Example of double bind: I was 13 and my mother was angry with her boyfriend. We had very little money so I knew having a car was a luxury, so I knew when my mother told me to put sugar in the gas tank so her boyfriend wouldn’t have a car either, the request was insane. I also knew if I didn’t my life would be a worse hell. So I was damned if I did and damned if I didn’t. I chose not to and let the insanity blow over. I really don’t know how I survived. 71 now and continue to heal and recover.
That's an utterly repulsive request to ask of ANYONE, let alone a child who's pressured to obey! Which is exactly why narcissists are as toxic and harmful as they are, of course, but I just can't seem to acclimate myself to a reality where people like this exist and can never make myself anticipate the depravity they're willing to sink to, which means I still manage to be shocked and appalled by these things every time! I'm so sorry you didn't have the parent you deserved and were forced to navigate this growing up!
Such a familiar memory. I was so little maybe six or seven and the phone rang and my mom asked me to answer the phone and of course I did and the person on the other end asked for her and told me what her name was and so I told my mom, Jean is on the phone for you and I guess my mom didn’t want to talk to her because she waved her hands like tell her I’m not here. I was so naïve and innocent. I didn’t even know what that gesture meant because I couldn’t understand the foundation of the lie I mean, that woman was her friend so I just handed her the phone and told the caller to hold on here she is. I got the shit beat out of me and was grounded for weeks for “not obeying”
Having a narcissistic parent is one of the hardest things for anyone to have. They never change and nothing is there fault. They isolate you from everyone telling people lies so they have this terrible image of you while they show "fake" kindness to others but not to there own flesh and blood. (All about imagine) there will be a escape goat who gets all the bad and then theres the golden child thats the one whos very similar to the narcissistic parent. They cant do no wrong even when they do. Its a very lonely life to have but just remember you are strong and blood doesn't mean family❤
Guilting, shaming… my entire childhood. The mother tried to continue this for many years after, finally discarding me. I do battle this Inner voice that when anything is off it is my fault. It has to be because it can’t be anybody else’s fault. I’m 65. Intellectually I know this is not true but y know…
I'm so scared to be my parents 😢 I have twins girl they are 16 now ❤ I tell them they are the best things ever happened to me , because I get to give the LOVE I never got . Also I tell them , please please tell me if you feel that your emotional needs are not met. You girls are so important to me and I dont want to create emotional damaged. 😢 They tell me they always felt love and safe with me and dad ❤
I, too have found victory in the relationships I have with my daughters. I promised myself at age 16 or 17 that if I ever had a child, they would never go a single day wondering if they were loved. They both tell me I'm a good mom and that they love me.
Number 5 really hit home - "neurotically naive". It explains why my mother, raised by narcissistic parents, all through her life, told stories about being beaten with a wooden spoon etc. from the age of 2, but at the same time insisted on her firm belief that her parents "really loved" her. She had to tell herself that. She would have been resistent to therapy, and when (as a teenager) I pointed out to her that there was a discrepancy in her story, she would be livid and punish me for trying to destroy her "happy childhood". Very sick, I know. She had full-blown NPD. I as her daughter, luckily did not go that route, and to this day I wonder why not (both my siblings are narcissists), but I was damaged in my own way. Not naive in every regard, by far not, but falling for narcissists all my life. Always wondered about that. Point number 5 makes it very clear. I was "magically" drawn to narcissists, and fell in the same trap over and over again. Until I understood with the help of therapy to tell myself, every time I felt attracted to someone, would feel that strong pull, "probably a narcissist, go slow - or better: RUN".
I read somewhere that a sign of NPD is the insistence that one had an idyllic childhood. It makes so much sense now. I didn't believe that, but I did keep a journal which was written in a way that made me seem happy-go-lucky and devil-may-care and "shrug...oh well!" about situations that I remember feeling very angry, put out, upset by and that put me into danger. It's a coping mechanism. One sign of betrayal trauma is a 'refusal to see anything bad about the person' who betrayed you. It's the mind's way of coping and somehow getting through life.
@@Hawaiiansky11 Yes, it's great to have a journal where you can still get into the skin of that child that you were. Very helpful! And how many people claim that they had "a wonderful childhood." I always second-guess it, because I see the fear in their eyes when I mention having been in therapy because of my family background. It's scary as hell for them! And as Richard shows so clearly, their childlike clinging to their version of reality makes it impossible for them to see what else might be wrong in the world, or with authorities in general. I see that in people all the time. And I have often told myself, that they just can't, they can't face it or even fathom it, because they still have not dealt with their childhood. So many people are stuck in their childhood. There is a strong connection.
@@tally551 So you must know what I mean. Facination with narcissists in all other places too, all my life. And not just me, most of society. I just dove into the biography of Alain Delon (he passed away a week ago), reading his son Anthony`s account of his childhood, "Entre chien et loup". Not that it should be surprising, since Delon was an expert in playing cold and cruel, no sadistic characters (his trademark), looking smashing at the same time, but there are so many examples, big and small, of a narcissistic "personality style", it makes your skin crawl. Anthony, severely traumatized from having Alain as a father, must have had therapy, or he would not be able to describe it so well.
@@troll23-troll23 yes, for years I was always interested in cult leaders and why people followed them, what caused them to become cult leaders... NPD. I Seem to be attracted to NP types. It's only through therapy that ive been able to recognise my role in our narcissistic family cult. The problem I now have is when I try and apologise to family members for the damage I did with my role... Some of them act like I'm treating them like "the Ill/problem child" which has been my role the last 10 years even though I'm an adult. My family even got me diagnosed with BPD but two clinic psychologist who have given me therapy have gone "I can't see the BPD, but I can see the PTSD from EARLY childhood." Took me years to figure out I'm only "emotionally unstable" around my family. And I certainly do not want another partner who does the same role as my family. If I wanted to be degraded and my needs ignored I can go spend time with my parents. 😂 But yes I think we do seek words and ways to explain what we are going through and it helps to have support and break out into a gentle and healthy environment once we finally know we are in an abusive situation.
Pete walker saved my life! If you haven't read his book do so. I had 2 narc parents. 1 sadistic, the other ambi covert/overt depending on the audience. Added Neurotic naivete is an incredibly useful concept. Thank you for this language. So helpful! Are people raised in loving homes also in danger of not being good at distinguishing selfishness and exploitative behavior in others?
Yes. Correct and so many go through their entire life without any therapists nor even being aware that they need therapy, just existing and accepting their lot...
Impact on CHILDREN = central authorities and gov bodies which exist to "protect" children need to be trained on this because they are currently clueless. Their awareness and knowledge is zero.
@@kriskairn3715Hiiiii!!!! That’s totally me………….. but ill cope… someway somehow……. and one day ill surely be back on therapy… meanwhile… adhd hsp npd traits and codependent most of my Life……. Yyyyeeiiiiiiiiii……… At least there’s awareness as my lightly narc mother would say……. 🫂🙏🏻❣️
I agree from having a narc mom, 2 ex husband's and 1 ex partner. I have ibs, insomnia, fybromyalgia from the physical beating as a child and the stress exs gave me.
Neurotically naive... that is a good name. I have always described it as a state where I would walk forward into the darkness while closing my eyes to everything around me. If I died, I died. I had to not know and not care.
Knowing the truth ( admitting the truth) about both parents being "toxic" and their abuse ..there was always the threat of " going into a naughty children's home" where all the bad ungrateful children get sent to " . So , soldier on blindly that's how it was..
I also have CFS which I have now read is through trauma. I am doing work on myself to deal the past trauma to heal CFS. Good luck to you too may you recover quickly
Agree ‘neurotic naivety’…I purposely cultivated naivety in order to offset the calculated sabotaging of my narcissistic father. Because he always assigned me with dark motives, I thought by never assuming the worst and only assuming about the good would redress this balance. We all know how this goes in reality
You had me at "neurotically naive." I may have an additional 'layer' because of a legitimate amnesia from series of non-stop trauma revolving around a relationship with someone my malignant narcissist mother hated (because he loved and validated me, her SG and to whom I was committed, a violation of her plan to dress me up and live her own sexuality vicariously through me by forcing me to 'play the field' - which I hated). Fighting against her only caused me more trauma, so eventually I did what we all do. I gave in. I froze. I put on a happy face and became toxically positive, with a roiling tidal wave of blind rage right behind my facade. So there is an additional layer of a frantic life-long subconscious effort to find that person in others, and make them 'become' him - without realizing I was doing it. That contributed heavily to my refusal to see red flags or abusive / exploitative behavior in partners and friends...because any little thing they said or did or a personality quirk or an action they took that reminded me of the mysterious 'him' made me certain I had finally found 'him.' What's sad is that I did come across him a few times over the years. I hadn't known or remembered that he suffered severe trauma from a narcissistic father, so didn't understand his frustration with the fact that I had no memory of any kind of a romantic relationship with him, remembering him only as a crush. He would have liked to have gotten back with me, and I would have been thrilled beyond measure to get with him, but because I could not remember him, and there were some other ugly things that happened to him that I would have had to remember to make sense of it all --I'm certain he was afraid that had I remembered the bad with the good, I would have rejected and hated him. He went home to God in 2017 . My mother went back to where she came from , 9 months later in 2018. Over the years, I tried to look him up but never could find anything. In 2022, I attempted again and found his obituary and several photos his children put online of him. Then, the memories began resurfacing. I had believed myself healed and 'better' over the past decade and a half, but this was a doozy. It both answered every question I've ever had about my life, why I've made the decisions I have and how I managed to mess myself over every chance I got, and also has put me in what seems to be a perpetual state of grief. I miss the man I love and I seethe at the life that was stolen from me and him. I wonder why I'm here, as it seems a life filled with misery, pain and loss. I've gone NC with my former "family" because of their refusal to even entertain that I just might be telling the truth. I have whittled my friendships down to 4 individuals who have shown me compassion, understanding, validation and acceptance--all things I never got from people who claimed to love me.
