I live in central California. Not a single hydrogen station within 100 miles. Fifty percent of my range would be wasted just in refueling. Infrastructure is the issue.
100 miles x 2 x 13 US$ x 2,5 kg/100 miles = 65,-- US$ each trip. My next hydrogen station is about 140 km away. But at least i could tow it with one of my Teslas...
I live in central Sweden and I have a hydrogen station 35 minutes away. So going there to refuel is at least 75 min. Not very convenient. And I still can’t travel where I want as it’s the only station anywhere near. And if breaks you can’t refill at all.
Yup lack of infrastructure, like service station hydrogen pumps is issue but 10 years back it was the same story with charging stations..so finger crossed in 10 years +time, technology will overcome today's EV battery powered vehicles 👍
Maybe. But Tesla is only where it is because they had to build out their own charging network just to sell any cars at all. Nobody making fuel cell cars is doing that, and nobody else is going to do it either. I am a little surprised that Shell, Mobile, etc. haven't already started that. They have the ability to mass produce hydrogen, keeps their oil production going, and they have the gas station base for the installations. It must be that after doing the math that there isn't any possible way to make money at it, and that the refueling cost for the consumer is so far out of whack that it makes gasoline look free.
We live outside Seattle, don't think there is even 1 station in the state, so for 95% of the country it's not even an option. That's one issue with hydrogen is they would have to totally start over building fueling stations, where as with EV you can install chargers anywhere there is power including charging at home as needed.
Excellent video. You managed to make a hydrogen noob semi-knowledgeable in 30 minutes AND delivered a full car review in the process. Thanks for your thoughtful commentary. One of youtube's very best in this space.
@@dandaab2887 The cost of producing and pressurizing hydrogen at home would be astronomical, as it would be tremendously inefficient, and would also be very dangerous. Easily 3x as much electricity consumed as it would take to charge an equivalent BEV, with the added bonus of having an actual bomb in your garage, sitting next to a vehicle that also has more explosive hydrogen tanks + flammable hybrid battery. Does not sound like a good time, and I don't think UL certification could be convinced that it'd be a good time, either.
I can appreciate the ability to operate essentially like a gas car while also getting the benefits of an EV. It's a neat experiment. Maybe in 10 or 15 years as you say, it'll be a mainstream thing, especially for large vehicles. But, battery energy density might also surpass the weight savings offered by then. Time will tell. But in the meantime, I'm waiting on the Nimbus One EV, which alleviates the apartment dweller concern you mention. The Nimbus One is a 3 wheeled reverse trike with an enclosed climate controlled 1+1 cabin and removable batteries which can be carried into your apartment and charged on a dock, should be shipping this year. It's limited to 50mph, but as a city vehicle for apartment dwellers that only goes 94mi on a charge, I don't think that's a problem at all. In fact, I'm going to extend its' use case significantly with the dock by using it for my commute. I'll be able to have a dock at work, meaning I could commute all the way to work on 45mph roads at a cost of an extra 10 minutes of driving vs the highway, re-charge during my shift at work, and I'd have more than enough range to floor it and blast the climate controls, all for $10k, with a 5 year battery warranty. I mention this because of your comments about the sheer weight and excess of EVs, and I agree. We all need to think smaller. And if 99% of my driving is spent alone on my commute to work, I should minimize those costs to myself and to the environment and others as much as possible. I still have my current car I can take on long road trips if need be, but I imagine it'll sit idle most of the time. Plus at $10k for the Nimbus, you could probably get a cheaper gas-powered or hybrid crossover that matches this things' capabilities for those few occasions where you need them, and also buy a Nimbus as your daily commuter, probably for the same price as a BEV SUV or crossover.
That looks like it wouldn't work outside of an urban setting. There's no way I'd want to drive something that small in any of the suburban areas I've lived.
Joseph Wall: Yup. PHEV's reliably fill that transitional role now for long commutes, cold commutes, those with range anxiety, etc. But batteries are improving MASSIVELY, and at some point with superb battery reliability and longevity, low cost, and relatively massive range with moderate size and weight, something like 500 miles will be PLENTY, with chargers as common as gas stations are today in two or three decades. So given the cost and complexity, while hybrids are a GREAT transitional solution (a point many BEV fanbois and I disagree on, and I'm a long term Tesla shareholder, but facts are facts), but they'll lose the war on economics once today's real world BEV issues like cost and range aren't really issues for 99%+ of people. It's a question of WHEN, not if.
We have the Ioniq 5 also and it's great. Every morning have a full battery and it's ready to go. Seems like with hydrogen you may as well use the power needed to produce hydrogen to just charge an EV and skip the hydrogen part. I think most states don't even have 1 fulling station so right now it's not even worth getting excited about. Even in California he said it sounds like you can't leave your home area if you buy one. It would be billions of dollars and a decade to build up infrastructure for them and that same money would be competing with EV infrastructure. Long term the tech may become smaller so hydrogen may work as a range extender, normally just charge and drive but on long trips flip on the hydrogen to add miles.
Hydrogen will end up being really big in commercial and industrial spaces. It makes much more sense for long haul trucking than BEVs. BEVs are fine for personal vehicles.
HFCEVs have the same infrastructure problem that BEVs have, but like 100 times worse. Hydrogen makes a lot of sense for commercial vehicles, but i think BEVs are better for consumers due to the weight and range issues.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
@@nc3826 Battery swapping is an interesting idea for BEVs, but the issue is that the batteries are often so structural to the car, it becomes exceptionally difficult to do in a production setting. Battery swapping Aluminum batteries, or small motorcycle batteries can be done and has been tested, but i don't think that tech will really make it anywhere with larger vehicles due to the weight and structural integration of the batteries.
@@ender25ish Geely Has A Battery Swapping Cement Trucks. That has close to a megawatt-hour of capacity. Do you consider them large vehicles? The battery swapping vs structural integration meme, seems to have some validity superficially, but does not hold up under scrutiny. All the EVs that, I know of have removable battery packs, so what is less structurally integrated, for a battery swappable pack? Also "cell to pack" integration has been taking place inside battery packs, in recent years, which is also taking place in battery swappable EVs. And comparably sized battery swappable and non-swappable EVs tend to have similar weights. So I have yet to find any validation of the battery swapping vs structural integration meme. Please elucidate me if you have ? While battery swapping has literally hundreds of advantages. With you mentioned a few of the obscure ones. But there are some additional costs and complexity. Which will slow its adoption in the low ending market. Plus the fact that it's been, for the most part disregarded in the West.
@@nc3826 There are no production consumer vehicles in which the battery can be removed and swapped quickly. As of now, all of the BEVs in the US are designed around the battery and its not an easy component to remove on the fly since its so tightly integrated. Tesla had a version of the Model S that could do it, but it was a modified version and that system never came to fruition. There is also a complete lack of battery standards. If such a system were to be implemented any station would have to be able to swap any battery and replace it with an equivalent battery, something that seems nigh impossible considering a Hummer battery is vastly different from a Bolt battery. Its an interesting idea but i don't see it catching on in the US for consumer sedans and trucks. Commercial vehicles it may make more sense, since you can standardize those within the company that they are owned by. It would also allow you to charge batteries more slowly which would prolong their life by producing less heat and use less energy to charge in the first place. Like i said tho, i don't think its practical nor possible with today's EVs and EV mindset.
Hi Alex, note one thing that puts FCEV a major disadvantage. When fuel cell decays, you lose absolute max power output, which is much less acceptable than mileage decay in EVs…
I have only tested a Nexo and it’s a really nice car. Love the technology and hydrogen cars might had a future if the manufacturers actually hade made a real effort making them a complete package. Just like Tesla did with superchargers the car makers need to make hydrogen stations convenient and plentiful. I live pretty close to a hydrogen station but with a hydrogen car I would be stuck here. Fuel cells probably will have many uses in the future but just not for cars in any meaningful way.
the greener the hydrogen, the more inefficient and costly it is to produce. And that's before the efficiency loss of using it in the fuel cell stack. While battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. And it is used on a much larger scale than, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the world. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
I'm hoping Hydrogen will have a chance to advance once commercial applications start looking at it. From jet liners to even semi trucks. Once big unjustly focuses on Hydrogen it should hopefully be easier to adopt to consumer needs
It's SO INEFFICIENT. The number of EV miles you could get from the power used to create the hydrogen powering this thing DWARFS the Nexo. And that is NOT a small matter! You could power 3 Tesla Model Yes for the power used to power a single Nexo an identical distance. That's less grid power sucked up, less infrastructure needed, less risk of power outages and, yes, far fewer CO2 emissions. Hydrogen is a dead end technology. And for the record that BMW mentioned is not actually going to be put into mass production. Can we just stop with the Hydrogen BS? It's not going to happen. Hell, Shell SHUT their only Hydrogen stations in the UK last year - all of them - because they weren't making any money. Our Hydrogen infrastructure has SHRUNK. Can we not put a frikkin bullet in the back of the head of this technology already and move on?
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
I agree with everything in this video. I wouldn't buy one because I don't fit into the category that can have one but I'm glad we have more than just one solution to ICE vehicles. Some people hate that BEV's aren't the ONLY solution which is just plain idiocy. Regardless, I am very appreciative of all of the information from all counterpoints. I didn't know more than half of the information in this video and I've watched all of your FCEV videos. Thank you for being so thorough and presenting all of the information. I always appreciate the real-world perspective answers to all of arguments that naysayers use on paper to discredit non-BEV products. I'm hoping BMW, Hyundai, and Toyota continue their FCEV research and products. Depending solely on a single source of fuel was never a good idea even without the current state of global affairs OR even global warming. Developing FCEV makes sense given that BEV advancements could literally be used in this Nexo (i.e. bigger battery) to make it even better than BEV's and ICE's thus far.
I would love to see this tech be used where full electric hard, like a semi truck that does a repeat route and can have refiling built on site. Seems like it might work better than a giant battery for many larger companies fleets.
My main problem with hydrogen is that it's far less efficient than an EV in total energy used. The vast majority of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels as well. Maybe if hydrogen from renewable energy becomes more common, fuel cells could make sense in some cases. I think the advances in batteries and fast charging will make EVs the better choice for commuting at least.
We drove the 2017 Honda Clarity Fuel Cell in Southern California for 60,000 miles. At the time Hydrogen was $9.95 a kilogram. It’s currently at $26.00 a kilogram at many stations. In Honda I averaged around 55 miles per Kilogram driving like a regular car. The $15,000 allowance for fuel is nice but figure out how many miles you drive and do the $$ calculations before purchasing/leasing to avoid surprises.
Even at $9 it's still more expensive than gasoline. This very niche at the moment. Calling this an EV is like Toyota claiming their hybrids are "self charging" EVs. Except now you lose the efficiency and daily 100% of an EV, as well as the plentiful gas stations of traditional ICE vehicles.
