lot situation with keeping or tossing away the parents.
From what I understand, if she kills her parents and sends them to Selune as moon motes she and her parents will be free from Shar's influence, and she won't suffer the Sharran wound every day for the rest of her life. if she saves them, then she continues to feel the pain for other est of her life. I also heard something about the wound dulling her emotions but I don't know where they got that from.
Shar presents it as a lose lose situation because she wants to gloat about winning even when shadowheart has defied her. But in reality saying “your curse is not really that big of a deal to me, and I won’t kill my parents and live with that loss to get rid of it. Well live happily for the rest of our lives despite your constant efforts otherwise” is a pretty big fuck you to shar. She’s screaming in rage and shadowheart is just living her best life on a farm with her parents and possibly a love interest, just occasionally getting a few moments of shooting pain. This turns it into a lose lose for shar. She can either keep torturing shadowheart after shadowheart has already shown it isn’t that big a deal, and be seen as petty and weak since she’s still trying to hurt shadowheart with a minor inconvenience, or she can stop torturing shadowheart and both admit and show defeat. There’s no way for her to come out of that story path looking like she’s won
Thanks. Definitely don’t want to mess this up. The quality of life her parents would have, especially her mother, it honestly feels like mercy to let them go. Especially since they plead with her to do so
@@galenibble Oh! Also, is there points for wether he even wants to do the ritual? Or is it only approval? I could easily convince him as a lover, but I saw the scene in my friends game who COULD not convince him to not do it. So it was do the ritual or lose him
@@colorfulsomething5008 if you let him talk with Cazador alone and stay somewhere in the ballroom upstairs, for example, he won't be able to do the ritual. And no repercussions for the player. He wants to do the ritual anyway: it's the whole point of this part of his journey, to be almost consumed by rage and despair in this critical moment.
@@galenibble I'm pretty sure if he's alone he always saves them, because he can't complete the ritual without help. It's like throwing the night spear into the abyss to keep Shadowheart from using it.
Can confirm ! My Shart ate the noblestalk (but bugged) and started the trials, I believe I got 3 Nightsong points total (cause bugs), but I got the 3 Parent points. I let her choose and she saved her parents.
My girl really is the most overworked one out of the rest)) Thanks for the detailed explanation! It's funny how in my first playthrough I didn't get enough Nighsong points but enough Parent Points, so when my Tav said, "You know the right thing to do," she saved her parents. Truly, it's bizarre to know how all worked out within the code, so I had little to no bags at all in regard to Shadowheart's quest. I can't say which ending for her is the best (from the lore perspective, it's open to interpretation to say the least, especially considering the epilogue party and how Shar, it seems, harm less her wound). Both have their ups and downs, but I think I prefer saving parents. In the end, my Tav would support Shadowheart's choice, no matter what she chose.
Thanks so much for this video!! You've yet again solved a mystery that had me baffled, it seems I be getting too many nightsong points for her to spare her parents when it is left up to her. The complexity of these scoring systems is fascinating, even if some things don't make sense or are potentially bugged.
Yeah, I'm really not sure what they were thinking with that seemingly counterintuitive restriction on Nightsong Points, but at least knowing about it means you can decide which events and options you want to go for.
It might be a dev mistake to put the AND NOT there but it also might be intentional. Her parents are what keeps her away from faith in the Shar path and the abandon Shar path. With her parents gone she either becomes Shar's chosen or a travelling Selunite in the epilogue. If her parents are around she will move into a small cottage with them and she won't even mention her faith. Which outcome you prefer depends on your opinion on the gods in general and not on solely morality.
Fantastic and informative video. Been reading through everyone’s takes on the subject, whether the nightsong part of it is a bug or not, and I’m of two minds. On the one hand, the argument could be made that in order to fully devote herself to Selûne, Shadowheart has to rid herself of any sharran influence (in this case the “incurable” wound). This is in my head, is a justification from a purely religious standpoint. I'll go into more depth on this in a bit. From a gameplay perspective, this sort of seems like a bug. What are the Nightsong points really? They're points that indicate Shar losing her grip on Shadowheart, whether it be through her remembering her past or the player’s influence, resulting in her “spurning the Dark Lady”, as Nightsong herself puts it. Parent points, in this light, are just are a second set of memories/triggers used to see whether or not Shadowheart sacrifices not just her parents, but her past. When not enough parent points are obtained, from her perspective, she’s really sacrificing the “idea” of her past, represented in the form of her parents - the last direct link. However, the more she remembers of her past, the more inclined she is to save it. Which choice is right? Like many have said, it’s perspective. Her parents are willing to sacrifice themselves to rid their daughter of her physical pain. This is the noble and “what you'd expect a parent would say” answer. Analyzing the situation more closely, you realize it’s more complicated than that. Shar is really forcing Shadowheart to substitute the physical pain of the wound with emotional pain. It’s not simply grief, it’s guilt. It’s the idea that she could have saved her family and chose not to, making her in some way, complicit in their deaths. This is why Shar doesn't just kill Shadowheart’s parents herself. She wants to continue manipulating Shadowheart in either outcome. Shadowheart confirms this herself by stating Shar is hoping the insurmountable emotional pain will force her back into her embrace. Its the reason Shar actually restores many of Shadowheart’s horrible memories. In this sense, no ending really rids Shadowheart of Shar completely. Like many have stated, it’s a lose-lose. It strikes me as odd that the devs would intend for high nightsong points to cancel out the parent points. If you turn Shadowheart away from Shar sooner, why should that result in her sacrificing her parent? Shadowheart has no knowledge of her parents while you're gaining nightsong points. The two don't seem to have any correlation, except if you look at it from a religious standpoint. Gaining more nightsong points means you’re pushing Shadowheart closer to fully embracing Selûne, with her first act being saving Selûne’s daughter. Given Selûne’s nature of valuing life and family, it seems counterintuitive that gaining favor with her would result in Shadowheart feeling she has to sacrifice her own parents, unless Ketheric Thorm was right. Ketheric states that when his wife - and later his daughter - died, Selûne did nothing about it, despite them being faithful servants. He states that they're all just pawns of the gods. “Pieces to be moved around,” I think he says. If Selûne is really so petty as to not wholly welcome Shadowheart because she still has her rival sister’s curse, to me makes me question whether Selûne is even worth following. Lorewise, I don't think this accurately portrays the Moonmaiden, but that's what the effect the nightsong points end up having in regards to the parent situation.
From what I have seen so far, no other character is as complex as Shadowheart, at least not with this sort of "scoring" system. Of course, there are many different flags that get set and checked based on your actions that affect the companion interactions.
I’ve done both choices with Shadowheart and her parents. I feel like her saving them is a better option. Especially as she settles down with them (and you if you romance her) and from the epilogue party and the dialogue available, Shadowheart’s wound is lessened, and she seems to deal with it pretty well. With Tav/Redeemed Durge, they have a great cottage core life together.
I'd like to mention the Shadowheart dialogue option: "I want to talk about all that's happened to us". After using this dialogue option once, she will ever after respond with "Fine, what's on your mind?" But there are actually several unique first time responses to this from early act 1, late act 1, early act 2, late act 2, early act 3, entering lower city act 3. I'd love to see a video from you exploring upon this as it's an interesting treat that might be a fault in the coding. Thanks for making these videos.
I have seen some oddly specific dialogue lines from her. For example, there actually is a way to see if you currently have 4+ Nightsong Points, but only if you specifically have between 40 and 50 approval with Shadowheart. I could take a look at the bit you're asking about, sure.
You are a godsend once again, thank you so much! It’s so interesting to learn about how the game decides what our companions will and won’t do. I wish I knew more about code because it’s such a fascinating topic to me.
@@cosmic_drone But she's also going to feel the pain of the Sharran wound for the rest of her life, and that might not be worth it when she eventually outlives her parents.
@@alexanderinoa7850 Pain is just that, pain. There are people who live with constant chronic pain that would not give up loved ones to be free of it, and that would even bear more of it for a chance to see a relative again. Bearing the curse and still being happy weakens Shar and is a big middle finger to her, and also SH reclaims her agency by not doing what Shar wants for once, which is also very important. As SH says: "She can twist the knife all she wants, I know I can survive her worst. (her punishment after freeing the nightsong). Nothing she does can sour the fact that have my family again." Her father is an 400-ish years old elf, and elves live more than 750, chances are her father will outlive her. tldr Shar is the goddess of Loss so basically: killing them > loss to avoid pain > SH still feels pain because of said loss (emotional) > Shar got what she wanted saving them > no loss to avoid pain > SH still feels pain, despite that continues to do good and is happy > Shar did not get what she wanted
@@cosmic_drone Tbf I see no world where saving them is worth it unless they explain whether or not the cruse actually lets Shar claim them or is just eternal pain.
Tbh I got her killing her parents and I thought that was just the "best" outcome, i.e the one that she really wanted. I know for a fact that I most likely missed the graveyard point but got the other two points but I also got the Nightsong points so when I let her choose she chose to kill them since I couldn't get the cutscene. However I don't exactly think that's a glitch, it might be but it's also just a really bittersweet and in character moment of Shadowheart letting go and having to deal with losing her parents in exchange for finally being free of Shar. It hurt but I don't think it was a bad ending to that plot point. Sometimes love is loss.
I think both options play well with Selûne as a goddess, just like how a Selûnite in the game can tell Shadowheart to kill the Nightsong. I think about how Selûne values self-reliance and making your own choices, that we all have changing moods and natures depending on each situation (just like Selûne does herself with the waxing and waning of Selûne the moon). "Let all on whom my light falls be welcome if they desire to be so. As the silver moon waxes and wanes, so too does all life. Trust in my radiance, and know that all love alive under my light shall know my blessing. Turn to the moon, and I will be your true guide." Great video, just like the previous one!