Thank you! As an adult I’ve always noticed and wondered how could I be so naive and blind given my childhood and adolescence and parents etc? it is so validating this whole video and will help me know what to work on in therapy and be mindful of. All of this can be overwhelming at times but I appreciate you Mr. Grannon! Truly!
This is the first time I have heard about neurotic naivety and it explains everything about who I am. I’m 50 and have known for 4 years now that my father is a malignant narcissist and I am the scapegoat but just hearing this is hugely beneficial to my healing. Thank you Richard 🙏🏻 So grateful.
Yes many illness from Narcissistic parental abuse, I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and auto immune disorders. Do an ACE (Adverse Childhood Experience) check with your doctor.
@@eveningprimrose3088 That's why you can take your doctor the test/paperwork/form so that he knows, its good to inform the medical proffession of this...some doctors are aware such as those in 'autoimmunity issues.
Rich...the question and answers have so much more value to people. We live in world of broken people so we need people to just tell the truth no one wants to hear...keep doing what you're doing :)
When videos about narcissistic parents really hit home and your heart physically hurts for yourself and for your parent because you know they've been through some shite too.
Oh yes, there is pain there, whether they admit it or not. L O V E and acceptance are my boundaries. This is the sort of person I want to be. I went on a tangent and not sure if I aligned with your comment but want to endorse your stance anyway. It's a good one.
@@diilouise Whenever my mother deeply offends my sense of right and wrong, I try to remember what I've learned about the psyche of these people and how they got that way, and remind myself that no one would chose that if there was a choice. But it's a shame the damage they do.
@Hawaiiansky11 this can be true. My hubby and I decided long ago to be, what we call, transition people. We didn't want to pass onto our kids stuff that we thought was crappy for them. Well, imperfectly, that is what we continue to do, as best we can. It is not easy, but it is worthwhile.
I'm terrified of the ex turning our little one into him. I cannot stand him having any influence over her. She's already displaying people pleasing and is questioning herself and she's bloody 4 years old. I recognise in her what her dad did to me and how I reacted and she's doing the same thing. I deteste that thing that classes itself as her dad. She's stuck with a full family of them.
Just keep doing your part, thats all you can do❤ and never talk crappy, but don't lie [kids see everything!] about the ex, and let her see how her behaviors & words effect you: cry! Say how you feel. Let her hear that and grow a conscience thru loving you. ♡
I have learned from my deep study of narcissism, that both of my parents are narcissistic, possibly NPD with my mother, and as have been almost all of my romantic partners. I hit 7/7 on the list as well, including a tendency to narcissistic behaviors when I am wronged or pushed to my limit. I would probably be a lot worse if not for years of Buddhism practice, years of therapy, and years of personal development. I've tried to be a better person continously, but have still done some monumentally selfish and stupid things motivated by pain and shame. I'm more keen to narcissistic behaviors now, even more to my own.
The expression you make at 39:06 is exactly like the ones my narcissist would make. He'd mimic these faces, tell me that's how I was acting, and say it made me look really weird. Afterward, he'd claim he was genuinely worried about me.
This is the best explanation I have seen so far of Narcissistic Parents. Especially emotional incest. I get a lot of slack when I use that term when explaining a situation I lived the last decade. Thank you for continuing to educate naive minds.
1:02:22 Part of the Story.. BEING (human BEING vs. human DOING) I never thought about exercising type of self-care as form of spirituality. WOW I guilted and come from a family that viewed exercising as for people with "free time" and occasionally shamed me as being vain for going for a walk 😢
The MAIN characteristic of NPDs, IMO is JEALOUSY / COVETOUSNESS. I have always struggled with my weight and used gaining weight as a coping mechanism to passively keep men from finding me attractive, while also desiring the appearance of being healthy and attractive. I remember when I graduated college being as close to my ideal weight as I'd been since 9th grade (5'5" and 125-130 lbs). BOTH of my parents (mother narc, father enabler / narc Jr) told me that I looked sick, anorexic and that I needed to eat. Nobody - not a single 'family' member complimented my appearance or the hard work it took to look and be healthy - instead, i was told that there was something 'wrong with' me for it. P.S. After I had a child, my 300+ lb narc mother tried giving me (140-160 lbs at the time) advice on how to lose my baby weight. That's some hutzpah.
The only way to get over narcissistic abuse is to minimize "Dependency & Reliance" on others and to increase "Independence & Self-Reliance". Hence why "Dependency & Reliance" is designated as one of the 10-Enemies of Self-Improvement in Theory of Self-Relativity, and why "Independence and Self-Reliance" is designated as one of the 10-Commandments for self-improvement in Self-Relativity.
Hello Richard, I thanked you a couple of times a few years back because you were one of the top people I found extremely helpful in my attempts to understand narcissism and my tendencies to 'supply' them. Bloody hell so far this message is dull as ditchwater, oops! Anyway, I didn't see this live, but it has been good to top up the things I struggled so hard to grasp. I also love your sudden reactions of surprise, curiosity, and most of all Liverpool humour. (Hope you don't mind that generalisation!), but I'm from a whole family of Scousers, (the only one born down south!). I also like your obvious knowledge and ease of using it. And that you're quite strict and can call people like me out and kinda call me a dick. I got to the stage where I have learned to lay down barriers in a calm way, (not necessarily calm in my head, but able to seem calm, controlled, and stick to it). I grieve for all the time I've spent fucking myself up or being fucked up by narcissists. "Friends", partners, my mum. I have gone no contact with certain people, but I still struggle with guilt when I literally can't deal with Mum, and even when I think I might be strong enough to see her or phone her, I have to build myself up to it as if she was an enemy. She keeps saying she accepts my boundaries but then immediately breaches them. I limit contact, but Mothers are culturally like angels so I feel guilty. However I know I am looking after myself. Xxx sorry Richard way too long message sorry. Sorry. X
You've opened my eyes to some dark dark truths. About myself and my childhood. Not really sure if i should be thrashing you or not, but honestly, thank you. Accepting the truth is the first step to healing. So yes, thank you for that truth.
Thank you Richard for this video. All this is way too familiar I was shamed i got kidney failure which my dad saw as taking my mums attention away and used fawning a lot of people pleasing and been in abusive relationships as my boundaries aren't good I'm trying to work on these things but it's difficult as a bereaved mum most things are a struggle but my little boy was such an Amazingly Brave little boy and showed me so much I'd as you say been blind to 💙👣🕊
Thank you, among the best you have done !!! It takes a lot of yrs to really come to terms and understand, all this, because of all the confusing messages one gets from parents-friends-societies changes (who did not know better back then, with no good education on life, or raising real kids) Right now, I have been, since some yrs, living close to some persons, or personas, which has given me such clear views of the inwoved patterns, in me, in those I encounter, and it is so freeing of all bs, to be able to see, and just let go, and then I do not mean, just go to cut off, or no contact. That is no good, one has to see, whats not been seen before, and daring to stay in it. Trained as a I have been to be as fostered into. Year after year, some relief, in what is this, what have I been in a sort of trance. Not transformingly good, if it is to heavy to take, some days I just have to have some Breathing-space from all of it, and just be quiet, and not in contact with anything outside of me. Just cutting off, do it really teach us anything=? Good question I believe, in conquering our inner fears, as much possible, with space and freedom to find whats really me in it. I do breathing, and dance as much as I can, meditate when possible, and am no longer afraid of whats in me, more afraid of people, who have no idea. The society I grow in, all kids in the block knew each others then, in some, way, also parents knew, and we all had some healthy, way of seeing all kids as ours, today, it has developed, into some high class blocks, and worsening, to go between the classes, I do not think thats good at all, it is like here the bad people are, them we do not talk to, cause "youuu are not worthy" its awful to see that growing. With money/status, or no money/status, as a mark on where we belong. Awful. The cutting off, cancel-things, have done a lot of damage, and no more understanding between us all. People, not beeing daring to "touch" any hard or soft stuff any longer, not able to understand each other, at all, no willingness left even, from both angles, when societies, go into too much of them there, me here. Cutting off, for me its some sort of avoiding, or just some other type of cancel-culture phenomena. Of course one should not stay, to the degree, where, one self go totally under, but bit for bit, but daring to meet the troubles, and the patterns in any relationship, friends or foes, or family, gets clearer, and everyones patterning too. If one just avoid/cutoff, one cant see, and when not seeing them, "One cant Unlearn whats been Learnt" ;) So one little bit, of training to cope is better, new ways of training to see. With all the body in it. All this, and meditation, mindfulness, body consciousness, should be taught in schools, early and deeper, in higher age, also to parents, before having kids.
