The Problem With Disgaea (And Why It Can't Be Solved) | Static Canvas
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2024
- Disgaea is a strategy series that's all about big numbers, but the reality of achieving these numbers is far from glamerous. In this video I explore the issues I have found with the series as I got older, and why some criticism doesn't necessitate a desire for something to be fixed.
Music is from the Disgaea 5 soundtrack composed by Tenpei Sato
Static Canvas is written, recorded and produced by Thomas Ife, who clearly has too much time on his hands
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The strategy in this strategy rpg isn't in the battles, its in figuring out how to grind better.
The 2nd Strategy
XD
Agreed, 3 Playthroughs of Disgaea 4 and each one was quicker than the previous, 300,230,100 hours respectively til Land of Carnage access(PS3, Vita,PC).
@@TidusDX that's some dedication to one game in the series...
@@vyersreaver1749 many thousands of hours on their games. Some it is online games. For some it is on simulation games. And for some it is on grind games
@@vyersreaver1749 Definitely my dude. It's a personal favourite time-sink franchise for me.
There's something very satisfying about seeing big numbers on your character and one-shotting SuperBosses after doing all this grinding, or finding the Legendary Rank 39 item you need to get the ultimate weapon.
I've always said 'Disgaea is crazy anime chess with some math, Dragons and Universal Explosions. And talking penguins. 🐧'
The "problem" with Disgaea is only a problem if you make it one. I'm far from a casual player, have put hundreds of hours into each game, and have never aimed to beat Baal, or get to level 9999 (only did it once, in DD2, because it was fun and easy to do so!). I usually burn out long before that, but after hours and hours of satfisfying character development, item acquisition and customization/improvement (I spend most of my time in the Item World from the very first game), and setting up attack strategies I love watching set off. For any new people thinking of trying Disgaea - this review is misleading. Getting to Baal is completely optional, and part of the POST game. There is no rule saying you need to max your characters out and get to Baal at all to complete the game. Just enjoy playing however you like! There is no wrong way to play Disgaea. :)
Ngl idk why but reading your comment makes me wanna play disgae for the first time thanks for that never regretted this decision ever
I agree with you one hundred percent
Agree, this is also how I play 99% of the time (even though I do usually get tempted to defeat Baal at some point, but even then, I don't grind much)
the whole point of these games is crazy amounts of content. they've always been totally friendly to casuals and spergs alike. you get out of them whatever you want to get out of them.
I've never fought Baal, but grinding skill levels and weapon levels and customizing my characters and creating combos and watching the amazing (2D) animations, is why I played up until D5 and loved it. I still play D5 to this day from time to time
My main disagreement is that you didn't describe a problem.
The grind of disgaea and the high caps are exactly what makes it so great.
The grind is why I keep coming back to this series. I'm glad that 6 will take it up a notch
auto-battle & auto-replay
@@disgaealikerasapOG I'm already enjoying that on Disgaea 1 Complete for Android
Its gona be kicked up a notch and made easier. But anyone who has played the newer versions: auto battle isnt as powerful as people think
@@oldman747 they're fine tuning it for d6
@@disgaealikerasapOG i can guarantee there will still be things about it that isnt perfect. you wont be able to just walk away for 3 hours and come back to fully leveled char unless you have already done dozens of hours of preworks
This is an interesting perspective on the series, but I do have one issue. The grind can absolutely trivialize the puzzle aspects of the earlier games. My friend bought Disgaea 2 on PC a few months ago, and the first thing he did when he saw Etna in chapter 5 having a Testament was grind until he stole it, by making a dozen thieves and just spamming 1% steal rates. And no, no one told him to do this, he looked at no guides. It was just his instinct as someone that had played Disgaea 1. Now, that item alone can trivialize any of the game's early maps, make power farming the item world a breeze, but he took it a step further. He then went into the Testament and STOLE RANK 39 ITEMS. By chapter 6, his team was decked out in Infernal Armors, Longinuses, and Excaliburs. A few hours later, and his core team was over level 1000. At that point, there weren't any puzzles the game could throw at him that he couldn't just bumble through by being a sheer stat wall. The numbers are always the highlight of the series. In fact, I find it more enjoyable to figure out how to BREAK the game as early as possible. There's nothing more satisfying than walking up to the final boss a thousand plus levels higher than him, with equipment that makes his look like a toy spider ring.
How long did it take him to steal it?
Your friend is fucking amazing bro, this is definitely inspiring to read.
I'm totally the opposite, I avoid breaking the game or grinding/ playing as efficient as possible. I do a LOT of item world. Sometimes, I even like having classes that are very bad (at least in theory)
This process of trying to enjoy the game at your pace, making gimmicks to beat the game, grindfest, reading the story an all of that is the main goal of the game
Disgaea being a series that you can play the way you want, create OP units the way you want, and customize the experience the way you want, is probably what I personally think are the most defining features or at the very least the best features of disgaea games.
Up to 5 tthey kept improving on that formula.
6 was a huge step back
7 is a small step up again but still sucks in that regard.
Its stilly a mystery to me how the they didn't figute out how AI controlled battles works, when almost every other game out there already perfected it. They really try to reinvent the wheel, for no reason.
But yeah personally I always enjoy the first playthrough of the main story, or the challange maps, as the grind and your numbers up to that point are challanged and contested in fair ways, sometimes challanging. It the gind to 9999 was more padded out, in similar ways, the game be soooo much better.
Imagine advertizing a postgame boss as the main objective of the game. It's like saying that Ff9's goal is to beat Ozma or Tactics Ogre's true aim is to defeat Lans in the CODA using just Denam, Vyce and Catiua... It's wrong. Disgaea 1's main goal is to stop Vulcanus, Disgaea 2 is about stopping Zenon, Disgaea 5 is about beating Void Dark, Baal is just an optional fight.
Agreed, not enough value put on the main campaigns, which are usually decent at least, and also aren't nearly as grindy or requiring of research, though you still have to study what the game is showing you in order to do well. I try to recommend those portions of the game when I recommend Disgaea or the older off-series to anyone, the endgame is really only for those who 'just can't get enough' and are fine with what they're getting into.
