Living With A Hydrogen Car (Toyota Mirai) Did NOT Go As Expected: Here's What Happened
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ย. 2021
- ( tfl-studios.com/ ) Check out our new spot to find ALL our content, from news to videos and our podcasts! Hydrogen cars offer a lot of great benefits, but what is it like to actually live with hydrogen on a daily basis? Tommy finds out by trying to refuel the 2021 Toyota Mirai...with unexpected results.
( / tflcar ) Visit our Patreon page to support the TFL team!
In this video I try seeing what it would be like to live with a car powered entirely by hydrogen, the new Toyota Mirai!
Watch more videos from TFL Studios:
The Fast Lane Truck ( / tfltruck )
The Fast Lane Car ( / tflcar )
TFLoffroad ( / tfloffroad )
TFLbike ( / @tflbike )
TFLnow ( / tflnow )
TFLclassics ( / tflclassics )
TFLtalk ( / tfltalk )
TFL Podcasts:
TFL Talkin' Cars Podcast ( tflcar.libsyn.com/ )
TFL Talkin' Trucks Podcast ( tfltruck.libsyn.com/ )
#Toyota #Hydrogen - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I have a 2019 Mirai. Great car. The issues with hydrogen are not just waiting in line for four cars, sometimes it's waiting in line for 10 cars, oftentimes stations are completely down. It is far more of a hassle than
this video makes it seem. I love my car, but hydrogen is huge issue, not a minor inconvenience.
@Zolar Czakl nah its a condensation pipe so no noise
@Zolar Czakl in the current hydrogen cars they are basically an EV but with a hydrogen battery. I’m pretty sure the tail pipe is for oxygen emissions since the process to gain energy from hydrogen creates water and oxygen. Toyota has been working on engines that will burn hydrogen like an ice car but it has not been very successful so far.
@Zolar Czakl They are both EV's.
@@paulbedichek2679 Let’s clarify the EV statement so that people understand the differences. A hydrogen car, as the presenter showed, is a car that uses an electric motor, a small battery, several large fuel tanks, and a fuel cell to make electricity to feed to the motor and the battery. It uses high pressure H2 fuel, and it exhausts H2O (water). The H2 comes from a variety of sources, mainly (called “green” hydrogen) the hydrolysis of water using electricity and some sulfuric acid, or (worse, called “blue” hydrogen) processing natural gas with steam reforming that strips out the hydrogen from it leaving CO2 as a waste product (the very gas that “green” technologies are supposed to eliminate). The H2 is safe so long as it is transported and supplied with the correct equipment and is not safe to send through pipes for fueling at your home. Thus, you need to go to a fueling station for all of your fueling needs; you can’t put your home’s electricity into the “electric vehicle” to get it to move.
A BEV has a large battery, an electric motor, and that’s basically it. You usually charge it with your home’s electricity, and outside of your normal local driving envelope (long trips), you will stop at charging stations. Since it charges with pure electrons, any method of making electricity can be used to fuel the car. You can use grid electricity (which may use coal, natural gas, and nuclear energy as well as clean. renewable forms such as wind or solar), or you can (like me) have solar panels on site to generate the energy yourself. Heck, it’s theoretically possible to have a bunch of hamsters on exercise wheels hooked up to tiny generators in parallel to make the energy, it doesn’t matter. If you can make the energy and put it in your home system, it can go in the car. Thus, there is no bottleneck or losses of having to make a fuel with electricity that has to be transported and pumped into a car at a specific station that your car can then turn it into something else to get the electricity to provide motive power. Instead, pure electrons are stored directly into the battery then supplied directly to the motor at super high efficiency (90-97%).
Thus, BEVs are a more pure and simple concept for an electric vehicle than a hydrogen fuel cell EV. It is also more convenient, requires less maintenance and has fewer parts. The electricity can be made yourself, or you can buy it from the grid or from charging networks. Charging can occur anywhere a plug is present; I keep a mobile charger in my car so that on a trip to a relative’s house I can charge the car at their house and pay them $5-10. Almost all of the miles driven with a BEV will be done using electricity that came from the user’s own home electricity network. Even if the hydrogen infrastructure is built out to a level similar to gasoline, fueling costs are always going to be more expensive due to all of the extra processing and transportation involved. It’s not cleaner, it’s not cheaper, it’s not more convenient. It is as close as Toyota and Shell can get to a “green” vehicle technology that stays with the old paradigms and players. As a happy BEV for the last 3 years, I think it’s doomed.
Fair enough. But surely that's an _infrastructure_ problem rather than a problem with the car itself.
I like the concept of hydrogen, but one big advantage for EVs is the ability to fill up at home. I never ever wait for a public charger. Hydrogen could be a great long range hauler though.
I don't know about long haulers. I think it might be better for regional fleets that return to home base every night. Then they can fuel up at night at the depot. Kinda like they do now for certain LPG trucks near me.
Yea but you get three years of refuelling for free
What about those who live in the city in an apartment complex? You'd need to charge in a public station which becomes costly. Hydrogen car would effectively be the same as a modern efficient gasoline car/hybdrid which can take you 800km with one tank. No-one has ever considered filling up your gasoline car at a gas station as an issue. But sure, if you have your own charging station in your back yard and you drive medium distances, then EV is great.
Unless you live in apartments where you have no access to a personal charger.
Apartment / condo charging is a fixable problem for BEVs. It costs ~$1000 to install a EV charger if you install a bunch at a time like in a mid/large apartment complex. That's less than 1 month's rent in many US cities.
Where I live, I can already see that there are some apartments that have EV charging spaces. This number will only increase over time, and at some point EV charging will become as common as an apartment that has a stove or refrigerator.
Being able to recharge the EV at home is the best thing about EVs for me ... a friend has put Solar panels everywhere (that don't need electricity to operate) and he recharge his EVs for free.
How much did he pay for the solar system...and what happens in winter or on cloudy days??.🤣🤣
@@caravanstuff2827 ... did you actually think you've made a point with your comment? WTF. None of your "points" are even in the remotest a problem nowadays.
@@chrisobber5604 dreamer!!!.🤣🤣🤣
@@caravanstuff2827oi winter or cloudy days charge your car with the grid
@@chrisobber5604yes because when you talk about "free charging" and spend thousands on solar panels, it's a problem
Just filled my first tank this morning. Pain in the neck. But I fell in love with the car at the first try, and I still love it even after going through the pain. :) Yes, the car is that good!
How much did it cost to fill it up?
@@ou812invu6 😂
@@ou812invu6 free, toyota provide over 9000$ worth of free hydrogen.
Do they rust ¿?
@@ou812invu6 $125 right now for 5kg, get you about 300 miles range. $0.42 per mile.
We bought our 2017 as a CPO days before the Pandemic. My wife worked at home and I basically taught my 16 year old who is 18 now how to drive with it. 16K for the car 15K fuel card 0.9% financing for 72 months.
All the issues Tommy had we’ve had, but I fill it up early in the morning at either Studio City or Hollywood. My wife works in El Monte and we live in Burbank. 42 mile a day round trip and we get about 250 a tank.
My son is at UCI now and they have a station there. When he becomes a sophomore he will use it to commute on the weekends.
We did have the fuel cell go out and I understand that was quite costly, but free for us as it was under warranty.
Hope this helps anyone looking for one. Longo has a grip of them available in El Monte.
UC stations are more expensive than those gas station with hydrogen option.
15k fuel card ?
@@aldossnow3703 he talked briefly about the fuel card in the video.
@@aldossnow3703
Yes you get a 15K fuel card when you buy a CPO from certain dealers. The trick is using within the 3 year period that it is active.