I've been neglected and abused by my parents, and others, my entire life. Why did my brother end up narcissistic, when I became more empathic? Yes, he was the Golden Child....I was the scapegoat.
Thank you so much Richard, I am grateful for your work and expertise. 1:01:30 ❤ I actually had that thought in 2019 when I wanted out of the 🌎 or no longer exist. I would never destroy someone's 🎨 art, so who am I to destroy the Creator's? "I will give thanks to You, because I am awesomely and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well." Kind David Psalms 139:14
"I would never destroy someone's art, so who am I to destroy the Creator's? " - I love this!! Thank you for sharing!! More days than not, I wish to be removed from this wicked world. Largely because that's where the Man I Loved is, but also because I'm so sick of being targeted by exploiters and users! I'd rather be a hermit.
I think me, others and humanity as a collective is all learning the lesson of boundaries. I think we are learning how vital boundaries are for unconditional love to evolve. Every dysfunction and pain in human psyche is because someone violated our boundaries or we are violating other's boundaries because we haven't learned to set boundaries within ourselves. It's a chaotic process but going in the right direction. As I learn to set boundaries, for the first time in my life stress is leaving my body, addictions are dissipating and body/mind is willing for further healing. ❤️ I thank the universe for helping me until here and helping all of us find relief and peace. May us all be blessed.
Hi Richard thank you for educating me.Only last few months had an issue with an adult son.Did not know the word narc.Only to realize not learning however was always ahead..Now in the process of having him remoe from my home.His dad is pure narc.Only now get the whole picture .Thank you so much Richard so happen his name is your name😂❤.
last year I started writing a book starting with a trip last year and how I came to that trip. At the end of last year I was back, stopped writing and temporarily switched to audio. But yesterday I started working on the part of my past that started with my birth of course, but how transgenerational (war) trauma has been passed on and narcissism has influenced my life. Terrible and intense memories, but it now gives me the opportunity to admit smaller versions of myself. How alone I was and that the pain can now be tolerated because there is now an adult version.
4. Developing NPD is spot on. Seems to explain my older brother perfectly. My father was tyrannical with him. I think my father is a borderline psychopath but probably you could classify him as having a malicious narcissistic personality disorder based on the fact he likes to be admired. He hates weakness though and will attack anyone he sees as weak. Physically when younger or verbally when in more polite society. Of course, if someone is weak but has a brilliant skill, he will still admire that person and won't attack them (at least in the short term). A bizarre person. He used to say of my brother, 'i knew he was a gobshite from when he was 2 years old.' He literally hates anyone that says No to him, even if it's a 2 year old. My mother is a covert narcissist and extremely manipulative. She would tell my brother he was the best person in the world. My brother grew up to only want to be a world famous musician and was not bothered with other work. I was a pleaser when I was younger in order to try to stop getting hit every day, which was my main goal in life as a kid. My first goal was to move out, but at 5 I knew that was a long way away so I just wanted to stop being hit for nothing every day. I became very good at music as a kid and people would like to gather and listen to me. My older brother confessed to me a few years ago as adults that he was always super jealous of me as a kid and just wanted to be able to impress a crowd of people like I used to do. I don't even like playing music in front of people anymore and rarely do, as it always reminds me of wanting to impress my parents and not get hit. My older brother is very much a covert narcissist now. At least he married a girl with a PhD in Psychology and moved to another continent from our parents. As did I. He is still very much enmeshed while I try grey rock as much as possible and minimal contact.
Trying to split from a suspect covert narc atm. Her mother is highly grandiose, tyrannical and pedestalised both her and her brother growing up. My ex partner idolises her mother, but everyone else outside of the bubble can see there is something inherently off. Since she's moved back in with her mother, I have seen a massive personality shift in my ex, almost sociopathic. Feels as if she's back getting adoration and supply again.
I agree with this theory. Narcissistic abuse (regardless of which type of Cluster B parents deliver it, especially if it's both parents) creates more NPD or cluster B kids.
So growing up with a narcissistic parent caused a blindspot which made me allow a very toxic person in my life and staying with that person for far too long. Can one cure predator blindness?
Not quite sure (well, could be algorithms or subscriptions) but glad this video popped up today. I am pretty sure neither of my parents were narcissists ( probably had some narcisstic characteristics, more like it) I certainly developed some coping strategies that children raised by narcissists develop. The video is most useful. Especially the healing part. It is a journey, for me, not paying too much attention to things that just are. Thank you.
Predator blindness is for real. I volunteered myself for abuse. I would actually walk into it. Example. My dad would always use foul language, and say this is normal and that's how our ppl speak. So when I went to my hometown, to do a course, the guys were us8ng bad words, like eat shit, you're shit etc. And I would take it. Now when I look back. I can see everyone else eyes on me.. who wondered why I put up with it. I was literally bullied and I didn't realise it.
Richard, the sound quality on this video wasn't as good as past lives...kind of muffled and low volume. I had to turn my laptop sound all the way up, it still wasn't good unless I was sitting very close, and then on my JBL portable speaker it was kind of boomy and hard to take. Did you use to use an external mic or a different device? I missed a lot so will listen again. Good content, I've struggled with most of the impacts you listed, having a covertly narcissistic mother and controlling, bullying father, and my ex-husband was highly narcissistic, raised by a father who was highly narcissistic and a mother who was codependent and emotionally histrionic; they treated him in the opposite extremes as you mentioned.
Gosh this was me I lived with at the core all is pure, and even when the characters did play and show me their evil displays, I justified for the trauma and loss, that they must of experienced to and I wanted to fix them to😂 what a fool when the fixing was in me to do, the inner child did cry why why, do you allow this lie ! So now I only speak from truth a place that’s much better to be in the frequency ❤
I called that "Florence Nightingale syndrome." I actually thought I could cure and fix people by loving them. But I didn't understand (was brainwashed to dismiss) people who were sick, toxic and traumatized also tend to be exploitative and abusive or at least toxic.
My BIL wasn’t the “Golden Child” as such for my narcissistic MIL He was more the “Golden Goose”. At an early age he was used as “ Munchausen by proxy ” stuff he was the sickly child, the burden and coddled as a rival to his often absent father.
We four siblings lost our mom when she was 31 and the baby was born six months before her death. We had a caretaker who was very cruel during our growing up and learning . She made us the best revenge against our dad who was going on trips and never spent time together. The question is if she punched when we were not misbehaving and once it dawned on me that when we did something wrong and expected something serious and scared we would never be punished for that behavior?Is there a reason and explanation for that, I am sure it is a thing that purposely caused a false belief
At the marker 3:00 you just finished talking about narcissistic effects on children and you described 99% of the children in America's Public Schools This was incredibly helpful & you're so fuuny😂
Finally after all these years I have my freedom... What do I do with it? Well I'm currently arguing about beans... Tomorrow I should probably... Like find some matching socks... Jebus...
~ minute 58+...Also, nations (ethnic groups, societies, tribes, etc.) In millennia past were not individualistic like we are today. That is another aspect of a way of being which we cannot begin to understand today. There was a greater oneness with the natural world, but there was also a more corporate sense of existence, and this is rarely addressed. I think we are diminished very much by extreme individualism.
I see untreated undiagnosed Aspergers in parent that will have the same effect as NPD- the difference is that there will be rigid sets of routine, hyper sensitivity to food, sound, light - in addition to criticism and perfectionism found in NPD parent. The effect/byproduct of undiagnosed untreated Aspergers parent is high functioning autism in children
I would love to see the experts talk much more about the intersection of high-functioning autism and NPD!! I assume it hasn't been well figured out yet.
@@eveningprimrose3088 Yes, it is not researched at all. I see that when we are in trauma, and kind of shock - some people will react to shock by developing narcissistic defenses and rigid mentality, difficult personality as shield against the threats in life. Men are encouraged to go this path without empathy - and patriarchy is supporting men in this. Others take the other spectrum and become people pleasers as defense mechanism, and this is more healthier because we are more open to learning and modifying dysfunctional coping mechanisms.
Not necessarilly. It depends maybe how autism manifests itself and with what comerbidity in a particular person. I have been a loving parent so far. Routine is desired but difficult with adhd and cptsd.
@@FreeWorld288 Of course, no same person with autism exists - my postulate here is that abuse, narcissistic abuse in childhood, also known as ACE and ACoA will disturb the developmental stages which Piaget and Vigotsky discovered, and due to disturbance in growing up - any child brought up in narc abuse will develop traits of autism and ADHD and NPD. Likewise - I filled autism test twice. The first time I imagined myself in stress state and how I react and think when I am emotionally dysregulated. The test showed high Autism. Then I made the same test again - this time I was thinking how I behave and process reality when I feel safe, when I am happy and when there is no trauma symptoms. The same test showed no autism being present..
