It drives me nuts whenever I see someone ask "is it counterbored" on a rifle that's not super accurate to begin with. It's easy to tell someone is a newbie that's trying to pretend they know what they are talking about when that question pops up, because frankly you're not going to be hitting the hairs off a fly's ass at 300yards with or without the counterbore.. It's not a bad thing. For real collectors/reasonable shooters, it shouldn't matter. I've never turned down a single rifle because it's been counter bored.
Agreed. If I want a guaranteed good shooter, counter bore will seal the deal for me. Sometimes it does work to one's advantage though if you get that old timer who believes it. "$650 for this Refurbished M44. I know what I got sonny." "Oh yeah? Were you aware that it's counterbored?" "Ah, shit, alright $100 because it's Turked."
Been saying the same for years, too on the Boards. I_C maybe you have seen me over these years. Have had some wonderful counterbored shooters over the years and many Russian Mosins that have passed through.
Several of my mosins are counter bored, and I got them cheaper because of it, some sellers think that counter bore=poor condition. not so much anymore though.
My 91-30 which IS counter-bored shoots VERY accurately. I have also heard that it was done to assist soldiers to get the cleaning tools into the barrel end easier to better facilitate cleaning and prevent excess wear and crown damage FROM struggling to insert the tool and rod. Have you heard this?
Sir, I have to say THANK you for posting this.. I am just about to pick up a sporterized 1942 BSA built No. 4 Mk.1 with what looks like a relatively good bore, with rifling for about and inch or two down from the crown thats pretty fried.. as in.. just faint whisps of rifling left. Possibly from segmented steel cleaning rods. I have scoured the internet on every forum looking for information about counter boring an Enfield, because I think it's a relatively simple thing my local smith could do if my rifle keyholes or groups like a shotgun. Barely anyone knows anything.. you just do not see very man counter bored Enfields, lots of Mosins, but just not Enfields apparently.. I was at kind of a loss, but then I see this video posted 1 DAY AGO! Couldn't thank you more! you really helped a guy like me out with this.
@@MikeB128 honestly, i dont see the reason why would someone counterbore a muzzle in US. In Russia we have strict regulations regarding length of the barell and number of operations you can do with your firearm by yourself. In this case, or in a field service point counterboring is good because it is not obviously visible and is very fast. But in US you are permitted to do whatever you want to. To cut is always a better option, but more time consuming one. It is always easier to make a clear muzzle crown on a cut barrell.
We've been counterboring large caliber guns for a century at least to prevent torque and blast forces from cracking thin muzzles. You can see this on the lawn ornaments and gate guards at military bases, county courthouses, and veterans organizations.
I cut my Mosin Nagant barrel down back behind the front sight to remove the counter-bored section entirely and recrowned the barrel there. This greatly improved the accuracy of my rifle and I have been very pleased with the accuracy since doing that.
Dept. of the Army Tech manual TM9-1276/TO39A-5AD-2 Cal. .30 Carbines M1, M1A1, M2 and M3 Feb 1953. pg. 108, fig. 19...there is an excellent picture of an M1 carbine muzzle with the standard counterbore required on all carbines submitted to depot maintenance for rework. It is a GRADUAL diminishing of lands beginning about 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the muzzle and not only improves accuracy but prevents damage to the lands from impact and steel cleaning rods. Well worth the modification on service weapons and revolvers, which require bore cleaning from the muzzle.
My Finn m28 has a countetbore thing is an amazing shooter it's bore is a mirror and rifling is very strong it's about 1.7 inches down the barrel I was a little scared to get it.
I have an 1893 Spanish Mauser and my shots are all over the place at 50 yards and just found out about counter boring. I can see rifling to the end so maybe I just need an inch or less of counter boring to improve it. Thanks for the video.
Your camera really does focus nice on those crowns to see the different examples you showed. Have seen some deep Mosin counterbores before. I never knew that about the Mas rifle they recessed the crown like that. Nice vid, I agree with Mosin Crate, too. Counterboring shouldn't be scoffed at. The rifles needed it! I had a Finn P26 or 27 once upon a time that was actually counterbored. Interesting, since it was a relined barrel. But a great shooter on 300 meter steel! Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
Thanks Mike 😀 . We also like to say sewer pipe bores. I think counterboring was also done so rifles would last a lil' longer until they were rebarreled. Unfortunately a lot of rifles were put into storage and exported to the surplus market before they were rearsenaled.