I live in the SF valley and I see only 1/2 stations I am serious looking into this car only thing that worries me is trips to San Diego etc don’t want to be stuck
That hydrogen station line was the biggest reality hit when I saw you pull up to it. 😆
I hope hydrogen cars prosper and the technology advances. It's always good for us consumers to have options, and see what hydrogen cars can become.
One thing not so good about hydrogen car is that the tank has to be very big and takes up space in the car regularly electric vehicles just uses a flat high voltage battery and now a days been seeing electric trucks and vans because it’s easy just to put an high voltage battery underneath the car
It shows that the technology will have to have either enter wide spread adoption fast and deal with waiting in long lines and hydrogen costing more than gas and then grow the charging network overtime or put a massive massive investment in a technology that has only sold 10,000 cars since 2014
For perspective Tesla sold 22,000 cars in 2013
The thing is though.
Cars in general are going to get very, very expensive. Sadly many people in the UK and Europe are going to be priced off the road unless we see a huge increase in other schemes such as Car Leasing, Car Clubs and Car Sharing.
@@neilburns8869 the future is car-less or ridesharing only. Autonomous will remove private vehicle ownership.
I'm sure when petrol cars first appear queuing for petrol was probably just as bad
Horse powered vehicle drivers must have ribbed car owners the same way today's car drivers make fun of EV car drivers
Had a used first-gen Mirai since September 2021 (which I made my own video about) myself. The biggest problem has got to be the fact that Toyota didn’t create their own hydrogen refueling networks the way Tesla and Rivian did EV charging networks - vehicle sales, after all, should pay for maintenance. The Mirai, therefore, suffers from the same problem that non-Tesla EVs suffer from when it comes to reliability, with True Zero essentially being the Electrify America of the hydrogen world - with the added problem, of course, of there being far fewer hydrogen stations around than EV charging stations, even in California where the hydrogen stations are most abundant, and outside California? Well, it gets that much worse - try to take a road trip in a Mirai and the only direction you can go is north; if you try to go east you’ll find a complete vacuum with no refueling available whatsoever. It’s a great vehicle but the infrastructure sucks, to put it mildly.
You can make your own hydrogen. That is the major point of interest in hydrogen. Basically hydrogen can work with an AirBnB model.
@@gabrielrousseau_NM Not at the extreme pressures and extremely low temperatures needed for FCV refueling. To get it to H70 pressures (that’s 70 megapascals or 10,000psi and some change) you’d need not only an electrolyzer hooked up to solar and home plumbing but also some very expensive gas cylinders to store it for later use, not to mention an expensive cryocooler to get it cold enough that it doesn’t blow up the container it’s stored in.
@@kennystrawnmusic Understood. Still worth doing. Those cylinders are not more expensive than several fill-ups at a gas station these days. Once it becomes normalized the expense will definitely become feasible.
@@gabrielrousseau_NM The only energy source that could possibly be cost-effective enough to normalize H2 is thermonuclear (i.e. fusion) power. You’d need 2 Helion Polaris reactors per production facility - one to synthesize 3He and the other to power the electrolyzers - in the hands of either True Zero or Iwatani in order to bring costs down to a reasonable enough level to encourage large-scale FCV adoption, and those Helion reactors aren’t going to be on the market until 2024 at the earliest.
@@gabrielrousseau_NM Actually , its not worth doing and it never will be . Its a huge net loss of energy . Nobody wants to exchange 100 units of fuel for 23 and pay 16x more for fuel that comes from monopolies worse than oil companies. The extraction process during the the past 100 years has not improved or shows any promise in the future . The biggest goal for Hydrogen is to bring the cost down from $16 to $10 per liter . Of course if this was achieved , it still comes at a 77% loss of energy at 10X the cost of electricity . Compare to battery technology that is already much better and rapidly improving. The Tesla model 3 can run 250 miles on $5 electricity . The Toyota Mirai uses $80 per 250 miles and the Hydrogen used requires 4x the electricity.
Hydrogen has been increasing in cost. When I purchased 3 months ago cost 17.89 now Dec 22 $23.19 stations offering hydrogen VERY SCARCE WHEN THEIR working. No support when told to call the 844 number listed. Sunday 2pm phoned as stated by machine as it was not on-line as of now Monday 6pm still no call. If more operable stations were available THAT WOULD BE GREAT!! I do love the car. It’s a great drive, quiet car, smooth drive.
My guess is now that Toyota is producing competitive EVs, hydrogen for consumer use is dead. This was a compliance car to hold off the regulators till Toyota was comfortable with their EV tech.
I've sat in line at Costco waiting for gas longer that 30 minutes, lol. That's not that bad.
Exactly.
For cheaper fuel, and still not as good as waking up to a full charge from your driveway.
Imagine doing that every time you fill up. What a pain in the ass. 5 minutes to fill up my car. Stop ignoring MAJOR problems to virtue signal. This is not a solution.
@@bpregont it takes approximately 5 seconds to plug in an EV in your garage, then you walk away and it's full the next morning. Way less time/hassle than going to a gas station. And 5-7 times cheaper.
Assuming you have a garage. If you live in a different arrangement, good luck.
One thing they didn't tell you and mostly missing in most review for Toyota Mirai is that even though it's a big car it has very little cargo space,fuel cell power train occupied a lot space
It look small inside, compare to a electric car built on a dedicated EV platform.
@@DavidKnowles0 That's another area where hydrogen cars aren't mature, space utilization.
@@benjaminsmith2287 Or maybe just the reality of physics. You can increase energy density in batteries, probably multitudes above what we have today. You can't compress Hydrogen much further. It is like trying to store a gallon of liquid in a quart container. Physically impossible. Hence, not sure how much room for improvement there is as the Hydrogen tanks will always require space, and there is no real way to shrink them.
@@redbaron6805 hmmmm. Probably dont expect batteries to get that much butter any time soon. If sony or panasonic had secret sauce they would bring it out and dominate the market. Maybe slight margins sure
@@benbaker405 Batteries are improved gradually with occasional bursts of innovation. But, the amount of research going into batteries now is probably 100x the amount that was going into battery research a decade ago. Because there are so many places doing it, there will be a lot of advances in the coming decade.
There are also efficiency improvements throughout the car. The first Tesla Model S had a 85kWh battery pack and range of 265 miles, traveling 3.11 miles per kWh. The Tesla Model S today has 402 miles of range with a 100kWh battery pack, traveling 4.02 miles per kWh.
So, despite a larger battery pack which should have made the car less efficient, they improved the car in other areas making it far more efficient.
Because of that, we may be overlooking progress in other areas beside batteries. There is a lot of research and improvements on the motors and drive systems themselves, making them lighter and more efficient also. In many ways we are running into the efficiency ceiling on combustion engines, as they require increasing complexity to squeeze out just a had more MPG. It took combustion engines around 18 years to get 30% improvement in efficiency, it took electric cars less than 10. And electric cars are already at 145Mpg equivalent efficiency but combustion engine cars haven't really cracked 40Mpg.
Based on that, batteries will play a role in getting energy density improvements but there are still other areas where EV's can boost efficiency, using heat pumps. low friction wheel bearings, low drag braking systems, more efficient electronics, etc.
I guess the freezing is kind of like filling a bike tire with C02 and the valve will sometimes freeze to the inflator. Thaws out pretty fast but that only takes a couple seconds to inflate.
As always another great video. very interesting, I see city buses running on hydrogen, so I've often wondered how that works. Keep up the good work.
The more I learn about it the more I think hydrogen would best serve commercial fleets, especially long haul trucks, busses, and especially in aviation. 10k psi is a lot of potential energy and those systems will need a regimented inspection and maintenance program to avoid a catastrophic failure as years and miles wear on the components. I also think consumers will prefer being able to skip the filling station and just plug in at home, at least for those who have the option. It definitely has a place in the future, but I doubt we will see a lot of options for the average commuter.
