I was a life-long member, returned missionary, temple-married and bishop. It was only after I allowed myself to consider outside discussions of the church that I walked away. I mostly credit sites like Mormon Discussions and Mr. Diety and dozens of others that allowed me to reflect on my doubts/beliefs and more importantly laugh at them and myself. Glad I left and so glad there are people willing to offer rational views of belief systems even when it seems no one is listening. People are walking away, it's just that most of them are quiet like myself.
@@mss3834 Hope your family survived the changes. I was lucky, my kids and siblings have had no problem with it. My wife never accepted even the possibility that I had lost my faith and has since passed away, or that would have been a rather difficult situation though I loved her with my whole heart.
@@mckster56 If Earl Erskine, I have listened to his story. I used the same critical exam of the Mormon church and BoM with the Bible and other churches. I found every single church to be, at best, disingenuous about the origin and meaning of the Bible and decietful in the interpretation of verses. I have spent the last 15 years listening to apologists and reading many religious texts. None of them convince me of their sincerity or any knowledge of any God. If you leave mormonism and yet need religion to give your life meaning, then so be it. Although receptive to God if He decides to initiate communication, I have come to the conclusion that based on available texts and countless interpretations of them I cannot tell which version of God is real. The LDS church just emphasized "live what we tell you and you will find it is true". This is almost exactly what different groups say. This relies heavily on confirmation of preconceived biases. I will never rely on that methodology again. If someone has some reliable evidence that what they believe truly reflects God's will without any alteration by man, then I am willing to listen. Otherwise I have no interest whatsover.
@@rickskepticalno the marriage failed after 30 yr. The irony is she left the church several years later. She said some very cruel things about how I tossed our temple marriage out etc and then she left. I am mentally and emotionally healthy now but those were some difficult years
What a load of cobblers! Did Moses or Adam speak on behalf of God? Sure they did, that is how we got scripture! So if you took time to read and learn, then you would understand how men in mortality can speak on behalf of God. That is precisely why God gave men the Priesthood!
@markmorley7938 hi just saw this. First you are assuming that books of scripture rather than allegory. Second priesthood is man ordained authority. Third anyone who goes around speaking for God is a fraud. No one knows the mind of God. Happy Halloween 🎃
@@marquitaarmstrong399 wow!!! Ya thought that line up all on your lonesome LOL marq LOL Yes I agree.... I dont believe in the wizard of Oz myself!!! LOL
I'm constantly dumbfounded by 1. How obviously and demonstrably false this religion is and 2. How impossible it is to convince LDS people that this is the case
Umm, is a talking snake on the table for discussion? The arbitrary curse placed upon those who dare to add to scripture at the the end of Revalations? One could arguably assert that the entire Christian faith is "fraudulent" to the eyes of Judaists. Look at all the spin-offs(denominations) of Christianity... Are you not telling that their contribution is null based on similar grounds?
I wanted to reply to you but preferred to post separately so it would be slightly more visible. We are leaving. Very few make it a public matter. The LDS church has already changed a lot since my childhood, trying to hold its membership. I cannot see it surviving unless it drops its most extreme views and adopts a more mainstream approach which I think it will do little by little. Either that or it will use one of its investment accounts and just buy the whole country. :) Take care.
@@krismurphy7711 But the church has survived changing "unchangeable" ordinances and by modifying doctrine and then excusing it simply as changing "policy". Most of the active members swallow it whole. The possible shame/embarrassment of leaving maintains much of the status quo and so I do believe it could eventually drop JS to a secondary role, drop any idea that the BoM can represent any historical events and do it little by little while many members will swallow the changes whole. Who knows what the church will look like in another hundred years changing as quickly as it has since the 1960's? The only sure thing is that it will not be what we know today.
I was a 45 year Catholic who left and eventually joined the Mormon Church after a daughter became a member and I liked what I saw. The Mormon people are the kindest people on Earth. Their Church encourages fellowship among members and the constant "pot-lucks" encourage real Christian comradery. I will never take that away from the Church. After 15 years as a Mormon, I left when I came to the realization that the "upper echelon" of the Mormon Church have their hand "in your wallet" with their tithing requirements. I needed to help my daughter survive after a bad divorce and a bishop told me that supporting the church was more important than supporting family members. I left and never looked back!
People can be so kind but that doesn't mean they aren't being deceived. The devil is a liar. God is great. The word of God (the bible is the only book u need) Praise the Lord u left.
@@marygreen2672 Mary, you are right, but there is no "one path to God." The devil doesn't exist. That is Old Testament! God is love!!! That is New Testament! We live in the Jesus: New Testament era! Good Mormons go to heaven!
The more the miracles of the Restoration are studied, the less miraculous the stories become. From a divinely-directed tight translation of ancient languages to mere revelation. From a translation of writings from the hand of Abraham to a catalyzed revelation. From having the documented history of the origins of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas to not knowing what Lehite DNA would even look like. From being super specific about the historicity of Biblical events, the causes of diversity in skin tone, the causes of variant sexual orientation and gender identity to having "no official position". From a temple to last through the Millennium to an edifice requiring major renovations to make it through the next century. Time and information have been unkind to the Restoration.
There are countless miracle stories circulated over and over from the 3 nephites to monson readjusting his dentures over and over talking about milk strippings when that like all of them are total fabrications.
Simply another FANTASTIC episode. Thank you both for all of your hard work to help people discover the truth, and to help those who have already left, feel a sense of validation from others. Amazing work to you both!
Think Hyrum's comments on the first call were spot on. I have been inactive for more years than I was ever active. In that time, the church seems to have completely transformed into something really unremarkable in terms of its truth claims. "Plausible" is now the aspiration. And, as Hyrum put it, it's not just plausibility but "Deniable Plausibility" - the goalposts can always be moved and the justifications denied as new ones emerge. All of the allowances for human error were the very allowances I was told not to give the Catholic Church when I converted. I was unimpressed by the Catholic Church's pleading for understanding that the church is perfect even if it's servants aren't. I am more unimpressed when the most perfect, restored church cries for the same clemency it built it denied to others as it scrambled for growth.
I'm 62 and have lived in Utah my whole life. The church used to be the center of a utahns life. I don't recognize the LDS church of today. It's really unclear what we believe anymore. I've been looking into the Catholic church because they've survived as a church for 2000 years with very few doctrinal changes. It's a difficult position to be in though because I feel like a stranger in a foreign country. Mormonism of yesteryear was my home now I have no home.
Joan, trust Jesus, he is calling you home. He did NOT LIE when he said he would be with us and not allow the gates of Hades to prevail over the Catholic Church. One can always tell who truly believes Jesus because one only has two blasphemous choices: 1) Jesus lied when he said he would not allow Hades to prevail over the Church OR 2) That Jesus lied in his promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church AND the Holy Spirit failed to guide the Church.
Thank you for caring enough to reply. I listen to Catholic radio or podcasts all day everyday. I also read catholic authors. I am learning so much. Please pray for me that I will know the truth and be set free from all error.
I’ve been thinking a lot about how much the church moves the goalposts. Listening tonight made me realize they haven’t moved them. They’ve removed them from the field entirely.
“ The world goes here and we go there then they go here and we move here.” Holland says this with a straight face. He forgot to say ponderize before he spoke.
I was brought up as a casual Mormon, kind of on the "fringes of Zion" on the Idaho/Wyoming border. Not "indoctrinated properly", I became an apostate in middle age. I love my current state as an adherent of godless heathenry! .
If the Book of Mormon were true, it wouldn't contain any racist teachings, period. From 2 Nephi 5:21-23; “And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. 23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.” The Book of Mormon teaches that Native Americans have dark skin (or the "curse of redness") because their ancestors (the Lamanites) were cursed by God, but if Native Americans follow church teachings, their dark skin will be removed. What utter nonsense! There is zero evidence in the Holy Bible that God made humans have either dark or light skin as a means to set apart and distinguish the good from the bad. If the Book of Mormon were true, it wouldn't contain a single teaching that a certain group of people, were opposed to the Nephites, and therefore they were given dark skin. The three members of the LDS First Presidency and the twelve members of the LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles should all admit that no valid God-inspired scripture would contain a racist teaching, like what is in the Book of Mormon. The LDS top leaders all know that the Book of Mormon was made-up in the mind of Joseph Smith, and it is a work of fiction. But those same LDS leaders continue to promote and espouse LDS missionary work, where LDS missionaries visit uninformed and unsuspecting non-Mormon people, and tell those people that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. LDS missionary work is a major misrepresentation of what the LDS church is, and isn't, and what the Book of Mormon is, and isn't. Mormon missionary work therefore meets the definition of fraudulent.