A damaged muzzle crown does not seal/perform resulting in the same precession to the projectile every time one goes past it. Or if gasses escape from the projectile's side. Precession is a change in the orientation of the rotational axis of a rotating body. In an appropriate reference frame it can be defined as a change in the first Euler angle, whereas the third Euler angle defines the rotation itself. In slo-mo photography a damaged crown shows gases escaping from the muzzle before the bullet does.
With my 1916 SMLE I bought a box of Remington .303 ammo & to check the barrel after visual inspection , which looked very good , I placed the bullet in the barrel & basically went up to the case neck . I did also have some PPU .303 ammo , I tried that and had better results . I mic’d the bullets Remington was around .308 -.310 . The PPU was .311-.312 . Sent the box back to Remington because I thought the bullets were not correct size . They said yes they are the correct nominal size . I shoot the PPU ammo
And you have just hit on one of the two problems Lee Enfield shooters have with ammunition - wrong sized bullets (Carcanos have this in spades). Incorrectly made cases are also common - if you have a rim lock on a Lee Enfield, it isn't a problem with the rifle, it is a problem with the ammunition lacking the specified chamfer on the rims. That is why SMLE shooters scratch round for military brass to use for reloading.
So if we have a rifle that isn’t counterbored but really needs it, we can find a gunsmith who can do it? Or does it have to go back to like a manufacturer for it
It would be interesting to talk about the condition of barrel rifling on surplus rifles, and how that, as well as the size of modern day projectiles can affect accuracy.
As always great video Mike. I have recently got into milsurps. So would a rifle that has been counter bored be potential worth less or is it beauty or counter boring is in the eye of the beholder?
Does it affect the resale/collectors value depending on the rifle though? could it not? for example a marked K98K, if it were counter bored would probably be worth less as a collectors gun than one that was not? Personally I wouldn't give a crap because I don't own guns like that, I own examples of rifles that are similar in type or design so I can experience and enjoy the rifles of that period, ie I don't have a german K98, but I do have a Yugoslavian M48 (which to me is pretty cool coming from a country that basically no longer exists in modern history) I do appreciate the info; I might have to look harder at counterbored rifles.
Thank you very much for the info Mike I am getting started into collecting Older guns still trying to get my first one. Would it be possible just to make a whole new barrel it should be that expensive if you're doing does a metal rod thats twist right ?
The Mas-36's weren't all counter bored, they started doing that... in 1948 IIRC, and any rifle that had it's barrel replaced in refurbishment after '48 got the new counterbored barrel. I've a 1945 made MAS-36 that isn't counter bored.
Probably not. I tried something, and got a bunch of the modern "gun community" trolling and such. Not what I wanted to do on my channel, so I'll probably just stick with "boring" stuff like this.
That explains why my M38 mosin has strong rifling when I shine a light down it but it swallows the bullet. Thanks Mike
Fins probably used better quality steel though i have 1968 m39 . Its newer but its a sneak rifle so it probably has alot of use
It drives me nuts whenever I see someone ask "is it counterbored" on a rifle that's not super accurate to begin with. It's easy to tell someone is a newbie that's trying to pretend they know what they are talking about when that question pops up, because frankly you're not going to be hitting the hairs off a fly's ass at 300yards with or without the counterbore.. It's not a bad thing. For real collectors/reasonable shooters, it shouldn't matter. I've never turned down a single rifle because it's been counter bored.
Agreed. If I want a guaranteed good shooter, counter bore will seal the deal for me. Sometimes it does work to one's advantage though if you get that old timer who believes it. "$650 for this Refurbished M44. I know what I got sonny." "Oh yeah? Were you aware that it's counterbored?" "Ah, shit, alright $100 because it's Turked."
Been saying the same for years, too on the Boards. I_C maybe you have seen me over these years. Have had some wonderful counterbored shooters over the years and many Russian Mosins that have passed through.
Several of my mosins are counter bored, and I got them cheaper because of it, some sellers think that counter bore=poor condition. not so much anymore though.