@@ranc1977 you mean the symptoms that people have who were raised in a dyfunctional/toxic/narcissistic environment are same/very similar to the syptoms people with ASD have? I would agree. But i I think autism is more specific concerning communication and some rigid patterns. I think I continue being rigid in any environment. What I've read recently is that children with ADHD brought up in a save environment show far less symptoms than peers who were brought up in an unhealthy place. Maybe it is similar with autism. The difference between trauma/cptsd and autism lies in childhood. Autism symptoms are present from an early age. I was drawn to things, showed little interest in role play and was stumbled by social rules etc as a toddler/child. But then again, maybe with more nurturing I would already be different as a child and show less autism symptoms. I am looking forward to more research in that area. I thought you said in your OP that the upbringing in an autistic household causes similar trauma as growing up with NPD parents.
Authorities and gov bodies need to recognise that this topic actually exists. We need to train people to identify when this is occuring and have a process to take action and save countless lives - lives that are being destroyed and ruined from the inside/core. The current setup is being run by people that are completely clueless.
When you mentioned the repetition compulsion it made me think of "iterative play," where traumatised kids will re-enact iterations of a scenario with incremental improvements in the outcome. Are we hardwired to deal with trauma in this way, and if so is this why it can be difficult to break the cycle of abuse/ return to narcissistic relationships?
I appreciate the trauma specialists who tell us that it's actually healing to fantasize about past traumas having good outcomes, rather than what really happened. Some days, I allow myself to indulge in such fantasies, as a way to calm me especially if the day has been particularly stressful.
Yeah, I think there's a difference between wallowing and healing. The proof is in the pudding. You won't know which you're doing until you get the outcome. But I believe that if you are authentic and put the work in, things get better. Appreciate your reply x
For what it's worth, I think the repetition compulsion is an attempt to make what turned out so badly the first time to come out right the second time. Like when an NPD marries someone who he turns into his mother in his mind and then discards her, successfully separating from her, which he couldn't do the first time. However, "success" doesn't seem to cure NPD, but maybe it scratches an itch, so to speak, and is therefore satisfying on some level. Having been married to an NPD, I really, really wanted it to work. I almost died trying to make it work. I too wanted to redeem my own past that was so tragic and awful, I think.
I'm wondering how to put this simply. My 7 yr old boy spends 4 days with me, and 3 with his narcissistic mother (and this was a term used by social services, saying that to give you an idea of the circumstances), whereas I was the feeding station, until she started feeding on my boy. How do I stop him becoming a servant/feeding station? I can't stop him seeing his mam, I can't stop him listening to his mam. Whilst SS were involved, he told me 'Mammy didn't tell me that lying was bad' I don't want him growing up like me or her and I am stressing about it and not being my best self?
My daughter is an extension of her paternal grandmother...my son is the scapegoat to the father and his mother, as am I presently....hence my doing my best to protect them. Hence im the bad guy....
Can't help but Wonder how much #.4 developing NPD or reactivity to over exposure to a Narcissistic Parent gets diagnosed, medicated as some transient illness while the child is guinea pigged on for being disagreeable or having behavioural issues, when infact they're suffering the effects of emotional incest among other forms of covert abuse and are voiceless, powerless to self advocate & shut down when they try?
So interesting to ponder (I am about half way through the live chat). I have recently been ill (bronchitis/pneumonia). Most people want to know 'how are you feeling?' 'Are you getting better?' 'Do you think it was caused by xyz?' Don't get me wrong, people want us to get better, but sometimes I think it is for them, so they can stop worrying - cynical me. Only two people have allowed me to be sick and expressed how sucky it must be.. Interesting.
I think that covert narcissists DO NO'T see that they developped themself narcissism because of the parents. My ex when triggered goes all black and white, no empathy, living in perceptions and not fact. He is convinced that he is fighting narcissism in the world and people not taking responsability. And yet, always blames everyone but himself for his problems, people being against him, feeding out of him, etc. The few people around him are backless people or they just don't questions his "perceptions". I tried. I almost went crazy trying. He broke me.
Any chance of a guest list for Liverpool please Richard? Or reduced door tax for old Scouse Ladies who can not afford £200 . We would only stay for 3hours as couldn't cope with a full day . Gardening is my gymnasium. Spring is here so much to do outside cheering up the neglected public spaces for free with TLC gives flowers ,colour and scent to a busy urban world. Environment is Everything for healthy minds and bodies. I often have to work at night as to avoid traffic/ fumes .
#5. Pathological Naïveté I think this can also evolve from intensely polarised, well intentioned and apparently “solution oriented” parents who amp up instrumentation through the solutions - maybe seeking to “explain” the bad situation that crosses over into parental incest, to solutions that jettison kids into adult world and expectations too soon like opening a business and placing them in positions of too much responsibility, despite age, capacity and competency. Some of the way you expressed this seems like i stramentalisation and parentification comes from a place of insight and consciousness - I’d imagine a huge percentage of it is parental pathology and a lack of insight, this perpetuating and even accelerating damage depending on the circumstances and mal informed, confused, yet well intended actions of parents. Thoughts?
Hello, there were many situations and I didn't know what was going on, and after I married a cover narcissist, I realized that my mother was a narcissist and my sisters, too, I left home at the age of 15. I was the black sheep of the family. Its was many strong situations in my childhood but there was one from many When I was 14 years old, my mother and stepfather sent me to get wine at night. Along the way, I was harassed and chased by a man from whom I ran away, but I reached the house late withthat the wine and money, all shake and cry . My mother opened the door and started shouting at me, where is my wine? She not give me chance to explain what hapening in way she trow me whit stapfather on ground in kitchen they was holding ich one my leg and they were pulling my pants down, they wanted the money for wine that I lost when I ran away from a man on the street. It was terrible, I remember that I locked myself in the toilet, that I cut my veins in the toilet, and there were countless similar situations, it was seriously terrible life experiance
If I stopped eating my pot oil, my uterus disease would floor me and I could take an ambulance every month. CB1 receptors deficiency in endocannabinoid system. 😊
I asked you this when I first met you….. you had such an ego thang still going on there. Very condescending you answered me….. like I was already to know the answer coming from you…. So happy we have both grown since then. You have a spot in my heart my friend greater daily thanks for sharing your growth 💜🧚🏻♀️💜
Example of double bind: I was 13 and my mother was angry with her boyfriend. We had very little money so I knew having a car was a luxury, so I knew when my mother told me to put sugar in the gas tank so her boyfriend wouldn’t have a car either, the request was insane. I also knew if I didn’t my life would be a worse hell. So I was damned if I did and damned if I didn’t. I chose not to and let the insanity blow over. I really don’t know how I survived. 71 now and continue to heal and recover.
❤
That's an utterly repulsive request to ask of ANYONE, let alone a child who's pressured to obey! Which is exactly why narcissists are as toxic and harmful as they are, of course, but I just can't seem to acclimate myself to a reality where people like this exist and can never make myself anticipate the depravity they're willing to sink to, which means I still manage to be shocked and appalled by these things every time! I'm so sorry you didn't have the parent you deserved and were forced to navigate this growing up!
Such a familiar memory. I was so little maybe six or seven and the phone rang and my mom asked me to answer the phone and of course I did and the person on the other end asked for her and told me what her name was and so I told my mom, Jean is on the phone for you and I guess my mom didn’t want to talk to her because she waved her hands like tell her I’m not here. I was so naïve and innocent. I didn’t even know what that gesture meant because I couldn’t understand the foundation of the lie I mean, that woman was her friend so I just handed her the phone and told the caller to hold on here she is. I got the shit beat out of me and was grounded for weeks for “not obeying”
They are utterly horrible people
Having a narcissistic parent is one of the hardest things for anyone to have. They never change and nothing is there fault. They isolate you from everyone telling people lies so they have this terrible image of you while they show "fake" kindness to others but not to there own flesh and blood. (All about imagine) there will be a escape goat who gets all the bad and then theres the golden child thats the one whos very similar to the narcissistic parent. They cant do no wrong even when they do. Its a very lonely life to have but just remember you are strong and blood doesn't mean family❤
🎯🎯🎯
100%
Thank you
Thank you ❤
💯 thank you for sharing.
I had a Narcissistic father - YOU'RE INSIGHT IS DEAD ON - vids like yours make me stronger and has made me realise how damaging he was.. thank you.
Guilting, shaming… my entire childhood. The mother tried to continue this for many years after, finally discarding me. I do battle this Inner voice that when anything is off it is my fault. It has to be because it can’t be anybody else’s fault. I’m 65. Intellectually I know this is not true but y know…
I'm so scared to be my parents 😢
I have twins girl they are 16 now ❤
I tell them they are the best things ever happened to me , because I get to give the LOVE I never got .