I don't want something else to plug in at home. There's enough of that going on in our lives.
@@putmeincoach7663 Judging by the average age of cars these days you should still be able to get a tank of gas for another 40 or 50 years. Even the hard line states are only talking about restricting the registrations on new gasoline/diesel cars, not the renewal of old registrations. I'm just making an estimate based on the challenges of filling up with pressurized hydrogen over charging a battery.
There's a huge majority in large cities who don't have private garages to safely plug in their electric cars. These hydrogen systems are extremely robust.
As an owner of a 2021 Mirai, I think hydrogen fuel cells are best in larger vehicles (SUV and trucks) due to the greater energy density of hydrogen vs. batteries. I can't charge at home so hydrogen is a great alternative to burning oil.
Well being in the trucking industry most companies have run down trucks breaking down all the time inspections are pretty lack luster. Would not trust them with hydrogen ones.
"the busier it is the slower it goes" yeah I think that's the opposite of what you want...
That's what happens a EV station too.
The technology is in its infancy. Shell is tearing down a station in Torrance and building a new one after learning of the deficiencies of their current pumps.
@@Robert-cu9bm That used to be true at v2 Super Chargers, but v3 250kW chargers do not share power between adjacent stalls, everyone gets full power. Also, Tesla is fairly good at adding more stalls to busy locations, or laying on temporary charging trucks at known busy times like thanksgiving, pebble beach etc.
@@brushlessmotoring Thanks for this; it's good to know.
Sounds like my computer
When you hear “nozzle” and “nipple” in the same sentence you know it’s some serious stuff. 😃
love seeing the queue and H2 cars in this video, the number of H2 cars is growing..... such a busy station should surely be a sign for more installs in that location - maybe ditch a few of the gasoline pumps to make space. here in the UK we only have a dozen stations nationwide... need more.
You have less now - shell closed 4 in the UK, it cost millions to service them for only a few hundred thousand in sales, and they were no longer getting EU funding for hydrogen initiatives.
One other thing re the frozen nozzle: it's about condensation caused by the Temperature difference between the outside air temp and the hydrogen. It is worse on hotter days. Haven't had a problem when it's below 60 degrees. And worst it ever is is a minute or two.
without the infrastructure, yup nada on the consumer level. If it is "cheap" to make the Hydrogen, then it probably be a local fleet thing like buses. At least with electric you can fillup at home or at a strangers house.
Dirty hydrogen made from natural gas is bad for the environment, and green hydrogen, requiring 2.5× more renewable electricity then putting that electricity straight into a battery, is very expensive.
Reviewed by Shannon Martin, Licensed Insurance Agent. Some cars are expensive to purchase, while others are expensive to own. It could cost a fair amount to fill up a Toyota Mirai; the average cost of hydrogen fuel is $16 per kilogram. Since the Mirai holds an average of 5 kilograms, you would be paying around $80.
Yep. Only reason it sells is the subsidies. Otherwise it’s same cost as a gas car with less places to fuel? Why not a BEV or plug in hybrid? They are really cheap used. Ppl are smart.
@@quboguo2360 The fuel cost is 4x that of gasoline and 16X the price of electricity used on a Model 3 Tesla. To make matters worse , it takes 4x more energy than running on electric batteries. Toyota has been promoting the hoax because they really don't have much EV tech . No company actually invests in this without grants and government tax credits.
Great Video! I started following the growth of the california hydrogen economy when I began my engineering undergrad in 2014. Toyota had the first gen Mirai at the Santa Monica EV Autoshow on showcase along with a model engine(fuel cell stack). It's amazing to see how far Toyota has pushed this vehicle. While the hydrogen fueling infrastructure has slowly progressed over the last decade, I see this as an opportunity for market growth that has the potential to drive rapid innovation. Renewables are the future! The sooner everyone realizes this, the sooner we will see government backed strategies to build the infrastructure we need to make this technology economically viable for all.
That will literally never happen. It simply isn't cost effective. Hydrogen has a future in heavy trucking, buses, ships, even airplanes. Their future in passenger cars is about the same as the steam engine. There simply isn't one.
No one is going to get a Hydrogen car that cost $90 to fill when you can charge your electric car for $9. The Hydrogen tanks on the car, the fuel cell and everything else is also life limited. The car is placarded DO NOT FILL AFTER XX/XX for that reason. The fuel cell lifespan is around 150k miles.
It is very difficult to impossible to find a compelling case for a Hydrogen passenger car. It simply doesn't exit.
Renewables are not the future keep your soy as s down
@@dodgedemonsrtx ligma?
This is no harder than filling a car with lpg. I owned a Volvo V40 Bifuel which from the factory could run on unleaded petrol (gas) or lpg (an actual gas!). Twin fuel tanks/ fillers/ gauges and lpg was half the price of unleaded. The fill up procedure was very similar to the hydrogen system- lock the nozzle on, press a button, and when you were finished you uncoupled with a little hiss of gas. The nozzle was always freezing cold too 🥶🏴
Lpg is stored as a liquid. So its not in a gaseous state in the tank, nor when fuel is transferred. The fuel vapor pressurises the fuel to keep it in a liquid state, and prevent it from boiling. Once liquid hits the air it will vaporize almost immediately, if your not careful and there is still liquid in the nozzle because you didn't bleed off the pressure, you can burn yourself if the liquid hits your skin. You should always use insulated gloves whenever transferring fuel, if your not careful you can injure yourself pretty badly. Trust me, i know from experience.
@@BigMateo24 yeah I had a close call at a pump which looked like it hadn’t been used for ages. When I unlocked the nozzle there was a relatively large release of vapour which went all over my hand (no gloves). Luckily I ended up with just a red mark and that burning sensation for a few days. I was always a lot more careful after that 😬
@@BigMateo24 This, plus to ensure the 5 minute fill up the hydrogen gas is also cooled at around -40C to increase the density so the amount of hydrogen that can move per minute.
But combustion is still extremely inefficient, only 15% of the energy is used to make the vehicle move...
All forms of combustion engine need to go really.... Especially natural gas with the main component Methane being 80X more heat retaining than CO2...
@@koblongata I’m with you- I’ve got an i3 and a Q4 E-Tron now 👍🏻😂🏴
Wow that guy’s OTD price after incentives was only $25k - at that price I’d definitely be interested, frozen nozzle or not especially with a Lexus level interior
But what about winter? This thing was freezing on a hot day. I doubt this will even be an option for us up north.
I think that price was for a CPO car, not a new one. $45k in incentives doesn't sound very realistic to me.
thanks for the little tour around north county :) I miss it!
I'm from la costa - I recognized everywhere you went :))
Very beautiful video.
I've been driving the Toyota Mirai for years and am absolutely convinced of the technology and comfort.
I looked at fueling in California.
I live in Germany and our hydrogen filling stations work similarly, but they don't ice up.
With us it is possible to fill up your car within 4 minutes, even in the depths of winter. In Europe, the fuel nozzle is also similar to that of a conventional gasoline or diesel pump. So in Germany we don't have any problems with the system icing up.
You still need to improve this. There are now around 100 hydrogen filling stations in Germany and are expected to grow to 300 in the next few years. You can now travel easily through Europe with the Toyota Mirai. Not everywhere, but in many countries.
Great video. Please visit the SF Bay Area and check out the next generation H2 stations. We have 4 pumps in Sunnyvale and it’s great. I’m also on my second Mirai (leased the first one and bought the second one). I agree that H2 will be much more compelling once more stations are built. I’ve driven to/from Tahoe from the SF Bay Area and to/from San Diego and just need a bit of planning to make it work.
They will never be built cross country because hydrogen is a stop gap from Toyota to try to slow ev adoption.