The fact that, "Remain silent" always leads to her killing them does make it seem like it's the proper outcome. But we'll probably never know what Larian was thinking with this particular choice (just like the odd scenario in Act 2 where you have no option to avoid killing Nightsong).
I interested in Gale God points. There has to a mechanism as to why Gale is so ready to reject Mystra in some runs, while he will willingly sacrifice himself at the end in others, to the point that dissuading him needs a skillcheck
I'm'a already workin' on it. And yeah, there are multiple opportunities to push him in one direction of the other, particularly if you are in a romance with him.
In my latest evil Dark Urge playthrough, i had full evil SH, killed the Nightsong, helped destroy the grove and last Last Light Inn, you name it. I did catch the 3 memory dialogues for her and by default she wanted to save her parents. But being evil i insisted she kill them. By default she would save them. I didn't do the night cave until after the parents. But the smells of the city did occur right after the graveyard. I didn't do the mushroom with her.
Now I'd like to know why in my playthrough she killed her parents, but at the reunion party she said that her father takes care of the animals back home while we're away (or something similar, but clearly stating that her father is alive).
I personally think that sending them to selune is the best choice as by keeping them alive your only prolonging both theirs and Shadowheart's misery as the choice is sending them to the heavens or keep Shadowheart's pain
Awesome!! I had subscriber notifications on for this lol, thanks for the great breakdown! You finally solved the great mystery of that bugged conversation not happening.
A lot of people in the comments are saying that saving shadowhearts parents makes her happier. While I think its a perspective that is worth debate, the one thing that makes me saddest about the way this is coded is that if you spend a lot of time with shadowheart, and find all the content for her and try to help her, she will always kill her parents when given her own choice. And I just don't want to take that agency from her, not when she's lacked agency for so long. I wish the decision wasn't locked in by helping her in another, entirely unrelated decision.
Huh, this is super interesting. As much as I was surprised that she chose to kill her parents in my game, I'm kind of inclined to think that this was intentional. Saving them would result in Shar permanently having a degree of control and influence on her, and her parents were telling her that they were at peace and were ready for her to let them go.
Glad my comment made it into the video, and it was really interesting to see why it works the way it does when I've only ever triggered it by accident.
Thank you! From what I've seen, no, he does not. There are a few flags involving what he knows about it and conditions for if he completes it or not. I'll be including that in a video(s) about the other companions, in the future.
I take issue with the idea that to follow the Moonmaiden Shadowheart HAS to kill her parents. That's nonsense to me and is the antithesis of Selûnite doctrine. The only reason she has to make the choice at all is because of Shar's spite and cruelty. She wants Shadowheart to kill them so that the pain of loss will send her running back to Shar for relief. By saving them however Shadowheart is spurning Shar and Shar's doctrine and chooses to live a life of love and happiness she wanted. And Selûne empowers Shadowheart regardless. No, Shadowheart follows the Moonmaiden in the end with either choice and it's beautiful.
This is interesting. In my playthrough, Shadowheart spared the Nightsong on her own, and I got the parents points “smells” conversation (and of course, she decided to save her parents). I guess my approval with her was high enough that she spared Nightsong even though I didn't have enough Nightsong points - I probably got 3 rather than 4, but I don't remember. Thanks for these videos. It really brings a new level of insight into the story.
Yeah, the 40+ Approval is the important thing when it comes to sparing Nightsong, so unless you know the specific things to look for regarding Nightsong Points, it's not easy to notice how many you have.
If you haven't I think maybe you should do Lazeel. In my recent play through I had her stay true to vlakith & be devoted. She killed Orpheus, and when given the choice for her to decide her fate without my input she decided to stay in Faerun
My current plan is to follow the Gale video with one that collects the other four companions to describe their relatively simpler decision systems/common questions. If one of them ends up more complex than I think after digging in further, I'll give 'em a dedicated video.
For some reason I never watched this one! God, Shart is so complicated. Love her for that. It is cool that she is as reactive as she is, quirks and bugs aside. I'm personally curious about the Patch 6 addition that lets Lae'zel be able to choose where she will go on the docks at the end of the game. I remember reading multiple accounts where she decided the player would go with her to fight Vlaakith, even if you romanced someone else instead of her, and you would not get to say no. I don't recall if I ever saw that one get changed in the patch notes, and I *assume* that getting unwillingly kidnapped into the space war is/was a bug, but it sure is funny XD
Here's my take on the Nightsong points check. More Nightsong points means that Shadowheart is more mistrustful of Shar. Thus, it also means that she's more likely to want to be completely free of Shar, and kill her parents. I think the best ending for her is to reject Shar, but also not give in to her hate of Shar, freeing her parents without losing her ties to Shar
You can also put the Noblestalk inside a container inside a container to let Shadowheart use it before selling it to Derryth, or you could switch characters and have someone else give it to Derryth in the middle of the conversation with Shadowheart.
Thanks for the noblestalk tip. I tried to steal the noblestalk from derryth after giving it to her, but when I reached act3, her shop was poor as if I had never given it to her. so the devs expected this.
As long as she gets the memories in the city, she's always spared her parents, in both paths, in my experience. As long as you leave it up to her. I only tried giving her the Noblestalk in Act I once, & I think that was an early playthrough, before I'd figured out where the memories were, so I have no idea how that factors in.
@@SlimXG Granted, she's only ever killed Nightsong because I told her to. But it was fascinating to watch her turn against Shar in the House of Grief. So much better than sparing Nightsong in the Shadowfell, which IMO comes out of nowhere. I understand why they made it that way, game mechanics wise, but I think it's a better narrative to have her kill Nightsong (because why would she trust anything this Moon Witch devotee says?) then, when she has something personal at stake (her parents) decide to think for herself.
OR it's supposed to be a second chance kind of thing. If you didn't get enough Nightsong points in the first 2 acts, it gives you another way to convince her.
So I have to choose between Persuading her to not kill the Nightsong, or Persuading her to not kill her parents. This is why I chose Lore Bard for my HM attempts; I'd be screwed without Persuasion Expertise. Also it's nice to finally have an answer as to why that "City Smells" conversation seems like such a crapshoot; so many people, myself included, just figured it was bugged.
Well, as long as you have 40+ Approval with Shadowheart, you can still guarantee she spares Nightsong with no check. Just trust her at the first choice and then tell her that Nightsong knows something at the second choice. Without 4+ Nightsong Points, the second set of options will present a Persuade, but you can ignore it.
I would really be interested in seeing what if anything determines how Wyll makes his choice about whether to leave the pact or not? I know a lot of people complain that you have to choose for him but I think other people have gotten him to choose himself
During the cutscene in camp when Mizora shows up with her friends, the only options are to choose for him, and he always agrees with your choice. I'm planning to put together some of those (relatively) simpler options for the other companions into a single video, in the future.
I'm naturally a fast-talking mumbler, so I try to do the exact opposite in the videos, so I'm easier to understand. >.> Other characters (other than Gale, if you haven't watched that video yet) seem to be much simpler, by comparison. But I've been starting to look through their files to find anything interesting.
So if you want Shadowheart to free the Nightsong and her parents, you have to pick between a Persuasion check in the Shadowfell or a Persuasion check in the House of Grief.
Well, no. You only need 40+ Approval to spare Nightsong with no skill check. Just trust Shadowheart at the first option, and tell her that Nightsong knows something about her at the second option. Without 4 Nightsong Points, the second options will include a Persuasion check, but you can just ignore it.
Here to add: You can also give the Noble Stalk to the couple to get your reward, then pick pocket it from them to give to Shadowheart. Then in Act 3 they will still be selling the noble stalk since you completed the quest.
Ok, though since the method in the video doesn't require any pickpocketing, I'd say it's the easier way to go. Though that also probably means you can combine both methods and send it to camp before Shadowheart's memory, then give it to Derryth to complete the quest, then pickpocket it back and have an extra noblestalk.
Giving Shadowheart the noblestalk bugs the trigger for the "smells of the city" dialogue and will not appear when the conditions are met. There's a fix you can find online (and the test done to find that out), but Larian needs to patch it. Her interactions during the trials doesn't affect her choice in the House of Grief, neither the nightsong points (as my experience on my runs, had all points > got the "smells" convo > she chose to free her parents).
This video shows exactly what's going on in the code, and I tested it thoroughly. I even tested it again right now to confirm. The only connection the Noblestalk has is that it's one of the Nightsong Points. However, the "smells" conversation popping up is also blocked by the same "background" flag that I discussed in the Nightsong Points video. If that is set at the time you get the second Parent Point, you won't see the smells talk. That may be what is confusing some people. But even if that happens, the Enough Parent Points flag is still set, so the sparing the parents for free can still happen.
Very weird. I had all the checks and parent point, but when I went to the hide away cave with the orchids no conversation was for me there. Perhaps the Noble Stalk is a requirement for this?
Nah, Noblestalk just adds an extra line. Though the memory conversation from finding the hideout doesn't pop up a "!" the way the other two memories do.
@@Rapid_Gnome Since that one doesn't count as an IPRD (the ! conversations), I think it's also possible a higher priority dialogue that's queued might be able to override it. But I haven't tested that scenario. (And sorry for reiterating the info from the video; you'd be surprised how many questions I get about stuff I already explained, so it's a habit hahah)
Neither really seems like the good or bad choice, when you take everything into account. In that Shar scene, she'll ask her parents, "Is this really what you want?" and they say yes, so she sacrifices them. Or if Shadowheart saves them, they're all happy to be together again. Kinda goes both ways.
Well this explains a lot. I’ve always let Shadowheart choose and she’s always killed her parents but spoke to others about it and I was confused by what they said as it counteracted what happened on my playthroughs now I know why. Edit: to edit in all of those people had romanced Shadowheart but I hadn’t so we assumed that was the reason why but clearly not.
