The betrayal of the Thunder Warriors was pretty ugly, but the primary virtue of a modern soldier is compliance-- so if the Thunder Warriors were unreliable even on Terra in easy reach of the early Imperium, imagine how quickly things could have gone off the rails when big crusade fleets were in a separate spiral arm of the galaxy. Great video; thank you again!
Thanks for commenting mate! I totally agree with you, even though they seemed resistant to the powers of chaos, their unreliability, especially over such vast expanses of space as you say, would have likely been disastrous!
That's definitely a possibility mate though at the same time their wilful ignoring of orders and wholesale slaughters would have been vastly more terrifying on a galactic scale.
Perhaps The Emperor didn't just destroy Angron like he should have bc it reminded him of his betrayal of the Thunder Warriors. Both were to the point of being broken tools than couldn't be depended on to as needed and required.
Angron was a tool at the emperors disposal, he was working under a deadline and needed all the weapons at his disposal to unite humanity. The emperor had one goal to unite humanity and remove religion from mankind to weaken chaos enough for him to even attempt fighting them and or remove them from the board. Like the thunder warriors his primarchs and marines were just tools to be used and disposed of when the job was done. I dont think the emperor had remorse, when thinking about the bigger picture. In his eyes he did what needed to be done.
@@cesarespinozaspain I can agree with the Him using the tools at disposal, as a broken sword better than no sword. But I do think he had a remorseful side but it was tossed aside to battle Horus. He knew He couldn't trust His whole self with that shard bc it had already stayed his hand from executing Angron all those years before. Perhaps that stay was bc he saw a battlefield of betrayed loyal servants, not even sons in the back of his mind?
Even a rabid dog has a use, and if the Emperor was working on the belief that the primarchs and the astartes were nothing but tools to bring his vision to humanity to fruition who would after the work was completed and the web way finished then they all (I believe) would be wiped out. So why destroy Angron if he could be used to do that?
The Thunder Warriors showing they could withstand and repel the psychic energies of the warp rattled the Emperor. That and the fact they fought back with even more tenacity. The backlash in the future plans would have been thrown out the window for the Emperor. Though, as mentioned, they would have been perfect for future battle scenarios with the Orks, Tyranids and such. To bad 'cause they had already shown and proved their undying loyalty. What a waste.
Thunder Warriors were always meant to be disposable. The Big E purposefully focused on Speed, Strength, and Aggression. With little regard for Lifespan.
He deliberately put sicknesses into the TW-s as timebambs. In case some of them lives too long or get's too advanced due to the enhancements. After a time, or just randomly they would activate.
@@Kareszkomaturns out in the outcast dead book you find it out he purposely made them genetically defective, so that they would get cancer, fucked up diseases, and die. Luckily arik tanaris figured it out in his genetic Lab he had built, and he was able to steal the perfected gene seed in glands from a dead Astartes and Tanaris and Gota escaped and were able to fix themselves
To be honest, if Thunder Warriors would be brought back to the current setting, it could give different results from the Unification Wars, because the most important thing in Thunder Warriors is that they keep their characters. Imagine Thunder Warrior from a Krieg regiment or special program to select people that would be suited for genetic modification. Possibilities for storytelling, and the end result of those combinations would be endless.
Ya. A bit safer, longer lasting procedure with some medical cybernetics and than some Cadian, Catachan, Baal or some other TW. Wonder what would be the best source for an imperial guard tw?
Being a Thunder Warrior is not something anyone in 40k would want. First of all, they have improved the process. Kor Phaeron and other "Half Astartes" do not die of cancer in 20 years as a result of their enhancements. Thunder Warriors are superior to Astartes while alive, and this sets them apart from Goliaths and Ogryn's who cannot compete with an Astartes speed even if they have the muscle, but a Primaris would beat one without difficulty and this renders them effectively obsolete in all regards. Finally, you go insane. It's just a bad deal.
@@theprelate4219 Not sure about the Primaris.. But.. they weirdly share a lot with the TW-s. Like the same height, and higher muscle density.. like the TW-s had. Like the Primaris is a combo of both. Hmm.. Maybe the Big-E had the TW-s killed off, because he wanted to keep them as a secret, so he can use them in 40k?
@@Kareszkoma If Caul wanted Thunder Warriors he would have just made Thunder Warriors. The key difference between an Astartes and a Thunder Warrior is that an Astartes is no longer a human. It does not think or function as a human. An Astartes is a being created using a human as a component. A Thunder Warrior is a soldier given extensive biological enhancements. At the end of the day the tech to make Thunder Warriors is one of the few methods in 40k that can truly be called obsolete. There are simply better options.
@@theprelate4219 Huh, not at all. You can make an army of TW-s in a year, and Astarte is not just the enhancement. Neither do they have incompatible enhancements. Think about it. One thing that makes an Astarte very OP is their education. Military trainings, military education, strategies, tactics, warnings, experience, so on given to the Astarte, and for 40k ones, general education and literature to make them more human. 40k Space Marines are human. 30k SM-s were dehumanized. But, this training, can simply be applied to TW-s too. If their upgrades are done with modern Imperial tech and healthcare, most of the flaws removed and purposeful ones not implanted, they actually live super long too, and can be highly educated. Of course, this doesn't solve all their problems. The technology does have flaws. However, TW-s were taller, stronger, and faster than the Astarte. Back to the point, the Primaris. These upgrades, are not incompatible with each other. They are different things. Why is the Primaris taller, stronger, and faster than a normal Astarte? The same way as those proto TW Astarte hybrids were? A bit suspicious for me. The Primaris is not a bit more durable. They are very much more durable. An Alpha Legion strike team needed 5 Space Marines to take down a single primaris from an Ambush. Aside that the technology used for making TW-s can be seriously improved upon, and can be combined with cybernetics too. Same way the Astarte uses cybernetics. The Astarte is a bit better, because their brain are much faster. But, that doesn't always mean more intelligent, just sometimes stupid faster. And the dehumanization done in 30k was also very bad. Astarte acting like children, and also running after their Primarch, who might've turned traitor.
I’m just getting into WH and fell in love with the Thunder Warriors. Wish there was some of them still around. Even if it was like ODST drop in and beserk on the enemy or something
They did have an unfortunate habit of going berko and slaughtering everyone in the general area. However bet the Emps wished he had kept a few thousand of these lads in stasis vaults as an emergency contingent. Bet the World Eaters would have been slapped silly by real life Thunder Warriors.
@@chubbyninja89 imagine if he had a whole battalion on ice and unleashed them on Horus and his cronies, Sag himself would most likely be still alive and the emperor would not be stuck on his golden throne.
@@mitchjames9350 I don't know if they were that much stronger than the space marines, like to take on whole legions of them and all. But I do think that the Thunder Warriors deserved a proper last battle or something instead of being culled.
@@chubbyninja89they weren’t that much physically stronger than astartes. Hell some of the loyalist space wolves in HH recall being alive during that time and no one listened to them. The “half heard” of the space wolves is a good example of this.
Im glad for any new content about the thunder warriors, they are so interesting! Btw do you guys think we will ever get more lore about how Big E made the primarchs?
He mastered the gene aspects of it with plenty trial and errors with Thunder Warriors as well as a preprimarch project or 2, brought on another expert or 2 but not completely for their knowledge but more to free up time restraints upon him. So he could engineer, especially slicing some of his own DNA into the pot, but he could engineer men, totally superior to baseline humans in all ways but he needed more to give them their godlike qualities, so he made some kind of bargain with the Chaos Gods, I'm not sure if the bargain included what he needed or making the bargain put him in to the position to take what he needed and that's what started their total animosity towards him but either way, greater demons, atleast independent ones are just lesser Chaos Gods, theirs infinite numbers of them in the warp, he acquired the 'souls' of some banger lesser gods, combined with his DNA and genetic superior men/sons. That's basically the story of the Primarchs, atleast from my understanding, which is why Corvin spending time in the warp discovered some talents that were previously unknown. Will be interesting seeing of any of the other loyal Primarchs discover their latent lesser warp gods power's. Perhaps it's a way for dead Primarchs to return because unless using a special weapon/power demons when killed are immediately respawned in the warp and aren't truly dead, so u never know
It would certainly be interesting to learn more about the bargain made between the emperor and the chaos gods as it may reveal more of what you're chasing.
