The only thing holding back FCEV's is the lack of fuelling stations. I am an owner of a Hyundai Nexo for over two years. The best car I have ever had. I am very satisfied. Being a dog owner Mirai was not an alternative for me. I am lucky to live in a city where there is a fuelling station. I am looking forward to the day when I can go wherever I want with my car without having to worry about if I can fuel or not. Sincerely Jens Mariestad, Sweden
@@Balletified I have had my car since 2019 and I have driven 90 000 km. I havn't had any technical issues with the car. I am very satisfied with the car but not so satisfied with the reliability on the refuelling stations. They sometimes have technical issues of different characters.
@@youhyunlee5542 I have never driven a Mirai. I can't compare them. Mirai and Nexo are two different types of cars. Mirai is a sedan and Nexo is a SUV.
As a sustainability architect, we have been pushing the use of Hydrogen Fuel cell technology for all static power generation, as well as targeted low speed power consumption such as trucks, some cars, shipping etc. Great benefits also for high rise buildings and shopping centres for power generation. Great video and thank you!
Thank you. A fantastic and very interesting review. From what I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Australia is able to efficiently produce its own hydrogen, so it definitely makes sense. Especially with the vast distances between our major cities that many of us drive.
Nope, you won’t see hydrogen being produced efficiently, its impractical to cart it around the country, it’s cheaper to produce onsite with fossil fuels. Economics will make sure your hydrogen is as dirty to the planet as diesel and petrol. At 38% efficient it’s useless. Possibly the only future is long haul trucks and shipping.
@@jestronixhanderson9898Yep...you will see "GREEN" hydrogen being produced big time in Australia especially in the states of Western and the northern Australia...the federal government are planning to roll out hydrogen for vehicle use across the entire country in the next decade as part of their hydrogen future policy that will see them being the biggest producer and consumers of hydrogen on the planet....as for the economics of producing hydrogen...you can afford to use more energy as the raw material to produce it is FREE ... namely sun and wind and the electricity production facilities are built right next to the hydrogen plants... several projects are being built and more are being planned to supply Japan and Korea as thay have also bet their future vehicle transport fuel requirements on hydrogen!!!.🤔🇦🇺
I've always said hydrogen fuel cells is the way forward not battery electric cars. Thanks for proving my point. Sure there are some issues to sort, but it's the right way to go. 👍
Both are way forward in different ways/functions. Electric for the city (Short distances, I deal for car-sharing model), PHEV for long-distance driving, and ICE-based Hybrid for both drive and more.
Long distance driving in Korea is not the same as long distance in the US... how plenty or few are Hydrogen filling stations in Korea and outside of Seoul? How about Charging stations for BEVs, are there more or less of them there? I was stationed in KUNsAN AB in 1993 and it seems to me there aren't that many Korean cities where you would need a fuel cell EV or you would see many hydrogen filling stations... but charging BEVs at home at 100v outlets would also be problematic...
@@yootoober2009 Korea has 220V for public use, by the way. Here we already have a number of H2 refueling stations (current 117), which gonna be further expanded. Local government plans 310 by 2023. Let's se how it goes.
Electric was going nowhere until Tesla came along and made it cool. These look like great products but we need a trailblazer to give hydrogen the marketing kick to compete with electric.
Hydrogen is awesome, better than electric Just need all those who idolize Elon Musk to think beyond his hype and realise that hydrogen vehicle are so much better for the environment than EV's The nice thing about hydrogen is you can create refueling stations that replenish via solar and put them in remote locations, with EV refueling stations you typically have to run electrical infrastructure to the refueling station Battery technology will improve but it's still uses materials dragged out of the earth and when batteries die there is a very definite cost to recycle them Maybe one day we'll see hydrogen generation become so efficient that card could generate their own hydrogen as they drive like a scramjet engine does! (Before people start flaming, I do realise this is almost certainly never going to happen unless we can somehow control matter or we travel around at supersonic speeds, I just like to dream a bit) I'm a believer in hydrogen. I don't mind electric but I honestly think hydrogen has more promise, is better for the environment, has less components that need recycling as part of their lifecycle, solves the time to refuel problem too What hydrogen lacks is the backing of pathetic Australian government who sit on their arses when it comes to backing hydrogen. Let's face it, the government cannot even be objective enough to change the legislation to even allow conversations on the use of nuclear energy in Australia as an energy source for electrical power generation! (Yes, in case you were not aware, nuclear as a method of power generation in Australia is banned, not just in being able to use it but even being able to include it in studies for review of the technology in government proposals. Such was the governments love for all things coal when they introduced their completely biased legislation) What I would like to know is how much water is produced in practical terms as it drives along. I've seen talk that say all water dissipates into the air, other more scaremongering talk say it makes the road wet (which I don't quite believe myself because of the rate of conversion of the hydrogen to water) and even some talk that the road water could be captured and pumped because it's pure water! (This one was because the person envisioned nearly every car being hydrogen). I've not seen any real world test or explanation on this aspect of hydrogen vehicles and the true amount of water they produce on mass (i.e. if a large number of hydrogen vehicles were on the road at the same time all powered by hydrogen)
Hydrogen has no place in mass market consumer segment, it belongs in transportation trucks or heavy machinery and that's about it. Firstly, it is extremely inefficient to produce, the world currently do not have enough green energy production to supply for general consumer and industrial use, let alone to produce hydrogen itself, which starts off the process by using electricity. Once the hydrogen is produced, it needs to be stored in the right temperature and pressure, which requires more electrical energy consumption to maintain the storage. Then it needs to be transported to the distribution centre (which as of now, is being transported by diesel trucks or ships if by sea). From there, it needs to be further transported to your local refuelling stations again via diesel trucks and the stations would need to be operating with a lot of electricity to store the hydrogen. Then as the video has clearly highlighted the transfer of hydrogen to the actual vehicle itself is extremely limited by how fast it can handle the transfer and how many vehicle it can support in a day. Then we move on to the hydrogen cars itself, which had to have multiple tanks to be designed and incorporated into the vehicle meaning it has many compromises with the vehicle design as well space and storage. This is before you even get to the design operations of hydrogen cars, they take the hydrogen to convert it into electricity to power the electric motors. So essentially what you're doing is take 100% of the electricity at the start of this whole process, convert that into multiple forms of energy along the different stages and journeys to eventually be converted back into it's original electricity stage to power the electric motor and by the time it gets to that stage you've already lost over 60% of the original electrical energy you consume. The end results is hydrogen cars are only 38% energy efficient. If you truly understood this, you would also understand why the rest of the car manufacturing world have gone down the full battery EV path as EV take energy directly from solar production into the batteries for storage and power the electrical motor immediately, all at over 80% efficiency rate. Literally every main car manufacturers already have at least one full battery EV model currently in production and operating on the roads, all except for Toyota themselves, who have forever sit on their "Hybrid" and "Hydrogen" brand marketing nameplate and as a result have fallen behind the market and reality. Again back to my original point, hydrogen power vehicle has a place, just not in your general mass market consumer vehicles.
@@edgarchieng2130 Hydrogen us one off the most produced products, it's used everywhere. Toyota, the world's biggest automaker has chosen hydrogen is the way forward. They didn't become the biggest by making stupid decisions.
@@edgarchieng2130 Have you heard of hydrogenated graphite (graphane) ? Suggest you look it up as one day you will be able to go and shop for it at your local supermarket and power your car. Hydrogen is the future and Australia can be the leading producer of it.
@@Robert-cu9bm they did make the silliest decision with pedalling the hydrogen story for far too long and no uptake and development. They’ve been on this marketing brand exercise for 20 years with zero market adoption and progressions. Heck you can’t even publicly buy the car here. They are releasing a full suite of BEV models across its main brand and Lexus next year because they realised they are 3 years behind everyone else. And when that comes to market and everyone jumps on it ya’ll will quickly realised the same. Hydrogen has no place for mass market consumer vehicles. Leave that for heavy trucks and machineries.
@@jamesgowing3856 have you seen how to fill up your hydrogen car? If not I suggest you go and read up how hydrogen is produced, how it is stored, how it is transported then stored again and how it is transferred to the vehicles and how it is then converted back to electricity to power the electric motor in the car. The whole process is like taking a bucket of water, soak it in sponge, freeze it, store it, then move it by trucks to distribution, freeze it, then distribute again to local stations, then freeze it while you store it, then defrost it and squeeze the water from the wet sponge to make it into normal water again but you lose all the water along the way and only get 38% of the bucket you start with. Go read about it there’s plenty of resources everywhere theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899
Why? Brisbane to Sydney in 3 stops for a Tesla, heck I used to make that many stops in my petrol car. It’s more practical to fly , this is only good for trucks and shipping.
I would prefer hydrogen over battery technology in terms of refuelling, just like an ICE car, drive into a servo, fill the tank and on your way in about 5 minutes. BEVs on the other hand take longer to recharge however some such as the soon to launch Hyundai Ioniq5 can recharge in 18 minutes. I think in the short term BEV is the way to go as the infrastructure is more advanced than hydrogen and it's possible to travel on long journeys if you time your breaks while the BEV recharges. Once the hydrogen refuelling infrastructure is rolled out I think it will become the way to go particularly for heavy vehicles because of the tare penalty of batteries.
