A very powerful demonstration of just why I quit apologetics. I am going to be referencing this one again and again. Job VERY WELL done gents! Thanks for the quick pat on the back as well.
I just had a huge unexpected fight about the church with some family members today in which I was bombarded by lots of anger and resentment, etc. It's been a while since I've been emotionally hurt this much, and so my heart is weighing heavy today. Lots of gaslighting and blaming me for nonsensical things (losing the faith and being sexually assaulted on my mission and whatnot), and I just gotta say that I appreciate the work you guys do. You remind me that I'm not insane and that the truth is more important than making other people feel comfortable by pretending to believe what they want you to believe. No idea if that made sense
Jon, I know how difficult your situation is. I can relate. I like the thought that "What others think of you is none of your business.". You are very sane. Follow your inner voice and find your own happiness, no matter what that looks like. Your journey is yours alone. Look for the recent you tube video Steve Young made. It's excellent.
Fantastic episode all - thank you for all your work. We are 1 year sober from Mormonism 🥳 and you guys have played a huge part in our family’s decompression from the cult and being able to unpack the crazy - thank you so much 😊
Hands Down, the most applicable episode on the Church I've listened to. Actually listened once and watched the second time. Lies, are the toughest hurdle when communicating with family members who are still in the church. I have been frustrated on so many levels, as my mother ages and I have to work with my TBM family, now I can see with clarity. 37 years out, I was able to distance, now I'm thrown into the mix as we maneuver aging, illness and death...I cannot Thank you enough for doing this work.
Same. I might have been able to deal with it had they been forthright all along. But when I realized they expected a standard of honesty from me they weren't willing to provide.
@@SilentThundersnow It's my brainwashing thinking kicking is ... cognitive dissonance want's me to believe that "Satan" got to me. That the church leaders never lied and no breach of trust ever occurred. There are days when I'd rather think that I made a bad judgement in calling them liars than deal with being betrayed. Most days I love that I know the ugly truth of their fraud and can more easily let go of religiosity.
Great Episode again! Donation follows. When I was attending regularly I was in a Sunday school meeting. The topic was based around Brigham Young being a “Lion of the Lord.” I brought up historical facts regarding his brutal leadership and theocracy in Utah. A bishopric wife came unhinged in his defense and chastised me. My response was, “You should read a book.” She stormed out of the class.
@@PrincessMicrowave grow up please. Shame, insult, guilt, and the need to be right are typical for the victim mentally of feminists. I shared a factual account of my experience.
Bases loaded…You guys hit it out of the park. 🎉So awesome to witness your Grand Slam! What a great TEAM! Thank you for being truth tellers. 🙌 Thanks for being true to being you! 😁 So great to meet RFM Tuesday. Another outstanding presentation. More please! 😁
Something I really appreciate about you RFM is your Boomer references. I get every one of them plus your obscure ones from books and movies. It makes it enjoyable for me and brings a different dimension to the discussion. I don’t see it as being arrogant or showing off as much as this is how our brains process information
I know a missionary who was told he couldn't teach about Christ until after an investigator was baptized. The purpose was not to bring people to Christ but to baptized them. This was very demoralizing for him.
In the English language, "to not know [someone] from Adam" is a well-known and often used idiom (which may, however, be less often used now than it was maybe a generation or two ago) that essentially means that one is so unacquainted and unfamiliar with a person that you would not know who that person is even if that person was standing right in front of you and talking to you. You've never met them before. You don't know anything about them. You wouldn't recognize them if you saw them. (Example: "Excuse me, I'm looking for the manager of this store, Jane Smythe. Can you help me?" "I'm sorry. I don't work here. I wouldn't know Jane Smythe from Adam." So.... One sad and unfortunate truth in the world of Mormonism is the FACT that the second president, prophet, seer and revelator of the Mormon Church and the actual "father" (in a sense) of the largest branch/sect of Mormonism that followed Joseph Smith's death, literally did not know God from Adam. That's not a small problem for the Mormon church. That's not just a situation where Brigham Young occasionally acted like a crazy uncle who needed to be hidden in the attic. That calls into question the authority and validity of ALL of the leaders who came after Brigham Young, as well as ALL of the leaders who "sustained" Brigham Young as the "prophet, seer and revelator" when he was alive. You logically cannot have a legitimate foundation for valid authority or chain of priesthood succession and authority if it comes from and is traced to leaders who literally did not know God from Adam. Mormon leaders in BY's day: "We get our authority and priesthood from God!" People who ask obvious questions: "Who is God?" Mormon leaders in BY's day: "God is that guy over there. Sometimes he goes by the name Adam." Modern Mormon leaders: "No. That's not right. That's just Adam. Adam is not God." People who ask obvious questions: "Well, wait a minute. If your predecessors thought that they got their authority and priesthood from that guy who you say is not God, doesn't that mean that they actually did not get any authority or priesthood from God?" Modern Mormon leaders: "Please shut up. You're not being helpful at all." When people like Spencer W. Kimball and Bruce R. McConkie denounce the "Adam-God theory" (actually doctrine), they are unavoidably denouncing Brigham Young and implicitly acknowledging that Brigham Young did not know God from Adam. They are also denouncing the ENTIRE generation of priesthood leaders who sustained, as their supreme prophet, seer and revelator, a leader who did not know God from Adam. Well... Spencer W. Kimball's and Bruce R. McConkie's priesthood authority and leadership callings trace directly back to Brigham Young and the generation of leaders who sustained Brigham Young. In the process of affirming that Brigham Young's teachings about who Mormons worship as their God was flat out wrong, wrong, wrong (a case of mistaken identity in the extreme) ... people like SWK and BRM (and really all of the modern leaders of Mormonism) were essentially sitting out on a limb and sawing it off of the tree trunk to which it was attached. They succeeded in severing the limb from the trunk. It is falling in slow motion and all of the modern leaders have horrified looks on their faces now that they realize that they are falling along with the limb they were sitting on. (Of course that's not the only reason they are falling ....)