It's not planning that's needed, it's another $100M in government subsidies to build another 40 stations. No other state has any plans. And Toyota and Hyundai obviously can't continue subsidizing the expensive cars and giving away the expensive fuel forever, at which point demand for the cars will drop even more.
Don't try to listen to H2 owners, they are trying to resell their cars so they have to say good things about H2 stations. Nothing wrong with the car, but H2 station is the worst. Yes, you can live with H2 experience, you won't die :), but how much you want to tortured yourself is another question
I just purchased one of these. Man I hope they take over cause I love my car so much. It’s the working man or woman’s car. I’m currently getting just over 300 miles per fuel up and my daily commute is 120miles round trip and up and over two high grade mountain freeways we have her in the Bay Area, the Sunol and altamont grades. Fueling takes at most five minutes and I’m. back on the road.
@@sonnybedez7040 how much u pay for mr.i let turbo tyrone bang my wife.
They can probably figure out a way to add a warmer to the fill nozzle for a future generation to counter the freezing issue
Doesn't seem like a difficult problem to solve.
Yeah, that’s a simple fix if these ever came to a full demand. Having some sort of flash Warmer to pull off the handle is a easy fix
Hair dryer on stand-by
Hydrogen + Electric warmer, what could go wrong
@@bindingcurve hydrocarbon pipes are regularly electrically heat traced. This is no different.
You get $15,000 or 3 years of fuel, whichever comes first, for three. That's worth the hassle. Also, carry around a bottle of water and pour that on the handle if it gets frozen to disconnect the nozzle.
You Cali types only think about Cali weather. Imagine carrying around a bottle of water in 20 below weather. Try dumping that ice cube on the nozzle and see what it does. You need some sort of anti freeze or lining the nozzle with a material that won't cause the two pieces to stick together to begin with.
@@ivankrushensky Hydrogen stations are only available right now in California, so its use in cold weather regions isn't at issue. I think there is a station up around Tahoe but haven't been there to see if they altered the pumps and handles to winter use.
Cold weather drastically reduces battery efficiency and range for both electric and hydrogen, so they probably aren't viable options for cold weather regions at this time until they come up with a fix or work around.
Seems like the freezing nozzle could be quite an issue up here in Canada with our very cold winters
I made this comment before, just not sure if it was this video.
It seems like this method of fueling should have been the bridge between gas and Battery Electric Vehicle’s (BEV), around the 2007-2015 time frame.
I own a BEV and most of my charging is done at home with a 240v outlet. I use the supercharger for road trips. For me, the hydrogen fuel cell seems to be a wasted third step especially since I charge at home. I can see the hydrogen fuel cell being an option for folks that live in apartments, drive long haul trucks and for aircraft use. However, for homeowners this doesn’t seem very practical.
I don't want to charge at home. My family is "plugged in" enough and we already have way more than enough devices to worry about keeping charged up.
@@putmeincoach7663 You already plug in a filthy industrial nozzle into a gas car. I would rather plug in a nice sleek charging cable than touch a clunky gas pump.
I think apartment / condo charging is only a temporary problem with straightforward solutions. Installing a new EV charger costs ~$1000 each if you're doing it in bulk (like in a large complex). Apartments could easily do it if forced to by local ordinances like in some places in Europe. However, even with no laws, the market will compel them to add them since BEVs are getting more and more popular.
It doesn't make sense to build out a hydrogen infrastructure for a temporary problem.
@@Empiro3 no argument here. I personally wouldn’t buy a HEV. I can simply plug into my house, charge and go. Not sure scraping that option for the option of fueling up at a designated charge point, unless I am on a road trip, is the way to go.
I disagree. I´m a homeowner and would go Hydrogen every day before BEV. The range and time to fill up is the gamewinner. In the future i hope that there will be plugin hydrogen fuelcell cars. Then one could charge at home for everyday driving and still have the range, fast refilling and towing capacity that hydrogen brings.
The Mirai is the only car with an expiration date
Toyota as a company has an expiration date as well.
And my cell phone has been plugged in for 2 days and got up to 17% charge. Two years old and time for a new one. All batteries have an expectation date.
@@jeffjohnson2273 I was referring to the hydrogen tanks
@@JAM_2024 right, the company that makes the longest lasting cars ironically has a expiration date.
@@andysupple4838 A hydrogentank will outlast att battery.
I remember way back when this tech was actually new, there was a hydrogen generation machine which was about the size of a fridge that you could install in your garage.
You just needed to to connect it to water and a power supply be it mains power or solar.
@@crf450ish not that I'm aware of, but it would take 3 to 4 times as much electricity to go the same distance a battery electric can - electrolysis loses about 25% and then the in vehicle fuel cell loses 50% of that remaining 75%, you end up with about 35% actually making it to the wheels.
A battery electric is around 95% efficient, wall to wheel (same losses for transmission to the home), and so costs 1/3 to 1/4 what a hydrogen electric fuel cell does - in metric, an battery electric uses 16kWh per 100km, whereas the hydrogen electric Mirai uses 52kWh per 100km (x1.6 for miles). If you could run a home hydrogen station, you could also just charge an EV and save money and hassle. I imagine the 10,000 psi compressor would be pretty loud too, and of course need even more electricity of its own to run.
I wonder what the pressure of that home station was the last time hydrogen was the "future" - I'm guessing the mid 1970's just after the Oil crisis?
@@brushlessmotoring I do believe they had several of those Hydrogen motors blow up so stopped selling them, problem is its very high pressure & doesn't smell so leaks are very hard to detect !
And *Remember the Hindenburg* !
@@davidhess6593 Hydrogen wasn't the problem with Hindenburg. The thermit coating of the outer skin was. Beside that. In a car, hydrogen is under pressure. If there is a leak in the tank and a flame nearby. It still won't explode or burn like Hindenburg. Instead you will have a short flame straight from the leak in the tank. Very much like a cutting torch.
@@frankandersen7854 Suppose you have a bad accident and the high pressure tank ruptures? And would you serious keep one of those bombs in your garage?
Tommy thanks so much for your video on the Toyota 'Beta-Max' hydrogen car. I am glad they are exploring EV alternatives.
Haha
leasing the mirai now I can totally relate to the fueling pain.....:(
How long is the lease, what are you likely to get next?
One thing that proponents of hydrogen always talk about is that "hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe". While true it is misleading. I'm surprised how willing this presenter is to just gloss over this, it's deceitful. Hydrogen here on earth is mostly bound with other elements, H2O, NHx, etc. It takes more energy to break these bonds and isolate the hydrogen then you'll get in return. Then even more energy to compress, liquify, store and transport. The most common hydrogen industrial production methods also produce CO, carbon monoxide, as a byproduct. Hydrogen in even best case scenarios is worse in efficiency than an ICE car, or about half as efficient as battery electric. There are plenty of breakdowns on TH-cam that work through the numbers on this. Hydrogen's only real advantage might be speed of refueling, but that seemed to be a fail in this video. Strange that Toyota would let a press event go this far off the tracks.
Actually, stupidity is the most abundant element in the universe...
@@buckhorncortez Stupidity isn't an element and you have to be stupid to even believe that. ;-)
@Teo G interesting. Please share the process that produces H2 so cheaply.
@@chuckadams9131 he's genetically engineered to piss out H2 and fart out O2 after ingesting H2O
@Teo G And this is, of course, why it cost $89 to fill up the car in this video. Because H2 production is so cheap.
I do hope as this process improves, they become far more available around the US within the next decade. I hope they get the cost down and get them more equivalent to compete if not beat hybrid cars, which seem like a long shot. My 16 Camry Hybrid does 41 miles to the gallon and I get the same version of my Camry that is a 2023 is pulling 51 miles per gallon. I sure hope this gets 1 hell of a lot better.