I went throught the campaigns without grinding, its completely uneccessary to beat the main campaign and enjoy the game.
yea i haven't beaten a single disgaea game but i love them soo much
well i have not beaten any end bhaal but we dont need to go that far to enjoy the game.
@@rogerr.8507 true that
Exactly, you also never need "repetitive" grinding, sure, some maps seem designed for that, but you don't need to do them 100 times. I don't really grind in the post game, maybe a bit, I mean, in the end it's a lot more boring even if you can beat Baal 80 hours before or whatever, I'd still rather play the game instead of waiting for my stats to grow in Cave of Ordeals for 5 hours, thank you.
I can safely say I love the disgaea series but I've never gotten anyone to level 9,999 or fully explored understood all the mechanics in a single game in the series lol
And then there's me who just started the first game, and barely understands the mechanics outside what I know from Fire Emblem Fates. :)
I had a lvl 9999 nekomata from capturing it at red waterfall on the 10% lvl increase geo prism in Disgaea 2.
and that is perfectly fine, as long as u enjoy your experience that is what matters the most
@@naikou1633 there is nothing wrong with that
Once you get one character to level 9,999 in Disgaea 5 it's a matter of minutes to get other characters to that level. Often it only takes one tower attack to master each class. It's improving the stats that's a pain though. Gathering the shards, omg!
Please don’t ask for the game to be dumbed down or the many ways to progress to be simplified or streamlined
There are many tactical RPGs that are more streamlined and have fewer and less interlinked systems.
If Disgaea is. “Problem” for you, you might want to play something else.
Many love Disgaea for exactly the things you find problematic.
There has always been criticism for the series since D1 and they've continued to stick to their guns.
I always kind of saw Disgaea as answering a lot of FF Tactics' problems, including the ones with post-game content and grind. In FFT, end-game content was finite and getting max stats was super convoluted. In Disgaea, the post-game dungeon is infinite as are the item farming and the stat grinding actually makes sense and has systems in place to aid you.
But again, all of this shit was _optional_ . There's tons of fun to be had in FFT without ever touching Deep Dungeon. Same with Disgaea and item world. I'd argue Disgaea's biggest problem is throwing so much content at the player that there's no real mechanical focus to your team comps and it runs the risk of allowing any bland "strategy" to work. I want to _need_ my generic units, dammit.
Yeah but in a way disagea even solves this problem by allowing the players to make challenge maps for themselves and others. You can limit or cheat yourself as much as you want.
there's the word right there OPTIONAL that's something i think allot of people don't get about these games all of the grinding is optional, u dont have to play the game after u beat the story that is optional content and yes it is perfectly fine to stop playing after beating the story
My main problem was allways that there were way to many cool units and I could never use them all without grind because then they would be underleveled. If you just stick to your core members and never switch you can finish the campaign just fine without too much grind and that was enough for me. But allways felt like I left some cool stuff on the side lines. Kinda wish there was a mechanic that allowed you to use benched units a bit more or maybe even forces you to use different teams on different maps (like having two missions play at the same time so you can only use your units for one and the other has to be cleared by other units)
@@SangerZonvolt something like the wounded mechanic from the X-Com series could fix that, if after taking a certain amount of damage the units need to sit out the next map it would force u to think more about how u use your units and possibly force u to use more than just your core cast, but i doubt something like that would ever be implemented into a Disgaea game
@@FuryousD Nah, that takes freedom away from player. I think it is good enough in that aspect, it's not so bad, you can level them up at a somewhat decent rate if you equip them well. I personally think I tend to have a decent mixture of trying classes in new runs and doing that.
This was a well thought out video. I feel that D6 might be easier on time management, but as you said the first run (Story mode) is more about tactics and the second run (post game) is about POWER! This itself isn't a problem as you seek the power you had to learn tactics. You peer into the abyss and don't flinch. There's a reason why Baal got upgraded after 3 and those who seek to go further can.
Rozalin is my favorite dood
But don't tell master Etna 😏
im pre sure she already knows so no need to tell her
I won't if you won't dood
I prefer Rasberyl because her walking animation is so fucking adorable.
Rozalin is also my favorite dood
Usalia is my favourite character in disgaea 5 but in the older disgaea games fallen angel/angel trainee flonne Is my all time favorite.
the grind in disgaea is more engaging than other games tbh. Theres no dumb quest. No exploration, just grinding. The story is also pretty fun. All i gotta say really, if you lost love for it then no harm. Wish the series would evolve a bit more because i didn’t like 5 too much
Chel, what didn't you like about 5?
@@DatBoiRatchet well this was a year ago so i don’t remember what i was thinking back then, but i just didn’t vibe with the story and characters too much mostly. There also wasn’t enough change in the overall gameplay and feel of the game to really invest. It was by no means bad or anything, but i played every single Disgaea game as they came out (since 3 at least) so I wanted something more.
Disgaea 2 has some fun bad and worse endings!
If I remember well, most of those "fun bad endings" are accessible if you have managed to win an unfair battle that the game expects you to lose against.
With the power of grind its so fun seeing how hilariously anti-climactic these certain story bits had become.
Thank you so much for this video. There's not enough ppl talking about Disgaea or NIS stuff on TH-cam imo.
Zettai Hero Project, which is basically Disgaea mixed with a roguelike, is being rereleased in NIS Classics: Volume 2 and I recommend everyone play it if you have any interest in either of those things. It’s one of my favorite games of all-time and it deserves so much more recognition than its ever received. .
Disgaea puts the RPG in sRPG.
The progression in this game is something else
Me looking at Disgaea 6 and its level 99999999: eehhhmmmm...
epic
Yoooo is that pram from makai kingdom a game I wanna play but can't find a digital or physical copy of the game?
@@powerrangerblue8566 Yep. It is. I am also hoping a Makai Kingdom PC port is released,. Also, once you get it, it is completely worth it. It's my favorite game ever.