I know I'm 7 months late on this one, but I thoroughly enjoyed the episode. This, with Nemo's recent grappling match while exerciseing his opposing vote, really paints a clear picture of deceit by the Leaders.
This reminds me of the topics discussed in the BYU Professor Apostate episode. My honesty about my doubts was cause for BYU to not renew my contract. So many people lie or say the right things in order to keep their job. I'm not condemning them, but I think it's sad that the church explicitly breeds dishonesty when it punishes people who are authentic and/or questioning.
Fantastic episode! You've presented things I've never heard before, and I've been waaay down the rabbit hole. I hope you, LDS Discussions, or others, will divide this up into smaller clips for a wider audience to see (on Tiktok and TH-cam), and hopefully get new viewers interested in hearing this entire presentation. Great job!
I kinda feel bad for the Mormon church - it's just too easy to judge it false (and easier all the time); and too easy to see the lying for the lord; and run circles around FAIR-type apologetics - and there's no hope or prayer that it will ever get any better for Mormonism. It's all pretty much dependent on the _burning bosom,_ and on _"doubt your doubts and follow the leaders."_ It's all kinda sad for the Mormon church I used to believe and belong. The members and converts deserve better, and better leadership.
This is why there were few if any Prophets, Apostles, GAs, Stake Presidents or Bishops that were ever Eagle Scouts or willingly interested in abiding Scouting principles. There is a big disparity on the issue of truth and living life honestly between the two organizations. Being an Eagle Scout was always a negative to being in leadership.
"One set of rules for members and one set of rule for leaders' - of course, they have the Second Anointing and they don't have to face any sin committed because they get the big holy pass (not unluck the Catholic practice of paying off your sins).
37:50 I was going to say that Brent Metcalfe shared his discussion with Mark E. Peterson on Mormon Stories about how Mark told him not to acknowledge or give attention to the Adam God "theory" (Doctrine) or it would give strength to the FLDS position.
The BBC journalist Bill mentions at 43:50 is John Sweeney. John is currently a freelance covering the war in Ukraine from the ground in Kyiv. He's as blunt, clever and fearless as ever.
@ 1:10:30 "the defamation of our dead heros only serves to undermine faith in the principals for which they stood." I'd like a world-wide vote please! I'm going out on a limb here and assume most people know that one "hero" doesn't lay claim to any particular "principal." Who would decide to throw out a particular "faith" or "principal" (I think he means "religion" or "morals") just because a person whom they respected fell off the proverbial pedestal? Not me. I suspect not too many other people out there either.
I would love a follow up episode on this that is specifically Joseph Smith. The things that he lied about directly that are known and clear. I'd like to CLEARLY understand whether he was a charlatan.
They will be on TH-cam as well as the umbrella site and Mormonism Live’s website as well as mormondiscussionpodcast and Radio Free Mormon in the morning
Walking away from your worldview and everything that governed your life and sense of identity and, potentially your livelihood, is extremely difficult. It is an existential crisis that many do not have the courage to face. Denial is an extremely strong psychological defense mechanism. Where would you go? What would you do? What would you become? Even the gravitational pull of (this) a collapsing star is irresistible for some. To pretend it is for some less painful than facing the truth.
I am not okay with people who learn the truth (which at some level they already mostly know) staying in the Mormon Church and pretending to believe. It's called aiding and abetting a con, a fraud.
Great episode. I may have missed you saying it, but Boyd K. Packer is the author of The Candle of the Lord. I believe it was a talk given to new Mission Presidents.
I know I believe hmm difference? Can't see it. What about I hope? Feedback anyone. Also just recently resigned from church but still have kudos for good works and good people in there. We are all just making our way through muddy waters! God bless.
RFM I liked your statement on "If you lie enough you will come to believe your lie is true? Does that ring a bell about a certain individual telling lies and making up stories which he believes himself and trying to convince others also. hmmmm
This is so interesting. Reddit went a bit wild with dissatisfaction with Under the Banner of Heaven. Maven is helping me out here.... People don't like that it seems culty. I haven't had a single person who I took to church when I was a member who hasn't said it was culty. 😂 So..... I think I get it. It's hard to look at it for what it is. Or for how it really really comes across from the outside. Very hard. But that doesn't mean it's not "accurate."