But you do know it doesn't take 5 mins to fill up right? The entire hydrogen concept is very inefficient in general mass market consumer vehicles. It requires electricity to produce (a lot of electricity) hydrogen, more electricity to store, then had to be transported to distribution center which requires more electricity and diesel truck, then more transport to local stations which uses more electricity to store and run. Then the transfer into the vehicle itself is a limitation itself as there's only so many transfer you can do a day (less than 10). Then after all of that the hydrogen you store into your vehicle (yes, more tanks space means limitations packaging and design in the car) is converted back to electricity again to power the electric motor. So you essentially that the main electrical energy, convert to hydrogen, transport to distribution centre, store in distribution centre, transport again to stations, store in stations, transfer to hydrogen vehicles, convert hydrogen back to electricity. All of that means you're getting 38% of the 100% electricity you started off in the first place. Meanwhile for a full battery EV, you take 100% electric energy from your roof top solar, transfer directly to the battery in the car, and it get used immediately by the electric motor, your efficiency rate is over 80%. If you lose a dollar for every percentage of energy lost, which would you take? That's exactly why every car manufacturers are going down the path of battery EV. Hydrogen belongs in heavy machineries, transport trucks and so on where the main operations are centred around a depot (where you can efficiently transport and store hydrogen). You get more bang for buck running full battery EV by plugging in your home and many existing fuel stations can convert to EV charging points faster, quicker, and cheaper to run than to invest in converting it into hydrogen stations (might not even be plausible).
@@edgarchieng2130 So people with BEVs can only drive at night, as during the day your filling up from your solar? Every car manufacturer going down battery electric... We're watching 2 main manufacturers going hydrogen. And one of them is the biggest automaker.
@@edgarchieng2130 Your recommendation would require 5 times the solar array size that an average homeowner would have. It would also require that homeowner to be at home during the day charging when the sun is shining. This is a large commitment for most EV owners who don't work at home during the day.
@@Robert-cu9bm not necessarily, my point being if you charge by solar it goes straight from sun into battery. When there’s no solar power you charge from existing power supply be it at home or at the thousands and every growing number of charging stations around the country. Just like how you would charge you phone at night when you go to sleep, you literally do the same, you don’t need to wait till the battery is flat before you charge just like how you don’t wait for your phone battery to be completely flat before you charge same concept. BEV can fill up at a rate much faster than you can transfer hydrogen into the car. The standard range for BEV these days are over 430km, and with fast charge now available in way more stops than a hydrogen it only requires a short top up which takes 15-20mins and you’d add another 200km range easily. Driving an BEV doesn’t mean you always have to charge to 100%, the ideal operating range is 0 to sub 80% because that’s when you can easily deliver over 120Kwh into the battery. You can literally charge anywhere there is a power point but the same cannot he said for hydrogen. Australia if were to go full hydrogen it would take over a decade to fully refit existing fuel stations and the enormous cost to run such stations. These stations would make much more money quicker and easier supplying EV that’s why BP and Shell in Europe are supplying EV charging stations alongside their existing fossil filling pumps. Why wouldn’t they? It costs way less to fit an EV chargers you get free supply from their massive rooftop solar real estate. EV is the future, not hydrogen for mass market consumer vehicles
@@k1fizz I was just pointing out that with BEV you can literally take 100% of solar power and feed it into the battery of the car. If you don’t use solar you can use the thousands and ever growing number of EV charging stations or any power points available. You can’t say the same for hydrogen. Hydrogen takes 100% electricity, then convert it into hydrogen via electrolysis, store it at low temperate and high pressure using electricity, transport to distribution centre via diesel trucks, then store at distribution centre again using lots of energy, then distribute again to local stations using diesel trucks, and then again store them at local stations requiring more energy. Then when it is finally transferred to your car, the car converts the hydrogen back to electricity to power the electric engine and by then you’re only getting 38% of all the electrical energy used at the beginning of the electrolysis process, this is before you add all the wasted energy required to store and transport the hydrogen. It’s so inefficient it’s not funny and many manufacturers clearly see that that’s why none has mass produced hydrogen but you can see pretty much every main manufacturers already have an BEV produced manufactured sold and already running on the roads. Every.single.brand bar Toyota.
Congratulations ACT [Australian Capital Territory - Canberra]. Hope this HYDROGEN is our future for cars and other vehicles. [ps. did you use the Air Con as the cars were quite misted up]
Your congratulating fuel companies trying to push a dead technology, hydrogen is a terrible idea for so many reasons. I haven’t used a charger or fuel station for a year, 20,000 km to and from work, for $500. 30% made from my roof top solar. In the city EVs win hands down. Natural gas is better than hydrogen, you know how they make hydrogen right? Not with solar panels :)
Just back from a refueling of my Nexo here in the Bay Area after it collected dust and bird poop for about a month… the fuel supply was down and it was a traumatic experience to say the least, renting gasoline cars for the past 30 days. Unless the infrastructure becomes reliable, this will be a bothersome technology to own. However I must agree that the Nexo is a surprisingly pleasant and good car to drive.
How much a kg for fuel? Would need to be around $10 per kg to be competitive against diesel assuming car was same price as a diesel alternative. Toyota looked very poorly packaged but that is a typical Toyota weakness. Has a model S Tesla look about the outside but a reverse Tardis interior/boot. The Hyundai should cost about 20% more but it would be worth it with its excellent packaging and open ferling, nice high visibility and superior space.
Go check out crash tests of both vehicles. The H2 tanks is the only component that doesn't bend out of shape even when the rest of the car crumple over them in the harder hits.
Correct, hydrogen power has no place in mass market convincer vehicles due to its extreme inefficiencies in the overall process from generation to final output. It belongs in heavy machinery and trucks.
Yep for trucks and ships, EVs are already doing more km than anyone’s bladder can hold. I can’t hold longer than 300km , I usually spend 20 mins eating and pissing with a stretch of the legs. The latest EVs charge 300-400km in that time.
I have done the Canberra "Kings HWY" to Batemans Bay many times (both directions), also the Princess HWY to from Batemans Bay back to Sydney (via Nowra and Outskirts of Wollongong), not the most ideal way to get back or to (again depending on which direction), it would f been more interesting to go from Canberra to Sydney using the Federal HWY to Hume HWY rout as the speeds (one you leave ACT region) 110km/h basically all the way back to just near outskirts of Liverpool, that way you would of got a good test without basically any regen as to how much hydrogen was consumed. I know with my turbo petrol 6-speed torque converter AWD SUV that the same trip consumes around 33L of 98 RON which is about 8.1L per 100km or 12.2km per 1L of 98 RON.
Hydrogen is the future ... At present it has a long way to go before it is able to be more widely available, remember it will take time like how petrol took time and how it's taken Battery storage / electric 15+ years to get to this level, it will take time but fuel cell powered by hydrogen will be the winner in the end.
Great video. Definitely interested in Toyota. I expect Hydrogen version of Lexus will be the way forward, personally. Hopefully the refueling infrastructure will dovetail with Green Hydrogen production. Europe and, hopefully Australia can lead the way. Could you do a similar head to head between Tesla and Mirai including refuelling/charging. We need to have a reality check on what's genuinely on offer. Thanks again
No point, would not be fair comparison. Tesla has global network of fast EV charging stations, Based on the video there are "less than a handful" of Hydrogen stations in all of Australia. The station in the ACT is "beta", likely not available to the public.Not sure if a hydrogen station exists in Sydney.
@@mrdecarte1 hopefully that will change over time. I'm optimistic parallel fuel/charge stations will become available within this decade. Europe is advancing a variety of feasibility projects. Fingers crossed.
You can just see what the Lexxus version will be ,same tanks ,but a motor on front axels ,as well as the rear,and a larger battery perhaps an advanced one. Much faster acceleration.
Hydrogen wins hands down over batteries because of quick refills, longer term storage since you won’t loose stored energy especially in cold conditions and the recycling problem with batteries is eliminated. Hydrogen is also a better choice for Australia as we have such an enormous amounts of unused coast line where wave and or tidal power can be used to make hydrogen. It was interesting to see the image of the hydrogen tanks as they were similar in size and shape of the tanks in my old LPG powered Falcon ute where there was plenty of room under the tray for them. Toyota had the better drive train with rear wheel drive which is best for a two wheel drive electric, even better than two wheel drive ICE because an electric motor can be fitted parallel to the rear axle which eliminates the need for a bevel crown wheel and pinion gears in the differential which is not ideal. I think all EV makers have got the regenerative braking a bit wrong. I think it would be better to have a third pedal where a clutch pedal would be and this could act as a second brake where the harder you push it the more regenerative braking you get. Sometimes it’s better to coast to a stop.
@@jestronixhanderson9898 Low Carbon H2 will eventually cost $.50/kg to produce,the government can make the price now, whatever they want, H2 today costs $.77kg but only at the refinery from natural gas and in megaton quantities. Australia is one of the world's worst polluters so,I don't see the motivation to install H2.
With lot of futuristic promises, but under delivery in terms of battery technology, I think H2, especially green hydrogen would become a much better substitute to not just diesel cars but also petrol cars. That is unless all those ridiculous 1000k batteries with few minutes charging becomes a "REALITY" in next 5 years.
Knowing by now how many charging stations Battery EVs need and will in need the future tells me how much Hydrogen filling stations Fuel Cell EVs will also need to compete with pure BEVs... It is obvious it will cost a lot more to build one hydrogen filling station vs one EV charging station.. By this alone, Hydrogen Fuel cell EVs cannot compete with Battery Electric Vehicles...