I was watching another TH-cam video in the past about a jell state that can be used with hydrogen which burns clean and doesn't have all this pressure at the pump. Hope that gets more vibes!
@Saint . The Hydrogen process requires a net loss of 77% and has never shown any promise . Its basically a huge step backwards at the equivalent of 10 mpg . Compared to the Tesla model 3 that uses $2 electricity per 100 miles. A typical Hybrid will use 2 gallons of fuel or about $9 and have only half as much power.
Your experience is acceptable because it’s new, most people would feel the same, but every day for a year you will find things that you really don’t like. The waiting will need to be improved.
Hydrogen just isn't for daily commuter.
It would be a huge gamble for someone to build the infrastructure and no one comes.
This would be a great technology for locomotives and ships.
They have the infrastructure here on Vancouver Island and Vancouver just north of Seattle. Saw one of these cars the other day.
@@joefau1
I know, you only get to drive in circles around Vancouver.
California has the most but the lines are long. Having troubles with freezing connections from not getting any rest filling up.
It will not work as a daily commuter.
That's why most are adopting EV.
Even Toyota and Honda are quietly pursuing EV. Toyota wasted so much in investing into Fuel cell for nothing. It will be good for locomotives and large ships.
Seattle is pursuing EV to replace the aging diesel ferries.
There's always a 2 products competing for attention. One always comes on top.
I think you know who the winner is😀
@@wt9653 im buying fuel cell stocks because i think there will be room for both 🤷♂️🤷♂️
@@joefau1
Yes there will be.
EV for most commuter vehicles.
Fuel cell for large ships and heavy equipment. Just don't bet on cars, busses, vans, and most of semi trucks.
Fuel cell vehicles are actual EV that is powered by hydrogen. Just too complex.
@@wt9653 I’m betting on Ballard power, they are in ships and stuff. Also with green energy maybe you could turn green energy into hydrogen then load it into a huge ship and ship it somewhere with less green energy. Lightener than a battery when storing energy, very light
The fueling cost is INSANE! I went BEV because of the stupid high gas prices in CA. This is an EV car too but even crazier prices. I absolutely love my Model Y. I can charge at home and don’t have to spend any time “fueling” up in a public location on a normal day. Road trip, or long trip yeah, supercharger but for a daily family car it’s amazing! Whats even better, it’s soo cheap to charge my car. Driving 1,689 miles and only paying $110 is INSANELY AWESOME!
Hallelujah brother. Pair it with solar and you power your house and vehicle with free energy from the sun you get every day. I only use superchargers when on a long trip, and my only complaint is how far you usually have to walk to use the bathroom or get a drink while waiting for a charge. Nothing cheaper or more convenient. To me, hydrogen is a dead idea being pushed by oil companies and old car companies that are in fear of having their paradigms disrupted. At least others like Ford, Hyundai and VW are getting it, but I fear Toyota won’t truly change until it’s too late.
Lame Model Y. Looks like a white good on wheels
@Glenn Millam Wow, you're a upper class rich person bragging about their $80k EV and their gated community home with solar panels. How humble. I don't get how people spend money on gas. Just buy a half million dollar house, $80k EV and $40k solar panels
You can make your own hydrogen. That is the major point of interest in hydrogen. It is super useful and can replace any natural gas coming into your home as well and much less dangerous than natural gas.
What's a Tesla Y Perfomance cost? In Australia $98,345
A small glycol heat trace line down the supply hose and small redesign of the nozzle (allowing for a concentric area for the heated glycol in the nozzle) would be a simple and safe solution to the nozzle freezing/sticking issue.
Hmmmm I would just use.a Bic lighter
A very informative clip, Tommy . Well done. From a simple logic point of view, using cows to power a car is the way of the future. What I wish someone would do is take a modern Toyota turboV6, this engine, a Toyota hybrid, and one of their all electrics and walk through the costs and sustainability elements through the life of say 100k , 150 k and 200K miles. Toyota si the ONE company that builds all the power plants well and has the answers. So, besides simply saying, the right power plant depends on the local situation, (and that’s why they take a multiprong approach to building greener engines,) Iwish Toyota would be more explicit about what the advantages and disadvantages are. Each country is in the the throngs of building out new electric car infrastructure: Is that really the right answer? Is the answer hydrogen? Or is it possibly better internal cumbustion? I, and I think every reader here, would just like the facts. Then we can make an informed decision. So Tommy…..people like you and Doug Demuro with wide influence are the ones that can push Toyota to set out the facts. Just sayin…..
Very cool, learned some new things about hydrogen fuel. Interesting how that filler nozzle can get frozen in place! Thanks Tommy!
I want one. Can't wait till I can fill up with Hydrogen in my garage at home.
Very interesting insight. The pump handle that freezes can have a heater coil built in to it that kicks on after pumping allowing one to remove the handle. Simple. For now I will stick to the simplicity of a gas pump
We don't have the freezing of the fuel nozzle in Germany.
Maybe America can learn something from German technology ⚙ 👍
Finding a cell phone mount that fits the car is difficult as well.
Technically this car is also powered by electricity, that's what the fuel cell does
Yes, badly.
True, but before it reaches the road, 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy has been wasted.
I was about to remind him of that but he made it clear (sort of) at about the 2:30 mark in the video. :-)
@@TheJAMF Yup , 77% loss . Total hoax.
This was an interesting video. Thanks for doing it!
I like my Honda CRV pure Hybrid.
All the benefits of an electric drivetrain with none of the hassles. Fuel efficient too.
The station just needs more hydrogen filling stations.
Give it time.
2-3 minutes of ACTUAL "charging" is great.
Well, in the video it was 5 minutes of charging and 15min of waiting. Same as a Tesla model 3 20% to 80%, and much more expensive.
Just get a Tesla and charge at home. It takes a few seconds to plug the car in whenever it is home. The car is always fully fueled every time you get in the car to go on a drive.
I can see a really high cost to keep this vehicle long term ( 5-10 years ) . High pressure tanks don't last and are expensive to replace x 3 tanks , etc a Total unknown factor . If hydrogen fails to go mainstream this will end up a awn ornament as no one will want to buy it on the second hand market . Looking into my crystal ball , I see 90% depreciation in 2 -3 years .
@@devinbender8428 It's rated for 15 years, which is longer than most cars last (average is 11.5 years).
@@devinbender8428 you would need a hydrogen leak AND an ignition source, very much unlike a lithium-ion battery, which can spontaneously combust all on it's own.
Hydrogen tanks are rated to last 15years, batteries 8-10years. 15 years is ok, not great but will surpace the lifetime of many vehicles. I don´t know the price of a hydrogentank change but i know that a 100kWh lithium battery change is expensive as hell.
@@windsolarupnorth7084 No, battery warranties are 8 to 10 years. At that point the battery doesn't suddenly stop working, it has decreased capacity.
@@windsolarupnorth7084 Don't know where you get " Hydrogen tanks are rated for 15 Years ". First up Hydrogen tanks have to maintain a very high pressure much much higher than Propane / LPG , or oxygen and acetylene bottles ( used for gas welding ) . LPG tanks used in cars are requiter to be pressure tested and inspected all over at 10 years and a lot need replacing . ( I've got a few LPG cars ) . Without the extreme high pressure you do not get the volume of gas so therefore the range . You need to move the gas in trucks to the fill up station in complex multiply tanks to achieve the high pressure and Volumes . Batteries inTesla Cars are lasting a long time lots of them in early Model S have done over 500,000 miles . Battery technology has moved leaps and bounds in the last 3 years , along with large cost reduction . At the moment nearly every house has electricity so you can plug your car in at night and early put 25-30 Kw in it ( about 150 mile range ) for about $4 , so running costs is about $400 -500 per year for 12,000 miles , distinct advantage over Hydrogen . The huge number of recharging station allow for long distance travel ( the electricity is much dearer of coarse , but you can top of a car in about 30 minutes after driving 300 miles .