Not sure if RFM has found the reference he was asking about but I found an article in the November 1980 Ensign about Benson and potato peels in post WWII
RFM does a mean Oaks: ), ..... Oaks uses the word 'balance', hoping that the people he's talking to conflate 'balance' with 'honest.' He says, 'We have no obligation to be balanced', but NO ONE wants them to be balanced. People only want them to be honest. That ain't gonna happen, lol, ....
Possible motivations for top LDS leadership- After my research into LDS church history and doctrine, it seemed obvious to me that the church is not what it claims to be, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30). If it is not the one and only true church, why are the LDS Apostles and Prophets still teaching and preaching that it is? Wouldn’t they know better than me if the church was or was not what it claims to be? Since the evidence at hand supports that it is not what it claims to be, why don’t the top leaders just admit such and set the record straight? As I pondered these questions, I came up with the following possible explanations: 1) LDS Apostles and Prophets are confident in their belief that the church is true, so a. they are doing what they believe is best to keep others believing, faithful, and on “the covenant path” even if that includes half-truths, omissions, misrepresentations, full lies, or obfuscation of facts. 2) LDS Apostles and Prophets are not 100% confident that the church is true, but a. they feel it is better to err on the safe side, so they push their doubts aside, exercise faith, and continue as if it is true, just in case. b. they believe that the church does a lot of good and therefore is an uplifting and worthy cause to be associated with, regardless if it is true or not. c. it has been a positive influence in their life. They believe that they are a better person as a member of the church than they were before joining it or would be without it. d. if they entertain the thought that it might not be the “one true church”, then they could easily conclude that no other church could be the “one true church” either. And, if no church is the “true” church, then it is probable that all churches are equally engaged in God’s work and therefore, no church would be any better than any other. So, there would be no reason to change. After all, they would believe they are still engaged in God's work. e. they have received their 2nd anointing and, according to the LDS Church, are essentially guaranteed to receive their eternal reward of exaltation as long as they do not fall away. With such a great “promise”, they feel it is better to err on the safe side, so they push their doubts aside, exercise faith, and continue as if it is true, just in case. f. they want it to be true so that they can validate their whole life’s worth of decisions. g. belonging to the “one true church” makes them feel special and/or elect. 3) LDS Apostles and Prophets do not believe that the church is true, but a. they are too vested in it and/or it would damage the faith and happiness of their believing family and friends, so they carry on as if it is true. b. to avoid public humiliation, disgrace, and probable excommunication by publicly admitting their unbelief, they carry on as if it is true. c. the church has something that it can hold against them (blackmail, repayment of monies received, breach of non-disclosure, etc) that they believe would be worse than just keeping the status quo. d. they would have to give up a 6 figure living allowance, exceptional healthcare coverage, paid travel expenses, and other perks. e. they enjoy the position of power, authority, and influence that they have obtained through a lifetime of dedication and sacrifice to the church and want to reap the rewards of their efforts. I do not believe that the top LDS leaders are maliciously misleading members. My personal opinion is that most, if not all, fall somewhere into categories 1 or 2 above. They are probably just trying to do the best they can with what they believe is right. However, good intentions do not make the church true.
I’m wondering what are the various publishing companies you have published under? Are they more or less yours, or are there some things you haven’t been able to get a publisher to publish that you would like to publish?
I think he was probably referring to Edwin D. Woolley, a prominent bishop in Salt Lake City, who was involved in church business (as in business, business and more business) activities, including the founding of ZCMI. He knew Brigham Young quite well. He was also the grandfather of both J. Reuben Clark and Spencer W. Kimball. (Yes, most of the top leaders are related and nepotism is the currency of the realm. Just ask Spencer's nephew Henry Eyring. Or ask the Romneys, who are the Eyring's cousins.) E.D. Woolley was also the father of John Wickersham Woolley and grandfather of Lorin Calvin Woolley, who were founders of the Mormon Fundamentalist movement. Many Mormon fundamentalists still believe in the Adam-God doctrine. So there is that. In other words, some of Spencer W. Kimball's cousins were followers of the Adam-God doctrine. He was really close to it, so any feigned unfamiliarity with the concept would be just that...feigned. To sum up, Spencer W. Kimball's grandfather, E.D. Woolley would have been in a position to know perfectly well what Brigham Young was teaching on any particular subject (and by extension his grandson Spencer would have been perfectly aware of the Adam-God doctrine) and Spencer W. Kimball had cousins who chose to keep following Brigham Young's teachings. I don't know if RFM was thinking of something else more specific. But that's how I understood it.
I couldn't get my comments to work during the session, but was there a blinking butt on the table behind RFM? Something was turning on and off in the background.
The Romans 1:17-18 passage from the Ensign article is taken way way out of context by Nelson at the 18:00 mark. Romans 1:17 is what inspired Martin Luther to unplug from the Catholic faith and start the Protestant Reformation. That verse is talking about how salvation is received by faith and by faith alone. "The just shall live by faith". The "shall live" is future tense meaning eternal life, and the other portion of the phrase is your justification comes by faith. If Nelsen had any theological sense, he wouldn't put that verse in the article, since it goes directly against LDS belief and is a famous verse. Verse 18 is talking about those who suppress and withhold God's truth from people, so that verse is literally talking about people like Nelson. The Greek word used for "hold" in that verse means to suppress and hold down. Nelson is trying to take a KJV translation at face value without the underlying context and old use of the words in the passage so that he can paint an image of damnation to those who question or leave the church. Given the actual meaning of the verse, the irony in what Nelson is doing in that passage is uncanny.