Also I tell them , please please tell me if you feel that your emotional needs are not met. You girls are so important to me and I dont want to create emotional damaged.
😢
They tell me they always felt love and safe with me and dad ❤
That is so beautiful I cried
Ur an amazing mom
@@Datb2 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗
Thank you sweetheart ❤❤❤❤
@@Datb2 ❤❤❤❤❤❤you are a beautiful soul ❤❤❤❤❤❤
I, too have found victory in the relationships I have with my daughters. I promised myself at age 16 or 17 that if I ever had a child, they would never go a single day wondering if they were loved. They both tell me I'm a good mom and that they love me.
Number 5 really hit home - "neurotically naive". It explains why my mother, raised by narcissistic parents, all through her life, told stories about being beaten with a wooden spoon etc. from the age of 2, but at the same time insisted on her firm belief that her parents "really loved" her. She had to tell herself that. She would have been resistent to therapy, and when (as a teenager) I pointed out to her that there was a discrepancy in her story, she would be livid and punish me for trying to destroy her "happy childhood". Very sick, I know. She had full-blown NPD. I as her daughter, luckily did not go that route, and to this day I wonder why not (both my siblings are narcissists), but I was damaged in my own way. Not naive in every regard, by far not, but falling for narcissists all my life. Always wondered about that. Point number 5 makes it very clear. I was "magically" drawn to narcissists, and fell in the same trap over and over again. Until I understood with the help of therapy to tell myself, every time I felt attracted to someone, would feel that strong pull, "probably a narcissist, go slow - or better: RUN".
I read somewhere that a sign of NPD is the insistence that one had an idyllic childhood. It makes so much sense now. I didn't believe that, but I did keep a journal which was written in a way that made me seem happy-go-lucky and devil-may-care and "shrug...oh well!" about situations that I remember feeling very angry, put out, upset by and that put me into danger.
It's a coping mechanism.
One sign of betrayal trauma is a 'refusal to see anything bad about the person' who betrayed you. It's the mind's way of coping and somehow getting through life.
@@Hawaiiansky11 Yes, it's great to have a journal where you can still get into the skin of that child that you were. Very helpful! And how many people claim that they had "a wonderful childhood." I always second-guess it, because I see the fear in their eyes when I mention having been in therapy because of my family background. It's scary as hell for them! And as Richard shows so clearly, their childlike clinging to their version of reality makes it impossible for them to see what else might be wrong in the world, or with authorities in general. I see that in people all the time. And I have often told myself, that they just can't, they can't face it or even fathom it, because they still have not dealt with their childhood. So many people are stuck in their childhood. There is a strong connection.
Oh gosh yes, the "oh this feels exciting and familiar ... I should probably run away."
@@tally551 So you must know what I mean. Facination with narcissists in all other places too, all my life. And not just me, most of society. I just dove into the biography of Alain Delon (he passed away a week ago), reading his son Anthony`s account of his childhood, "Entre chien et loup". Not that it should be surprising, since Delon was an expert in playing cold and cruel, no sadistic characters (his trademark), looking smashing at the same time, but there are so many examples, big and small, of a narcissistic "personality style", it makes your skin crawl. Anthony, severely traumatized from having Alain as a father, must have had therapy, or he would not be able to describe it so well.
@@troll23-troll23 yes, for years I was always interested in cult leaders and why people followed them, what caused them to become cult leaders... NPD. I Seem to be attracted to NP types. It's only through therapy that ive been able to recognise my role in our narcissistic family cult. The problem I now have is when I try and apologise to family members for the damage I did with my role... Some of them act like I'm treating them like "the Ill/problem child" which has been my role the last 10 years even though I'm an adult. My family even got me diagnosed with BPD but two clinic psychologist who have given me therapy have gone "I can't see the BPD, but I can see the PTSD from EARLY childhood." Took me years to figure out I'm only "emotionally unstable" around my family. And I certainly do not want another partner who does the same role as my family. If I wanted to be degraded and my needs ignored I can go spend time with my parents. 😂
But yes I think we do seek words and ways to explain what we are going through and it helps to have support and break out into a gentle and healthy environment once we finally know we are in an abusive situation.
Pete walker saved my life! If you haven't read his book do so. I had 2 narc parents. 1 sadistic, the other ambi covert/overt depending on the audience.
Added
Neurotic naivete is an incredibly useful concept. Thank you for this language. So helpful! Are people raised in loving homes also in danger of not being good at distinguishing selfishness and exploitative behavior in others?
I feel that because they are used to good parenting anything off might put them off as it’s foreign to their way of relating
Long-Term Impacts on Children
1. Fawning
2. Hyper Consciousness
3. People Pleaser
4. Developing NPD
5. Neurotically Naive
6. Codependent
7. Tyrant, Cult Seeking
Yes. Correct and so many go through their entire life without any therapists nor even being aware that they need therapy, just existing and accepting their lot...
Impact on CHILDREN = central authorities and gov bodies which exist to "protect" children need to be trained on this because they are currently clueless. Their awareness and knowledge is zero.
Conscientious**
At the same time many abusers fill these positions and are more vicious than the parents. Unfortunately.
@@kriskairn3715Hiiiii!!!! That’s totally me………….. but ill cope… someway somehow……. and one day ill surely be back on therapy… meanwhile… adhd hsp npd traits and codependent most of my Life……. Yyyyeeiiiiiiiiii……… At least there’s awareness as my lightly narc mother would say……. 🫂🙏🏻❣️
I agree from having a narc mom, 2 ex husband's and 1 ex partner. I have ibs, insomnia, fybromyalgia from the physical beating as a child and the stress exs gave me.
Odds r its u r the narc, not them
Neurotically naive... that is a good name.
I have always described it as a state where I would walk forward into the darkness while closing my eyes to everything around me. If I died, I died.
I had to not know and not care.
I’d walk into what everyone else could see as “fire” but I could only see a sunshiny beautiful day. Ugh
Knowing the truth ( admitting the truth) about both parents being "toxic" and their abuse ..there was always the threat of " going into a naughty children's home" where all the bad ungrateful children get sent to " . So , soldier on blindly that's how it was..
I developed fibromyalgia after a very abusive relationship.From what I have read chronic stress is often the trigger for developing this condition.
Very common, hope you are doing well.
I also have CFS which I have now read is through trauma. I am doing work on myself to deal the past trauma to heal CFS. Good luck to you too may you recover quickly
Yes, I do believe autoimmune issues are from servere chronic stress, over and over.
Stress depletes magnesium, b vitamins etc.
I wish I didn't feel do much compassion, empathy for my abusive, toxic, narcissistic parents. Full no contact for my wellbeing.
If you need scientific validation it's in Dr. Gabor Mate's book When the Body Says NO
My poor brother. He is the golden child and suffering
Agree ‘neurotic naivety’…I purposely cultivated naivety in order to offset the calculated sabotaging of my narcissistic father. Because he always assigned me with dark motives, I thought by never assuming the worst and only assuming about the good would redress this balance. We all know how this goes in reality
You had me at "neurotically naive."
I may have an additional 'layer' because of a legitimate amnesia from series of non-stop trauma revolving around a relationship with someone my malignant narcissist mother hated (because he loved and validated me, her SG and to whom I was committed, a violation of her plan to dress me up and live her own sexuality vicariously through me by forcing me to 'play the field' - which I hated). Fighting against her only caused me more trauma, so eventually I did what we all do. I gave in. I froze. I put on a happy face and became toxically positive, with a roiling tidal wave of blind rage right behind my facade.
So there is an additional layer of a frantic life-long subconscious effort to find that person in others, and make them 'become' him - without realizing I was doing it. That contributed heavily to my refusal to see red flags or abusive / exploitative behavior in partners and friends...because any little thing they said or did or a personality quirk or an action they took that reminded me of the mysterious 'him' made me certain I had finally found 'him.'
What's sad is that I did come across him a few times over the years. I hadn't known or remembered that he suffered severe trauma from a narcissistic father, so didn't understand his frustration with the fact that I had no memory of any kind of a romantic relationship with him, remembering him only as a crush.
He would have liked to have gotten back with me, and I would have been thrilled beyond measure to get with him, but because I could not remember him, and there were some other ugly things that happened to him that I would have had to remember to make sense of it all --I'm certain he was afraid that had I remembered the bad with the good, I would have rejected and hated him.
He went home to God in 2017 . My mother went back to where she came from , 9 months later in 2018. Over the years, I tried to look him up but never could find anything. In 2022, I attempted again and found his obituary and several photos his children put online of him. Then, the memories began resurfacing.
I had believed myself healed and 'better' over the past decade and a half, but this was a doozy. It both answered every question I've ever had about my life, why I've made the decisions I have and how I managed to mess myself over every chance I got, and also has put me in what seems to be a perpetual state of grief. I miss the man I love and I seethe at the life that was stolen from me and him. I wonder why I'm here, as it seems a life filled with misery, pain and loss. I've gone NC with my former "family" because of their refusal to even entertain that I just might be telling the truth. I have whittled my friendships down to 4 individuals who have shown me compassion, understanding, validation and acceptance--all things I never got from people who claimed to love me.