@@Allan_A After driving a fuel cell for 3 years my impression is that this technology is great for commercial trucks especially those on a set route around an area like Los Angeles that can return at night to a dedicated filling station (Toyota has one at Port) but from a regular consumer standpoint, trying to make this work seems very far off in the future.
@@jethrojackson yes, I think that would be a good use case. In the case of commercial trucks it could be better than batteries due to weight limits, etc.
I appreciate the coverage, and it's excellent as always. That being said, these just aren't going anywhere. I'm guessing we'll see high DC fast charger density and mandates for apartments to install charging (or just competition demanding it) before hydrogen can get off the ground. I doubt we'll ever see nearly anyone outside of true car nerds buying these consumer hydrogen vehicles.
I think HD trucks will be rolling on fuel cells in a decade or less. I mean the consumer grade ones, but additionally I think maybe trains and class 8 trucks could be great options for them as well.
Zachary: Agreed. And in CA there are already regulations mandating home level 2 charging for many if not all new dwellings, so that's clearly doable. After a while the market will demand that.
@@sipher3516: Class 8 could work, but there will be no need or want for it UNLESS it makes economic sense. Tesla has already proven its semi can provide MASSIVE savings in a few years just from charging vs. diesel. The same principle applies to hydrogen unless proven otherwise. The network is less of a problem, as there are FAR fewer truck stops than gas stations, for example -- but the economics seems insurmountable to me.
I love sedans. Hydrogen cant be produced in mass, we already have electricity everywhere. When the state of cali stops funding hydrogen, its dead. I will never understand why people are okay driving up to 30 minutes round trip to fuel up and say its only 5 minutes, with an ev you charge at home, it takes 10 seconds to plug and unplug. you cant beat that.
Great explanation on a high level of where this industry is and how it works. The clean scalability of hydrogen production should be the focus and is key to the solution making sense. Energy density will be increasing with batteries and EV’s will benefit the most from this. Great analysis of the Nexo.
Gary Clark: Unless the economics makes sense, it's a non-starter for private vehicle owners. As BEV's will clearly get cheaper and better and have lots of momentum and backing, I just don't see hydrogen competing for private vehicles until proven otherwise. They are already doing OK for things like city buses, but whether that competes with BEV buses over the longer run as batteries improve remains to be seen. Tesla has already proven the physics works for BEV semis, and they'll only improve, so no need for hydrogen there unless and until it gets CHEAP.
@@rogergeyer9851 The problem with energy density is that, barring a radical new tech, it's going to be incrementa for batteriesl, at best. Fuel cells, by contrast, will themselves become more energy efficient over time. For instance, the 2024 Nexo model is planned to roll out with a next-gen fuel cell that will get you 500+mi on the same tank of hydrogen that the 2023 does ~350mi in. Despite having a massive head start, what consumer BEV gets 500mi per charge? Nevermind this doesn't address the other improvements hydrogen vehicles can make: hold more hydrogen. Consumer hydrogen vehicles currently store at 70MPa. Heavy duty vehicles store at even greater pressures. If that storage tech goes to consumer vehicles, you can hold more hydrogen per volume, which makes the vehicles' range even further. Back to batteries: there is a *hard* lithium cap on this planet. The rush to BEV all cars is ravaging land for minerals. Without a transformative approach to energy storage, battery-powered vehicles will become increasingly more destructive to the environment and more expensive to acquire, before being unable to manufacture at all. Will polymer batteries change the game? Who knows! Even in its infant state, hydrogen storage negates the wasteful and harmful mining operations needed to acquire battery materials. (Did I mention that China has a great deal of these? We're swapping OPEC oil for Chinese lithium here...)
Fuel cells haven't reached anywhere near their peak efficiency. The 2024 Nexo (which were recently delayed) are projected to have a range of 500mi on the same amount of hydrogen as the current 2023 models. Short of a revolution in battery/capacitor energy storage, fuel cells have a much higher ceiling in making the same amount of storage volume take you farther. I think it's telling that all of these manufacturers and the billions invested in innovation are stuck at a ~350mi battery range. Fuel cells, meanwhile, are continuing to improve their range with arguably less large-scale development.
Eh, I don’t see FCEVs gaining much popularity for passenger vehicles at all. If BEV infrastructure isn’t good, FCEV infrastructure is straight up garbage, I’ve heard of lines that last up to an hour at fuel cell stations, removing the benefit of “fast” refueling all together. It also costs more to refuel than the average ICE car even with higher gas prices. Hydrogen tanks can take up a considerable amount of room on the interior compared to batteries on the floor in a BEV, take a look at the 2nd gen Mirai, big car, extremely cramped interior, Nexo seems to do it better tho. Also, they’re not efficient, needing what’s equivalent to 200kwh to go 380 miles in a car the size of an IONIQ 5 and that is lighter is kinda ridiculous.
People hate hydrogen cars for the wrong reasons. The range and fuel time is general better than most economy evs. There was a lot of momentum years ago when the cost was $16/kg. Now in CA it’s $30/kb and momentum has shifted with no new stations. Why? Because the lobbies and special interests do a great job at killing hydrogen infrastructure and branding HEVs as inferior to EVs when in fact it’s only because of infrastructure or the lack of. Blame governments for not building more stations because that would change the perception and expand access
Also, the global platinum resource is even more limited than Li battery materials. It does NOT seem any possible that fuel cell tech can evolve into low- or no-platinum form while delivering minimal viable performance.
Not only platinum, but iridium is also used in fuel cells. Both are actual rare earth materials. The only shortage of lithium is in refinement to battery grade Li. So, hydrogen is really stuck as there really isn't any viable alternatives to platinum and iridium.
@@igeekoneyou're making it seem the fuel cell stack is using a ton of platinum. but in reality it only uses 30 to 45 gram of platinum. to put it in perspective, catalytic converter uses about 7 gram of platinum which hundreds of millions ICE cars on the road have right now. platinum from a a used fuel cell or catalytic converter can be melted down and recycle easily and cheaply. the lithium amount in a 70 kwh bev is a whopping 63 kilogram! that's not including cobalt and nickel and recycling them is expensive. you have to use electro chemistry to reverse the the process that turn used lithium into it's pure lithium form. that's extremely expensive.
Hydrogen has alot of major issues that needs to be addressed but as things are refined and new breakthroughs in the field are discovered i think it has real potential to replace gas and electric vehicles as they are the best of both worlds with the least amount of emissions
I like this vehicle based on your review, and am looking forward to fuel cell tech based on your analysis. I just searched the current availability of Nexo in Canada. As you indicated, one must really want the Nexo, as I get a sense this needs to be ordered, in the times we are in, I guess a long wait time.
I’m glad that Alex and others are willing to experiment with these. It’s not for me. But I learned a few things that I didn’t know. First and foremost that Hyundai makes a hydrogen fueled vehicle. I thought Toyota was the only make with one. The nexo seems much more practical than the Mirai. I also didn’t know that most people lease them, and the refueling is included in the price. I wonder how much the purchase or lease cost factors in the refueling expenses. If you drive a lot, a $500 lease price which includes fuel isn’t a bad deal. I’ve heard of there being occasional issues at refueling stations. And that’s a major drag given how far it often is between fueling station. Given that concern I think it’s a good idea to stop at a station with enough reserve range to make it to another station if necessary in the early years of hydrogen. I hope they can produce more clean hydrogen, and at a cheaper cost given that it’s the most common element on earth. I think a lot of people today have discounted hydrogen, when it might still be a big part of the future for larger vehicles of people who don’t have home charging options if just a few things can be ironed out.
Hyundai is leasing it to consumers for far below what it costs to make, and then subsidizing the expensive fuel. Doesn't sound like an sustainable business model ;-) Definitely a beta test you pay to drive, partially covering the auto maker's costs. You have to be pretty dedicated to being an experimenter to find that desirable A couple quibbles: You should not need two charging stops in a Tesla Model Y (the rough equivalent of the Nexo) to drive from the SF bay area to LA. The Model Y has a stated range of 330 miles - but realistically you won't get that much going 75-80 MPH down I5. But even blasting down the road along with everyone else, you should easily make it with lots to spare, with a single charge stop half way. Green hydrogen, made from renewable wind and solar isn't so green when you consider that well over 50% of the green energy is wasted in the process of making and using it. That means that even though the hydrogen may be green, making the hydrogen used up energy that could have replaced fossil fuel to power the grid. And therefore it is not wrong to say that essentially all the power for the NEXO ended up (indirectly) causing power plants to burn fossil fuel equivalent to what the NEXO used. The only way the hydrogen could be considered truly green is if there was excess solar and wind that would otherwise have been curtailed (AKA not used.) At the moment, that is rarely true, and as grid scale batteries are added to soak up and later release any temporary surplus, it will get even more rare.
Hydrogen seems like a good idea if you commute but there is no way my wife will EVER go back to filling up at gas stations. We plug her Leaf in about 3 times a week and that’s all she needs. Big trucks would definitely benefit more from this tech than a full EV conversion.
flyingvengeance: Definite first world problem, re filling up at a public station being a "problem". I still think that over time, converting many gas pumps at gas stations to DC fast chargers makes a LOT of sense for commuters, etc. MANY people can't conveniently charge and home, and MANY people need to travel and need reliable charging options.
The technology really is advancing but hydrogen is still just an energy storage medium, and with the fuel cell stack only 60% efficient, a PHEV can beat it on convenience and efficiency. As you say though a PHEV hydrogen may make it more competitve. Another option, which I'm not sure why it hasn't been developed more is using a reformer so you can actually run off ethanol instead of hydrogen, the efficiencies are still fairly high. Nissan was testing this in South America where ethanol is more plentiful, a phev version of that would be interesting.