Yep- "well this XXX service rifle built in 1938 is counter-bored and will loose its accuracy at 400+ yards".......oh no whatever will you do
Hey its the mosin crate in this joint 👋👋👋
I have a mosin m44 that's counterbored and it makes a really good shooter, probably my favorite gun at the range
My 91-30 which IS counter-bored shoots VERY accurately. I have also heard that it was done to assist soldiers to get the cleaning tools into the barrel end easier to better facilitate cleaning and prevent excess wear and crown damage FROM struggling to insert the tool and rod. Have you heard this?
Sir, I have to say THANK you for posting this.. I am just about to pick up a sporterized 1942 BSA built No. 4 Mk.1 with what looks like a relatively good bore, with rifling for about and inch or two down from the crown thats pretty fried.. as in.. just faint whisps of rifling left. Possibly from segmented steel cleaning rods. I have scoured the internet on every forum looking for information about counter boring an Enfield, because I think it's a relatively simple thing my local smith could do if my rifle keyholes or groups like a shotgun. Barely anyone knows anything.. you just do not see very man counter bored Enfields, lots of Mosins, but just not Enfields apparently.. I was at kind of a loss, but then I see this video posted 1 DAY AGO! Couldn't thank you more! you really helped a guy like me out with this.
According to soviet army repair manual the counterboring distance for long Mosin rifles is upto 45mm and upto 25mm for M44 carbine.
I've seen some 91/30s that were at the maximum of the 45mm regulations :)
@@MikeB128 honestly, i dont see the reason why would someone counterbore a muzzle in US. In Russia we have strict regulations regarding length of the barell and number of operations you can do with your firearm by yourself. In this case, or in a field service point counterboring is good because it is not obviously visible and is very fast. But in US you are permitted to do whatever you want to. To cut is always a better option, but more time consuming one. It is always easier to make a clear muzzle crown on a cut barrell.
@@PetarKozic-sl2cv THey didn't counterbore them here.....they were counterbored in Ukraine or the USSR during refurbishment.......
I've got a counter-bored 91/30 that is very accurate.
I've got a counter-bored M44 that is not.
If you have one, shoot it and find out.
We've been counterboring large caliber guns for a century at least to prevent torque and blast forces from cracking thin muzzles. You can see this on the lawn ornaments and gate guards at military bases, county courthouses, and veterans organizations.
I cut my Mosin Nagant barrel down back behind the front sight to remove the counter-bored section entirely and recrowned the barrel there. This greatly improved the accuracy of my rifle and I have been very pleased with the accuracy since doing that.
Dept. of the Army Tech manual TM9-1276/TO39A-5AD-2 Cal. .30 Carbines M1, M1A1, M2 and M3 Feb 1953. pg. 108, fig. 19...there is an excellent picture of an M1 carbine muzzle with the standard counterbore required on all carbines submitted to depot maintenance for rework. It is a GRADUAL diminishing of lands beginning about 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the muzzle and not only improves accuracy but prevents damage to the lands from impact and steel cleaning rods. Well worth the modification on service weapons and revolvers, which require bore cleaning from the muzzle.
My Finn m28 has a countetbore thing is an amazing shooter it's bore is a mirror and rifling is very strong it's about 1.7 inches down the barrel I was a little scared to get it.
I have an 1893 Spanish Mauser and my shots are all over the place at 50 yards and just found out about counter boring. I can see rifling to the end so maybe I just need an inch or less of counter boring to improve it. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for this video. I read so many times that word with milsurp rifles, and I didnt knew what it was.
Your camera really does focus nice on those crowns to see the different examples you showed. Have seen some deep Mosin counterbores before. I never knew that about the Mas rifle they recessed the crown like that. Nice vid, I agree with Mosin Crate, too. Counterboring shouldn't be scoffed at. The rifles needed it! I had a Finn P26 or 27 once upon a time that was actually counterbored. Interesting, since it was a relined barrel. But a great shooter on 300 meter steel! Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
Thanks Mike 😀 . We also like to say sewer pipe bores. I think counterboring was also done so rifles would last a lil' longer until they were rebarreled. Unfortunately a lot of rifles were put into storage and exported to the surplus market before they were rearsenaled.
A damaged muzzle crown does not seal/perform resulting in the same precession to the projectile every time one goes past it. Or if gasses escape from the projectile's side. Precession is a change in the orientation of the rotational axis of a rotating body. In an appropriate reference frame it can be defined as a change in the first Euler angle, whereas the third Euler angle defines the rotation itself. In slo-mo photography a damaged crown shows gases escaping from the muzzle before the bullet does.