Interesting the whole of so called Christianity have been anything but Christian or Christlike toward the African American Race throughout history, who want to pull us up on us not allowing Blacks certain blessings in the past! And condemn us over a Book they all claim to be a made up fraud. Also interesting is how the whole of so called Christianity preach ther God is going to send most of his Children ( Mankind ) to suffer and burn in Hell for Eternity becos they do not did not accept Jesus in this life! Even though they by definition may have lived good admirable "Christlike" lives. Loved ther fellowman obeyed all 10 commandments!? But because they didnt accept the Christ as the son of God? Ther God is going to send every last one of them to Burn in Hell Fire Forever??? Seems you all believe in a God not found within the precepts of Christianity and are blindly hypocritical!!! Valid point? ALways open to being corrected if I be wrong! Thanks. PS god is all good to send you to burn in hell fire forever BUT cursing a certain group of people with a darkened and loathsome appearance? Because they rebelled against the Gospel of Christ and the commands of God!!!??? Thats is just indispicable and so wrong!!! Remember.... ??? Gods ways are not our ways! The first shall be last and the last shall be first... I personally believe there are gonna be whole lot of Black people in the Highest Degree of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom ... because they joined this Church!!! PPS The Eternities is not divided into either Heaven or Hell!
The choices I've made in life because of hedging all my bets in this church are definitely not without consequence. How can I teach my kids to be honest when it is clear that credibility is not the number one principle held by the church. And if you have no credibility, your word means nothing.
I thought that the Kinderhook plates were created by guys who wanted to make Joseph look like a fool. At least there are a couple of guys who later made that claim.
It is just mind boggling how resilient belief is. To accept and argue the catalyst idea makes the members and leaders look like dodos to quote Elder Holland in the BBC interview. You cannot pin down someone who sees belief as a stand alone virtue. Critical thinking requires doubt and doubt just isn't accepted in faith circles. So critical thinking isn't what the church wants done inward only doubt the outsiders. a classic example of group think. Many believing are like John Gee. It has to be true so we bend over backwards to make silly arguments and fit square pegs into round holes.
Very well put. Only belief in a religion can bring such quick condemnation from others from similar but different belief systems, let alone the absolute condemnation that comes from not believing any of it. It is almost as if many of those that believe unconciously are unsure of their own belief and can only feel comfortable if everyone else believes the same. Any alternative may mean what you believe is make believe, so you are motivated to make others believe what you believe.
Well, do the numbers actually show that belief is resilient? Current numbers are that 1/3 of young Mormons will not stay in the church until they are adults. That sounds like a disaster to me.
One of your best discussions. Thank you. The bigger they are the harder they fall. The LDS Church is so cruel to its followers, especially ones who lose faith. There are many more doctrines are lies and/or questionable compared to traditional Christianity. There's more proof since the Church is only 200 years. So a follower has so many more things to question. When traditional 1:57:51 Christians lose faith, it's no big deal; there's no excommunication and shunning.
When I got Covid (and Long Covid) over 3 years ago I was too sick to do much of anything except read, watch videos and listen to music and podcasts. I’d just read “A House Full of Females” by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, and she had noted Todd Compton’s eye opening book “In Sacred Loneliness” in her list of resources. Having recently learned more about the truly ugly polygamy horror stories on both sides of my family I thought that perhaps I’d be able to understand it better by reading about its beginnings and implementation. By the end of the book I was so disgusted and angry that I decided to learn a lot more about the subject. Just before the pandemic my sister’s husband remarried in the temple after her death. I refused to attend because I knew that my sister, who loathed polygamy as much as I did because of the damage it had done to both sides of our family, would NEVER consent to being the first wife in a polygamous marriage. The rest of my family (except for her only child who was also angry about his dad’s disloyalty to his mother and who also refused to attend the sealing) and my BIL’s family couldn’t understand my anger. After explaining the situation further and having to introduce my other sibs to the truth about polygamy and “eternal polygamy” (my mom absolutely refused to discuss the matter) most of them were also terribly upset about the doctrine of polygamy too. To anyone in our family or in the the church who thought that we were being petty we would give them a list of books about polygamy written by LDS historians for their enlightenment. Knowing that polygamy was definitely NOT of God I decided to delve deeper into church history. My belief fell apart like a house of cards. Joseph was revealed by many different books and other resources to be a narcissist who didn’t care who he injured by his teachings and actions, a megalomaniac who actually had himself anointed and crowned the king of the entire earth, a sexual predator and a proven liar and fraud who, because of his charismatic personality, was able to convince large numbers of people to believe whatever he said. He was also a poor judge of character. I wonder what my ancestors who came to the US after their conversions would have thought if they had known back then what we now know about the church and its doctrines which both the missionaries and the church leaders kept hidden from them. Did they REALLY believe in Blood Atonement, Adam/God, that Black people couldn’t have the Priesthood or participate fully in the church, that Joseph Smith was the greatest human being on earth besides Jesus and more? Did they know that most of the endowment ceremony was taken almost word for word and signs for signs from Masonic rituals that began during the Middle Ages and NOT the Temple of Solomon? What did they think when they had to swear an oath to seek revenge on the men who killed Joseph and Hyrum plus their descendants and to mimic bloody and gruesome penalties from Free Masonry in the temple ceremony? Discovering all of these things and much more caused me to completely lose my trust in the leaders and the teachings. I still consider myself to be a follower of Jesus Christ and do my best to live and love as He showed and taught us to do and feel strongly that what the church teaches deviates from his gospel.
Like all religions, the LDS is a mixture of ethical teachings, community cohesion, doctrinal beliefs and practices. The truth claims and religious books of all religions are composed of many traditional legendary historical statements and personal conclusions of the authors and founding fathers of each which are at odds with each other and with general knowledge.
Yes, example: thousands of years before the legendary Jewish story of Cain and Abel (4000 BC) there were thousands of black skin Africans living on the continent of Africa who would speak over 2000 languages. Thousands of years before Cain and Abel (4000 BC) there were thousand of black skin aboriginal people living on the continent of Australia who would speak over200 languages. Thousand of years before Cain and Abel (4000 BC) there were thousands of brown skin native Americans living on the continents of the Americas who would speak over 600 languages. Common general knowledge shows the legendary myth of the Curse of Cain is not true but is a belief based on ignorance and racism. #ancientmythsuntruths
@2:17:00 From caller. 'Exactness' is also a utility to hyper-focus and have one's mind focused intently nonstop rather than to question. It's an effective mental limiter. If stature is given as per intensity on Exactness, GJ you just entrenched yourself even more and also stuck in the perfectionist bind with procedure.
If you have a strong self-awareness to identify 'emotional influence' and 'peer pressure' and have the ability to filter them out... you can see how the Spirit is mostly extinguished and at that time you can see all the plays, players, the encroaching, the belief en-spelled, and the belief entrenched. Takes awhile to self-discipline, but quite useful to find who's real, who's sucking down the koolaid, or who's protecting the koolaid stash. Doesn't mean you have to turn off those emotions and the ability to feel, but having a few lenses for utility purposes to troubleshoot community issues, etc... you can see what's going on pretty quick.
My grandpa was the Captain of his fire station and an active Mason. Way back in 1943 he joined the church. He was almost immeditely asked to denounce his Mason membership.
Joseph Smith morphing into Bradley Cooper is also a vital component of ongoing restoration. Who believes that such a beautiful work could be started by a stout little hook-nosed man?