I'm going to stick to my reliable Hybrid Camry until there are more infrastructure and selections available. Can't beat 900kms for a tank, and I can refil anywhere. I take the Murai anyday over the Hyundai, but when will these cars be available and how miuch are they.
I would definitely buy a Hydrogen Fuel Cell over a Tesla or any other electric car. In my view, it's closer to a Petrol and Diesel car we know and love. Out of these two cars, the Toyota will be my choice and in my view the last shot in saving the dying sedan.
Definitely hydrogen fuel cell cars are the future for Australia. Increasingly there is high demand for resources to make batteries. The cost and shortage of these resources is only going to get worse. Australia has enough resources to make and export hydrogen and it makes sense that this will enable us to reduce our dependency on oil resources which we don't produce. By the way who wants to sit around for hours waiting for a battery to be charged?
Oh man , hours! you gotta check out how quick new EVs charge. And it’s getting quicker. for all my trips of 200km or less around town, I simply charge at home, takes me 30 seconds all up. For long trips, 300km with a 20min stop. Times have changed from early EVs.
@@jestronixhanderson9898 I am not sold. Batteries leave terrible waste behind. Australia would remain dependant on other countries to provide them in large numbers. We have lots of resources that fit in with hydrogen production and it means we can become a self reliant and also build an export industry.
well the amount of hydrogen infrastructure thats being built or is built here in australia should a clue as to how big hydrogen is going to be,its going to be massive,take infinite blue energy based in western australia for example,when its completed its first stage of building will be able to produce 25 tonnes of hydrogen a day through the electrolysis of water powered by solar and wind energy
Battery electric or Hydrogen electric? Well EVs are currently better place for infrastructure however neither has the infrastructure in place across Australia for wide spread adoption. The Hydrogen energy model would be ultimately easier to scale up as it fits the existing petrol model, petrol bowsers and storage tanks could be replaced by hydrogen bowsers and pressure tanks, refilling times would be similar. In regards to efficiency it's a case of swings and round abouts. EV's electricity is more efficient in regards to the production however less efficient when it comes to energy density and therefore storage and weight.
Nope and nope, take a look at the average distance the average Australian travels per day, less than 60km. I spend 30 seconds a day to ply my EV in at home, less or same than someone who fills up once a week at the servo. Long distance, say 500km or more in one go then hydrogen maybe.
@@jestronixhanderson9898 Good for you. A lot of people do not have anywhere to plug in and some need more than 60km range (refilling is not a matter of minutes then). If everyone drove an EV the current infrastructure clearly could not cope. Hydrogen currently has no infrastructure. So Yes and Yes as Hydrogen would be a better fit if you wanted a replacement that was more like petrol, i.e. people didn't have to change how they drove and filled up. I didn't say EVs were not workable for many people.
Hydrogen will become the fuel of the future simply because it is unlimited and lithium will become very expensive over time and is a limited resource. Lithium alternatives are available but lack the power density at this time.
Much prefer Hydrogen. This is Australia, we need range. Not only that, the charge times for EV are way too slow. Plus, manufacturing of huge volumes of batteries defeats the purpose of moving away from fossil fuels, they will end up just being a part of the problem, but in another way. Consuming Hydrogen and then expelling water as a by product.... it's a no brainer. Don't make Musk richer, make the world a cleaner place to live in.
I think if the hydrogen can be produced and compressed 100 carbon free, and there are enough filling stations, to me Mirai looks great. Nexo looks ok too but I don't really like SUVs. I think EVs will be much more popular in the long run but I will be happy if hydrogen cars get out of just being a novelty and become mainstream as well.
2/3 of the world can't use this tip of the cars. If is water coming out from exhaust, it is going to end up on the pavement, freeze, creating dangerous conditions on the road.
@@jestronixhanderson9898 As far as I know AC is used summer time, and water evaporates. In the winter months water freezes and stays on the pavement. Thousands and thousands cars would produce a lot of ice and turn roads in to skating rink.
@@coba7501 You aren't familiar with the Mirai,it only releases water when you want to,this is not even close to an issue,ICE releases water from every gallon,most of exahaust is steam.
Hydrogen makes more sense as compared to battery packs. The Mirai is definitely the winner and Toyota's reliability reputation means you can trust the Mirai
@@emanuelV8 It already is happening as we speak. Look up all the new hydrogen station networks being deployed in Germany, Italy, China, Japan, Korea, Canada, USA.
Hydrogen production requires enormous amounts of electricity to separate the H2 from the O in water, in Australia the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fuels, so a hydrogen car is far from environmentally friendly, but then neither is a fully electric car being charged the same way. What we really need to do in Australia is develop 100% ethanol fuel cars and convince the farming industry to make ethanol from all their waste produce that isn't suitable for sale. Ethanol doesn't add any extra CO2 into the atmosphere as it is already part of the carbon cycle and would boost a struggling farming industry. Any crop that produces sugars can be used to make ethanol, even native fruit like lillypilly.
I’ve done 20,000 km this year for $500 , 30% came from my solar. no servicing needed. And no I’m not a Tesla fan boy, i live in the city where EVs kick ass over fuel of any kind. For country driving and trucking Ethonal shines. Hydrogen is useless I agree on that.
Australia needs to open study on advanced nuclear,keep installing wind.and build your own solar pv production facilities,. The USA will have some very nice small nuclear plants , for sale soon, far safer and quite afordable,but you need to do a study in preperation of changing laws.
Internal combustion engines are inefficient, and the performance of ICE vehicles compared to BEVs of the same class is woeful. Lets not forget lower maintenance costs and superior reliability of electric drive train
Aus is opening up to nuclear,small advanced nuclear stations can be very inexpensive and small,you could have one providing H2 and charging EV's,right at the station,excess current to the grid.
@@paulbedichek2679 Yeah heard that Australia is building mini reactors in urban areas, reactor planned to be built just around the corner from my place, near the petrol station. 😉🤣
All this obsession with range is ` business as usual'. Like the rest of the world, Australians need to break the filthy habit of driving everywhere. The real climate friendly future will coinsist of 300 mph hydrogen trains.
This video highlights why hydrogen powered passenger vehicles are a bad idea and not viable for the passenger vehicle use case. Some issues to consider, when buying your next car. 1. Can I refuel a hydrogen car at home in my garage like people who drive battery electric vehicles can charge their vehicles? 2. Hydrogen fuelling stations are costly to build compared to EV charging stations e.g Tesla Supercharger, Chargefox, Evie, public charging. Electricity can be safely transported using the existing electricity grid. 3. Using hydrogen as a fuel for passenger vehicles is significantly less efficient that using batteries due to losses associated with converting electricity into hydrogen and then back to electricity. 4. Hydrogen is a dangerous and volatile gas that is difficult to store and transport, is it safe to be building hydrogen facilities in urban environments? 5. BEVs cost less to operate, maintain, and are far more reliable, efficient and have superior performance, compared with internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. 6. Most passenger vehicle manufacturers are shifting to BEV production and are phasing out ICE vehicles. They are not producing or selling hydrogen powered vehicles.
1, not everyone can have home charging, they live in apartments, have no off-street parking, renting so can't install a charger. 2. You only need one station, which is equivalent to building hundreds of EV charging stations 3. You can store more energy on the vehicle than battery. 4.petrol, LPG, lithium batteries are all volatile and yet we use them everyday without any training 5. Your comparing BEV to ICE as a reason to choose BEV over hydrogen... You might as well compare to jet engines. 6. Except for the ones that aren't. Groupthink doesn't mean it's the right choice At one stage everyone said the world was flat and one person said it wasn't, who was right?.
@@Robert-cu9bm Ok lets see. 1. True, however many strata managers and body corporates are now adding EV charging facilities, public charging facilities are also being expanded. So, in the near future this will no longer be an issue. For the typical urban use case, a standard 10amp power outlet is sufficient for an overnight charge. Compare that with with building hydrogen storage facilities and transporting pressurised hydrogen. 2. "You only need one station", are you serious? By your logic, only one petrol station is need between Sydney and Canberra. 3. True, hydrogen has a higher energy density than batteries. That does not change the fact that BEVs are far more efficient than hydrogen powered Fuel Cell Vehicles (FCV). 4. Does not change the fact that Hydrogen and petrol are far more volatile than a battery. I certainly would not want to live next door to a petrol or hydrogen station. 5. Ok, reasons to choose BEV over Hydrogen FCV: a. You can charge an EV at home, for free if you have solar. b. You can't buy an FCV in Australia and most passenger vehicle manufacturers are shifting to EV production, not FCVs. Toyota have been pushing hydrogen for years but are now realising they have backed the wrong technology and are also developing BEVs while they try and slow the transition to BEVS. c. Hydrogen filling station infrastructure is practically non existent in Australia, "less that a handful" of "beta" stations in testing. Compare that with rapidly expanding EV charging networks, both domestically and internationally. d. BEV are more efficent than FCVs, and likely cheaper to operate and maintain than a FCV. e. Electricity is easily accessible and cheaper compared to hydrogen. f. BEV prices are falling as battery technology is rapidly advancing and economies of scale are being reached. 6. Not a case of group think or flat earth theory. VW, Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, Stellantis have all obviously done their research and due diligence and have concluded BEVs are the future. Toyota have invested huge amounts in Hydrogen technology but have been completely wrong footed and are now left scrambling to delay the invevitable.