Rumors have it that the minotaurs chapter is indeed a thunder warriors legion and Maloch is Tyranis from the unification wars. A story goes he and another thunder warrior found out the geneseed of space marines cured the thunderwarriors degredation and hence why they are so well adapted at slaughtering space marines and taking everything they have including their geneseed. It would also explain why a custodies who sized up Maloch doubted if he could win in a fight against the chaptermaster of the minotaurs. Lending more credit to their origin being that of the thunder warriors and Tyranis, the primarch of the thunderwarriors.
That theory stands on very strong legs and it would also be a great fanservice. Thunder Warriors or Warrior who joined the underworld were experimenting with new Imperial Tech and medicine to lengthen their life and they did stole Space Marine Geneseed on occasion. There were also experiments with upgrading Space Marines to TW, and TW to Space Marine. Thou, that I don't remember that well. Another good point is, that the TW were one of the only ones who were an actual threat to the Custode. They were very rapid in their massive armors. Even for a Custode. Of course a Custode can 1v1 a TW, but 2v1 gets very hard, while 3v1 is unlikely to be won. The last one is that TW-s were human. Human brilliance, wit, dirt, thoughts. They improved as beings as they fought on the battlefield. They learned new tactics, new technics, fighting styles and learned more about their opponents. An experienced, upgraded TW, with a very high quality Wargear would be something for sure.
They were cool, the emperor was a turbo a-hole for chucking them aside for the new and shiny space marines. Good thing there's still some preserved somewhere in Trazyn's collection
I would have used them in the crusades. Imagine using them in the rangdan genocide. We know the emperor had cryogenic technology. I think they would have been a great weapon against the xenos scum.
I could be wrong, but I think I read a short story of a group of space marines that ran into a thunder warrior and they had a really fucking hard time bringing him down
I love the Thunder Warriors. Human veterans, elevated to super human levels. The Space Marines advantages lay in their subtle durability. Long life spans, extra organs and implants, healing factor, they were better long term fighters, made for void combat as well as hundreds of years of war. Two different types of fighters. Definitely a place for Thunder Warriors though, they should have just been placed in stasis until needed.
The sad thing is, that the Emperor could've retired the Thunder Warriors. The TW-s were fiercely loyal and very human. They were also waiting for the end of the Unification Wars. They had lots of sicknesses and were exhausted in many ways. They could've gotten medical help and "downgrades" at least. I think the Emperor didn't want their memory around because of the Heresy. He knew it was going to come and if TW-s would be still around, than the enemy could re-engineer and produce them. Which would make the war even more catastrophical.
@maltheri9833 Well, he kind of needed them. That's the simpliest term. At the end of the unification wars, they were somewhat technologically advanced, but still couldn't mass produce power armors, or other things. The navy, Titans, another problem. While Techno-Barbarians were pretty brutal and were out of the way, they still needed op gene-warriors. It's in a way simple, strong, and effective. Concentrated power. Which is, was, a huge risk.
@@thomasross3403 Yaaahh... That is.. at best on paper. Yah. Stable? In what sense? They were brainwashed and mindwipped. Their humanity stripped of them. Extreme intelligent, but barely any social interaction or outer world experience. One of the reason why 40k SM and Thunder Warriors were so loyal, because they were man, who had seen things. The Emperor gave them a great chance at making the world better, and they took on the mantle, opportunity, and were grateful that they can actually make a difference. Despite their errors, flaws, genetic things, or so on. They understood the value of it. This was stripped from 30k Space Marines. And when they realized what was taken of them? 40k Space Marines know what they get into. 30k Space Marines, don't remember. They only know they are slaves, can't have children, can't have the opportunity to enjoy life for no reasons. Like the Space Wolfs can enjoy life, why can't other legions? Why was it structured like that? Later on, sure they tried to change these things. But when you put it on paper, it becomes terribly obvious that they would've been gotten rid of, and they were a rapid solution a means to the end. And what Primarch would've been extremely loyal? That loyalty was forced on Space Marines, a lot who have regretted it. A lot who still have, addiction like, chemical like experience from following a Primarch. With some Primarch, like Guiliman it is different, as he does things different. Most Primarchs were not loyal, even from the loyalist. They had plenty of sentience and were extremely smart to a point. For example, Jaghatai was skeptical what will this method lead to. He choose the Emperor and the Imperium, because he hadn't much choice, and the flawed was still obviously better than standing up against all the ill alone. While Sanguinius straight up asked the Big-E in the eye, what's gonna happen if he refuses, right straight on says no? Which the Big-E dodged. Most accepted this union with conditions. For example, neither Dorn nor Guilliman would've had to accept the Imperium, as both had Empires, and Guilliman had a very large army already, 500 advanced human worlds, capable of resisting the legions or forming counter against them. So think about it. Only on paper. At best on paper. This is a very flawed logic. There are loyalist Space Marines from Traitor legion. Around 30% of traitor legions were saying no thanks to their Primarch. This is why there are theories on this, like why was this done like that? Because simply, maybe the Big-E just needed the Space Marines, but didn't want them long term. By the end of the Great Crusade, they already had better armors than Power Armor, smaller, faster, slicker, more agile, but just as strong. While the newest weaponry, could pierce Power Armor, like it was nothing. And that wasn't even new. Techno Barbarians had weaponry, that could pierce Custode armor like it was paper. So maybe, it was just a patchwork solution, to rapidly reconquer, before the enemies could react. It seems like the Emperor knew about both the Primarchs, and the Space Marines rebellion. Generally, Thunder Warriors were more loyal, but more humanly rebelling. Like not rebelling in a Space Marine way. Instead making a clash, and please do a democracy, or some better form of monarchy. Reform please, we have won. The planes the Thunder Warriors had for change and for the Emperor, were entirely different, than what the Space Marine rebels did during the Horus Heresy. For one, Thunder Warriors were combatant vs combatant. Space Marines were not. Because, they hadn't had that humanity, or outside experience. Just destroy everything.
The Astarte's had better armor, weapons, and superior tactics. Thunderwarriors were much more of a bastion of strength per solider, much stronger, faster, but ultimately doomed from the start given the amount of individuality each soldier was able to retain, which could have undermined the authority of the fledgling Imperium of Man, while Astartes were psycho-indoctrinated for loyalty to the Emperor. The biological creations of space marine organs were a direct replacement of the heavy invasive implants the Thunderwarriors had to undergo for their transformation. Each had pro's and con's but overall, the Thunderwarriors were a fire and forget weapon during the unification wars, and weren't expected to be useful afterwards.
Free will allows persons to resist chaos in the manner best suited to their own body and mind. While astartes are very similar in many ways they are stuill unique beings and being forced to be a near replica of the last leaves them more vulnerable to chaos.
Even though thunder warriors are noticeably more dangerous than space marines; the Unification took much longer than the Great Crusade It would be a pretty apocoliptic setting
I don't think that's entirely true. I don't think he's the greatest by any means, but we should always try to remember that he has the responsibility to *ALL* of humanity, so it's not entirely fair to just assume he simply doesn't do these kinds of things without reason. And this is coming from someone who hates what he did to Angron. Though I think a great part of that is down to the shitty writing. But I think that he almost had no choice but to put down the Thunder Warriors, because he didn't have the logistics to just gather them all up and hurl them at the next enemy and all that, as much as he may have wanted to give such loyal warriors.
@@BI-11y_TheStormTrooper What? All I'm saying is that Big E could only do so much in those early days, even if he wanted to. I just think that he *HAS* to always view things from a big picture perspective.
@@chubbyninja89 Make of it what you will the emperor only seen his genecrafts as tools and nothing more. He told them what they wanted to hear both his creations and his subjects . Anathema is he and his vision is boundless .
@@BI-11y_TheStormTrooper Well, you kind of prove my point with that statement. The Emperor does care about humanity as a whole. So much so that he can't give too much care to any one group, let alone individuals. Though I think some of that is pretty stupid writing as well.