Great video, thanks for showing us the fuelling process :-)
For a country like Japan, hydrogen powered vehicles may make since (it's not a big country). For the US, most of us cover long distances, so for hydrogen powered vehicles, to work, we'd need a greater network with appropriate number of filling pumps to make this work. Thats a big commitment to put this in. I would guess it is a greater cost than putting EV charging stations. I'm guessing if the solid-state battery ever gets here, hydrogen powered vehicles may fade away?
We are late adapters and have finally bought a BEV - a 2023 Bolt EUV for our city car. It's perfect for this duty as the longest round trip is about 150 miles so plenty of margin. Plug it in every day/night and you are good to go every morning. The hardest miles on a car is in town with warming up and stop and go traffic. The BEV is perfect for these duties. Going to a "HEV" would not make sense because I now have to go to a station to get your power.
But we also travel 800 miles a day several times a year. BEV's are not good for this as they take too long to refill and still have limited range per tank. When the Camry finally goes to a plug in Hybrid with a 50 mi all electric range, they will sell everyone they can make. This would be the vehicle to take for long trips you might make 1 stop for fuel and it would not have to be a long stop. It's not clear to me that a hydrogen car can beat a gasoline powered vehicle (that can go 50 mi/gal) for longer drives for the foreseeable future.
So, I am guessing as older drivers, when the PHEV Camry appears, that may be the last new car we may buy.
I am very familiar with Shell station where you are refilling. I get gas there frequently during the weekdays on commute to work or driving kids to school. It is in the heart of one of the most traffic intensive areas in San Diego so it makes sense that a lot of cars would fill there. I have noticed the Mirai cars refueling there when I am getting gas and there’s typically never more than two cars waiting.
The main drawback of like a infrastructure I would love to see them taking a Midwest and colder City and all these hydrogen vehicles do
I wonder how winter temperatures will affect this system and the pumps. I've driven CNG (compressed Natural Gas) truck and it really doesn't like the cold 45 degrees or less
Can't be worse than diesel which literally gels up
I have driven the Mirai to ski resorts around Lake Tahoe. Didn't notice any difference.
Freezes up less.Since both surfaces are already cold it's less condensation. Other than that, about the same.
FCEV have no penalty for cold weather, the opposite.
my unlce had a van back in the 90's old chevy fullsize van rigged up for propaine....stupid cheap to run n drive n all..but in the winter...HOOOO BOY! once its started n running its great because propaine burns hot....like real hot....BUT! BUTT!!!!! When its off and sits and it gets cold -30c up here in canada during the winter we had the tanks freeze up and van no go....we ended up strapping two car battery warmers to the tank and plugged them in each night to stop that from ever happening again....
I delivered hydrogen to the few stations we have in Vancouver, it is an unbelievable complex system right from loading the truck to delivering at the station I never did know how much cost to set up a station but it’s gota be scary , lots of bugs to be worked out system was down lots but maybe one day.
I'm so glad you addressed this.
It has been my biggest regret. I've been behind 7 cars at a time and it's a very long wait time.
Next one will be an EV for sure
@mikepepper8395 So you prefer to be behind 7 EV cars in a waiting line instead? Try do a calculation and see how many EV charging stations is needed when everyone has switched to EV cars. I can tell you so much that already now there is a waiting line for EV charging at hubs during holiday travel. Don't want to be in those lines when everyone has an EV car and need to recharge doing a holiday trip.
Very enlightening video, Tommy! Personally, I think this application is best used for commercial fleet vehicles. I hope all of you at TFL are enjoying a wonderful holiday weekend.
So Hydrogen will require the OEMs to build out the infrastructure? Seems like an uphill battle.
It would certainly help.
I am not a fan of electric cars but fixing a used hydrogen car wont go well with so many parts
Physics of hydrogen production is the real uphill battle.
Definitely not viable for passenger vehicles. But if they can make it cost effective it might work for depots like urban city truck deliveries, busses, etc.
It's actually considerably less daunting than EV automakers faced in "building out" the infrastructure for electric vehicles.
I bought a Toyota Yaris Cross Hybrid in March and
It is easily the best car that I have ever owned after 46 years
Of driving + the 75 MPG is a great Bonus 👍 🇬🇧
thanks for sharing your experienced on this mirai...
They'll work the bugs out of the hydrogen filling process. Having a heated collar around the nozzle would make disconnection much easier.
Just pour water over it
@vintagelightman83 Heat capcity. its enourmous for water. 4.186 J/g/K in other words not a chance to freeze the water
Back in the day, our door handles/locks would freeze and you needed deicer (it came as a spray) to fix it. You just sprayed it in the lock and boom, you were good to go. Cars don't seem to do that anymore. But a deicer or coating the nozzle with a material (maybe teflon?)....seems like this could easily be fixed.
Very informative, Tommy. Thank you! Love the look of this car too. I'll wait on the hydrogen craze but reviewer with the best car brand.
The wait will go down when more “pumps” are available. Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars make a lot more sense to me than typical electric cars.
I just purchased one of these. Man I hope they take over cause I love my car so much. It’s the working man or woman’s car. I’m currently getting just over 300 miles per fuel up and my daily commute is 120miles round trip and up and over two high grade mountain freeways we have her in the Bay Area, the Sunol and altamont grades. Fueling takes at most five minutes and I’m. back on the road.
Killed it for me. Will come back in a few years to reconsider.
It looks like hydrogen-fueled cars will take a long time to catch on, compared to electric and hybrid vehicles
Not for anyone who needs to travel long distances or tow.
@@devinbender8428 Green hydrogen will be very important for making plastics, cement, steel, jet fuel, and fertilizer, plus energy storage where the hydrogen is burned in gas plants. No chance for cars.
@@charliedoyle7824 Disagree, the technology is great for trucks and SUVs due to the energy density of hydrogen vs. batteries.
@@Chad-xs2de in large trucks hydrogen does have a chance. Not so for SUVs, which are just cars.
Hydrogen will never and should never catch on, because all types of hydrogen require Carbon Capture to make themselves green.
But no one can prove how well Carbon Capture works, how much CO2 pumped underground will stay underground and how much will leak, how much underground can hold, no one can prove that. It will be the biggest gamble in human history if we rely on Carbon Capture (hydrogen).
239 miles isn’t a full tank. One of the biggest issues with these cars is that the fueling stations just won’t fill the cars up. They will cut out too soon and just give you a partial tank of Hydrogen.
I think we ARE looking at the future! Great info and the comment section is edifying too. Thanks everyone 👍
I am still holding out for the BMW Hindenburg SUV to hit the market.
Enlightening video. Thank you.
I like this cars styling/proportions. To me, its the direction they should've gone with the Avalon. I wish it wasn't just a fuel cell vehicle, and had a whole range of powered options.
Surely to resolve the freezing issue they could just adapt the nozzle or the valve on the car to have a heating element? The pump is already communicating with the car via sensors it's just a minor step forward to make it sense when it's frozen and turn on some slow heating
I never have to wait for an outlet to be available at my house for our EV. I’m not road tripping on a daily or even weekly basis, so the BEV is far more convenient in my use case
Toyota downvoted this comment.
I don’t have a charger at home or work, so BEVs don’t work for me, as they don’t for millions of apartment dwellers. Hydrogen car has been perfect for my needs. Fast refueling and 400 miles range. My average refueling time in south SF bay has been 10 mins for 400 miles. Much better than any BEV can do.
@Teo G I get my electricity from 100% renewable energy. Where does the hydrogen come from?