@@TheBackyardProfessor It's always seemed to me that among the Big 15, the expectation has always been that Oaks is supposed to be the "genius lawyer guy" who is expected to dazzle everyone (especially critics of Mormonism) with clever legalistic spin and sophistry that leaves them dumbfounded. It does leave people dumbfounded, but not in the way that Oaks or the other Big 15 guys want to think. People are dumbfounded as to how it is that a supposedly intelligent person like Oaks thinks that he's fooling anyone with the kind of corrupt-used-car-salesman double talk that he comes up with. He gets this grin like he thinks he's smoothly putting one over on some dupes. Meanwhile, the "dupes" are rolling their eyes and saying: "Sure, sure...you're absolutely right, Dallin. This rusty old carcass of an automobile with the busted odometer is a 'real steal' that is mechanically in mint condition, having only been driven to church on Sundays by a widow and that loud clanking sound when the engine is running is actually a very sophisticated engineering feature designed to let you know that the engine is running perfectly. Sure, Dallin, sure...."
Sahih International: Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
Your intro says "children of all ages" but this program is not actually for children. I think it's important to represent the correct audience since you never know who is clicking on the links.
Please consider the fact that God Himself has hidden a great many things from mankind and has done what others would consider awful and terrible. No matter how hard someone tries to dismantle The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, they can never truly succeed with those who have the fire of the Holy Ghost, who has imbedded this main truth in their hearts: that this church is indeed the only true and authorized church of Christ on this planet; that all it is and does is to point people to follow the Savior; that the Book of Mormon is true, and Joseph Smith and all the others were true prophets of God; that this church will continue to spread across the world. It is not shrinking. 17 new temples announced last conference. Christ directs His church and will return soon. If anyone ever felt the Holy Ghost concerning the church, prophets, or BOM, may you put all contention away and follow the spirit that testifies of truth. No one who has had that experience can get around it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not one of contention, but of peace. All I need to do to see the difference is watch a conference and know which is promoting peace and which promotes contention. Night and day. I’m sticking with the light that only the gospel can provide because I know exactly what the Holy Ghost told me and has blessed me with for many, many years. It is the only truth that matters. All else is superficial. I look forward to the return of my Savior and will give a report of my life, knowing that as imperfect as I am, I never quit His Church, His prophets, His doctrine, or His Gospel. I have enjoyed nothing but peace and pray the day will come that you will as well.
Hi Sandra, Great comment. It takes guts to engage with people who think differently than you so I applaud you for that. What did you think about the content of this episode?
It doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what God thinks. Personally, I will never understand those who disparage a church they don’t even belong to. Nothing you have said makes any change to how I think about The Lord’s Church. I know what I have. This presentation reminds me of the Israelites who craved meat and complained until the Lord said, ok, you want meat? I’ll give you what you want. Then He sent them game birds. They filled their bellies and many died. So, fill your bellies all you want. It doesn’t change a thing or the truth. Whatever mistakes have been made will either be justified or not. God is the judge.
"No one who has had that experience (feeling the Holy Ghost) can get around it." Nearly everyone listening to this podcast, including RFM and Bishop Bill Reel, have experienced it. It's called 'elevation emotion.' Do you realize that feelings can lead you astray? And having someone else dictate to you what your feelings mean (in this case, by the church) is another way to be led away from the truth. Bearing your testimony to us is unfruitful because we know all too well that we used to do exactly the same thing, yet have since discovered that we were duped. These hosts are offering the truth. Are you brave enough to investigate? Best wishes, in any case.
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A very powerful demonstration of just why I quit apologetics. I am going to be referencing this one again and again. Job VERY WELL done gents! Thanks for the quick pat on the back as well.
Love you BYP
I just had a huge unexpected fight about the church with some family members today in which I was bombarded by lots of anger and resentment, etc. It's been a while since I've been emotionally hurt this much, and so my heart is weighing heavy today. Lots of gaslighting and blaming me for nonsensical things (losing the faith and being sexually assaulted on my mission and whatnot), and I just gotta say that I appreciate the work you guys do. You remind me that I'm not insane and that the truth is more important than making other people feel comfortable by pretending to believe what they want you to believe.
No idea if that made sense
You're not insane! I am sorry you had to go through that and I'm glad you've found this community!
@@teresapitman1659 thank you 🙏
❤🧡💛Everything you said made sense! The betrayal is real. The validation healing. I avoid people.
Jon, I know how difficult your situation is. I can relate. I like the thought that "What others think of you is none of your business.". You are very sane. Follow your inner voice and find your own happiness, no matter what that looks like. Your journey is yours alone. Look for the recent you tube video Steve Young made. It's excellent.
Fantastic episode all - thank you for all your work. We are 1 year sober from Mormonism 🥳 and you guys have played a huge part in our family’s decompression from the cult and being able to unpack the crazy - thank you so much 😊
Hands Down, the most applicable episode on the Church I've listened to. Actually listened once and watched the second time. Lies, are the toughest hurdle when communicating with family members who are still in the church. I have been frustrated on so many levels, as my mother ages and I have to work with my TBM family, now I can see with clarity. 37 years out, I was able to distance, now I'm thrown into the mix as we maneuver aging, illness and death...I cannot Thank you enough for doing this work.