@@mrdecarte1 1. You clearly haven't tried charging a EV overnight on a 10amp plug.... You get less than 10km per hour. Then you have fact you would be quadrupling the electricity use of all households, so all the network would need to upgraded at major cost, all paid for by the consumer in higher electric prices. The network can't handle summer Aircon use now, that's nothing compared to the energy consumption of EVs 2. Let me rephrase that, 1 hydrogen station is equivalent to hundred of EV chargers. Probably more, because half the chargers never work. 3. Yes they are, but efficiency doesn't matter when it comes to convenience... ICE is 30% efficient and yet we use them everyday. 4. yet, only EVs have been told not to park in your garage due to the risk of burning down your house. 5 A. Not free, you have to pay at least 10k for the set up, probably more of you want to get enough solar to charge your car. Then you have the fact, you would only be able to use your car at night as your changing during the day. B. You couldn't by a Tesla a decade ago, so that means they shouldn't have gone forward with BEV'S. How have they realised they backed the wrong horse when they're continuing development of hydrogen. If that was they case you would stop. C. So was EV infrastructure until it was, not a reason to stop development. D. More efficient True, cheaper debatable we'll have to wait and see. E. But not as convenient as hydrogen. Fast filling times is far better and more convenient. F. Same will be said for hydrogen. 6. Toyota didn't become the largest by making stupid decisions.
@@Robert-cu9bm ok lets address your points. 1. I own a EV and yes, I charge on a 10 AMP outlet overnight, which is perfectly adequate given that like most people, I drive less than 60 km a day and my vehicle has 450km of range, so no need to charge every day. Also, a 32 AMP single phase EVSE will add 45 km of range p/h, 3 phase about 75 km p/h. As for your predictions of increased electricity usage, this will be offset by the continued uptake of solar and home battery storage. There is actually surplus energy being generated and fed back into the grid. Large scale battery storage can and is addressing this. So i'm afraid EV armagedon will not happen. 2. "Half the chargers never work", lol, Have you ever charged at a Tesla Supercharger station? "1 hydrogen station is equivalent to hundred of EV chargers" Based on what? , video states "you can only fill up so many cars per day"and they had to wait for an hour to use the station. They were also only able to fill the cars up to 2/3 full so they had even less range than current long range Tesla BEVs. So, 1 hydrogen station like the one in the video is most definitely not equivalent to a 100 EV chargers. A Tesla Supercharger station typically has 8 or more stalls, with cars charging for 10 to 30 minutes. Stations in the US or Europe are even larger. I think you miss the point, with a BEV you primarily charge at home, this is not possible with a Hydrogen FCV like those shown in the video. 3. You can have both efficiency and convience. As a BEV driver, I love the convenience of being able to charge my car at home for much less than I used pay for petrol and not having to visit petrol stations. And I only use DC fast chargers for road trips, plug in and go for a coffee, break. 4. I suspect you are referring to the General Motors Chevy Bolt recall in the US? That is a corner case, does not apply to all BEVs and is cherry picking. If you check US statistics you will find that ICE vehilce fires per miles driven far exceed BEV fires. 5. a. Solar can power a house as well as a BEV, which can be charged during the day or night. Yes, there is an intial outlay but there is a also a return on investment (lower power bills, no petrol, oil changes, less servicing etc.) b. Toyota have not relased any hydrogen FCV into many markets and are now talking about producing BEVs. Google "Toyota Beyond Zero". Also, Toyota haven't even built any Hydrogen stations in Australia, compare that approach with Tesla's supercharger network and other EV charging networks such as Chargefox, Evie, NRMA. c. The Market will determine development, most passenger vehcile manufacturers have already chosen BEVs over Hydrogen FCVs, for the passenger car use case. d. Indeed e. You obviously did not pay attentention to the video when they were "filling" the cars at the Hydrogen station. They had to wait for an hour and could only fill up 2/3 of a tank due to pressue issues. How many hyrdogen stations are there in Australia, less than a handful? I don't see anthying convenient in that. Its actually much more convenient to plug in your BEV, take a break, grab a coffee or something to eat and return to BEV in 10 to 20 minutes. No standing around at a bowser and then having to line up to pay a cashier. f. I doubt it, passenger vehicle manufactures are shifting to BEV production. Hydrogen will most likely be restricted to heavy vehicles and fleet vehicles. That's the case in the ACT, the goverment's fleet of 20 Hyundai Nexo vehicles are fuled at the Fyshwick Hydrogen station shown in the video. Probably the only Hydrogen passenger vehicles operating in Australia. 6. Agree, but they have certiainly made some stupid decisions of late, bet the house on Hydrogen but the entire passenger vehicel industry is going BEV. Are you familiar with the phrase "past performance is no guarantee of future performace"?
@@mrdecarte1 1. Exactly, too slow from a 10amp plug. Surplus electricity at what time of the day??.. You do understand power cable can only handle a certain amount, right?.. Why do you think the providers are now pushing for smart solar so they can turn it off. 2.so everyone should own a Tesla? Based on the fact it takes the same time to refuel as a ICE vehicle (as they said this is a beta station, so not set up yet for full capacity) vs charging a BEV(which is over a hour) I now live in Europe and can tell you the charging network is unreliable, you can not take a road trip with confidence that you won't be stuck somewhere. Most the stalls don't work, and often find the one that does is only 3kw... You gotta love a lot of coffee for that charge. 3. But that's only convenient if you can charge at home and don't travel anywhere. Australians travel lots and tow big things. 4. Does not apply to all? Hyundai, Chevy Never heard of a petrol car being recalled because it spontaneous combusts . 5. What solar do you have that can charge at night? less servicing, guess you haven't looked at the service intervals for most manufacturers, often the diesel has the longer one. you can buy mirai in Europe right now. The market will determine development, then why do we need to subsidize EV's and ban ICE... That's not very market driven. Yeah I've had to return after 10 mins too but that's because the charger just stopped working for no reason. Should we have taken that approach to BEV as well a decade ago?, There's only one station, let's stop all development. 6. Yes, but it's a very good indicator and the only one we have. Why do you think banks check your payment history? Considering its no guarantee of the future. Do you think your more likely or less likely to do well if you have a good past or a bad one. A Tesla works for you, but doesn't for the majority of people, which is why EV's only make a few percent of sales. It's about convenience and cost, not convenient enough and cost too much.
What about the cost of the energy used to produce the hydrogen in the first place? It takes electricity to produce hydrogen - a lot of it. Cut out the middle man and stick with EV, I reckon. You may feel different, and that's fine.
Hydrogen is can be easily produced with sea waves,wind and solar power instead of burning another fuel. But according to your arguments so what’s the different then . When it comes to electricity for BEV s electricity farms needs much bigger storage capacity to reserve electricity . I can’t explain here please do some research. But when makes hydrogen it doesn’t need such storage. That’s why Hydrogen comes as a fuel. And you must know, if everyone goes for BEVs then current Electricity production is not enough for charges all of them . Until someday fusion generators come..
Hi, from Madrid, Spain. I don't want a lithium battery's car, I think that is looser vs a combustión car and vs hidrogen car, range, price, weight, recharge times, and recharge cicles. I think the battery's cars Will be little urban. Bye.
The only thing holding back FCEV's is the lack of fuelling stations. I am an owner of a Hyundai Nexo for over two years. The best car I have ever had. I am very satisfied. Being a dog owner Mirai was not an alternative for me. I am lucky to live in a city where there is a fuelling station. I am looking forward to the day when I can go wherever I want with my car without having to worry about if I can fuel or not.
Sincerely Jens
Mariestad, Sweden
i would say the only thing holding FCEV back, is the price. Car price, refueling price. Whatever you choose.
the hydrogen revolution is coming ..... ⛽
@@Balletified I have had my car since 2019 and I have driven 90 000 km. I havn't had any technical issues with the car. I am very satisfied with the car but not so satisfied with the reliability on the refuelling stations. They sometimes have technical issues of different characters.
@@jenspersson4883 Hey, I'm thinking of getting a hydrogen car later this year. Can you provide more details on Nexo vs. Mirai? Thanks.
@@youhyunlee5542 I have never driven a Mirai. I can't compare them. Mirai and Nexo are two different types of cars. Mirai is a sedan and Nexo is a SUV.
As a sustainability architect, we have been pushing the use of Hydrogen Fuel cell technology for all static power generation, as well as targeted low speed power consumption such as trucks, some cars, shipping etc. Great benefits also for high rise buildings and shopping centres for power generation. Great video and thank you!
Great work,with apartment buildings they can use the heat generated as a byproduct and use it no waste.
Thank you. A fantastic and very interesting review. From what I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Australia is able to efficiently produce its own hydrogen, so it definitely makes sense. Especially with the vast distances between our major cities that many of us drive.
Nope, you won’t see hydrogen being produced efficiently, its impractical to cart it around the country, it’s cheaper to produce onsite with fossil fuels. Economics will make sure your hydrogen is as dirty to the planet as diesel and petrol. At 38% efficient it’s useless. Possibly the only future is long haul trucks and shipping.
