This was by far one of the most ground breaking episodes in Star Trek history, both in story telling and a superior battle sequence. Still sends chills down my spine
i guess im asking randomly but does anyone know of a method to get back into an instagram account?? I was stupid forgot my login password. I appreciate any tricks you can offer me.
@Alexander Shepard I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and Im trying it out atm. I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 a wise decision to make it a two parter, especially as the digital effects had improved to the point where we could finally see massive battles in space between the different races.
@@Elthenar I believe the green bottle was Saurian brandy. I believe that Scotty found out during the tng dual episode. I'll take blood wine over Saurian brandy! If it don't kill ya, it'll make you wish it did! 🤣
When this came out, my gf at the time, who was a Trekkie as well, called me at work super excited to tell me to hurry and come watch it on VHS. We recorded them for when I was working. I came home and jaw dropped at this. It was the most exciting thing Trek had done up to this point. It was surreal at the time.
"Execute order 66." Sir, that's Star Wars. "Er, execute planetary sterilization pattern number 5." Number 5? Which one is that. I haven't sterilized any planets lately. "Never mind, just...open fire!"
Up to this point the most Star Trek could get over us was a dozen ships on screen. A fleet of twenty was big in our minds, forty was epic. So when that romulan says one-hundred and fifty ships are coming at them it was world-shaking.
If only they had 20 highly manoeuvrable defiant class ships, he would have simply said they should have sent 400 and set about completely destroying the fleet. But nope into the Romulan sent the most unmanoeuvrable vessel ever, the deridex_class battle ship.
You cut one of Garak's best lines in the episode: "They've set up a transmitter on the surface sending us false sensor readings. THE PLANET IS DESERTED!"
0:37 - that moment really was the game changing moment. Even with the loss of the Odyssey, and the games the Dominion played against the DS9 crew until now, the Tal'Shiar-Obsidiant order lured into the trap and swatter like nothing let the viewers know they were way more formidable than we were led to believe. True "Oh shit" moment.
to be fair they are secret agencies that NEVER thought they could be infiltrated. Both are respected and feared agencies across the quadrant. Their own secrecy and self assurance was used against them....
Oddly enough, it helped the Alpha quadrant side to not have sneaky paranoid elements in the fight.It certainly helped bringing the Romulans into the fight and it helped Damar and the Cardassian resistance.
But doesn't really make a lot of sense. Tal Shiar and Obsidian didn't need to man the vessels with agents of the groups once they completed. Any normal officer could have carried out the mission, considering all it required was to travel under cloak to the planet and then start bombarding it.
Technically only the Obsidian Order was wiped out. The Tal Shiar was badly weakened, but was careful enough not to fully commit their entire force to the attack. Tain pushed for the full Order to go, probably hoping to recapture some of his glory from having been the Order's greatest leader. As for not needing to man the ships themselves? Actually, yes they did. This would be what in the 'spy game' is called a 'black ops' situation. Normal military protocol would have prevented the Cardassians and Romulans from even making the attempt to wipe out the Founders. This had to be done outside the normal chain of command, in order to avoid any 'red tape' or 'moral objections' (not that either the Romulans or Cardassians WOULD have objected...) - and it also gave both governments 'plausible deniability'. The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order could both be disavowed and declared 'rogue elements' or 'extremist terrorists', and allow for diplomactic routes to be taken. We all know such options would have been pointless in the face of the Dominion's modus operandi, but still...forms must be obeyed.
"Tain originated the plan; when we heard of it, we did everything we could to carry it forward" Man you know your idea is shitty if the intended target's reaction is "yes good very good let me give you a hand with that"
I wish Starfleet had created a fleet of them as planned. Too many make the mistake of thinking that single Defiant class ships were to take on the Borg. Of course it would have been a number of them attacking a cube at once. Very cool ships.
It's way way more maneuverable than a tank though... it has the armor to accept a lot of energy damage, and quad phasers to fuck things up, and can fly circles around big targets
It was nice how they connected the "suggestion" of 24 months to have any defense against the Borg, as well as using that time to have the fleet up in less than a year.
I liked how the changeling let Garak go out of respect for the obvious friendship between him and Odo when he could've easily liquified him with a Romulan disruptor
Garak is such a brilliant character. He added such depth and intrigue to the series. Definitely added a more adult mature complex element to the storytelling. DS9 brought a lot of the storytelling back down to a humanoid level. The God level being and cosmic stakes story lines get a bit overblown and unrelatable at times. DS9 managed to avoid a lot of that by having plots more humanoid centric. Even the stories with the prophets and the founders focused more on the struggles of their humanoid followers dealing with their faiths than the God like beings themselves.
@@spacecadet2172 That whole "lowest bidder" thing really caught up with the Federation when it came time to insulate their ships. The Ferengi subcontractors are still counting their latinum.