@@theermac6024 well I know it's basically phantom brave but with more mechanics from disgaea and not from phantom brave
@@powerrangerblue8566 I think so? I never played Phantom Brave. What I can say is the things Makai Kingdom did better than disgaea 1 and 2 for sure, but if I did, I'd rant for a while and spoil the game, so I won't
I still really enjoy Disgaea as an SRPG, when doing the story without any excessive grinding. It's fun to optimize combos, especially in games before Disgaea 5. where the target has to be the same to increase damage.
I love watching the new skills and character interactions
Disgaea is the only series that you can never be too strong. Other rpgs you break the game. In disgaea you end up being the appropriate amount of strength. If it's too easy then turn up the cheat shop and try again.
I love Disgaea and sometimes I think about going back to the classics. Then I remember the UI. God, it's abysmal
Disgaea 1 complete is a pretty good port I think and the steam version of Disgaea 2 has magichange and axel mode which is cool, but the UI is still the same. I never had a problem with the UI, though. Disgaea 2 is actually one of my favorite in the series. The kind of annoying things about it is that they got rid of staticians and the best grinding level is a 2 by 4 instead of a 3 by 3. The grinding to beat the final boss isn’t nearly as bad as Disgaea 5, though.
My favorite games in the series would have to be Disgaea 1, Disgaea 2, and Disgaea 4.
Disgaea 3, D2, and 5 all kind of fell into this category of okay, but not that good.
If you can handle old UI’s then Inwould definitely recommend some other old RPG’s from Nis America: Phantom Brave and Makai Kingdom. Though I haven’t been able to find a port for Makai Kingdom. They’re both like Disgaea except without the grids. They move based off of distances instead of squares. It’s a pretty fun mechanic and the variety of gameplay doesn’t disappoint while still being a fun grindy experience.
Disgaea games are all a giant puzzle, the further you get the more pieces are handed to you. The fun lies in that every piece is another puzzle, and it goes so far you can keep searching for bigger, better solutions. Disgaea's appeal is just that, it's, by design, almost infinitely complex. I may not have the time to create my squad of Baal killers, but I can say for certain figuring out solutions to shorten the grind and using the different systems is entertaining as hell!
Disgaea is like comfort food for me but I have more nostalgia for the first when there we're so many leveling systems piled on top of eachother. The battle between demons, Angels and humans is still the most enjoyable narrative.
It's both sad, and nostalgic to think ill never have the time and imagination I once did as a kid
There is only 1 problem with Disgaea, and it's called Disgaea RPG.
6:50 Ahhh... You and I play the game very differently then. Or, at least, see it very differently.
I see Disgaea as a series of steps, each one interesting in it's own right. I don't care what the final destination is; I know I'll get there eventually. I care about what I can do right now. Or, what I'll be able to do shortly.
I completely agree with the video. However the Mindless Grind is the drug that I play these games for. I don't know why but I'm one of those Gamers that just like to shut my brain off for hours, put on a Podcast and Zone out while getting my Stats up. I've been playing Disgaea since the First 1, and this series just scratches that itch in so many ways. Not to mention the amazing Character designs, awesome Music, hillarious Story and Writing and the over the top Anime Specials, and everything else just makes My Goblin Gamer brain go Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Disgaea 6 Is going to be epic, Seriously when everyone else freaked out about Monster hunter, D6 was the Game that probably got me many noise complaints from my Neighbors. I never squealed so much for a game reveal since Kingdom Hearts 3 (Which I enjoy greatly, the DLC fixed any issues I had with it.)
Hope to see you in the Trenches Mate, also Great video, Editing is a bit rough, but I see great Potential, Maybe punch up the Pacing a bit next time, but not too much because of your Monotone Delivery wouldn't fit, but interested on seeing more from you!
My mindset to getting to lv9999 in disgaea 2 is that I have nothing else to do but grind cause I am lacking one thing to say I've finished the entire game (including post game) and that is prinny x or was it pringer x I forgot but the op prinny robot stage the final one with max level robot prinny that requires max stats and buff to beat which I may not be able to do it but I like raising my characters stats
Agree 👍
I have never seen someone miss the point of an entire series so hard. (Except NIS with Disgaea 6, which goes to show that your assertion as to the point of these games misses the mark quite hard)
1) Baal is not advertised as the final boss of any of these games. Disgaea 1 has Vulcanus and Lamington, Disgaea 2 has Overlord Zenon(fake), Disgaea 3 has Super Hero Aurum, Disgaea 4 has Judge Nemo, Disgaea D2 has Xenolith, Disgaea 5 has Void Dark and Disgaea 6 has... well I have too much self respect to play Disgea 6 long enough to complete the story, but I think its your pet dog? Each of these goals when you play them straight out can take the entire run-time of the average $60 release, and is where almost all of each respective game's narrative occurs.
2) As Disgaea 6's inflated starting stats prove, having bigger numbers alone isn't the goal of the series. The goal is the slow, 9,000,000 step journey from a lv.1 character who will struggle to break into the triple digits to a universe destroying god dealing billions if not trillions of damage depending on the game. There is a reason people are celebrating what seems to be a return to lower starting numbers, because the lower you start the more satisfying each step of our journey becomes.
3) The endgoal isn't Baal, while Baal(or usually Prinny Baal or some other reincarnated variant) may be the final Superboss, the actual goal isn't Baal, the goal is to grind and to find ways to grind faster and smarter. Getting to 9999 seems like a meaningless accomplishment when you compare it to Baal's multi-million point start advantage, but when you get your first character to 9999 and view the journey and planning you used to get there it is undeniably an achievement.
4) The strategy that goes into Disgaea by large isn't actually the strategies employed during battle(though if you choose to limit your grinding when playing the story it very well can be) but the strategies you choose to employ in order to strengthen your characters. For example in Disgaea 5 they made it so that when you heal a character you gain exp based on the levels of the characters you heal, so in Disgea 5 my first characters to hit lv.9999 were those with access to healing spells whom I would group up in the poison of poisondise and have them rotate casting AoE spells to heal the entire group back up to max hp each turn because it provided much faster exp gains than anything else I had unlocked. Then when I unlocked the actual grinding maps I discovered that the lv.9999 units I already possessed could be used to expedite the raising of other units via Magichange applying an effective use for my lv.9999 units even if their stats didn't even begin to compare with Baal's.