Isn't that what I said in the video?
With my 1916 SMLE I bought a box of Remington .303 ammo & to check the barrel after visual inspection , which looked very good , I placed the bullet in the barrel & basically went up to the case neck . I did also have some PPU .303 ammo , I tried that and had better results . I mic’d the bullets Remington was around .308 -.310 . The PPU was .311-.312 . Sent the box back to Remington because I thought the bullets were not correct size . They said yes they are the correct nominal size . I shoot the PPU ammo
And you have just hit on one of the two problems Lee Enfield shooters have with ammunition - wrong sized bullets (Carcanos have this in spades). Incorrectly made cases are also common - if you have a rim lock on a Lee Enfield, it isn't a problem with the rifle, it is a problem with the ammunition lacking the specified chamfer on the rims. That is why SMLE shooters scratch round for military brass to use for reloading.
So if we have a rifle that isn’t counterbored but really needs it, we can find a gunsmith who can do it? Or does it have to go back to like a manufacturer for it
It would be interesting to talk about the condition of barrel rifling on surplus rifles, and how that, as well as the size of modern day projectiles can affect accuracy.
I can do the first part, but the second part consists of only a tiny amount of cases with that.
The most Mosin I seen at the gun show within the last year have been counterbored but also has the bad rifling.
As always great video Mike. I have recently got into milsurps. So would a rifle that has been counter bored be potential worth less or is it beauty or counter boring is in the eye of the beholder?
I addressed that in the video. Thanks!
@@opinionsvary You should heed your own name.......Don't spew your opinion as a "fact".
Would arsenals counter-bore damaged rifles or is that just something that happens after it has been surpluses?
Arsenal refurbishment.
@@MikeB128 I guess that's fine then. I would vein that on the same level as the Fins polishing all the metal on metal contact points on a Mosin bolt.
Mine doesnt swallow a bullet but the rifling is really nice so I guess I lucked out. It only goes down to the fattest part of the bullet.
most m38 mosin nagants are counterbored. Mine is but it has a semi shiny bore. Accurate shooter for a mosin can’t complain.
Good info thank you have a great day.
Does it affect the resale/collectors value depending on the rifle though? could it not? for example a marked K98K, if it were counter bored would probably be worth less as a collectors gun than one that was not?
Personally I wouldn't give a crap because I don't own guns like that, I own examples of rifles that are similar in type or design so I can experience and enjoy the rifles of that period, ie I don't have a german K98, but I do have a Yugoslavian M48 (which to me is pretty cool coming from a country that basically no longer exists in modern history)
I do appreciate the info; I might have to look harder at counterbored rifles.
Had a hart attack when i bought my first mosin and it failed the bullet test so badly. Then i found out it was counter bored.
Thank you very much for the info Mike I am getting started into collecting Older guns still trying to get my first one. Would it be possible just to make a whole new barrel it should be that expensive if you're doing does a metal rod thats twist right ?
So which rifle would be best for trickshotting?
I can’t wait for that smle video good work
The Mas-36's weren't all counter bored, they started doing that... in 1948 IIRC, and any rifle that had it's barrel replaced in refurbishment after '48 got the new counterbored barrel. I've a 1945 made MAS-36 that isn't counter bored.
Nick Romanov , Counter bored to accommodate rifle grenades.
I need 9000000 of those to buy ok
Whenever I need a fun to watch firearm-related video, this channel is my go to. This video seems like it will be cool!
When will u make more range ninja videos ? I really enjoyed the stories.
Probably not. I tried something, and got a bunch of the modern "gun community" trolling and such. Not what I wanted to do on my channel, so I'll probably just stick with "boring" stuff like this.
Where's the flippy thing that goes up.
Does anyone know who can do this service for a mosin nagant i have .or if i can do my self
Google....Is your friend...
bmoe sucka if you don’t know the answer to that question please do not attempt to do it yourself
I had a mosin recrown into a carbine length accurately kills deer no problem 100$ rifle compared to a 700$ one
I would rather have a gun with counter-bored than one with a shot-out barrel.
jesus mike that mosin is so loose its like throwing hotdogs down a hallway if it was a woman she would say "Don't worry baby Im a virgin"
nice, early
Wow, when are you going to start handing out autographs?
E