You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking And after a while, you can work on points for style Like the club tie, and the firm handshake A certain look in the eye and an easy smile You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you get older And in the end you'll pack up and fly down south Hide your head in the sand, Just another sad old man All alone and dying of cancer And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone Dragged down by the stone (stone, stone, stone, stone, stone) I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze? Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner And everything's done under the sun And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer Who was born in a house full of pain Who was trained not to spit in the fan Who was told what to do by the man Who was broken by trained personnel Who was fitted with collar and chain Who was given a pat on the back Who was breaking away from the pack Who was only a stranger at home Who was ground down in the end Who was found dead on the phone Who was dragged down by the stone Source: LyricFind Songwriters: David Jon Gilmour / Roger Waters
I wonder if this is just preaching to the choir, i cant imagine a believing mormon subjecting themselves to this kind of overload of data that can only cause distress, im assuming your viewers want validation in their descision to leave the church, thank you either way, its real interesting, i think both of you played a role in my confidence to update my religious views
All religions are based upon scientifically unprovable assertions. Religion is based on belief and faith based opinions. All attempts to "prove" the truth of any religious belief is futile effort and is not provable. Belief in principles is a personal choice. There is a difference in belief in a structure or "organization" and the principles foundational to a religion. Most LDS members do not have the ability to separate the principles from the personalities/structure/organization and what has evolved over the last 160 years of compromise and concession. Again, the façade of leadership infallibility must be maintained at all cost. All efforts on the part of the machine that is the LDS church are focused on maintaining the status quo. Even if the "status quo" is constantly changing. If any person, "leader", organization or mechanism attempts to put someone or something in between you and God, then that entity is playing the part of the preacher. "So you want religion do you?" "I will have preachers here presently"
Why Mormonism,; it sound like traditional Christianity is more palable? Cults stay away from questions like this. Same for Evangelism/Pentecostal, Jehovah W, and some fringe Baptist denominations.
44:27 Death oaths? What? I thought I was just mimicking scratching the itch I had to tell others about the ordinances. Wow, now I get it! How revolting. At least I didn't have to get naked in a tub. Thank Joseph for that. No,.....that would be thank..... or.....nevermind, just glad I didn't have to get in the tub.
@@solosild45 feelings and intuition are unfortunately unreliable methods to discern truth. I would invite you to try more of a methodological approach where each truth claim and argument are tested to holdup individually. And whatch out for logical fallacies and use critical thinking skills. We wouldn't want to live a life under false pretenses, would we?
@@solosild45I'm sorry, 10% tithing to the Church would be better spent on some therapy, imho. I know I don't know you personally, but I know your type from your comments.
You're a brainwashed slave. Matthew 10:34-37 34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
The lack of a great apostasy was the first issue that took me down the path away from the church. There is no evidence for a hard apostasy, so the church is now having to totally say "well, what if it was a soft, gentle apostasy that's maybe still ongoing???"
the Apostle John in the Bible prophesied.... " and I saw an Angel flying in the midst of Heaven BRINGING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH BEFORE THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE COMING OF THE LORD" Perhaps someone can explain to me WHY God Almighty would find it necessary to send an angel to bring the Everlasting Gospel to Preach to the inhabitants of the earth IF the Bible was all God ever intended for us to have!!!??? Clearly according to this Bible Prophecy? The Bible does not contain the Everlasting Gospel!!! There certainly was an Apostacy and why the Angel Moroni had to deliver what he delivered!!! We as LDS boldly but humbly declare the angel John prophesied of, was the Angel Moroni who delivered the ancient divine scriptural record we have today as the Book Of Mormon translated by the prophet Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the Kingdom of God here on earth today!!! Simple Gospel Truth!!!
I was Mormon until my family and the church outright slapped me in the face and betrayed me and humiliated and embarrassed me and the church leader I had openly knowingly said to everyone at my branch that I was evil that I was a bad person that they shouldn’t talk to me or be my friend or spend time with me the leader said this to the entire branch right in front of me my family forced me my entire life to go to the church against my will my family used guilt trips shaming and things against me
Alot of information of the 'old world' Amaruka land of the plumed serpent, the ancient civilisations and other knowledge known by freemasons, JS used and twisted, JS put his own spin on, for story lines in the BOM. Alot of what JS has made into literal history, was symbolic in freemasonry. The people in the 1700s - 1800s were obsessed with magic, mysticism and ancient artifacts found all over the land. For instance making Quetzalcoatl into Jesus.
The Mormon church is true because Joe said so. Joe said he was greater than Christ so we know we gotta go with Joe. Joe deceived Emma marrying 20 women without her knowledge. Gotta go with Joe because he was such a great guy. He might lie to Emma but certainly he would never lie to me.....
Who could pay attention to that while the theme song from WKRP In Cincinnati was rattling through your brain? Mr. Carlson probably wasn't the best casting decision.
2:15:00 was it not George Q. Cannon who said that quote about "No wicked man could write such a book..."? I think I remember using that quote on my mission regularly. Or maybe it was John A. Widstoe? I dunno, or maybe you're right RFM and they were just quoting Parley.
Mormons (and exMos, apparently) use the word “true” in a very strange way. A statement can be true. I suppose you can even be true to your school. But an entire institution can’t be “true” in normal English usage. But then again, “recommend” is a verb, not a noun.
God is Great. We don't need a BOM (when we have the word of God). Have a blessed life. Joseph was a free mason, polygamist and deceived many. Seek the truth and u will find it.
@@JoshuaGreyJensen The 3 - day darkness,in those conditions, is not possible by Genesis1,14--i will let you refer.This concept of independent timekeeping is only possible by 18th century. J Smith is never pictured with watch or clock,as his peers. If this helps? Let me know.edit,18 not 28.
Not really anymore.I note my message was silly.I meant,where did he get his story?🤨I joined the. church many years ago.I have not really been active for some 5 years.
@@elainebeard2922 I know this may sound absurd but ANYONE who is a false prophet is ultimately motivated by Satan whether they know it or not. It is Orthodox Christian belief (across virtually all Catholic+Apostolic churches) that people who engage with occult practices such as seer stones open themselves to demonic possession. th-cam.com/video/Q7qExWLDAu0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kSS2cMwrzxcnfW-b Smith's claim to unknowable knowledge is a classic sign of possession. Watch from the 6 minute mark onwards. th-cam.com/video/cJdqyOHrOtI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5qXINecismJSjZrx The mockery and dilution of Jesus from uncreated God to a product of sex, are exactly what Satan does. And Mormons may refuse to believe it, but God has given us two Biblical tests to show who comes with truth in his name and who doesn't. Would you like me to shown you the proof?
@@elainebeard2922 you will not get a single source where he copied it from. I guess the answer is that he made it up. He did however integrate 19th century American influences from revival meetings, sermons, books he read, and Lucy Mack's biography tells us that Joseph regularly told stories at the fireside. He was a gifted story teller.
Men can become kings and priests to the most high god. Meaning there is a less high god...And, women can become queens and priestesses to the new and everlasting covenant...not god but his covenant. Bill already showed earlier what covenant, plural marriage.
What RFM and Bill failed to mention on the kinderhook plate and BOA symbol connection is the symbol in question was translated incorrectly as it is. So whether tight or loose it showsvJoseph don’t know how to translate anyway.
This video just popped up on my feed. I knew right away it was anti. Reading the comments confirmed it. My heart breaks for those who don't know. God loves you still and one day you will understand all things.
Joseph seems to have dictated words which were appearing before him. Those words certainly came from the plates but ultimately from the Lord Himself, (as it says in the Book of Mormon... "Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto their brethren..." (2 Nephi 3:21) Notice that it says "their words" and not "My words." The Lord is actually saying that He will be repeating the words of others to Joseph. Notice also that the Lord did not stipulate that those words would be coming from the Book of Mormon, the Bible or both. There was no "tight or loose' translation delivered by Joseph Smith or anyone else. There simply was no time for any of that. Only the words which Joseph saw and dictated to others (hence... "Prophet, Seer and Revelator.") It's useless to argue over a transition that never happened. Besides, "Translated by" was the publishers idea.