I was like wtf I got all parent points and she still turned them into moon motes, but there was a cutscene missing or something suddenly they were just moon motes. Damn bug.
Wyll story mechanics: "Wyll, as your lawyer, please kill yourself" Shadowheart story mechanics: But you didn't have to cut me off Make out like it never happened And that we were nothing And I don't even need your love But you treat me like a stranger And that feels so rough
I had some really weird bugs in my first playthrough ( no mods or cheats) The graffiti convo triggered twice. Once where it is supposed to and the second after I killed Raphael in the house of hope. A ! came up and she talked about the graffiti. I was confused at first because I thought ahead been there and tagged somewhere so I was looking for it.
i guess i wont ever have shadowheart save her parents willingly as i always seem to surpass with nightsong points, i hope they fix it bc I've been trying to see her talking about the city smells lmfao
So my assumption is that when she goes the shar path and has high approval and the parent points she realises that what shes doing for shar is wrong and so in that scenario the best outcome for her is to save her parents because it gets her away from shar even if she still has the cursed wound. Whereas if you go the selune path the choice for her has different context, its no longer kill them to join shar or save them to run from her, its kill them to free herself from shar and send her parents to selune, or free them but remain cursed by shar. In this context the game doesn't care about the parent points anymore. Shadowheart chooses to kill them since her parents want her to be free and they will go to selune. This is obviously talking about playtrhoughs where you don't influence her descions. So if her nightsong points are low she kills aylin but with high parent points she will realise what she doing for shar is wrong and will save her parents. With high nightsong points she frees aylin. Regardless of parent points she will choose to kill her parents because its what they want and in this context they are going to selune, Whereas in the shar one they would have been kept by shar. So basicly on the shar path the game sees freeing them as the better outcome. On the selune path the game sees killing them as the better outcome. Its either that or the game is bugged but I think my logic here is pretty good
I enjoy your videos so much! Even though I was a little disappointed that this wasn't gonna be an hour long technical deep dive on parent points 😅 I'd be interested if there is a similar mechanic for Lae'zel and Vlaakith, as I am currently doing a Gith run and want Lae'zel to follow Vlaaktih and always tried to encourage that, but when I let her choose freely wether to believe Voss or trust in Vlaaktih after the Créche, she chose to abandon Vlaaktih, so I had to reload and gaslight her :( Also, though I'm not sure if you can even leave this choice to Wyll, but when he has to decide to break the pact or continue the pact to save his father and even later when he has to choose between Blade of Avernus or the politician life, does this also have a hidden mechanic? And, since all the original companions have at least one important choice to make during their adventure, do similar mechanics exist for Astarion's ascension, Gale's ascension and Karlach's "descension" (= going back to Avernus)?
The only one that I have seen so far with any kind of similar "scoring" system is Gale, regarding his attitude toward the crown. The rest either have binary flags that lead them one way or the other (like Lae'zel) or are less than meets the eye and always favor one action unless you specifically talk them out of it, like Astarion ascending. The game seems to want Lae'zel to follow the path of Orpheus, since when Voss shows up, every option causes her to go down that route other than telling her to kill Voss. But you do have the later cutscene with Vlaakith in camp, where you can pass a skill check to swap Lae'zel's path. When Mizora presents the choice in camp about Wyll's father, there is no option to say nothing; you can only encourage Wyll to save him or to let him die/stay dead.
@@LeoTheDarkAngel I've seen a few people ask about those character topics, so I may collect them into a video about how they're simpler than you'd think hahah.
@@SlimXG I've just started a new playthrough with Gale and now I'm wondering...are there certain mechanics for triggering the arcane hunger? I've read some posts online of people trying to make sense of what seems to trigger the hunger but so far couldn't find a conclusive answer (someone even suspected it has to do with their Tav's class). Maybe that is a little more complex than the story triggers for the other origin characters? :)
@@LeoTheDarkAngel Ah, I've seen a bit of that, though hadn't dug into it properly. That's actually a good idea to include in a Gale video, along with the crown/bomb attitude. I do know that moving from region to region is at least one of the triggers.
Saving her parents is the worst thing to do what a selfish thnig to do. As her parents said, if she did that, she would still be cursed by Shar also remember that she must be a selunite and that Selûne had greater plans for her. Also her parents asked to let them die.
Oh. I didn't get enough Parent Points. Good to know. I think both choices make sense for her, but now I can't help but feel like if the choice to let them live is hid behind memories gained, it's the right one and I messed up. But I'm curious whether I didn't have too much Nightsong Points anyway. I'll watch the video. Edit: Not sure. I think I had the DC checks available, but didn't choose one (after being forced to fight her after failing it, then reloading), later said it's her choice, and she let the Nightsong live. I'm not sure I had the third check. If so, and I think so, I had 4 points, meaning too much.
I have begun working on it, though I've also got more videos like this one that I want to make, so I'm not sure when the Act 3 guide will get finished. The honor mode guide videos take wayyyy more work hahah.
Huh so my first playthrough I think I didn’t get enough nightsong points because my character was trying to be not judge and see where she was coming from. I did that like DC30 check to tell her to not kill nightsong. Then in act 3 I think the only parent point I got was the orchid grove, but I distinctly remember getting the convo about the smells of the city earlier when roaming around. Maybe I did one of the other parent points and I forgot. Then when the time came she did decide to save her parents. Interesting that I got that really only through a bug.
Thank you so much for your work! I triggered both the graveyard and graffiti scene, resulting in the 'city smell dialogue' and Shadowheart saving her parents, but the dialogue in the night orchid cave was not triggering, only her comment on the area being familiar to her. Does somebody know why this happens? I'd like to see the third parent point scene, too. I knocked Viconia out, spoke to her and killed her afterwards. Has this something to do with it?
There's definitely something a little different about the conversation in the hideout, since it doesn't pop up a "!" the same way the other two do. The way each of the three memory dialogues trigger is coded entirely differently, which may lead to some of the weirdness. For the hideout one, it's specifically looking for the voice clip that plays when you find the hideout to finish, as well as Shadowheart being inside the area when it happens.
In had a situation in my second playthrough where i didn't get to convince Astarion to not to do the ritual. He just stabbed Cazador to death. I couldn't repeat it in other playthroughs so really no idea what i did that triggered that!
Thanks, that's why in my run she killed her parents. I am sure I had at least two parent points, but that "and not" crosscheck with nightsong points probably altered my run. I was still planning to do a second run as dark urge with patch 7, so maybe it will be fixed for that date :) P.s.: no way I am giving the noblestalk to Baelen, that wife abuser can rot in hell.
I also could’ve sworn I found the little grove and the graffiti but she still killed her parents, but perhaps I found one of them afterwards. But I did have enough nightsong points and she spared her as well, so that’s probably the bug/mystery you mentioned. So does this mean you have to have her kill the Nightsong for her to spare her parents? Sorry it’s been a while since I did that first playthrough, can’t quite remember how things go down lol.
There's always the option to pass one of the skill checks to spare her parents, but that option I highlighted in the video is the one that either spares or kills depending on the conditions I described. It's not about killing the Nightsong (though that does radically change the rest of Shadowheart's story and attitude for the rest of the game), but if you did or didn't get 4+ Nightsong Points and then if you found two of the memories in Act 3. For whatever reason, getting 4+ Nightsong Points (which is seemingly the "good" thing to do) will stop the Act 3 memories from setting Shadowheart up to spare her parents, if you pick that option to let her do her own thing. But since, "Remain silent" also *always* leads to her killing her parents, it may be the "good" thing to do, in the end.
That’s a good point. Ironically that’s what I did my first playthrough, as I was mostly thinking pragmatically. Her parents have been suffering greatly, they want to die so their daughter can be free. I can’t imagine the guilt they feel if she ends up sparing them. So by killing them, Shadowheart is (relatively) free of Shar, and her parents are no longer suffering. The little “orbs” her parents turn into was also a touching scene. But her epilogue of being able to settle down and live out her Noah’s Ark fantasies with her parents sounds nicer for her than having to constantly move out of fear of angry Sharrans.
I once asked her to do what she feels like is right. She let go of her parents. I reloaded. 😂 I’m not romancing her, so she’s will need some support group in her life. I think.
I would be interested if Gale has god points, if Lae'zel has Vlaakith points (can you even actually be on Vlaakiths side?) or "stay in faerun" points. And for Astarion, if his willingness to not do the ritual is based on points or only approval. It feels like you can push him in a direction in dialogues, long before the actual scene. Also his own descision about the other spawn can differ from what I've heard
Gale does have a score that affects his attitude about the crown and the bomb. I'm workin' on that video right now. As for the others, they don't have a score like that, but you can influence those various decisions through choices. I'll probably be covering the other origin companions together in one video, unless I find something more complex for one of them once I start digging deeper.
Nice video. Have you looked into the KarLach 4th wall break? I want to trigger it again i feel strongly ive seen the scene organically in my first playthrough. I know this because of how much of a completionist i am knowing all the details of this video for example from my first playthrough with shadowheart just being observant. I bet you could crack that puzzle and get the $500 prize!
I have looked into it. The dialogue script file for that scene has a developer note that says, "CURRENTLY CAN NOT BE TRIGGERED!", the dialogue trigger is flagged as "IMPOSSIBLE" (a flag used to block unused content), and the camera positions during the scene are clearly unfinished, popping around to random spots. It seems very unlikely that the scene is intended to be seen, in its current form. And it seems likely that anyone that thinks they saw the scene in-game is either misremembering or somehow stumbled into a bug where the wrong scene played.
Everyone thought it was weird that she chose to kill her parents. Turns out yes, it absolutely was. Well done. I'm convinced this is a developer error.