Thank you! As an adult I’ve always noticed and wondered how could I be so naive and blind given my childhood and adolescence and parents etc? it is so validating this whole video and will help me know what to work on in therapy and be mindful of. All of this can be overwhelming at times but I appreciate you Mr. Grannon! Truly!
This is the first time I have heard about neurotic naivety and it explains everything about who I am. I’m 50 and have known for 4 years now that my father is a malignant narcissist and I am the scapegoat but just hearing this is hugely beneficial to my healing. Thank you Richard 🙏🏻 So grateful.
Yes many illness from Narcissistic parental abuse, I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and auto immune disorders. Do an ACE (Adverse Childhood Experience) check with your doctor.
Your doctor likely won't know or care.
@@eveningprimrose3088 That's why you can take your doctor the test/paperwork/form so that he knows, its good to inform the medical proffession of this...some doctors are aware such as those in 'autoimmunity issues.
Rich...the question and answers have so much more value to people. We live in world of broken people so we need people to just tell the truth no one wants to hear...keep doing what you're doing :)
Yes, Mast Cell Activation Disorder, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Autoimmune Disorders. Etc
When videos about narcissistic parents really hit home and your heart physically hurts for yourself and for your parent because you know they've been through some shite too.
Oh yes, there is pain there, whether they admit it or not. L O V E and acceptance are my boundaries. This is the sort of person I want to be. I went on a tangent and not sure if I aligned with your comment but want to endorse your stance anyway. It's a good one.
@@diilouise Whenever my mother deeply offends my sense of right and wrong, I try to remember what I've learned about the psyche of these people and how they got that way, and remind myself that no one would chose that if there was a choice. But it's a shame the damage they do.
There is a lot of truth to the concept that we, the healing, are breaking generations of abusive patterns!!
@deborahserafin8253 good perspective. Simple, not easy.
@Hawaiiansky11 this can be true. My hubby and I decided long ago to be, what we call, transition people. We didn't want to pass onto our kids stuff that we thought was crappy for them. Well, imperfectly, that is what we continue to do, as best we can. It is not easy, but it is worthwhile.
Golden child. Example movie: Ordinary People. Brilliant film!
Yes! Mary Tyler Moore gave amazing performance of a narc mother.
I'm terrified of the ex turning our little one into him. I cannot stand him having any influence over her. She's already displaying people pleasing and is questioning herself and she's bloody 4 years old. I recognise in her what her dad did to me and how I reacted and she's doing the same thing. I deteste that thing that classes itself as her dad. She's stuck with a full family of them.
Just keep doing your part, thats all you can do❤ and never talk crappy, but don't lie [kids see everything!] about the ex, and let her see how her behaviors & words effect you: cry! Say how you feel. Let her hear that and grow a conscience thru loving you. ♡
I have learned from my deep study of narcissism, that both of my parents are narcissistic, possibly NPD with my mother, and as have been almost all of my romantic partners.
I hit 7/7 on the list as well, including a tendency to narcissistic behaviors when I am wronged or pushed to my limit. I would probably be a lot worse if not for years of Buddhism practice, years of therapy, and years of personal development. I've tried to be a better person continously, but have still done some monumentally selfish and stupid things motivated by pain and shame. I'm more keen to narcissistic behaviors now, even more to my own.
The expression you make at 39:06 is exactly like the ones my narcissist would make. He'd mimic these faces, tell me that's how I was acting, and say it made me look really weird. Afterward, he'd claim he was genuinely worried about me.
This is the best explanation I have seen so far of Narcissistic Parents. Especially emotional incest. I get a lot of slack when I use that term when explaining a situation I lived the last decade. Thank you for continuing to educate naive minds.
Instrumentalize, Objectify, and Exploit..... thats all the narcissist wants.... from everyone in their life.
1:02:22 Part of the Story.. BEING (human BEING vs. human DOING) I never thought about exercising type of self-care as form of spirituality. WOW I guilted and come from a family that viewed exercising as for people with "free time" and occasionally shamed me as being vain for going for a walk 😢
The MAIN characteristic of NPDs, IMO is JEALOUSY / COVETOUSNESS. I have always struggled with my weight and used gaining weight as a coping mechanism to passively keep men from finding me attractive, while also desiring the appearance of being healthy and attractive.
I remember when I graduated college being as close to my ideal weight as I'd been since 9th grade (5'5" and 125-130 lbs). BOTH of my parents (mother narc, father enabler / narc Jr) told me that I looked sick, anorexic and that I needed to eat. Nobody - not a single 'family' member complimented my appearance or the hard work it took to look and be healthy - instead, i was told that there was something 'wrong with' me for it.
P.S. After I had a child, my 300+ lb narc mother tried giving me (140-160 lbs at the time) advice on how to lose my baby weight. That's some hutzpah.
The only way to get over narcissistic abuse is to minimize "Dependency & Reliance" on others and to increase "Independence & Self-Reliance". Hence why "Dependency & Reliance" is designated as one of the 10-Enemies of Self-Improvement in Theory of Self-Relativity, and why "Independence and Self-Reliance" is designated as one of the 10-Commandments for self-improvement in Self-Relativity.
Hello Richard, I thanked you a couple of times a few years back because you were one of the top people I found extremely helpful in my attempts to understand narcissism and my tendencies to 'supply' them.
Bloody hell so far this message is dull as ditchwater, oops!
Anyway, I didn't see this live, but it has been good to top up the things I struggled so hard to grasp.
I also love your sudden reactions of surprise, curiosity, and most of all Liverpool humour. (Hope you don't mind that generalisation!), but I'm from a whole family of Scousers, (the only one born down south!).
I also like your obvious knowledge and ease of using it.
And that you're quite strict and can call people like me out and kinda call me a dick.
I got to the stage where I have learned to lay down barriers in a calm way, (not necessarily calm in my head, but able to seem calm, controlled, and stick to it).
I grieve for all the time I've spent fucking myself up or being fucked up by narcissists. "Friends", partners, my mum.
I have gone no contact with certain people, but I still struggle with guilt when I literally can't deal with Mum, and even when I think I might be strong enough to see her or phone her, I have to build myself up to it as if she was an enemy.
She keeps saying she accepts my boundaries but then immediately breaches them. I limit contact, but Mothers are culturally like angels so I feel guilty. However I know I am looking after myself. Xxx sorry Richard way too long message sorry. Sorry. X
You've opened my eyes to some dark dark truths. About myself and my childhood. Not really sure if i should be thrashing you or not, but honestly, thank you. Accepting the truth is the first step to healing. So yes, thank you for that truth.
Neurotically Naive . That was me until I had to grow up n I got treatment.
Joan Borysenko, PhD ( Mind/ Body )
My parents were far from perfect but... You are describing my daughter's father 😢... Thank you for sharing, I really enjoy listening to you 💕
I defo was neurotically naive! All of this is so on point. Thank you, as always. Very grateful to your ongoing analysis and input.
The truth of this makes me physically ill. So much of this speaks to my core and I feel like I’m going to vomit.
Thank you Richard for this video.
All this is way too familiar I was shamed i got kidney failure which my dad saw as taking my mums attention away and used fawning a lot of people pleasing and been in abusive relationships as my boundaries aren't good I'm trying to work on these things but it's difficult as a bereaved mum most things are a struggle but my little boy was such an Amazingly Brave little boy and showed me so much I'd as you say been blind to 💙👣🕊
Truly sorry for your loss Claire xxx
Thank you, among the best you have done !!!
It takes a lot of yrs to really come to terms and understand, all this, because of all the confusing messages one gets from parents-friends-societies changes (who did not know better back then, with no good education on life, or raising real kids) Right now, I have been, since some yrs, living close to some persons, or personas, which has given me such clear views of the inwoved patterns, in me, in those I encounter, and it is so freeing of all bs, to be able to see, and just let go, and then I do not mean, just go to cut off, or no contact. That is no good, one has to see, whats not been seen before, and daring to stay in it. Trained as a I have been to be as fostered into. Year after year, some relief, in what is this, what have I been in a sort of trance. Not transformingly good, if it is to heavy to take, some days I just have to have some Breathing-space from all of it, and just be quiet, and not in contact with anything outside of me.
Just cutting off, do it really teach us anything=?
Good question I believe, in conquering our inner fears, as much possible, with space and freedom to find whats really me in it. I do breathing, and dance as much as I can, meditate when possible, and am no longer afraid of whats in me, more afraid of people, who have no idea.
The society I grow in, all kids in the block knew each others then, in some, way, also parents knew, and we all had some healthy, way of seeing all kids as ours, today, it has developed, into some high class blocks, and worsening, to go between the classes, I do not think thats good at all, it is like here the bad people are, them we do not talk to, cause "youuu are not worthy" its awful to see that growing. With money/status, or no money/status, as a mark on where we belong. Awful.
The cutting off, cancel-things, have done a lot of damage, and no more understanding between us all. People, not beeing daring to "touch" any hard or soft stuff any longer, not able to understand each other, at all, no willingness left even, from both angles, when societies, go into too much of them there, me here.