Emperor Palpatine could've learned from this: if you lure your enemy into a trap, don't just pester them with starfighters, envelop and destroy them with your ships.
that wasnt mistake on his part, the rebel fleet would have been destroyed either way but he needed psychological pressure to turn Luke which was WAY more important to him than the rebels. the fact the rebels willingly chose to make a suicidal run on the imperial fleet rather than stay in the open to be target for the Deathstar might have told you that attacking them with just fighters leaving the rebel fleet open to the most powerful weapon in the battle was the tactically superior choice to begin with.
It's funny how badly misinformed their intelligence was. They thought a fleet of 20 ships could even make a dent on an operation of this scale. And this wasn't a covert operation, especially when they told everyone in the Alpha Quadrant that they were going to do this before they went into the wormhole.
Why not announce it as soon as you arrive at the wormhole? Nobody can warn the founders, except through the wormhole, so they only had to prevent that until they are gone through, and ask the Federation to keep it closed for a little while after, so nobody would outrun them towards the founders homeworld. (which requires them to tell the Federation)
It is also funny that the Dominion missed the opportunity to acquire, study, reverse-engineer and employ the stealth modules of the wrecked OO/TS ships. A stealthy Dominion armada would have steamrolled the alpha quadrant
@@hindermannbjorn9507 the thing about that is, they normally just steamrolled right through their opposition and thus didn't need to result to stealth tactics. If it wasn't a case of numerical superiority overwhelming their enemies, then it was the fact that their weapons could penetrate most shields - and even in situations where the tide began to turn in the enemy's favor they were willing to sacrifice themselves in Kamikaze runs at the enemy ships. In a way they were worse opponents than the Borg.
@@danieljackson1272 Normally yes. But the Dominion already perceived the Federation/Klingon Alliance as a real threat that needed sophisticated infiltration, subterfuge and diplomatic isolation which was done well. They created "perfect" unquestioning loyal soldiers and servants which they can replace quick. So why pass up the opportunity to improve their own reliable forces, understand the cloaking which romulans, klingon and the defiant uses and relying in alliances with solid cardassians and breen? I perceive it as a dent in founder perfectionism
I loved this episode, I loved his story art. My only problem was with the battle. The Romulan and cardassian ships are simply standing still, and not even firing. These are state-of-the-art warships, manned by combat veterans. They would have been firing relentlessly. They would have been overwhelmed, but they would not have gone down quietly
I saw this when it aired on TV. Who else here was holding their breath every time they went to commercial for this episode? Yeah thats right I had to with through commercials but damn did it make coming back from commercial break so much sweeter.
Why do D'deridex-class Warbirds look so bad-ass and advanced, but seem to just shit themselves and become immediate cannon fodder in this episode? The odds were crazy but they didn't even fight back
They are huge but only about equal to a Galaxy Class ship in firepower. They do put up a fight but the odds were 150 vs 20 ships, even the small Jem'Hadar attack vessels are dangerous in large numbers. Swarmed. The battle continues after the Defiant leaves. I would imagine the Dominion took at least 1/3 losses.
Dominion weapons were still more effective against shields at this point. After an attack ship was captured, the technologies were studied. Defenses were improved after the Dominion invaded. Cardassians were also given technical assistance after joining the Dominion. The combined force was able to offset any technical advances the Alliance had. A Warbird was just a big target until then, maybe taking out a couple ships, each. Later on, the Warbird was a match for the battlecruisers.
150 ships coming out of a nebula and apparently nobody thinks to cloak and get moving back to the Alpha quadrant. It really amazes me how the Romulan warbird is touted to be one of the most powerful ships in the Alpha quadrant yet literally any time it appears in ds9 it gets its ass handed to it. They spent an entire episode cantered on bringing the Romulans into the war, yet you never see their Warbirds doing anything of worth in the battles, you see the federation and Klingons destroying ships, but the Warbird is basically a decoration, sitting about not doing much.
Only Sisko would have the balls to enter a warzone containing 150 Dominion ships and then start shooting up Dominion ships AND living to tell the tale!
"The third ship is still pursuing" - "Aft torpedos, fire" and it's just a single button to press. Why do they have to wait for the Captain to order every single shot? Just fire at the enemies! Or better: let the computer do it.
Always been a flaw in Star Trek. Computers would work so much faster than having to go through all the verbal orders and human interactions with the console. Sisko said the plan was to fire at 500 meters, so instead of auto firing at 500 meters, Dax has to call out when they reach 500, and then he orders to fire. At the speed the ships were flying towards each other, they would have already collided by the time the first shot was fired.
@@FlintIronstag23 You would also think ship computers would be better able to stay ahead of Borg adaptations against rotating shield and phaser freqs. Just enter in attack plan whatever and the ship computer would handle the selection and firing of weapons as well as ship handling. It would be interesting if somebody did a DS9 Trek novel where it turned out Section 31 dug up the old M-5 computer plans and retrofitted it to older Miranda,Excelsior, or Constitution refit ships, so they could operate with bare bones crews during the Dominion War.