@@jestronixhanderson9898Yep...you will see "GREEN" hydrogen being produced big time in Australia especially in the states of Western and the northern Australia...the federal government are planning to roll out hydrogen for vehicle use across the entire country in the next decade as part of their hydrogen future policy that will see them being the biggest producer and consumers of hydrogen on the planet....as for the economics of producing hydrogen...you can afford to use more energy as the raw material to produce it is FREE ... namely sun and wind and the electricity production facilities are built right next to the hydrogen plants... several projects are being built and more are being planned to supply Japan and Korea as thay have also bet their future vehicle transport fuel requirements on hydrogen!!!.🤔🇦🇺
I've always said hydrogen fuel cells is the way forward not battery electric cars. Thanks for proving my point. Sure there are some issues to sort, but it's the right way to go. 👍
Both are way forward in different ways/functions. Electric for the city (Short distances, I deal for car-sharing model), PHEV for long-distance driving, and ICE-based Hybrid for both drive and more.
I drive my Nexo (in Korea) and I absolutely love it! Never thought of switching to conventional battery EV so far.
Long distance driving in Korea is not the same as long distance in the US... how plenty or few are Hydrogen filling stations in Korea and outside of Seoul? How about Charging stations for BEVs, are there more or less of them there? I was stationed in KUNsAN AB in 1993 and it seems to me there aren't that many Korean cities where you would need a fuel cell EV or you would see many hydrogen filling stations... but charging BEVs at home at 100v outlets would also be problematic...
@@yootoober2009 Korea has 220V for public use, by the way. Here we already have a number of H2 refueling stations (current 117), which gonna be further expanded. Local government plans 310 by 2023. Let's se how it goes.
A really interesting video with an Australian perspective. Strategically placed refuelling points on major highways is the key to take up.
Electric was going nowhere until Tesla came along and made it cool. These look like great products but we need a trailblazer to give hydrogen the marketing kick to compete with electric.
I drive Toyota Mirai in Los Angeles and I absolutely love the car!
the hydrogen revolution is coming ..... ⛽
Hydrogen is awesome, better than electric
Just need all those who idolize Elon Musk to think beyond his hype and realise that hydrogen vehicle are so much better for the environment than EV's
The nice thing about hydrogen is you can create refueling stations that replenish via solar and put them in remote locations, with EV refueling stations you typically have to run electrical infrastructure to the refueling station
Battery technology will improve but it's still uses materials dragged out of the earth and when batteries die there is a very definite cost to recycle them
Maybe one day we'll see hydrogen generation become so efficient that card could generate their own hydrogen as they drive like a scramjet engine does! (Before people start flaming, I do realise this is almost certainly never going to happen unless we can somehow control matter or we travel around at supersonic speeds, I just like to dream a bit)
I'm a believer in hydrogen. I don't mind electric but I honestly think hydrogen has more promise, is better for the environment, has less components that need recycling as part of their lifecycle, solves the time to refuel problem too
What hydrogen lacks is the backing of pathetic Australian government who sit on their arses when it comes to backing hydrogen.
Let's face it, the government cannot even be objective enough to change the legislation to even allow conversations on the use of nuclear energy in Australia as an energy source for electrical power generation! (Yes, in case you were not aware, nuclear as a method of power generation in Australia is banned, not just in being able to use it but even being able to include it in studies for review of the technology in government proposals. Such was the governments love for all things coal when they introduced their completely biased legislation)
What I would like to know is how much water is produced in practical terms as it drives along.
I've seen talk that say all water dissipates into the air, other more scaremongering talk say it makes the road wet (which I don't quite believe myself because of the rate of conversion of the hydrogen to water) and even some talk that the road water could be captured and pumped because it's pure water! (This one was because the person envisioned nearly every car being hydrogen).
I've not seen any real world test or explanation on this aspect of hydrogen vehicles and the true amount of water they produce on mass (i.e. if a large number of hydrogen vehicles were on the road at the same time all powered by hydrogen)
Hydrogen has no place in mass market consumer segment, it belongs in transportation trucks or heavy machinery and that's about it. Firstly, it is extremely inefficient to produce, the world currently do not have enough green energy production to supply for general consumer and industrial use, let alone to produce hydrogen itself, which starts off the process by using electricity.
Once the hydrogen is produced, it needs to be stored in the right temperature and pressure, which requires more electrical energy consumption to maintain the storage. Then it needs to be transported to the distribution centre (which as of now, is being transported by diesel trucks or ships if by sea). From there, it needs to be further transported to your local refuelling stations again via diesel trucks and the stations would need to be operating with a lot of electricity to store the hydrogen.
Then as the video has clearly highlighted the transfer of hydrogen to the actual vehicle itself is extremely limited by how fast it can handle the transfer and how many vehicle it can support in a day.
Then we move on to the hydrogen cars itself, which had to have multiple tanks to be designed and incorporated into the vehicle meaning it has many compromises with the vehicle design as well space and storage. This is before you even get to the design operations of hydrogen cars, they take the hydrogen to convert it into electricity to power the electric motors.
So essentially what you're doing is take 100% of the electricity at the start of this whole process, convert that into multiple forms of energy along the different stages and journeys to eventually be converted back into it's original electricity stage to power the electric motor and by the time it gets to that stage you've already lost over 60% of the original electrical energy you consume. The end results is hydrogen cars are only 38% energy efficient.
If you truly understood this, you would also understand why the rest of the car manufacturing world have gone down the full battery EV path as EV take energy directly from solar production into the batteries for storage and power the electrical motor immediately, all at over 80% efficiency rate. Literally every main car manufacturers already have at least one full battery EV model currently in production and operating on the roads, all except for Toyota themselves, who have forever sit on their "Hybrid" and "Hydrogen" brand marketing nameplate and as a result have fallen behind the market and reality.
Again back to my original point, hydrogen power vehicle has a place, just not in your general mass market consumer vehicles.
@@edgarchieng2130
Hydrogen us one off the most produced products, it's used everywhere.
Toyota, the world's biggest automaker has chosen hydrogen is the way forward.
They didn't become the biggest by making stupid decisions.
@@edgarchieng2130 Have you heard of hydrogenated graphite (graphane) ?
Suggest you look it up as one day you will be able to go and shop for it at your local supermarket and power your car.
Hydrogen is the future and Australia can be the leading producer of it.
@@Robert-cu9bm they did make the silliest decision with pedalling the hydrogen story for far too long and no uptake and development. They’ve been on this marketing brand exercise for 20 years with zero market adoption and progressions. Heck you can’t even publicly buy the car here. They are releasing a full suite of BEV models across its main brand and Lexus next year because they realised they are 3 years behind everyone else. And when that comes to market and everyone jumps on it ya’ll will quickly realised the same. Hydrogen has no place for mass market consumer vehicles. Leave that for heavy trucks and machineries.
@@jamesgowing3856 have you seen how to fill up your hydrogen car? If not I suggest you go and read up how hydrogen is produced, how it is stored, how it is transported then stored again and how it is transferred to the vehicles and how it is then converted back to electricity to power the electric motor in the car. The whole process is like taking a bucket of water, soak it in sponge, freeze it, store it, then move it by trucks to distribution, freeze it, then distribute again to local stations, then freeze it while you store it, then defrost it and squeeze the water from the wet sponge to make it into normal water again but you lose all the water along the way and only get 38% of the bucket you start with. Go read about it there’s plenty of resources everywhere theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899
A very good video, very interesting. I also admire your knowledge on this topic and you explained it well. Thank you.
Would live to have a plug in hybrid hydrogen car- best of both worlds!
They'll come,eventually.
We need the infrastructure in Australia to support hydrogen production and refuelling stations. I would have one of each of those cars.
Why? Brisbane to Sydney in 3 stops for a Tesla, heck I used to make that many stops in my petrol car. It’s more practical to fly , this is only good for trucks and shipping.
You should implement studies for advanced nuclear makes clean electricity and clean H2,noticed that is exactly what Aus did this week with GB.
@@paulbedichek2679 Pink Hydrogen ⚛️
I would prefer hydrogen over battery technology in terms of refuelling, just like an ICE car, drive into a servo, fill the tank and on your way in about 5 minutes. BEVs on the other hand take longer to recharge however some such as the soon to launch Hyundai Ioniq5 can recharge in 18 minutes. I think in the short term BEV is the way to go as the infrastructure is more advanced than hydrogen and it's possible to travel on long journeys if you time your breaks while the BEV recharges. Once the hydrogen refuelling infrastructure is rolled out I think it will become the way to go particularly for heavy vehicles because of the tare penalty of batteries.
But you do know it doesn't take 5 mins to fill up right? The entire hydrogen concept is very inefficient in general mass market consumer vehicles. It requires electricity to produce (a lot of electricity) hydrogen, more electricity to store, then had to be transported to distribution center which requires more electricity and diesel truck, then more transport to local stations which uses more electricity to store and run. Then the transfer into the vehicle itself is a limitation itself as there's only so many transfer you can do a day (less than 10). Then after all of that the hydrogen you store into your vehicle (yes, more tanks space means limitations packaging and design in the car) is converted back to electricity again to power the electric motor.
So you essentially that the main electrical energy, convert to hydrogen, transport to distribution centre, store in distribution centre, transport again to stations, store in stations, transfer to hydrogen vehicles, convert hydrogen back to electricity. All of that means you're getting 38% of the 100% electricity you started off in the first place.
Meanwhile for a full battery EV, you take 100% electric energy from your roof top solar, transfer directly to the battery in the car, and it get used immediately by the electric motor, your efficiency rate is over 80%. If you lose a dollar for every percentage of energy lost, which would you take? That's exactly why every car manufacturers are going down the path of battery EV. Hydrogen belongs in heavy machineries, transport trucks and so on where the main operations are centred around a depot (where you can efficiently transport and store hydrogen). You get more bang for buck running full battery EV by plugging in your home and many existing fuel stations can convert to EV charging points faster, quicker, and cheaper to run than to invest in converting it into hydrogen stations (might not even be plausible).
