The greatest circumstantial evidence that John Taylor was behind the assassination and probably did it is that not only did he choose NOT to testify, but he also told the people in the town not to testify. I can’t believe NO ONE emphasized this. I lost all respect for the detective’s Critical thinking skills for not pointing this out. Only a guilty person would not want to testify in an assassination that he witnessed. Only a guilty person would then convinced the rest of the town, not to testify as well. Sometimes the simplest explanations are the right ones. How is this common sense notion so difficult to understand ?
You're misunderstanding the benefits of Det. Steiner being a court recognized expert here. Det Steiner, or the CRE, is not disputing Griffin's evidence or his interpretation of the evidence. He's only offering an additional hypothesis. Huge difference.
I was reading American Crucifixion the other week and it covered a few things I hadn't heard before. Before the armies of militia were sent home from Carthage (it was too expensive to keep all of them there, and thousands of bored, angry militiamen are dangerous to keep around), Joseph and Hyrum had been paraded in front of these armies. The descriptions showed how terrified they were, one of them had almost feinted with fear. As they walked, they were grabbing on to nearby soldiers to stay close to them just to make sure nobody would try to shoot them. The prisoners also knew there were threats that people wanted to drag them out and hang them. When roughly a hundred people show up to the jail, some running up and shooting at them, I'm sure more threats were being shouted at them, in all of that chaos, it's very possible that Hyrum was terrified of being taken, beaten, and hung by this mob. If he didn't see any way out for him, he may have decided to go out on his own terms and use his one-shot pistol on himself, put it under his chin, declared "I'm a dead man," and fired. If I were an assailant with a gun, I would _not_ want to grapple with someone to shoot them. Barrels can be bumped, jostled or anything and fire wrong and then it becomes useless as a weapon. I'd want to keep a distance of several feet to reliably shoot someone. Suicide is not a glorious way to go, so that would also explain why Willard Richards and John Taylor came up with much more noble stories of what happened.
So I been going down this rabbit hole again and the more I study it I think Justin's theory is the most plausible. May not be accurate, but it explains a LOT. In Justin's response to this show he presented enough critical analysis to me that there is no way Hyrum Smith was shot in the face from the door. Sorry RFM love ya, but your theory doesn't cut the mustard! :-) I think the Coroner was correct and that the chin was the entry wound. Couple that with Fredrick Piercy's water color painting and the bullet hole and blood splatter in the ceiling directly over where Hyrum was found dead is evidence to me of an under the chin death shot and that he was standing when it happened. To me this is the most plausible explanation.
@@amazinmaven a bigger truth you could focus on is the fact that we are fast losing our freedoms in this country. Freedom of speech is all but gone, except for the courageous actions of Elon Musk. Lucifer has effectively distracted you from the urgent battles of our present time. Instead you are dissecting details of history that have no relevance to our modern lives or the future of this nation. Start using your powers for good. I know you think discrediting the church's origins is doing people a service but you'll find out soon enough that you were duped again by the master deceiver. His end goal is to stamp out Christianity completely. You are being used as a tool against this particular church. Expand your vision. Use your talents to save lives and preserve freedom. If JS was deceptive and went off the rails he will answer to God for it, have no doubt.
Thomas Barnes, the coroner, wrote of his account. "It appears that one of the balls in the commencement of the attack passed through a panel of the door and hit hyram in his neck which probably broke his neck he fell back and died as I was informed instantly when I went into the room shortly afterwards his head was laying against the wall on the other side of the room from the door
Agree with one caller who mentioned = shooting your face off (often seen with suicides from same muzzle angle) is often NOT a fatal injury. This raised questions for me while watching the documentary as to the when and how hyrum actually died during the incident.
I enjoyed the episode, there was no way we could get into all the details of the murders. We just need to continue seeking evidence and try to determine what happened through the process of elimination.
The first time I watched this Part 2 movie and heard the expert witness' theory, I didn't understand why he would think that Hyrum was shot in the back first when the evidence of Hyrum's shirt does not have any blood on it. If I have recalled correctly, this expert witness over-looked this simple fact that even I, some untrained nobody, noticed the first time I heard his theory and the question is, why? As that doesn't make any sense if he's really such an "expert". Also, RFM, this expert witness says the same words about his theory as he does about Justin's, that they were both "possible". So, okay, as you explained, in the court system what he thinks is "possible" will have more weight than what he thinks Justin's possibility is, yet for a layman like me, he made no distinguishing words making it sound like his theory is more credible, but that they both were "possible". And Justin's theory explains why there's no blood where the shot in the back was, which actually makes sense. For me as an uneducated viewer in evidence finding, viewing, and conclusions, this does, in fact, sound like a "win", especially when you learn that Brigham Young was spotted in a neighboring town when he was supposed to be back east and Brigham threatened the person who saw him that he was to tell no one he was seen there "or else". What did Brigham have to hide that he was in the neighboring town when these murders were going down? Could it be he was conspiring with his fellow apostles? Points to at least think about and ponder. Edit: After a good night's rest and some more time to think about it, I wonder if the lds church caught wind of this and underhandedly paid this expert witness to come up with another theory that would make it an outside job. That would help their case, even if he didn't agree with their official narrative. We already know they will lie and do things underhandedly with money. I just hope this guy has integrity and this didn't happen.
@@marquitaarmstrong399 not in any legitimate sources. Additionally Brigham being out range in this critical time window speaks volumes, Brigham virtually loses his chance to claim the leadership of the Church. Parley Pratt and his brother save the opportunity for Brigham.
Hyrum was holding the door closed with his butt & lower back while leaning away from the door, with his head turned to the side. Bullet enters the neck under the lower jaw & exists out the side of the nose, from the low power 52 caliber 1819 musket.