Can we maybe be a bit more generous on this notion of moving the goal posts? When one facet of a belief system is proven false, that does not inherently undermine the entire belief system. It seems really disingenuous to criticize the church or members for abandoning past truth claims now proven to be false (e.g., Native American origins) in a manner of changed belief rather than leaving the church. That’s not to delegitimize the conclusion that the BOM is an absolute fabrication-that is certainly a reasonable conclusion but it’s not the only logic-based conclusion. For example, the argument over a tight or loose translation ignores the possibility of a hybrid approach, which aligns much more closely with the known facts and circumstances. At any rate, what I believe we can say with certainty is that the error and ambiguity present in the text and the revelatory process in general is that the church lacks the basis for its claimed degree of surety in current policies and truth claims. It needs to accommodate a broader range of interpretation and allow members to oppose current teachings that display the signs of false traditions.
God provided us with a way to test the truth of Prophets by testing their Prophetic Predictions (God’s Promises). These prophecies are promises for the future that cannot be changed by the free agency of man. They can be specifically measured and judged if they are close-dated and unconditional in nature. Rule 1: Deuteronomy 18:22 (It Must Come True) When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Rule 2: D&C 1:37-39 (It Must Come True) Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen. Rule 3: President Ezra Taft Benson (It Must Come True) “The ultimate test of a true prophet is when he speaks in the name of the Lord, his words come to pass” (Deseret News, October 6, 1981, p. 6a) *_All of these rules principally agree; when Prophetic Predictions are close-dated and unconditional, they simply must come true. The free agency of man cannot change the outcome. If they don’t come to pass, the person who prophesied is a false prophet._* *Temple in Independence.* *_HAS THIS COME TRUE?_* In this revelation given on September 22 and 23, 1832, Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple to be built in Independence, Missouri. (D&C Section 84): 1. “A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. 2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, and that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5. For verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill his house.” 31. …which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the ‘consecrated spot as I have appointed.’” Verses four and five declare a “temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away” before the temple will be built. And this temple is to be built in Zion, which is Independence, Missouri. Over one hundred and eighty years later, there is still no Temple on the “temple lot” specified in this prophecy. Early Mormon leaders made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given in 1832. I'll be waiting for your answer, HAS JOSEPH SMITHS PROPHECY COME TRUE?
@@johnrowley310 That sounds like a relativistic argument. It's like saying there is no way to objectively know the truth and that all paths lead to the same God. Are Muslims correct in believing that Jesus is merely a prophet and not the Son of God? If they are incorrect, what is the basis for you telling them they are wrong?
If jesus is the messiah. And jesus or the messiah has not returned. We know this because the bible says what will happen when it does. I haven't seen ant imortal people. Then none of the Joseph Smith story could be true.
God has already given us a reliable method to determine the truth of Prophets whoncome in his name. God provided us with a way to test the truth of Prophets by testing their Prophetic Predictions (God’s Promises). These prophecies are promises for the future that cannot be changed by the free agency of man. They can be specifically measured and judged if they are close-dated and unconditional in nature. Rule 1: Deuteronomy 18:22 (It Must Come True) When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Rule 2: D&C 1:37-39 (It Must Come True) Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen. Rule 3: President Ezra Taft Benson (It Must Come True) “The ultimate test of a true prophet is when he speaks in the name of the Lord, his words come to pass” (Deseret News, October 6, 1981, p. 6a) *_All of these rules principally agree; when Prophetic Predictions are close-dated and unconditional, they simply must come true. The free agency of man cannot change the outcome. If they don’t come to pass, the person who prophesied is a false prophet._* *Temple in Independence.* *_HAS THIS COME TRUE?_* In this revelation given on September 22 and 23, 1832, Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple to be built in Independence, Missouri. (D&C Section 84): 1. “A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. 2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, and that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5. For verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill his house.” 31. …which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the ‘consecrated spot as I have appointed.’” Verses four and five declare a “temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away” before the temple will be built. And this temple is to be built in Zion, which is Independence, Missouri. Over one hundred and eighty years later, there is still no Temple on the “temple lot” specified in this prophecy. Early Mormon leaders made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given in 1832. Can we conclude that since this prophecy can never came true, that Joseph Smith is a false prophet of the type that St. Paul warned us of?
What year did they change the principal ancestors to" among the ancestors"? I wonder if that was before I left... Either way both are lies. Its not correct to say among because its all false ( BOM).
@@Themanyfacesofego Thank you. I had not updated my scriptures then so I didn't know that before I left. And of course the church and members were quiet about it.
![Mormonism After Dark [November 8th 2024]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_zl8yphWWaY/mqdefault.jpg)
![Getting Your Own Planet In Mormonism [Mormonism Live 205]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ejwjHLJY0Cw/mqdefault.jpg)
This statement nails it: "When your church changes, it's apostasy. when my church changes, it's continuous revelation"
NO NO, Believe what you want, just send in the money....
the ever merry go round religion Mormonism, continuise revelations, what a load of bull
I was a life-long member, returned missionary, temple-married and bishop. It was only after I allowed myself to consider outside discussions of the church that I walked away. I mostly credit sites like Mormon Discussions and Mr. Diety and dozens of others that allowed me to reflect on my doubts/beliefs and more importantly laugh at them and myself. Glad I left and so glad there are people willing to offer rational views of belief systems even when it seems no one is listening. People are walking away, it's just that most of them are quiet like myself.
We have a LOT in common my friend. I did exact same thing in exact same position.
@@mss3834 Hope your family survived the changes. I was lucky, my kids and siblings have had no problem with it. My wife never accepted even the possibility that I had lost my faith and has since passed away, or that would have been a rather difficult situation though I loved her with my whole heart.
Please take a moment and look up ex morman files with bishop earl. He did too and found LIFE
@@mckster56 If Earl Erskine, I have listened to his story. I used the same critical exam of the Mormon church and BoM with the Bible and other churches. I found every single church to be, at best, disingenuous about the origin and meaning of the Bible and decietful in the interpretation of verses. I have spent the last 15 years listening to apologists and reading many religious texts. None of them convince me of their sincerity or any knowledge of any God. If you leave mormonism and yet need religion to give your life meaning, then so be it. Although receptive to God if He decides to initiate communication, I have come to the conclusion that based on available texts and countless interpretations of them I cannot tell which version of God is real. The LDS church just emphasized "live what we tell you and you will find it is true". This is almost exactly what different groups say. This relies heavily on confirmation of preconceived biases. I will never rely on that methodology again. If someone has some reliable evidence that what they believe truly reflects God's will without any alteration by man, then I am willing to listen. Otherwise I have no interest whatsover.
@@rickskepticalno the marriage failed after 30 yr. The irony is she left the church several years later. She said some very cruel things about how I tossed our temple marriage out etc and then she left. I am mentally and emotionally healthy now but those were some difficult years
Anyone who goes around claiming I Speak for God is a fraud.
What a load of cobblers! Did Moses or Adam speak on behalf of God? Sure they did, that is how we got scripture! So if you took time to read and learn, then you would understand how men in mortality can speak on behalf of God. That is precisely why God gave men the Priesthood!
@@markmorley7938 some are just so stoooopidly ignorantly blinded!!! Sad!!!
@markmorley7938 hi just saw this. First you are assuming that books of scripture rather than allegory. Second priesthood is man ordained authority. Third anyone who goes around speaking for God is a fraud. No one knows the mind of God. Happy Halloween 🎃
@@jferristube oh grow up. No wizard in Oz.
@@marquitaarmstrong399
wow!!!
Ya thought that line up all on your lonesome LOL marq LOL
Yes I agree.... I dont believe in the wizard of Oz myself!!! LOL
I'm constantly dumbfounded by 1. How obviously and demonstrably false this religion is and 2. How impossible it is to convince LDS people that this is the case
If you’re born into it, like I was, it’s very difficult to break free. It’s cult mind control 💯
Umm, is a talking snake on the table for discussion?
The arbitrary curse placed upon those who dare to add to scripture at the the end of Revalations?
One could arguably assert that the entire Christian faith is "fraudulent" to the eyes of Judaists.
Look at all the spin-offs(denominations) of Christianity...
Are you not telling that their contribution is null based on similar grounds?
Truer words.