Coming to the truth about the lies/liars is what broke my shelf, my heart and my soul. Most excellent episode gentlemen!!
It's just not really possible to be able to recover from the loss of trust
@@jonbaker476 I'm right there with you! I hope we are both wrong.
Same. I might have been able to deal with it had they been forthright all along. But when I realized they expected a standard of honesty from me they weren't willing to provide.
@@MsCaterificyou hope you are both wrong?
@@SilentThundersnow It's my brainwashing thinking kicking is ... cognitive dissonance want's me to believe that "Satan" got to me. That the church leaders never lied and no breach of trust ever occurred. There are days when I'd rather think that I made a bad judgement in calling them liars than deal with being betrayed. Most days I love that I know the ugly truth of their fraud and can more easily let go of religiosity.
Great Episode again! Donation follows. When I was attending regularly I was in a Sunday school meeting. The topic was based around Brigham Young being a “Lion of the Lord.” I brought up historical facts regarding his brutal leadership and theocracy in Utah. A bishopric wife came unhinged in his defense and chastised me. My response was, “You should read a book.” She stormed out of the class.
This comes off pretty misogynist, fyi.
@@PrincessMicrowave grow up please. Shame, insult, guilt, and the need to be right are typical for the victim mentally of feminists. I shared a factual account of my experience.
@@PrincessMicrowave LOL! Dealing with unhinged nutjobs is the price one pays for going Progressive. You're doing good work.
One of my favorite episodes so far!!! Thank you guys!!!
Bases loaded…You guys hit it out of the park. 🎉So awesome to witness your Grand Slam! What a great TEAM! Thank you for being truth tellers. 🙌 Thanks for being true to being you! 😁 So great to meet RFM Tuesday. Another outstanding presentation. More please! 😁
Something I really appreciate about you RFM is your Boomer references. I get every one of them plus your obscure ones from books and movies. It makes it enjoyable for me and brings a different dimension to the discussion. I don’t see it as being arrogant or showing off as much as this is how our brains process information
High value content.
I know a missionary who was told he couldn't teach about Christ until after an investigator was baptized. The purpose was not to bring people to Christ but to baptized them. This was very demoralizing for him.
🤯🥺
In the English language, "to not know [someone] from Adam" is a well-known and often used idiom (which may, however, be less often used now than it was maybe a generation or two ago) that essentially means that one is so unacquainted and unfamiliar with a person that you would not know who that person is even if that person was standing right in front of you and talking to you. You've never met them before. You don't know anything about them. You wouldn't recognize them if you saw them. (Example: "Excuse me, I'm looking for the manager of this store, Jane Smythe. Can you help me?" "I'm sorry. I don't work here. I wouldn't know Jane Smythe from Adam."
So.... One sad and unfortunate truth in the world of Mormonism is the FACT that the second president, prophet, seer and revelator of the Mormon Church and the actual "father" (in a sense) of the largest branch/sect of Mormonism that followed Joseph Smith's death, literally did not know God from Adam. That's not a small problem for the Mormon church. That's not just a situation where Brigham Young occasionally acted like a crazy uncle who needed to be hidden in the attic. That calls into question the authority and validity of ALL of the leaders who came after Brigham Young, as well as ALL of the leaders who "sustained" Brigham Young as the "prophet, seer and revelator" when he was alive.
You logically cannot have a legitimate foundation for valid authority or chain of priesthood succession and authority if it comes from and is traced to leaders who literally did not know God from Adam.
Mormon leaders in BY's day: "We get our authority and priesthood from God!"
People who ask obvious questions: "Who is God?"
Mormon leaders in BY's day: "God is that guy over there. Sometimes he goes by the name Adam."
Modern Mormon leaders: "No. That's not right. That's just Adam. Adam is not God."
People who ask obvious questions: "Well, wait a minute. If your predecessors thought that they got their authority and priesthood from that guy who you say is not God, doesn't that mean that they actually did not get any authority or priesthood from God?"
Modern Mormon leaders: "Please shut up. You're not being helpful at all."
When people like Spencer W. Kimball and Bruce R. McConkie denounce the "Adam-God theory" (actually doctrine), they are unavoidably denouncing Brigham Young and implicitly acknowledging that Brigham Young did not know God from Adam. They are also denouncing the ENTIRE generation of priesthood leaders who sustained, as their supreme prophet, seer and revelator, a leader who did not know God from Adam. Well... Spencer W. Kimball's and Bruce R. McConkie's priesthood authority and leadership callings trace directly back to Brigham Young and the generation of leaders who sustained Brigham Young. In the process of affirming that Brigham Young's teachings about who Mormons worship as their God was flat out wrong, wrong, wrong (a case of mistaken identity in the extreme) ... people like SWK and BRM (and really all of the modern leaders of Mormonism) were essentially sitting out on a limb and sawing it off of the tree trunk to which it was attached. They succeeded in severing the limb from the trunk. It is falling in slow motion and all of the modern leaders have horrified looks on their faces now that they realize that they are falling along with the limb they were sitting on. (Of course that's not the only reason they are falling ....)
