But the series was good because it was never about the individual characters the interplay between contrasting personality was what helped the characters stand out,
I think DS9 stands out because there are so many great characters. Personally I only liked Picard and Data in TNG, but DS9 had Sisko, Jake, Quake, Nog, Rom, Kira, Odo, Worf (more interesting in DS9 than TNG), Ducat and Garrack. Even characters less interesting like Dax, Bashir, O’Brian and Wyoum are better than the others in TNG, and I liked TNG more than DS9. Garrack is great, but it helps that he was played by a great actor, you always got the sense that behind Garrack charm, was a psychopath.
Absolutely nothing was won; a billion people died, just because the Founders were paranoid about the possibility of aggression from the people on the other side of the wormhole. The Founders themselves lost nothing and were never punished; so it's only the Federation and its allies that suffered, for absolutely no reason....
When all is left but ashes and bones, when the buildings burn, when the guns no longer fire, all that was and was not, all that triumphs and whose whispers blow upon the winds of eternity carry only sorrow. For this is the fate of the victor and the vanquished, this is the winds of war. Let no eye look upon its darkness, for there is only tears. For the abyss looks back not in pity, but in anger.
The worst part is is that it was only the Dominion's FOOTHOLD in the Alpha Quadrant that was defeated. The Dominion itself is practically intact in the Gamma Quadrant, and could invade again. It's up to Odo to convince them otherwise.
This is true. And quite scary. The occupied worlds in the Alpha quadrant provided major ship building and clone production yet they were only a sliver of what the Dominion could have produced in their own native turf built up over thousands of years, and potentially hundreds or even thousands of allied worlds providing resources. After what was seen here, the Federation alliance was just a joke compared to what the Dominion could fight against. The Borg is honestly a much more worthy opponent for the Dominion. So much so, that the Dominion if ever invaded with thousands of cubes, wouldn't even ask the Alpha quadrant for help since they could offer nothing.
@@oldtwinsna8347, that's right and maybe you have noticed, that the Prophets didn't wiped the Fleet out. They moved them through time and so after a long time in Star Trek: Online the "Second Wave" of the Dominion starts the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant. And even after ~50 years with improved technology the Federation has no chance...
They Founders also know that Section 31 can pretty much infect them with a deadly virus whenever they want if they do not keep their peace agreement....
@@doofkos Now, wait a second. The USS Majestic-B kicked dominion arse on that second wave. And the Starfleet's bajoran task force retake DS9 without help. Also, two years later, after the iconan war (talking about brutal wars) one of the founders little experiments goes rampage against them and anhilates almost 60% of dominion space, out siege on founders planet and the Jem'Hadar were actually useless against them. If not for the help of the Starfleet/Klingon/Romulan triple alliance they would have been done for.
What happened to cardassia, and Garak's lament, has clear parallels to the defeat of Germany and Japan in 1945. Great writing without being heavy handed.
Honestly thr whole pah wraith thing made this the worst finale of trek. Even enterprise at least that show sucked and ended on a whimper. DS9 was fantastic and ended in such a lame way. Such a waste.
i think the problem is too many potential views consider trek to be goofy. the better the ratings, the more money from sponsors and the more quality can be added.
@@thejamesasher I was too little in the 90s to know, was that the consensus in the 90s? Because I’ve seen a lot of series from the same period and they’re just as goofy if not more.
If you haven’t read it I highly recommend you read “a stitch in time” by Andrew Robinson. It tells of Garak’s past and his return to cardassia. It’s brilliant.
@@joestitz239 I'm listening to the audiobook for free on spotify. It's a well written book. Written and narrated by Andrew Robinson, the actor who portrayed Garak. I highly recommend it.
A billion people dead (almost all on one side!), and all that stands in the way of another war is a piece of paper. This was no victory for the Alpha Quadrant, merely the cheapest defeat.
Close to 1.5 billion cardassians died. There were prob millions of jem'hadar dead, tens of thousands of breen dead, tens of millions of starfleet officers dead, tens of millions of klingons dead, millions of federation citizens dead (invasion of Betazed for example), Tens if not hundreds of thousands of romulans and remans dead. As a result the Federation(barely) and the Romulans(bc they joined late) were the only superpowers left. After Hobus, just the Federation, after the Synth attack, the Federation was barely a superpower.
Imagine, when Bashir says sorry, he actually said "I'm sorry, Elim." Using his real name for the first time, then puts a hand on his shoulder. And have Garak then say the line about them having dinner some time, returning the shoulder pat, calling the doctor Julian.
@@brucenadeau1280 the wealthy have been controlling the many for centuries. instead of aristocrats and nobles, now we have billionaires, and people supporting them like they are superior to the common folk in just the same way.
@@danilocandidojr735 My point is that neither of the two factions would approve of being called the "federation alliance" as if they're less important than the Federation.
"...we have known the bitterness of defeat and exultation of triumph. And from both we have learned that there can be no turning back. We must go forward to preserve in peace for what we've won in war."
@@johnstitt2615 Of course not, since they didn't lose anything. They genocided Cardassia and ravaged the Federation, losing only some slaves and ships they can easily replace, and then at the end they just walk freely back home lmao. This peace deal is great for the Dominion
@@ChrisStavros From a superficial standpoint this is true. But on another level they lost far more than it appears; they were exposed to the whole galaxy for what they were, they lost their image of invincibility, and their weaknesses and vulnerabilities were laid bare for all - likely including enemies in their own quadrant who may now seize upon this opportunity to rise against them. They are now pariahs with no allies. The Alpha Quadrant is fully united against them and should they step out of line they would be hopelessly outnumbered. When great empires are defeated in such a manner and their mystique broken, they become vulnerable to attacks from all sides. And as they showed themselves to be genocidal maniacs they will never be trusted and will be treated as villains by all. They are now Rome on the decline and should they persist in their ways their fall is inevitable.
honestly the most satisfying part of this, besides garak's wonderful performance, is when that horrible lady goes up in flames at 3:22. Dukat actually did something good with his powers!