I wanted to reply to you but preferred to post separately so it would be slightly more visible. We are leaving. Very few make it a public matter. The LDS church has already changed a lot since my childhood, trying to hold its membership. I cannot see it surviving unless it drops its most extreme views and adopts a more mainstream approach which I think it will do little by little. Either that or it will use one of its investment accounts and just buy the whole country. :) Take care.
@@krismurphy7711 But the church has survived changing "unchangeable" ordinances and by modifying doctrine and then excusing it simply as changing "policy". Most of the active members swallow it whole. The possible shame/embarrassment of leaving maintains much of the status quo and so I do believe it could eventually drop JS to a secondary role, drop any idea that the BoM can represent any historical events and do it little by little while many members will swallow the changes whole. Who knows what the church will look like in another hundred years changing as quickly as it has since the 1960's? The only sure thing is that it will not be what we know today.
I was a 45 year Catholic who left and eventually joined the Mormon Church after a daughter became a member and I liked what I saw.
The Mormon people are the kindest people on Earth.
Their Church encourages fellowship among members and the constant "pot-lucks" encourage real Christian comradery. I will never take that away from the Church.
After 15 years as a Mormon, I left when I came to the realization that the "upper echelon" of the Mormon Church
have their hand "in your wallet" with their tithing requirements.
I needed to help my daughter survive after a bad divorce and a bishop told me that supporting the church was more important
than supporting family members. I left and never looked back!
What Church do you belong to now?
People can be so kind but that doesn't mean they aren't being deceived. The devil is a liar. God is great. The word of God (the bible is the only book u need) Praise the Lord u left.
@@marygreen2672
Mary, you are right,
but there is no "one path to God."
The devil doesn't exist. That is Old Testament!
God is love!!! That is New Testament!
We live in the Jesus: New Testament era!
Good Mormons go to heaven!
@@leoinsf , the devil exists. All good people don't go to heaven . Read your bible (the word of God).
@@leoinsf , the devil is mentioned in the new testament 30 something times
The more the miracles of the Restoration are studied, the less miraculous the stories become. From a divinely-directed tight translation of ancient languages to mere revelation. From a translation of writings from the hand of Abraham to a catalyzed revelation. From having the documented history of the origins of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas to not knowing what Lehite DNA would even look like. From being super specific about the historicity of Biblical events, the causes of diversity in skin tone, the causes of variant sexual orientation and gender identity to having "no official position". From a temple to last through the Millennium to an edifice requiring major renovations to make it through the next century.
Time and information have been unkind to the Restoration.
And ______ in general
There are countless miracle stories circulated over and over from the 3 nephites to monson readjusting his dentures over and over talking about milk strippings when that like all of them are total fabrications.
Simply another FANTASTIC episode. Thank you both for all of your hard work to help people discover the truth, and to help those who have already left, feel a sense of validation from others. Amazing work to you both!
I absolutely love these presentations from you two. Great episode. Thank you.
Thank you so much
Yes…plurality of wives (polygamy) was taught as being mandatory for exaltation in the highest Mormon heaven. Read the history.
Think Hyrum's comments on the first call were spot on. I have been inactive for more years than I was ever active. In that time, the church seems to have completely transformed into something really unremarkable in terms of its truth claims. "Plausible" is now the aspiration. And, as Hyrum put it, it's not just plausibility but "Deniable Plausibility" - the goalposts can always be moved and the justifications denied as new ones emerge. All of the allowances for human error were the very allowances I was told not to give the Catholic Church when I converted. I was unimpressed by the Catholic Church's pleading for understanding that the church is perfect even if it's servants aren't. I am more unimpressed when the most perfect, restored church cries for the same clemency it built it denied to others as it scrambled for growth.
can you please give me examples of the goal posts being moved? Thanks!
I'm 62 and have lived in Utah my whole life. The church used to be the center of a utahns life. I don't recognize the LDS church of today. It's really unclear what we believe anymore. I've been looking into the Catholic church because they've survived as a church for 2000 years with very few doctrinal changes. It's a difficult position to be in though because I feel like a stranger in a foreign country. Mormonism of yesteryear was my home now I have no home.
Interesting thoughts. Thank you for sharing. What is it in your experience that you don’t recognize anymore from the Mormons of yesteryear?
Joan, trust Jesus, he is calling you home. He did NOT LIE when he said he would be with us and not allow the gates of Hades to prevail over the Catholic Church. One can always tell who truly believes Jesus because one only has two blasphemous choices:
1) Jesus lied when he said he would not allow Hades to prevail over the Church
OR
2) That Jesus lied in his promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church AND the Holy Spirit failed to guide the Church.
The devil has been around a long time but that doesn't mean he isn't deceiving people. God is great. Have a blessed life.
Thank you for caring enough to reply. I listen to Catholic radio or podcasts all day everyday. I also read catholic authors. I am learning so much. Please pray for me that I will know the truth and be set free from all error.
@@joanlantis4497 , prayers for u. God is great. Have a blessed day. 💜😇💜😇
I’ve been thinking a lot about how much the church moves the goalposts. Listening tonight made me realize they haven’t moved them. They’ve removed them from the field entirely.
Well said
“ The world goes here and we go there then they go here and we move here.” Holland says this with a straight face. He forgot to say ponderize before he spoke.
I was brought up as a casual Mormon, kind of on the "fringes of Zion" on the Idaho/Wyoming border. Not "indoctrinated properly", I became an apostate in middle age. I love my current state as an adherent of godless heathenry!
.
If the Book of Mormon were true, it wouldn't contain any racist teachings, period. From 2 Nephi 5:21-23; “And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. 23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.”
The Book of Mormon teaches that Native Americans have dark skin (or the "curse of redness") because their ancestors (the Lamanites) were cursed by God, but if Native Americans follow church teachings, their dark skin will be removed. What utter nonsense! There is zero evidence in the Holy Bible that God made humans have either dark or light skin as a means to set apart and distinguish the good from the bad. If the Book of Mormon were true, it wouldn't contain a single teaching that a certain group of people, were opposed to the Nephites, and therefore they were given dark skin.
The three members of the LDS First Presidency and the twelve members of the LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles should all admit that no valid God-inspired scripture would contain a racist teaching, like what is in the Book of Mormon. The LDS top leaders all know that the Book of Mormon was made-up in the mind of Joseph Smith, and it is a work of fiction. But those same LDS leaders continue to promote and espouse LDS missionary work, where LDS missionaries visit uninformed and unsuspecting non-Mormon people, and tell those people that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. LDS missionary work is a major misrepresentation of what the LDS church is, and isn't, and what the Book of Mormon is, and isn't. Mormon missionary work therefore meets the definition of fraudulent.
Interesting the whole of so called Christianity have been anything but Christian or Christlike toward the African American Race throughout history, who want to pull us up on us not allowing Blacks certain blessings in the past! And condemn us over a Book they all claim to be a made up fraud.
Also interesting is how the whole of so called Christianity preach ther God is going to send most of his Children ( Mankind ) to suffer and burn in Hell for Eternity becos they do not did not accept Jesus in this life! Even though they by definition may have lived good admirable "Christlike" lives. Loved ther fellowman obeyed all 10 commandments!? But because they didnt accept the Christ as the son of God? Ther God is going to send every last one of them to Burn in Hell Fire Forever??? Seems you all believe in a God not found within the precepts of Christianity and are blindly hypocritical!!! Valid point? ALways open to being corrected if I be wrong! Thanks.
PS
god is all good to send you to burn in hell fire forever BUT cursing a certain group of people with a darkened and loathsome appearance? Because they rebelled against the Gospel of Christ and the commands of God!!!???
Thats is just indispicable and so wrong!!!
Remember....
???
Gods ways are not our ways!
The first shall be last and the last shall be first...
I personally believe there are gonna be whole lot of Black people in the Highest Degree of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom ... because they joined this Church!!!
PPS
The Eternities is not divided into either Heaven or Hell!
I respect All you do to help us understand the live that we burned for the church
The doctrine has changed so much there's no such thing as traditional or true Latter Day Saintism anymore. We'll keep looking though.
1:45:05 when a TBM says they don’t care what someone said 200 years ago, they better include JS in that justification. Lol
It makes me wonder how they deal with things Jesus may have said.
@@theschnauz2138 Not a problem. Joe was greater than Jesus. Word is he became a full god in heaven around the year 1937....