I know I'm 7 months late on this one, but I thoroughly enjoyed the episode. This, with Nemo's recent grappling match while exerciseing his opposing vote, really paints a clear picture of deceit by the Leaders.
This reminds me of the topics discussed in the BYU Professor Apostate episode. My honesty about my doubts was cause for BYU to not renew my contract. So many people lie or say the right things in order to keep their job. I'm not condemning them, but I think it's sad that the church explicitly breeds dishonesty when it punishes people who are authentic and/or questioning.
Fantastic episode! You've presented things I've never heard before, and I've been waaay down the rabbit hole. I hope you, LDS Discussions, or others, will divide this up into smaller clips for a wider audience to see (on Tiktok and TH-cam), and hopefully get new viewers interested in hearing this entire presentation. Great job!
I kinda feel bad for the Mormon church - it's just too easy to judge it false (and easier all the time); and too easy to see the lying for the lord; and run circles around FAIR-type apologetics - and there's no hope or prayer that it will ever get any better for Mormonism. It's all pretty much dependent on the _burning bosom,_ and on _"doubt your doubts and follow the leaders."_ It's all kinda sad for the Mormon church I used to believe and belong. The members and converts deserve better, and better leadership.
I agree with you my friend. Brainwashing is strongly used in the Mormon church.
This is why there were few if any Prophets, Apostles, GAs, Stake Presidents or Bishops that were ever Eagle Scouts or willingly interested in abiding Scouting principles. There is a big disparity on the issue of truth and living life honestly between the two organizations. Being an Eagle Scout was always a negative to being in leadership.
It's not messy. It fraudulent.
Yesss! They are intentionally decieving.
Thanks fir all you do. Remember, even if you reach one… abd you reached me.
"One set of rules for members and one set of rule for leaders' - of course, they have the Second Anointing and they don't have to face any sin committed because they get the big holy pass (not unluck the Catholic practice of paying off your sins).
37:50 I was going to say that Brent Metcalfe shared his discussion with Mark E. Peterson on Mormon Stories about how Mark told him not to acknowledge or give attention to the Adam God "theory" (Doctrine) or it would give strength to the FLDS position.
Powerful episode. So well put together. Jehovah Witnesses call it “theocratic warfare” and are very honest about their lying. ‘Honest about lying” lol
Your both amazing.thank you!
The BBC journalist Bill mentions at 43:50 is John Sweeney. John is currently a freelance covering the war in Ukraine from the ground in Kyiv. He's as blunt, clever and fearless as ever.
@ 1:10:30 "the defamation of our dead heros only serves to undermine faith in the principals for which they stood."
I'd like a world-wide vote please! I'm going out on a limb here and assume most people know that one "hero" doesn't lay claim to any particular "principal." Who would decide to throw out a particular "faith" or "principal" (I think he means "religion" or "morals") just because a person whom they respected fell off the proverbial pedestal? Not me. I suspect not too many other people out there either.
I would love a follow up episode on this that is specifically Joseph Smith. The things that he lied about directly that are known and clear. I'd like to CLEARLY understand whether he was a charlatan.
Enjoy listening to you guys as you really have a great report together. Love Bill's 666 in the telephone number.
Fantastic content and presentation. Get some sleep RFM!
Where can we get the "show notes"...?
They will be on TH-cam as well as the umbrella site and Mormonism Live’s website as well as mormondiscussionpodcast and Radio Free Mormon in the morning
Like that famous quote, "Give me hokum or give me balderdash".
Balderdash. Is that like what happens when someone like Vin Diesel or Dallin Oaks participates in short-track events?
58:47 - RFM has an awesome laugh. And this quote is very enlightening.
Walking away from your worldview and everything that governed your life and sense of identity and, potentially your livelihood, is extremely difficult. It is an existential crisis that many do not have the courage to face. Denial is an extremely strong psychological defense mechanism. Where would you go? What would you do? What would you become? Even the gravitational pull of (this) a collapsing star is irresistible for some. To pretend it is for some less painful than facing the truth.
I am not okay with people who learn the truth (which at some level they already mostly know) staying in the Mormon Church and pretending to believe. It's called aiding and abetting a con, a fraud.
Great episode. I may have missed you saying it, but Boyd K. Packer is the author of The Candle of the Lord. I believe it was a talk given to new Mission Presidents.
I know I believe hmm difference? Can't see it. What about I hope? Feedback anyone. Also just recently resigned from church but still have kudos for good works and good people in there. We are all just making our way through muddy waters! God bless.
My god you crack me up RFM
RFM I liked your statement on "If you lie enough you will come to believe your lie is true? Does that ring a bell about a certain individual telling lies and making up stories which he believes himself and trying to convince others also. hmmmm
This is so interesting.
Reddit went a bit wild with dissatisfaction with Under the Banner of Heaven. Maven is helping me out here.... People don't like that it seems culty. I haven't had a single person who I took to church when I was a member who hasn't said it was culty. 😂 So..... I think I get it. It's hard to look at it for what it is. Or for how it really really comes across from the outside. Very hard. But that doesn't mean it's not "accurate."