She got some redemption at the end. I like to think there is some good in everyone. Religion in Trek was a bit weird and i still don't really like this plot arc in DS9.
The funny thing is that she COULD have saved the day here, if she'd shut her damn mouth and just tossed the book in the fire while Dukat was busy with Sisko. But, as always, she needed to be the center of attention.
A power hungry traitor, who got no less than she deserved. Betraying the Prophets and Bajor by siding with the Pah'Wraiths. She was frustrated at why the Prophets would never speak to her, and I believe its because they could see her for what she really was. And was never worthy of their attention.
The scene with the actual signing of the surrender documents reminds me of the surrender proceedings on the USS Missouri....I like how Gen. MacArthur was quoted....I wish he also quoted the general's other quote when the ceremony was completed - a simple "these proceedings are now completed"....
It would have worked but the open ending worked better. It implies that the story continues on after the show is over. That the rebuilding is up to the characters we may not ever see again, only to hear about in books. The quote of "These proceedings are closed." would have instead hammered home a bitter nail of finality. Pretty sure the show runners wanted the show to end but to leave an air of future possibility and hope to the audience.
Odo runs the Dominion now. Life goes on. And more adventures to come, perhaps there will one day be a Star Trek Dominion a whole new Quadrant to have adventures in. Of course the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans will expand and there are vast regions in the Gamma Quadrant and Alpha Quadrant not yet explored. Also it is possible that many planets in the Dominion will kick off Dominion rule. There is a huge number of systems that the wormhole does not touch.
@@Mjp11111The homeworld of a galactic superpower would have planetary defenses. Garak should have been aware of that, but was blinded by anger. Worf knew, and correctly calculated, that even one Founder would have been able to rule an entire armada of Jem'Hadar ships bent on revenge. Besides, being fired at from a Federation/Starfleet vessel would have been interpreted as a clear act of war.
Such a wonderful moment with The Dominion's submission of the articles of surrender, silently taking heed to awesome might and strategic prowess of the Federation alliance. had the Founders had true intimate knowledge of the Federation, their could have been a quantum leap forward for the entire galaxy. World building on a scale unmatched, and giving way to a collaboration that would eventually be victorious in eliminatin the Borg. Shortsighted on their part.
The Dominion's might would mean nothing to the Borg, yeah they'd probably do well in the first few battles, but after the Borg adapted to their weapons they'd be just as helpless as everyone else.
The founders lost because the prophet's destroyed the dominion fleet that was supposed to pass into the alpha quadrant, without that happening the federation would've lost
The only reason the federation won was space magic, literally. The destruction of the dominion reinforcemeants in the wormhole gave the federation a chance. Without it they would have lost without question. And the dominion is still fine, they jsut lost their foothold in the alpha quadrant. They still have 1/4 of the galaxy basically for themselfs fully inbtact, meanwhile the alpha and beta quadrants are in ruins. From a Dominion POV they actually more or less won because their goal was always a) bring Odo back and b) end the threat of solids Nobody in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant is going to be strong enough to threaten the dominion for decades.
Well, you can see from this that the Female Changling literally did not give a crap about the lives lost. And she didn't seem to have any regrets or remorse. Sometimes, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Odo just let the founders die.
400 years ago a victories general spoke the following words today the guns are silent we have learned victory and the bitterness of defeat from both we have learned there can be no going back we must preserve the peace which we have won in war
The parting between Garak and Bashir... I wish it was different. Bashir should have offered to stay, or asked Garak to come with him to Earth. Even if they couldn't have the relationship the two actors envisioned, it was still a deep friendship that should have continued.
@@hobomike6935Agreed, besides his home world needed a leader and he was the closest thing they still had. We caught glimpses of how he would like to have seen his homeworld. He knew it would never be because of the current political system. Now hopefully he can implement some of those changes while rebuilding the best of the old system.
Because it's always the same. When you fire the first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill... before everybody does what they were ALWAYS going to have to do from the very beginning! SIT. DOWN. AND. TALK. The Doctor
I always wondered what the founder signed on the declaration of surrender. Founder? Female changeling? Why would she even need a signature? Why would anyone need a signature??
It should have been signed on the quarterdeck of USS Missouri... still riding at anchor at Pearl Harbor on earth... I think she would still impress even the Klingons...
The entities operating the worm-hole, along with their new friend 'The Cisco' will ensure lasting peace by regulating what is allowed to pass through the worm-hole. The Dominion reinforcements were not allowed passage and ceased to exist, for example. With this kind of 'filter' in place, Gamma poses no threat of invasion.
I am not altogether sure what the complaints about the peace treaty amount to; there was neither the will, means, or reason to attack the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant. The objectives of the war were to protect the independence of these powers from Dominion rule. Those objectives were met. There is no longer a reason to continue the war. As for justice, that’s something to strive for but usually unattainable at this scale. I’ll say this, that trial of the founder is one of THE great untold stories to come out of this.
@@hobomike6935 sisco actually developed his crew unlike picard , picard was abducted and dam near destroyed the federation , sisco single handedly saved the federation
The greatest war the galaxy had seen in centuries. Nothing compares to this in science fiction practically as what was done here so masterfully. I wish we would have seen more of Cardassia's destruction, But everything else turned out very very well.