@@edgarchieng2130
So people with BEVs can only drive at night, as during the day your filling up from your solar?
Every car manufacturer going down battery electric... We're watching 2 main manufacturers going hydrogen. And one of them is the biggest automaker.
@@edgarchieng2130 Your recommendation would require 5 times the solar array size that an average homeowner would have. It would also require that homeowner to be at home during the day charging when the sun is shining. This is a large commitment for most EV owners who don't work at home during the day.
@@Robert-cu9bm not necessarily, my point being if you charge by solar it goes straight from sun into battery. When there’s no solar power you charge from existing power supply be it at home or at the thousands and every growing number of charging stations around the country. Just like how you would charge you phone at night when you go to sleep, you literally do the same, you don’t need to wait till the battery is flat before you charge just like how you don’t wait for your phone battery to be completely flat before you charge same concept. BEV can fill up at a rate much faster than you can transfer hydrogen into the car. The standard range for BEV these days are over 430km, and with fast charge now available in way more stops than a hydrogen it only requires a short top up which takes 15-20mins and you’d add another 200km range easily. Driving an BEV doesn’t mean you always have to charge to 100%, the ideal operating range is 0 to sub 80% because that’s when you can easily deliver over 120Kwh into the battery. You can literally charge anywhere there is a power point but the same cannot he said for hydrogen. Australia if were to go full hydrogen it would take over a decade to fully refit existing fuel stations and the enormous cost to run such stations. These stations would make much more money quicker and easier supplying EV that’s why BP and Shell in Europe are supplying EV charging stations alongside their existing fossil filling pumps. Why wouldn’t they? It costs way less to fit an EV chargers you get free supply from their massive rooftop solar real estate. EV is the future, not hydrogen for mass market consumer vehicles
@@k1fizz I was just pointing out that with BEV you can literally take 100% of solar power and feed it into the battery of the car. If you don’t use solar you can use the thousands and ever growing number of EV charging stations or any power points available. You can’t say the same for hydrogen.
Hydrogen takes 100% electricity, then convert it into hydrogen via electrolysis, store it at low temperate and high pressure using electricity, transport to distribution centre via diesel trucks, then store at distribution centre again using lots of energy, then distribute again to local stations using diesel trucks, and then again store them at local stations requiring more energy. Then when it is finally transferred to your car, the car converts the hydrogen back to electricity to power the electric engine and by then you’re only getting 38% of all the electrical energy used at the beginning of the electrolysis process, this is before you add all the wasted energy required to store and transport the hydrogen. It’s so inefficient it’s not funny and many manufacturers clearly see that that’s why none has mass produced hydrogen but you can see pretty much every main manufacturers already have an BEV produced manufactured sold and already running on the roads. Every.single.brand bar Toyota.
Great review and information 👍
Congratulations ACT [Australian Capital Territory - Canberra]. Hope this HYDROGEN is our future for cars and other vehicles. [ps. did you use the Air Con as the cars were quite misted up]
Your congratulating fuel companies trying to push a dead technology, hydrogen is a terrible idea for so many reasons. I haven’t used a charger or fuel station for a year, 20,000 km to and from work, for $500. 30% made from my roof top solar. In the city EVs win hands down. Natural gas is better than hydrogen, you know how they make hydrogen right? Not with solar panels :)
Just back from a refueling of my Nexo here in the Bay Area after it collected dust and bird poop for about a month… the fuel supply was down and it was a traumatic experience to say the least, renting gasoline cars for the past 30 days. Unless the infrastructure becomes reliable, this will be a bothersome technology to own. However I must agree that the Nexo is a surprisingly pleasant and good car to drive.
Very informative and comprehensive video - well done,
The Mirai is more luxurious, looks better, and has superior handling.
Wow I feel like watching a competitive sports game. Thanks for this outstanding content .
How much a kg for fuel? Would need to be around $10 per kg to be competitive against diesel assuming car was same price as a diesel alternative. Toyota looked very poorly packaged but that is a typical Toyota weakness. Has a model S Tesla look about the outside but a reverse Tardis interior/boot. The Hyundai should cost about 20% more but it would be worth it with its excellent packaging and open ferling, nice high visibility and superior space.
Once H availabity is granted i would definitly go for this technology
350 to 700 Bar pressure is pretty serious. How would that go in an accident.
Go check out crash tests of both vehicles. The H2 tanks is the only component that doesn't bend out of shape even when the rest of the car crumple over them in the harder hits.
Disaster, hope they don't build a hydrogen station in your neighbourhood.
City focused EVs and Hydrogen long haulers look to be the way to go.
Correct, hydrogen power has no place in mass market convincer vehicles due to its extreme inefficiencies in the overall process from generation to final output. It belongs in heavy machinery and trucks.
Yep for trucks and ships, EVs are already doing more km than anyone’s bladder can hold. I can’t hold longer than 300km , I usually spend 20 mins eating and pissing with a stretch of the legs. The latest EVs charge 300-400km in that time.
I have done the Canberra "Kings HWY" to Batemans Bay many times (both directions), also the Princess HWY to from Batemans Bay back to Sydney (via Nowra and Outskirts of Wollongong), not the most ideal way to get back or to (again depending on which direction), it would f been more interesting to go from Canberra to Sydney using the Federal HWY to Hume HWY rout as the speeds (one you leave ACT region) 110km/h basically all the way back to just near outskirts of Liverpool, that way you would of got a good test without basically any regen as to how much hydrogen was consumed. I know with my turbo petrol 6-speed torque converter AWD SUV that the same trip consumes around 33L of 98 RON which is about 8.1L per 100km or 12.2km per 1L of 98 RON.
Petrol and diesel are way cheaper than hydrogen, always will be. Hydrogen is dead.
Hydrogen is the future ... At present it has a long way to go before it is able to be more widely available, remember it will take time like how petrol took time and how it's taken Battery storage / electric 15+ years to get to this level, it will take time but fuel cell powered by hydrogen will be the winner in the end.
A great review gets you thinking
How much its price
Great video.
Definitely interested in Toyota.
I expect Hydrogen version of Lexus will be the way forward, personally.
Hopefully the refueling infrastructure will dovetail with Green Hydrogen production. Europe and, hopefully Australia can lead the way.
Could you do a similar head to head between Tesla and Mirai including refuelling/charging. We need to have a reality check on what's genuinely on offer.
Thanks again
No point, would not be fair comparison. Tesla has global network of fast EV charging stations, Based on the video there are "less than a handful" of Hydrogen stations in all of Australia. The station in the ACT is "beta", likely not available to the public.Not sure if a hydrogen station exists in Sydney.
@@mrdecarte1 hopefully that will change over time. I'm optimistic parallel fuel/charge stations will become available within this decade. Europe is advancing a variety of feasibility projects. Fingers crossed.
You can just see what the Lexxus version will be ,same tanks ,but a motor on front axels ,as well as the rear,and a larger battery perhaps an advanced one. Much faster acceleration.
Both options great for Australia bring them on... Ice engines are now so old school..
So are BEV's, they've been around since the beginning of the 1900s
Hydrogen wins hands down over batteries because of quick refills, longer term storage since you won’t loose stored energy especially in cold conditions and the recycling problem with batteries is eliminated.
Hydrogen is also a better choice for Australia as we have such an enormous amounts of unused coast line where wave and or tidal power can be used to make hydrogen.
It was interesting to see the image of the hydrogen tanks as they were similar in size and shape of the tanks in my old LPG powered Falcon ute where there was plenty of room under the tray for them.
Toyota had the better drive train with rear wheel drive which is best for a two wheel drive electric, even better than two wheel drive ICE because an electric motor can be fitted parallel to the rear axle which eliminates the need for a bevel crown wheel and pinion gears in the differential which is not ideal.
I think all EV makers have got the regenerative braking a bit wrong. I think it would be better to have a third pedal where a clutch pedal would be and this could act as a second brake where the harder you push it the more regenerative braking you get. Sometimes it’s better to coast to a stop.
Will it able ever available to buy in Australia??
I hope not, it will fail anyway as it’s near twice the cost of diesel per 100km
@@jestronixhanderson9898 Low Carbon H2 will eventually cost $.50/kg to produce,the government can make the price now, whatever they want, H2 today costs $.77kg but only at the refinery from natural gas and in megaton quantities. Australia is one of the world's worst polluters so,I don't see the motivation to install H2.
Sat watching a video about hydrogren replacing petrol. Advert for BP 98 comes on. Lol.
With lot of futuristic promises, but under delivery in terms of battery technology, I think H2, especially green hydrogen would become a much better substitute to not just diesel cars but also petrol cars. That is unless all those ridiculous 1000k batteries with few minutes charging becomes a "REALITY" in next 5 years.
Knowing by now how many charging stations Battery EVs need and will in need the future tells me how much Hydrogen filling stations Fuel Cell EVs will also need to compete with pure BEVs...
It is obvious it will cost a lot more to build one hydrogen filling station vs one EV charging station.. By this alone, Hydrogen Fuel cell EVs cannot compete with Battery Electric Vehicles...
I'm going to stick to my reliable Hybrid Camry until there are more infrastructure and selections available. Can't beat 900kms for a tank, and I can refil anywhere. I take the Murai anyday over the Hyundai, but when will these cars be available and how miuch are they.