So the long and short of it is that these issues aren't actually issues if you understand the core appeal of the series as games that can be played almost infinitely with the goal being the journey from taking potentially hundreds of hours to max a single character to using all of the tricks you discovered and unlocked along the way to max out later characters in under an hour. If the game was about hitting for big numbers and toppling superbosses with mind-numbingly huge stats then Disgaea 6 would have been a smash hit among the fanbase instead of being derided as the worst product in the series.
You do realize your complaining about stuff that is optional right? You don't need to beat every post game boss & max out your characters, that's something your subjecting yourself to.
Hi ! very cool video ! Just watched this morning on of the latest video on disgaea 6 , they seems to add functons to help grinding like 8x speed autobattle with IA customisation ! So infinite AFK grind ahead , oh god .....
The problem with disgaea is TH-camrs bolstering the myth that you need to participate in the grind to make posing three games worthwhile. If the thought of that causes you anxiety, then don't do. Play the campaign then put the game down.
I don't see it as a problem at all. It just means the game is designed for power seekers. It's basically how I play every game anyways, so this game series is just fantastic to me. Other games they'll do things like boost 1 quest for a week, and then I play that quest 24/7 for that week and find it incredibly boring. Disgaea is great since the whole game is based around power seeking so that you can still use a lot more parts of the game in your power seeking quest. I don't find it boring at all.
This is pretty much my exact feelings on the franchise. I got into the series with DS1(PC) after being enchanted with the art style for years but never owning a Playstation console to play them. I grinded DS1 but never really attempted the post-game. I got DS3, 4 and D2 when I got a used PS3 and though I attempted feebly to go further with DS4 I did only a portion of the post game before becoming numb to it.
I wanted DS5 to be the game which I did the entire post game. I never managed to defeat Baal because I got completly sick of the grind to the point where playing the game was an active chore.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention how the journey becomes meaningless. After nearly 400 hours of game time to try and reach a mythical end boss I was not only incredibly bored but the characters, the main selling point had been reduced to 0's and 1's. The game gives you the ability to level all stats to max and even move powerful abilites to other characters so characters just lose their unique appeal over time.
It's funny. The thing that sticks in my mind about DS5 is actually a moment in the game where the lead character succumbs to his 'darker' impulses. You actually get to control this moment and it's enthralling and terrifying mowing down enemies in seconds that would take minutes with your normal stats.
As you mention the series has embraced it's number niche and it's unlikely to drop that. I just don't think grind for the sake of grind is fun. I think, like me, a lot of people love the bombastic characters, bizaare worlds and sillyness. I honestly think the grind could be scaled down, bloated game size could be reduced and it would benefit the game franchise.
I still have a certain fondness for Disgaea but I get more joy looking through the artbooks for the series than playing the games because despite huge graphical increases since the Ps2 the art for the series is a better representation of it's soul.
I actually disagree with this. Disgaea has always been about grinding since the first game (which released way back for the PS2). It always advertised itself as a grindfest (and most people know about it due to how "grindy" it is more than they do due to the characters), in fact each entry adds new mechanics to test how it can improve on said grinding for future games, like how Disgaea 2 added the Felony system but then it was scrapped altogether. Asking to "tone it down" on the grinding would be the same as asking for a shooter game to not include so many shooting mechanics, or for a RPG to not include so much customization simply because it isn't your cup of tea.
About the postgame: This is something that actually irks me, the fact that people complain about it being difficult and a "chore" even though it's optional content. You have the main story in which you can enjoy the game as a casual to the point you don't even need to grind that much to beat it (in fact, you can actually play it strategically if you want, it's just not really encouraged), the postgame is just for the people who want to play with the game itself to test its limits and see how big the numbers can go. Sure, it has "bits of story", some of which "might" tie up loose ends, but the few scenes it usually has are like less than 3 minutes of dialogue which you can easily TH-cam it if you want to see what you've missed on storywise. Baal isn't even mentioned at all in the main story (ignoring Disgaea 3 I think?) and you wouldn't even know that he exists unless you played through the postgame, so his impact is barely noticeable at all.
And no, you don't really need a "reason" to play through it or not, the same way a speedrunner doesn't needs to play the same game over and over again to learn how fast they can beat it, or the same reason why, say, a pianist would play the same song over and over on the piano, or why some people might read books that they might never even talk about with anyone. YOU don't like it? That's fine. But don't ask for something to change its core identity just because it doesn't fit your tastes, you might as well wish for NIS to go bankrupt because I hardly doubt Disgaea, as a franchise, would be bought by its stories alone (especially since its too "weeby" which would turn off a lot of people who aren't that much into anime in the first place). They tried that angle you want with Disgaea Infinite (a visual novel for the PSP), which included the fan favourite trio from 1, and it was their worst selling game in the franchise.
Finally, "reducing the bloatness" wouldn't benefit the franchise, just look at what happened with Disgaea 6 when they tried to do that, its reception was mostly negative, especially compared to 5.
I don't think that this is a bad vid but i do think that the main focused is on disgaea 5 not any Disgaea
a few thing i think isn't fact , it is opinion or isn't clear
it's for people that love the grind it's all about grinding to be the very best
I'm about 6 minutes into the video and I'm still not seeing how this is a bad thing.
You make good points, but I think it is a matter of taste. I enjoy the series, but I hate grinding and tend to do what I can at minimum level to eek out as much challenge as I can. Defeating enemies with triple my stats is cathartic and rewarding, but I understand the appeal of a power fantasy. Rarely do I actually defeat Baal in these games as the grind becomes rather unreal, though I forced myself to sit down and 100% La Pucelle. The post game grind just isn't for me.
Disgaea is like a cross between a tactics rpg and an idle clicker.
Get big numbers so you can do harder content to get bigger numbers. Less engaging than a straight trpg, less mindless than an idle game, and more tedious than both. But for some reason, still appealing
First time play disgaea when i was a teen. back then i tough this game was lame and hard..
but now adult me now understand how satisfying the system and post game can deliver to you
I don't like one thing about this... you're not treating it as military strategy but rather biased strategy.