Thunder Warrior like enhanced humans weren't rare on Old Terra. And the TW-s weren't even the most advanced or best geared. They were however an army with a vision and actual goals. They also had pretty good numbers.
Thunder Warriors would've been great for dealing with Xenos and off world threats where self-control and discipline was less needed. Perhaps in lieu of a full-on Exterminatus.
I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. The Thunderwarriors would have defeated Horus. I also believe the Emperor instigated the Revolt of the Men of Iron. I also think he tried to gain power after this and failed. Enter Malcador.
Think about this The Emperor was waging the Unification wars at the same time he was crafting his weapons and soldiers that was Valdors Explaintion for why it was so difficult. The unity War was more bloody then the Seige of Terra.
That's right mate, his weapons were ever evolving to combat the various threats his forces faced during the unification. Even the Custodes to begin with were only armed and armoured as well as the Thunder Warriors until the latter stages of the unification. There's so much to the age of strife and unification, it'd be a great in depth read if Black Library ever went there.
It makes no sense to me that the Thunder Warriors were killed and replaced by the more stable and sophisticated Space Marines, with the Great Crusade being a great killing spree of both humans and xenos alike. Seems to me the TWs would fit right in, especially in campaigns against the likes of the rangdan and spiders of Murder.
They were mentally and physically unstable and would randomly die, go bezerk on populace or go catatonic forever. They were short lived in comparison to space marines but were not meant to survive the unification wars.
@@hamanu666 Yes but if you're just going to use the Space Marines much in the same way as the Thunder Warriors, is the change necessary? I would argue the TWs would be more effective in a lot of the battles of the Great crusade. I'm all for well educated, level-headed soldiers who won't butcher everyone they come across. But honestly, when have the Imperium ever cared about individual lives?
I feel like for the crusade space marines were the right choice to win over the heart and minds of the galaxy but in the current setting i feel like the thunder warriors would do well being sicked onto the worse battles the empirium has to face today. I could see them work really well how the grey knights show up only when needed, the thunder warriors get deployed to last stand every hand on deck battles. Somewhere their bloodlust wouldnt matter as much
The Emperor had a tough choice to make regarding the TW. They were ill suited for space faring, were too physically/genetically unreliable, and worst of all, retained their individual personalities, making rebellion and sedition a surely constant worry. In the end, they were a tool that accomplished its goal but had been made obsolete, elimination it was.
@@titanwargaming AAw my bad they're 4th edition when they changed to their currnet look. I wish I had those old terminator looking necrons they were so much cooler looking.
I think the Emperor had the abilities and technologies to improve the flaws in the Thunder Warriors genetics. I think they could have kept the superiority in their strength, size and possibly melee combat and then taken the things that give advantages to the Space Marines and combined them. The Emperor wanted his Primarch sons to be the general daddies to their own armies of sons so could have used Thunder Warriors stock, once fixed and improved. Thats my opinion on this matter lol.
That's certainly a possibility mate, nice one. Arik Taranis, probably the most famous thunder warrior actually installs progenoid glands into himself and his TW Lieutenant so I'm curious to know their fate.
Honestly... I think this is the part of the story, so familiar in a lot of writing, where the "bad guy" (emperor in this case) is made to do something bad that doesn't make any sense just to affirm them as a villain for the sake of the story. Doesn't make any sense really, to exterminate the elite thunder warriors - who were already finite and so posed no threat, to replace them with inferior versions who were more long lived and technically more unstable since 1) half of them fell.to demons, 2) the other half fell to religois superstition (the thunder warriors would never have allowed the imperium to fall to the former or the latter) and 3) all possessed a deep subservience to the whims of their primarch over that of humanity or the emperor... making them very unreliable, as it was even admitted they couldn't be trusted hence the 2nd founding when they broke up the space marine legion's into tiny chapters. But.with all that being said... why not just have legions of custodes? A funny part of really getting to know 30k and 40k is how bottom-teir the space marines really are lol like worker ants or something far below the custodes It would be interesting to consider a 40k universe if the thunder warriors had stayed and the space marines and the other primaexhs never came into being, it would all be very different. Methinks conspiracy to create the astartes specifically for their use to enforce an evil theocracy over the champions of mankind and the secular imperium.
The reason given for the culling is that the thunder warriors were far too prone to savagery and butchery, too excited to kill even those actively fleeing. The emperor needed warriors that could also be honorable, wise and able to lead in a civil manner, as much a builder of cities as a destroyer of them, the thunder warriors weren’t that. As for not making an ungodly amount of custodes, each one is hand crafted from a very young boy, like 5 years old if I recall, and the failure rate is immense and even if it succeeds it takes a long time. Too long, as far as the emperor was concerned
I believe thunder warriors should have been retired from the front lines as mentors and drill masters to astartes, or simply used in the ongoing battle for the sol system. Great men who didn't deserve to be put down like dogs 😢
@titanwargaming I do know they where quite unruly and mutation prone but using them as a sledge hammer or a divergence while the astarties precision striked would have atleast made better use of the now unified terras resources much better
@lukeBryen2 You have made an excellent point there. They were highly undisciplined, but many of them did believe in the cause they where fighting for amd i believe they may not have been a disciplined force but they would have been kept in line enough to reach the point of being deployed. If they are unable to be calm in the transportation phase cryo stasis is always an option. But I do agree getting them into the ship will be its own mission
Regarding the question about the effect of chaos corruption, violence isn't necessarily productive if you're trying to perform a more complex task. Regarding which was superior, it's definitely the Astartes for the sheer volume that could be produced and their lifespan. That's not to say Thunder Warrior "blueprints" couldn't have been made available to planetary defence forces or the Astra Militarum, both of which accept all sorts of augmentations and abhumans.
It doesn't make sense to me. You can't rely on the thunder warriors, but you can rely on the guardsman? The emperor knew he was going out into the galaxy to fight orcs and chaos the thunder warriors were the perfect weapon for that Even if you stop creating them because of their genetic malfunctions, you can still let them die in battle honorably or retire to Terra
During the burning of Monarchia, the Emperor forced the entire Word Bearers legion to kneel against their will, but he had to take down a few Thunder Warriors with an ambush from both Custodes and Astartes. He might be the most powerful psyker, but psykers don't appear to do well even against single Thunder Warriors. I could see him become paranoid if the only thing that kept them from killing him was their very human loyalty.
Thunder warriors got disposed of when they had no further use. Astartes was needed for the difference they have - as you say follow orders "blindly". The other aspect of why he needed the Astartes is cause he knew they would fall to Chaos, unlike Thunder Warriors. And he needed the Horus Heresey and all that would trigger as a result to ascend. Pretty sure that he foresaw all things, more or less, and that all the things he did have been setting up the pieces on the chessboard. Thunder warriors was just the first rank of peasents to be sacrificed, then the Astartes will be next. The Tyranids will reach Terra, and as the corpse on the throne finnally sucumb the Emperorr will be reborn as the new chaos god of Order, and much like the birth of Slanesh devovered the Eldar, so will his birth do for Humanity, but some sectors where humanity is at its peak will survive - (Ultramarines worlds). Then the humans will thrive under the new rule as the purge the remaining Xenos. While the taint of Chaos will be forever contained by the Emperor. So thanks for the sacrifice TW :P
Thanks for your in depth reply mate! Personally I'm not totally convinced that the emperor actually did plan the heresy per se. I go into great detail about this in one of our upcoming videos about the emperor and why his plan failed but I think the heresy, the webway disaster, mankind being caught in a loop of despair for 10k years was all due to the emperor's hubris and the fact he bargained with the devil and expected he could get out clean.
Несмотря на то что Выбраковка была событием поистине колоссальной важности, ни Громовые Воины, ни Адептус Кустодес не были первой армией Императора. Ему довелось примерить на себя личины множества полководцев и правителей, прежде чем он наконец открыто явил себя человечеству.
A question I have is. The structure of legions, their units, their specialization. Was it all made by the Emperor, or he just copied the natural evolution of warfare?
Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics. Logistically, the Thunder Warriors weren't sustainable. They were being assembled by hand in the Emperor's gene labs, a production method that really doesn't scale well. If they'd been sent out into the galaxy, they'd be forever awaiting replacements from Terra, and half of their replacements would die of genetic collapse before they even reached the front line. Astartes, on the other hand, were self-sustaining. Each Astartes produced enough geneseed to create three or four new warriors, each of whom would be more reliable than any Thunder Warrior. Then there's the flexibility of the Astartes. The Thunder Warriors were basically all World Eaters, they didn't have the organisational skills of an Ultramarine, or the stealth of a Raven Guard, etc. The Thunder Warriors were a brute-force solution to a violent problem. They were never a long-term proposition.
It's good that Emperor wiped them out. If they fell to Khorne then it was over for the imperium before it started. With Khorne juice, their lifespan would've been limitless. They could've been 50x better than Worldeaters 😅
I think their wanton acts of violence (being more violent than the mutated things they fought in Scandinavia) would be a liability more than a perk. Remember; the warp is a reflection of real space, and the chaos gods are a reflection of certain aspects of species in real space (Khorne for bloodshed and murder, tzeench for trickery and plots and scheming, etc). So its fully plausible that these guys could have either A) Be the cause of absolute violence and butchery (not currently known in the imperium in such quantities) to be extremely widespread throughout the imperium in the 41st millennium if they had been allowed to live. Giving Khorne much more power- and also even helping Khorne to grow stronger. Or B) Their mere existence (and if they had been allowed to live- their eventually meeting with Orcs) would have caused butchery and carnage to swell Khorne's power up even more. Basically these guys were just too violent to let live is what I'm getting at here. Also did the Thunder Warriors ever have run in with orcs?
Those are interesting theories mate, thanks for commenting! Sadly they never had any run ins with orcs as they were restricted to Terra itself during the Unification Wars but damn that would be a bad ass story to read!
Perhaps one the more human being that all of super soldiers of emperor. Because except the power in mind and heart the are still was like all others normal humans
I think they should of been kept them in statis Like a solar guard and a warning to others on rebellion As a punishment to Those who wanted to rebel within the solar system or as a vanguard in the siege of terra Probably of loved the fight that was the siege 💪
The thunder warriors were bigger, faster stronger and fought like the Custodes, as individuals! the Space Marines fought as a unit... and genetically far more stable. Plus, most Thunder warriors were self aware that their bodies were meant to absorb punishment & at the same time was slowly failing.
Would like to see some Justice given to the Thunderwarriors as Arik Taranis and Ghota both survived past the Horus Heresy, possibly the Minotaur Chapter has some Thunderwarrior in them? They were far more resilient than Astartes and also resistant to the warp, they would have made excellent shock troopers to be used in conjuction with the Astartes, since there was a fairy easy fix for them in the end it was a huge waste to cull them.
I think they should have been maintained as at least one Legion amongst the current Estartes. Their advantages could easily make them still serve a useful purpose among the new Estartes.
Never quite understood why they would just get rid of them all. If they are so tough, destructive and uber violent, use them as a bulwark against chaos. Position them on planets around chaos controlled systems. Use them as area denile seeing as they cant be corrupted. Plus how big of a morale breaker would that be for chaos forces, not being able to corrupt and control such impressive soldiers. Shoulda kept them around as heavy duty cannon fodder pretty much..
There has to be more than a superficial link between the TW Legions and the SM Legions. The 4th of both share similar unit names and warrior names. And since they come from totally different places with different languages it raises an eyebrow. Maybe the essence of the TW Legions were used to make the Primarchs or SM Legions?
Maybe hey, that's a good point. I was going to say maybe they were recruited from the same countries/ kingdoms but that wouldn't make sense as the emperor had limited access to other countries' people during the unification wars. It would be interesting to learn more about the creation of the thunder warriors compared to astartes. we know they don't have progenoid glands per se but i wonder if there's something else genetically they have in common. or maybe it's just names and skill sets?
@@titanwargaming as far as the lore goes, I think it says the scattering of the primarchs pretty much random. But what could the odds be of one being randomly sent to a planet that's culture mirrors the the legion built around his genetics? To me it adds more weight to the theory that nothing is coincidence, and that's a bit boring, I think.
Honestly, I'm hoping for the Imperium to break up in two. One side keeps being "classic 40k". Dogmatic zealots only surviving on faith and corpses. They would bring back shine to First Born Marines, Sororitas and so on... Another side giving us back the Imperium of the Primarchs and the Imperial Truth. Primaris Marines, technological improvement... Guilliman and the Lion. What does this have to do with the Thunder Warriors? Well, I could see them substituting both Ogryn and Kasrkin for Pro-Primarch Imperial Guard Regiments, since both the Schola Progenium (were recluits for the Kasrkin are normally sourced) and Ogryn families tend to be under very tight control of "old powers" like the Ecclesiarchy.
That's pretty cool mate, thanks for commenting. I agree, it's going to be interesting how the various, disparate branches of the imperium cope between the imperial truth and religious zealotry now that the primarchs are returning. That pressure can has to be let off some time.
@@titanwargaming thank you! I'd be honestly amazed if GW had the guts to pull it off, but I really think it could work. Primaris-loving newbies just as much as the gritty old guard.
Big E can be the dirtiest player in the game when he needs to be and you can see how he had a falling out with every other Perpetual save Malcador. I understand that the Thunder Warriors were created for a sole purpose, the unification of Terra, and that they were unstable but it's hard for me not to feel sympathy for them. They did what they were created to do so well that they became a potential liability to Big E's regime and had to be gotten rid of.
Starting to feel like.. what if the Emperor was just a very succesful warlord from Old Earth..? Like, if his background lore is just false, and written so purposefully to be that?
Around 50% of the legions stayed loyal during the heresy, not great, but would the Thunder Warriors have stood up so well? 🤔 Also, the Astartes were Gene-coded to be perfect good boys, the TWs were made big and nasty.
i've always found this "theory" to be dumb. the emperor is smart. as any leader will say, you dont waste resources. why kill the thunder warriors after they've proven themselves, and you know they have a limited lifespan anyway? no leader would do that. when you have troops that are getting to the end of their usefulness you send them on harder and harder missions until no one is left. that way you can still reach your goals of conquest and remove the obstacles in your way. so many other ways to use and remove the thunder warriors instead of sending other troops to kill them. what if these other troops decide they didnt like the job? now you have more to get rid of. sounds more like lazy writing
What do you think is ai generated? I’m proud to say nothing on the channel is ai generated. We do all our own scripts, source art from the talented 40k community and compose our own videos.
Thanks for the feedback mate. Unfortunately recording at night after work and personal duties doesn't do my tone or cadence any favors but I've tried hard in recent videos to work on this. Thanks again.
Wow I gots to say I be browsing a lot of Warhammer TH-cam.vids and this guy's stuff is very well made good job my friend good job I would put the quality of your vids up there with majorkill and weshammer just keep at it up and thank you for your content
The betrayal of the Thunder Warriors was pretty ugly, but the primary virtue of a modern soldier is compliance-- so if the Thunder Warriors were unreliable even on Terra in easy reach of the early Imperium, imagine how quickly things could have gone off the rails when big crusade fleets were in a separate spiral arm of the galaxy.
Great video; thank you again!
They were resistant to the influence of the Warp. So that would have avoided that little f up called the Horus Heresy
Thanks for commenting mate! I totally agree with you, even though they seemed resistant to the powers of chaos, their unreliability, especially over such vast expanses of space as you say, would have likely been disastrous!
That's definitely a possibility mate though at the same time their wilful ignoring of orders and wholesale slaughters would have been vastly more terrifying on a galactic scale.
@@titanwargamingimagine them gets along with Angron or Konrad 😅😅
The thing is they were loyal and wouldn’t have deviated from the emperor
Perhaps The Emperor didn't just destroy Angron like he should have bc it reminded him of his betrayal of the Thunder Warriors. Both were to the point of being broken tools than couldn't be depended on to as needed and required.
Mate I love that, you're always great for an insightful original take on things. Thanks for commenting!