My theory is Emma was behind it. She basically called Joseph a chicken because he was going to run away to the west. He had done her wrong with the polygamy crap. He was too proud to not come back. By him saying he was like a lamb going to slaughter I believe he knew his own people were probably going to do him in. After all he started the blood atonement. Why would outsiders care that he burned a printing press that exposed him as a polygamist. They were probably more than happy though to get involved to distract him from John Taylor and Willard Richards.. They probably got paid. I think Justin is probably right on. When Joseph was out in the hall and Hyrum said I am a dead man I think he was warning Joseph to not come back into the room. If it wasn't Emma it was Brigham Young and how convenient that he was out of town when it happened.
I think whoever helped plan this intentionally set Emma up as a possible contingent for who to blame it on if the mob theory was ever questioned. When you look at Dan Jones' account of events preceding the martyrdom - Emma calling Joseph back from Iowa doesn't play out the same as other narratives. Then later Brigham tries to frame (or cast doubt on) Emma by stating she tried to poison Joseph previously. If Joseph was poisoned I would guess the same people responsible for poisoning Samuel Smith and Arthur Milliken would be looked at...or maybe even who poisoned Brigham Young... Emma was pregnant at the time and even if she did ask Joseph to come back I don't see that as evidence she conspired to have him killed, it just makes sense she would want her husband back. If she was behind it, then do you think she conspired with Taylor and Richards? If so why not follow them West later?
@@MormonDiscussion I had never thought of John Taylor until I watched Justin's movies thanks to you guys. He definitely has done more research than I'm sure anyone else by using the same guns to see the damage done, checking the angles, looking at the skeletons and clothing. His so called expert has not even been to Carthage and experts are always going to come up with something different to show they know it all and not the other person. After all they are experts. lol I just threw in Emma because I think she would have had a great motive but I don't know if she could have brought John Taylor in unless maybe they had a fling going on. lol He did end up with lots of wives. I had heard there were rumors of Brigham Young and just because he was out of town doesn't mean he didn't plan it. It would be smart for him to be out of town and he definitely was no dummy when it came to getting power. Also Justin mentioned Samuel Smith died shortly after Joseph and he would have been next in line so that seems suspicious to me. But no one will ever know for sure but you can bet your bottom dollar the church has covered up whatever the truth is or they would not have found Justin's movies a threat and excommunicated him. That is their way of handling things. They will never learn that it doesn't work it just adds fuel to the fire. 🤣
I love Bill & RFM and watch all the Mormonism Live episodes. But I was quite disappointed in this one. I thought it would be a thorough examination of the circumstances of the Smiths' " martyrdom", an historical event that should intrigue all of your listeners. Allow me state in one simple sentence an obvious fact that was belabored for the entire first hour- that an expert witness who is a man of character will be led to testify according to the facts and not according to the desires of the person paying him, and that if his conclusion runs contrary to the desired conclusion of his client then it will be damaging to his client's case. The discussion at the end with Mr. Griffin was interesting, but I agree that there is little forensic evidence to support his Willard Richards/ John Taylor theory. My hope is that in a near future episode you will cover the "Fate of the Murderers of Joseph Smith" LDS myth, and really get into the motivations of the mob, if anything is known about who they actually were, and how a revenge fantasy stoked by church leaders would play out in future Mormon history.
The early church leaders were tied to Joseph Smith in a lot of ways. He was possibly problematic for John Taylor, Brigham young and Willard Richard’s and his actions began to compromise their stake in the church.
I gathered that Joseph shooting the young men who first stormed the stairs and two were wounded is evidence that nobody reached the top of the stairs to shoot through the door. Why is this not a major point? What evidence is there for anyone in the mob making it up the stairs to shoot through the door? I remember someone has made the point that Willard or John shot through the door after Joseph was dead.
I'm generally still attached to the theory that the mob was mainly composed of people from the Warsaw Illinois area. They had negative contact with the Mormons, who tried to settle near them originally. Media, (newspaper) had stirred them up as well. There was an additional factor: The Nauvoo militia was delayed. It appeared that this may have been intentional. JS had established an elite cabal and there were many in Nauvoo who were disenchanted with his antics, particularly his grooming of maidens and "marrying" other living men's wives.
I believe Robert F Smith was the meditator between the two. He didn’t prevent John and Willard from having weapons brought to the jail as Captain of Carthage Greys
@@Clark104 interesting. Joseph and Hyrum were given weapons too by Cyrus Wheelock I believe his name was. A derringer and a 6 shooter. Are you saying those were the weapons Taylor and Richards had?
@@danstangents9975 John Taylor said he had his own pistols under his pillow a few days before Carthage Jail. They would have brought their own weapons in. John Taylor, Martyrdom Account pg. 20
I hereby fully apologize for my unkind comments about Canadians. Tho technically it was Canada I traduced. Not Canadians. I claim it is possible to love the Canadians but not the Canada. ❤
When I watched the 2nd movie on who killed JS, the expert Matt was a bit questionable for me. What bothered me is the Matt in his conclusion did not address the shot toward the ceiling. Why? Nor did the expert explain how it got there. In 3 hours of interviewing Matt did this expert say anything about the ceiling shot??? I believe Justin talks about witnesses to this bullet mark in the first film. Is the bullet mark a fallacy? You talk about forensics, are you addressing this mark? I will watch the rest of this show later. You are a lawyer and questions are your business. You ought to question this expert, Matt. You guys seem to forget that Justin's theory is based on the autopsy that was mentioned on Hyrum. If a coroner/ doc looked at Hyrum's body, pointed out entrance and exit wound.. Isn't that forensic evidence?
Justin has said he will be posting the full footage and Matt's full report on his website at some point. It's possible it was addressed in footage that didn't make it in the film
@@amazinmaven thanks for sharing. I believe it would be great to hear a majority of the interview Justin has with Matt. I wonder what puzzles pieces that will fill in?
Griffin's inside-job theory was not supported. Obviously, this had been Griffin's hope. Sure, it's possible. Everything is possible, but the inside-job theory is simply not likely. An outside-job theory is much better in terms of explanatory power. Griffin refuses to adapt his theory, despite the expert testimony. It was an outside job.