The tenets of Mormonism is hilarious
You two are amazing. I love your videos. Thank you for all you do.
The choices I've made in life because of hedging all my bets in this church are definitely not without consequence. How can I teach my kids to be honest when it is clear that credibility is not the number one principle held by the church. And if you have no credibility, your word means nothing.
The bs💩🦬 stacks up so high ye need wings to stay above it.
We lift the church..
I thought that the Kinderhook plates were created by guys who wanted to make Joseph look like a fool. At least there are a couple of guys who later made that claim.
I think they succeeded
I understood it that way too. They let him know they were onto his lies.
Read Clayton’s journal and you’ll see the plan to expose the fake prophetic mantle and translation of ANY of Mr. Smith’s claims of translation.
It is just mind boggling how resilient belief is. To accept and argue the catalyst idea makes the members and leaders look like dodos to quote Elder Holland in the BBC interview. You cannot pin down someone who sees belief as a stand alone virtue. Critical thinking requires doubt and doubt just isn't accepted in faith circles. So critical thinking isn't what the church wants done inward only doubt the outsiders. a classic example of group think. Many believing are like John Gee. It has to be true so we bend over backwards to make silly arguments and fit square pegs into round holes.
Very well put. Only belief in a religion can bring such quick condemnation from others from similar but different belief systems, let alone the absolute condemnation that comes from not believing any of it. It is almost as if many of those that believe unconciously are unsure of their own belief and can only feel comfortable if everyone else believes the same. Any alternative may mean what you believe is make believe, so you are motivated to make others believe what you believe.
Square pegs can fit in round holes once the pegs are rounded or the holes squared. Good luck🤞
But if you leave know Celestial sex for you...
Well, do the numbers actually show that belief is resilient? Current numbers are that 1/3 of young Mormons will not stay in the church until they are adults. That sounds like a disaster to me.
It is impossible to conclude the mormonism is true. And yet... just no critical thinking or thinking of any kind one supposes.
One of your best discussions. Thank you.
The bigger they are the harder they fall.
The LDS Church is so cruel to its followers, especially ones who lose faith. There are many more doctrines are lies and/or questionable compared to traditional Christianity. There's more proof since the Church is only 200 years. So a follower has so many more things to question. When traditional 1:57:51 Christians lose faith, it's no big deal; there's no excommunication and shunning.
When I got Covid (and Long Covid) over 3 years ago I was too sick to do much of anything except read, watch videos and listen to music and podcasts. I’d just read “A House Full of Females” by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, and she had noted Todd Compton’s eye opening book “In Sacred Loneliness” in her list of resources. Having recently learned more about the truly ugly polygamy horror stories on both sides of my family I thought that perhaps I’d be able to understand it better by reading about its beginnings and implementation. By the end of the book I was so disgusted and angry that I decided to learn a lot more about the subject.
Just before the pandemic my sister’s husband remarried in the temple after her death. I refused to attend because I knew that my sister, who loathed polygamy as much as I did because of the damage it had done to both sides of our family, would NEVER consent to being the first wife in a polygamous marriage. The rest of my family (except for her only child who was also angry about his dad’s disloyalty to his mother and who also refused to attend the sealing) and my BIL’s family couldn’t understand my anger. After explaining the situation further and having to introduce my other sibs to the truth about polygamy and “eternal polygamy” (my mom absolutely refused to discuss the matter) most of them were also terribly upset about the doctrine of polygamy too. To anyone in our family or in the the church who thought that we were being petty we would give them a list of books about polygamy written by LDS historians for their enlightenment.
Knowing that polygamy was definitely NOT of God I decided to delve deeper into church history. My belief fell apart like a house of cards. Joseph was revealed by many different books and other resources to be a narcissist who didn’t care who he injured by his teachings and actions, a megalomaniac who actually had himself anointed and crowned the king of the entire earth, a sexual predator and a proven liar and fraud who, because of his charismatic personality, was able to convince large numbers of people to believe whatever he said. He was also a poor judge of character.
I wonder what my ancestors who came to the US after their conversions would have thought if they had known back then what we now know about the church and its doctrines which both the missionaries and the church leaders kept hidden from them. Did they REALLY believe in Blood Atonement, Adam/God, that Black people couldn’t have the Priesthood or participate fully in the church, that Joseph Smith was the greatest human being on earth besides Jesus and more? Did they know that most of the endowment ceremony was taken almost word for word and signs for signs from Masonic rituals that began during the Middle Ages and NOT the Temple of Solomon? What did they think when they had to swear an oath to seek revenge on the men who killed Joseph and Hyrum plus their descendants and to mimic bloody and gruesome penalties from Free Masonry in the temple ceremony? Discovering all of these things and much more caused me to completely lose my trust in the leaders and the teachings.
I still consider myself to be a follower of Jesus Christ and do my best to live and love as He showed and taught us to do and feel strongly that what the church teaches deviates from his gospel.
Thank you for sharing this, it was very moving. Sending hugs and good vibes.☮️🤍
Try getting some therapy
Wow!!! One of the best videos I’ve watched here on TH-cam. Hitting that subscribe for sure.
"It's not a lie, if you believe it, Jerry!"
-- George Costanza
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Like all religions, the LDS is a mixture of ethical teachings, community cohesion, doctrinal beliefs and practices. The truth claims and religious books of all religions are composed of many traditional legendary historical statements and personal conclusions of the authors and founding fathers of each which are at odds with each other and with general knowledge.
So you agree its truth claims don't hold up?
You’ve missed off about $250 billion . The rest is moot.
Yes, example: thousands of years before the legendary Jewish story of Cain and Abel (4000 BC) there were thousands of black skin Africans living on the continent of Africa who would speak over 2000 languages. Thousands of years before Cain and Abel (4000 BC) there were thousand of black skin aboriginal people living on the continent of Australia who would speak over200 languages. Thousand of years before Cain and Abel (4000 BC) there were thousands of brown skin native Americans living on the continents of the Americas who would speak over 600 languages. Common general knowledge shows the legendary myth of the Curse of Cain is not true but is a belief based on ignorance and racism. #ancientmythsuntruths
That’s not true of “all religions”, but it is true if western religions.
I went to the above hash tag site but it has closed. 😢
@2:17:00 From caller. 'Exactness' is also a utility to hyper-focus and have one's mind focused intently nonstop rather than to question. It's an effective mental limiter. If stature is given as per intensity on Exactness, GJ you just entrenched yourself even more and also stuck in the perfectionist bind with procedure.
Yes, thank you for asking.
This is why, when people form opinions based on emotions, no amount of evidence or facts. Can change your mind. It doesn’t matter irrelevant
If you have a strong self-awareness to identify 'emotional influence' and 'peer pressure' and have the ability to filter them out... you can see how the Spirit is mostly extinguished and at that time you can see all the plays, players, the encroaching, the belief en-spelled, and the belief entrenched.
Takes awhile to self-discipline, but quite useful to find who's real, who's sucking down the koolaid, or who's protecting the koolaid stash.
Doesn't mean you have to turn off those emotions and the ability to feel, but having a few lenses for utility purposes to troubleshoot community issues, etc... you can see what's going on pretty quick.
My grandpa was the Captain of his fire station and an active Mason. Way back in 1943 he joined the church. He was almost immeditely asked to denounce his Mason membership.
29:39 Só dabbling with the occult creates a Prophet? 😂
Great book entitled “ This is my Doctrine “ by Charles Harrell. Well documented new book.
I think the items discussed, and others, could be determined to be called "False traditions of the Fathers."
Excellent episode!!!!!!
Joseph Smith morphing into Bradley Cooper is also a vital component of ongoing restoration. Who believes that such a beautiful work could be started by a stout little hook-nosed man?
Con men come in many forms…🤑
Fantastic work as always 👏👏👏
That being said I enjoy your show sir however or wherever you stand it's entertaining to say the least
I feel so sad for those who have been so brainwashed and
The barn is the target and anything that hits the barn is true.