Angron was a tool at the emperors disposal, he was working under a deadline and needed all the weapons at his disposal to unite humanity. The emperor had one goal to unite humanity and remove religion from mankind to weaken chaos enough for him to even attempt fighting them and or remove them from the board. Like the thunder warriors his primarchs and marines were just tools to be used and disposed of when the job was done. I dont think the emperor had remorse, when thinking about the bigger picture. In his eyes he did what needed to be done.
@@cesarespinozaspain I can agree with the Him using the tools at disposal, as a broken sword better than no sword. But I do think he had a remorseful side but it was tossed aside to battle Horus. He knew He couldn't trust His whole self with that shard bc it had already stayed his hand from executing Angron all those years before. Perhaps that stay was bc he saw a battlefield of betrayed loyal servants, not even sons in the back of his mind?
Even a rabid dog has a use, and if the Emperor was working on the belief that the primarchs and the astartes were nothing but tools to bring his vision to humanity to fruition who would after the work was completed and the web way finished then they all (I believe) would be wiped out. So why destroy Angron if he could be used to do that?
@@cesarespinozaspain he had remorse for killing xenos as well.
The Thunder Warriors showing they could withstand and repel the psychic energies of the warp rattled the Emperor. That and the fact they fought back with even more tenacity. The backlash in the future plans would have been thrown out the window for the Emperor. Though, as mentioned, they would have been perfect for future battle scenarios with the Orks, Tyranids and such. To bad 'cause they had already shown and proved their undying loyalty. What a waste.
"The Last Church" is one of my favorite stories from this time period.
Yes! Love the last church.
Space marines work like a wolf pack, Custodes are like lions and Thunder Warriors are like honey badgers.
Ok, that's not only true, but pretty funny.
Thunder Warriors were always meant to be disposable.
The Big E purposefully focused on Speed, Strength, and Aggression. With little regard for Lifespan.
He deliberately put sicknesses into the TW-s as timebambs. In case some of them lives too long or get's too advanced due to the enhancements. After a time, or just randomly they would activate.
I don't think the Big-E was "focusing" on aggression the least, but neither strength nor speed. They were muscle grafting till the max.
@@Kareszkomaturns out in the outcast dead book you find it out he purposely made them genetically defective, so that they would get cancer, fucked up diseases, and die. Luckily arik tanaris figured it out in his genetic Lab he had built, and he was able to steal the perfected gene seed in glands from a dead Astartes and Tanaris and Gota escaped and were able to fix themselves
To be honest, if Thunder Warriors would be brought back to the current setting, it could give different results from the Unification Wars, because the most important thing in Thunder Warriors is that they keep their characters. Imagine Thunder Warrior from a Krieg regiment or special program to select people that would be suited for genetic modification. Possibilities for storytelling, and the end result of those combinations would be endless.
Ya. A bit safer, longer lasting procedure with some medical cybernetics and than some Cadian, Catachan, Baal or some other TW. Wonder what would be the best source for an imperial guard tw?
Being a Thunder Warrior is not something anyone in 40k would want. First of all, they have improved the process. Kor Phaeron and other "Half Astartes" do not die of cancer in 20 years as a result of their enhancements. Thunder Warriors are superior to Astartes while alive, and this sets them apart from Goliaths and Ogryn's who cannot compete with an Astartes speed even if they have the muscle, but a Primaris would beat one without difficulty and this renders them effectively obsolete in all regards. Finally, you go insane. It's just a bad deal.
@@theprelate4219 Not sure about the Primaris.. But.. they weirdly share a lot with the TW-s. Like the same height, and higher muscle density.. like the TW-s had. Like the Primaris is a combo of both.
Hmm.. Maybe the Big-E had the TW-s killed off, because he wanted to keep them as a secret, so he can use them in 40k?
@@Kareszkoma If Caul wanted Thunder Warriors he would have just made Thunder Warriors. The key difference between an Astartes and a Thunder Warrior is that an Astartes is no longer a human. It does not think or function as a human. An Astartes is a being created using a human as a component. A Thunder Warrior is a soldier given extensive biological enhancements. At the end of the day the tech to make Thunder Warriors is one of the few methods in 40k that can truly be called obsolete. There are simply better options.
@@theprelate4219 Huh, not at all. You can make an army of TW-s in a year, and Astarte is not just the enhancement. Neither do they have incompatible enhancements.
Think about it. One thing that makes an Astarte very OP is their education. Military trainings, military education, strategies, tactics, warnings, experience, so on given to the Astarte, and for 40k ones, general education and literature to make them more human. 40k Space Marines are human. 30k SM-s were dehumanized. But, this training, can simply be applied to TW-s too. If their upgrades are done with modern Imperial tech and healthcare, most of the flaws removed and purposeful ones not implanted, they actually live super long too, and can be highly educated. Of course, this doesn't solve all their problems. The technology does have flaws. However, TW-s were taller, stronger, and faster than the Astarte.
Back to the point, the Primaris. These upgrades, are not incompatible with each other. They are different things. Why is the Primaris taller, stronger, and faster than a normal Astarte? The same way as those proto TW Astarte hybrids were? A bit suspicious for me. The Primaris is not a bit more durable. They are very much more durable. An Alpha Legion strike team needed 5 Space Marines to take down a single primaris from an Ambush.
Aside that the technology used for making TW-s can be seriously improved upon, and can be combined with cybernetics too. Same way the Astarte uses cybernetics. The Astarte is a bit better, because their brain are much faster. But, that doesn't always mean more intelligent, just sometimes stupid faster. And the dehumanization done in 30k was also very bad. Astarte acting like children, and also running after their Primarch, who might've turned traitor.
I’m just getting into WH and fell in love with the Thunder Warriors. Wish there was some of them still around. Even if it was like ODST drop in and beserk on the enemy or something
Hell yeah mate, they’re such awesome characters. I live in hope we’ll some day have a novel series on the Terran unification wars.
They did have an unfortunate habit of going berko and slaughtering everyone in the general area. However bet the Emps wished he had kept a few thousand of these lads in stasis vaults as an emergency contingent. Bet the World Eaters would have been slapped silly by real life Thunder Warriors.
The big e should have continued on refining the Thunder warriors and had them for emergencies.
@@mitchjames9350
That would've been a pretty good idea.
@@chubbyninja89 imagine if he had a whole battalion on ice and unleashed them on Horus and his cronies, Sag himself would most likely be still alive and the emperor would not be stuck on his golden throne.
@@mitchjames9350
I don't know if they were that much stronger than the space marines, like to take on whole legions of them and all.
But I do think that the Thunder Warriors deserved a proper last battle or something instead of being culled.
@@chubbyninja89they weren’t that much physically stronger than astartes. Hell some of the loyalist space wolves in HH recall being alive during that time and no one listened to them. The “half heard” of the space wolves is a good example of this.
Im glad for any new content about the thunder warriors, they are so interesting!
Btw do you guys think we will ever get more lore about how Big E made the primarchs?
He mastered the gene aspects of it with plenty trial and errors with Thunder Warriors as well as a preprimarch project or 2, brought on another expert or 2 but not completely for their knowledge but more to free up time restraints upon him. So he could engineer, especially slicing some of his own DNA into the pot, but he could engineer men, totally superior to baseline humans in all ways but he needed more to give them their godlike qualities, so he made some kind of bargain with the Chaos Gods, I'm not sure if the bargain included what he needed or making the bargain put him in to the position to take what he needed and that's what started their total animosity towards him but either way, greater demons, atleast independent ones are just lesser Chaos Gods, theirs infinite numbers of them in the warp, he acquired the 'souls' of some banger lesser gods, combined with his DNA and genetic superior men/sons. That's basically the story of the Primarchs, atleast from my understanding, which is why Corvin spending time in the warp discovered some talents that were previously unknown. Will be interesting seeing of any of the other loyal Primarchs discover their latent lesser warp gods power's. Perhaps it's a way for dead Primarchs to return because unless using a special weapon/power demons when killed are immediately respawned in the warp and aren't truly dead, so u never know
It would certainly be interesting to learn more about the bargain made between the emperor and the chaos gods as it may reveal more of what you're chasing.