@@AnalogueKid2112 Hydrogen for FCEVs in California is 93% green, whereas most BEVs charge at night, when the electricity mix is decidedly heavily coal and fossil fuel generated. Add to that the fact that manufacturing, mining, processing and disposing batteries is extremely polluting, and it’s clear as day that FCEVs are far more environmentally friendly than BEVs. This is not to say BEVs are not needed - they are greener than ICEs just not the ultimate green solution.
@@GautamPrabhakar sorry but that's just not true. According to the US Department of Energy, 95% of hydrogen made today is made by natural gas reforming. That's worse than most ICE cars.
The environmental impact of battery manufacturing is *vastly* overstated by the hydrogen lobby. In fact, if you compare the lifecycle GHG emissions of an EV running on renewables like mine vs a conventional car, the greater manufacturing emissions are compensated for in a matter of months of usage.
Furthermore, can you drive a hydrogen car across the US? No, it's simply impossible. I can drive an EV from California to New York with only a bit of extra effort.
Hydrogen is a farce and simply a way for Toyota to greenwash and continue to pump out gas guzzlers. If they actually cared about the environment, they wouldn't be going down that road and recognize that EVs are the only way to reduce transport GHG before we run out of time.
So we use electricity to make the hydrogen, then change it back to electricity?
Yeah. But, using 3x the electricity per mile than if we'd just charged up a battery EV (because it takes energy to change water to hydrogen and back to water). The filling station is complex and costs $1M.
Which is why it's $89 to fill up a H2 EV rather than $9 for a Battery EV plugged in at home (for the same range).
Yes, you have to use energy to create fuel - it isn't a Mr. Fusion.
@@sanders555 sounds like an electric car with extra steps
@@dc42nr86 Okay? I'm assuming you know how gasoline cars operate ...
@@sanders555 whoosh
10,000 PSI!? In a GAS STATION!? I used to run big triplex pumps in the oilfield and when we hooked up the 10,000 psi hoses, nobody was allowed within 85 meters. When they blow, it's a big deal. It's a bomb.
The instructor of my Chem 101 class in the fall of 1955 was excited about fuel cells. He was convinced that all cars would soon be powered by fuel cells. That was 66 years ago.
That was also before Li-ion batteries existed when H2 just had to compete with lead acid or NiFe batteries which were heavy and did not store much energy. Then H2 made a little more sense. At a million dollars per H2 bowser it will be the taxpayer that subsidises the refuelling infrastructure for H2 vehicles just to please the oil barons that own the natural gas that gets turned into commercial H2. Clean H2 from electrolysis ? That has existed for a hundred years but no one uses it commercially because it is too expensive.
One more reason why I love California
Your tax dollars at work! Search for "Why is California wasting millions on hydrogen fuel pumps?" - shocking numbers. $2,800,000 per pump compared to $50,000 for a DC fast charger and $2,000 for an AC charger.
I like the look of this technology. Living in Australia where there can be long distances in the outback I see potential here, Where can we go with range in a 4WD.
@coingecko you good bro?
what makes you think that?? the range was very limited!! PLus the Hydrogen was $$expensive
@@mylesl2890 well this technology wil only get cheaper as years go by and more efficient
@@xray40gamez75 They said that years ago and will continue to repeat the same line for years to come.
@@starshipdriver8536 and ultimately it has - the original fuel cell vehicles were so expensive no one could really purchase them and the fuel cost was much more expensive. Now I see plenty on the road here in SoCal and yea fuel is still expesnive but not as much. not to mention the $15,000 fuel card they give u
Problems that can be surpassed - realizing just few years back we also had NO EV chargeup stations. The danger today for EV stations will arrive with sufficient grid line supply due to overdemand. That is a much more complex required add on than simply flatdeck lifting an electrolysis unit to a conventional gas station and then linking to a conventional electrical grid. The electrical demand for x amount of Electrolysis stations will be far far less than the electrical demand from y (millions) of more EV units.
Eversource electric company has a fleet of 2000-2004 Chevy cavaliers that run on hydrogen they had them for quite a few years and then they got rid of them because there are no hydrogen pumps. They actually had their own station to fill out but for some reason wasn’t good enough. They also had massive amounts of problems and no one was able to repair them.
I'm about to turn in my 3 year lease in mid December for my 2018 Mirai and I have NEVER been more excited to get rid of a car in my 27 years of driving. The car is great to be honest, but Hydrogen Fuel Anxiety is a real thing and it SUCKS. To anyone considering a Mirai, I caution you on this. Once you find yourself obsessing about when and where to get hydrogen, you will regret having this car. The infrastructure simply IS NOT there yet. I've watched the first 5 minutes and it tells you everything that you need to know.
What are you getting next? The Mirai itself seem fine, shame there isn't a plug or full EV version of it.
@@brushlessmotoring I truly enjoy my Mirai, that’s the frustrating part. It’s a good vehicle, but the amount of stress with trying to get it filled is just to much. My hope is to get a RAV4 Prime for my next car. I want the ability to use electric but have the gas as a back up if needed.
@@heresthething9740 I really recommend a long range Tesla rental and a challenging EV road trip, it might convince you the gas engine isn’t as important as you think. No more check engine light. No more scheduled oil changes. The BMW i3 are aging well, unless they have gasoline REx extender in them - that isn’t aging well - and is causing issues. I reckon if you experience full electric and fast seamless charging you might change your mind - even if you don’t end up going with a Tesla to buy.
What did you end up deciding on?
@@brushlessmotoring I still haven’t gotten a new vehicle as of yet and I can’t say with 100% certainty that I would NOT go back to hydrogen. Here in the San Jose area they have added 4 new hydrogen stations in the past year and the quantity available is far greater than it was when I was driving one.
you should move to Titan one of Jupiter's moon so that you wouldn't need to pay for liquid hydrogen.
How far does it go on a tank, and when will they be available outside of California? Also, how much for the replacement battery?
True Green Hybrid SUV:
15kw plugin battery (>110km range) with efficient regenerative breaking, ultra high capacity >1.5kw solar top on roof & bonnet and small hydrogen 4kg tank (>350km range) for light-weight & cost-effective green hybrid FCEV (>600km range) under $25k or ₹200k..!!
I’m really thinking of getting one. I’m in SoCal. It’s perfect. No waiting in electric charging and no gas. BMW partnered with Toyota because they wanted Toyota to give a strip tease of their hydrogen fuel cell technology.
Hence why we have the Mk 5 Supra that is basically a BMW Z4 underneath.
I never have to wait for an electric outlet at my house FWIW
Definitely lease a hydrogen vehicle, but I would also suggest renting a Tesla for a couple weeks too, try both out, see which fits you best. If you can charge at home, even from a regular 110v in your garage, thats 50 miles of range overnight with no effort from you.
@@brushlessmotoring I charge my EV on Level 1 and it works fine for my needs
BMW's hydrogen 7 cars were stupid, blowing up hydrogen in a combustion engine is the worst of all worlds. BMW is only making a limited number of X5 hydrogen vehicles thanks to government money, just like Mercedes did with the GLC F cell. Mercedes has publicly abandoned hydrogen for passenger cars, and BMW will too as soon as it completes the program. BMW, despite its early lead with the i3 and i8, is woefully behind on BEVs and doesn't have the money to waste on hydrogen.
Just from curiosity, ide be interested in a hydrogen car, but here where I live (Montreal) it does often get way below 0 in winter. Wouldnt the nozzle be stuck on after filling?
I have read the hydrogen is -40 Celsius when it comes out of the nozzle. Once it stops flowing the nozzle will warm up quickly and unstick.
@@andrewgee241 but how would it warm up if the temperature around it is - 20
@@subie2021
If it becomes a problem engineers will sort out a solution.
Same as they have done with EV chargers.