The inside job theory is the only one that can explain all of the physical evidence. None of the outside job theories account for all of the evidence. The inside job theory does have far greater explanatory power.
@@justin-griffin Was your expert very good? I thought he was supposed to be extremely qualified. Are you disappointed in his performance? In the video above, we only saw small clips with your expert's analysis. I hope you share more. Are you suggesting that the expert's analysis is poor? Why don't you share your feedback, more or all of your interactions with the expert? You surely told him the elements he failed to consider, right? And the expert was still not persuaded? Why do you think this was? No matter what your expert said, you tightly adhere to your theory. Some may say your approach isn't very unscientific. That's you're chasing confirmation, despite the evidence. Unless, the expert was wildly wrong, using flawed assumptions, etc. RFM was pointing this out: that you were stickin' to your theory, despite the highly acclaimed expert opinion contradicting your views. Maybe you should pay another expert and see if you can get another expert opinion. One that supports your opinion. Good luck, Justin!
A note, Steiner didn't disprove or dispute Griffin's evidence or his interpretation of the evidence or the way he arrived at his conclusions. He only offered an alternative theory to what Griffin came up with. Big difference.
Remember, Det Steiner didn't discount Justin's hypothesis, he just gave an additional hypothesis. That's important. His hypothesis requires someone being down low, sticking his hand and pistol through a door trying to be forced open as well as forced closed. Then aiming upward, taking a blind shot, striking Hyrum in the face, under the chin. However, like a fire requires the triangle of: fuel, heat and ignition, a crime, requires the triangle of: means, motive and opportunity. To solve a crime, you must have all 3. IE: You hate your neighbor and have sworn to kill him. Motive. You even have a gun. Means. But you're a quadriplegic. Thus, no opportunity. there's a lot of motive for and against.
So the miracle given during this event was a force throwing what's his face back thru the window, rather than said force diverting bullets/ saving the prophet?
I WISH I WAS THERE!! At the RFM 'Who Really Killed Joseph Smith Game of Clue!' It will go down in history as the place to have been! I was clearly not in tune with HG👻 or i wouldn't have missed this! Still great tho, 🎱 months later! Game 1: Joseph Smith broke Hyrum's neck while he was using him as a bullet shield, (he was always the family narcissist), with his bare musket handle🔫, in the Carthage Jail over by the window🪟 while falling towards the door.🚪 2nd game: Hyrum killed Joseph Smith, by pointing his gun🔫 over his shoulder while he was being choked, in Carthage Jail🪟 over by the window while falling towards the door.🚪 Extraneous details: Willard and John hid because nobody wants to get between bros fighting. The mob was a lie made up by John. Willard is a rat.🐀
So while there are theories that can't be definitively proven, there are also theories that can be definitively disproven... Just like the lds church's truth claims! I've never understood faith in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I highly recommend this rational theory by taylor Smith. He sat down with Justin Griffin and explained the how the martyrdom happened with scientific and medical evidence. th-cam.com/video/R_b_p6e1itc/w-d-xo.html
Great. I’m sure tbms will use this to dismiss exmos as conspiracy theorists. I can just hear Cardon Ellis and Brad Witbeck making fun of this theory. Although I do think it’s interesting and bares discussion
Lmao at the mockery near the end. Sorry, but much of it was truly deserving of such and hearing you guys riff on their more ridiculous elements, like snapping necks and cashing checks, I was cackling at yer dudes sense of humor
By 2hrs in, it fully hits me, how cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs they are. And Randy’s phony niceness is so Mormon, I would’ve loved to hear some genuine opinions from him and not just faux praise and compliments between legalese blah blah “I’m a big shot big trial guy, did I mention that?” I come away respecting BR and especially RFM all the more
I don't know what all the fuss in about! Willard Richards had a Yaka cane. Its so obvious. Take a long look at his hair. (Guardian of the Galaxy) Now we don't have to wring anyone's nose. What a relief for society.
Also the person that found king Edward had a hunch They are finding evidence of Cleopatras burial on a hunch Strong persistent hunches can lead to evidence and the truth
John Taylor and Willard Richards during the shooting. Gov Ford didn’t let Dan Jones return to the jail and Stephan Markham left and wasn’t allowed back on his trip to get Willard Richards tobacco for claimed stomach ache
It strikes me how apologetic the experts seems towards Justin. Not what one would expect from someone that claims to just want to know the truth and be willing to go where the evidence leads. I think it’s clear the expert knows that’s not true of Justin.
Ok. Justin is gettin just goofy now, geez. Last minute decided to kill Joseph. Wow, just wow. They didn’t have the balls to shoot Joseph. Goofy theory man. I like Justin. And I think he’s talkin out his tailpipe.
RFM you don't know what you're taking about. You're a lawyer.... you ask questions, I get it. You have said forensics, forensics, forensics all night. Do you know anything about ballistics? Your theory is doesn't make sense to me because exit wounds are always bigger then entry wounds. Secondly, what would be the motive of the coroner to lie about the direction the bullet traveled? Third, does the shot on the death mask appear rough around the edges or is it clean?
Actually people die from getting neck popped under trained care So breaking neck not that difficult My step son broke his on trampoline Also a nurse so yall are not correct on that
Have you heard about the human trafficking connection..... a lot of people might have a reason to want him/them dead or at least out of their town, if that theory were true. Very well could be an inside and an outside job.
Billy “real deal” Reel was in bed w John Taylor? I love how Justin agrees w everything anyone says, compliments and then goes off yonder, swerving hither and thither. It’s odd to hear such absolute conviction in declarations based off such LIMITED forensic data. All the forensic data is speculation because there was NO forensic data. Very limited data I should say.
For some time I have been just as concerned about who shot Hyrum. It has occurred to me that Joseph may not have wanted the church to continue on with Hyrum for reasons known only to Joseph, and that Joseph could have possibly delivered the fatal shot to Hyrum.