I have to disagree on some points. At the end of the video, you state that the technology is at its infancy, that is is nowhere near where Tesla was when they brought their first EV to market. And that is just wrong. Fuel cell technology is old tech, it's ancient tech. The principles have existed since the 19th century, we flew to the moon on hydrogen fuel cells (it's the oxygen tank required for the fuel cell that exploded on Apollo 13), GM was already doing experiments with hydrogen powered vehicles in the '60s as well. Toyota started its own hydrogen program, of which the Mirai is the result, back in the '90s, almost 30 years ago. So how can it be that after all that time, we should call this a technology in it's infancy? The problem is not understanding the technology. The problem is finding a way to build it in an affordable way. Because research has shown that scaling up the production of a fuel cell stack does not reduce the cost, on the contrary. Mass production could actually make it even more expensive to produce. Not every production process lends itself for economies of scale. There's also a different issue for me, and it is something that you have glossed over imho. Yes, you mentioned the inefficiency of the car and the inefficiency of the fuelstack, but you forgot to mention the total inefficiency from power plant to wheels. You are looking at a total energy loss of over 65%. Compared to a battery electric vehicle, you need to produce roughly 3 to 4 times as much energy to drive a certain distance with a FCEV. And in a world where we are talking about energy shortage, that's a lot of energy. Add to that the fact that we already have a shortage on industrial hydrogen, which is one of the reasons the fuel is so expensive. The car might not have phantom drain on the electrical side, but you are forgetting another part. Hydrogen has the atomic number 1, it's the lightest, smallest atom that can exist. It escapes from everywhere, especially under the high pressure in a hydrogen tank. Sure, it's not a massive loss, but after a few weeks? You will notice it. Plenty of battery EVs on the other hand that you can park for months with no real loss of range. Believe me, my BEV has been parkerd for a few months when I was abroad. A decade ago, a lot of people in the industry said that we would see FCEV for bigger trucks and the likes. Looking at the world today, it looks like that is not even happening. Most manufacturers are now betting on battery electric. Had you asked me 5 years ago what the better product was, a Tesla Semi or a Nikola One, I would have said the Nikola. We all know how that one turned out in the end. Nikola was accused and found guilty of fraud and has since launched a battery electric truck. While I do still believe there is a place for hydrogen in the energy transition, for example in aviation, shipping, maybe even rail transport I do not really give it a bright future in road transport. For that, it is too expensive, too inefficient and it will always be just a decade away, as it has been for over half a century.
As much as I would like hydrogen to be used and as potentially the greenest of transportation options, I don’t think the economics will ever be persuasive for personal use. Industrial uses probably, but for personal use FCEVs will always loose the total energy efficiency battle to BEVs because you have the energy loss on the fuel cell stack on top of the battery to motor power loss. And unless you are willing to use fossil fuels to generate the hydrogen, which negates any green benefit, hydrogen will always be more expensive than pure electricity, so will always be more expensive to drive than BEVs unfortunately
the greener the hydrogen, the more inefficient and costly it is to produce. And that's before the efficiency loss of using it in the fuel cell stack. While battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
I recently bought a Nexo off-lease for $16,000. A luxury vehicle with high tech fun for lower than the price of a high-mileage four-banger. I'm comfortable with the "experiment" side of your remarks, but let's not forget the Mirai has existed for 10 years and many of those older cars are still going strong without degradation. I live in an area with good fueling option. But the problem with the Nexo comes down to Maintenance: Hyundai has several thousand of these in California... And only four service locations. Hyundai needs to step up and offer this machine from more dealerships or at least certify their service teams to service the Nexo.
Moved to California from the east coast and always dreamt of driving a fcev and do my part for the environment...got a good deal on a preowned nexo 2019. Performance and comfort are great but have to mention a few of downsides/surprises to be aware of...a) know for sure Progressive declined to provide insurance and had to go with State farm (lost my years of loyalty status). Would recommend calling insurance companies before purchase. b) hydrogen costs in the Los Angeles area is about $22 per kg. Full tank (5.5 kg) will set you behind by about $110 but provide a range of 370 miles.
Axion: And this after decades of development and research from the likes of Toyota. At least BEV's are making rapid progress, now that there is enough economic momentum to make BEV battery research have potential huge payoffs.
Seeing the almost arbitrary array of control buttons and switch gear in the Nexo really highlights the exquisiteness of the design which has gone into the Genesis GV60 dash board/cabin which similarly has these buttons divorced from a central infotainment screen. The comparison is so stark - beautifully elegant in the Genesis - a dog’s dinner in the Nexo! it’s a real testament to Genesis’ design team and probably answers why so few manufacturers have attempted it. Well done Genesis! Sorry a bit off topic but felt compelled to comment.
Tony Roberts: "Dog's dinner". Reminds me of Gordon Ramsay... I find it really surprising that companies don't pay more attention to design, re standards and ease of use. But I spent my life living with the growth of computer technology from my start in high school in 1976 through now. And poor design and complexity and lack of standards, even as the designs evolve fairly rapidly has been a CONSTANT problem, IMO. I could keep up in my 30's. Now I'm just tired of it as I just want to USE the blasted things, vs. play with them and try to expand their capabilities.
As long as there isn't infrastructure; hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are paddles on a poodle.The entire San Joaquin Valley has 1 station in Fresno County -- at Harris Ranch.
Alex, thank you for the awesome video. Are you sure that Hyundai is offering the fuel card (15k) on used "CPO" Nexo's? If so, this will make the decision for me between the Miria and the Nexo. I spent the weekend looking at used Mirais in the LA area (i live in the Central Valley and we only have 1 station), but i think the Nexo is more practical. Sadly, I cannot find any information about the fuel card on the Nexo.
This would remove the main advantage that electric cars have over ICE cars which is you can charge at home. I do 99 % of my charging at home. This would require a massive new infrastructure. It's already difficult for non Telsa EV's and most of them are charging at home too. The whole concept seems DOA to me.
@@ALMX5DP True. I'm thinking that a solar powered EV could eventually be a good option for apartment dwellers in certain parts of the country. The Aptera looks like it might make it into production. I don't think it's a solution for most people but it's a first step.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
Alex, What happens in cold climates? The trail of pure water piddling from the tailpipe will ice up the roadways. Is there a little salt shaker attachment to keep the streets navigable? 🤔
The car itself is great, but here in Sacramento, most of the pumps are offline and there are frequent long lines. This is despite the fuel cost rising by over 50% at the end of 2022. I was able to make the Nexo work as a daily driver for about 1.5 years before I had to buy a backup car. Would not buy another unless hydrogen becomes ubiquitous.
I'd prefer standards and organization re all those buttons, but such buttons are FAR better than a giant screen with functions buried behind layers of menus while you're trying to drive, like Teslas and increasingly, others. I don't even like messing with the screen to change the music (vs. using the traditional radio buttons and knobs setup), while driving a standard ICE car like a Toyota Camry with a 7 inch touch screen.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. And it's nice to know Alex has a brother
Regardless of what you think the future of Hydrogen FCV is, the tech is amazing when you step back and think about it. Just 15 pounds of Hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, drives this car 380miles. That's incredible
It takes 39-48 kWh of energy to produce enough hydrogen to drive 60 miles (1 kg). An EV only takes 18-23 kWh to do the same. Hydrogen passenger cars have been "a decade away" for fifty years and will be that way for another 50 if they can't improve the efficiency.
Very much in the future. The EV infrastructure is still pretty poor but Hydrogen does not really exist. You have to transport the hydrogen fuel, as they do with Petrol & diesel. Should be expensive too.
Fuel cells have such great potential. If Toyota/Hyundai really wanted hydrogen to take off, they should've put in the necessary investment and built out a hydrogen fueling network.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
@@nc3826 Swapping won't work. Multiple brands would need to use a standard which is then taking away much of their competitive advantage of defining their own performance specs of their models. It works in China because they can enforce what occurs. Here, it would need to be GM swap stations, Ford, swap stations, Toyota swap stations, etc. and that isn't going to happen.
@@davidmccarthy6061 thank you, for being so original, I've never heard any of these memes before.... but don't look Now, It's already in Europe, SO It must be a Chinese Communist plot .... fwiw Multiple brands already use a battery swapping network created by a battery supplier.... And it's based on a module design, so different size battery packs Configurations can be installed...
I used to discredit hydrogen fuel cells because I thought, "Hey, this hydrogen is just coming from oil/gas production." But oil and gas are currently vital not only to fuel and transportation, but materials (where do you think the plastic in your computer or cell phone comes from?). So we will continue to need it in the future. Also, given: constrained and politically fraught lithium supply, massive weight of battery-only EVs, charging times for BEVs, lack of meaningful lithium battery recycling, lack of charging infrastructure for dense urban dwellers or rural folks, and range anxiety, I am beginning to think that Hydrogen fuel-cell EVs hold a promising and important place in our personal- and commercial-transportation future. Plus, I did not know that California's hydrogen fuel cell experiment mandates a certain proportion of 100% renewable hydrogen - or that 100% renewable sources of hydrogen even existed in today's market. What a cool car. Thanks for your additional insights, Alex. It helped me to better understand Toyota's (and Hyundai and GM's) continued interest in developing hydrogen fuel-cell EVs.
No matter who you are - a person or a company - electricity is cheaper when you produce on your roof. Very, very cheap. Cheap are the hydro-electricity and atomic-electricity, too. But for Hydrogen we have a lot of losses because the process from electricity to cars involves a lot of steps and losses: - producing electricity (like electric vehicles that stop losses here); - make Hydrogen with electrolysis (loss of 25-30% of energy); - transport Hydrogen to distribution stations, and the storage (loss of 5-10% of energy); - conversion back to electricity (loss of 40-50% of energy). A total of 70-90% loss. What is the point of using hydrogen?! The price of batteries is going down quickly, they are safer than 5 years ago, the production of Lithium is growing, and the technology is better and better.
It may be possible to make hydrogen more mainstream if hydrogen production can be done at home much like EV charging. Here are some rough numbers: electrolysis is about 65% efficient in energy conversion to hydrogen, it then takes another 1 kWh per kg hydrogen to compress it to liquid at a pressure needed for filling the car. 1 kg hydrogen gets roughly about 70 miles of range. So that’s an additional energy cost of about 5%, rounding up. So let’s say that’s an energy conversion efficiency of 60%. Compared to EVs, battery charging is about 85% efficient. That’s not too crazy of a difference. With the right equipment, at-home hydrogen fill ups could potentially work.
Alex, the greener the hydrogen, the more inefficient and costly it is to produce. And that's before the efficiency loss of using it in the fuel cell stack. (plus with all the subsidies for fuel cell vehicles and Hydrogen it's hard to tell what the true cost is?) While battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. And it is used on a much larger scale than, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the world. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
Until technology allows small fuel stations to efficiently create their own hydrogen (on-site electrolysis?), this will remain a niche fuel/powertrain . Perhaps it could work for long haul trucking first, where the larger stations could hypothetically accommodate fuel production before the tech could be neighborhood-station sized.
H2 might work for large trucks, boats, etc, but I'm not interesting in sitting on a tank of compressed H2 while I drive. Ford Pinto brings back too many memories...
Believe it or not this tank is safer to sit on than any lithium battery. Toyota demonstrated how fast hydrogen evaporates once released. To prove the safety of the tank , they shot at it and nothing happened. In slow motion video (million FPS lol) it looks like popping a rigid balloon
@@nc3826 Probably, but the Pinto reminds us that liquid fuels are at best, Messy. Suggesting a solution to transportation suing technology just as expensive and complicated to maintain as Gas, is a bald face attempt by OEMs to keep their lock on the wallets of drivers everywhere. Just because you can make H2 work, doesn't mean it is a good solution. Building out the infrastructure to deliver it would be as complicated as gas and diesel and detract from the infrastructure work to being clean and easy to maintain charging to the masses. Using H2 in combustion outside of airplanes and cargo ships is just silly...