Cutting off, for me its some sort of avoiding, or just some other type of cancel-culture phenomena. Of course one should not stay, to the degree, where, one self go totally under, but bit for bit, but daring to meet the troubles, and the patterns in any relationship, friends or foes, or family, gets clearer, and everyones patterning too.
If one just avoid/cutoff, one cant see, and when not seeing them, "One cant Unlearn whats been Learnt" ;) So one little bit, of training to cope is better, new ways of training to see. With all the body in it.
All this, and meditation, mindfulness, body consciousness, should be taught in schools, early and deeper, in higher age, also to parents, before having kids.
Thankyou Mr Grannon you really can't know how much understanding and clarity this avails, connecting the dots so to speak...deep gratitude.
So eye opening, it was a good description of myself. I am a bit horrified, but the same time relieved. I need the solution for this.
I've been neglected and abused by my parents, and others, my entire life. Why did my brother end up narcissistic, when I became more empathic? Yes, he was the Golden Child....I was the scapegoat.
Thank you so much Richard, I am grateful for your work and expertise. 1:01:30 ❤ I actually had that thought in 2019 when I wanted out of the 🌎 or no longer exist. I would never destroy someone's 🎨 art, so who am I to destroy the Creator's? "I will give thanks to You, because I am awesomely and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well." Kind David Psalms 139:14
"I would never destroy someone's art, so who am I to destroy the Creator's? " - I love this!! Thank you for sharing!!
More days than not, I wish to be removed from this wicked world. Largely because that's where the Man I Loved is, but also because I'm so sick of being targeted by exploiters and users! I'd rather be a hermit.
Good live chat, very entertaining. Thank you.
I think me, others and humanity as a collective is all learning the lesson of boundaries. I think we are learning how vital boundaries are for unconditional love to evolve. Every dysfunction and pain in human psyche is because someone violated our boundaries or we are violating other's boundaries because we haven't learned to set boundaries within ourselves.
It's a chaotic process but going in the right direction.
As I learn to set boundaries, for the first time in my life stress is leaving my body, addictions are dissipating and body/mind is willing for further healing. ❤️
I thank the universe for helping me until here and helping all of us find relief and peace. May us all be blessed.
Thank you!!
I appreciate your work Richard. Sincere thanks.
Hi Richard thank you for educating me.Only last few months had an issue with an adult son.Did not know the word narc.Only to realize not learning however was always ahead..Now in the process of having him remoe from my home.His dad is pure narc.Only now get the whole picture .Thank you so much Richard so happen his name is your name😂❤.
last year I started writing a book starting with a trip last year and how I came to that trip. At the end of last year I was back, stopped writing and temporarily switched to audio. But yesterday I started working on the part of my past that started with my birth of course, but how transgenerational (war) trauma has been passed on and narcissism has influenced my life. Terrible and intense memories, but it now gives me the opportunity to admit smaller versions of myself. How alone I was and that the pain can now be tolerated because there is now an adult version.
4. Developing NPD is spot on. Seems to explain my older brother perfectly. My father was tyrannical with him. I think my father is a borderline psychopath but probably you could classify him as having a malicious narcissistic personality disorder based on the fact he likes to be admired. He hates weakness though and will attack anyone he sees as weak. Physically when younger or verbally when in more polite society. Of course, if someone is weak but has a brilliant skill, he will still admire that person and won't attack them (at least in the short term). A bizarre person.
He used to say of my brother, 'i knew he was a gobshite from when he was 2 years old.' He literally hates anyone that says No to him, even if it's a 2 year old. My mother is a covert narcissist and extremely manipulative. She would tell my brother he was the best person in the world. My brother grew up to only want to be a world famous musician and was not bothered with other work. I was a pleaser when I was younger in order to try to stop getting hit every day, which was my main goal in life as a kid. My first goal was to move out, but at 5 I knew that was a long way away so I just wanted to stop being hit for nothing every day. I became very good at music as a kid and people would like to gather and listen to me. My older brother confessed to me a few years ago as adults that he was always super jealous of me as a kid and just wanted to be able to impress a crowd of people like I used to do. I don't even like playing music in front of people anymore and rarely do, as it always reminds me of wanting to impress my parents and not get hit. My older brother is very much a covert narcissist now. At least he married a girl with a PhD in Psychology and moved to another continent from our parents. As did I. He is still very much enmeshed while I try grey rock as much as possible and minimal contact.
Brilliant! Richard can you please do a whole video on neurotic naivety?? I think you really hit on a HUGE healing element here! ❤️🩹
What can you do as a grandparent that is seeing this being played out on the children?
Thank you, Richard. This was really good. So smart! 🙂
Brilliant and helpful as always
Trying to split from a suspect covert narc atm. Her mother is highly grandiose, tyrannical and pedestalised both her and her brother growing up. My ex partner idolises her mother, but everyone else outside of the bubble can see there is something inherently off. Since she's moved back in with her mother, I have seen a massive personality shift in my ex, almost sociopathic. Feels as if she's back getting adoration and supply again.
I agree with this theory. Narcissistic abuse (regardless of which type of Cluster B parents deliver it, especially if it's both parents) creates more NPD or cluster B kids.
So growing up with a narcissistic parent caused a blindspot which made me allow a very toxic person in my life and staying with that person for far too long.
Can one cure predator blindness?
Gratitude for you Richard 🤍
Best and most important and useful video ever made !!!⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
And now it makes sense... He enabled his mother and his mother enabled him, how romantic. Totally saw this happen for 14 years 10:49
Thanks for this video.
Jurassic 5!! Yes, Richard, we are the same age and I saw them at Lollapalooza back in the day and they signed my hat! Lol
i‘ve so much honest and real laughing with u 🎉 i sware!
😢❤Thanks Richard
Not quite sure (well, could be algorithms or subscriptions) but glad this video popped up today. I am pretty sure neither of my parents were narcissists ( probably had some narcisstic characteristics, more like it) I certainly developed some coping strategies that children raised by narcissists develop. The video is most useful. Especially the healing part. It is a journey, for me, not paying too much attention to things that just are. Thank you.
Predator blindness is for real. I volunteered myself for abuse. I would actually walk into it. Example. My dad would always use foul language, and say this is normal and that's how our ppl speak. So when I went to my hometown, to do a course, the guys were us8ng bad words, like eat shit, you're shit etc. And I would take it. Now when I look back. I can see everyone else eyes on me.. who wondered why I put up with it. I was literally bullied and I didn't realise it.
Richard, the sound quality on this video wasn't as good as past lives...kind of muffled and low volume. I had to turn my laptop sound all the way up, it still wasn't good unless I was sitting very close, and then on my JBL portable speaker it was kind of boomy and hard to take. Did you use to use an external mic or a different device? I missed a lot so will listen again.
Good content, I've struggled with most of the impacts you listed, having a covertly narcissistic mother and controlling, bullying father, and my ex-husband was highly narcissistic, raised by a father who was highly narcissistic and a mother who was codependent and emotionally histrionic; they treated him in the opposite extremes as you mentioned.
Was raised thinking that was how I was to be….. just like that man of all…..that one we all allowed to be the one over all….
Got ‘em. Thanks for this.
Watching someone talk about it, taking it apart piece by piece, is giving me a bit of a ptsd ;) well done sir
Connection going on here my friend 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Gosh this was me I lived with at the core all is pure, and even when the characters did play and show me their evil displays, I justified for the trauma and loss, that they must of experienced to and I wanted to fix them to😂 what a fool when the fixing was in me to do, the inner child did cry why why, do you allow this lie !
So now I only speak from truth a place that’s much better to be in the frequency ❤
I called that "Florence Nightingale syndrome." I actually thought I could cure and fix people by loving them.
But I didn't understand (was brainwashed to dismiss) people who were sick, toxic and traumatized also tend to be exploitative and abusive or at least toxic.
Well...this explains my life pretty fuckin thoroughly...
My BIL wasn’t the “Golden Child” as such for my narcissistic MIL
He was more the “Golden Goose”. At an early age he was used as “ Munchausen by proxy ” stuff he was the sickly child, the burden and coddled as a rival to his often absent father.
We four siblings lost our mom when she was 31 and the baby was born six months before her death. We had a caretaker who was very cruel during our growing up and learning . She made us the best revenge against our dad who was going on trips and never spent time together. The question is if she punched when we were not misbehaving and once it dawned on me that when we did something wrong and expected something serious and scared we would never be punished for that behavior?Is there a reason and explanation for that, I am sure it is a thing that purposely caused a false belief
Great information!
Yes. Asthma and anxiety and allergies since very early childhood. Both parents Narcs. One grandiose the other covert.
At the marker 3:00 you just finished talking about narcissistic effects on children and you described 99% of the children in America's Public Schools
This was incredibly helpful & you're so fuuny😂
Thankyou for the advice to keep Moving pumping the blood around the body . Sound advice that .