BS speculation, why even waste your time. You don't know the true story, I don't know the true story, just like everyone else not knowing the true story.
I did go listen to Who Killed Joseph Smith, parts 1 & 2, before listening to this, and I also came up with the broken-neck cause-of-death. But now I can't claim it as the SleepyCalicoTheory. Humph. lol The important thing the expert confirmed was that the shots that hit Hyrum happened IN THE ROOM. That's what he confirmed. What he GUESSED was that someone in the mob shot into the room. (No one on a jury has to accept all of any witness's testimony.) What I gathered from the movie was that the mob supposedly came to the door twice. The young men initially sent up scattered after they were fired upon most unexpectedly, not knowing Joseph and Hyrum had become armed after they had been arrested and held in that bedroom. If this is true, in order to thwart that first attempt to remove them, it seemed to me that the prisoners would already have used up their very limited ammo (Hyrum's one shot and Joseph's three successful shots). If they didn't run away, if there was only ONE effort to remove the prisoners, only then would there have been a two-way gun fight. And if that had happened, the mob would already know they had killed Hyrum in the room. And with Joseph being dead at the well, there would have been no reason for the mob to run up the stairs and enter the room a second time. I postulate the gunfire *attributed* to an attempted first entry was actually Taylor and/or Williams firing on Joseph and Hyrum. I postulate Hyrum was fighting for his life and someone grabbed him and pulled his head back to deliver what turned out to be the throat-to-nose shot. The Newtonian physics that would combine the effort to restrain Hyrum with the power of Hyrum's own efforts to break free, might jointly be enough to break his neck. Without the struggle, the shot would have been clean, up to the brain. So I posted on the movie site that Hyrum might have died of a broken neck, and people are focused on the gun injuries only because that's what they've always been told is what killed him. I wondered if the skeletal remains could be examined, and someone replied that Dr. Barnes had already said Hyrum's neck had been broken. I further postulate that Hyrum lay dead (either Taylor or William commented on his still being "where I left him") and his blood was no longer circulating when the mob really did show up. There is no blood evidence at the site of some of the shots. As to the idea that the family might have washed out some blood stains and not others, any woman can tell you that blood "bleeds" into fabric as it is being hand-scrubbed out, and the blood-stained water wicks up into the surrounding cloth. Now you have to get that part out as well. And that makes more wicking. Etc. All in all, you get a big mess. You either wash all of the cloth or you preserve the cloth as is because it is the blood evidence itself that makes it sadly dear to you. The expert agreed that a partial washing wouldn't have happened. There was either no or very little staining at secondary shots because they were post-mortem. My initial idea about the broken neck happened because I was following along and moving my head while I listened to the movie. When my head was tilted back to create the angle for the shot, I felt horror and thought, Lordy, this is what is going to kill me. It's all guesses, I know, but it's fun to try to figure it out. For myself, I think Justin is right about it being an inside job, because of all of the lies. One of those two men (murderers) didn't talk about it until the other one was dead. And they told people not to testify. All of the usual cover-up crap.
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The greatest circumstantial evidence that John Taylor was behind the assassination and probably did it is that not only did he choose NOT to testify, but he also told the people in the town not to testify. I can’t believe NO ONE emphasized this. I lost all respect for the detective’s Critical thinking skills for not pointing this out.
Only a guilty person would not want to testify in an assassination that he witnessed. Only a guilty person would then convinced the rest of the town, not to testify as well.
Sometimes the simplest explanations are the right ones. How is this common sense notion so difficult to understand ?
I am so glad that Bell pointed out that John Taylor is clearly not an honest person!! Great point!
says who?
Says ME.
@@markkrispin6944 I did not know you knew him...
It just goes to show you that you don't know much. @@michaelparks5669
You're misunderstanding the benefits of Det. Steiner being a court recognized expert here. Det Steiner, or the CRE, is not disputing Griffin's evidence or his interpretation of the evidence. He's only offering an additional hypothesis. Huge difference.
The one fact that makes me lean more towards the idea that this was an inside job, is the death of William within the month.
I was reading American Crucifixion the other week and it covered a few things I hadn't heard before. Before the armies of militia were sent home from Carthage (it was too expensive to keep all of them there, and thousands of bored, angry militiamen are dangerous to keep around), Joseph and Hyrum had been paraded in front of these armies. The descriptions showed how terrified they were, one of them had almost feinted with fear. As they walked, they were grabbing on to nearby soldiers to stay close to them just to make sure nobody would try to shoot them.
The prisoners also knew there were threats that people wanted to drag them out and hang them. When roughly a hundred people show up to the jail, some running up and shooting at them, I'm sure more threats were being shouted at them, in all of that chaos, it's very possible that Hyrum was terrified of being taken, beaten, and hung by this mob. If he didn't see any way out for him, he may have decided to go out on his own terms and use his one-shot pistol on himself, put it under his chin, declared "I'm a dead man," and fired.
If I were an assailant with a gun, I would _not_ want to grapple with someone to shoot them. Barrels can be bumped, jostled or anything and fire wrong and then it becomes useless as a weapon. I'd want to keep a distance of several feet to reliably shoot someone.
Suicide is not a glorious way to go, so that would also explain why Willard Richards and John Taylor came up with much more noble stories of what happened.
So I been going down this rabbit hole again and the more I study it I think Justin's theory is the most plausible. May not be accurate, but it explains a LOT. In Justin's response to this show he presented enough critical analysis to me that there is no way Hyrum Smith was shot in the face from the door. Sorry RFM love ya, but your theory doesn't cut the mustard! :-) I think the Coroner was correct and that the chin was the entry wound. Couple that with Fredrick Piercy's water color painting and the bullet hole and blood splatter in the ceiling directly over where Hyrum was found dead is evidence to me of an under the chin death shot and that he was standing when it happened. To me this is the most plausible explanation.
You mean Hyrum Smith?
@@Spirit_to_seek Corrected.