No, hydrogen is stored at 10,000 psi in the nexo and mirai, meaning you'd need a 10,000 psi capable fueling pump. This is not currently viable for personal use
The UK, is wasting money on trying find a way to pipe hydrogen to the home To replace natural gas.... So they can keep using the old crappy boilers....
@@aliendroneservices6621 hydrogen or synthetic hydrocarbons would be far less efficient... Maybe they should replace their old crappy boilers, with efficient heat pumps? Since they already have a greener grid than the US on average.... KISS...
Now "this" works. It's affordable and makes sense, and far more friendly to the environment overall. There's not a single, credible engineer that will choose an EV over a hydrogen vehicle.
Hydrogen might be a good option if 1) the infrastructure existed outside of the handful of tiny markets around the world and 2) the hydrogen could be acquired in large numbers from a reasonable source (getting hydrogen from fossil fuels is a no go). The energy conversion efficiency is also pretty poor, especially if you consider the amount of energy required to generate the hydrogen in the first place. Right now, hydrogen as a fuel source is about where EVs were in the 90s or early 2000s. Basically no infrastructure, no desirable vehicles being made, meaning they’re cars built for a tiny fraction of a percentage of the car buying market. For me, I’ll stick with my Ioniq5. It’s way more interesting, way more powerful, and way more energy efficient. 90% of my “refueling” happens at home, so charging/refueling times are irrelevant. Almost all of the energy for charging is provided by hydroelectric, and the public charging infrastructure (when I need it) actually exists, and it exists across the country.
I agree FCV Hydrogen is the future. Both Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo are fantastic vehicles. The biggest problem is infrastructure in the US. I've been driving Honda Clarity FCV and Toyota Mirai for, total six years. More FCVs have sold, but they have not built additional Hydrogen stations for six years. So many FCVs have been waiting for a refill at Hydrogen stations for a long time. One near my home was closed for good. 2nd one closed for 3 months due to mechanical issues. 3rd one is only running so far. The situation is outrageous. People are upset and mad. If you think BEV gives you range anxiety? FCV gives you refill anxiety. Go, lease Tesla; the price is way down, long driving range, a good battery, and a spacious cabin. Model Y is cheaper than Toyota Mirai. Fuel Cell technology is excellent, but I have life.
Doris T: They can be "fantastic" all they want, but as long as the economics makes NO sense, even IF the hydrogen network were well built out, they won't catch on in the consumer market.
These are definitely cool vehicles from an engineering standpoint, regardless of the suspect economics of the fuel and infrastructure. However, to go on a nerd rant, the spec figures I see get quoted by HFCV marketing is just plain disingenuous - there's no way in heck this gets 67% efficiency, given that it only scored an EPA rating of 60 mpg-e. Maybe just the fuel cell alone is 67% efficient, without accounting for the battery and electric motors losses - but that's pretty lousy, and not something to write home about given that a li-ion battery is about 99% efficient. Given that it's only 60 mpg-e from the EPA figures, almost exactly half the efficiency of a Kona Electric or TMY, so from a tank-to-wheel standpoint there's no way this is much more than 40% efficient.
It is an attractive vehicle, but that large "Hydrogen Powered EV" banner across the side hearkens back to GM's large, garish "Hybrid" banners across some of its large, inefficient hybrid SUVs in the 2000s. Don't do that.
@@amigatommy7 Better the way Alex said: plugin Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle allowing use of electricity for commute and using Hydrogen on long road trips when needed. Wishful thinking?
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
Elon's battery swapping scheme was only about getting government money.... only fanboys pretend it had anything to do with suitability... Like it or not China is bringing real battery swapping to the rest of the world.... Let's hope the rest of the world catches on, and can compete with the Chinese options....
Plug-in hydrogen vehicles could be a neat idea. I like them but there would need to be a lot more stations to fuel up. After the nuclear fusion revolution and the infrastructure is built up to handle semi trucks, I suppose.
Nott really just higher production as the only things that take hydrogen now are Rockets and fuel cell cars in California and Japan. Like swapping jets and trucks from gas to hydrogen would do it.
So much more energy-dense in terms of fuel than a battery-powered EV, much faster "charging", and so much less polluting for the environment than a gasoline-powered car. I just wish hydrogen "gas stations" were more prevalent - maybe some day.
Consumers should be given choices. Hydrogen can be produced in a green way, commercial applications need hydrogen. EV's is good for whoever has charging available at home.
We basically need a startup like Tesla to come along that only makes hydrogen powered vehicles to build out the infrastructure and turn hydrogen from being a hobby into a feasible form of transportation.
Unless a cheap, effective, widespread hydrogen network gets good enough to be CONVENIENT and practical for private vehicle owners, I just don't see it, re hydrogen. We have city buses that are hydrogen, and they refuel at the government run bus depot, and that works great. No fumes, and no need to drag around a huge heavy battery to power the bus. So as long as that's economic and reliable compared to BEV, fine and dandy. But BEV owners can charge at home or anywhere there is a plug (with a rapidly growing network). I just don't see the equivalent of hydrogen at even a quarter of the gas stations (for example) without MASSIVE adoption of fuel cell private cars. And massive adoption won't happen without easy access to hydrogen, cheap and convenient, so game over, except maybe for CA and the odd exception here and there.
They need to start investing in hydrogen stations and start with long range trucks and buses. And the people need to wake up and see how far fuel cells have developed for passenger car use. It’s very possible but everybody needs to shake their heads and see the limits of batteries only.
I think another start up company that goes directly at Suburbans/Escalades with hydrogen sounds like the best chance for a break through, based upon what you described.
He's going on and on with stats that mean nothing. An Ioniq 5 will take you 99.99% of your mileage needs so the "extra capacity" is entirely useless, especially as it's much more expensive to fuel. While he says 45 minutes to full on an Ioniq 5, it's less than 18 to 80%, which will still deliver two and a half hours of driving range - again, more than enough to get you to a rest stop or your destination. We don't NEED bigger batteries in EVs than are currently there. 50-75Kwh is plenty. And having "well over 350 miles of real world range" in your Hydrogen car is entirely useless as a statistic when you can't go that distance as there aren't any filling stations en route. All you have is 175 miles of range before you need to turn right round and head back again because otherwise you'll run out of fuel before you get home. An Ioniq 5 can go further than 175 miles. It's a useless slew of statistics. Simple fact is that you CAN'T long distance one of these, the additional range they offer is unnecessary and the Charing time is a non issue, seeing as though most EV charging happens at home overnight - you don't have to GO somewhere to do it. And, as stated in my previous post, the inefficiency of electrolysing water, compression, transport, further compression, delivery, chemical recomposition, charging the drive battery and then using that to move the wheels is RUINOUSLY inefficient - which is why 70% of hydrogen used in these things - even in many stations in California (as stated in the video) - still comes from Natural Gas,... Which produces CO2 that an EV might not. Alex is honest about a few of these flaws and correct in saying that the technology is still 15-20 years away from anything mainstream but here's the thing: WE DON'T HAVE 15-20 YEARS. On the question of climate change, we simply don't have time to waste on waiting for this stuff to "Mature" and THEN go mass market. We are bang out of time. ANYTHING, at this point, that gives people a reason to WAIT to change out of gas cars is BAD. Promising a hydrogen future just delays the end of fossil fuel use. It's too late to be pulling this shit.
I wonder if this is sustainable if it is scaled. If everyone uses hydrogen cars in the future is it possible to produce enough renewable hydrogen for everyone in America? For BEVs that may be solved with nuclear then fission in the future
I live in central California. Not a single hydrogen station within 100 miles. Fifty percent of my range would be wasted just in refueling. Infrastructure is the issue.
100 miles x 2 x 13 US$ x 2,5 kg/100 miles = 65,-- US$ each trip.
My next hydrogen station is about 140 km away.
But at least i could tow it with one of my Teslas...
I live in central Sweden and I have a hydrogen station 35 minutes away. So going there to refuel is at least 75 min. Not very convenient. And I still can’t travel where I want as it’s the only station anywhere near. And if breaks you can’t refill at all.
Yup lack of infrastructure, like service station hydrogen pumps is issue but 10 years back it was the same story with charging stations..so finger crossed in 10 years +time, technology will overcome today's EV battery powered vehicles 👍
Maybe. But Tesla is only where it is because they had to build out their own charging network just to sell any cars at all. Nobody making fuel cell cars is doing that, and nobody else is going to do it either. I am a little surprised that Shell, Mobile, etc. haven't already started that. They have the ability to mass produce hydrogen, keeps their oil production going, and they have the gas station base for the installations. It must be that after doing the math that there isn't any possible way to make money at it, and that the refueling cost for the consumer is so far out of whack that it makes gasoline look free.
We live outside Seattle, don't think there is even 1 station in the state, so for 95% of the country it's not even an option. That's one issue with hydrogen is they would have to totally start over building fueling stations, where as with EV you can install chargers anywhere there is power including charging at home as needed.
Excellent video. You managed to make a hydrogen noob semi-knowledgeable in 30 minutes AND delivered a full car review in the process. Thanks for your thoughtful commentary. One of youtube's very best in this space.
But BEVs allow you to generate your electricity at home or any number of ways. H2 would put us straight back into the hands of big companies.
yeah, because no one has access to water and electricity at home...
@@dandaab2887 I think you don't realize how difficult it is to make hydrogen.
@@dandaab2887 The cost of producing and pressurizing hydrogen at home would be astronomical, as it would be tremendously inefficient, and would also be very dangerous. Easily 3x as much electricity consumed as it would take to charge an equivalent BEV, with the added bonus of having an actual bomb in your garage, sitting next to a vehicle that also has more explosive hydrogen tanks + flammable hybrid battery. Does not sound like a good time, and I don't think UL certification could be convinced that it'd be a good time, either.
so that big bad electric company doesnt count as a big company? get real, everything you do in life is in the hands of big company.
Oil companies!
I love grabbing a beer and listening to Alex talk sweet car nerdy to me. Cheers!
I can appreciate the ability to operate essentially like a gas car while also getting the benefits of an EV. It's a neat experiment. Maybe in 10 or 15 years as you say, it'll be a mainstream thing, especially for large vehicles. But, battery energy density might also surpass the weight savings offered by then. Time will tell. But in the meantime, I'm waiting on the Nimbus One EV, which alleviates the apartment dweller concern you mention. The Nimbus One is a 3 wheeled reverse trike with an enclosed climate controlled 1+1 cabin and removable batteries which can be carried into your apartment and charged on a dock, should be shipping this year. It's limited to 50mph, but as a city vehicle for apartment dwellers that only goes 94mi on a charge, I don't think that's a problem at all.