Military Strategy involves using tactics which range from positioning, deception, to even raw power to solve problems while anticipating what your enemy will do. Raw power is a viable strategy but to get it is still complex. Not only must you be sufficiently stronger, but you must have a large enough gap for this to be viable.
To fight Baal, in D5, you must be able to survive 4 free attacks as you deploy. This is the minimal requirements to use characters on the map... but if I recall he does SP damage as well so you must be able to either raise your HP/SP to negate this loss, or bring tools to fix this in terms of spells or items.
This is all strategy... but what is a better one to use?
It is case by case, real strategy.
If I see a map filled with complex tiles... the goal is not static.
I can remove them, or attempt to overpower them.
In the story maps you praise the earlier entries for... a smart thing was to use a Mage, destroy them from across the map, and then win the fight. Rather then waste a bunch of time try to solve the rotational gravity of a sparrow over the moon under the west wind of... well you get the point.
It isn't Disgaea is flawed in how it handles it, rather how society handles those concepts.
I mean heck, even the first Disgaea game literally has you go to war with the humans or fight over the crown, the second is also similarly going to war against a corrupt ruler. The fourth is also a war simulator... and the fifth is blunt about it. A strategy RPG is a war game.
...just like Final Fantasy Tactics was or how every Fire Emblem seems to focus on war.
The thing is JRPGs where never really meant to be "hard" because they always have a way to "kill easy things to get stronger" turn based JRPGs fall into this more than others but you can even see it in things like dark souls. people can one shot most bosses in those games with the right build. I play disgaea for the fun story and as a collection game. it's a bit mindless but just endlessly going through the idea world to steal items you havent gotten yet is just enjoyable and relaxing to me. I have truly 100% 2 disgaea games already and planning to do another one soon.
Thanks for this video! Glad TH-cam recommended it to me, but this video really encapsulates something I and my friend have been butting up against for the last several years. He got me into Disgaea but as time went on we kept feeling more and more disenfranchised and I think this numbers thing is part of why we liked it as teens, since we had so much time, but also why it's hard to love it as adults, even the mechanics of things like the writing and characters aside. Cheers, I look forward to more.
They way I describe these games is that there are 3 walls, 1st wall is getting to lv 200, 2nd wall is getting to lv 1k, 3rd wall is leveling gear
I was obsessed with this franchise after I picked up the DS version of the first game back when I was a teenager. Spending all summer grinding the hell out of that game til I had nothing left of it. I eventually found the 2nd game on the psp and did the same with it and loved it. Now that I'm an adult with a family and a work life to keep up with, I just can't put in what I need to, to enjoy the series anymore and it's a shame because I miss being so enthralled by these games.
I do think NIS could get a lot of mileage out of putting a few constraints on the geo panel rng such that item world floors generated better geo puzzles so chaining geo effects could become a viable item world grinding stat instead of just putting a bunch of shoes on a moth.
I entirely agree that the item world needs a generation update as it really doesn't seem to change in any real degree between the games and is probably the most stagnant feature in the games.
I have recently played through both Disgaea 2 and 4 and the item world (minus the felony stack gimmick in 2) don't really seem to have any real difference in them.
Also I just want to point out that Disgaea is really special type of game were the sentence of "Putting a bunch of shoes on a moth." makes complete sense to most players.
Maybe I'm just in a different camp, but I've always been a huge fan of the Disgaea games and love playing through their stories, but have absolutely no desire to do the grinding stuff for the end game. Once I see the credits roll through the main story and do some cool stuff with my favorite units, I'm good and feel like I've had a satisfying experience. It took me about 130 hours before I beat the main story of Disgaea 5 and I really loved every hour of it and wanted to spend even *more* time with it, but I put it aside for the next game in my queue and am saving that desire for *more* for Disgaea 6.
A good example of his opening statement is Goku used to be my favorite DBZ character and now I actually genuinely hate him and my new favorite is Piccolo.
Perspective does indeed change as we grow.
im so hyped for d6, its been too long, but as long as it good it will be worth the wait.
Looking good...
I need a demo!
And I haven't beaten the CARNAGE PRINNY yet!
So, I bought it in Japanese and played through it. The story is repetitive. Every chapter involves you fighting the same dude in a different setting. The characters are kind of interesting but also fairly derivative. The mechanics are all borrowed from the previous games, but it's simpler than 5. There are less things to grind than D5, and the end-game is empty. You grind using an auto-battle system so the game becomes an idle game, which is fine, but there isn't anything to grind towards. There is no Baal or similar challenge. After playing for around 130 hours, I felt a bit ripped off. I definitely got my money out of it, but it didn't give me what the other games did. Normally, I would get a big pay off at that point with a big boss fight, but that wasn't there, at least in the JP version. Maybe, once they port it, they'll add an actual boss to fight, but idk, I was underwhelmed.
“Worth the wait”
“Worth the wait”
“WORTH THE WAIT”
*getting Half-Life 3 flashbacks* GAAAAAAABEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!
watching this after playing disgaea 7, the franchise is still doing well for itself, always adding a bit more to the table everytime
the nostalgia will always be there but I do enjoy the newest installment a lot
I think the real way disgaea shines as a strategy game, is actually when you try to complete the challenges without achieving those big numbers and max stats. As a rule I’ve set for myself, I try to finish the main story with the hellish 20 difficulty on from the earliest point I can clear every map at said difficulty. I feel it helps approach the elements of the grind with a more agreeable difficulty curve. Especially if you carefully utilize the item world to do so. Making everything in the game a more considerable challenge, so that the experience is more rewarding out the gate.
I wish Disgaea 6 had a lot more classes. I hope they add more characters.
Thy have!
I do not remember D6 getting more characters, have not seen any news on it recently. Not that I was expecting any. I know D7 is confirmed to have a much larger roster then D6. Also the main cast looks more interesting then what we got in D6, the story did not have a lot going for it.
The only issue I find with Disgaea is they changed how they make the games after Disgaea 5. They changed the animations and sprites.
Ummm but disgaea 4 didn't have any of these things? It only takes 100 hours to max everything and also if you know everything about the previous games going in blind isn't hard
I think the problem here is seeing Baal and level 9999 as must-do's, rather than a tangible reason to push all the numbers to their limits and take full advantage of the game's systems.