Not sure if RFM has found the reference he was asking about but I found an article in the November 1980 Ensign about Benson and potato peels in post WWII
Stop lying Church
RFM does a mean Oaks: ), ..... Oaks uses the word 'balance', hoping that the people he's talking to conflate 'balance' with 'honest.' He says, 'We have no obligation to be balanced', but NO ONE wants them to be balanced. People only want them to be honest. That ain't gonna happen, lol, ....
So, you can't see the forest for the Oaks?
Lol, Bill. "It's hard to believe that Mormonism could come across as cultish." 🤪 😉😉
Possible motivations for top LDS leadership-
After my research into LDS church history and doctrine, it seemed obvious to me that the church is not what it claims to be, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30). If it is not the one and only true church, why are the LDS Apostles and Prophets still teaching and preaching that it is? Wouldn’t they know better than me if the church was or was not what it claims to be? Since the evidence at hand supports that it is not what it claims to be, why don’t the top leaders just admit such and set the record straight? As I pondered these questions, I came up with the following possible explanations:
1) LDS Apostles and Prophets are confident in their belief that the church is true, so
a. they are doing what they believe is best to keep others believing, faithful, and on “the covenant path” even if that includes half-truths, omissions, misrepresentations, full lies, or obfuscation of facts.
2) LDS Apostles and Prophets are not 100% confident that the church is true, but
a. they feel it is better to err on the safe side, so they push their doubts aside, exercise faith, and continue as if it is true, just in case.
b. they believe that the church does a lot of good and therefore is an uplifting and worthy cause to be associated with, regardless if it is true or not.
c. it has been a positive influence in their life. They believe that they are a better person as a member of the church than they were before joining it or would be without it.
d. if they entertain the thought that it might not be the “one true church”, then they could easily conclude that no other church could be the “one true church” either. And, if no church is the “true” church, then it is probable that all churches are equally engaged in God’s work and therefore, no church would be any better than any other. So, there would be no reason to change. After all, they would believe they are still engaged in God's work.
e. they have received their 2nd anointing and, according to the LDS Church, are essentially guaranteed to receive their eternal reward of exaltation as long as they do not fall away. With such a great “promise”, they feel it is better to err on the safe side, so they push their doubts aside, exercise faith, and continue as if it is true, just in case.
f. they want it to be true so that they can validate their whole life’s worth of decisions.
g. belonging to the “one true church” makes them feel special and/or elect.
3) LDS Apostles and Prophets do not believe that the church is true, but
a. they are too vested in it and/or it would damage the faith and happiness of their believing family and friends, so they carry on as if it is true.
b. to avoid public humiliation, disgrace, and probable excommunication by publicly admitting their unbelief, they carry on as if it is true.
c. the church has something that it can hold against them (blackmail, repayment of monies received, breach of non-disclosure, etc) that they believe would be worse than just keeping the status quo.
d. they would have to give up a 6 figure living allowance, exceptional healthcare coverage, paid travel expenses, and other perks.
e. they enjoy the position of power, authority, and influence that they have obtained through a lifetime of dedication and sacrifice to the church and want to reap the rewards of their efforts.
I do not believe that the top LDS leaders are maliciously misleading members. My personal opinion is that most, if not all, fall somewhere into categories 1 or 2 above. They are probably just trying to do the best they can with what they believe is right. However, good intentions do not make the church true.
3. A, B, C, D,and E. Smh...
🧐😢🤮
The apostles lookin kinda dripped out doe
I’m wondering what are the various publishing companies you have published under? Are they more or less yours, or are there some things you haven’t been able to get a publisher to publish that you would like to publish?
I don’t understand RFM’s Woolley reference to the Adam God Doctrine. Any help?
I think he was probably referring to Edwin D. Woolley, a prominent bishop in Salt Lake City, who was involved in church business (as in business, business and more business) activities, including the founding of ZCMI. He knew Brigham Young quite well. He was also the grandfather of both J. Reuben Clark and Spencer W. Kimball. (Yes, most of the top leaders are related and nepotism is the currency of the realm. Just ask Spencer's nephew Henry Eyring. Or ask the Romneys, who are the Eyring's cousins.) E.D. Woolley was also the father of John Wickersham Woolley and grandfather of Lorin Calvin Woolley, who were founders of the Mormon Fundamentalist movement. Many Mormon fundamentalists still believe in the Adam-God doctrine. So there is that. In other words, some of Spencer W. Kimball's cousins were followers of the Adam-God doctrine. He was really close to it, so any feigned unfamiliarity with the concept would be just that...feigned.
To sum up, Spencer W. Kimball's grandfather, E.D. Woolley would have been in a position to know perfectly well what Brigham Young was teaching on any particular subject (and by extension his grandson Spencer would have been perfectly aware of the Adam-God doctrine) and Spencer W. Kimball had cousins who chose to keep following Brigham Young's teachings. I don't know if RFM was thinking of something else more specific. But that's how I understood it.
I don't even like Holy Ghost love Holy Spirit
I couldn't get my comments to work during the session, but was there a blinking butt on the table behind RFM? Something was turning on and off in the background.
He usually has a candle burning so perhaps some flickering.