Man, I can't help but feel that the Wraiths thing *should* have been her role instead of his. It would've properly concluded the ongoing rivalry between the Kai and the Emissary
It's interesting that when Star Trek: Deep Space Nine plays on Pluto TV and comes to THIS episode, the scene with Garak and Dr. Bashir having the conversation about the 800 million Cardassians dying is edited out! I wonder why Paramount decided to cut that scene out? Ususally, every program on Pluto TV is showed unedited, but not THIS particular episode of DS9.
That treaty is meaningless. The rest of the Dominion is still very much a threat to the Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers. Only Odo and the Federation can convince the Dominion that it doesn't need to be so aggressive...
Its interesting looking at garaks commentary from cardassian morality 1) the guilty must be punished 2)justice is inevitable. The cardassian people choose, aggression, greed, hypocrisy and cowardice ergo the horrors inflicted on them are 'just'. Garak knows every horror inflicted on them was their own fault by their own standards and its killing him.
I would like to know what happened with cardassia after the fight I would like to know what happened with the Breen were they ever punished or whatever happened to them what happened with the Dominion what about the Klingon Empire and all of its losses
Breen probably ended up paying compensations for the entire war since Cardassia itself was broke (and also joined the winning side toward the end) and the Dominion left to another quadrant. the Breen were stuck paying the bill
Like I said before. Why didn't Adami quietly throw the book into the flames. Sisko and Ducat were distracted enough. I suppose she wanted to die since she couldn't return as Kai.
What makes this so tragic is that Garek was right in a sense. His people had began to descend into a decadent, arrogant, and self righteous culture who thought of everyone as a threat, not a culture that honored its history. This is the fate of any culture whose sense of self smug superiority starts to regard its neighbors as just another conquest. The Klingons found that out, the Romulans (post Hobus Supernova) even the Federation in its days prior to the Borg encounter. But while Garek and his military did deserve their fate. The ordinary Cardassisns (civilians) certainly did NOT. The Dominion didn't care who it killed. As long as it achieved a goal. They were in a way like the ancient Persians. When Xerxes went up against the Greeks, he basically "threw" anyone into the grinder. He would kill half his army for victory. Sound familiar? Even if you don't agree , how many clones and genetically modified beings did the Dominion field? How many died? Not volunteering, enslaved by the "Founders" and their petty quest for vengeance on anything that was solid. But, here's something that could have changed it. In an alternate timeline, the Klingons and Federation had endured 20 years of unceasing warfare. 40 BILLION DIED according to Guinan. Perhaps if this had become known in the galaxy, the Cardassians would have been more reluctant to accept the Dominion, knowing the Federation was nearly conquered. Being mere months from surrender.
High watermark of television. a triumph undisputed. Seeing Starfleet victorious yet again in the face of adversity gives me more thn any religion ever could.
Lol opinions are great like that. You are free to disagree and I am free to not give any fucks. My knowledge and passion for Trek nullifies your opinion in my eyes.
@@KH4444444444N I know this comment is old or you can be both religious and like Star Trek yeah but you really need to see what modern leftism brings beatings, threats, and censorship of conservatives why all for the sake of your unity which is bullshit and this is coming from a new Star Trek fan.
@@adrianjuarez1162 you are projecting, your words describe the conservative movement, which has abandoned every principle except drinking liberal tears.
@@scottmatheson3346Conservatives drink leftist tears, because leftists don't know real problems in life. They care about pushing their identity onto others, while worshipping collectivism, and polluting the planet no less than conservatists in their just as selfish goals. Hitler established animal protection laws, one of the first in the world. And it was squandered by both, modern right and left wing. Conclusion: human genocide is the only solution to Earth polution.
@@gordonlloyd9335 No, it is not. the value of human life is NOT additive. It is not worse to die in a building explosion with 168 other people than it is to die all alone on an empty highway hit by a drunk driver .
@@gordonlloyd9335 the mindset that thinks 800 million dead is worse than 1 dead leads to Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and red China. And that's why Babylon 5 is so very, very much better than DS9.
He does, in the first two seasons he's a Lieutenant Junior Grade, but from Season 3 onwards he's a full Lieutenant. And besides, as a Chief Medical Officer he doesn't require rank anyway, he outranks everyone from Ensign to Captain in medical matters.
I always wondered about this scene: what happened to the Dominion after this? They were never touched directly by the war, and were presumably still fully intact with many world's under their domain in the Gamma Quadrant. So the only victory the Federation won was repelling the Dominion invasion of the Alpha Quadrant, but the Dominion would continue to rule and terrorize a big chunk of the galaxy. Not much of a victory...
I think they actually attack again in STO (though that's not canon) making this entire war a lost cause overall. On the bright side though, starfleet is probably better prepared now to fight them, having to deal with replacing lost ships, troops, territories, civillians, supplies&resources, and the borg battles. Add to the fact that They probably reverse engineered dominion/borg/breen technology, and that janeway returns later with the suped up USS voyager, and the federation will be back on it's feet in short time.
Correct, the only victory was to have the Dominion withdraw and return to the Gamma quadrant through safe passage. Presumably it was Odo's place to ensure the Dominion would not return for conquest. I doubt any provisions would have been made to adjust the sovereignty of the Dominion itself.
@@hobomike6935 Technically, it wasn't the Dominion proper, it was the 2800 ships that Sisko convinced the Prophets to eliminate. They weren't killed, they were timeshifted about 20 years into the future. They were a little out of date.
in the book stitch in time, it talks about how the cardassian people recover from the aftermath of the war, dont think it talks about the dominion people tho. still, its a good read.
@@jamesbuchanan4414 "They weren't killed, they were timeshifted about 20 years into the future. They were a little out of date" Lol just imagine them exiting the wormhole only to be presented with a fleet of ships armed to the teeth with the returned Voyager's tech including armor technology. The entire thing would be over in no time at all 😂
THIS was Star Trek. Not the shite you get with Discovery now. Star Trek died after Enterprise, they canned the show JUST when it was getting good and had found its feet! The bullshit alternate crap then created by JJ Abrams onwards is a disgrace! Instead of Discovery, they should have started a new series, based say 10 or 15 years post the Dominion War, but still within the Star Trek Universe we knew! Missed opportunity!