Disagree, it took a lot of strategy just to win over carnage Baal at 20 stars. At that point you're just going full glass cannon and trying to kill him before he can even act. As the Disgaea series progresses, the grind gets EASIER and easier, not harder, it just gets more complex where Lv 9999 isn't the end. You can beat the main story without any grinding.
Now Disgaea 6 is much harder to beat the final Baal on the hardest difficulty, you have to do crazy things just to get your stats on equal footing
The first game I have over 1000hrs on and still never reached lv 9999...that’s gotta say something. I love the series but even the characters seem more one dimensional to me in the more current titles. I am still going to buy disgaea 6 but it’s kinda sad.
You are lying there’s no way you can have 1k hours and haven’t reached 9999 just say you haven’t reached 9999 and don’t lie that you have 1k hours
Mate, it takes me 30 minutes to reach lv9999 after reincarnation in DD2. 1000 hours is enough to max out all the characters in the game, let alone reaching lv9999.
You are absolutely underrated my good sir
I know this is an unpopular opinion amongst other Disgaea fans but I always thought it would be really cool to add fighting game inputs or mini games with the Skills to either get the maximum damage or combos out of them.
I was gearing up to argue 😂😂😂
You had us in the first half.
I like how you explain the game, I suggest adding close caption, so I could clearly understand you and can simply watch the vid while I am working. :P
the problem isnt looking up info off the net,its from NIS not releasing anymore solid strategy guide books as they did for Disgaea1,2 and soul namad.their still continuing the guilds in japan
I always find it difficult to criticize the things i like more than just giving little minor complaints (Like Blue Dragon on Xbox 360 lagging a little too often during fights) but the fact that you made an entire video basically criticizing the series at it's core and yet still say that its something you enjoy and look forward to playing and seeing in the future boggles my mind because it's not something I'm used to as I've never been able to do that. Criticizing a series you like confuses me, but i respect it.
You've never criticized a game that you loved? I do it all the time. I'm a big Persona fan but i can point out tons of flaws and things i hate about each game. But even if i did that, that doesn't mean i still don't love and enjoy the games.
It makes sense, I also criticize a lot of games I love. In fact, I am positive I tend to be spend more time criticizing games I love than the ones I don't because first thing those are mostly the games I play the most so I know them a lot better than the games I dislike. Example, I could criticize Disgaea for 10 minutes the same way he did, because I can talk a lot about how the maps are designed, how balanced or unbalanced everything is, I know all the systems. I played LOL and I really didn't like it, the main criticism I have of it is that it's too hard to get into and it's boring, I couldn't talk 5 minutes about it because I spent like 1 hour playing it once and I was bored. The other aspect is that I just care more about the games I like so I want them to be the best. Sure, I like Pokemon, I can make a fair critique of most of the generations, and while that would be an option, if I was to have a real discussion I'd rather have it about disgaea because even if the next Pokemon game is considerably better I just don't care about it as much as I do for other games I really love. And if I was talking about a series or a whole genre I really didn't care for (I still like Pokemon, I play a good amount of games from the series), then it would be even worse. Even if Counter Strike turned into a flawless masterpiece, I probably still wouldn't care as much as the worst Disgaea or SMT game, because FPS games just don't matter to me... Sure, if someone was like, the new FPS game on the market is so much better than the last one and I felt like saying something I would, but I only criticize games that I feel have at least some potential to be of interest to me and that I would be willing to spend MONEY on...
resumen del video : no hay estrategia a la larga. todo lo que importa es levelear cientos de horas para vencer de un golpe al malo final. estoy viejo y ya me da flojera seguir con esto.
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gracias
Disgaea 6 might just be the best introductory game to the series. They've found a way to increase the numbers AND reduce the grind to get your numbers that high. It's very welcoming to have that Lv.9999 and reincarnate system be a part of the story and not a part of "What do I do now that the story is over, and I have a spare 2000 hours of free time?" For people who want something to do after the story is over, well, that's where the new Lv. 99'999'999 limit comes into play, although I wish they had made that clear in their advertising rather than letting it be implied that you can just get to Lv. 99'999'999 like it's something you can expect to do in the main campiagn
On top of that, getting their audience to learn a bit of programming as another option to get those numbers up high. Big fan of sneaking educational content into a game as a JRPG mechanic.
"It's kinda like Dark Souls but instead of Lore it's spreadsheets"
omfg so true
I think the problem is that people are trying to find a problem with disgaea, its literally a game that is self aware that its a game, characters that ridiculous amounts of damage, crazy levels, and just overall fun with nice visual not to mention the ocassional references the games make
Every few months I come back to watch this vid, it's so well made
Edit: I'm back again
Must say that the games are a really enjoyable experience even without post game or barely any of it, speaking from my experience in D1.
In D2 i came back after 4 years really missing in it. I had stuck to a plethora of gacha games, FEH, FGO, Genshin, Arknights, GBF, AL...but always felt like they all were missing personality, personalization, freedom. I came back immediately researching how to explore every single cranny of content D2 had to offer. DLC, secret characters, extra stages. How to add some "HD" sprites to it. The actual post game. The grind really is nothing compared to your average gacha game really, many times i felt what you said about leveling not mattering from the perspective i was too strong for higher level opponents always with unleveled gear or no gear at all. Ive been delaying me beating the game completely by starting new characters, because i can't stop having fun making more characters viable to wherever point in the game im in. This game really is for me even more now than before i went to gacha hell.
While I do disagree with you on some points, I like how well thought out and well presented this was.
I'm a hardcore Disgaea fan and I have to agree with both of your points: Indeed, Disgaea lacks comprehensive knowledge available, and also it suddenly forgot puzzles.
I disagree however in the part of this not having a solution, as it seems simple as to just make more knowledge available and put more emphasis on puzzles.
P.S. 1: Lol the carnage eclair strategy is now outdated and replaced by the mushroom soup one.
P.S. 2: That's the ugliest Sera I've ever seen.