It would STILL be interesting, that, if there was a major BORG invasion of, the Gamma space, among other incursions, and the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Bajorans, and with special attention to The Dominion, had to "ALL", work together, big time!! For if one fell, all would. And a WAR like that would last longer than two years, and the destruction caused by the BORG would be absolutely catastrophic!! And much, much, harder to fight an enemy that will not surrender!! A good concept!!??
Its interesting that the founder said the only real threat were the Klingons and the Federation but yet they would make treaties with the Tholians and Miradorn so must have thought they were a real threat.
Crippling the Romulan Tal Shiar and Cardassian Obsidian Order was a brilliant plan by the Founders to weaken the Alpha Quadrant factions. I’m so sad so many D’deridex was lost.😢
1) The Jem'Hadar fired on Odo & Weyoun 6... when they didn't know he was aboard. 2) The Jem'Hadar fired on the runabout with Odo & Garak aboard... so apparently the "no changeling has ever harmed another" doesn't mean "No Jem'Hadar has ever harmed a Changeling." 3) The Jem'Hadar didn't concentrate on the Defiant... just enough firepower to persuade Sisko to leave...
I wonder what happened to the out of phase Romulan who was thrown through the bulk head!? Might make an interesting follow up story or maybe the Romulan whom the changeling was impersonating was imprisoned like Bashir, Martok among others!
2:33 i guess the founders COMPLETELY “missed the boat” on SECTION 31. ….the ones who actually were able to bring about the founders’ extermination. …until Odo decided to heal them.
Honestly, I think Gene would have looked at the Dominion War as massive failure of the Federation to win over the Dominion with it's idealism, or have a transcendent species step in and dictate peace. Kirk hunted down a marauding Romulan ship to keep the peace and it's commander self destructed. Kirk went after a marauding Gorn ship and was forced by godlike aliens beings into a battle to the death with the Gorn Captain he refused kill in cold blood after injuring it. The Orgainians stopped the out break of a Federation /Klingon War. I think the idea of setting a Trek series during a multi season galactic war that could not be resolved by a rousing Kirk speech, or timely alien intervention,would have horrified Roddenberry.
I like how the founder who was posing as the romulan officer told them not to withdraw and make a stand, ensuring they all would be destroyed. thing that didn't make much sense though is why the obsidian order and telshiar would of commited the entire organizations to this battle? They said this would wipe those organizations out? Seems pretty silly.
The Changeling impersonating this Tal Shiar Officer didn’t mention other potential threats; e.g. Breen (probably already infiltrated), Shelliak, Gorn and the Borg. The Borg in particular would be a more dangerous threat to the Dominion.
That Romulan at 0:43 is hot & would absolutely get it. 😂 Seriously though, I wonder if that's the same one from the episode where Worf, Ezri, the Romulan, and that one Breen were being held prisoner?
Considering the Dominion had thousands of warships I can definitively see them using 150 for this ambush easily. You have to remember the Dominion occupy the same amount of space as ALL the major Alpha quadrant political entities and considering that each one had just hundreds of ships before the war. Ya,150 ships is a drop in the bucket.
They shouldve sent a scout ship, a completely foreign ship with the best upgrades cloak that doesnt register as romulan... Even if caught it would be blown up up or the person could kill themselves(alien in appearance
"There's no way out of here Garak. The Jem'Hadar have cut us off, we need to consolidate the fleet, and make our stand here!" - Says the Romulan founder spy.
Two of the most secretive and covert groups in the entire quadrant wiped out in a half-assed direct attack. That is some lazy writing right there. BUT at least Section 31 was written with some common sense.
Even as a kid... I was yelling "cloak" at the screen. They think their cloaks are effective at this point (and supposedly are in-universe); the fighters are out of range... IMMEDIATELY cloak, and disperse in random directions at warp, then retreat to alpha quadrant and rally at DS9. Yes, Lovak is a changing, and he's giving the orders to make a stand, but Tain is shown here to be a complete idiot. It also completely undermines all of the tension & drama they've been building. Of course, the writers could've just had them be in firing range already which would've fixed it... but the way this is written it always infuriated me; because we are told over and over that these people are the best and brightest, and then as soon as something goes awry, they turn into mentally-handicapped idiots who might as well be banging their heads on the keyboards drooling. Also... the Cardassians & Romulans never fire back... at least in the initial battle scenes. :-/ Also made no sense that the Jem'Hadar would be chasing the Runabout or shooting at it; that might be the most egregious thing in maybe the whole series. Lovak, a Founder, beamed onto one of the Dominion ships after giving Odo the Runabout. He would have ordered them to explicitly NOT shoot it, and not even shoot the Romulan flagship until they left. Hell, the Jem'Hadar probably would have escorted the Runabout back to DS9. I actually think that's a way better ending and way scarier... this whole fleet goes through the wormhole, and all that comes back out is the Runabout, with Garak alone to tell the tale.