Yeah the whole thing between Paramount and the newly acquired Star Trek property by CBS really destroyed Trek. Paramount by contract had to reinvent the characters using new actors if they still wanted to make $$$ off the franchise which is how JJ Trek came to be and CBS Executives wanted to virtue signal and prove how gay the were to the whole world which is how STD came to be, in the end they tried being everything to everyone and ended up being nothing to no one.
@@jakearmitage7811 Pretty much. I've lost any faith in Star Trek now. Becuase its simply NOT Star Trek. I have no buzz or desire to even see the new series Patrick Stewart is being rolled out for because the whole thing reeks of desperation. When you are having to roll out the "old" in order to try and make something "new"......you're in trouble! MAYBE the new Star Trek series based on Section 31 might have some hope, but if its a spinoff of Discovery set in the Discovery universe, then forget it, it'll likely be shit! You hit the nail on the head with the virtue signalling, of which Patrick Stewart has turned into in the last few years.
That is because DS9 was a direct ripoff of B5. The script for B5 was shopped to Paramount first, they held on to it for awhile and declined. B5 started then low and behold DS9 came out with familure story. Law suite followed..yada yada yada... but yeah it is a total rip off but it was still good.
Garek was a fantastic character.
But the series was good because it was never about the individual characters the interplay between contrasting personality was what helped the characters stand out,
If I had to choose between anu characters up to and including enterprise (whichever i like quite a lot) he's way up there in the top 3 for sure
I think DS9 stands out because there are so many great characters. Personally I only liked Picard and Data in TNG, but DS9 had Sisko, Jake, Quake, Nog, Rom, Kira, Odo, Worf (more interesting in DS9 than TNG), Ducat and Garrack. Even characters less interesting like Dax, Bashir, O’Brian and Wyoum are better than the others in TNG, and I liked TNG more than DS9. Garrack is great, but it helps that he was played by a great actor, you always got the sense that behind Garrack charm, was a psychopath.
True
Garak might be my favourite character of the whole show
He lived in uncertain times.
Absolutely nothing was won; a billion people died, just because the Founders were paranoid about the possibility of aggression from the people on the other side of the wormhole. The Founders themselves lost nothing and were never punished; so it's only the Federation and its allies that suffered, for absolutely no reason....
The continued existence of the Federation, Klingon Empire and Romulan Star Empire without been under the heel of the Dominion was won.
Why punish when you can make peace?
the female changeling is being punished.
When all is left but ashes and bones, when the buildings burn, when the guns no longer fire, all that was and was not, all that triumphs and whose whispers blow upon the winds of eternity carry only sorrow. For this is the fate of the victor and the vanquished, this is the winds of war. Let no eye look upon its darkness, for there is only tears. For the abyss looks back not in pity, but in anger.
Jon Davidson
I’m just curious if anyone else has noticed the parallels between this and what is taking place along the southern border.
The worst part is is that it was only the Dominion's FOOTHOLD in the Alpha Quadrant that was defeated. The Dominion itself is practically intact in the Gamma Quadrant, and could invade again. It's up to Odo to convince them otherwise.
This is true. And quite scary. The occupied worlds in the Alpha quadrant provided major ship building and clone production yet they were only a sliver of what the Dominion could have produced in their own native turf built up over thousands of years, and potentially hundreds or even thousands of allied worlds providing resources. After what was seen here, the Federation alliance was just a joke compared to what the Dominion could fight against. The Borg is honestly a much more worthy opponent for the Dominion. So much so, that the Dominion if ever invaded with thousands of cubes, wouldn't even ask the Alpha quadrant for help since they could offer nothing.
@@oldtwinsna8347, that's right and maybe you have noticed, that the Prophets didn't wiped the Fleet out. They moved them through time and so after a long time in Star Trek: Online the "Second Wave" of the Dominion starts the invasion of the Alpha Quadrant. And even after ~50 years with improved technology the Federation has no chance...
They Founders also know that Section 31 can pretty much infect them with a deadly virus whenever they want if they do not keep their peace agreement....
Prophets wouldn't allow it.. I am sure the Founders would have to figure a way to deal with the prophets and section 31 first.
@@doofkos Now, wait a second. The USS Majestic-B kicked dominion arse on that second wave. And the Starfleet's bajoran task force retake DS9 without help. Also, two years later, after the iconan war (talking about brutal wars) one of the founders little experiments goes rampage against them and anhilates almost 60% of dominion space, out siege on founders planet and the Jem'Hadar were actually useless against them. If not for the help of the Starfleet/Klingon/Romulan triple alliance they would have been done for.
What happened to cardassia, and Garak's lament, has clear parallels to the defeat of Germany and Japan in 1945. Great writing without being heavy handed.
And it's the fault of genocidal shapesifting loxists.
The parallels are quite uncanny
You have no idea what the allies did to Germany after the war.
@@skeptiker0124 he's never seen/will never see Europa the Last Battle.
Kardassia never shows up she’s not the andorians
Really James? You really have no idea WHAT WW1 + WW2 were REALLY about do you?
3:21 THE most satisfying moment in Star Trek ever.
yeah, glad that sluts dead
Nope, 3:33 that's what he gets for killing Jadzia.
Carole Fucking Baskin!!@!
This was the one that broke my heart 3:45.
Honestly thr whole pah wraith thing made this the worst finale of trek. Even enterprise at least that show sucked and ended on a whimper. DS9 was fantastic and ended in such a lame way. Such a waste.