Good video, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Agree
So... You are correct but for me I'm so excited. I played disgaea 1 to it's fullest. However, THANKFULLY, I did not go so hardcore into 4/5, though I played them greatly. This paves the way ever so brighter for the 3d and mega leveling aspects to 6 that have me super hyped to --hopefully-- tear into it's entire being, like I did with the original.
Its not a problem in the game.
Your mind is the issue, to yourself.
Man, I love Disgaea. It’s my favorite series. But, I’ve criticized Disgaea 5 like crazy. It’s one of my least favorite ones in the series. I feel like being able to recruit already leveled units makes capturing enemies feel much less rewarding. Getting staticians became way too easy and was underwhelming when I realized that level 9999 didn’t even make me that powerful. I feel like the older games had much better post game because the amount of grinding between each challenge became a bit excesive. I replayed Disgaea 1 recently and it didn’t take me long at all to beat Baal compared to D5 and there where a lot of chalenges in between him and the the final boss to keep me invested and as good benchmarks to strive for. Disgaea 6’s levels where either way too easy or way too hard and hardly any in between. I felt like the numbers just got a bit too bloated. Another issue I had was the cheat shop. Being able to change the enemies level at the drop of a dime felt nice at the moment, but it really messed with the gameplay in the long run. Sometimes I’ll get caught up with grinding and turning the levels up to get more experience and then the next few chapters get far too easy. I think post game would’ve been a better fit for that function. And I know I could’ve just kept the levels high, but then everyone I didn’t grind would be waaay too weak and it would defeat the whole point of me grinding to begin with. One of the biggest problems I can think of is how they made the unique classes less important. Like, in the older games many of the classes had different functions and a good reason to have at the ready, but now they take what makes the classes unique (their evilities) and let other people have them. It’s a fun function, but it ruins the whole purpose of having varied units late game.
I think overall there are just a bunch of quality of life improvement that they shouldn’t have done and make the game just feel more hollow. I don’t like the innocence farm because it makes innocence too easy too collect and a less valuable resource (which I guess it is because of how ludicrous the late game stats get) even staticians start feeling pretty useless once you can get to level 9999 in a few fights and it hardly makes a dent in your late game stats. I kind of want reaching max level to mean something you know. I want it to be a challenge and for staticians to be hard to collect and I want you to actually feel powerful and accomplished when reaching it. I didnt get that feeling with Disgaea 5 and I don’t think that Disgaea 6 is going to renege on any of these quality of life changes. I think it just made the whole game feel more hollow.
I’m probably still going to play Disgaea 6 and I hope that they manage to strike a fun balance with other mechanics now that they’ve made some of the other mechanics feel hollow.
Sorry for the rant. I probably could have gone into more specifics or been more comprehensive, but it’s been a few years since I played Disgaea 5 and I can’t remember all of my criticisms perfectly. I just know that D5 kind of disappointed me with a terrible story (IMO) and a lot of mechanics that where too streamlined too feel rewarding this time around .
Agreed, agreed, agreed!...I really liked 5, though. 6...I haven't even finished the main story yet. It got too hard toward the end, and I just didn't give enough of a shit about my characters to bother leveling them up. They've stripped all of the uniqueness out of them, and made it too easy to cheat. I liked the first incarnation of the cheats, but now it's just become too much....then again, I've never been in it to get to Baal. Just loved creating and building my team from scratch, setting up elaborate attack strategies, then watching them go, and tweaking my items, especially to build up weaker characters and help try to balance them out. That was such a big part of the fun of the game for me, but now it's just so easy to cheat everything...why bother? I mean...it auto-plays! Setting up attacks and triggering them was like setting up dominos for me, but what's the point now? I hope the next installment - if there is one - is more true to the first 5 games (and also DD2 - that was a blast, and the only time I ever got to Baal!), and lets you get back to customizing and really getting to know your team!
As a adult, I definitely just don’t have the time to fully commit to Disgaea’s post game section. I do play through the base story though. So like, maybe 5% of the needed investment to beat the post game. Currently playing the first one. About half way through the main story but I highly doubt I have the gumption to chase after the goal of beating Baal.
To be frank, no other sRPG I played (besides maybe The Battle for Wesnoth, if you consider it one) was as tactically satisfiable and challenging (not necesserily hard, but requiring critical thinking and out of the box strats) as Disgaea 5. If you say that at some point of the late game big numbers outshine any semblence of strategy, then yes, I would agree. But if you say that no part of Disgaea provides challenging sRPG gameplay, then I would not agree.
Honestly, there's a lot of stuff like this in a game I play called "ReBless Zwei"... Only that's a gacha game...
So while everything on it can be done for free, you still get more progress MUCH faster if you spend. If Disgaea's big numbers and repetitiveness gets to you, then ReBless Zwei is likely WORSE considering your grind per day is limited, more so if you don't spend.
Just for a comparison, it was mentioned that the inflated numbers don't feel like they matter much. That would be the same case for ReBless Zwei since you'll start with a meager 1k-10k Combat Power with maybe HP in the thousands, then later on you can spike CP into the BILLIONS and have numbers looking like Disgaea's endgame. The character levels are lower sure, but there's MANY ways to spike stats like atk and HP in that game.
I think these games are more suited to people like me who actually LIKE seeing the huge numbers and don't mind the climb to get there. But there definitely are people who actually see the huge numbers or get into the grind and think "this isn't for me".
if they don't call the complete edition 6.66 then they're wrong.
Disgaea suffers from the same power curve as stuff like modded MC. If you are playing be the most efficient time to Baal that is fine, if you are dipping your toes in the numbers to push the story along that's fine too. But there is a middle ground playstyle where you are kind of going for OP but not completely invested. That's like you said, that 9999 isn't that great. You can get it easily with the item trick. It is bad not because of the lack of significance but because you do not have a use for that power. If there was more mechanics to pad it all the way it would be fine, even if it is still just as grind. It is simple a problem of the sunken middle or 0->100. You either have a workable tolerable grind/automation or you don't. In other words Disgaea is a good foundation to a non-existent game - where you have to put your numbers against large issues. Like maybe having a city sim in the pocket dimension properly would do it. Scale has to exist materially as scale, it can't just be flat digit. Vector > scalar, otherwise then it is just a mathematics game, that's why that added autobattle in D6, that is basically the game devs giving up unfortunately. Just the same with having 1000 double chests of diamonds in MC, the grind is fun but really it is missing the chemical x to light up the real game. The main reason it hasn't been done is because it is hard to program a stable dynamic system, not because of hardware limitation. Anyway, I should get back to programming so I can show not tell hehe.