The ships were probably coming from pretty much all sides. No matter what angle you tried to warp your way out, you'd get chased by at least half a dozen Jem'Hadar ships no matter what.
@Ganda Gandara I say that's a production error. Cause it makes so much more sense for them to be firing on them, only for it to not do much since the Jem'Hadar's shields are not getting bypassed like theirs are.
@Ganda Gandara Not really. The Odyssey was up against 3 or so ships. Here, the 20 coalition ships are up against *one hundred and fifty* Jem'Hadar ships. 150!! That's like 7 and a half enemies per ship, it's honestly overkill!
I love that the Romulans could tell Odo liked Kira before Kira even knew it.
This was by far one of the most ground breaking episodes in Star Trek history, both in story telling and a superior battle sequence. Still sends chills down my spine
i guess im asking randomly but does anyone know of a method to get back into an instagram account??
I was stupid forgot my login password. I appreciate any tricks you can offer me.
@Jericho Kayson Instablaster ;)
@Alexander Shepard I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and Im trying it out atm.
I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
Even more so since it was originally gonna be a one parter that ended with a return to status quo.
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 a wise decision to make it a two parter, especially as the digital effects had improved to the point where we could finally see massive battles in space between the different races.
Dominion: The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar are both ruthless and efficient organizations.
Section 31: Hold my beer.
Don't you mean: hold my Romulan ale!
should have escaped. cant be cut off in SPACE
The Obsedian Order was way more efficient, skilled, cunnning, witty, and ruthless than Section 31. Elim Garak is proof of this fact.
@@keithgolden77 Real men go for the Andorian stuff! Or whatever is in the green bottle.
@@Elthenar I believe the green bottle was Saurian brandy. I believe that Scotty found out during the tng dual episode.
I'll take blood wine over Saurian brandy! If it don't kill ya, it'll make you wish it did! 🤣
When this came out, my gf at the time, who was a Trekkie as well, called me at work super excited to tell me to hurry and come watch it on VHS. We recorded them for when I was working. I came home and jaw dropped at this. It was the most exciting thing Trek had done up to this point. It was surreal at the time.
What a time to be alive. Ha. Waiting for episodes to come on Tv and recording them.
@@campion04 I feel like there was something special about that. I miss that tbh.
V h s was the only way I saw many shows due to night shifts.
I use to put a poster size sign on my door. DS9 on Go Away. Waited all week for this show to come on.
i came home form school ever week, my family would watch tng, not before golden girls, thank you for being a freind!
"Execute order 66."
Sir, that's Star Wars.
"Er, execute planetary sterilization pattern number 5."
Number 5? Which one is that. I haven't sterilized any planets lately.
"Never mind, just...open fire!"
EXTERMINATUS
General Order 24...
Up to this point the most Star Trek could get over us was a dozen ships on screen. A fleet of twenty was big in our minds, forty was epic. So when that romulan says one-hundred and fifty ships are coming at them it was world-shaking.
If only they had 20 highly manoeuvrable defiant class ships, he would have simply said they should have sent 400 and set about completely destroying the fleet. But nope into the Romulan sent the most unmanoeuvrable vessel ever, the deridex_class battle ship.
You cut one of Garak's best lines in the episode: "They've set up a transmitter on the surface sending us false sensor readings. THE PLANET IS DESERTED!"
Yes. You are right
ITS A TRAP!
Garak always knew
@@NormAppleton You mean Admiral Garakbar
@@randomrazris that a Star Wars Return of the Jedi reference ?!?
Who needs a Death Star when you got a huge space armada of two empires firing at once on a Planet
Such a great character episode for Odo and Garak.
“You know the sad part is? I’m a very good tailor.”
either I'll court marshal you or promote you either way you won't like it🤣🤣🤣
The end made me laugh out loud. Very witty.
yeah that was to good🤣🤣🤣
0:37 - that moment really was the game changing moment. Even with the loss of the Odyssey, and the games the Dominion played against the DS9 crew until now, the Tal'Shiar-Obsidiant order lured into the trap and swatter like nothing let the viewers know they were way more formidable than we were led to believe. True "Oh shit" moment.
One of the best setups ever lol ...the Cardassians: Romulans had no clue.
Just like them spider shadows set up the Narn in Babylon 5 ot the basestars in Galactica when they destroyed the colonies.
to be fair they are secret agencies that NEVER thought they could be infiltrated. Both are respected and feared agencies across the quadrant. Their own secrecy and self assurance was used against them....
Such a brilliant episode. Eliminating the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order in this was just epic story telling.