Rumors have it that the minotaurs chapter is indeed a thunder warriors legion and Maloch is Tyranis from the unification wars. A story goes he and another thunder warrior found out the geneseed of space marines cured the thunderwarriors degredation and hence why they are so well adapted at slaughtering space marines and taking everything they have including their geneseed. It would also explain why a custodies who sized up Maloch doubted if he could win in a fight against the chaptermaster of the minotaurs. Lending more credit to their origin being that of the thunder warriors and Tyranis, the primarch of the thunderwarriors.
That theory stands on very strong legs and it would also be a great fanservice.
Thunder Warriors or Warrior who joined the underworld were experimenting with new Imperial Tech and medicine to lengthen their life and they did stole Space Marine Geneseed on occasion. There were also experiments with upgrading Space Marines to TW, and TW to Space Marine. Thou, that I don't remember that well.
Another good point is, that the TW were one of the only ones who were an actual threat to the Custode. They were very rapid in their massive armors. Even for a Custode. Of course a Custode can 1v1 a TW, but 2v1 gets very hard, while 3v1 is unlikely to be won.
The last one is that TW-s were human. Human brilliance, wit, dirt, thoughts. They improved as beings as they fought on the battlefield. They learned new tactics, new technics, fighting styles and learned more about their opponents. An experienced, upgraded TW, with a very high quality Wargear would be something for sure.
Imagine a Thunder warrior with a primaris geneseed, they would be a threat to Primarchs.
@@mitchjames9350Maybe not, but a couple more surely.
Love this theory
They were cool, the emperor was a turbo a-hole for chucking them aside for the new and shiny space marines. Good thing there's still some preserved somewhere in Trazyn's collection
They deserved a dignified retirement.
I would have used them in the crusades. Imagine using them in the rangdan genocide.
We know the emperor had cryogenic technology. I think they would have been a great weapon against the xenos scum.
I could be wrong, but I think I read a short story of a group of space marines that ran into a thunder warrior and they had a really fucking hard time bringing him down
The Outcast Dead
There's Baldermort's original short story in his TW video.
I love the Thunder Warriors. Human veterans, elevated to super human levels. The Space Marines advantages lay in their subtle durability. Long life spans, extra organs and implants, healing factor, they were better long term fighters, made for void combat as well as hundreds of years of war. Two different types of fighters. Definitely a place for Thunder Warriors though, they should have just been placed in stasis until needed.
The sad thing is, that the Emperor could've retired the Thunder Warriors.
The TW-s were fiercely loyal and very human. They were also waiting for the end of the Unification Wars. They had lots of sicknesses and were exhausted in many ways. They could've gotten medical help and "downgrades" at least.
I think the Emperor didn't want their memory around because of the Heresy. He knew it was going to come and if TW-s would be still around, than the enemy could re-engineer and produce them. Which would make the war even more catastrophical.
Astartes were more stable and genetically loyal to their primarch, who in tern were SUPPOSED to be extremely loyal to the emperor
@maltheri9833 Well, he kind of needed them. That's the simpliest term. At the end of the unification wars, they were somewhat technologically advanced, but still couldn't mass produce power armors, or other things. The navy, Titans, another problem.
While Techno-Barbarians were pretty brutal and were out of the way, they still needed op gene-warriors. It's in a way simple, strong, and effective. Concentrated power. Which is, was, a huge risk.
@@thomasross3403 Yaaahh... That is.. at best on paper. Yah.
Stable? In what sense? They were brainwashed and mindwipped. Their humanity stripped of them. Extreme intelligent, but barely any social interaction or outer world experience. One of the reason why 40k SM and Thunder Warriors were so loyal, because they were man, who had seen things. The Emperor gave them a great chance at making the world better, and they took on the mantle, opportunity, and were grateful that they can actually make a difference. Despite their errors, flaws, genetic things, or so on. They understood the value of it. This was stripped from 30k Space Marines.
And when they realized what was taken of them? 40k Space Marines know what they get into. 30k Space Marines, don't remember. They only know they are slaves, can't have children, can't have the opportunity to enjoy life for no reasons. Like the Space Wolfs can enjoy life, why can't other legions? Why was it structured like that?
Later on, sure they tried to change these things. But when you put it on paper, it becomes terribly obvious that they would've been gotten rid of, and they were a rapid solution a means to the end.
And what Primarch would've been extremely loyal? That loyalty was forced on Space Marines, a lot who have regretted it. A lot who still have, addiction like, chemical like experience from following a Primarch. With some Primarch, like Guiliman it is different, as he does things different.
Most Primarchs were not loyal, even from the loyalist. They had plenty of sentience and were extremely smart to a point. For example, Jaghatai was skeptical what will this method lead to. He choose the Emperor and the Imperium, because he hadn't much choice, and the flawed was still obviously better than standing up against all the ill alone.
While Sanguinius straight up asked the Big-E in the eye, what's gonna happen if he refuses, right straight on says no? Which the Big-E dodged. Most accepted this union with conditions. For example, neither Dorn nor Guilliman would've had to accept the Imperium, as both had Empires, and Guilliman had a very large army already, 500 advanced human worlds, capable of resisting the legions or forming counter against them.
So think about it. Only on paper. At best on paper.
This is a very flawed logic. There are loyalist Space Marines from Traitor legion. Around 30% of traitor legions were saying no thanks to their Primarch.
This is why there are theories on this, like why was this done like that? Because simply, maybe the Big-E just needed the Space Marines, but didn't want them long term. By the end of the Great Crusade, they already had better armors than Power Armor, smaller, faster, slicker, more agile, but just as strong. While the newest weaponry, could pierce Power Armor, like it was nothing. And that wasn't even new. Techno Barbarians had weaponry, that could pierce Custode armor like it was paper. So maybe, it was just a patchwork solution, to rapidly reconquer, before the enemies could react.
It seems like the Emperor knew about both the Primarchs, and the Space Marines rebellion. Generally, Thunder Warriors were more loyal, but more humanly rebelling. Like not rebelling in a Space Marine way. Instead making a clash, and please do a democracy, or some better form of monarchy. Reform please, we have won. The planes the Thunder Warriors had for change and for the Emperor, were entirely different, than what the Space Marine rebels did during the Horus Heresy. For one, Thunder Warriors were combatant vs combatant. Space Marines were not. Because, they hadn't had that humanity, or outside experience. Just destroy everything.
The Astarte's had better armor, weapons, and superior tactics. Thunderwarriors were much more of a bastion of strength per solider, much stronger, faster, but ultimately doomed from the start given the amount of individuality each soldier was able to retain, which could have undermined the authority of the fledgling Imperium of Man, while Astartes were psycho-indoctrinated for loyalty to the Emperor. The biological creations of space marine organs were a direct replacement of the heavy invasive implants the Thunderwarriors had to undergo for their transformation. Each had pro's and con's but overall, the Thunderwarriors were a fire and forget weapon during the unification wars, and weren't expected to be useful afterwards.
Free will allows persons to resist chaos in the manner best suited to their own body and mind. While astartes are very similar in many ways they are stuill unique beings and being forced to be a near replica of the last leaves them more vulnerable to chaos.
Even though thunder warriors are noticeably more dangerous than space marines; the Unification took much longer than the Great Crusade
It would be a pretty apocoliptic setting
It’s why the thunder warriors where created as the battle for terra would be much harder than the galaxy.
That picture of that son of sek was wicked! Chaos!
The Imperium uses eversor assassins and they seem pretty unstable, I think I would rather fight alongside a thunder warrior than an Eversor
Fair perspective mate
The Emperor is the worst dad ever. 😂
I don't think that's entirely true.
I don't think he's the greatest by any means, but we should always try to remember that he has the responsibility to *ALL* of humanity, so it's not entirely fair to just assume he simply doesn't do these kinds of things without reason.
And this is coming from someone who hates what he did to Angron. Though I think a great part of that is down to the shitty writing.
But I think that he almost had no choice but to put down the Thunder Warriors, because he didn't have the logistics to just gather them all up and hurl them at the next enemy and all that, as much as he may have wanted to give such loyal warriors.