In fact, I'm going to extend its' use case significantly with the dock by using it for my commute. I'll be able to have a dock at work, meaning I could commute all the way to work on 45mph roads at a cost of an extra 10 minutes of driving vs the highway, re-charge during my shift at work, and I'd have more than enough range to floor it and blast the climate controls, all for $10k, with a 5 year battery warranty.
I mention this because of your comments about the sheer weight and excess of EVs, and I agree. We all need to think smaller. And if 99% of my driving is spent alone on my commute to work, I should minimize those costs to myself and to the environment and others as much as possible. I still have my current car I can take on long road trips if need be, but I imagine it'll sit idle most of the time. Plus at $10k for the Nimbus, you could probably get a cheaper gas-powered or hybrid crossover that matches this things' capabilities for those few occasions where you need them, and also buy a Nimbus as your daily commuter, probably for the same price as a BEV SUV or crossover.
That looks like it wouldn't work outside of an urban setting. There's no way I'd want to drive something that small in any of the suburban areas I've lived.
Fuel cell vehicles, only a decade away since the '60s
Joseph Wall: Yup. PHEV's reliably fill that transitional role now for long commutes, cold commutes, those with range anxiety, etc. But batteries are improving MASSIVELY, and at some point with superb battery reliability and longevity, low cost, and relatively massive range with moderate size and weight, something like 500 miles will be PLENTY, with chargers as common as gas stations are today in two or three decades.
So given the cost and complexity, while hybrids are a GREAT transitional solution (a point many BEV fanbois and I disagree on, and I'm a long term Tesla shareholder, but facts are facts), but they'll lose the war on economics once today's real world BEV issues like cost and range aren't really issues for 99%+ of people. It's a question of WHEN, not if.
Looks like a Kona from the future, I like it. I have a IONIQ5 and 100% convinced EVs are the way to go. No sure if BEV or hydrogen
We have the Ioniq 5 also and it's great. Every morning have a full battery and it's ready to go. Seems like with hydrogen you may as well use the power needed to produce hydrogen to just charge an EV and skip the hydrogen part. I think most states don't even have 1 fulling station so right now it's not even worth getting excited about. Even in California he said it sounds like you can't leave your home area if you buy one. It would be billions of dollars and a decade to build up infrastructure for them and that same money would be competing with EV infrastructure. Long term the tech may become smaller so hydrogen may work as a range extender, normally just charge and drive but on long trips flip on the hydrogen to add miles.
Hydrogen will end up being really big in commercial and industrial spaces. It makes much more sense for long haul trucking than BEVs. BEVs are fine for personal vehicles.
very good review indeed. I drive the Nexo now 3,5 year, and this video covers almost everything. After 140T Km, still statisfied
HFCEVs have the same infrastructure problem that BEVs have, but like 100 times worse. Hydrogen makes a lot of sense for commercial vehicles, but i think BEVs are better for consumers due to the weight and range issues.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
@@nc3826 Battery swapping is an interesting idea for BEVs, but the issue is that the batteries are often so structural to the car, it becomes exceptionally difficult to do in a production setting. Battery swapping Aluminum batteries, or small motorcycle batteries can be done and has been tested, but i don't think that tech will really make it anywhere with larger vehicles due to the weight and structural integration of the batteries.
@@ender25ish Geely Has A Battery Swapping Cement Trucks. That has close to a megawatt-hour of capacity. Do you consider them large vehicles?
The battery swapping vs structural integration meme, seems to have some validity superficially, but does not hold up under scrutiny. All the EVs that, I know of have removable battery packs, so what is less structurally integrated, for a battery swappable pack? Also "cell to pack" integration has been taking place inside battery packs, in recent years, which is also taking place in battery swappable EVs. And comparably sized battery swappable and non-swappable EVs tend to have similar weights.
So I have yet to find any validation of the battery swapping vs structural integration meme. Please elucidate me if you have ?
While battery swapping has literally hundreds of advantages. With you mentioned a few of the obscure ones. But there are some additional costs and complexity. Which will slow its adoption in the low ending market. Plus the fact that it's been, for the most part disregarded in the West.
CATL Launches Battery Swap Solution EVOGO Featuring Modular Battery Swapping,
2022-01-18
@@nc3826 There are no production consumer vehicles in which the battery can be removed and swapped quickly. As of now, all of the BEVs in the US are designed around the battery and its not an easy component to remove on the fly since its so tightly integrated. Tesla had a version of the Model S that could do it, but it was a modified version and that system never came to fruition.
There is also a complete lack of battery standards. If such a system were to be implemented any station would have to be able to swap any battery and replace it with an equivalent battery, something that seems nigh impossible considering a Hummer battery is vastly different from a Bolt battery. Its an interesting idea but i don't see it catching on in the US for consumer sedans and trucks. Commercial vehicles it may make more sense, since you can standardize those within the company that they are owned by. It would also allow you to charge batteries more slowly which would prolong their life by producing less heat and use less energy to charge in the first place.
Like i said tho, i don't think its practical nor possible with today's EVs and EV mindset.
Hi Alex, note one thing that puts FCEV a major disadvantage.
When fuel cell decays, you lose absolute max power output, which is much less acceptable than mileage decay in EVs…
I would imagine it's significantly cheaper to replace the aging fuel cell than an EV's battery pack though.
@@sipher3516 similarly if not more expensive. Fuel cell accounts for 50% of vehicle cost solely due to the platinum price.
We don’t want slaves mining for electric cars materials or children
Ice an hydrogen is the future 🍃🌿
I have only tested a Nexo and it’s a really nice car. Love the technology and hydrogen cars might had a future if the manufacturers actually hade made a real effort making them a complete package. Just like Tesla did with superchargers the car makers need to make hydrogen stations convenient and plentiful. I live pretty close to a hydrogen station but with a hydrogen car I would be stuck here. Fuel cells probably will have many uses in the future but just not for cars in any meaningful way.
the greener the hydrogen, the more inefficient and costly it is to produce. And that's before the efficiency loss of using it in the fuel cell stack.
While battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. And it is used on a much larger scale than, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the world.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
I'm hoping Hydrogen will have a chance to advance once commercial applications start looking at it. From jet liners to even semi trucks. Once big unjustly focuses on Hydrogen it should hopefully be easier to adopt to consumer needs
Hydrogen EVs have already lost. Nobody is building hydrogen stations. It's DC fast charging stations that are getting built.
battery swapping Will be the next step....
@@nc3826pipe dream
CATL Launches Battery Swap Solution EVOGO Featuring Modular Battery Swapping
2022-01-18
It's SO INEFFICIENT. The number of EV miles you could get from the power used to create the hydrogen powering this thing DWARFS the Nexo. And that is NOT a small matter!
You could power 3 Tesla Model Yes for the power used to power a single Nexo an identical distance. That's less grid power sucked up, less infrastructure needed, less risk of power outages and, yes, far fewer CO2 emissions.
Hydrogen is a dead end technology. And for the record that BMW mentioned is not actually going to be put into mass production.
Can we just stop with the Hydrogen BS? It's not going to happen. Hell, Shell SHUT their only Hydrogen stations in the UK last year - all of them - because they weren't making any money. Our Hydrogen infrastructure has SHRUNK.
Can we not put a frikkin bullet in the back of the head of this technology already and move on?
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
I agree with everything in this video. I wouldn't buy one because I don't fit into the category that can have one but I'm glad we have more than just one solution to ICE vehicles. Some people hate that BEV's aren't the ONLY solution which is just plain idiocy. Regardless, I am very appreciative of all of the information from all counterpoints. I didn't know more than half of the information in this video and I've watched all of your FCEV videos.
Thank you for being so thorough and presenting all of the information. I always appreciate the real-world perspective answers to all of arguments that naysayers use on paper to discredit non-BEV products.
I'm hoping BMW, Hyundai, and Toyota continue their FCEV research and products. Depending solely on a single source of fuel was never a good idea even without the current state of global affairs OR even global warming. Developing FCEV makes sense given that BEV advancements could literally be used in this Nexo (i.e. bigger battery) to make it even better than BEV's and ICE's thus far.
I would love to see this tech be used where full electric hard, like a semi truck that does a repeat route and can have refiling built on site. Seems like it might work better than a giant battery for many larger companies fleets.
My main problem with hydrogen is that it's far less efficient than an EV in total energy used. The vast majority of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels as well. Maybe if hydrogen from renewable energy becomes more common, fuel cells could make sense in some cases. I think the advances in batteries and fast charging will make EVs the better choice for commuting at least.
We drove the 2017 Honda Clarity Fuel Cell in Southern California for 60,000 miles. At the time Hydrogen was $9.95 a kilogram. It’s currently at $26.00 a kilogram at many stations. In Honda I averaged around 55 miles per Kilogram driving like a regular car. The $15,000 allowance for fuel is nice but figure out how many miles you drive and do the $$ calculations before purchasing/leasing to avoid surprises.
Still, 99% of the world can't refuel these if they buy one.
Even at $9 it's still more expensive than gasoline. This very niche at the moment.
Calling this an EV is like Toyota claiming their hybrids are "self charging" EVs. Except now you lose the efficiency and daily 100% of an EV, as well as the plentiful gas stations of traditional ICE vehicles.
@@Allan_A After driving a fuel cell for 3 years my impression is that this technology is great for commercial trucks especially those on a set route around an area like Los Angeles that can return at night to a dedicated filling station (Toyota has one at Port) but from a regular consumer standpoint, trying to make this work seems very far off in the future.
@@jethrojackson yes, I think that would be a good use case. In the case of commercial trucks it could be better than batteries due to weight limits, etc.
I appreciate the coverage, and it's excellent as always. That being said, these just aren't going anywhere. I'm guessing we'll see high DC fast charger density and mandates for apartments to install charging (or just competition demanding it) before hydrogen can get off the ground.
I doubt we'll ever see nearly anyone outside of true car nerds buying these consumer hydrogen vehicles.
I think HD trucks will be rolling on fuel cells in a decade or less. I mean the consumer grade ones, but additionally I think maybe trains and class 8 trucks could be great options for them as well.
Zachary: Agreed. And in CA there are already regulations mandating home level 2 charging for many if not all new dwellings, so that's clearly doable. After a while the market will demand that.
@@sipher3516: Class 8 could work, but there will be no need or want for it UNLESS it makes economic sense.
Tesla has already proven its semi can provide MASSIVE savings in a few years just from charging vs. diesel. The same principle applies to hydrogen unless proven otherwise.
The network is less of a problem, as there are FAR fewer truck stops than gas stations, for example -- but the economics seems insurmountable to me.
Electric infrastructure can't handle everyone owning an EV. This car is a solution to that problem.