My Patriarchal Blessing said I would put truth above every manmade obstacle and distraction. Inspired.
Mine said I would have courage to speak the truth to overwhelming opposition. It only came true after I left Mormonism though. Gives me a chuckle now.
@@amazinmaven inspired indeed!
@@amazinmaven a bigger truth you could focus on is the fact that we are fast losing our freedoms in this country. Freedom of speech is all but gone, except for the courageous actions of Elon Musk. Lucifer has effectively distracted you from the urgent battles of our present time.
Instead you are dissecting details of history that have no relevance to our modern lives or the future of this nation. Start using your powers for good.
I know you think discrediting the church's origins is doing people a service but you'll find out soon enough that you were duped again by the master deceiver. His end goal is to stamp out Christianity completely. You are being used as a tool against this particular church.
Expand your vision. Use your talents to save lives and preserve freedom.
If JS was deceptive and went off the rails he will answer to God for it, have no doubt.
Thomas Barnes, the coroner, wrote of his account. "It appears that one of the balls in the commencement
of the attack passed through a panel of the door and hit hyram in his neck which probably broke his neck
he fell back and died as I was informed instantly when I went into the room shortly afterwards his head
was laying against the wall on the other side of the room from the door
Agree with one caller who mentioned = shooting your face off (often seen with suicides from same muzzle angle) is often NOT a fatal injury. This raised questions for me while watching the documentary as to the when and how hyrum actually died during the incident.
Interesting as always and so much fun! Cheers from Germany!
Shout-out from NRW! 👋
Why weren’t Taylor and Richards ever locked up after it happened? They were both being held prisoner too.
I enjoyed the episode, there was no way we could get into all the details of the murders. We just need to continue seeking evidence and try to determine what happened through the process of elimination.
The first time I watched this Part 2 movie and heard the expert witness' theory, I didn't understand why he would think that Hyrum was shot in the back first when the evidence of Hyrum's shirt does not have any blood on it. If I have recalled correctly, this expert witness over-looked this simple fact that even I, some untrained nobody, noticed the first time I heard his theory and the question is, why? As that doesn't make any sense if he's really such an "expert".
Also, RFM, this expert witness says the same words about his theory as he does about Justin's, that they were both "possible". So, okay, as you explained, in the court system what he thinks is "possible" will have more weight than what he thinks Justin's possibility is, yet for a layman like me, he made no distinguishing words making it sound like his theory is more credible, but that they both were "possible". And Justin's theory explains why there's no blood where the shot in the back was, which actually makes sense.
For me as an uneducated viewer in evidence finding, viewing, and conclusions, this does, in fact, sound like a "win", especially when you learn that Brigham Young was spotted in a neighboring town when he was supposed to be back east and Brigham threatened the person who saw him that he was to tell no one he was seen there "or else".
What did Brigham have to hide that he was in the neighboring town when these murders were going down? Could it be he was conspiring with his fellow apostles? Points to at least think about and ponder.
Edit: After a good night's rest and some more time to think about it, I wonder if the lds church caught wind of this and underhandedly paid this expert witness to come up with another theory that would make it an outside job. That would help their case, even if he didn't agree with their official narrative. We already know they will lie and do things underhandedly with money. I just hope this guy has integrity and this didn't happen.
Wait Brigham Young in nearby town? Where can I get for find That
@@marquitaarmstrong399 not in any legitimate sources. Additionally Brigham being out range in this critical time window speaks volumes, Brigham virtually loses his chance to claim the leadership of the Church. Parley Pratt and his brother save the opportunity for Brigham.
Hyrum was holding the door closed with his butt & lower back while leaning away from the door, with his head turned to the side. Bullet enters the neck under the lower jaw & exists out the side of the nose, from the low power 52 caliber 1819 musket.
My theory is Emma was behind it. She basically called Joseph a chicken because he was going to run away to the west. He had done her wrong with the polygamy crap. He was too proud to not come back. By him saying he was like a lamb going to slaughter I believe he knew his own people were probably going to do him in. After all he started the blood atonement. Why would outsiders care that he burned a printing press that exposed him as a polygamist. They were probably more than happy though to get involved to distract him from John Taylor and Willard Richards.. They probably got paid. I think Justin is probably right on. When Joseph was out in the hall and Hyrum said I am a dead man I think he was warning Joseph to not come back into the room. If it wasn't Emma it was Brigham Young and how convenient that he was out of town when it happened.
Polygamy isn't crap.
I think whoever helped plan this intentionally set Emma up as a possible contingent for who to blame it on if the mob theory was ever questioned. When you look at Dan Jones' account of events preceding the martyrdom - Emma calling Joseph back from Iowa doesn't play out the same as other narratives. Then later Brigham tries to frame (or cast doubt on) Emma by stating she tried to poison Joseph previously. If Joseph was poisoned I would guess the same people responsible for poisoning Samuel Smith and Arthur Milliken would be looked at...or maybe even who poisoned Brigham Young...
Emma was pregnant at the time and even if she did ask Joseph to come back I don't see that as evidence she conspired to have him killed, it just makes sense she would want her husband back. If she was behind it, then do you think she conspired with Taylor and Richards? If so why not follow them West later?
Great theory. What is the evidence which makes this the theory with the "most explanatory value"?
Okay remember Brigham was out of town. Find your theory fascinating
But sweet Emma?? Gosh
@@MormonDiscussion I had never thought of John Taylor until I watched Justin's movies thanks to you guys. He definitely has done more research than I'm sure anyone else by using the same guns to see the damage done, checking the angles, looking at the skeletons and clothing. His so called expert has not even been to Carthage and experts are always going to come up with something different to show they know it all and not the other person. After all they are experts. lol I just threw in Emma because I think she would have had a great motive but I don't know if she could have brought John Taylor in unless maybe they had a fling going on. lol He did end up with lots of wives. I had heard there were rumors of Brigham Young and just because he was out of town doesn't mean he didn't plan it. It would be smart for him to be out of town and he definitely was no dummy when it came to getting power. Also Justin mentioned Samuel Smith died shortly after Joseph and he would have been next in line so that seems suspicious to me. But no one will ever know for sure but you can bet your bottom dollar the church has covered up whatever the truth is or they would not have found Justin's movies a threat and excommunicated him.