The acting, the dialogue, the tone. it’s so top notch quality it makes you wish DS9 had a movie budget for its finale.
i think the problem is too many potential views consider trek to be goofy. the better the ratings, the more money from sponsors and the more quality can be added.
Absolutely!
@@thejamesasher I was too little in the 90s to know, was that the consensus in the 90s? Because I’ve seen a lot of series from the same period and they’re just as goofy if not more.
If you haven’t read it I highly recommend you read “a stitch in time” by Andrew Robinson. It tells of Garak’s past and his return to cardassia. It’s brilliant.
:) its 99 bucks on earths ebay
@@joestitz239 I'm listening to the audiobook for free on spotify. It's a well written book. Written and narrated by Andrew Robinson, the actor who portrayed Garak. I highly recommend it.
A billion people dead (almost all on one side!), and all that stands in the way of another war is a piece of paper. This was no victory for the Alpha Quadrant, merely the cheapest defeat.
a billion? Farrr more...
Close to 1.5 billion cardassians died. There were prob millions of jem'hadar dead, tens of thousands of breen dead, tens of millions of starfleet officers dead, tens of millions of klingons dead, millions of federation citizens dead (invasion of Betazed for example), Tens if not hundreds of thousands of romulans and remans dead.
As a result the Federation(barely) and the Romulans(bc they joined late) were the only superpowers left. After Hobus, just the Federation, after the Synth attack, the Federation was barely a superpower.
@@salilbhatnagar Picard will never be canon for me.
@@LocksAndChains Me neither. Abrams Trek can fkuc off.
Garek is the kind of guy you get chills about. You just do not know how close he can be to the edge.
Imagine, when Bashir says sorry, he actually said "I'm sorry, Elim." Using his real name for the first time, then puts a hand on his shoulder. And have Garak then say the line about them having dinner some time, returning the shoulder pat, calling the doctor Julian.
can you picture it an entire universe set a blaze in flames?🤣🤣🤣
A whole people will pay the cost of the few that control. True then, true now, true in the future.
If we keep allowing the few to control then yes we all will suffer.
The few cannot control the many without some support from the many
@@brucenadeau1280 the wealthy have been controlling the many for centuries. instead of aristocrats and nobles, now we have billionaires, and people supporting them like they are superior to the common folk in just the same way.
Warlord: "What is best in life?" Conan: "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
- genghis khan
@@scottmatheson3346No doubt, but more people know of that quote through the movie than from him.
Garek is right these are uncertain times
They get more and more uncertain. I hope the last 5 years have been kind to you.
"we are guilty" - Aamin Marritza
can you imagine an entire universe set in flames?
Female Changeling: The war between the Dominion and the Federation Alliance is now over.
Klingons and Romulans: The war between the Dominion and who?!
Federation alliance( klingon romulan federation )
@@danilocandidojr735 My point is that neither of the two factions would approve of being called the "federation alliance" as if they're less important than the Federation.
"...we have known the bitterness of defeat and exultation of triumph. And from both we have learned that there can be no turning back. We must go forward to preserve in peace for what we've won in war."
You could see the Changeling didn’t give a fuck about the speech.
@@johnstitt2615
Of course not, since they didn't lose anything. They genocided Cardassia and ravaged the Federation, losing only some slaves and ships they can easily replace, and then at the end they just walk freely back home lmao. This peace deal is great for the Dominion
@@ChrisStavros From a superficial standpoint this is true. But on another level they lost far more than it appears; they were exposed to the whole galaxy for what they were, they lost their image of invincibility, and their weaknesses and vulnerabilities were laid bare for all - likely including enemies in their own quadrant who may now seize upon this opportunity to rise against them. They are now pariahs with no allies. The Alpha Quadrant is fully united against them and should they step out of line they would be hopelessly outnumbered. When great empires are defeated in such a manner and their mystique broken, they become vulnerable to attacks from all sides. And as they showed themselves to be genocidal maniacs they will never be trusted and will be treated as villains by all. They are now Rome on the decline and should they persist in their ways their fall is inevitable.
@@jonathandantonio649 Yep. I mean, if our history is anything to go by, it probably is.
honestly the most satisfying part of this, besides garak's wonderful performance, is when that horrible lady goes up in flames at 3:22. Dukat actually did something good with his powers!
She got some redemption at the end. I like to think there is some good in everyone. Religion in Trek was a bit weird and i still don't really like this plot arc in DS9.
@@Parasmunt yeah the whole pah wraiths pseudo religion thing was weird. And not good weird. Unnecessary weird.
The funny thing is that she COULD have saved the day here, if she'd shut her damn mouth and just tossed the book in the fire while Dukat was busy with Sisko.
But, as always, she needed to be the center of attention.
Well, it was good to see Winn Adami finally accept Sisko as the Emissary. Unfortunate that she had to lose _everything_ to make it happen.
A power hungry traitor, who got no less than she deserved. Betraying the Prophets and Bajor by siding with the Pah'Wraiths. She was frustrated at why the Prophets would never speak to her, and I believe its because they could see her for what she really was. And was never worthy of their attention.
The scene with the actual signing of the surrender documents reminds me of the surrender proceedings on the USS Missouri....I like how Gen. MacArthur was quoted....I wish he also quoted the general's other quote when the ceremony was completed - a simple "these proceedings are now completed"....
I found the exact quote: "these proceedings are closed"
It would have worked but the open ending worked better. It implies that the story continues on after the show is over. That the rebuilding is up to the characters we may not ever see again, only to hear about in books. The quote of "These proceedings are closed." would have instead hammered home a bitter nail of finality.
Pretty sure the show runners wanted the show to end but to leave an air of future possibility and hope to the audience.
It was an amazing callback. McArthur you know smiled at that wherever he is now.