I’d prefer hydrogen and the Nexo seems like a much better all rounder
I would definitely buy a Hydrogen Fuel Cell over a Tesla or any other electric car. In my view, it's closer to a Petrol and Diesel car we know and love. Out of these two cars, the Toyota will be my choice and in my view the last shot in saving the dying sedan.
Really awesome review. Thank you for sharing. Your knowledge on hydrogen is very impressive. Love the CarsGuide shirts and jackets too!
Its really stupid how people's focusing on electric car while there is car work on hydrogen
It will be - eventually 😎👍
Definitely hydrogen fuel cell cars are the future for Australia. Increasingly there is high demand for resources to make batteries. The cost and shortage of these resources is only going to get worse. Australia has enough resources to make and export hydrogen and it makes sense that this will enable us to reduce our dependency on oil resources which we don't produce.
By the way who wants to sit around for hours waiting for a battery to be charged?
Oh man , hours! you gotta check out how quick new EVs charge. And it’s getting quicker. for all my trips of 200km or less around town, I simply charge at home, takes me 30 seconds all up. For long trips, 300km with a 20min stop. Times have changed from early EVs.
@@jestronixhanderson9898 I am not sold. Batteries leave terrible waste behind.
Australia would remain dependant on other countries to provide them in large numbers. We have lots of resources that fit in with hydrogen production and it means we can become a self reliant and also build an export industry.
well the amount of hydrogen infrastructure thats being built or is built here in australia should a clue as to how big hydrogen is going to be,its going to be massive,take infinite blue energy based in western australia for example,when its completed its first stage of building will be able to produce 25 tonnes of hydrogen a day through the electrolysis of water powered by solar and wind energy
It will be 😎👍
The Germans thought the Zeppelin was a great idea, until the Hindenburg disaster
Battery electric or Hydrogen electric? Well EVs are currently better place for infrastructure however neither has the infrastructure in place across Australia for wide spread adoption. The Hydrogen energy model would be ultimately easier to scale up as it fits the existing petrol model, petrol bowsers and storage tanks could be replaced by hydrogen bowsers and pressure tanks, refilling times would be similar. In regards to efficiency it's a case of swings and round abouts. EV's electricity is more efficient in regards to the production however less efficient when it comes to energy density and therefore storage and weight.
Nope and nope, take a look at the average distance the average Australian travels per day, less than 60km. I spend 30 seconds a day to ply my EV in at home, less or same than someone who fills up once a week at the servo. Long distance, say 500km or more in one go then hydrogen maybe.
@@jestronixhanderson9898 Good for you. A lot of people do not have anywhere to plug in and some need more than 60km range (refilling is not a matter of minutes then). If everyone drove an EV the current infrastructure clearly could not cope. Hydrogen currently has no infrastructure. So Yes and Yes as Hydrogen would be a better fit if you wanted a replacement that was more like petrol, i.e. people didn't have to change how they drove and filled up. I didn't say EVs were not workable for many people.
Hydrogen will become the fuel of the future simply because it is unlimited and lithium will become very expensive over time and is a limited resource. Lithium alternatives are available but lack the power density at this time.
Hydrogen buses are rolling out in Victoria right now.
Much prefer Hydrogen.
This is Australia, we need range.
Not only that, the charge times for EV are way too slow.
Plus, manufacturing of huge volumes of batteries defeats the purpose of moving away from fossil fuels, they will end up just being a part of the problem, but in another way. Consuming Hydrogen and then expelling water as a by product.... it's a no brainer. Don't make Musk richer, make the world a cleaner place to live in.
Great 👍
the hydrogen revolution is coming ..... ⛽
I think if the hydrogen can be produced and compressed 100 carbon free, and there are enough filling stations, to me Mirai looks great. Nexo looks ok too but I don't really like SUVs. I think EVs will be much more popular in the long run but I will be happy if hydrogen cars get out of just being a novelty and become mainstream as well.
EV’s are just an initial distraction till the proper stuff gets going 😎
Both are way too good for aus
Because of back seat I will never buy miari.
I like hydrogen as a concept, I don't think battery will be practical in Australia
Bring on green hydrogen
2/3 of the world can't use this tip of the cars. If is water coming out from exhaust, it is going to end up on the pavement, freeze, creating dangerous conditions on the road.
What ? They release about the same amount as the air conditioning on your car, it’s a drop of water every few seconds .
@@jestronixhanderson9898 As far as I know AC is used summer time, and water evaporates. In the winter months water freezes and stays on the pavement. Thousands and thousands cars would produce a lot of ice and turn roads in to skating rink.
Water is our freind.
@@paulbedichek2679 Water it is, but ice on the road is not.
@@coba7501 You aren't familiar with the Mirai,it only releases water when you want to,this is not even close to an issue,ICE releases water from every gallon,most of exahaust is steam.
Hydrogen makes more sense as compared to battery packs. The Mirai is definitely the winner and Toyota's reliability reputation means you can trust the Mirai
Electric car can I charge at home, anywhere in the world and Hydrogen car? It just has no future, nobody needs these cars and nobody will buy them
@@emanuelV8 all those fuel stations will have hydrogen filling added and for those electric cars who's gonna wait all that time to recharge
@@sallybryan3754 it cost over 1.Milion € to Upgrade it. It's unlikely to happen
@@emanuelV8 It already is happening as we speak. Look up all the new hydrogen station networks being deployed in Germany, Italy, China, Japan, Korea, Canada, USA.
I'm thinking I'd prefer Hydrogen
Want an Hydrogen car?: Me No.
It's a Toyota: Shut up and take my money!
I choose hydrogen for long term run
It doesn't depreciate as fast as battery
I prefer Hydrogen 18:00
I think i would prefer electric vehicles.
Please pronounce HYUNDAI as "Hyeon-Dae"
Watever
Hydrogen production requires enormous amounts of electricity to separate the H2 from the O in water, in Australia the majority of electricity is generated by fossil fuels, so a hydrogen car is far from environmentally friendly, but then neither is a fully electric car being charged the same way. What we really need to do in Australia is develop 100% ethanol fuel cars and convince the farming industry to make ethanol from all their waste produce that isn't suitable for sale. Ethanol doesn't add any extra CO2 into the atmosphere as it is already part of the carbon cycle and would boost a struggling farming industry. Any crop that produces sugars can be used to make ethanol, even native fruit like lillypilly.
I’ve done 20,000 km this year for $500 , 30% came from my solar. no servicing needed. And no I’m not a Tesla fan boy, i live in the city where EVs kick ass over fuel of any kind. For country driving and trucking Ethonal shines. Hydrogen is useless I agree on that.
Australia needs to open study on advanced nuclear,keep installing wind.and build your own solar pv production facilities,. The USA will have some very nice small nuclear plants , for sale soon, far safer and quite afordable,but you need to do a study in preperation of changing laws.
Internal combustion engines are inefficient, and the performance of ICE vehicles compared to BEVs of the same class is woeful. Lets not forget lower maintenance costs and superior reliability of electric drive train
Aus is opening up to nuclear,small advanced nuclear stations can be very inexpensive and small,you could have one providing H2 and charging EV's,right at the station,excess current to the grid.
@@paulbedichek2679 Yeah heard that Australia is building mini reactors in urban areas, reactor planned to be built just around the corner from my place, near the petrol station. 😉🤣
All this obsession with range is ` business as usual'. Like the rest of the world, Australians need to break the filthy habit of driving everywhere. The real climate friendly future will coinsist of 300 mph hydrogen trains.
Amazing review. Something that I only can get from CarsGuide. A big thanks to the team!
Pile of plastic crap...sorry but I drive one for work and I'll never own a Toyota....worst transmission ever.
As Japanese....🖕🤣🤣🤣
This video highlights why hydrogen powered passenger vehicles are a bad idea and not viable for the passenger vehicle use case. Some issues to consider, when buying your next car.
1. Can I refuel a hydrogen car at home in my garage like people who drive battery electric vehicles can charge their vehicles?
2. Hydrogen fuelling stations are costly to build compared to EV charging stations e.g Tesla Supercharger, Chargefox, Evie, public charging. Electricity can be safely transported using the existing electricity grid.
3. Using hydrogen as a fuel for passenger vehicles is significantly less efficient that using batteries due to losses associated with converting electricity into hydrogen and then back to electricity.
4. Hydrogen is a dangerous and volatile gas that is difficult to store and transport, is it safe to be building hydrogen facilities in urban environments?
5. BEVs cost less to operate, maintain, and are far more reliable, efficient and have superior performance, compared with internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles.
6. Most passenger vehicle manufacturers are shifting to BEV production and are phasing out ICE vehicles. They are not producing or selling hydrogen powered vehicles.
1, not everyone can have home charging, they live in apartments, have no off-street parking, renting so can't install a charger.
2. You only need one station, which is equivalent to building hundreds of EV charging stations
3. You can store more energy on the vehicle than battery.
4.petrol, LPG, lithium batteries are all volatile and yet we use them everyday without any training
5. Your comparing BEV to ICE as a reason to choose BEV over hydrogen... You might as well compare to jet engines.
6. Except for the ones that aren't. Groupthink doesn't mean it's the right choice
At one stage everyone said the world was flat and one person said it wasn't, who was right?.
@@Robert-cu9bm Ok lets see.