The Romans 1:17-18 passage from the Ensign article is taken way way out of context by Nelson at the 18:00 mark. Romans 1:17 is what inspired Martin Luther to unplug from the Catholic faith and start the Protestant Reformation. That verse is talking about how salvation is received by faith and by faith alone. "The just shall live by faith". The "shall live" is future tense meaning eternal life, and the other portion of the phrase is your justification comes by faith. If Nelsen had any theological sense, he wouldn't put that verse in the article, since it goes directly against LDS belief and is a famous verse. Verse 18 is talking about those who suppress and withhold God's truth from people, so that verse is literally talking about people like Nelson. The Greek word used for "hold" in that verse means to suppress and hold down. Nelson is trying to take a KJV translation at face value without the underlying context and old use of the words in the passage so that he can paint an image of damnation to those who question or leave the church. Given the actual meaning of the verse, the irony in what Nelson is doing in that passage is uncanny.
Master of the head trip, DHO... Lol
More like master of the motor mouth. Oaks is just corrupt.
@@TheBackyardProfessor It's always seemed to me that among the Big 15, the expectation has always been that Oaks is supposed to be the "genius lawyer guy" who is expected to dazzle everyone (especially critics of Mormonism) with clever legalistic spin and sophistry that leaves them dumbfounded. It does leave people dumbfounded, but not in the way that Oaks or the other Big 15 guys want to think. People are dumbfounded as to how it is that a supposedly intelligent person like Oaks thinks that he's fooling anyone with the kind of corrupt-used-car-salesman double talk that he comes up with.
He gets this grin like he thinks he's smoothly putting one over on some dupes. Meanwhile, the "dupes" are rolling their eyes and saying: "Sure, sure...you're absolutely right, Dallin. This rusty old carcass of an automobile with the busted odometer is a 'real steal' that is mechanically in mint condition, having only been driven to church on Sundays by a widow and that loud clanking sound when the engine is running is actually a very sophisticated engineering feature designed to let you know that the engine is running perfectly. Sure, Dallin, sure...."
Flee from the Internet
Sahih International: Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
The book of Mormon and it's companion books have within them much contradiction. So they didn't come from God
Sadly ETBenson defended JEHoover of all people. CIA (clowns in America) on all sides and the very czars of honesty.
Your intro says "children of all ages" but this program is not actually for children. I think it's important to represent the correct audience since you never know who is clicking on the links.
This video is sad nice job rfm for ur nice red baby face hahahahahahahahhahah
Their God told Abraham to lie about his wife, told him to say Sarah was his sister
NO! Read the Bible again! God tells them no such thing…..they lied on their own.
@@vivianboxer6045 the book of Mormon not the Bible. Pay attention.
@@pauldmckee I apologize.
Please consider the fact that God Himself has hidden a great many things from mankind and has done what others would consider awful and terrible. No matter how hard someone tries to dismantle The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, they can never truly succeed with those who have the fire of the Holy Ghost, who has imbedded this main truth in their hearts: that this church is indeed the only true and authorized church of Christ on this planet; that all it is and does is to point people to follow the Savior; that the Book of Mormon is true, and Joseph Smith and all the others were true prophets of God; that this church will continue to spread across the world. It is not shrinking. 17 new temples announced last conference. Christ directs His church and will return soon. If anyone ever felt the Holy Ghost concerning the church, prophets, or BOM, may you put all contention away and follow the spirit that testifies of truth. No one who has had that experience can get around it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not one of contention, but of peace. All I need to do to see the difference is watch a conference and know which is promoting peace and which promotes contention. Night and day. I’m sticking with the light that only the gospel can provide because I know exactly what the Holy Ghost told me and has blessed me with for many, many years. It is the only truth that matters. All else is superficial. I look forward to the return of my Savior and will give a report of my life, knowing that as imperfect as I am, I never quit His Church, His prophets, His doctrine, or His Gospel. I have enjoyed nothing but peace and pray the day will come that
you will as well.
Hi Sandra,
Great comment. It takes guts to engage with people who think differently than you so I applaud you for that. What did you think about the content of this episode?
It doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what God thinks. Personally, I will never understand those who disparage a church they don’t even belong to. Nothing you have said makes any change to how I think about The Lord’s Church. I know what I have. This presentation reminds me of the Israelites who craved meat and complained until the Lord said, ok, you want meat? I’ll give you what you want. Then He sent them game birds. They filled their bellies and many died. So, fill your bellies all you want. It doesn’t change a thing or the truth. Whatever mistakes have been made will either be justified or not. God is the judge.
@@sandrahurst4123 why would God poison his children though ? 🤔
@@sandrahurst4123 Great comment. You’re definitely valid in the way you believe. I’m curious, what comments did they say that were disparaging?
"No one who has had that experience (feeling the Holy Ghost) can get around it." Nearly
everyone listening to this podcast, including RFM and Bishop Bill Reel, have experienced it. It's called 'elevation emotion.' Do you realize that feelings can lead you astray? And having someone else dictate to you what your feelings mean (in this case, by the church) is another way to be led away from the truth. Bearing your testimony to us is unfruitful because we know all too well that we used to do exactly the same thing, yet have since discovered that we were duped. These hosts are offering the truth. Are you brave enough to investigate? Best wishes, in any case.