Oddly enough, it helped the Alpha quadrant side to not have sneaky paranoid elements in the fight.It certainly helped bringing the Romulans into the fight and it helped Damar and the Cardassian resistance.
But doesn't really make a lot of sense. Tal Shiar and Obsidian didn't need to man the vessels with agents of the groups once they completed. Any normal officer could have carried out the mission, considering all it required was to travel under cloak to the planet and then start bombarding it.
@@DavidKnowles0 Agreed, but more fun seeing the leadership decimated.
Technically only the Obsidian Order was wiped out. The Tal Shiar was badly weakened, but was careful enough not to fully commit their entire force to the attack. Tain pushed for the full Order to go, probably hoping to recapture some of his glory from having been the Order's greatest leader.
As for not needing to man the ships themselves? Actually, yes they did. This would be what in the 'spy game' is called a 'black ops' situation. Normal military protocol would have prevented the Cardassians and Romulans from even making the attempt to wipe out the Founders. This had to be done outside the normal chain of command, in order to avoid any 'red tape' or 'moral objections' (not that either the Romulans or Cardassians WOULD have objected...) - and it also gave both governments 'plausible deniability'. The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order could both be disavowed and declared 'rogue elements' or 'extremist terrorists', and allow for diplomactic routes to be taken. We all know such options would have been pointless in the face of the Dominion's modus operandi, but still...forms must be obeyed.
"Tain originated the plan; when we heard of it, we did everything we could to carry it forward"
Man you know your idea is shitty if the intended target's reaction is "yes good very good let me give you a hand with that"
The Defiant is a friggin tank! I love it! Lol...
I wish Starfleet had created a fleet of them as planned. Too many make the mistake of thinking that single Defiant class ships were to take on the Borg. Of course it would have been a number of them attacking a cube at once. Very cool ships.
It's way way more maneuverable than a tank though... it has the armor to accept a lot of energy damage, and quad phasers to fuck things up, and can fly circles around big targets
@@JohnnyZenith Sounded like they might not have the means to make too many.
@@G1ingy remembering it wss to over powered and since this is fiction they didnt work out the bugs Like a good scientist would
It was nice how they connected the "suggestion" of 24 months to have any defense against the Borg, as well as using that time to have the fleet up in less than a year.
"Colonel, there are ships coming out of the nebula!"
"What type of ships?"
"Jem'Hadar fighters!"
"How many?"
"All of them, I think."
Admiral Ackbar: IT'S A TRAP!
I liked how the changeling let Garak go out of respect for the obvious friendship between him and Odo when he could've easily liquified him with a Romulan disruptor
Not even the Romulans are safe from the Worf Effect.
Garak is such a brilliant character. He added such depth and intrigue to the series. Definitely added a more adult mature complex element to the storytelling. DS9 brought a lot of the storytelling back down to a humanoid level. The God level being and cosmic stakes story lines get a bit overblown and unrelatable at times. DS9 managed to avoid a lot of that by having plots more humanoid centric. Even the stories with the prophets and the founders focused more on the struggles of their humanoid followers dealing with their faiths than the God like beings themselves.
the great link calls to you it calls you to come and join with it
Sparks flying from a console are always fatal.
I've noticed these sparks from the plastic panel often result in a piece of metal shrapnel lodged vertical through someone's face.
thought all species of the star trek universe used explodium as the main component in consoles.
@@hiuto2don’t forget that they love to fill the ceiling and the interior of the bulkheads with literal STONE rocks haha
@@spacecadet2172 That whole "lowest bidder" thing really caught up with the Federation when it came time to insulate their ships. The Ferengi subcontractors are still counting their latinum.
Emperor Palpatine could've learned from this: if you lure your enemy into a trap, don't just pester them with starfighters, envelop and destroy them with your ships.
that wasnt mistake on his part, the rebel fleet would have been destroyed either way but he needed psychological pressure to turn Luke which was WAY more important to him than the rebels. the fact the rebels willingly chose to make a suicidal run on the imperial fleet rather than stay in the open to be target for the Deathstar might have told you that attacking them with just fighters leaving the rebel fleet open to the most powerful weapon in the battle was the tactically superior choice to begin with.
That is an incredible edit right there at the end 😂😂😂
It's funny how badly misinformed their intelligence was. They thought a fleet of 20 ships could even make a dent on an operation of this scale. And this wasn't a covert operation, especially when they told everyone in the Alpha Quadrant that they were going to do this before they went into the wormhole.
the connie can destory a planet of life these ships are far more superior then a connie
Why not announce it as soon as you arrive at the wormhole? Nobody can warn the founders, except through the wormhole, so they only had to prevent that until they are gone through, and ask the Federation to keep it closed for a little while after, so nobody would outrun them towards the founders homeworld. (which requires them to tell the Federation)
It is also funny that the Dominion missed the opportunity to acquire, study, reverse-engineer and employ the stealth modules of the wrecked OO/TS ships. A stealthy Dominion armada would have steamrolled the alpha quadrant
@@hindermannbjorn9507 the thing about that is, they normally just steamrolled right through their opposition and thus didn't need to result to stealth tactics. If it wasn't a case of numerical superiority overwhelming their enemies, then it was the fact that their weapons could penetrate most shields - and even in situations where the tide began to turn in the enemy's favor they were willing to sacrifice themselves in Kamikaze runs at the enemy ships. In a way they were worse opponents than the Borg.