She didn't "kill" her parents. She respected their wishes. She also respected Selune's guidance, because in doing this she had rid herself from Shar's influence permanently. The wound on her hand disappears. I'm not saying this is necessarily a "good" choice, but the operative word here is exactly that - choice. Shadowheart's parents chose to let go, no second thought. If someone chooses something knowing full consequences of their choice, then you have to respect that. Otherwise you're being selfish.
The "true" path being that she lets her parents go doesn't seem hard to believe. The odd part, in my opinion, is that there's no difference on the Shar path. Pushing her away from Shar by getting Nightsong Points then makes her more likely to follow Shar and kill her parents.
@@SlimXG To me personally, I feel like the idea was that in the Dark Justiciar line, Shar has a win-win situation. If Shadowheart has attachment to her parents then Shar can hold them over her and easily manipulate her. If Shadowheart gives up her last familial attachments and kills them then Shar has truly cut her off from her last attachments to her former life. This Shadowheart is likely to cut off the Party itself if or when Shar calls for it in the future. A fine replacement for Viconia Devir. I wonder if something must be special about Shadowheart. Viconia was made to sacrifice a whole Cloister just to move shop and set up a new one in Baldur's Gate. I wonder if Viconia had a journal on each member of the Cloister, only on Shadowheart, or on the more promising members. Dark Shadowheart reminds me of Anakin Skywalker falling down the path to darkness. Familial bonds to bind them and then cutting them off/killing them to finalize their fall, rising as an agent to a dark power. Its not a one to one comparison but similar themes.
@@SlimXG you know more about it than I do. I'm just commenting that it seems odd to the point of being seemingly unintentional. If my understanding is correct, it would be difficult to have SH, on a good path, choose to spare both the Nightsong and her parents. That to me seems odd. If these extra cutscenes and flags are there to determine the outcome with her parents, why have them tied to Nightsong points on a good path? It sounds to me like it works this way, to have her choose to spare her parents: 1. SH must have required approval 2. She must NOT have had the necessary flags to spare the Nightsong, hence the player talked her into that 3. She must have seen specific scenes in act 3. Why tie this to the Nightsong at all in the good path? If she has already spared the Nightsong then having her choice tied to unlocking memories of growing up (parent flags) makes sense, but why should sparing the Nightsong impact that? On the other hand, if on the evil path and assuming she had to be talked into killing the Nightsong, then I could see why she might choose to save her parents or at least refuse to kill them. But is that even what happens? This is all confusing.
When I saw the title of this video I got really angry because I was like "they are just ripping off the work that one guy did in his secret Shadowheart mechanics breakdown" then I realized that you are actually the same person and I feel better now. lol
Can you fish out if Karlach's 4th wall breaking dialogue can be triggered ingame, without modifying the game files? Somebody announced a 500$ for it, and I think you can claim it (if it's possible) :P
Hah, yeah, I even commented about the topic on that video. The camera positions during the scene look clearly unfinished, popping around to weird spots and angles. The trigger is flagged as "IMPOSSIBLE" and the dialogue file itself has a developer note that says, "CURRENTLY CAN NOT BE TRIGGERED!" so I'm thinking it probably currently can not be triggered.
Point system, no. Just a few different flags based on your decisions. I plan to cover that and a bunch of other similar companion decisions in a round-up video.
Well, if your character doesn't say anything at all, (or isn't present in the conversation in the first place) Shadowheart will choose to sacrifice them, so maybe it is.
From what I have seen, it's simply a matter of him always wanting to, unless you stop him (or he can't). But I'm going to dig into it fully in a future video.
Aah, this makes so much sense! Loved your video on the Nightsong points and you explain everything so well again in this one. What tool did you use to browse the game's code/scripts at 2:50?
That is actually just a text editor, Notepad++. Much of the more code-ish scripts that I have seen are what the game files call, "Goals" and they can be extracted as basic text files.
Even though I've never managed to get her to save her parents by herself (due to this weird 'bug' in the code), I still convince her to do so. Finding her parents again, only to have to sacrifice them is Shar's final fuck you for trying to leave her service. My attitude is, fuck Shar. Don't let her have the satisfaction. Taking her parents out of the cloister and enduring the wound anyway is Shadowheart's only way of giving the middle finger back to Shar. Her only way of actually saying no and sticking it to Shar. She'll be in pain, because Shar is petty like that, but if it were me, it would be worth it just to spite Shar.
Even when the parents want to die? Just for a "FU". I think, the better FU is to cross Shars plans, to free Níghtsong and SH and also tear doen her temples.
@@What_do_I_Think Her parents are willing to sacrifice themselves to free her from Shar. Because of course they are, they're her parents. That's not the same thing as wanting to die.
@@TheLanceUppercut The motivation of the parents is not so clear, as you depict it. It can be both IMHO. Or can you give clear prove? I guess, no. It is just your personal impression / opinion.
This was all researched and recorded on Patch 6, version 4.1.1.5022896
Hey, I got the grave point and the graffiti point, and she got the exclamation point above the head, but then she started saying the normal things she normally says when I clicked on her. Is this a bug?
@@loganwhitlock9780 Not sure exactly what happened, there. There were no changes to the Parent Points script in Patch 7, but all three points are coded in different, somewhat weird, ways.
@@SlimXG Hello there, love your videos. I was wondering if you will at some point delve into how the whole thing is handled now in Patch 7.
@@Jackrazorus Yep, I did, and it's completely unchanged.
@@SlimXG Oh, okay. Well thank you for your reseach and also thank you for your super fast response. I did not expect that.
The placebo noblestalk has got to be one of the funniest things in the game
She just gets a good whiff of it from your hands
There used to be an exploit where you could kill Karlach, trigger the cutscene with Wyll at camp, and resurrect Karlach so you'd get the best of both worlds. I found it funny because it was so in-character to find a loophole in a warlock's pact.
This might explain how i somehow managed to keep the rune powder bomb despite using it on the factory, as that happens via cutscene too!
@@SlimXG Does it still work after patch 7
@@rogue4340 Yep. No change.
My girl is so complicated.
Every is.
She has borderline.
Curse you, Bayle...
girl so confusing 😔
Okay so now I know why she wanted to kill her parents even with max approval and all of her dialogues in the city
I think it’s her default decision, she doesn’t know anything else until that creates point
Unfortunately the room with the Night orchids was bugged even with patch 6. It didn’t trigger any reaction. I hope they fixed it by now
The noblestalk you can give it to her, and another to Derith. TH-cam is full of videos about that :D
You can also give noblestalk to the wife of Derith and eat it yourselg as durge. Anyway I am starting to spawn 10 noblestalks @@MoonsongReverb
@@UsuallyDestroyer In my game it glitched despite having it in my inventory. I fed it to Shadowheart first, then gave it to the trader THEN gave it to the bald man.
I wonder what'll happen at ACT 3. Will they have noblestalks? Will they separate? Who knows!
lol the "strap in" with the giant list of different stuff I paused and was like holy shit looking it all over amazed at how many areas there were. then unpause "just kidding".
;)
It seems like having high Nightsong Points causing her to kill her parents may be intended, since sparing them causes Shar’s curse to last forever.
A true Selunite Shadowheart understands that it’s a necessary sacrifice to truly break Shar away from her and her parents forever, placing them in Selune’s embrace.
It’s bittersweet, but a much happier ending in the long term, she’ll see her parents again when the curtain calls, and won’t need to live with Shar’s pain up to that point.
I was under the impression that if Shadowheart saved her parents she'd ALWAYS belong to Shar, even in death. Which makes the decision more balanced, I think.
@@KraakenTowers Yes, ironic that in order to be rid of the Lady of Loss, she needs to lose.
@@crypt1k755 I think somewhere it makes sense. On the one hand, it's absolutely in character for Shar to create that situation. On the other, many who turn to Shar are those who can't truly accept the loss they endured and the pain it still causes them. Shar 'helps' them by taking away the pain of the loss, whether that's through forgetting said loss (as in the House of Grief) or growing numb to it (which will in turn take away both its meaning and the meaning of everything else, as part of getting them to believe in her cause to return everything to nothingness). So it makes sense that if she refuses to accept the loss and the pain thereof she remains in Shar's grasp, and that to overcome the hold of the Lady of Loss has on her she needs to accept and endure the pain of loss, and overcome it. Not to avoid it, not to grow numb to it, not to forget it, but to feel it and overcome it.
@@Zeyox96 Couldn’t have said it any better.
It's mindblowing how layered Shadowheart's arc is. You got the approval, the "Nightsong Points" and then the "Parents Points". On my first playthrough the dialogue about the city smells happened right after seeing the grafitti. But it's very weird. I had her approval maxed, got her to spare the Nightsong on her own and found all those Parents Points triggers, but she _still_ chose to sacrifice her parents at the end if you let her choose. It's so complicated, lmao. Personally I think that, while bittersweet, her letting her parents go is the "right" choice since it's what any parent would do: sacrifice themselves for the sake of their child; but this is very debatable. Awesome content as always!
One of my most favourite moments through the 30 or so playthoughs was when sharran shadowheart saved her parents by herself. I havent managed to repeat that since. Thanks for the explanation.
It is super interesting because the extra NOT could be both a feature and a bug :D
Thanks.
All I've ever had is dead Shadowheart parents. Now I know it's because of a couple of missed chats from city rambling, good to know!
In my last play through i had to convince her not to kill her parents. The dialogue in the Or hid room was bugged for me. But knowing of that hidden graphity will help a lot ^^
I think it’s n intention done by the developers. If you want her to become Dark Justicicar, ahe will have to sacrifice her parents to Shar. If you want her to convert to Selune, well,… i feel the devs could have done better. Still Shar is also a godess of Forgetting, so keeping them alive despite the curse is more a decision that favors Selune. In my eyes at least
Isnt Shar straight up says that this is a lose-lose choice. Either sac parents and get rid of me, or save them and i stay. Am i imagining that? So for me this last confusing part about flags interaction seems very intentional and only mistake could be that Devs forgot to edit these checks for the sharran shadowheart.