You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need
You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street
You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed
And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight
You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking
And after a while, you can work on points for style
Like the club tie, and the firm handshake
A certain look in the eye and an easy smile
You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to
So that when they turn their backs on you,
You'll get the chance to put the knife in
You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder
You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you get older
And in the end you'll pack up and fly down south
Hide your head in the sand,
Just another sad old man
All alone and dying of cancer
And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown
And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone
And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone
Dragged down by the stone (stone, stone, stone, stone, stone)
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?
Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending
That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend
And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner
And everything's done under the sun
And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer
Who was born in a house full of pain
Who was trained not to spit in the fan
Who was told what to do by the man
Who was broken by trained personnel
Who was fitted with collar and chain
Who was given a pat on the back
Who was breaking away from the pack
Who was only a stranger at home
Who was ground down in the end
Who was found dead on the phone
Who was dragged down by the stone
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: David Jon Gilmour / Roger Waters
Love Dogs!!!
Is there a video or a blog post explaining why the list at the beginning relies on a tight translation?
RFM: Could you do a probono case for me regarding the LDS church? Thank You, David.
I wonder if this is just preaching to the choir, i cant imagine a believing mormon subjecting themselves to this kind of overload of data that can only cause distress, im assuming your viewers want validation in their descision to leave the church, thank you either way, its real interesting, i think both of you played a role in my confidence to update my religious views
All religions are based upon scientifically unprovable assertions. Religion is based on belief and faith based opinions. All attempts to "prove" the truth of any religious belief is futile effort and is not provable. Belief in principles is a personal choice. There is a difference in belief in a structure or "organization" and the principles foundational to a religion. Most LDS members do not have the ability to separate the principles from the personalities/structure/organization and what has evolved over the last 160 years of compromise and concession. Again, the façade of leadership infallibility must be maintained at all cost. All efforts on the part of the machine that is the LDS church are focused on maintaining the status quo. Even if the "status quo" is constantly changing. If any person, "leader", organization or mechanism attempts to put someone or something in between you and God, then that entity is playing the part of the preacher. "So you want religion do you?" "I will have preachers here presently"
Why Mormonism,; it sound like traditional Christianity is more palable?
Cults stay away from questions like this. Same for Evangelism/Pentecostal, Jehovah W, and some fringe Baptist denominations.
44:27 Death oaths? What? I thought I was just mimicking scratching the itch I had to tell others about the ordinances. Wow, now I get it! How revolting. At least I didn't have to get naked in a tub. Thank Joseph for that. No,.....that would be thank..... or.....nevermind, just glad I didn't have to get in the tub.
ALSO LDS: MOVING ON...
I Can just say that I know This is true🥰 God knows that I know,so after 30 years Inactiviti,I am finily back🤗
I wish You Both the Best😍
What is the epistemology that you used to be able to prove that it is true?
The holy goast🥰🤗😘❤
After a sincere prayer and rependense ,to seek forgivnes for All my sins,Who
Were many😘
@@solosild45 feelings and intuition are unfortunately unreliable methods to discern truth. I would invite you to try more of a methodological approach where each truth claim and argument are tested to holdup individually. And whatch out for logical fallacies and use critical thinking skills.
We wouldn't want to live a life under false pretenses, would we?
@@solosild45I'm sorry, 10% tithing to the Church would be better spent on some therapy, imho. I know I don't know you personally, but I know your type from your comments.
Christ is the good within people.
You're a brainwashed slave.
Matthew 10:34-37
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
RFM - 1:28:25 "disinfected"? LOL. What a Freudian slip. If on purpose, I salute your dead pan timing.
Thanks!
You bet! Thank you !!!
The lack of a great apostasy was the first issue that took me down the path away from the church. There is no evidence for a hard apostasy, so the church is now having to totally say "well, what if it was a soft, gentle apostasy that's maybe still ongoing???"
the Apostle John in the Bible prophesied....
" and I saw an Angel flying in the midst of Heaven BRINGING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH BEFORE THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE COMING OF THE LORD"
Perhaps someone can explain to me WHY God Almighty would find it necessary to send an angel to bring the Everlasting Gospel to Preach to the inhabitants of the earth IF the Bible was all God ever intended for us to have!!!???
Clearly according to this Bible Prophecy? The Bible does not contain the Everlasting Gospel!!!
There certainly was an Apostacy and why the Angel Moroni had to deliver what he delivered!!!
We as LDS boldly but humbly declare the angel John prophesied of, was the Angel Moroni who delivered the ancient divine scriptural record we have today as the Book Of Mormon translated by the prophet Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the Kingdom of God here on earth today!!!
Simple Gospel Truth!!!
What do you practice as an attorney? Thank You, David.
I was Mormon until my family and the church outright slapped me in the face and betrayed me and humiliated and embarrassed me and the church leader I had openly knowingly said to everyone at my branch that I was evil that I was a bad person that they shouldn’t talk to me or be my friend or spend time with me the leader said this to the entire branch right in front of me my family forced me my entire life to go to the church against my will my family used guilt trips shaming and things against me
Those people will be held accountable. I'm so sorry that happened to you. 😢
you bad boy
Alot of information of the 'old world' Amaruka land of the plumed serpent, the ancient civilisations and other knowledge known by freemasons, JS used and twisted, JS put his own spin on, for story lines in the BOM. Alot of what JS has made into literal history, was symbolic in freemasonry. The people in the 1700s - 1800s were obsessed with magic, mysticism and ancient artifacts found all over the land. For instance making Quetzalcoatl into Jesus.
What is your response to the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith?
The Mormon church is true because Joe said so. Joe said he was greater than Christ so we know we gotta go with Joe. Joe deceived Emma marrying 20 women without her knowledge. Gotta go with Joe because he was such a great guy. He might lie to Emma but certainly he would never lie to me.....
Harry Potter translation with sentences appearing and disappearing. Oh, Lord!!!
33:42 In the 80’s the priest in the temple film was clearly a Catholic.
I didn't even remem 1:46:48 ber there was a priest. 😅😂did endowments once, too creepy to repeat.
@@krismurphy7711 He was collared and in black. Being from the SW the Protestant didn’t use collars only the Catholic fathers
Who could pay attention to that while the theme song from WKRP In Cincinnati was rattling through your brain? Mr. Carlson probably wasn't the best casting decision.
@@MexiKen516 exactly lol
2:15:00 was it not George Q. Cannon who said that quote about "No wicked man could write such a book..."? I think I remember using that quote on my mission regularly. Or maybe it was John A. Widstoe? I dunno, or maybe you're right RFM and they were just quoting Parley.
Mormons (and exMos, apparently) use the word “true” in a very strange way. A statement can be true. I suppose you can even be true to your school. But an entire institution can’t be “true” in normal English usage. But then again, “recommend” is a verb, not a noun.
It is true, I know it's true, mom said it was true. it has to be true true, true, true, true, true, true.......
i have a testimony of it's truth.
Thanks for telling us.
If it’s really true after all that we know; what would make it false?
Hey RFM Darrel Bogar was o mason and told me the rituals were the same! 3:49
The timestamp is unrelated to your comment.
Mormonism, Its not a lie if you believe it...
I got this one, no!
God is Great. We don't need a BOM (when we have the word of God). Have a blessed life. Joseph was a free mason, polygamist and deceived many. Seek the truth and u will find it.
BOMormon3Nephi8 "darkness" is not true and consistent with Genesis1--which it should foundationally be.☀️🌌
What?
@@JoshuaGreyJensen The 3 - day darkness,in those conditions, is not possible by Genesis1,14--i will let you refer.This concept of independent timekeeping is only possible by 18th century. J Smith is never pictured with watch or clock,as his peers. If this helps? Let me know.edit,18 not 28.
@@rochcarothers-ts3jxIt is important to take the medicine as prescribed, otherwise the outcomes are uncertain.
@@gcarson19 obviously, you do not read your Bible,Book of Mormon ,etc. Or maybe you did not like what you read?
Well will someone enlighten me? How. Did Joseph Smith write the. Book o f Abraham,where did he eat his story?🧐
Are you an active LDS member?
Not really anymore.I note my message was silly.I meant,where did he get his story?🤨I joined the. church many years ago.I have not really been active for some 5 years.