Finally after all these years I have my freedom... What do I do with it? Well I'm currently arguing about beans... Tomorrow I should probably... Like find some matching socks... Jebus...
~ minute 58+...Also, nations (ethnic groups, societies, tribes, etc.) In millennia past were not individualistic like we are today. That is another aspect of a way of being which we cannot begin to understand today. There was a greater oneness with the natural world, but there was also a more corporate sense of existence, and this is rarely addressed. I think we are diminished very much by extreme individualism.
I see untreated undiagnosed Aspergers in parent that will have the same effect as NPD- the difference is that there will be rigid sets of routine, hyper sensitivity to food, sound, light - in addition to criticism and perfectionism found in NPD parent.
The effect/byproduct of undiagnosed untreated Aspergers parent is high functioning autism in children
I would love to see the experts talk much more about the intersection of high-functioning autism and NPD!! I assume it hasn't been well figured out yet.
@@eveningprimrose3088 Yes, it is not researched at all.
I see that when we are in trauma, and kind of shock - some people will react to shock by developing narcissistic defenses and rigid mentality, difficult personality as shield against the threats in life.
Men are encouraged to go this path without empathy - and patriarchy is supporting men in this.
Others take the other spectrum and become people pleasers as defense mechanism, and this is more healthier because we are more open to learning and modifying dysfunctional coping mechanisms.
Not necessarilly. It depends maybe how autism manifests itself and with what comerbidity in a particular person. I have been a loving parent so far. Routine is desired but difficult with adhd and cptsd.
@@FreeWorld288 Of course, no same person with autism exists -
my postulate here is that abuse, narcissistic abuse in childhood, also known as ACE and ACoA will disturb the developmental stages which Piaget and Vigotsky discovered, and due to disturbance in growing up - any child brought up in narc abuse will develop traits of autism and ADHD and NPD.
Likewise - I filled autism test twice.
The first time I imagined myself in stress state and how I react and think when I am emotionally dysregulated. The test showed high Autism.
Then I made the same test again - this time I was thinking how I behave and process reality when I feel safe, when I am happy and when there is no trauma symptoms. The same test showed no autism being present..
@@ranc1977 you mean the symptoms that people have who were raised in a dyfunctional/toxic/narcissistic environment are same/very similar to the syptoms people with ASD have? I would agree. But i I think autism is more specific concerning communication and some rigid patterns. I think I continue being rigid in any environment.
What I've read recently is that children with ADHD brought up in a save environment show far less symptoms than peers who were brought up in an unhealthy place. Maybe it is similar with autism.
The difference between trauma/cptsd and autism lies in childhood. Autism symptoms are present from an early age. I was drawn to things, showed little interest in role play and was stumbled by social rules etc as a toddler/child. But then again, maybe with more nurturing I would already be different as a child and show less autism symptoms.
I am looking forward to more research in that area.
I thought you said in your OP that the upbringing in an autistic household causes similar trauma as growing up with NPD parents.
Authorities and gov bodies need to recognise that this topic actually exists. We need to train people to identify when this is occuring and have a process to take action and save countless lives - lives that are being destroyed and ruined from the inside/core. The current setup is being run by people that are completely clueless.
And people pleasing is a form of manipulation on the part of the abused
But codependency is not predatory which is a HUGE difference
It’s not a ‘manipulation’ it’s an adaptive survival mechanism. Don’t confuse covert narc behaviour of ‘fake niceness’ with victims of narc abuse.
When you mentioned the repetition compulsion it made me think of "iterative play," where traumatised kids will re-enact iterations of a scenario with incremental improvements in the outcome. Are we hardwired to deal with trauma in this way, and if so is this why it can be difficult to break the cycle of abuse/ return to narcissistic relationships?
I appreciate the trauma specialists who tell us that it's actually healing to fantasize about past traumas having good outcomes, rather than what really happened. Some days, I allow myself to indulge in such fantasies, as a way to calm me especially if the day has been particularly stressful.
Yeah, I think there's a difference between wallowing and healing. The proof is in the pudding. You won't know which you're doing until you get the outcome. But I believe that if you are authentic and put the work in, things get better. Appreciate your reply x
For what it's worth, I think the repetition compulsion is an attempt to make what turned out so badly the first time to come out right the second time. Like when an NPD marries someone who he turns into his mother in his mind and then discards her, successfully separating from her, which he couldn't do the first time. However, "success" doesn't seem to cure NPD, but maybe it scratches an itch, so to speak, and is therefore satisfying on some level.
Having been married to an NPD, I really, really wanted it to work. I almost died trying to make it work. I too wanted to redeem my own past that was so tragic and awful, I think.
I'm wondering how to put this simply. My 7 yr old boy spends 4 days with me, and 3 with his narcissistic mother (and this was a term used by social services, saying that to give you an idea of the circumstances), whereas I was the feeding station, until she started feeding on my boy. How do I stop him becoming a servant/feeding station? I can't stop him seeing his mam, I can't stop him listening to his mam. Whilst SS were involved, he told me 'Mammy didn't tell me that lying was bad' I don't want him growing up like me or her and I am stressing about it and not being my best self?
My daughter is an extension of her paternal grandmother...my son is the scapegoat to the father and his mother, as am I presently....hence my doing my best to protect them. Hence im the bad guy....
Thank you ❤
Can't help but Wonder how much #.4 developing NPD or reactivity to over exposure to a Narcissistic Parent gets diagnosed, medicated as some transient illness while the child is guinea pigged on for being disagreeable or having behavioural issues, when infact they're suffering the effects of emotional incest among other forms of covert abuse and are voiceless, powerless to self advocate & shut down when they try?
So interesting to ponder (I am about half way through the live chat). I have recently been ill (bronchitis/pneumonia). Most people want to know 'how are you feeling?' 'Are you getting better?' 'Do you think it was caused by xyz?' Don't get me wrong, people want us to get better, but sometimes I think it is for them, so they can stop worrying - cynical me. Only two people have allowed me to be sick and expressed how sucky it must be.. Interesting.
I think that covert narcissists DO NO'T see that they developped themself narcissism because of the parents. My ex when triggered goes all black and white, no empathy, living in perceptions and not fact. He is convinced that he is fighting narcissism in the world and people not taking responsability. And yet, always blames everyone but himself for his problems, people being against him, feeding out of him, etc.
The few people around him are backless people or they just don't questions his "perceptions". I tried. I almost went crazy trying. He broke me.
Look into the carnivore diet, fibromyalgia, and lots of other diseases, conditions.
Any chance of a guest list for Liverpool please Richard? Or reduced door tax for old Scouse Ladies who can not afford £200 . We would only stay for 3hours as couldn't cope with a full day . Gardening is my gymnasium. Spring is here so much to do outside cheering up the neglected public spaces for free with TLC gives flowers ,colour and scent to a busy urban world. Environment is Everything for healthy minds and bodies. I often have to work at night as to avoid traffic/ fumes .
#5. Pathological Naïveté
I think this can also evolve from intensely polarised, well intentioned and apparently “solution oriented” parents who amp up instrumentation through the solutions - maybe seeking to “explain” the bad situation that crosses over into parental incest, to solutions that jettison kids into adult world and expectations too soon like opening a business and placing them in positions of too much responsibility, despite age, capacity and competency.
Some of the way you expressed this seems like i stramentalisation and parentification comes from a place of insight and consciousness - I’d imagine a huge percentage of it is parental pathology and a lack of insight, this perpetuating and even accelerating damage depending on the circumstances and mal informed, confused, yet well intended actions of parents. Thoughts?
How do you find the right therapist to help you?
Describes ex husbands mother perfectly!
She gained supply from me giving her son financial gain, and clout.
Okay so I'm about 2 mins in and feel a bit called out here lol
Hello, there were many situations and I didn't know what was going on, and after I married a cover narcissist, I realized that my mother was a narcissist and my sisters, too, I left home at the age of 15. I was the black sheep of the family. Its was many strong situations in my childhood but there was one from many When I was 14 years old, my mother and stepfather sent me to get wine at night. Along the way, I was harassed and chased by a man from whom I ran away, but I reached the house late withthat the wine and money, all shake and cry . My mother opened the door and started shouting at me, where is my wine? She not give me chance to explain what hapening in way she trow me whit stapfather on ground in kitchen they was holding ich one my leg and they were pulling my pants down, they wanted the money for wine that I lost when I ran away from a man on the street. It was terrible, I remember that I locked myself in the toilet, that I cut my veins in the toilet, and there were countless similar situations, it was seriously terrible life experiance
Almost 65 and been walked all over most of my life.
We are set up for failure
If I stopped eating my pot oil, my uterus disease would floor me and I could take an ambulance every month. CB1 receptors deficiency in endocannabinoid system. 😊
Autoimmune disease
Was put in many double binds by ex and his mother and am still being put in double binds....through him and family court...
I asked you this when I first met you….. you had such an ego thang still going on there. Very condescending you answered me….. like I was already to know the answer coming from you…. So happy we have both grown since then. You have a spot in my heart my friend greater daily thanks for sharing your growth 💜🧚🏻♀️💜