I love the Douglas MacArthur quote
Odo runs the Dominion now. Life goes on. And more adventures to come, perhaps there will one day be a Star Trek Dominion a whole new Quadrant to have adventures in. Of course the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans will expand and there are vast regions in the Gamma Quadrant and Alpha Quadrant not yet explored. Also it is possible that many planets in the Dominion will kick off Dominion rule. There is a huge number of systems that the wormhole does not touch.
Lmao Garak almost did off the entire founders homeworld until Worf stopped him
He should have done it. One of the biggest disappointments in a great series IMO.
@@Mjp11111The homeworld of a galactic superpower would have planetary defenses. Garak should have been aware of that, but was blinded by anger. Worf knew, and correctly calculated, that even one Founder would have been able to rule an entire armada of Jem'Hadar ships bent on revenge. Besides, being fired at from a Federation/Starfleet vessel would have been interpreted as a clear act of war.
Fantastic choice by the writers to invoke McArthur
I had to watch this a few times. It’s too good.
Such a wonderful moment with The Dominion's submission of the articles of surrender, silently taking heed to awesome might and strategic prowess of the Federation alliance. had the Founders had true intimate knowledge of the Federation, their could have been a quantum leap forward for the entire galaxy. World building on a scale unmatched, and giving way to a collaboration that would eventually be victorious in eliminatin the Borg. Shortsighted on their part.
The Dominion's might would mean nothing to the Borg, yeah they'd probably do well in the first few battles, but after the Borg adapted to their weapons they'd be just as helpless as everyone else.
The founders lost because the prophet's destroyed the dominion fleet that was supposed to pass into the alpha quadrant, without that happening the federation would've lost
The only reason the federation won was space magic, literally.
The destruction of the dominion reinforcemeants in the wormhole gave the federation a chance. Without it they would have lost without question.
And the dominion is still fine, they jsut lost their foothold in the alpha quadrant. They still have 1/4 of the galaxy basically for themselfs fully inbtact, meanwhile the alpha and beta quadrants are in ruins.
From a Dominion POV they actually more or less won because their goal was always a) bring Odo back and b) end the threat of solids
Nobody in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant is going to be strong enough to threaten the dominion for decades.
The Borg could have been lost a couple battles. I don’t think full out annihilation
@@EnforcerX71 exactly 💯
Shakespeare in the original Cardasian is pretty good they say.
as someone who only watches the show via youtube clips 3:05 was a trip
The story is still incredible. Bravo.
Well, you can see from this that the Female Changling literally did not give a crap about the lives lost. And she didn't seem to have any regrets or remorse. Sometimes, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better if Odo just let the founders die.
400 years ago a victories general spoke the following words today the guns are silent we have learned victory and the bitterness of defeat from both we have learned there can be no going back we must preserve the peace which we have won in war
I guess right now wouldn't be the time for Bashir to bring up how much he doesn't care for Cardassian literature.
The parting between Garak and Bashir... I wish it was different. Bashir should have offered to stay, or asked Garak to come with him to Earth. Even if they couldn't have the relationship the two actors envisioned, it was still a deep friendship that should have continued.
Garak would have been unhappy on earth
@@hobomike6935Agreed, besides his home world needed a leader and he was the closest thing they still had.
We caught glimpses of how he would like to have seen his homeworld. He knew it would never be because of the current political system. Now hopefully he can implement some of those changes while rebuilding the best of the old system.
Wow , today of all days, this is on my stream. RIP my lady. Also, Garak sound like a Germany after the war.
That's the idea.
Because it's always the same. When you fire the first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill... before everybody does what they were ALWAYS going to have to do from the very beginning! SIT. DOWN. AND. TALK. The Doctor
This single scene, is better than the entire season of Discovery and Strange New worlds
Thank you!
Something is seriously wrong with y’all 😂😂
andrew robinson made a perfect garak.
"We have known the bitterness of defeat, and the exultation of triumph, and from both we have learned absolutely nothing."
I always wondered what the founder signed on the declaration of surrender. Founder? Female changeling? Why would she even need a signature? Why would anyone need a signature??
she signed "the great link"
It is an article of surrender. This must be recognized.
@@welshguy9220 no, odo's child support back pay agreement.
The drop from the ocean
>signed a changeling
I wonder why they let Jake behave as if his father was dead. He could visit him anytime he wanted....
2:20 Did she develop a signature just to sign a human peace treaty?
. . ''we live in uncertain times'' . . .oh so true . .
I just noticed the leader of the Dominion is left-handed. I've seen that episode dozens of times and only now just noticed :D
No, she signed it left handed so no one could prove a righty signature.
It's possible the video is reversed for this posting.
Mac Mcleod no, because the badges are on the correct side
A Greek tragedy that was as if it was written by a philosopher
It should have been signed on the quarterdeck of USS Missouri... still riding at anchor at Pearl Harbor on earth... I think she would still impress even the Klingons...
The entities operating the worm-hole, along with their new friend 'The Cisco' will ensure lasting peace by regulating what is allowed to pass through the worm-hole.
The Dominion reinforcements were not allowed passage and ceased to exist, for example.
With this kind of 'filter' in place, Gamma poses no threat of invasion.
I am not altogether sure what the complaints about the peace treaty amount to; there was neither the will, means, or reason to attack the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant. The objectives of the war were to protect the independence of these powers from Dominion rule. Those objectives were met. There is no longer a reason to continue the war.
As for justice, that’s something to strive for but usually unattainable at this scale. I’ll say this, that trial of the founder is one of THE great untold stories to come out of this.
Best Star Trek series, Best Star Trek captain, and Best Star Trek supporting cast.
respectfully disagree. Loved the Sisko, but Picard will always be best captain :D
@@hobomike6935 piccard and tng tbf was very sterile. Sisko and ds9 crew next level.