I love sedans. Hydrogen cant be produced in mass, we already have electricity everywhere. When the state of cali stops funding hydrogen, its dead. I will never understand why people are okay driving up to 30 minutes round trip to fuel up and say its only 5 minutes, with an ev you charge at home, it takes 10 seconds to plug and unplug. you cant beat that.
Great explanation on a high level of where this industry is and how it works. The clean scalability of hydrogen production should be the focus and is key to the solution making sense. Energy density will be increasing with batteries and EV’s will benefit the most from this. Great analysis of the Nexo.
Gary Clark: Unless the economics makes sense, it's a non-starter for private vehicle owners. As BEV's will clearly get cheaper and better and have lots of momentum and backing, I just don't see hydrogen competing for private vehicles until proven otherwise.
They are already doing OK for things like city buses, but whether that competes with BEV buses over the longer run as batteries improve remains to be seen.
Tesla has already proven the physics works for BEV semis, and they'll only improve, so no need for hydrogen there unless and until it gets CHEAP.
@@rogergeyer9851 The problem with energy density is that, barring a radical new tech, it's going to be incrementa for batteriesl, at best.
Fuel cells, by contrast, will themselves become more energy efficient over time. For instance, the 2024 Nexo model is planned to roll out with a next-gen fuel cell that will get you 500+mi on the same tank of hydrogen that the 2023 does ~350mi in. Despite having a massive head start, what consumer BEV gets 500mi per charge?
Nevermind this doesn't address the other improvements hydrogen vehicles can make: hold more hydrogen. Consumer hydrogen vehicles currently store at 70MPa. Heavy duty vehicles store at even greater pressures. If that storage tech goes to consumer vehicles, you can hold more hydrogen per volume, which makes the vehicles' range even further.
Back to batteries: there is a *hard* lithium cap on this planet. The rush to BEV all cars is ravaging land for minerals. Without a transformative approach to energy storage, battery-powered vehicles will become increasingly more destructive to the environment and more expensive to acquire, before being unable to manufacture at all. Will polymer batteries change the game? Who knows!
Even in its infant state, hydrogen storage negates the wasteful and harmful mining operations needed to acquire battery materials. (Did I mention that China has a great deal of these? We're swapping OPEC oil for Chinese lithium here...)
Fuel cells haven't reached anywhere near their peak efficiency. The 2024 Nexo (which were recently delayed) are projected to have a range of 500mi on the same amount of hydrogen as the current 2023 models.
Short of a revolution in battery/capacitor energy storage, fuel cells have a much higher ceiling in making the same amount of storage volume take you farther.
I think it's telling that all of these manufacturers and the billions invested in innovation are stuck at a ~350mi battery range. Fuel cells, meanwhile, are continuing to improve their range with arguably less large-scale development.
(-22f) "In the continental US, really nowhere gets that cold on a regular basis." Minnesota and the Midwest have some thoughts about that.
Eh, I don’t see FCEVs gaining much popularity for passenger vehicles at all. If BEV infrastructure isn’t good, FCEV infrastructure is straight up garbage, I’ve heard of lines that last up to an hour at fuel cell stations, removing the benefit of “fast” refueling all together. It also costs more to refuel than the average ICE car even with higher gas prices. Hydrogen tanks can take up a considerable amount of room on the interior compared to batteries on the floor in a BEV, take a look at the 2nd gen Mirai, big car, extremely cramped interior, Nexo seems to do it better tho. Also, they’re not efficient, needing what’s equivalent to 200kwh to go 380 miles in a car the size of an IONIQ 5 and that is lighter is kinda ridiculous.
People hate hydrogen cars for the wrong reasons. The range and fuel time is general better than most economy evs. There was a lot of momentum years ago when the cost was $16/kg. Now in CA it’s $30/kb and momentum has shifted with no new stations. Why? Because the lobbies and special interests do a great job at killing hydrogen infrastructure and branding HEVs as inferior to EVs when in fact it’s only because of infrastructure or the lack of. Blame governments for not building more stations because that would change the perception and expand access
Also, the global platinum resource is even more limited than Li battery materials.
It does NOT seem any possible that fuel cell tech can evolve into low- or no-platinum form while delivering minimal viable performance.
Not only platinum, but iridium is also used in fuel cells. Both are actual rare earth materials. The only shortage of lithium is in refinement to battery grade Li. So, hydrogen is really stuck as there really isn't any viable alternatives to platinum and iridium.
@@igeekoneyou're making it seem the fuel cell stack is using a ton of platinum. but in reality it only uses 30 to 45 gram of platinum. to put it in perspective, catalytic converter uses about 7 gram of platinum which hundreds of millions ICE cars on the road have right now. platinum from a a used fuel cell or catalytic converter can be melted down and recycle easily and cheaply. the lithium amount in a 70 kwh bev is a whopping 63 kilogram! that's not including cobalt and nickel and recycling them is expensive. you have to use electro chemistry to reverse the the process that turn used lithium into it's pure lithium form. that's extremely expensive.
Hydrogen has alot of major issues that needs to be addressed but as things are refined and new breakthroughs in the field are discovered i think it has real potential to replace gas and electric vehicles as they are the best of both worlds with the least amount of emissions
I like this vehicle based on your review, and am looking forward to fuel cell tech based on your analysis. I just searched the current availability of Nexo in Canada. As you indicated, one must really want the Nexo, as I get a sense this needs to be ordered, in the times we are in, I guess a long wait time.
I’m glad that Alex and others are willing to experiment with these. It’s not for me. But I learned a few things that I didn’t know. First and foremost that Hyundai makes a hydrogen fueled vehicle. I thought Toyota was the only make with one. The nexo seems much more practical than the Mirai.
I also didn’t know that most people lease them, and the refueling is included in the price. I wonder how much the purchase or lease cost factors in the refueling expenses. If you drive a lot, a $500 lease price which includes fuel isn’t a bad deal.
I’ve heard of there being occasional issues at refueling stations. And that’s a major drag given how far it often is between fueling station. Given that concern I think it’s a good idea to stop at a station with enough reserve range to make it to another station if necessary in the early years of hydrogen.
I hope they can produce more clean hydrogen, and at a cheaper cost given that it’s the most common element on earth. I think a lot of people today have discounted hydrogen, when it might still be a big part of the future for larger vehicles of people who don’t have home charging options if just a few things can be ironed out.
Hyundai is leasing it to consumers for far below what it costs to make, and then subsidizing the expensive fuel. Doesn't sound like an sustainable business model ;-) Definitely a beta test you pay to drive, partially covering the auto maker's costs.
You have to be pretty dedicated to being an experimenter to find that desirable
A couple quibbles: You should not need two charging stops in a Tesla Model Y (the rough equivalent of the Nexo) to drive from the SF bay area to LA. The Model Y has a stated range of 330 miles - but realistically you won't get that much going 75-80 MPH down I5. But even blasting down the road along with everyone else, you should easily make it with lots to spare, with a single charge stop half way.
Green hydrogen, made from renewable wind and solar isn't so green when you consider that well over 50% of the green energy is wasted in the process of making and using it. That means that even though the hydrogen may be green, making the hydrogen used up energy that could have replaced fossil fuel to power the grid. And therefore it is not wrong to say that essentially all the power for the NEXO ended up (indirectly) causing power plants to burn fossil fuel equivalent to what the NEXO used.
The only way the hydrogen could be considered truly green is if there was excess solar and wind that would otherwise have been curtailed (AKA not used.) At the moment, that is rarely true, and as grid scale batteries are added to soak up and later release any temporary surplus, it will get even more rare.
Hydrogen seems like a good idea if you commute but there is no way my wife will EVER go back to filling up at gas stations. We plug her Leaf in about 3 times a week and that’s all she needs. Big trucks would definitely benefit more from this tech than a full EV conversion.
flyingvengeance: Definite first world problem, re filling up at a public station being a "problem".
I still think that over time, converting many gas pumps at gas stations to DC fast chargers makes a LOT of sense for commuters, etc. MANY people can't conveniently charge and home, and MANY people need to travel and need reliable charging options.
Very informative and honest review, thanks!
I'm absolutely LOVING the center stack buttons!!!
The technology really is advancing but hydrogen is still just an energy storage medium, and with the fuel cell stack only 60% efficient, a PHEV can beat it on convenience and efficiency. As you say though a PHEV hydrogen may make it more competitve. Another option, which I'm not sure why it hasn't been developed more is using a reformer so you can actually run off ethanol instead of hydrogen, the efficiencies are still fairly high. Nissan was testing this in South America where ethanol is more plentiful, a phev version of that would be interesting.
Hyundai can barely give these things away and the used market has tanked. You can buy one with low miles for about 12,000.
I have to disagree on some points.
At the end of the video, you state that the technology is at its infancy, that is is nowhere near where Tesla was when they brought their first EV to market. And that is just wrong. Fuel cell technology is old tech, it's ancient tech. The principles have existed since the 19th century, we flew to the moon on hydrogen fuel cells (it's the oxygen tank required for the fuel cell that exploded on Apollo 13), GM was already doing experiments with hydrogen powered vehicles in the '60s as well. Toyota started its own hydrogen program, of which the Mirai is the result, back in the '90s, almost 30 years ago. So how can it be that after all that time, we should call this a technology in it's infancy?
The problem is not understanding the technology. The problem is finding a way to build it in an affordable way. Because research has shown that scaling up the production of a fuel cell stack does not reduce the cost, on the contrary. Mass production could actually make it even more expensive to produce. Not every production process lends itself for economies of scale.
There's also a different issue for me, and it is something that you have glossed over imho. Yes, you mentioned the inefficiency of the car and the inefficiency of the fuelstack, but you forgot to mention the total inefficiency from power plant to wheels. You are looking at a total energy loss of over 65%. Compared to a battery electric vehicle, you need to produce roughly 3 to 4 times as much energy to drive a certain distance with a FCEV. And in a world where we are talking about energy shortage, that's a lot of energy. Add to that the fact that we already have a shortage on industrial hydrogen, which is one of the reasons the fuel is so expensive.
The car might not have phantom drain on the electrical side, but you are forgetting another part. Hydrogen has the atomic number 1, it's the lightest, smallest atom that can exist. It escapes from everywhere, especially under the high pressure in a hydrogen tank. Sure, it's not a massive loss, but after a few weeks? You will notice it. Plenty of battery EVs on the other hand that you can park for months with no real loss of range. Believe me, my BEV has been parkerd for a few months when I was abroad.
A decade ago, a lot of people in the industry said that we would see FCEV for bigger trucks and the likes. Looking at the world today, it looks like that is not even happening. Most manufacturers are now betting on battery electric. Had you asked me 5 years ago what the better product was, a Tesla Semi or a Nikola One, I would have said the Nikola. We all know how that one turned out in the end. Nikola was accused and found guilty of fraud and has since launched a battery electric truck.