A small internal heater built in to the nozzle that turns on after the fill up is complete would solve this problem. I dont know why they haven't thought about that.
It takes moisture for things to freeze together. There's not a lot of moisture in cold air and thus cold things don't tend to stick to other cold things.
How will this thing start up in January up here in Minnesota and is the heater good enough.
I feel like I could live with this car, if it was more like a plugin hybrid, and that would mean a much larger battery. A friend has the Mitsubishi Outlander that he rides more or less like an EV. The charge at home will get him to work and back with some stops so he never has to fill up on gas, but the gas engine is there just in case. If I could get just a 20km on battery and charge it at home, this would more or less just be an EV for me with some added capabilities. I know for Americans this would not be enough since they tend to have longer commutes.
@ofnotandi " but the gas engine is there just in case..."
If your friend wasn't lugging the dead weight of a mostly non functioning gas engine to and from his workplace, his batteries would take him further.
Additionally, without it, he wouldn't have to pay servicing costs of the combustion engine & he wouldn't be polluting the air we all breathe with poisonous gasses & the climate with CO² when he does use that dinosaur engine "just in case".
I have been driving a Tesla Model Y for over a year. No way would go back to needing to stop at a fueling station. I charge in my garage. The car seems more complex, the fueling is more complex, it just seems unnecessarily complex and expensive.
Tests and studies have shown it costs more to own your Tesla than a gas powered eco car. And let's be honest there is always that fear of running out of charge making long distance driving a chore. The infrastructure isn't built for full ev vehicles.
@@beexiong2995 yeah, those are the studies funded by ICE manufacturers and oil companies. They are complete BS. I have had zero maintenance costs over the last year and a 300 mile "tank" of electrons costs me about $5. You should really approach those studies with a critical eye. I'll never do an oil change, never replace the brakes, no transmission flush or repairs, no emissions testing, no scheduled coolant service, no plugs, no MAF cleaning, I could go on but you get the idea. Maybe in another year I will need to replace the wiper blades, then maybe the tires. State auto registration for my car in my state was about $50 for 5 years, an ice car of the same value would have been thousands over 5 years. The state gives me plates that allow me to us the HOV lane while driving by myself. I never go to gas station, ”refueling” happens at night on off peak hours while I sleep. This video talks about a "study" that claims electric vehicals are more expensive than ice to fuel.
th-cam.com/video/geyXV9Ns1a8/w-d-xo.html
It an example of the spin used to slander electrical, similar technics are use to try to prove that cost of ownership or environmental impact cases. All BS. My cost of maintenance is zero in the first 15 months.
The big lie about hydrogen is that it is the most abundant element. True it is, but that doesn't matter at all. Most hydrogen is chemically bonded to other elements, and it takes energy to break those bonds and isolate the hydrogen. Then it take more energy to store and distribute it. End to end hydrogen is at best about as efficient as ice and likely worse that ice depending on production, storage and distribution. In short its only advantage is refueling time which this video showed to not be an advantage at all.
@@beexiong2995 Man you are so wrong. This is the same crap people were spewing in 2016 about BEVs. I have solar on my roof and pay NOTHING for fuel and pay only a grid connection fee for my electricity bill. I haven’t paid for an oil change since the fall of 2018 (the last time I owned an ICE car) nor have I had to have tuneups or other maintenance. I’m saving all kinds of money each year I drive it, and my solar has a 25 year performance warranty. I’ll be dead before I have to pay to replace it. Free fuel for life, man! What do you think fuel prices are gonna be for a hydrogen car in 2035? For me it will still be free! And my new BEV will be cheaper too (as a function of relative buying power) because batteries are going down, not up, in price. People like you have it wrong because you haven’t experienced the freedom of fueling at home, with your own homemade fuel.
@@beexiong2995 there is electricity everywhere, you could fill up at any house or home. In fact wars can cause a world shortage of petrol. EV's can be energy independent from corporations and dictators that control oil.
@@beexiong2995bro your asshole must be pretty loose after pulling those “tests and studies” out
I like my tesla more than i initially thought. Realistically its easier than filling up. I wake up to full charge and have plenty of range. With my discounted rate of 2 cents/kw cost me about 7-9$ a month. Given I know the battery wont last too long I will get rid of it once the 10 year/120k warranty goes, but in that time will only need tires and windshield washer fluid.
props to you for trying this!
I’m leasing a KIA Niro EV and I’m over the wait time it takes to recharge. It seems to be getting longer and longer especially in the cold. I hope we start making more hydrogen cars and infrastructure very soon.
Super cool vid. As an EV and Plugin Hybrid ev owner in the Midwest, the things I am most curious about are:
1. What is the fill up process like when it is below 0 (Fahrenheit)?
2. Does the range decrease when it's that cold? We have noticed a pretty decent hit to our range in our Mach-E. It is still plenty doable but we feel it when we drive from one side of Wisconsin to the other. (230 ish miles).
If stations are pretty abundant and the first 2 items I asked about aren't too crazy, I could see this doing decently well especially in the commercial trucking sectors.
Surprised at the cost of filling up though, makes me also wonder about total cost of ownership over time of a hydrogen car vs a gas, vs an electric.
range decrease in winter is better with H2!
1. there are a couple of factors to consider. Nozzle freezing may become an issue if ice forms inside the nozzle and block the locking system (harder to melt). Dispensing itself should be easier since H2 is supposed to be dispensed at -40C. It is rather that warm temperature (> 100F) is challenging (chiller faces challenge in cooling the gas). 2. I drove my 2021 Mirai below freezing temperature (something like 25F) and was able to achieve 400 mile driving range (extrapolation from 330 mile driving + H2 consumption). Range decrease by cabin heater use seems to be about 8%, which is about same rate by using cooler in summer. Note: fuel cell efficiency increases in summer (warm temperature) so driving range in summer is longer, however, it seems Mirai's EPA range is closer to the winter value. At last, cost of hydrogen at this moment is rather limited by the size of market, which is tiny. Expectation is that as the market size grows, the cost would come down. Let's see how it goes.
@@TFLcar The range in my Mirai (1st gen) is actually slightly over the rated range--312 miles. No decrease in winter.
No state other than California has any plans to subsidize the construction of public hydrogen stations, and Toyota and gas companies won't invest the money in such unpopular expensive infrastructure.
@@skierpage Do you represent Toyota? I don't think it is a good idea to pretend what Toyota is planning to do without getting any credible information from the company.
Oil company and legacy auto pipe dream to keep control. Electricity is everywhere so easy to build charging. Hydrogen is nowhere so will be a lot more expensive to build out infrastructure. As battery tech improves and charging stations multiply, range will be a non-issue except maybe for trucks that tow long distance at highway speeds.
In Germany they're testing out electric trucks that charge on highways like busses do in cities. I think that could be a big step in making electric trucks a thing
10,000 psi bombs driving around and at filling stations doesn't seem like a very good idea.
Thanks for the video how would it work in Canada with the cold weather
You filled up in 3 minutes! That's great. Remember, you are working in an electric controlled world. Hopefully, Hydrogen will catch up because dealing with a small battery replacement is FAR better than a giant $15k Tesla battery.
Very fascinating, thanks for this video! Also, did I read that correctly that it would cost about $89 to fill the Mirai car to full??
😳 is very expensive
Then only get 289 miles? Think that's about 16mpg. Not so great.
There no way this will be viable unless they get the cost down on the hydrogen.
Do a -36 winter test
Definitely.
You'd think if there's such a disconnection problem there would be a resistive heater in the nozzle to speed disconnection along...y'know, melt the frost.
If there is only 1 pump for 5 cars to fill up with petrol or diesel, then it would be nearly about the same time as the hydrogen. Maybe they should have a built in heater around the plug area to keep it from freezing.