@@hobomike6935 sisco actually developed his crew unlike picard , picard was abducted and dam near destroyed the federation , sisco single handedly saved the federation
RIP Barry Jenner.
There were no Cardassians at the surrender ceremony
Now I understood my powers
The greatest war the galaxy had seen in centuries. Nothing compares to this in science fiction practically as what was done here so masterfully. I wish we would have seen more of Cardassia's destruction, But everything else turned out very very well.
1 billion lives? Sounds like casualties of one engagement in Warhammer 40k
I got to watch part of this episode being filmed. My brother worked on DS9 show
Par wraiths would be stopped by the Q.
No other alien species downloaded Kardasian books?
Man, I can't help but feel that the Wraiths thing *should* have been her role instead of his. It would've properly concluded the ongoing rivalry between the Kai and the Emissary
And to think... all of this could have been avoided had the Federation stayed on THEIR SIDE OF THE GALAXY.
It's interesting that when Star Trek: Deep Space Nine plays on Pluto TV and comes to THIS episode, the scene with Garak and Dr. Bashir having the conversation about the 800 million Cardassians dying is edited out! I wonder why Paramount decided to cut that scene out? Ususally, every program on Pluto TV is showed unedited, but not THIS particular episode of DS9.
2:20 Breen in the background just looking confused.
They're just thankful not to be eaten by the Narn.
That treaty is meaningless.
The rest of the Dominion is still very much a threat to the Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.
Only Odo and the Federation can convince the Dominion that it doesn't need to be so aggressive...
That's why it was so important Odo returned to his people.
Janeway i have support technology and cool torpedos and greater armor lets treat the dominion like the borg cube delete button 😂 😃 .
Walk it off, lizard boy.
If you buy everything of valuable and claims you Invent it , that is smart move
Its interesting looking at garaks commentary from cardassian morality
1) the guilty must be punished
2)justice is inevitable.
The cardassian people choose, aggression, greed, hypocrisy and cowardice ergo the horrors inflicted on them are 'just'. Garak knows every horror inflicted on them was their own fault by their own standards and its killing him.
I would like to know what happened with cardassia after the fight I would like to know what happened with the Breen were they ever punished or whatever happened to them what happened with the Dominion what about the Klingon Empire and all of its losses
Breen probably ended up paying compensations for the entire war since Cardassia itself was broke (and also joined the winning side toward the end) and the Dominion left to another quadrant. the Breen were stuck paying the bill
Me 2
Makes sense
The Breen let down their cosmic neighbours. Fuck the Breen.
@Fred Miller no, no, no! You all have wrong! The Breen just jxrhvzsdgv.
Look what we control
This scene is not in the CBS online Access version of DS9
Garak. Epic
Gandalf, is that you?
Nope , it's FRODO !
"Farewell, aDUMMY"
- childish!
Like I said before. Why didn't Adami quietly throw the book into the flames. Sisko and Ducat were distracted enough. I suppose she wanted to die since she couldn't return as Kai.
The founders home planet was destroyed!
Good. They got billions killed because they thought they deserved to control the entire galaxy
What makes this so tragic is that Garek was right in a sense. His people had began to descend into a decadent, arrogant, and self righteous culture who thought of everyone as a threat, not a culture that honored its history. This is the fate of any culture whose sense of self smug superiority starts to regard its neighbors as just another conquest. The Klingons found that out, the Romulans (post Hobus Supernova) even the Federation in its days prior to the Borg encounter.
But while Garek and his military did deserve their fate. The ordinary Cardassisns (civilians) certainly did NOT. The Dominion didn't care who it killed. As long as it achieved a goal. They were in a way like the ancient Persians. When Xerxes went up against the Greeks, he basically "threw" anyone into the grinder. He would kill half his army for victory. Sound familiar? Even if you don't agree , how many clones and genetically modified beings did the Dominion field? How many died? Not volunteering, enslaved by the "Founders" and their petty quest for vengeance on anything that was solid. But, here's something that could have changed it. In an alternate timeline, the Klingons and Federation had endured 20 years of unceasing warfare. 40 BILLION DIED according to Guinan. Perhaps if this had become known in the galaxy, the Cardassians would have been more reluctant to accept the Dominion, knowing the Federation was nearly conquered. Being mere months from surrender.
High watermark of television. a triumph undisputed. Seeing Starfleet victorious yet again in the face of adversity gives me more thn any religion ever could.
LOL out loud. Fools think this is a high watermark. It's leftist drivel.
Lol opinions are great like that. You are free to disagree and I am free to not give any fucks. My knowledge and passion for Trek nullifies your opinion in my eyes.
@@KH4444444444N I know this comment is old or you can be both religious and like Star Trek yeah but you really need to see what modern leftism brings beatings, threats, and censorship of conservatives why all for the sake of your unity which is bullshit and this is coming from a new Star Trek fan.
@@adrianjuarez1162 you are projecting, your words describe the conservative movement, which has abandoned every principle except drinking liberal tears.
@@scottmatheson3346Conservatives drink leftist tears, because leftists don't know real problems in life.
They care about pushing their identity onto others, while worshipping collectivism, and polluting the planet no less than conservatists in their just as selfish goals.
Hitler established animal protection laws, one of the first in the world. And it was squandered by both, modern right and left wing.
Conclusion: human genocide is the only solution to Earth polution.
You right the first time you reap what you sow garek
Who knew that the Suez Canal would cause such grief?
Caleyhhhhhhhhhhhh I have a new Reminders game and a few of
The sad part is that 800 million dead is no worse than 1 dead.
It's 800 million times worse!
@@gordonlloyd9335 No, it is not. the value of human life is NOT additive.