That is their way of handling things. They will never learn that it doesn't work it just adds fuel to the fire. 🤣
I love Bill & RFM and watch all the Mormonism Live episodes. But I was quite disappointed in this one. I thought it would be a thorough examination of the circumstances of the Smiths' " martyrdom", an historical event that should intrigue all of your listeners.
Allow me state in one simple sentence an obvious fact that was belabored for the entire first hour- that an expert witness who is a man of character will be led to testify according to the facts and not according to the desires of the person paying him, and that if his conclusion runs contrary to the desired conclusion of his client then it will be damaging to his client's case.
The discussion at the end with Mr. Griffin was interesting, but I agree that there is little forensic evidence to support his Willard Richards/ John Taylor theory.
My hope is that in a near future episode you will cover the "Fate of the Murderers of Joseph Smith" LDS myth, and really get into the motivations of the mob, if anything is known about who they actually were, and how a revenge fantasy stoked by church leaders would play out in future Mormon history.
Good one but I'm still stymied. Oh well.
I filmed an episode with @MormonBookReviews about this. The audio needs a lot of editing but hopefully will be released next week.
@@amazinmaven Thank you Maven. I'll be watching for it.
We need the whole 3 hour interview
Great episode- I'm so glad you covered this topic!
Fascinating and very entertaining show; love hearing you guys laugh!
The early church leaders were tied to Joseph Smith in a lot of ways. He was possibly problematic for John Taylor, Brigham young and Willard Richard’s and his actions began to compromise their stake in the church.
The coroner’s jury report mentions two additional wounds, right side of the chest & base of neck near the right shoulder.
Someone going to have to do a write up and see if the Magic Bullet that killed Kennedy had any relation to the Mormon Magic Bullet that got Hyrum.
Hey I admit it. I'm confused but old brain is churning.....
I was waitin for rfm to say that.ha
I gathered that Joseph shooting the young men who first stormed the stairs and two were wounded is evidence that nobody reached the top of the stairs to shoot through the door. Why is this not a major point?
What evidence is there for anyone in the mob making it up the stairs to shoot through the door? I remember someone has made the point that Willard or John shot through the door after Joseph was dead.
I'm generally still attached to the theory that the mob was mainly composed of people from the Warsaw Illinois area. They had negative contact with the Mormons, who tried to settle near them originally. Media, (newspaper) had stirred them up as well. There was an additional factor: The Nauvoo militia was delayed. It appeared that this may have been intentional. JS had established an elite cabal and there were many in Nauvoo who were disenchanted with his antics, particularly his grooming of maidens and "marrying" other living men's wives.
I’ve always wondered if JT and WR had an agreement with the people in the mob. There’s probably a reason who they both didn’t get killed.
I believe Robert F Smith was the meditator between the two. He didn’t prevent John and Willard from having weapons brought to the jail as Captain of Carthage Greys
@@Clark104 interesting. Joseph and Hyrum were given weapons too by Cyrus Wheelock I believe his name was. A derringer and a 6 shooter. Are you saying those were the weapons Taylor and Richards had?
@@danstangents9975 John Taylor said he had his own pistols under his pillow a few days before Carthage Jail. They would have brought their own weapons in. John Taylor, Martyrdom Account pg. 20
@@Clark104 interesting! Thanks for information on that.
As a Canadian listener I hope RFM will do the right thing and apologize for his unkind comments about Canadians. We, your listeners, deserve better!
I hereby fully apologize for my unkind comments about Canadians. Tho technically it was Canada I traduced. Not Canadians. I claim it is possible to love the Canadians but not the Canada. ❤
Hilarious and witty as ever🇨🇦
Excellent job questioning him.
They forgot to mention Bigfoot came in and snapped the neck
I had a horrible dream that I was praising a ancient Egyptian God. In the Mormon church. Is anything link with Egyptian tides in the Book of Mormon?
Wow! Fascinating. Thanks
When I watched the 2nd movie on who killed JS, the expert Matt was a bit questionable for me. What bothered me is the Matt in his conclusion did not address the shot toward the ceiling. Why? Nor did the expert explain how it got there. In 3 hours of interviewing Matt did this expert say anything about the ceiling shot??? I believe Justin talks about witnesses to this bullet mark in the first film. Is the bullet mark a fallacy? You talk about forensics, are you addressing this mark? I will watch the rest of this show later. You are a lawyer and questions are your business. You ought to question this expert, Matt. You guys seem to forget that Justin's theory is based on the autopsy that was mentioned on Hyrum. If a coroner/ doc looked at Hyrum's body, pointed out entrance and exit wound.. Isn't that forensic evidence?
Justin has said he will be posting the full footage and Matt's full report on his website at some point. It's possible it was addressed in footage that didn't make it in the film
@@amazinmaven thanks for sharing. I believe it would be great to hear a majority of the interview Justin has with Matt. I wonder what puzzles pieces that will fill in?
I like Dr Bell!
Everytime I see Randall Bell I'm going of whom does he remind me? Puzzler.... Maybe a past bishop????? Hmmm
Griffin's inside-job theory was not supported. Obviously, this had been Griffin's hope. Sure, it's possible. Everything is possible, but the inside-job theory is simply not likely. An outside-job theory is much better in terms of explanatory power.
Griffin refuses to adapt his theory, despite the expert testimony. It was an outside job.
The expert was only comparing the theories out there. The expert wasn’t working with all the information available.
The inside job theory is the only one that can explain all of the physical evidence. None of the outside job theories account for all of the evidence. The inside job theory does have far greater explanatory power.
@@justin-griffin
Was your expert very good? I thought he was supposed to be extremely qualified. Are you disappointed in his performance?