@@danieljackson1272 Normally yes. But the Dominion already perceived the Federation/Klingon Alliance as a real threat that needed sophisticated infiltration, subterfuge and diplomatic isolation which was done well. They created "perfect" unquestioning loyal soldiers and servants which they can replace quick. So why pass up the opportunity to improve their own reliable forces, understand the cloaking which romulans, klingon and the defiant uses and relying in alliances with solid cardassians and breen? I perceive it as a dent in founder perfectionism
I loved this episode, I loved his story art. My only problem was with the battle. The Romulan and cardassian ships are simply standing still, and not even firing. These are state-of-the-art warships, manned by combat veterans. They would have been firing relentlessly. They would have been overwhelmed, but they would not have gone down quietly
A fan re-imagining of the battle shots with modern FX would be *amazing*
yep. most ships just sit there/float around. but, that was what they could do with the tech and budget they had.
I saw this when it aired on TV. Who else here was holding their breath every time they went to commercial for this episode? Yeah thats right I had to with through commercials but damn did it make coming back from commercial break so much sweeter.
Why do D'deridex-class Warbirds look so bad-ass and advanced, but seem to just shit themselves and become immediate cannon fodder in this episode? The odds were crazy but they didn't even fight back
TV logic.
They are huge but only about equal to a Galaxy Class ship in firepower. They do put up a fight but the odds were 150 vs 20 ships, even the small Jem'Hadar attack vessels are dangerous in large numbers. Swarmed. The battle continues after the Defiant leaves. I would imagine the Dominion took at least 1/3 losses.
Dominion weapons were still more effective against shields at this point. After an attack ship was captured, the technologies were studied. Defenses were improved after the Dominion invaded. Cardassians were also given technical assistance after joining the Dominion. The combined force was able to offset any technical advances the Alliance had. A Warbird was just a big target until then, maybe taking out a couple ships, each. Later on, the Warbird was a match for the battlecruisers.
Even spaceships aren't safe from the Worf Effect.
Romulan-Changeling had access to all specs & off they went to the Dominion to study.
2:34 - 2:42 I love how the set up the premise of the fourth and the first half of the fifth season with that line.
150 ships coming out of a nebula and apparently nobody thinks to cloak and get moving back to the Alpha quadrant. It really amazes me how the Romulan warbird is touted to be one of the most powerful ships in the Alpha quadrant yet literally any time it appears in ds9 it gets its ass handed to it. They spent an entire episode cantered on bringing the Romulans into the war, yet you never see their Warbirds doing anything of worth in the battles, you see the federation and Klingons destroying ships, but the Warbird is basically a decoration, sitting about not doing much.
Even Romulan Warbirds have the exploding console danger.
This was and AWESOME episode
I've always wandered what the attack pattern omega 4 looked like
Only Sisko would have the balls to enter a warzone containing 150 Dominion ships and then start shooting up Dominion ships AND living to tell the tale!
10 years later it would take the Romulans hours to decide on which pattern was best to destroy a planet’s crust.
"The third ship is still pursuing" - "Aft torpedos, fire" and it's just a single button to press. Why do they have to wait for the Captain to order every single shot? Just fire at the enemies! Or better: let the computer do it.
You have to admit, it was an EPIC button press with that dramatic camera pan/zoom :D
Always been a flaw in Star Trek. Computers would work so much faster than having to go through all the verbal orders and human interactions with the console. Sisko said the plan was to fire at 500 meters, so instead of auto firing at 500 meters, Dax has to call out when they reach 500, and then he orders to fire. At the speed the ships were flying towards each other, they would have already collided by the time the first shot was fired.
@@FlintIronstag23
You would also think ship computers would be better able to stay ahead of Borg adaptations against rotating shield and phaser freqs.
Just enter in attack plan whatever and the ship computer would handle the selection and firing of weapons as well as ship handling.
It would be interesting if somebody did a DS9 Trek novel where it turned out Section 31 dug up the old M-5 computer plans and retrofitted
it to older Miranda,Excelsior, or Constitution refit ships, so they could operate with bare bones crews during the Dominion War.
"150" was like Richie Cunningham saying "72".