@@chubbyninja89 Son , not a son , a tool , my last hope. Win , loose, Apotheosis choose. -corpse emperor of mankind.
@@BI-11y_TheStormTrooper
What?
All I'm saying is that Big E could only do so much in those early days, even if he wanted to.
I just think that he *HAS* to always view things from a big picture perspective.
@@chubbyninja89 Make of it what you will the emperor only seen his genecrafts as tools and nothing more. He told them what they wanted to hear both his creations and his subjects . Anathema is he and his vision is boundless .
@@BI-11y_TheStormTrooper
Well, you kind of prove my point with that statement.
The Emperor does care about humanity as a whole. So much so that he can't give too much care to any one group, let alone individuals. Though I think some of that is pretty stupid writing as well.
Thunder Warrior like enhanced humans weren't rare on Old Terra. And the TW-s weren't even the most advanced or best geared. They were however an army with a vision and actual goals. They also had pretty good numbers.
Thunder Warriors would've been great for dealing with Xenos and off world threats where self-control and discipline was less needed. Perhaps in lieu of a full-on Exterminatus.
Imagine if the Big E had created a battalion of Thunder Warriors on ice for emergencies, the horus heresy would probably have a different outcome.
The Thunder Warriors were improved on. Hence, the Astartes.
Wether destroying them was correct or not, it makes a wonderfully grim dark story.
The atrates are inferior to Thunder warriors
Individually. At the legion level, the astartes are superior.@@mitchjames9350
I think the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. The Thunderwarriors would have defeated Horus. I also believe the Emperor instigated the Revolt of the Men of Iron. I also think he tried to gain power after this and failed. Enter Malcador.
No doubt if the Emperor had a whole army of Thunder Warriors on ice and unleashed them during the Horus heresy it would ended a lot differently.
Think about this The Emperor was waging the Unification wars at the same time he was crafting his weapons and soldiers that was Valdors Explaintion for why it was so difficult. The unity War was more bloody then the Seige of Terra.
That's right mate, his weapons were ever evolving to combat the various threats his forces faced during the unification. Even the Custodes to begin with were only armed and armoured as well as the Thunder Warriors until the latter stages of the unification. There's so much to the age of strife and unification, it'd be a great in depth read if Black Library ever went there.
It makes no sense to me that the Thunder Warriors were killed and replaced by the more stable and sophisticated Space Marines, with the Great Crusade being a great killing spree of both humans and xenos alike.
Seems to me the TWs would fit right in, especially in campaigns against the likes of the rangdan and spiders of Murder.
Haha you're right, they would certainly fit in!
They were mentally and physically unstable and would randomly die, go bezerk on populace or go catatonic forever. They were short lived in comparison to space marines but were not meant to survive the unification wars.
@@hamanu666 Yes but if you're just going to use the Space Marines much in the same way as the Thunder Warriors, is the change necessary?
I would argue the TWs would be more effective in a lot of the battles of the Great crusade.
I'm all for well educated, level-headed soldiers who won't butcher everyone they come across. But honestly, when have the Imperium ever cared about individual lives?
I feel like for the crusade space marines were the right choice to win over the heart and minds of the galaxy but in the current setting i feel like the thunder warriors would do well being sicked onto the worse battles the empirium has to face today. I could see them work really well how the grey knights show up only when needed, the thunder warriors get deployed to last stand every hand on deck battles. Somewhere their bloodlust wouldnt matter as much
Actually, there is testimony of an eyewitness from the culling of the thunderwarriors. (Read: The Outcast Dead)
The Emperor had a tough choice to make regarding the TW. They were ill suited for space faring, were too physically/genetically unreliable, and worst of all, retained their individual personalities, making rebellion and sedition a surely constant worry. In the end, they were a tool that accomplished its goal but had been made obsolete, elimination it was.
Great content! I haven't seen the thunder warriors discussed in such detail before
I'm happy to say I still have most of my first army safe in a display case
Haha good on ya mate
@@titanwargaming They're Necrons from 3rd edition, if anyone was gonna survive this long...
Mate those were some of the coolest looking old school models.
@@titanwargaming AAw my bad they're 4th edition when they changed to their currnet look. I wish I had those old terminator looking necrons they were so much cooler looking.
Totally agree mate! They were beasts of models.
I think the Emperor had the abilities and technologies to improve the flaws in the Thunder Warriors genetics. I think they could have kept the superiority in their strength, size and possibly melee combat and then taken the things that give advantages to the Space Marines and combined them. The Emperor wanted his Primarch sons to be the general daddies to their own armies of sons so could have used Thunder Warriors stock, once fixed and improved.
Thats my opinion on this matter lol.
That's certainly a possibility mate, nice one. Arik Taranis, probably the most famous thunder warrior actually installs progenoid glands into himself and his TW Lieutenant so I'm curious to know their fate.
Absolutely. That was no accident. He could've provided retirement, education, or anything. Instead, this.
The emperor should have used the thunder warrior template and used his own geneseed for his own personal space marine chapter.
@@Kareszkomahe could of put them on ice and used his own geneseed to create his own chapter of space marines.
@@mitchjames9350 Huh.. That sounds like a very interesting chapter.
In the Constantine valdore book they chose the side of the treacherous high lords and were then were wiped out
That was AFTER the betrayal at mount ararat and ushotan and kandowire blamed Valdor.
Id like to have the stats for the Thunder Warriors.
Honestly... I think this is the part of the story, so familiar in a lot of writing, where the "bad guy" (emperor in this case) is made to do something bad that doesn't make any sense just to affirm them as a villain for the sake of the story.
Doesn't make any sense really, to exterminate the elite thunder warriors - who were already finite and so posed no threat, to replace them with inferior versions who were more long lived and technically more unstable since 1) half of them fell.to demons, 2) the other half fell to religois superstition (the thunder warriors would never have allowed the imperium to fall to the former or the latter) and 3) all possessed a deep subservience to the whims of their primarch over that of humanity or the emperor... making them very unreliable, as it was even admitted they couldn't be trusted hence the 2nd founding when they broke up the space marine legion's into tiny chapters.
But.with all that being said... why not just have legions of custodes? A funny part of really getting to know 30k and 40k is how bottom-teir the space marines really are lol like worker ants or something far below the custodes
It would be interesting to consider a 40k universe if the thunder warriors had stayed and the space marines and the other primaexhs never came into being, it would all be very different. Methinks conspiracy to create the astartes specifically for their use to enforce an evil theocracy over the champions of mankind and the secular imperium.
Now theres a story
The reason given for the culling is that the thunder warriors were far too prone to savagery and butchery, too excited to kill even those actively fleeing. The emperor needed warriors that could also be honorable, wise and able to lead in a civil manner, as much a builder of cities as a destroyer of them, the thunder warriors weren’t that.
As for not making an ungodly amount of custodes, each one is hand crafted from a very young boy, like 5 years old if I recall, and the failure rate is immense and even if it succeeds it takes a long time. Too long, as far as the emperor was concerned
Great video, narrative and artwork, man.
Subscribed!
Thanks so much mate!
I believe thunder warriors should have been retired from the front lines as mentors and drill masters to astartes, or simply used in the ongoing battle for the sol system. Great men who didn't deserve to be put down like dogs 😢
I understand why thwy where purged. But i personly believe they could have been utilized better in the sol reclamation
I definitely agree. they could have even been sent against the gene witches of Luna early on.
@titanwargaming I do know they where quite unruly and mutation prone but using them as a sledge hammer or a divergence while the astarties precision striked would have atleast made better use of the now unified terras resources much better
@@TheLastRaven Definitely mate, great point.
@lukeBryen2 You have made an excellent point there. They were highly undisciplined, but many of them did believe in the cause they where fighting for amd i believe they may not have been a disciplined force but they would have been kept in line enough to reach the point of being deployed. If they are unable to be calm in the transportation phase cryo stasis is always an option. But I do agree getting them into the ship will be its own mission
Regarding the question about the effect of chaos corruption, violence isn't necessarily productive if you're trying to perform a more complex task.