While I do still believe there is a place for hydrogen in the energy transition, for example in aviation, shipping, maybe even rail transport I do not really give it a bright future in road transport. For that, it is too expensive, too inefficient and it will always be just a decade away, as it has been for over half a century.
As much as I would like hydrogen to be used and as potentially the greenest of transportation options, I don’t think the economics will ever be persuasive for personal use. Industrial uses probably, but for personal use FCEVs will always loose the total energy efficiency battle to BEVs because you have the energy loss on the fuel cell stack on top of the battery to motor power loss. And unless you are willing to use fossil fuels to generate the hydrogen, which negates any green benefit, hydrogen will always be more expensive than pure electricity, so will always be more expensive to drive than BEVs unfortunately
the greener the hydrogen, the more inefficient and costly it is to produce. And that's before the efficiency loss of using it in the fuel cell stack.
While battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
(And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
I recently bought a Nexo off-lease for $16,000. A luxury vehicle with high tech fun for lower than the price of a high-mileage four-banger.
I'm comfortable with the "experiment" side of your remarks, but let's not forget the Mirai has existed for 10 years and many of those older cars are still going strong without degradation.
I live in an area with good fueling option. But the problem with the Nexo comes down to Maintenance: Hyundai has several thousand of these in California... And only four service locations.
Hyundai needs to step up and offer this machine from more dealerships or at least certify their service teams to service the Nexo.
Moved to California from the east coast and always dreamt of driving a fcev and do my part for the environment...got a good deal on a preowned nexo 2019. Performance and comfort are great but have to mention a few of downsides/surprises to be aware of...a) know for sure Progressive declined to provide insurance and had to go with State farm (lost my years of loyalty status). Would recommend calling insurance companies before purchase. b) hydrogen costs in the Los Angeles area is about $22 per kg. Full tank (5.5 kg) will set you behind by about $110 but provide a range of 370 miles.
Your analysis: inefficient, expensive, slow, noisy, no AWD, extremely limited refueling. Oh, and you can't make your fuel (solar). Not appealing.
Axion: And this after decades of development and research from the likes of Toyota. At least BEV's are making rapid progress, now that there is enough economic momentum to make BEV battery research have potential huge payoffs.
What is the maintenance cost? For example - Are the air filters for the fuel cell expensive?
With zero information I’m gonna go ahead and say yes.
Seeing the almost arbitrary array of control buttons and switch gear in the Nexo really highlights the exquisiteness of the design which has gone into the Genesis GV60 dash board/cabin which similarly has these buttons divorced from a central infotainment screen.
The comparison is so stark - beautifully elegant in the Genesis - a dog’s dinner in the Nexo!
it’s a real testament to Genesis’ design team and probably answers why so few manufacturers have attempted it. Well done Genesis!
Sorry a bit off topic but felt compelled to comment.
Tony Roberts: "Dog's dinner". Reminds me of Gordon Ramsay...
I find it really surprising that companies don't pay more attention to design, re standards and ease of use. But I spent my life living with the growth of computer technology from my start in high school in 1976 through now. And poor design and complexity and lack of standards, even as the designs evolve fairly rapidly has been a CONSTANT problem, IMO.
I could keep up in my 30's. Now I'm just tired of it as I just want to USE the blasted things, vs. play with them and try to expand their capabilities.
31:29 where did you get your numbers on percentage of BEVs sold in 2022? I thought it was over 5% of new vehicles sold in 2022 in the USA at least …
As long as there isn't infrastructure; hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are paddles on a poodle.The entire San Joaquin Valley has 1 station in Fresno County -- at Harris Ranch.
Alex, thank you for the awesome video. Are you sure that Hyundai is offering the fuel card (15k) on used "CPO" Nexo's? If so, this will make the decision for me between the Miria and the Nexo. I spent the weekend looking at used Mirais in the LA area (i live in the Central Valley and we only have 1 station), but i think the Nexo is more practical. Sadly, I cannot find any information about the fuel card on the Nexo.
I live 5-10 minutes away from H35/H70 station, and currently living in an apartment with no EVSE. Still FCEVs are very difficult to commit to
This would remove the main advantage that electric cars have over ICE cars which is you can charge at home. I do 99 % of my charging at home. This would require a massive new infrastructure. It's already difficult for non Telsa EV's and most of them are charging at home too. The whole concept seems DOA to me.
Certainly can have commercial benefits though. Also like Alex mentioned at the end, apartment dwellers may not have access to charge their BEVs.
@@ALMX5DP True. I'm thinking that a solar powered EV could eventually be a good option for apartment dwellers in certain parts of the country. The Aptera looks like it might make it into production. I don't think it's a solution for most people but it's a first step.
Bingo. Primary reason I want an EV
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
(And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
solar powered EV is great but battery swapping is far more realistic alternative for most people...Who lives in an apartment....
Alex, What happens in cold climates? The trail of pure water piddling from the tailpipe will ice up the roadways. Is there a little salt shaker attachment to keep the streets navigable? 🤔
The stack puts off enough heat that it still drains properly at 30F below zero.
@@EVBuyersGuide Where does it drain? At -30 the water will freeze in a split second once it hits the pavement.
@@rightlanehog3151 Oh it'll be an ice pudele for sure, but it won't freeze "in" the vehicle.
@@EVBuyersGuide Now we understand each other. 😁
$520/month how much you put down? And how many miles per year? I'm presuming it's a 36 month lease
Alex, is insurance for you higher/lower compare to a crossover EV (ie. Model Y, Mach-E...etc)?
The car itself is great, but here in Sacramento, most of the pumps are offline and there are frequent long lines. This is despite the fuel cost rising by over 50% at the end of 2022. I was able to make the Nexo work as a daily driver for about 1.5 years before I had to buy a backup car. Would not buy another unless hydrogen becomes ubiquitous.
I'd prefer standards and organization re all those buttons, but such buttons are FAR better than a giant screen with functions buried behind layers of menus while you're trying to drive, like Teslas and increasingly, others.
I don't even like messing with the screen to change the music (vs. using the traditional radio buttons and knobs setup), while driving a standard ICE car like a Toyota Camry with a 7 inch touch screen.
Of at least as much interest would be residential fuel cells. Lots of potential there.
Brother do you really think this technology will ever be cost-effective? I can’t see the numbers ever lining up.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
And it's nice to know Alex has a brother
Alex, what are your thoughts on the Honda CR-V plug-in hybrid fuel cell?
Regardless of what you think the future of Hydrogen FCV is, the tech is amazing when you step back and think about it. Just 15 pounds of Hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, drives this car 380miles. That's incredible
Wish I had a time machine.......I'd rather have a fuel cell vehicle than a regular EV but I don't think I'll live long enough.
It takes 39-48 kWh of energy to produce enough hydrogen to drive 60 miles (1 kg). An EV only takes 18-23 kWh to do the same. Hydrogen passenger cars have been "a decade away" for fifty years and will be that way for another 50 if they can't improve the efficiency.
Answer: no
Very much in the future.
The EV infrastructure is still pretty poor but Hydrogen does not really exist.
You have to transport the hydrogen fuel, as they do with Petrol & diesel.
Should be expensive too.
Fuel cells have such great potential. If Toyota/Hyundai really wanted hydrogen to take off, they should've put in the necessary investment and built out a hydrogen fueling network.
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
@@nc3826 Swapping won't work. Multiple brands would need to use a standard which is then taking away much of their competitive advantage of defining their own performance specs of their models. It works in China because they can enforce what occurs. Here, it would need to be GM swap stations, Ford, swap stations, Toyota swap stations, etc. and that isn't going to happen.
@@davidmccarthy6061 thank you, for being so original, I've never heard any of these memes before.... but don't look Now, It's already in Europe, SO It must be a Chinese Communist plot ....
fwiw Multiple brands already use a battery swapping network created by a battery supplier.... And it's based on a module design, so different size battery packs Configurations can be installed...
Do you get the 15k in fuel if you buy instead of lease?
I used to discredit hydrogen fuel cells because I thought, "Hey, this hydrogen is just coming from oil/gas production." But oil and gas are currently vital not only to fuel and transportation, but materials (where do you think the plastic in your computer or cell phone comes from?). So we will continue to need it in the future. Also, given: constrained and politically fraught lithium supply, massive weight of battery-only EVs, charging times for BEVs, lack of meaningful lithium battery recycling, lack of charging infrastructure for dense urban dwellers or rural folks, and range anxiety, I am beginning to think that Hydrogen fuel-cell EVs hold a promising and important place in our personal- and commercial-transportation future. Plus, I did not know that California's hydrogen fuel cell experiment mandates a certain proportion of 100% renewable hydrogen - or that 100% renewable sources of hydrogen even existed in today's market.
What a cool car. Thanks for your additional insights, Alex. It helped me to better understand Toyota's (and Hyundai and GM's) continued interest in developing hydrogen fuel-cell EVs.
I guess I might be hung up minute details, but... is your personal Nexo an older model?
Interesting. I appreciate your presenting the "unknowns".
What was the start up plug in hydrogen car company that went kaput?
all of us need to take an Alex mind reading course... to get all his references ;)
What if the hydrogen comes from Verde home hydrogen refueler powered by solar panels? Ever hear of that?
No matter who you are - a person or a company - electricity is cheaper when you produce on your roof.
Very, very cheap. Cheap are the hydro-electricity and atomic-electricity, too.
But for Hydrogen we have a lot of losses because the process from electricity to cars involves a lot of steps and losses:
- producing electricity (like electric vehicles that stop losses here);
- make Hydrogen with electrolysis (loss of 25-30% of energy);
- transport Hydrogen to distribution stations, and the storage (loss of 5-10% of energy);
- conversion back to electricity (loss of 40-50% of energy).
A total of 70-90% loss. What is the point of using hydrogen?!
The price of batteries is going down quickly, they are safer than 5 years ago, the production of Lithium is growing, and the technology is better and better.
THAT CENTER CONSOLE BUTTON LAYOUT IS GOLDEN I WANT IT IN EVERY CAR
It may be possible to make hydrogen more mainstream if hydrogen production can be done at home much like EV charging. Here are some rough numbers: electrolysis is about 65% efficient in energy conversion to hydrogen, it then takes another 1 kWh per kg hydrogen to compress it to liquid at a pressure needed for filling the car. 1 kg hydrogen gets roughly about 70 miles of range. So that’s an additional energy cost of about 5%, rounding up. So let’s say that’s an energy conversion efficiency of 60%. Compared to EVs, battery charging is about 85% efficient. That’s not too crazy of a difference. With the right equipment, at-home hydrogen fill ups could potentially work.
Alex, the greener the hydrogen, the more inefficient and costly it is to produce. And that's before the efficiency loss of using it in the fuel cell stack. (plus with all the subsidies for fuel cell vehicles and Hydrogen it's hard to tell what the true cost is?)
While battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home. And it is used on a much larger scale than, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the world.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs. (And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
Until technology allows small fuel stations to efficiently create their own hydrogen (on-site electrolysis?), this will remain a niche fuel/powertrain . Perhaps it could work for long haul trucking first, where the larger stations could hypothetically accommodate fuel production before the tech could be neighborhood-station sized.
H2 might work for large trucks, boats, etc, but I'm not interesting in sitting on a tank of compressed H2 while I drive. Ford Pinto brings back too many memories...
hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, have many issues .... but making it analogous to a Ford Pinto is pushing congruity....
Believe it or not this tank is safer to sit on than any lithium battery.
Toyota demonstrated how fast hydrogen evaporates once released. To prove the safety of the tank , they shot at it and nothing happened. In slow motion video (million FPS lol) it looks like popping a rigid balloon
@@nc3826 Probably, but the Pinto reminds us that liquid fuels are at best, Messy. Suggesting a solution to transportation suing technology just as expensive and complicated to maintain as Gas, is a bald face attempt by OEMs to keep their lock on the wallets of drivers everywhere. Just because you can make H2 work, doesn't mean it is a good solution. Building out the infrastructure to deliver it would be as complicated as gas and diesel and detract from the infrastructure work to being clean and easy to maintain charging to the masses. Using H2 in combustion outside of airplanes and cargo ships is just silly...
8:20 is it Nicola?? I don't know any FCEV startup other than that.
That was too much of an inside baseball reference for me too
Is there a way to refill H2 at home?
No, hydrogen is stored at 10,000 psi in the nexo and mirai, meaning you'd need a 10,000 psi capable fueling pump.
This is not currently viable for personal use
Technically you could do it, and there's some dude on the East Coast that does... But it's not advised. LOL
The UK, is wasting money on trying find a way to pipe hydrogen to the home To replace natural gas.... So they can keep using the old crappy boilers....
@@nc3826 Maybe they should use it to synthesize octane (the 8-carbon liquid hydrocarbon) instead.
@@aliendroneservices6621 hydrogen or synthetic hydrocarbons would be far less efficient...
Maybe they should replace their old crappy boilers, with efficient heat pumps?
Since they already have a greener grid than the US on average....
KISS...
Now "this" works. It's affordable and makes sense, and far more friendly to the environment overall. There's not a single, credible engineer that will choose an EV over a hydrogen vehicle.
Hydrogen might be a good option if 1) the infrastructure existed outside of the handful of tiny markets around the world and 2) the hydrogen could be acquired in large numbers from a reasonable source (getting hydrogen from fossil fuels is a no go). The energy conversion efficiency is also pretty poor, especially if you consider the amount of energy required to generate the hydrogen in the first place.
Right now, hydrogen as a fuel source is about where EVs were in the 90s or early 2000s. Basically no infrastructure, no desirable vehicles being made, meaning they’re cars built for a tiny fraction of a percentage of the car buying market.
For me, I’ll stick with my Ioniq5. It’s way more interesting, way more powerful, and way more energy efficient. 90% of my “refueling” happens at home, so charging/refueling times are irrelevant. Almost all of the energy for charging is provided by hydroelectric, and the public charging infrastructure (when I need it) actually exists, and it exists across the country.
I test drive the suv it’s drive really smooth but it’s electric hydrogen suv but where can I charge vehicles if I live in a apartment
I am waiting for a turbine engine hybrid. Where you can burn anything liquid burnable (alcohol, etc.)
Great educational and review video.
Me, currently in college getting a minor in Chemistry and absolutely loving the explanation on how Fuel Cells work LOL
I agree FCV Hydrogen is the future. Both Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo are fantastic vehicles. The biggest problem is infrastructure in the US. I've been driving Honda Clarity FCV and Toyota Mirai for, total six years. More FCVs have sold, but they have not built additional Hydrogen stations for six years. So many FCVs have been waiting for a refill at Hydrogen stations for a long time. One near my home was closed for good. 2nd one closed for 3 months due to mechanical issues. 3rd one is only running so far. The situation is outrageous. People are upset and mad. If you think BEV gives you range anxiety? FCV gives you refill anxiety. Go, lease Tesla; the price is way down, long driving range, a good battery, and a spacious cabin. Model Y is cheaper than Toyota Mirai. Fuel Cell technology is excellent, but I have life.
Doris T: They can be "fantastic" all they want, but as long as the economics makes NO sense, even IF the hydrogen network were well built out, they won't catch on in the consumer market.
These are definitely cool vehicles from an engineering standpoint, regardless of the suspect economics of the fuel and infrastructure. However, to go on a nerd rant, the spec figures I see get quoted by HFCV marketing is just plain disingenuous - there's no way in heck this gets 67% efficiency, given that it only scored an EPA rating of 60 mpg-e. Maybe just the fuel cell alone is 67% efficient, without accounting for the battery and electric motors losses - but that's pretty lousy, and not something to write home about given that a li-ion battery is about 99% efficient. Given that it's only 60 mpg-e from the EPA figures, almost exactly half the efficiency of a Kona Electric or TMY, so from a tank-to-wheel standpoint there's no way this is much more than 40% efficient.
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future! Like, the 2100s.
This actually sounds like a good option for northern states.
It is an attractive vehicle, but that large "Hydrogen Powered EV" banner across the side hearkens back to GM's large, garish "Hybrid" banners across some of its large, inefficient hybrid SUVs in the 2000s. Don't do that.
uses 3x the electricity of an EV and far more complex parts to go the same distance. yea its totally the "future"!
Outstanding review, Alex. And your TED talk about the realities of Hydrogen and the lack of fueling infrastructure was on point.
So what are you buying next?
Saving the plug-in for the G90?
Or the fuel cell?
@@amigatommy7 Better the way Alex said: plugin Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle allowing use of electricity for commute and using Hydrogen on long road trips when needed. Wishful thinking?
battery swapping addresses the major drawbacks, that BEVs currently have, while still keeping its advantages, such as charging at home.
Let's hope battery swapping makes it to the US soon, so we can compare it to HFC-EVs.
(And we all know, HFC-EVs have been 5 to 10 years away from production, for the last 50 years ;)
@@nc3826 Tesla refused to continue with battery swapping after their huge enthusiasm in 2013 since it was considered unsuitable for the USA market...
Elon's battery swapping scheme was only about getting government money.... only fanboys pretend it had anything to do with suitability...
Like it or not China is bringing real
battery swapping to the rest of the world.... Let's hope the rest of the world catches on, and can compete with the Chinese options....
Plug-in hydrogen vehicles could be a neat idea. I like them but there would need to be a lot more stations to fuel up. After the nuclear fusion revolution and the infrastructure is built up to handle semi trucks, I suppose.
Nott really just higher production as the only things that take hydrogen now are Rockets and fuel cell cars in California and Japan. Like swapping jets and trucks from gas to hydrogen would do it.
So much more energy-dense in terms of fuel than a battery-powered EV, much faster "charging", and so much less polluting for the environment than a gasoline-powered car. I just wish hydrogen "gas stations" were more prevalent - maybe some day.
James May owns a Mirai 💁🏻
Consumers should be given choices. Hydrogen can be produced in a green way, commercial applications need hydrogen.
EV's is good for whoever has charging available at home.
This is an EV as well. It's an FCEV. BEVs use batteries for energy storage.
We basically need a startup like Tesla to come along that only makes hydrogen powered vehicles to build out the infrastructure and turn hydrogen from being a hobby into a feasible form of transportation.
Unless a cheap, effective, widespread hydrogen network gets good enough to be CONVENIENT and practical for private vehicle owners, I just don't see it, re hydrogen.
We have city buses that are hydrogen, and they refuel at the government run bus depot, and that works great. No fumes, and no need to drag around a huge heavy battery to power the bus. So as long as that's economic and reliable compared to BEV, fine and dandy.
But BEV owners can charge at home or anywhere there is a plug (with a rapidly growing network). I just don't see the equivalent of hydrogen at even a quarter of the gas stations (for example) without MASSIVE adoption of fuel cell private cars. And massive adoption won't happen without easy access to hydrogen, cheap and convenient, so game over, except maybe for CA and the odd exception here and there.
I am getting one
They need to start investing in hydrogen stations and start with long range trucks and buses. And the people need to wake up and see how far fuel cells have developed for passenger car use. It’s very possible but everybody needs to shake their heads and see the limits of batteries only.
One kilo of Hydrogen cost between €18,- and €25,- where i live. That's $20,- to $27,-. That makes this car useless.
I think another start up company that goes directly at Suburbans/Escalades with hydrogen sounds like the best chance for a break through, based upon what you described.
I would like a hydrogen Hummer.
He's going on and on with stats that mean nothing. An Ioniq 5 will take you 99.99% of your mileage needs so the "extra capacity" is entirely useless, especially as it's much more expensive to fuel.
While he says 45 minutes to full on an Ioniq 5, it's less than 18 to 80%, which will still deliver two and a half hours of driving range - again, more than enough to get you to a rest stop or your destination.
We don't NEED bigger batteries in EVs than are currently there. 50-75Kwh is plenty.
And having "well over 350 miles of real world range" in your Hydrogen car is entirely useless as a statistic when you can't go that distance as there aren't any filling stations en route. All you have is 175 miles of range before you need to turn right round and head back again because otherwise you'll run out of fuel before you get home.
An Ioniq 5 can go further than 175 miles.
It's a useless slew of statistics. Simple fact is that you CAN'T long distance one of these, the additional range they offer is unnecessary and the Charing time is a non issue, seeing as though most EV charging happens at home overnight - you don't have to GO somewhere to do it.
And, as stated in my previous post, the inefficiency of electrolysing water, compression, transport, further compression, delivery, chemical recomposition, charging the drive battery and then using that to move the wheels is RUINOUSLY inefficient - which is why 70% of hydrogen used in these things - even in many stations in California (as stated in the video) - still comes from Natural Gas,... Which produces CO2 that an EV might not.
Alex is honest about a few of these flaws and correct in saying that the technology is still 15-20 years away from anything mainstream but here's the thing:
WE DON'T HAVE 15-20 YEARS. On the question of climate change, we simply don't have time to waste on waiting for this stuff to "Mature" and THEN go mass market. We are bang out of time.
ANYTHING, at this point, that gives people a reason to WAIT to change out of gas cars is BAD. Promising a hydrogen future just delays the end of fossil fuel use. It's too late to be pulling this shit.
I wonder if this is sustainable if it is scaled. If everyone uses hydrogen cars in the future is it possible to produce enough renewable hydrogen for everyone in America? For BEVs that may be solved with nuclear then fission in the future
If they solve scaling green 100% renewable hydrogen generation nationwide, we'll see mainstream use.
Toyota has created a built-in electrolyser. Just add water and the electrolyser does the rest. Problem solved.