1. True, however many strata managers and body corporates are now adding EV charging facilities, public charging facilities are also being expanded. So, in the near future this will no longer be an issue. For the typical urban use case, a standard 10amp power outlet is sufficient for an overnight charge. Compare that with with building hydrogen storage facilities and transporting pressurised hydrogen.
2. "You only need one station", are you serious? By your logic, only one petrol station is need between Sydney and Canberra.
3. True, hydrogen has a higher energy density than batteries. That does not change the fact that BEVs are far more efficient than hydrogen powered Fuel Cell Vehicles (FCV).
4. Does not change the fact that Hydrogen and petrol are far more volatile than a battery. I certainly would not want to live next door to a petrol or hydrogen station.
5. Ok, reasons to choose BEV over Hydrogen FCV:
a. You can charge an EV at home, for free if you have solar.
b. You can't buy an FCV in Australia and most passenger vehicle manufacturers are shifting to EV production, not FCVs. Toyota have been pushing hydrogen for years but are now realising they have backed the wrong technology and are also developing BEVs while they try and slow the transition to BEVS.
c. Hydrogen filling station infrastructure is practically non existent in Australia, "less that a handful" of "beta" stations in testing. Compare that with rapidly expanding EV charging networks, both domestically and internationally.
d. BEV are more efficent than FCVs, and likely cheaper to operate and maintain than a FCV.
e. Electricity is easily accessible and cheaper compared to hydrogen.
f. BEV prices are falling as battery technology is rapidly advancing and economies of scale are being reached.
6. Not a case of group think or flat earth theory. VW, Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, Stellantis have all obviously done their research and due diligence and have concluded BEVs are the future. Toyota have invested huge amounts in Hydrogen technology but have been completely wrong footed and are now left scrambling to delay the invevitable.
@@mrdecarte1
1. You clearly haven't tried charging a EV overnight on a 10amp plug.... You get less than 10km per hour.
Then you have fact you would be quadrupling the electricity use of all households, so all the network would need to upgraded at major cost, all paid for by the consumer in higher electric prices.
The network can't handle summer Aircon use now, that's nothing compared to the energy consumption of EVs
2. Let me rephrase that, 1 hydrogen station is equivalent to hundred of EV chargers. Probably more, because half the chargers never work.
3. Yes they are, but efficiency doesn't matter when it comes to convenience... ICE is 30% efficient and yet we use them everyday.
4. yet, only EVs have been told not to park in your garage due to the risk of burning down your house.
5
A. Not free, you have to pay at least 10k for the set up, probably more of you want to get enough solar to charge your car.
Then you have the fact, you would only be able to use your car at night as your changing during the day.
B. You couldn't by a Tesla a decade ago, so that means they shouldn't have gone forward with BEV'S.
How have they realised they backed the wrong horse when they're continuing development of hydrogen. If that was they case you would stop.
C. So was EV infrastructure until it was, not a reason to stop development.
D. More efficient True, cheaper debatable we'll have to wait and see.
E. But not as convenient as hydrogen. Fast filling times is far better and more convenient.
F. Same will be said for hydrogen.
6. Toyota didn't become the largest by making stupid decisions.
@@Robert-cu9bm ok lets address your points.
1. I own a EV and yes, I charge on a 10 AMP outlet overnight, which is perfectly adequate given that like most people, I drive less than 60 km a day and my vehicle has 450km of range, so no need to charge every day. Also, a 32 AMP single phase EVSE will add 45 km of range p/h, 3 phase about 75 km p/h. As for your predictions of increased electricity usage, this will be offset by the continued uptake of solar and home battery storage. There is actually surplus energy being generated and fed back into the grid. Large scale battery storage can and is addressing this. So i'm afraid EV armagedon will not happen.
2. "Half the chargers never work", lol, Have you ever charged at a Tesla Supercharger station?
"1 hydrogen station is equivalent to hundred of EV chargers" Based on what? , video states "you can only fill up so many cars per day"and they had to wait for an hour to use the station. They were also only able to fill the cars up to 2/3 full so they had even less range than
current long range Tesla BEVs. So, 1 hydrogen station like the one in the video is most definitely not equivalent to a 100 EV chargers. A Tesla Supercharger station typically has 8 or more stalls, with cars charging for 10 to 30 minutes. Stations in the US or Europe are even larger. I think you miss the point, with a BEV you primarily charge at home, this is not possible with a Hydrogen FCV like those shown in the video.
3. You can have both efficiency and convience. As a BEV driver, I love the convenience of being able to charge my car at home for much less than I used pay for petrol and not having to visit petrol stations. And I only use DC fast chargers for road trips, plug in and go for a coffee, break.
4. I suspect you are referring to the General Motors Chevy Bolt recall in the US? That is a corner case, does not apply to all BEVs and is cherry picking. If you check US statistics you will find that ICE vehilce fires per miles driven far exceed BEV fires.
5.
a. Solar can power a house as well as a BEV, which can be charged during the day or night. Yes, there is an intial outlay but there is a also a return on investment (lower power bills, no petrol, oil changes, less servicing etc.)
b. Toyota have not relased any hydrogen FCV into many markets and are now talking about producing BEVs. Google "Toyota Beyond Zero". Also, Toyota haven't even built any Hydrogen stations in Australia, compare that approach with Tesla's supercharger network and other EV charging networks such as Chargefox, Evie, NRMA.
c. The Market will determine development, most passenger vehcile manufacturers have already chosen BEVs over Hydrogen FCVs, for the passenger car use case.
d. Indeed
e. You obviously did not pay attentention to the video when they were "filling" the cars at the Hydrogen station. They had to wait for an hour and could only fill up 2/3 of a tank due to pressue issues. How many hyrdogen stations are there in Australia, less than a handful? I don't see anthying convenient in that. Its actually much more convenient to plug in your BEV, take a break, grab a coffee or something to eat and return to BEV in 10 to 20 minutes. No standing around at a bowser and then having to line up to pay a cashier.
f. I doubt it, passenger vehicle manufactures are shifting to BEV production. Hydrogen will most likely be restricted to heavy vehicles and fleet vehicles. That's the case in the ACT, the goverment's fleet of 20 Hyundai Nexo vehicles are fuled at the Fyshwick Hydrogen station shown in the video. Probably the only Hydrogen passenger vehicles operating in Australia.
6. Agree, but they have certiainly made some stupid decisions of late, bet the house on Hydrogen but the entire passenger vehicel industry is going BEV. Are you familiar with the phrase "past performance is no guarantee of future performace"?
@@mrdecarte1
1. Exactly, too slow from a 10amp plug.
Surplus electricity at what time of the day??..
You do understand power cable can only handle a certain amount, right?.. Why do you think the providers are now pushing for smart solar so they can turn it off.
2.so everyone should own a Tesla?
Based on the fact it takes the same time to refuel as a ICE vehicle (as they said this is a beta station, so not set up yet for full capacity) vs charging a BEV(which is over a hour)
I now live in Europe and can tell you the charging network is unreliable, you can not take a road trip with confidence that you won't be stuck somewhere. Most the stalls don't work, and often find the one that does is only 3kw... You gotta love a lot of coffee for that charge.
3. But that's only convenient if you can charge at home and don't travel anywhere. Australians travel lots and tow big things.
4. Does not apply to all? Hyundai, Chevy
Never heard of a petrol car being recalled because it spontaneous combusts .
5. What solar do you have that can charge at night?
less servicing, guess you haven't looked at the service intervals for most manufacturers, often the diesel has the longer one.
you can buy mirai in Europe right now.
The market will determine development, then why do we need to subsidize EV's and ban ICE... That's not very market driven.
Yeah I've had to return after 10 mins too but that's because the charger just stopped working for no reason.
Should we have taken that approach to BEV as well a decade ago?, There's only one station, let's stop all development.
6. Yes, but it's a very good indicator and the only one we have.
Why do you think banks check your payment history? Considering its no guarantee of the future. Do you think your more likely or less likely to do well if you have a good past or a bad one.
A Tesla works for you, but doesn't for the majority of people, which is why EV's only make a few percent of sales.
It's about convenience and cost, not convenient enough and cost too much.
What about the cost of the energy used to produce the hydrogen in the first place? It takes electricity to produce hydrogen - a lot of it. Cut out the middle man and stick with EV, I reckon. You may feel different, and that's fine.
do your research before you posy rubbish.
@@351tgv Do a spell check before you post anything. So you're saying it doesn't take a lot of electricity to produce hydrogen? Please explain.
We will be mostly BEV,but FCEV makes sense,for longer distance,and to use current off peak, much energy is wasted today,FCEV remediates that.
@@paulbedichek2679 Yes, but you have to choose - unless you're in the money.
Hydrogen is can be easily produced with sea waves,wind and solar power instead of burning another fuel. But according to your arguments so what’s the different then . When it comes to electricity for BEV s electricity farms needs much bigger storage capacity to reserve electricity . I can’t explain here please do some research. But when makes hydrogen it doesn’t need such storage. That’s why Hydrogen comes as a fuel. And you must know, if everyone goes for BEVs then current Electricity production is not enough for charges all of them . Until someday fusion generators come..
Hi, from Madrid, Spain.
I don't want a lithium battery's car, I think that is looser vs a combustión car and vs hidrogen car, range, price, weight, recharge times, and recharge cicles. I think the battery's cars Will be little urban.
Bye.
I really like the Toyota.
hydrogen sounds like the answer