That’s based on what Shar and her emotionally defeated dad say. More like a lose nothing or lose a lot situation with keeping or tossing away the parents.
From what I understand, if she kills her parents and sends them to Selune as moon motes she and her parents will be free from Shar's influence, and she won't suffer the Sharran wound every day for the rest of her life. if she saves them, then she continues to feel the pain for other est of her life. I also heard something about the wound dulling her emotions but I don't know where they got that from.
Shar presents it as a lose lose situation because she wants to gloat about winning even when shadowheart has defied her. But in reality saying “your curse is not really that big of a deal to me, and I won’t kill my parents and live with that loss to get rid of it. Well live happily for the rest of our lives despite your constant efforts otherwise” is a pretty big fuck you to shar. She’s screaming in rage and shadowheart is just living her best life on a farm with her parents and possibly a love interest, just occasionally getting a few moments of shooting pain. This turns it into a lose lose for shar. She can either keep torturing shadowheart after shadowheart has already shown it isn’t that big a deal, and be seen as petty and weak since she’s still trying to hurt shadowheart with a minor inconvenience, or she can stop torturing shadowheart and both admit and show defeat. There’s no way for her to come out of that story path looking like she’s won
@@roanc3709 keeping telling that to yourself.
@@su8r0u71n3 it’s literally canon?
Thanks. Definitely don’t want to mess this up. The quality of life her parents would have, especially her mother, it honestly feels like mercy to let them go. Especially since they plead with her to do so
Gale also has a hidden points system, that might be worth a look
Yep, that's what I have my sights on, next
And Astarion too: if we give leave him after Cazador is defeated and give him the chance to decide for himself, he makes a choice about 7000 victims.
@@galenibble Oh! Also, is there points for wether he even wants to do the ritual? Or is it only approval? I could easily convince him as a lover, but I saw the scene in my friends game who COULD not convince him to not do it. So it was do the ritual or lose him
@@colorfulsomething5008 if you let him talk with Cazador alone and stay somewhere in the ballroom upstairs, for example, he won't be able to do the ritual. And no repercussions for the player.
He wants to do the ritual anyway: it's the whole point of this part of his journey, to be almost consumed by rage and despair in this critical moment.
@@galenibble I'm pretty sure if he's alone he always saves them, because he can't complete the ritual without help. It's like throwing the night spear into the abyss to keep Shadowheart from using it.
Can confirm ! My Shart ate the noblestalk (but bugged) and started the trials, I believe I got 3 Nightsong points total (cause bugs), but I got the 3 Parent points. I let her choose and she saved her parents.
So blessed be the bugs of the Selunite chest and noblestalk 🤣
These series of videos are amazing! Thank you!
My girl really is the most overworked one out of the rest))
Thanks for the detailed explanation! It's funny how in my first playthrough I didn't get enough Nighsong points but enough Parent Points, so when my Tav said, "You know the right thing to do," she saved her parents. Truly, it's bizarre to know how all worked out within the code, so I had little to no bags at all in regard to Shadowheart's quest.
I can't say which ending for her is the best (from the lore perspective, it's open to interpretation to say the least, especially considering the epilogue party and how Shar, it seems, harm less her wound). Both have their ups and downs, but I think I prefer saving parents. In the end, my Tav would support Shadowheart's choice, no matter what she chose.
I love that that they put so much effort into character choices when they could of just based it off of approval
Thanks so much for this video!! You've yet again solved a mystery that had me baffled, it seems I be getting too many nightsong points for her to spare her parents when it is left up to her. The complexity of these scoring systems is fascinating, even if some things don't make sense or are potentially bugged.
Yeah, I'm really not sure what they were thinking with that seemingly counterintuitive restriction on Nightsong Points, but at least knowing about it means you can decide which events and options you want to go for.
It might be a dev mistake to put the AND NOT there but it also might be intentional. Her parents are what keeps her away from faith in the Shar path and the abandon Shar path. With her parents gone she either becomes Shar's chosen or a travelling Selunite in the epilogue. If her parents are around she will move into a small cottage with them and she won't even mention her faith. Which outcome you prefer depends on your opinion on the gods in general and not on solely morality.
Fantastic and informative video. Been reading through everyone’s takes on the subject, whether the nightsong part of it is a bug or not, and I’m of two minds.
On the one hand, the argument could be made that in order to fully devote herself to Selûne, Shadowheart has to rid herself of any sharran influence (in this case the “incurable” wound). This is in my head, is a justification from a purely religious standpoint. I'll go into more depth on this in a bit.
From a gameplay perspective, this sort of seems like a bug. What are the Nightsong points really? They're points that indicate Shar losing her grip on Shadowheart, whether it be through her remembering her past or the player’s influence, resulting in her “spurning the Dark Lady”, as Nightsong herself puts it. Parent points, in this light, are just are a second set of memories/triggers used to see whether or not Shadowheart sacrifices not just her parents, but her past. When not enough parent points are obtained, from her perspective, she’s really sacrificing the “idea” of her past, represented in the form of her parents - the last direct link. However, the more she remembers of her past, the more inclined she is to save it.
Which choice is right? Like many have said, it’s perspective. Her parents are willing to sacrifice themselves to rid their daughter of her physical pain. This is the noble and “what you'd expect a parent would say” answer. Analyzing the situation more closely, you realize it’s more complicated than that. Shar is really forcing Shadowheart to substitute the physical pain of the wound with emotional pain. It’s not simply grief, it’s guilt. It’s the idea that she could have saved her family and chose not to, making her in some way, complicit in their deaths. This is why Shar doesn't just kill Shadowheart’s parents herself. She wants to continue manipulating Shadowheart in either outcome. Shadowheart confirms this herself by stating Shar is hoping the insurmountable emotional pain will force her back into her embrace. Its the reason Shar actually restores many of Shadowheart’s horrible memories. In this sense, no ending really rids Shadowheart of Shar completely. Like many have stated, it’s a lose-lose.
It strikes me as odd that the devs would intend for high nightsong points to cancel out the parent points. If you turn Shadowheart away from Shar sooner, why should that result in her sacrificing her parent? Shadowheart has no knowledge of her parents while you're gaining nightsong points. The two don't seem to have any correlation, except if you look at it from a religious standpoint. Gaining more nightsong points means you’re pushing Shadowheart closer to fully embracing Selûne, with her first act being saving Selûne’s daughter. Given Selûne’s nature of valuing life and family, it seems counterintuitive that gaining favor with her would result in Shadowheart feeling she has to sacrifice her own parents, unless Ketheric Thorm was right. Ketheric states that when his wife - and later his daughter - died, Selûne did nothing about it, despite them being faithful servants. He states that they're all just pawns of the gods. “Pieces to be moved around,” I think he says. If Selûne is really so petty as to not wholly welcome Shadowheart because she still has her rival sister’s curse, to me makes me question whether Selûne is even worth following. Lorewise, I don't think this accurately portrays the Moonmaiden, but that's what the effect the nightsong points end up having in regards to the parent situation.
I wonder if other origin characters also use this hidden points system to make decisions
From what I have seen so far, no other character is as complex as Shadowheart, at least not with this sort of "scoring" system. Of course, there are many different flags that get set and checked based on your actions that affect the companion interactions.
I’ve done both choices with Shadowheart and her parents. I feel like her saving them is a better option. Especially as she settles down with them (and you if you romance her) and from the epilogue party and the dialogue available, Shadowheart’s wound is lessened, and she seems to deal with it pretty well. With Tav/Redeemed Durge, they have a great cottage core life together.
1:20 I think you can also get to this point if you talk with shadowhearts friend about it and she tells you about the hidden passage
Ah, nice. Good tip.
A bit hand pain is worth having your perrents around and live happily ever after on a farm.
I'd like to mention the Shadowheart dialogue option: "I want to talk about all that's happened to us". After using this dialogue option once, she will ever after respond with "Fine, what's on your mind?" But there are actually several unique first time responses to this from early act 1, late act 1, early act 2, late act 2, early act 3, entering lower city act 3. I'd love to see a video from you exploring upon this as it's an interesting treat that might be a fault in the coding. Thanks for making these videos.
I have seen some oddly specific dialogue lines from her. For example, there actually is a way to see if you currently have 4+ Nightsong Points, but only if you specifically have between 40 and 50 approval with Shadowheart. I could take a look at the bit you're asking about, sure.
You are a godsend once again, thank you so much! It’s so interesting to learn about how the game decides what our companions will and won’t do. I wish I knew more about code because it’s such a fascinating topic to me.
There's a lottttt of data, but I enjoy going through it, so I'm happy to keep making more videos like this as long as people wanna watch hahah.
Ugh, I had the option but decided to let her "free" her parents... and ending their misery.
I mean honestly neither are really "bad" outcomes for selunite shart as a character.
@@appelofdoom8211 I mean, in one ending she is happy, in the other she still feels the burden of her actions and regrets killing them.
@@cosmic_drone But she's also going to feel the pain of the Sharran wound for the rest of her life, and that might not be worth it when she eventually outlives her parents.
@@alexanderinoa7850 Pain is just that, pain. There are people who live with constant chronic pain that would not give up loved ones to be free of it, and that would even bear more of it for a chance to see a relative again. Bearing the curse and still being happy weakens Shar and is a big middle finger to her, and also SH reclaims her agency by not doing what Shar wants for once, which is also very important.
As SH says: "She can twist the knife all she wants, I know I can survive her worst. (her punishment after freeing the nightsong). Nothing she does can sour the fact that have my family again."