In the video above, we only saw small clips with your expert's analysis. I hope you share more.
Are you suggesting that the expert's analysis is poor? Why don't you share your feedback, more or all of your interactions with the expert? You surely told him the elements he failed to consider, right? And the expert was still not persuaded? Why do you think this was?
No matter what your expert said, you tightly adhere to your theory. Some may say your approach isn't very unscientific. That's you're chasing confirmation, despite the evidence. Unless, the expert was wildly wrong, using flawed assumptions, etc. RFM was pointing this out: that you were stickin' to your theory, despite the highly acclaimed expert opinion contradicting your views.
Maybe you should pay another expert and see if you can get another expert opinion. One that supports your opinion.
Good luck, Justin!
A note, Steiner didn't disprove or dispute Griffin's evidence or his interpretation of the evidence or the way he arrived at his conclusions. He only offered an alternative theory to what Griffin came up with. Big difference.
@@nealljones you're misinterpreting what Det Steiner said. He didn't disprove Griffin's account, he only added an additional theory.
This just in: Your intro reference to loud laughter is apparently passe. I'm guffawing as you speak.
Remember, Det Steiner didn't discount Justin's hypothesis, he just gave an additional hypothesis. That's important. His hypothesis requires someone being down low, sticking his hand and pistol through a door trying to be forced open as well as forced closed. Then aiming upward, taking a blind shot, striking Hyrum in the face, under the chin.
However, like a fire requires the triangle of: fuel, heat and ignition, a crime, requires the triangle of: means, motive and opportunity. To solve a crime, you must have all 3. IE: You hate your neighbor and have sworn to kill him. Motive. You even have a gun. Means. But you're a quadriplegic. Thus, no opportunity. there's a lot of motive for and against.
So the miracle given during this event was a force throwing what's his face back thru the window, rather than said force diverting bullets/ saving the prophet?
No eyewitness personally saw John Taylor at the window. That part of the story is made up.
Adroitly put, sedg83! 😂
Bullets do not move straight through flesh and bone
I WISH I WAS THERE!! At the RFM 'Who Really Killed Joseph Smith Game of Clue!'
It will go down in history as the place to have been!
I was clearly not in tune with HG👻 or i wouldn't have missed this!
Still great tho, 🎱 months later!
Game 1:
Joseph Smith broke Hyrum's neck while he was using him as a bullet shield, (he was always the family narcissist), with his bare musket handle🔫, in the Carthage Jail over by the window🪟 while falling towards the door.🚪
2nd game:
Hyrum killed Joseph Smith, by pointing his gun🔫 over his shoulder while he was being choked, in Carthage Jail🪟 over by the window while falling towards the door.🚪
Extraneous details:
Willard and John hid because nobody wants to get between bros fighting.
The mob was a lie made up by John.
Willard is a rat.🐀
So while there are theories that can't be definitively proven, there are also theories that can be definitively disproven... Just like the lds church's truth claims!
I've never understood faith in the face of evidence to the contrary.
The dollar hounds right up front, nice look.
Interesting speculation after watching. But I don't see that it meets a historical standard to be probable..
How can i watch it in Australia
There was no blood on Hyrums shirt in his lower back area. Doesn't that mean post mortem?
Yes
Brigham Young was the "Judas" to Joseph and Hyrum.
Was there any bullets found in the body?
I'm listening to him but now more confused than ever. However have always loved a mystery. Okay
I highly recommend this rational theory by taylor Smith. He sat down with Justin Griffin and explained the how the martyrdom happened with scientific and medical evidence. th-cam.com/video/R_b_p6e1itc/w-d-xo.html
Great. I’m sure tbms will use this to dismiss exmos as conspiracy theorists. I can just hear Cardon Ellis and Brad Witbeck making fun of this theory.
Although I do think it’s interesting and bares discussion
I guess 8 minutes and 54 seconds before we get to the meat of the show. Edit, I was wrong… Finally they got to it faster today!
And one was one with the watch....oh boy
Lmao at the mockery near the end. Sorry, but much of it was truly deserving of such and hearing you guys riff on their more ridiculous elements, like snapping necks and cashing checks, I was cackling at yer dudes sense of humor
A murderer was murdered very good but he continues to kill people by suicide
By 2hrs in, it fully hits me, how cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs they are. And Randy’s phony niceness is so Mormon, I would’ve loved to hear some genuine opinions from him and not just faux praise and compliments between legalese blah blah “I’m a big shot big trial guy, did I mention that?” I come away respecting BR and especially RFM all the more
REALLY don’t like the spoiler alert and RFM’s opinion before the show begins. 😢
It was refreshing to see you treat someone you disagree with kindly and courteously. Abnormal for this program.
I don't know what all the fuss in about! Willard Richards had a Yaka cane. Its so obvious. Take a long look at his hair. (Guardian of the Galaxy) Now we don't have to wring anyone's nose. What a relief for society.
Also the person that found king Edward had a hunch
They are finding evidence of Cleopatras burial on a hunch
Strong persistent hunches can lead to evidence and the truth
How's the "return of Joseph Smith" coming :P
Don't get a bad feeling or anything just keep going who does he bring to mind?
Which one was the one who was under the bed? Or do I have these guys entirely wrong? Help out somebody. Thanks in advance,...
John Taylor went under the bed after being shot
John Taylor
Rumors of Mason hit & they were masons. Wilford Woodruff also had a six-shot Allen & Thurber pepperbox pistol.
We'll never really know. All I know is that a lot of idiots wanted to kill someone they hated. Speculation is a fun sport though.
Weren't they all Joseph's loyal buddies at Carthage? I will be up all night shuffling through pages.......sigh
John Taylor and Willard Richards during the shooting. Gov Ford didn’t let Dan Jones return to the jail and Stephan Markham left and wasn’t allowed back on his trip to get Willard Richards tobacco for claimed stomach ache
Why did you guys only talk about how Hyrum was killed?