It is not worse to die in a building explosion with 168 other people than it is to die all alone on an empty highway hit by a drunk driver .
@@gordonlloyd9335 the mindset that thinks 800 million dead is worse than 1 dead leads to Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and red China.
And that's why Babylon 5 is so very, very much better than DS9.
It is a tale, told by a Ferengi, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Told by a Pakled
Kind of crazy to think that this all began with the destruction of the USS Odyssey.
I always knew that lady in the dress the bajoran was a faker. She was a poser. I knew it from the start. She had the eyes of a traitor
Kai winns death was the best..
Bashir was the Kim of DS9. He just couldn't get promoted.
He does, in the first two seasons he's a Lieutenant Junior Grade, but from Season 3 onwards he's a full Lieutenant.
And besides, as a Chief Medical Officer he doesn't require rank anyway, he outranks everyone from Ensign to Captain in medical matters.
@@EnforcerX71 That's not a significant upgrade.
I always wondered about this scene: what happened to the Dominion after this? They were never touched directly by the war, and were presumably still fully intact with many world's under their domain in the Gamma Quadrant. So the only victory the Federation won was repelling the Dominion invasion of the Alpha Quadrant, but the Dominion would continue to rule and terrorize a big chunk of the galaxy. Not much of a victory...
I think they actually attack again in STO (though that's not canon) making this entire war a lost cause overall.
On the bright side though, starfleet is probably better prepared now to fight them, having to deal with replacing lost ships, troops, territories, civillians, supplies&resources, and the borg battles.
Add to the fact that They probably reverse engineered dominion/borg/breen technology, and that janeway returns later with the suped up USS voyager, and the federation will be back on it's feet in short time.
Correct, the only victory was to have the Dominion withdraw and return to the Gamma quadrant through safe passage. Presumably it was Odo's place to ensure the Dominion would not return for conquest. I doubt any provisions would have been made to adjust the sovereignty of the Dominion itself.
@@hobomike6935 Technically, it wasn't the Dominion proper, it was the 2800 ships that Sisko convinced the Prophets to eliminate. They weren't killed, they were timeshifted about 20 years into the future. They were a little out of date.
in the book stitch in time, it talks about how the cardassian people recover from the aftermath of the war, dont think it talks about the dominion people tho. still, its a good read.
@@jamesbuchanan4414
"They weren't killed, they were timeshifted about 20 years into the future. They were a little out of date"
Lol just imagine them exiting the wormhole only to be presented with a fleet of ships armed to the teeth with the returned Voyager's tech including armor technology.
The entire thing would be over in no time at all 😂
Was Garak having a psychotic breakdown? It sounded like it.
What did the female changeling sign on the document?
What is the Federation going to do with female Changeling?
I hated the Dukat arc after his half bajoran daughter died. It sucked that the series ended with it.
Khilafa
2:20 What do you know - the female founder is a lefty.
Just curious what the Female changeling signed off as? haha "the Founder?"
SIA.
That supernatural mumbo jumbo in the cave was so cringy
What Garek says about Cardassia getting what they deserved could be said about Germany in 1945.
Well, I'm sure Cardassia has a version of the internet Way Back Machine so Garek is over reacting......
Dominion destroyed that server first.
THIS was Star Trek. Not the shite you get with Discovery now. Star Trek died after Enterprise, they canned the show JUST when it was getting good and had found its feet! The bullshit alternate crap then created by JJ Abrams onwards is a disgrace! Instead of Discovery, they should have started a new series, based say 10 or 15 years post the Dominion War, but still within the Star Trek Universe we knew! Missed opportunity!
Shit off, this is not the place for you to whinge and whine about how much you don't like new material.
@@Jokie155 Its the place for me to say whatever I like, as per your own comment. *Slowly bows* Good day.....sir!
I absolutly agree with you.
Yeah the whole thing between Paramount and the newly acquired Star Trek property by CBS really destroyed Trek. Paramount by contract had to reinvent the characters using new actors if they still wanted to make $$$ off the franchise which is how JJ Trek came to be and CBS Executives wanted to virtue signal and prove how gay the were to the whole world which is how STD came to be, in the end they tried being everything to everyone and ended up being nothing to no one.
@@jakearmitage7811 Pretty much. I've lost any faith in Star Trek now. Becuase its simply NOT Star Trek. I have no buzz or desire to even see the new series Patrick Stewart is being rolled out for because the whole thing reeks of desperation. When you are having to roll out the "old" in order to try and make something "new"......you're in trouble! MAYBE the new Star Trek series based on Section 31 might have some hope, but if its a spinoff of Discovery set in the Discovery universe, then forget it, it'll likely be shit! You hit the nail on the head with the virtue signalling, of which Patrick Stewart has turned into in the last few years.
Ross was quoting Douglas macarthur on The USS Missouri when the Japanese surrendered ending world war 2
Garek as the head of Cardasia, he is the most insidious of them....
Human Vs jinn
Garak is such a drama queen. Cardassia got what it deserved.
😮no one gonna ask why they signed a piece of paper to sugnify the end of war? Surly a PADD or something. Paper LOL
Pah wraiths = the shadows
Benjamin Sisko = John Sheridan
Why did they have to make both shows SO uncannily the same during the same time?
That is because DS9 was a direct ripoff of B5. The script for B5 was shopped to Paramount first, they held on to it for awhile and declined. B5 started then low and behold DS9 came out with familure story. Law suite followed..yada yada yada... but yeah it is a total rip off but it was still good.
@@Tempestan derp.... you think I didn't know that?
@@warcraftdude13 Derp..you would be suprised to how few do know that and by the wording of your statement it seemed you didn't either.
@@Tempestan Your ancestors incestors
Fish look the same because they share the same context
What's left of it? He killed weyoun for saying the same thing lol