Her father is an 400-ish years old elf, and elves live more than 750, chances are her father will outlive her.
tldr Shar is the goddess of Loss so basically:
killing them > loss to avoid pain > SH still feels pain because of said loss (emotional) > Shar got what she wanted
saving them > no loss to avoid pain > SH still feels pain, despite that continues to do good and is happy > Shar did not get what she wanted
@@cosmic_drone Tbf I see no world where saving them is worth it unless they explain whether or not the cruse actually lets Shar claim them or is just eternal pain.
Tbh I got her killing her parents and I thought that was just the "best" outcome, i.e the one that she really wanted. I know for a fact that I most likely missed the graveyard point but got the other two points but I also got the Nightsong points so when I let her choose she chose to kill them since I couldn't get the cutscene. However I don't exactly think that's a glitch, it might be but it's also just a really bittersweet and in character moment of Shadowheart letting go and having to deal with losing her parents in exchange for finally being free of Shar. It hurt but I don't think it was a bad ending to that plot point. Sometimes love is loss.
You're the GOAT. Helped me on my playthrough, greatly appreciated.
🐐
I think both options play well with Selûne as a goddess, just like how a Selûnite in the game can tell Shadowheart to kill the Nightsong.
I think about how Selûne values self-reliance and making your own choices, that we all have changing moods and natures depending on each situation (just like Selûne does herself with the waxing and waning of Selûne the moon).
"Let all on whom my light falls be welcome if they desire to be so. As the silver moon waxes and wanes, so too does all life. Trust in my radiance, and know that all love alive under my light shall know my blessing. Turn to the moon, and I will be your true guide."
Great video, just like the previous one!
The fact that, "Remain silent" always leads to her killing them does make it seem like it's the proper outcome. But we'll probably never know what Larian was thinking with this particular choice (just like the odd scenario in Act 2 where you have no option to avoid killing Nightsong).
I interested in Gale God points. There has to a mechanism as to why Gale is so ready to reject Mystra in some runs, while he will willingly sacrifice himself at the end in others, to the point that dissuading him needs a skillcheck
I'm'a already workin' on it. And yeah, there are multiple opportunities to push him in one direction of the other, particularly if you are in a romance with him.
In my latest evil Dark Urge playthrough, i had full evil SH, killed the Nightsong, helped destroy the grove and last Last Light Inn, you name it. I did catch the 3 memory dialogues for her and by default she wanted to save her parents. But being evil i insisted she kill them. By default she would save them.
I didn't do the night cave until after the parents. But the smells of the city did occur right after the graveyard. I didn't do the mushroom with her.
Now I'd like to know why in my playthrough she killed her parents, but at the reunion party she said that her father takes care of the animals back home while we're away (or something similar, but clearly stating that her father is alive).
Maybe the animals are also dead
@@SlimXG bruh 💀
I personally think that sending them to selune is the best choice as by keeping them alive your only prolonging both theirs and Shadowheart's misery as the choice is sending them to the heavens or keep Shadowheart's pain
Awesome!! I had subscriber notifications on for this lol, thanks for the great breakdown! You finally solved the great mystery of that bugged conversation not happening.
A lot of people in the comments are saying that saving shadowhearts parents makes her happier. While I think its a perspective that is worth debate, the one thing that makes me saddest about the way this is coded is that if you spend a lot of time with shadowheart, and find all the content for her and try to help her, she will always kill her parents when given her own choice. And I just don't want to take that agency from her, not when she's lacked agency for so long. I wish the decision wasn't locked in by helping her in another, entirely unrelated decision.
I gotta try the noblestalk trick now!
Huh, this is super interesting. As much as I was surprised that she chose to kill her parents in my game, I'm kind of inclined to think that this was intentional. Saving them would result in Shar permanently having a degree of control and influence on her, and her parents were telling her that they were at peace and were ready for her to let them go.
Glad my comment made it into the video, and it was really interesting to see why it works the way it does when I've only ever triggered it by accident.
Great video! thank you! ❤ I’m very curious to see if Astarion has a point system for completing Cazador’s ritual or not.
Thank you! From what I've seen, no, he does not. There are a few flags involving what he knows about it and conditions for if he completes it or not. I'll be including that in a video(s) about the other companions, in the future.
@@SlimXG okay, thanks! Looking forward to any new videos!
I did all of these and I never got her to spare her parents voluntarily
same
I take issue with the idea that to follow the Moonmaiden Shadowheart HAS to kill her parents. That's nonsense to me and is the antithesis of Selûnite doctrine. The only reason she has to make the choice at all is because of Shar's spite and cruelty. She wants Shadowheart to kill them so that the pain of loss will send her running back to Shar for relief. By saving them however Shadowheart is spurning Shar and Shar's doctrine and chooses to live a life of love and happiness she wanted. And Selûne empowers Shadowheart regardless.
No, Shadowheart follows the Moonmaiden in the end with either choice and it's beautiful.
My thoughts exactly.
This is interesting. In my playthrough, Shadowheart spared the Nightsong on her own, and I got the parents points “smells” conversation (and of course, she decided to save her parents).
I guess my approval with her was high enough that she spared Nightsong even though I didn't have enough Nightsong points - I probably got 3 rather than 4, but I don't remember.
Thanks for these videos. It really brings a new level of insight into the story.
Yeah, the 40+ Approval is the important thing when it comes to sparing Nightsong, so unless you know the specific things to look for regarding Nightsong Points, it's not easy to notice how many you have.
@@SlimXG so maybe you want to intentionally not have enough nightsong points as the approval is not that hard?
If you haven't I think maybe you should do Lazeel. In my recent play through I had her stay true to vlakith & be devoted. She killed Orpheus, and when given the choice for her to decide her fate without my input she decided to stay in Faerun
My current plan is to follow the Gale video with one that collects the other four companions to describe their relatively simpler decision systems/common questions. If one of them ends up more complex than I think after digging in further, I'll give 'em a dedicated video.
For some reason I never watched this one! God, Shart is so complicated. Love her for that. It is cool that she is as reactive as she is, quirks and bugs aside.
I'm personally curious about the Patch 6 addition that lets Lae'zel be able to choose where she will go on the docks at the end of the game. I remember reading multiple accounts where she decided the player would go with her to fight Vlaakith, even if you romanced someone else instead of her, and you would not get to say no. I don't recall if I ever saw that one get changed in the patch notes, and I *assume* that getting unwillingly kidnapped into the space war is/was a bug, but it sure is funny XD
Here's my take on the Nightsong points check. More Nightsong points means that Shadowheart is more mistrustful of Shar. Thus, it also means that she's more likely to want to be completely free of Shar, and kill her parents. I think the best ending for her is to reject Shar, but also not give in to her hate of Shar, freeing her parents without losing her ties to Shar
You can also put the Noblestalk inside a container inside a container to let Shadowheart use it before selling it to Derryth, or you could switch characters and have someone else give it to Derryth in the middle of the conversation with Shadowheart.
Another ineresting video! Saw so many theories about his floating around, this is the first one with some hard facts though.
Thanks for the noblestalk tip. I tried to steal the noblestalk from derryth after giving it to her, but when I reached act3, her shop was poor as if I had never given it to her. so the devs expected this.
The mystery is solved! Much appreciated, thank you!
But what would Shadowheart be without a little mystery
As long as she gets the memories in the city, she's always spared her parents, in both paths, in my experience. As long as you leave it up to her.
I only tried giving her the Noblestalk in Act I once, & I think that was an early playthrough, before I'd figured out where the memories were, so I have no idea how that factors in.
Right, you probably didn't get 4+ Nightsong Points in those playthroughs, which is pretty common, especially without including the Noblestalk.
@@SlimXG Granted, she's only ever killed Nightsong because I told her to.
But it was fascinating to watch her turn against Shar in the House of Grief. So much better than sparing Nightsong in the Shadowfell, which IMO comes out of nowhere. I understand why they made it that way, game mechanics wise, but I think it's a better narrative to have her kill Nightsong (because why would she trust anything this Moon Witch devotee says?) then, when she has something personal at stake (her parents) decide to think for herself.
OR it's supposed to be a second chance kind of thing. If you didn't get enough Nightsong points in the first 2 acts, it gives you another way to convince her.
Fascinating, as always.
The area in the House of Grief is easy to find, but how did the devs expect anyone to guess to look for a gravestone and some random graffiti?!
I think I happened to wander by the graffiti at one point, but I never went around clicking every gravestone . .
So I have to choose between Persuading her to not kill the Nightsong, or Persuading her to not kill her parents.
This is why I chose Lore Bard for my HM attempts; I'd be screwed without Persuasion Expertise.
Also it's nice to finally have an answer as to why that "City Smells" conversation seems like such a crapshoot; so many people, myself included, just figured it was bugged.
Well, as long as you have 40+ Approval with Shadowheart, you can still guarantee she spares Nightsong with no check. Just trust her at the first choice and then tell her that Nightsong knows something at the second choice. Without 4+ Nightsong Points, the second set of options will present a Persuade, but you can ignore it.
I would really be interested in seeing what if anything determines how Wyll makes his choice about whether to leave the pact or not? I know a lot of people complain that you have to choose for him but I think other people have gotten him to choose himself
During the cutscene in camp when Mizora shows up with her friends, the only options are to choose for him, and he always agrees with your choice. I'm planning to put together some of those (relatively) simpler options for the other companions into a single video, in the future.
The way you talk is like how thing are made. I like to see how the other characters points are
I'm naturally a fast-talking mumbler, so I try to do the exact opposite in the videos, so I'm easier to understand. >.>
Other characters (other than Gale, if you haven't watched that video yet) seem to be much simpler, by comparison. But I've been starting to look through their files to find anything interesting.
@@SlimXG that gale one was funny and informative.
So if you want Shadowheart to free the Nightsong and her parents, you have to pick between a Persuasion check in the Shadowfell or a Persuasion check in the House of Grief.