It would STILL be interesting, that, if there was a major BORG invasion of, the Gamma space, among other incursions, and the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Bajorans, and with special attention to The Dominion, had to "ALL", work together, big time!! For if one fell, all would. And a WAR like that would last longer than two years, and the destruction caused by the BORG would be absolutely catastrophic!! And much, much, harder to fight an enemy that will not surrender!! A good concept!!??
No.
Its interesting that the founder said the only real threat were the Klingons and the Federation but yet they would make treaties with the Tholians and Miradorn so must have thought they were a real threat.
Janeway took care of the borg already
Love the ending!
What episode is the ending from? Whats the context?
Its from ST The Next Generation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Next_Phase
Interesting that only the dominion ships were firing.
Pretty sure the original idea was to have all ships firing. No idea why that didn't happen. Maybe it was the budget?
it was a budget issues, thats why the ships loss here.
the Romulans/Cardassians had just unleashed their entire salvo on the planet
I like the ending.
That ending was funny, lol
Crippling the Romulan Tal Shiar and Cardassian Obsidian Order was a brilliant plan by the Founders to weaken the Alpha Quadrant factions. I’m so sad so many D’deridex was lost.😢
They forgot to target Section 31 which almost killed all the Founders, so yeah. Humans will be humans I guess.
They could have salvaged the damaged ships and obtained the cloaking devices, guess they didn't think of that lol
I'm shocked the Jem'Hadar fired on the Defiant after Odo beamed aboard.
1) The Jem'Hadar fired on Odo & Weyoun 6... when they didn't know he was aboard.
2) The Jem'Hadar fired on the runabout with Odo & Garak aboard... so apparently the "no changeling has ever harmed another" doesn't mean "No Jem'Hadar has ever harmed a Changeling."
3) The Jem'Hadar didn't concentrate on the Defiant... just enough firepower to persuade Sisko to leave...
This was the first we really see the Defiant kickass.
I wonder what happened to the out of phase Romulan who was thrown through the bulk head!? Might make an interesting follow up story or maybe the Romulan whom the changeling was impersonating was imprisoned like Bashir, Martok among others!
Q said of the Borg to Picard: 'we'll just have to see how ready you are.'
Dominion a few years later..' hold my beer'
Such a cool storyline!
Seeing 150 ships coming why not just cloak and run?
Cloaking take a few seconds during which they won't have any shields
The Defiant's phaser pound your shields and ship with no time to react.
2:33
i guess the founders COMPLETELY “missed the boat” on SECTION 31.
….the ones who actually were able to bring about the founders’ extermination. …until Odo decided to heal them.
I wonder if Gene Roddenberry ever envisioned such an epic space battle in his Star Trek franchise? WOTTA WAR!!!
Honestly, I think Gene would have looked at the Dominion War as massive failure of the Federation to win over the Dominion with it's idealism,
or have a transcendent species step in and dictate peace.
Kirk hunted down a marauding Romulan ship to keep the peace and it's commander self destructed.
Kirk went after a marauding Gorn ship and was forced by godlike aliens beings into a battle to the death with the Gorn Captain he refused
kill in cold blood after injuring it.
The Orgainians stopped the out break of a Federation /Klingon War.
I think the idea of setting a Trek series during a multi season galactic war that could not be resolved by a rousing Kirk speech, or timely alien intervention,would have horrified Roddenberry.
1:03 That's Admiral Ackbar's line
😂😂😂hahahahaa 5:02
"If you pull a stunt like that again ill court martial you... Or I'll promote you... Either way you'll be in a lot of trouble"😂😂😂😂
We all know that Sisko must have pull another stunt like that off screen because he got promoted
I like how the founder who was posing as the romulan officer told them not to withdraw and make a stand, ensuring they all would be destroyed. thing that didn't make much sense though is why the obsidian order and telshiar would of commited the entire organizations to this battle? They said this would wipe those organizations out? Seems pretty silly.
Defiant, hold my beer I got this.
USS Ben Sisko's motherfucking pimp hand.
Mario Chalmers. Classic and Iconic.
The Die is Cast might be my favorite episode ever (2 parts)
Old episode The Die is Cast...But damn did i love the Tain he was a bold one and when he clowns its powerful....So much for the Dominion!
Leland Orser doing yeoman's work as always
so glad the Orville wasnt on that fight they have no transporter to move around.
LOL that ending :P
They need to showcase the Defiant more in future shows.
The pathic part of the battle is you have warships just ships just sitting there doing nothing instead of firing.
budget issues
These cookie cutter jobs are hilarious 😂
The Klingons, The Federation.... and the Borg
Would have been interesting to see a squadron of Defiant's in action
That last part had me
It isn’t too late for the elite. You can still surround yourself with hyper tufa and attract wildlife. You can stay safe tonight, too 🍟🥖🇹🇫🇵🇫🇬🇫🇫🇷
That battle would have gone differently if they had a 20 defiants class ships.
That ending.