So was Joseph Smith shot in the back? I'm confused 😕😕😕😕
Hyrum was shot in the back. Joseph might’ve been as well. But in the podcast video stream it was Hyrum that we were talking about.
It strikes me how apologetic the experts seems towards Justin. Not what one would expect from someone that claims to just want to know the truth and be willing to go where the evidence leads.
I think it’s clear the expert knows that’s not true of Justin.
Sorry, this would have been far better without R Bell.
Ok. Justin is gettin just goofy now, geez. Last minute decided to kill Joseph. Wow, just wow. They didn’t have the balls to shoot Joseph. Goofy theory man. I like Justin. And I think he’s talkin out his tailpipe.
Taylor could have stomped Hyrum's neck to make certain.
RFM you don't know what you're taking about. You're a lawyer.... you ask questions, I get it. You have said forensics, forensics, forensics all night. Do you know anything about ballistics? Your theory is doesn't make sense to me because exit wounds are always bigger then entry wounds. Secondly, what would be the motive of the coroner to lie about the direction the bullet traveled? Third, does the shot on the death mask appear rough around the edges or is it clean?
The whole point of the show was to look at it from a lawyer's point of view regarding the use of expert witnesses.
@@amazinmaven I appreciate the reply. That is reasonable he is a lawyer after all.. I suppose it was a cross examination of sorts..
RFM says "Myself"
Actually people die from getting neck popped under trained care
So breaking neck not that difficult
My step son broke his on trampoline
Also a nurse so yall are not correct on that
Real estate damage “expert witness” for civil litigation. Mmmmay, carry on
Have you heard about the human trafficking connection..... a lot of people might have a reason to want him/them dead or at least out of their town, if that theory were true. Very well could be an inside and an outside job.
There's no validity to human trafficking.... A lot of speculation and conjecture just like always.
Billy “real deal” Reel was in bed w John Taylor? I love how Justin agrees w everything anyone says, compliments and then goes off yonder, swerving hither and thither. It’s odd to hear such absolute conviction in declarations based off such LIMITED forensic data. All the forensic data is speculation because there was NO forensic data. Very limited data I should say.
Joseph shot Hyrum
you need to download the videos and use those to remove the stutter. I'm keeping to tell you but no one listens 🙄
..... huh?
For some time I have been just as concerned about who shot Hyrum. It has occurred to me that Joseph may not have wanted the church to continue on with Hyrum for reasons known only to Joseph, and that Joseph could have possibly delivered the fatal shot to Hyrum.
Well didn't the mob shoot Hyrum again just to make sure he was dead????
Someone shot Hyrum with a pistol in the back, and both legs after he was dead. There isn't any blood or exit wounds for those 3.
BS speculation, why even waste your time. You don't know the true story, I don't know the true story, just like everyone else not knowing the true story.
your going to hoy ghost me ? nice . by friends
Ahhh. I just gotta say, I would trust you more if your name bore the name of Christ.
Stop that horrible intro.
RFM sites MobyDick and wears Ghost Rider tee; I subscribed.
(Make mine Marvel!)
I did go listen to Who Killed Joseph Smith, parts 1 & 2, before listening to this, and I also came up with the broken-neck cause-of-death. But now I can't claim it as the SleepyCalicoTheory. Humph. lol The important thing the expert confirmed was that the shots that hit Hyrum happened IN THE ROOM. That's what he confirmed. What he GUESSED was that someone in the mob shot into the room. (No one on a jury has to accept all of any witness's testimony.)
What I gathered from the movie was that the mob supposedly came to the door twice. The young men initially sent up scattered after they were fired upon most unexpectedly, not knowing Joseph and Hyrum had become armed after they had been arrested and held in that bedroom. If this is true, in order to thwart that first attempt to remove them, it seemed to me that the prisoners would already have used up their very limited ammo (Hyrum's one shot and Joseph's three successful shots).
If they didn't run away, if there was only ONE effort to remove the prisoners, only then would there have been a two-way gun fight. And if that had happened, the mob would already know they had killed Hyrum in the room. And with Joseph being dead at the well, there would have been no reason for the mob to run up the stairs and enter the room a second time.
I postulate the gunfire *attributed* to an attempted first entry was actually Taylor and/or Williams firing on Joseph and Hyrum. I postulate Hyrum was fighting for his life and someone grabbed him and pulled his head back to deliver what turned out to be the throat-to-nose shot. The Newtonian physics that would combine the effort to restrain Hyrum with the power of Hyrum's own efforts to break free, might jointly be enough to break his neck. Without the struggle, the shot would have been clean, up to the brain.
So I posted on the movie site that Hyrum might have died of a broken neck, and people are focused on the gun injuries only because that's what they've always been told is what killed him. I wondered if the skeletal remains could be examined, and someone replied that Dr. Barnes had already said Hyrum's neck had been broken.
I further postulate that Hyrum lay dead (either Taylor or William commented on his still being "where I left him") and his blood was no longer circulating when the mob really did show up. There is no blood evidence at the site of some of the shots.
As to the idea that the family might have washed out some blood stains and not others, any woman can tell you that blood "bleeds" into fabric as it is being hand-scrubbed out, and the blood-stained water wicks up into the surrounding cloth. Now you have to get that part out as well. And that makes more wicking. Etc. All in all, you get a big mess. You either wash all of the cloth or you preserve the cloth as is because it is the blood evidence itself that makes it sadly dear to you. The expert agreed that a partial washing wouldn't have happened.
There was either no or very little staining at secondary shots because they were post-mortem.
My initial idea about the broken neck happened because I was following along and moving my head while I listened to the movie. When my head was tilted back to create the angle for the shot, I felt horror and thought, Lordy, this is what is going to kill me.
It's all guesses, I know, but it's fun to try to figure it out. For myself, I think Justin is right about it being an inside job, because of all of the lies. One of those two men (murderers) didn't talk about it until the other one was dead. And they told people not to testify. All of the usual cover-up crap.