You got me with that "You sunuvabitch, I'm in" bit.
Great job not giving spoilers!
This franchise is now on mobile and its perfect
You know another word for grind is gameplay loop, and disgaea gameplay loop is addictive so its not a problem
It's a niche game, what make it bad for most, it's what make it fun for others. The thing is, d6 tried to bring the auto-battle and it kinda sucks for most of the fans.
If you like handcrafted maps and challenges then you’d love Disgaea 7, they brought the strategy back and even in item world i have to dodge enemies and still haven’t killed a boss in IW due to how crazy the scaling gets now by the timw you’re at 10th floor
True. Disgaea can't solve the problem of getting older...
Disgaea 1 doesn't really have this problem
Playing normally is enough to find golem farm and unlock most classes
And golem farm (and thief hand) is enough to beat Baal and his prinny version
When someone says "The problem with Disgaea..." - *he* is the problem.
How is it a problem if the series itself doesn't consider it to be one? The game flat out spell it out to you that there will be grinding involved at some point. If you don't like grinding or simply don't have the time for it then it isn't really a game marketed towards you. Hence, what you call a problem isn't one.
As many has said, early game you learn the mechanics and experience puzzles and challenges. The post game is for power seeking and grind. The post game does have its share of puzzle solving. Take the item level for example. It is randomly generated and could have GEO Panels laid out that you need to use for your best interest. I always take joy in figuring out how to maxing out my Bonus meter in the item world to get some useful items in it.
You can use the item world to grind up amazing gear and levels easily and you can tower up from the first battle on to beat down every enemy with next to no prep. I've almost hit max level items and I've only been at it for about 12 hours. The trick of digaea is indeed how you want to take the journey.
I love the “Disgaea” series, but I neither have the time nor the discipline to do all of that to beat Ba’al. More power to those that do, I just don’t have the drive for that.
I love this series. But i miss phantom brave it may have been a spinoff but it still was a game i enjoyed alot. It was for all intestines Purpose my disegea 3. Saber kitty for life lol
My wife has never played endgame disgaea. Cause there is a total game you can play without doing it. You make it seem like the only way to play the game is to go deep endgame. The story is great and the story is fun
Okay, so probably because I've been watching the trailers for D6 is why I got this. But yeah, I picked it up on DS back when I was about 14ish, and while I.... for lack of a better word, hated myself back then, I couldn't help but wanting to be Etna or Flonne and just, this was like watching anime that *I* starred in! But I did get bored of the grind because well.... didn't have the knowledge on how to look it all up, Google was only a few years old at the point, TH-cam had just come out! Like.... none of it existed.... so me being me I went and did something else. I think FE Shadowdragon at the time because I had just as much a backlog then as I do now.... though now I really do have time with being a Navy Vet with a seizure disorder that gets worse and worse under stress and all, so I plan on capping up at least the MC in D6 and all his stats and everything! Cause I want to do that at least once in the series.
I was playing disgaea 6 for 130 hours and the truth is, I can't take it anymore. I started a game again in disgaea 5, The characters, the story, (some mechanics as well) of disgaea 5 are superior in every way. and the grinding is not so bad.I personally enjoy a lot more disgaea 5 than disgaea 6. In my humble opinion i don't wanna huge numbers, i just want a quality game.
The next installment apparently implements autobatteling so it grinds itself. You can even "program" the AI kinda similar to carnage hearts flow chart model so it performs better.
6:50 YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!
I absolutely adore the original Disgaea’s, but from I’d say 4 onwards the story (albeit it’s always been goofy) is where the story started not to matter and characters became shallow husks. Disgaea 1 and 2 are amazing as well as Phantom Brave. Now it’s just a number crunch simulator :/ Now they think just raising level caps and bigger numbers makes up for the lack of actual strategy.
Pretty sure that’s why NIS almost went bankrupt l.
Disgaea is the only rpg that spends just as much time in the menus as you do playing. Disgaea 6 is interesting in letting autobattles be a thing. To get the most out of disgaea you must play the story as normal as you can then post game you turn off all the animations and start grinding.
My thing is the final ultimate challenge and it's reward for completing it, is nothing. Being able to stop playing the game?
So i'll agree to the 'why it can't be fixed' because what could be included or offered after conquering the games final true challenge that would be satisfying?
I can't think of almost any 100% completion bonuses/rewards I believe are truely worth it. So determining one for Disgaea ... I'm at a loss.
Unlock playable Baal - Idc , Unlock a superduper item world - Idc , Unlock some cameo/guest character - Idc, Unlock the entire Disgaea 1 Anime remastered - Idc.
So there lies my problem as someone whose beaten Baal and Prinny Baal etc in many of the games. It leaves me feeling empty and hollow not rewarded, triumphant or fulfilled.
I do find enjoyment making my characters powerful and having a goal to reach. Just that when the dust settles and I've reached that... Well I already said it.
Oh you must love the auto battle/auto retry system in 6 due to all the time they save, honestly I got to beat Baal (regular one) in two months from starting the game and am now grinding to beat him at 20 star.
Yeah those moments happen Dood
I STRONGLY disagree with most of what you said. Disgaea for me has always been "grind the game", and I'm saying that as a compliment. I'm a sucker for grind, but of course there's bad grind and good grind. Disgaea to me is a perfect example of good grinding. I don't even like TRPG, yet I am hooked on Disgaea, having hundreds upon hundreds of hours in it.
You mentioned that it isn't about the journey. But I disagree. 95% of my time in Disgaea has been spent grinding up my character. I did that despite not even particularly caring about the destination (I.e the end boss). I simply did it because the act of seeing your character progress to infinite heights was extremely satisfying. Even though I didn't do it in order to reach some end goal.