I´d like the phaser power fire from the defiant.
Great ending
This was vicious
So much for the dominion
The Changeling impersonating this Tal Shiar Officer didn’t mention other potential threats; e.g. Breen (probably already infiltrated), Shelliak, Gorn and the Borg. The Borg in particular would be a more dangerous threat to the Dominion.
They might not have been aware of the Borg, or perhaps their nanoprobes are incompatible with Changeling physiology.
There’s a traitor on the bridge.
Not a single ship had good enough sensors that could detect even 1 of 150 ships.
Meet the defiant - the most powerful ship in the entire universe
That Romulan at 0:43 is hot & would absolutely get it. 😂 Seriously though, I wonder if that's the same one from the episode where Worf, Ezri, the Romulan, and that one Breen were being held prisoner?
That's Wendy Schenker. She looks better as Romulan.
Over 150?! There's no way that can be right!
Considering the Dominion had thousands of warships I can definitively see them using 150 for this ambush easily. You have to remember the Dominion occupy the same amount of space as ALL the major Alpha quadrant political entities and considering that each one had just hundreds of ships before the war. Ya,150 ships is a drop in the bucket.
What happened in there shield
They shouldve sent a scout ship, a completely foreign ship with the best upgrades cloak that doesnt register as romulan...
Even if caught it would be blown up up or the person could kill themselves(alien in appearance
2:39 yea only that Klingons and Fed's homeworlds, thus their locations, is in the BETA QUADRANT!
That is saavik number 2
No it’s not
The only threat now are the klingons and the federation
THE ENDING!!!!! ROFL
IT'S A TRAP! ... so why don t they just set the cloak on and fly away?
"There's no way out of here Garak. The Jem'Hadar have cut us off, we need to consolidate the fleet, and make our stand here!" - Says the Romulan founder spy.
@@bobpage6597 that was about a half an hour later....
Section 31 the best kept secret in the Alpha Quadrant.
Next to Quarks beetle snuff.
Two of the most secretive and covert groups in the entire quadrant wiped out in a half-assed direct attack.
That is some lazy writing right there. BUT at least Section 31 was written with some common sense.
Why didn't they recloak? Should have emphasised a local Dominion anti stealth and warp engine dampening device this really making it a trap!
tuff little ship....??
I wasn't finished, I wonder how many jem hadar fighters those 20 tal shiar, obsidian order ships were able to destroy, any thoughts?
Its a trap!!
Even as a kid... I was yelling "cloak" at the screen. They think their cloaks are effective at this point (and supposedly are in-universe); the fighters are out of range... IMMEDIATELY cloak, and disperse in random directions at warp, then retreat to alpha quadrant and rally at DS9. Yes, Lovak is a changing, and he's giving the orders to make a stand, but Tain is shown here to be a complete idiot. It also completely undermines all of the tension & drama they've been building.
Of course, the writers could've just had them be in firing range already which would've fixed it... but the way this is written it always infuriated me; because we are told over and over that these people are the best and brightest, and then as soon as something goes awry, they turn into mentally-handicapped idiots who might as well be banging their heads on the keyboards drooling.
Also... the Cardassians & Romulans never fire back... at least in the initial battle scenes. :-/
Also made no sense that the Jem'Hadar would be chasing the Runabout or shooting at it; that might be the most egregious thing in maybe the whole series. Lovak, a Founder, beamed onto one of the Dominion ships after giving Odo the Runabout. He would have ordered them to explicitly NOT shoot it, and not even shoot the Romulan flagship until they left. Hell, the Jem'Hadar probably would have escorted the Runabout back to DS9. I actually think that's a way better ending and way scarier... this whole fleet goes through the wormhole, and all that comes back out is the Runabout, with Garak alone to tell the tale.
Yeah, it's insane that the only firing is coming from Jemmie bugs.
special effects budget. also ever seen a warbird fire anywhere but from the front?
The defiant looks like silpeed
Some of the dialogue and some scenes were cut out of this clip.
Questions , what are you doing here, what is your goal , where your bases located
why didn't they warp the f out of there the moment they saw 150 ships approaching?
can't go to warp inside a nebula
@Ganda Gandara the nebula was all around them. the planet was in the middle of the nebula
The ships were probably coming from pretty much all sides. No matter what angle you tried to warp your way out, you'd get chased by at least half a dozen Jem'Hadar ships no matter what.
@Ganda Gandara I say that's a production error. Cause it makes so much more sense for them to be firing on them, only for it to not do much since the Jem'Hadar's shields are not getting bypassed like theirs are.
@Ganda Gandara Not really. The Odyssey was up against 3 or so ships.
Here, the 20 coalition ships are up against *one hundred and fifty* Jem'Hadar ships. 150!! That's like 7 and a half enemies per ship, it's honestly overkill!
Why are Admiral Hayes and Seska Romulans