@@elainebeard2922 I know this may sound absurd but ANYONE who is a false prophet is ultimately motivated by Satan whether they know it or not. It is Orthodox Christian belief (across virtually all Catholic+Apostolic churches) that people who engage with occult practices such as seer stones open themselves to demonic possession.
th-cam.com/video/Q7qExWLDAu0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kSS2cMwrzxcnfW-b
Smith's claim to unknowable knowledge is a classic sign of possession. Watch from the 6 minute mark onwards.
th-cam.com/video/cJdqyOHrOtI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5qXINecismJSjZrx
The mockery and dilution of Jesus from uncreated God to a product of sex, are exactly what Satan does.
And Mormons may refuse to believe it, but God has given us two Biblical tests to show who comes with truth in his name and who doesn't. Would you like me to shown you the proof?
@@elainebeard2922 you will not get a single source where he copied it from. I guess the answer is that he made it up. He did however integrate 19th century American influences from revival meetings, sermons, books he read, and Lucy Mack's biography tells us that Joseph regularly told stories at the fireside. He was a gifted story teller.
Men can become kings and priests to the most high god. Meaning there is a less high god...And, women can become queens and priestesses to the new and everlasting covenant...not god but his covenant. Bill already showed earlier what covenant, plural marriage.
The Sun of God is the most high at 12 noon ;)
What RFM and Bill failed to mention on the kinderhook plate and BOA symbol connection is the symbol in question was translated incorrectly as it is. So whether tight or loose it showsvJoseph don’t know how to translate anyway.
The "Greek psalter" and the "Kinderhook Plates" were a big factor in my determination that JS was an awful faker.
Lovely
This video just popped up on my feed. I knew right away it was anti. Reading the comments confirmed it. My heart breaks for those who don't know. God loves you still and one day you will understand all things.
How about watching the actual video. You will learn a lot you didn't know, because the church lied to you.
The church is totally unconcerned with making a single lick of goddamn logical sense
The baptismal form is creepy!
Joseph seems to have dictated words which were appearing before him. Those words certainly came from the plates but ultimately from the Lord Himself, (as it says in the Book of Mormon...
"Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto
their brethren..." (2 Nephi 3:21)
Notice that it says "their words" and not "My words." The Lord is actually saying that He will be repeating the words of others to Joseph.
Notice also that the Lord did not stipulate that those words would be coming from the Book of Mormon, the Bible or both.
There was no "tight or loose' translation delivered by Joseph Smith or anyone else. There simply was no time for any of that. Only the words which Joseph saw and dictated to others (hence... "Prophet, Seer and Revelator.")
It's useless to argue over a transition that never happened. Besides, "Translated by" was the publishers idea.
Can we maybe be a bit more generous on this notion of moving the goal posts? When one facet of a belief system is proven false, that does not inherently undermine the entire belief system. It seems really disingenuous to criticize the church or members for abandoning past truth claims now proven to be false (e.g., Native American origins) in a manner of changed belief rather than leaving the church.
That’s not to delegitimize the conclusion that the BOM is an absolute fabrication-that is certainly a reasonable conclusion but it’s not the only logic-based conclusion.
For example, the argument over a tight or loose translation ignores the possibility of a hybrid approach, which aligns much more closely with the known facts and circumstances.
At any rate, what I believe we can say with certainty is that the error and ambiguity present in the text and the revelatory process in general is that the church lacks the basis for its claimed degree of surety in current policies and truth claims. It needs to accommodate a broader range of interpretation and allow members to oppose current teachings that display the signs of false traditions.
God provided us with a way to test the truth of Prophets by testing their Prophetic Predictions (God’s Promises). These prophecies are promises for the future that cannot be changed by the free agency of man. They can be specifically measured and judged if they are close-dated and unconditional in nature.
Rule 1: Deuteronomy 18:22 (It Must Come True)
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Rule 2: D&C 1:37-39 (It Must Come True)
Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Rule 3: President Ezra Taft Benson (It Must Come True)
“The ultimate test of a true prophet is when he speaks in the name of the Lord, his words come to pass” (Deseret News, October 6, 1981, p. 6a)
*_All of these rules principally agree; when Prophetic Predictions are close-dated and unconditional, they simply must come true. The free agency of man cannot change the outcome. If they don’t come to pass, the person who prophesied is a false prophet._*
*Temple in Independence.*
*_HAS THIS COME TRUE?_*
In this revelation given on September 22 and 23, 1832, Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple to be built in Independence, Missouri. (D&C Section 84):
1. “A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, and that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5. For verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill his house.”
31. …which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the ‘consecrated spot as I have appointed.’”
Verses four and five declare a “temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away” before the temple will be built. And this temple is to be built in Zion, which is Independence, Missouri. Over one hundred and eighty years later, there is still no Temple on the “temple lot” specified in this prophecy. Early Mormon leaders made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given in 1832.
I'll be waiting for your answer, HAS JOSEPH SMITHS PROPHECY COME TRUE?
Mormonism its not a lie if you believe it.....
@@johnrowley310 That sounds like a relativistic argument. It's like saying there is no way to objectively know the truth and that all paths lead to the same God.
Are Muslims correct in believing that Jesus is merely a prophet and not the Son of God? If they are incorrect, what is the basis for you telling them they are wrong?
There is no Abraham in BOA
Y didn't the witnesses around Joseph Smith tell the story immediately after they witnesses it!
What you are doing is way better than what the church is doing!
Do a show that you bring on rape victim and tell how it changed the person they would have been...,.and I feel like I imagine how they feel!!¡
They raped my hope,it hurts!!!!!
The Demon Mormo with the sidekick Muleki
Oh baloney. God bless
The Literal Church?
It's true!
LDS :Well, we tried to be supra christianity. Lets take a swing at being unitarian. The audience seems more friendly over there...
49:41 Sad truth, the lamanites all died in the moutain meadows massacre.
If jesus is the messiah. And jesus or the messiah has not returned. We know this because the bible says what will happen when it does. I haven't seen ant imortal people.
Then none of the Joseph Smith story could be true.
God has already given us a reliable method to determine the truth of Prophets whoncome in his name.
God provided us with a way to test the truth of Prophets by testing their Prophetic Predictions (God’s Promises). These prophecies are promises for the future that cannot be changed by the free agency of man. They can be specifically measured and judged if they are close-dated and unconditional in nature.
Rule 1: Deuteronomy 18:22 (It Must Come True)
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Rule 2: D&C 1:37-39 (It Must Come True)
Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Rule 3: President Ezra Taft Benson (It Must Come True)
“The ultimate test of a true prophet is when he speaks in the name of the Lord, his words come to pass” (Deseret News, October 6, 1981, p. 6a)
*_All of these rules principally agree; when Prophetic Predictions are close-dated and unconditional, they simply must come true. The free agency of man cannot change the outcome. If they don’t come to pass, the person who prophesied is a false prophet._*
*Temple in Independence.*
*_HAS THIS COME TRUE?_*
In this revelation given on September 22 and 23, 1832, Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple to be built in Independence, Missouri. (D&C Section 84):
1. “A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, and that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5. For verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill his house.”
31. …which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the ‘consecrated spot as I have appointed.’”
Verses four and five declare a “temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away” before the temple will be built. And this temple is to be built in Zion, which is Independence, Missouri. Over one hundred and eighty years later, there is still no Temple on the “temple lot” specified in this prophecy. Early Mormon leaders made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given in 1832.
Can we conclude that since this prophecy can never came true, that Joseph Smith is a false prophet of the type that St. Paul warned us of?
Brothers and sisters think about this how is it this man has not been excommunicated yet
What year did they change the principal ancestors to" among the ancestors"? I wonder if that was before I left... Either way both are lies. Its not correct to say among because its all false ( BOM).
2007.
@@Themanyfacesofego Thank you.
I had not updated my scriptures then so I didn't know that before I left. And of course the church and members were quiet about it.
It's still not updated in the German printed edition. Only the online edition and the app have been updated.
Does Royal Skousen believe in automatic writing? Does he have an opinion on its use to write the Book of Mormon? 😮
That's called a death cult
Born.
Everybody wants to get there.
A lie from the beginning, all that follow will go straight to HELL with js.