Well, no. You only need 40+ Approval to spare Nightsong with no skill check. Just trust Shadowheart at the first option, and tell her that Nightsong knows something about her at the second option. Without 4 Nightsong Points, the second options will include a Persuasion check, but you can just ignore it.
Wow I was not super through in my first playthrough, I'm surprised I passed this check unintentionally
Here to add: You can also give the Noble Stalk to the couple to get your reward, then pick pocket it from them to give to Shadowheart. Then in Act 3 they will still be selling the noble stalk since you completed the quest.
Ok, though since the method in the video doesn't require any pickpocketing, I'd say it's the easier way to go. Though that also probably means you can combine both methods and send it to camp before Shadowheart's memory, then give it to Derryth to complete the quest, then pickpocket it back and have an extra noblestalk.
Giving Shadowheart the noblestalk bugs the trigger for the "smells of the city" dialogue and will not appear when the conditions are met. There's a fix you can find online (and the test done to find that out), but Larian needs to patch it. Her interactions during the trials doesn't affect her choice in the House of Grief, neither the nightsong points (as my experience on my runs, had all points > got the "smells" convo > she chose to free her parents).
This video shows exactly what's going on in the code, and I tested it thoroughly. I even tested it again right now to confirm. The only connection the Noblestalk has is that it's one of the Nightsong Points. However, the "smells" conversation popping up is also blocked by the same "background" flag that I discussed in the Nightsong Points video. If that is set at the time you get the second Parent Point, you won't see the smells talk. That may be what is confusing some people. But even if that happens, the Enough Parent Points flag is still set, so the sparing the parents for free can still happen.
This excellent information.
Would love to see similar videos on other companions!
Very weird. I had all the checks and parent point, but when I went to the hide away cave with the orchids no conversation was for me there. Perhaps the Noble Stalk is a requirement for this?
Nah, Noblestalk just adds an extra line. Though the memory conversation from finding the hideout doesn't pop up a "!" the way the other two memories do.
@@SlimXG Yeah I knew that I watched your video. Still weird
@@Rapid_Gnome Since that one doesn't count as an IPRD (the ! conversations), I think it's also possible a higher priority dialogue that's queued might be able to override it. But I haven't tested that scenario.
(And sorry for reiterating the info from the video; you'd be surprised how many questions I get about stuff I already explained, so it's a habit hahah)
I…honestly assumed killing her parents was the good choice? It’s like, a mercy kill. Now I realise everyone is telling me to save them 😅
Neither really seems like the good or bad choice, when you take everything into account. In that Shar scene, she'll ask her parents, "Is this really what you want?" and they say yes, so she sacrifices them. Or if Shadowheart saves them, they're all happy to be together again. Kinda goes both ways.
Well this explains a lot. I’ve always let Shadowheart choose and she’s always killed her parents but spoke to others about it and I was confused by what they said as it counteracted what happened on my playthroughs now I know why.
Edit: to edit in all of those people had romanced Shadowheart but I hadn’t so we assumed that was the reason why but clearly not.
I was like wtf I got all parent points and she still turned them into moon motes, but there was a cutscene missing or something suddenly they were just moon motes.
Damn bug.
Wyll story mechanics: "Wyll, as your lawyer, please kill yourself"
Shadowheart story mechanics:
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
I had some really weird bugs in my first playthrough ( no mods or cheats) The graffiti convo triggered twice. Once where it is supposed to and the second after I killed Raphael in the house of hope. A ! came up and she talked about the graffiti. I was confused at first because I thought ahead been there and tagged somewhere so I was looking for it.
now can you explain how Shadowheart knows how to swim even if you never teach her how to swim? that's the only mystery left for me
Maybe's there's a SwimmingPoints system . .
i guess i wont ever have shadowheart save her parents willingly as i always seem to surpass with nightsong points, i hope they fix it bc I've been trying to see her talking about the city smells lmfao
She still does it willingly. You just have to pass the persuasion check.
Ugh ;-; thanks for solving the parent trap
So my assumption is that when she goes the shar path and has high approval and the parent points she realises that what shes doing for shar is wrong and so in that scenario the best outcome for her is to save her parents because it gets her away from shar even if she still has the cursed wound. Whereas if you go the selune path the choice for her has different context, its no longer kill them to join shar or save them to run from her, its kill them to free herself from shar and send her parents to selune, or free them but remain cursed by shar. In this context the game doesn't care about the parent points anymore. Shadowheart chooses to kill them since her parents want her to be free and they will go to selune. This is obviously talking about playtrhoughs where you don't influence her descions. So if her nightsong points are low she kills aylin but with high parent points she will realise what she doing for shar is wrong and will save her parents. With high nightsong points she frees aylin. Regardless of parent points she will choose to kill her parents because its what they want and in this context they are going to selune, Whereas in the shar one they would have been kept by shar. So basicly on the shar path the game sees freeing them as the better outcome. On the selune path the game sees killing them as the better outcome. Its either that or the game is bugged but I think my logic here is pretty good
I enjoy your videos so much! Even though I was a little disappointed that this wasn't gonna be an hour long technical deep dive on parent points 😅
I'd be interested if there is a similar mechanic for Lae'zel and Vlaakith, as I am currently doing a Gith run and want Lae'zel to follow Vlaaktih and always tried to encourage that, but when I let her choose freely wether to believe Voss or trust in Vlaaktih after the Créche, she chose to abandon Vlaaktih, so I had to reload and gaslight her :(
Also, though I'm not sure if you can even leave this choice to Wyll, but when he has to decide to break the pact or continue the pact to save his father and even later when he has to choose between Blade of Avernus or the politician life, does this also have a hidden mechanic?
And, since all the original companions have at least one important choice to make during their adventure, do similar mechanics exist for Astarion's ascension, Gale's ascension and Karlach's "descension" (= going back to Avernus)?
The only one that I have seen so far with any kind of similar "scoring" system is Gale, regarding his attitude toward the crown. The rest either have binary flags that lead them one way or the other (like Lae'zel) or are less than meets the eye and always favor one action unless you specifically talk them out of it, like Astarion ascending.
The game seems to want Lae'zel to follow the path of Orpheus, since when Voss shows up, every option causes her to go down that route other than telling her to kill Voss. But you do have the later cutscene with Vlaakith in camp, where you can pass a skill check to swap Lae'zel's path.
When Mizora presents the choice in camp about Wyll's father, there is no option to say nothing; you can only encourage Wyll to save him or to let him die/stay dead.
@@SlimXG Thank you very much for that explanation, or rather, those explanations!
@@LeoTheDarkAngel I've seen a few people ask about those character topics, so I may collect them into a video about how they're simpler than you'd think hahah.
@@SlimXG I've just started a new playthrough with Gale and now I'm wondering...are there certain mechanics for triggering the arcane hunger? I've read some posts online of people trying to make sense of what seems to trigger the hunger but so far couldn't find a conclusive answer (someone even suspected it has to do with their Tav's class). Maybe that is a little more complex than the story triggers for the other origin characters? :)
@@LeoTheDarkAngel Ah, I've seen a bit of that, though hadn't dug into it properly. That's actually a good idea to include in a Gale video, along with the crown/bomb attitude. I do know that moving from region to region is at least one of the triggers.
So basically dropping the spear is the canon way to lead her back to feline and saving her parents lol
Saving her parents is the worst thing to do what a selfish thnig to do. As her parents said, if she did that, she would still be cursed by Shar also remember that she must be a selunite and that Selûne had greater plans for her. Also her parents asked to let them die.
Oh. I didn't get enough Parent Points. Good to know. I think both choices make sense for her, but now I can't help but feel like if the choice to let them live is hid behind memories gained, it's the right one and I messed up.
But I'm curious whether I didn't have too much Nightsong Points anyway. I'll watch the video.
Edit: Not sure. I think I had the DC checks available, but didn't choose one (after being forced to fight her after failing it, then reloading), later said it's her choice, and she let the Nightsong live. I'm not sure I had the third check. If so, and I think so, I had 4 points, meaning too much.
Next time, could you please explore the system behind Gale's decision regarding the Orb?
That video is already well under way, so, yes. =)
@@SlimXG Thank you.
You're a life saver mate!
please do not feel rushed at all but i would love an act 3 honor mode guide made by you.
I have begun working on it, though I've also got more videos like this one that I want to make, so I'm not sure when the Act 3 guide will get finished. The honor mode guide videos take wayyyy more work hahah.
Huh so my first playthrough I think I didn’t get enough nightsong points because my character was trying to be not judge and see where she was coming from. I did that like DC30 check to tell her to not kill nightsong. Then in act 3 I think the only parent point I got was the orchid grove, but I distinctly remember getting the convo about the smells of the city earlier when roaming around. Maybe I did one of the other parent points and I forgot. Then when the time came she did decide to save her parents. Interesting that I got that really only through a bug.
Thank you so much for your work! I triggered both the graveyard and graffiti scene, resulting in the 'city smell dialogue' and Shadowheart saving her parents, but the dialogue in the night orchid cave was not triggering, only her comment on the area being familiar to her. Does somebody know why this happens? I'd like to see the third parent point scene, too. I knocked Viconia out, spoke to her and killed her afterwards. Has this something to do with it?
There's definitely something a little different about the conversation in the hideout, since it doesn't pop up a "!" the same way the other two do. The way each of the three memory dialogues trigger is coded entirely differently, which may lead to some of the weirdness. For the hideout one, it's specifically looking for the voice clip that plays when you find the hideout to finish, as well as Shadowheart being inside the area when it happens.
In had a situation in my second playthrough where i didn't get to convince Astarion to not to do the ritual. He just stabbed Cazador to death. I couldn't repeat it in other playthroughs so really no idea what i did that triggered that!
That's probably my #1 most asked companion question, so it's definitely going into a future video.
Evidence that saving her parents is correct... the damn effort it takes. Good thing we all play Charisma characters, eh?
Thanks, that's why in my run she killed her parents. I am sure I had at least two parent points, but that "and not" crosscheck with nightsong points probably altered my run. I was still planning to do a second run as dark urge with patch 7, so maybe it will be fixed for that date :)
P.s.: no way I am giving the noblestalk to Baelen, that wife abuser can rot in hell.
Derryth is the wife . .
@@SlimXG Oh f, sorry ahaha I meant Baelen. Got my wires mixed up :)
@@SupaaRaphael Well, you *can* kill Baelen and still give the noblestalk to Derryth, if that'll make you feel better
@@SlimXG and that's what I did in the last run :P
@@SupaaRaphael Everybody wins!
Thanks for the video.
I also could’ve sworn I found the little grove and the graffiti but she still killed her parents, but perhaps I found one of them afterwards. But I did have enough nightsong points and she spared her as well, so that’s probably the bug/mystery you mentioned. So does this mean you have to have her kill the Nightsong for her to spare her parents? Sorry it’s been a while since I did that first playthrough, can’t quite remember how things go down lol.
There's always the option to pass one of the skill checks to spare her parents, but that option I highlighted in the video is the one that either spares or kills depending on the conditions I described. It's not about killing the Nightsong (though that does radically change the rest of Shadowheart's story and attitude for the rest of the game), but if you did or didn't get 4+ Nightsong Points and then if you found two of the memories in Act 3. For whatever reason, getting 4+ Nightsong Points (which is seemingly the "good" thing to do) will stop the Act 3 memories from setting Shadowheart up to spare her parents, if you pick that option to let her do her own thing. But since, "Remain silent" also *always* leads to her killing her parents, it may be the "good" thing to do, in the end.
That’s a good point. Ironically that’s what I did my first playthrough, as I was mostly thinking pragmatically. Her parents have been suffering greatly, they want to die so their daughter can be free. I can’t imagine the guilt they feel if she ends up sparing them. So by killing them, Shadowheart is (relatively) free of Shar, and her parents are no longer suffering. The little “orbs” her parents turn into was also a touching scene. But her epilogue of being able to settle down and live out her Noah’s Ark fantasies with her parents sounds nicer for her than having to constantly move out of fear of angry Sharrans.
I once asked her to do what she feels like is right. She let go of her parents.
I reloaded. 😂
I’m not romancing her, so she’s will need some support group in her life. I think.
I would be interested if Gale has god points, if Lae'zel has Vlaakith points (can you even actually be on Vlaakiths side?) or "stay in faerun" points. And for Astarion, if his willingness to not do the ritual is based on points or only approval. It feels like you can push him in a direction in dialogues, long before the actual scene. Also his own descision about the other spawn can differ from what I've heard
Gale does have a score that affects his attitude about the crown and the bomb. I'm workin' on that video right now. As for the others, they don't have a score like that, but you can influence those various decisions through choices. I'll probably be covering the other origin companions together in one video, unless I find something more complex for one of them once I start digging deeper.
@@SlimXG nice! Looking forward to that
i doubt it but i hope shadowheart has a 3rd secret point system.
>.>
Does the wolf dream point system count?
Yeah, I mean, she has Wound Flares, Wolf Dream Points, Nightsong Points, Parent Points
I forgot about those. She has points to see if you get points lol. Surely she doesn't have *looks at notebook* a fifth point system
@@bmetallaoui She's also got a lot of Exclamation Points
Nice video. Have you looked into the KarLach 4th wall break? I want to trigger it again i feel strongly ive seen the scene organically in my first playthrough. I know this because of how much of a completionist i am knowing all the details of this video for example from my first playthrough with shadowheart just being observant. I bet you could crack that puzzle and get the $500 prize!
I have looked into it. The dialogue script file for that scene has a developer note that says, "CURRENTLY CAN NOT BE TRIGGERED!", the dialogue trigger is flagged as "IMPOSSIBLE" (a flag used to block unused content), and the camera positions during the scene are clearly unfinished, popping around to random spots. It seems very unlikely that the scene is intended to be seen, in its current form. And it seems likely that anyone that thinks they saw the scene in-game is either misremembering or somehow stumbled into a bug where the wrong scene played.
Everyone thought it was weird that she chose to kill her parents. Turns out yes, it absolutely was. Well done. I'm convinced this is a developer error.
Honestly I thought it was fine that she chose to listen to her parents wishes
She didn't "kill" her parents. She respected their wishes. She also respected Selune's guidance, because in doing this she had rid herself from Shar's influence permanently. The wound on her hand disappears.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a "good" choice, but the operative word here is exactly that - choice. Shadowheart's parents chose to let go, no second thought. If someone chooses something knowing full consequences of their choice, then you have to respect that. Otherwise you're being selfish.
The "true" path being that she lets her parents go doesn't seem hard to believe. The odd part, in my opinion, is that there's no difference on the Shar path. Pushing her away from Shar by getting Nightsong Points then makes her more likely to follow Shar and kill her parents.
@@SlimXG To me personally, I feel like the idea was that in the Dark Justiciar line, Shar has a win-win situation. If Shadowheart has attachment to her parents then Shar can hold them over her and easily manipulate her. If Shadowheart gives up her last familial attachments and kills them then Shar has truly cut her off from her last attachments to her former life. This Shadowheart is likely to cut off the Party itself if or when Shar calls for it in the future. A fine replacement for Viconia Devir.
I wonder if something must be special about Shadowheart. Viconia was made to sacrifice a whole Cloister just to move shop and set up a new one in Baldur's Gate. I wonder if Viconia had a journal on each member of the Cloister, only on Shadowheart, or on the more promising members.
Dark Shadowheart reminds me of Anakin Skywalker falling down the path to darkness. Familial bonds to bind them and then cutting them off/killing them to finalize their fall, rising as an agent to a dark power. Its not a one to one comparison but similar themes.
@@SlimXG you know more about it than I do. I'm just commenting that it seems odd to the point of being seemingly unintentional.
If my understanding is correct, it would be difficult to have SH, on a good path, choose to spare both the Nightsong and her parents. That to me seems odd. If these extra cutscenes and flags are there to determine the outcome with her parents, why have them tied to Nightsong points on a good path?
It sounds to me like it works this way, to have her choose to spare her parents:
1. SH must have required approval
2. She must NOT have had the necessary flags to spare the Nightsong, hence the player talked her into that
3. She must have seen specific scenes in act 3.
Why tie this to the Nightsong at all in the good path? If she has already spared the Nightsong then having her choice tied to unlocking memories of growing up (parent flags) makes sense, but why should sparing the Nightsong impact that?
On the other hand, if on the evil path and assuming she had to be talked into killing the Nightsong, then I could see why she might choose to save her parents or at least refuse to kill them. But is that even what happens?
This is all confusing.
When I saw the title of this video I got really angry because I was like "they are just ripping off the work that one guy did in his secret Shadowheart mechanics breakdown" then I realized that you are actually the same person and I feel better now. lol
Give me some more time and I'll keep ripping myself off even more!
Can you fish out if Karlach's 4th wall breaking dialogue can be triggered ingame, without modifying the game files? Somebody announced a 500$ for it, and I think you can claim it (if it's possible) :P
Hah, yeah, I even commented about the topic on that video. The camera positions during the scene look clearly unfinished, popping around to weird spots and angles. The trigger is flagged as "IMPOSSIBLE" and the dialogue file itself has a developer note that says, "CURRENTLY CAN NOT BE TRIGGERED!" so I'm thinking it probably currently can not be triggered.
Is there a similar point system in place for how Lae'zel decides whether to defy Vlaakith or not, or to stay in Fae'run?
Point system, no. Just a few different flags based on your decisions. I plan to cover that and a bunch of other similar companion decisions in a round-up video.
i thought the parents sacrificing themselves to break Shar away from selunite Shadowheart was the right ending though, not some bug? huh?
Well, if your character doesn't say anything at all, (or isn't present in the conversation in the first place) Shadowheart will choose to sacrifice them, so maybe it is.
does astarion have a similar mechanic with becoming an Ascended vampire?
From what I have seen, it's simply a matter of him always wanting to, unless you stop him (or he can't). But I'm going to dig into it fully in a future video.
Aah, this makes so much sense! Loved your video on the Nightsong points and you explain everything so well again in this one. What tool did you use to browse the game's code/scripts at 2:50?
That is actually just a text editor, Notepad++. Much of the more code-ish scripts that I have seen are what the game files call, "Goals" and they can be extracted as basic text files.
Even though I've never managed to get her to save her parents by herself (due to this weird 'bug' in the code), I still convince her to do so. Finding her parents again, only to have to sacrifice them is Shar's final fuck you for trying to leave her service.
My attitude is, fuck Shar. Don't let her have the satisfaction. Taking her parents out of the cloister and enduring the wound anyway is Shadowheart's only way of giving the middle finger back to Shar. Her only way of actually saying no and sticking it to Shar. She'll be in pain, because Shar is petty like that, but if it were me, it would be worth it just to spite Shar.
Even when the parents want to die? Just for a "FU". I think, the better FU is to cross Shars plans, to free Níghtsong and SH and also tear doen her temples.
@@What_do_I_Think Her parents are willing to sacrifice themselves to free her from Shar. Because of course they are, they're her parents.
That's not the same thing as wanting to die.
@@TheLanceUppercut The motivation of the parents is not so clear, as you depict it. It can be both IMHO. Or can you give clear prove? I guess, no. It is just your personal impression / opinion.
@@What_do_I_Think I guess my proof is how happy they are as a family if they survive.
@@TheLanceUppercut Did you expect them to whine all day, just to show you differently. No proof at all.
Yo but she still decided to let them go…
0:29 You cheeky bastard XD
;)