Regarding which was superior, it's definitely the Astartes for the sheer volume that could be produced and their lifespan. That's not to say Thunder Warrior "blueprints" couldn't have been made available to planetary defence forces or the Astra Militarum, both of which accept all sorts of augmentations and abhumans.
Just subbed keep up the amazing work
Thanks so much mate! good on ya.
What if he trapped their souls with him and genociding them was only to propel the next step of them in the warp with him only to return later
It doesn't make sense to me. You can't rely on the thunder warriors, but you can rely on the guardsman? The emperor knew he was going out into the galaxy to fight orcs and chaos the thunder warriors were the perfect weapon for that Even if you stop creating them because of their genetic malfunctions, you can still let them die in battle honorably or retire to Terra
During the burning of Monarchia, the Emperor forced the entire Word Bearers legion to kneel against their will, but he had to take down a few Thunder Warriors with an ambush from both Custodes and Astartes. He might be the most powerful psyker, but psykers don't appear to do well even against single Thunder Warriors. I could see him become paranoid if the only thing that kept them from killing him was their very human loyalty.
Did they use bolters or volkite weapons?
Thunder warriors got disposed of when they had no further use.
Astartes was needed for the difference they have - as you say follow orders "blindly".
The other aspect of why he needed the Astartes is cause he knew they would fall to Chaos, unlike Thunder Warriors.
And he needed the Horus Heresey and all that would trigger as a result to ascend.
Pretty sure that he foresaw all things, more or less, and that all the things he did have been setting up the pieces on the chessboard.
Thunder warriors was just the first rank of peasents to be sacrificed, then the Astartes will be next.
The Tyranids will reach Terra, and as the corpse on the throne finnally sucumb the Emperorr will be reborn as the new chaos god of Order, and much like the birth of Slanesh devovered the Eldar, so will his birth do for Humanity, but some sectors where humanity is at its peak will survive - (Ultramarines worlds).
Then the humans will thrive under the new rule as the purge the remaining Xenos.
While the taint of Chaos will be forever contained by the Emperor.
So thanks for the sacrifice TW :P
Thanks for your in depth reply mate! Personally I'm not totally convinced that the emperor actually did plan the heresy per se. I go into great detail about this in one of our upcoming videos about the emperor and why his plan failed but I think the heresy, the webway disaster, mankind being caught in a loop of despair for 10k years was all due to the emperor's hubris and the fact he bargained with the devil and expected he could get out clean.
Несмотря на то что Выбраковка была событием поистине колоссальной важности, ни Громовые Воины, ни Адептус Кустодес не были первой армией Императора.
Ему довелось примерить на себя личины множества полководцев и правителей, прежде чем он наконец открыто явил себя человечеству.
I think your keyboard is broken.
@@jesserothhammer7378 Nein. Du kannst einfach nicht Russisch lesen.
A weapon must be reliable.
Ha. What if making a Space Marine is not that hard, the Emperor just did that, so during the Heresy the enemy couldn't produce them faster.
thunder warriors, are washout custodian
A question I have is. The structure of legions, their units, their specialization.
Was it all made by the Emperor, or he just copied the natural evolution of warfare?
The Thunder Warriors are based of the armys of ancient romen legions. So the emperor just took what was there and modified it a bit.
Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics. Logistically, the Thunder Warriors weren't sustainable. They were being assembled by hand in the Emperor's gene labs, a production method that really doesn't scale well. If they'd been sent out into the galaxy, they'd be forever awaiting replacements from Terra, and half of their replacements would die of genetic collapse before they even reached the front line. Astartes, on the other hand, were self-sustaining. Each Astartes produced enough geneseed to create three or four new warriors, each of whom would be more reliable than any Thunder Warrior. Then there's the flexibility of the Astartes. The Thunder Warriors were basically all World Eaters, they didn't have the organisational skills of an Ultramarine, or the stealth of a Raven Guard, etc.
The Thunder Warriors were a brute-force solution to a violent problem. They were never a long-term proposition.
It's good that Emperor wiped them out. If they fell to Khorne then it was over for the imperium before it started. With Khorne juice, their lifespan would've been limitless. They could've been 50x better than Worldeaters 😅
Great Video 👍
Thanks mate!
I think their wanton acts of violence (being more violent than the mutated things they fought in Scandinavia) would be a liability more than a perk. Remember; the warp is a reflection of real space, and the chaos gods are a reflection of certain aspects of species in real space (Khorne for bloodshed and murder, tzeench for trickery and plots and scheming, etc). So its fully plausible that these guys could have either A) Be the cause of absolute violence and butchery (not currently known in the imperium in such quantities) to be extremely widespread throughout the imperium in the 41st millennium if they had been allowed to live. Giving Khorne much more power- and also even helping Khorne to grow stronger. Or B) Their mere existence (and if they had been allowed to live- their eventually meeting with Orcs) would have caused butchery and carnage to swell Khorne's power up even more. Basically these guys were just too violent to let live is what I'm getting at here.
Also did the Thunder Warriors ever have run in with orcs?
Those are interesting theories mate, thanks for commenting! Sadly they never had any run ins with orcs as they were restricted to Terra itself during the Unification Wars but damn that would be a bad ass story to read!
Thunder Warriors would make perfect shock troops for a Rogue Trader. Just sayin.
So good 👌
Thanks mate!
They awesome worrier
Perhaps one the more human being that all of super soldiers of emperor. Because except the power in mind and heart the are still was like all others normal humans
I think they should of been kept them in statis
Like a solar guard and a warning to others on rebellion
As a punishment to
Those who wanted to rebel within the solar system or as a vanguard in the siege of terra
Probably of loved the fight that was the siege 💪
The thunder warriors were bigger, faster stronger and fought like the Custodes, as individuals! the Space Marines fought as a unit... and genetically far more stable. Plus, most Thunder warriors were self aware that their bodies were meant to absorb punishment & at the same time was slowly failing.
Would like to see some Justice given to the Thunderwarriors as Arik Taranis and Ghota both survived past the Horus Heresy, possibly the Minotaur Chapter has some Thunderwarrior in them? They were far more resilient than Astartes and also resistant to the warp, they would have made excellent shock troopers to be used in conjuction with the Astartes, since there was a fairy easy fix for them in the end it was a huge waste to cull them.
Well done, ten points...
11:00 the emperor fights Dr. Doom in skandenavia
I agree they should have tried to fix the issue
Sooooooo... the Death Corps of Kreig meets... Flesh Tearers. Nice.
I think they should have been maintained as at least one Legion amongst the current Estartes. Their advantages could easily make them still serve a useful purpose among the new Estartes.
I agree! They would have made excellent shock troops!
Never quite understood why they would just get rid of them all. If they are so tough, destructive and uber violent, use them as a bulwark against chaos. Position them on planets around chaos controlled systems. Use them as area denile seeing as they cant be corrupted. Plus how big of a morale breaker would that be for chaos forces, not being able to corrupt and control such impressive soldiers. Shoulda kept them around as heavy duty cannon fodder pretty much..
There has to be more than a superficial link between the TW Legions and the SM Legions. The 4th of both share similar unit names and warrior names. And since they come from totally different places with different languages it raises an eyebrow. Maybe the essence of the TW Legions were used to make the Primarchs or SM Legions?
Maybe hey, that's a good point. I was going to say maybe they were recruited from the same countries/ kingdoms but that wouldn't make sense as the emperor had limited access to other countries' people during the unification wars. It would be interesting to learn more about the creation of the thunder warriors compared to astartes. we know they don't have progenoid glands per se but i wonder if there's something else genetically they have in common. or maybe it's just names and skill sets?
@@titanwargaming as far as the lore goes, I think it says the scattering of the primarchs pretty much random. But what could the odds be of one being randomly sent to a planet that's culture mirrors the the legion built around his genetics? To me it adds more weight to the theory that nothing is coincidence, and that's a bit boring, I think.
Honestly, I'm hoping for the Imperium to break up in two.
One side keeps being "classic 40k". Dogmatic zealots only surviving on faith and corpses. They would bring back shine to First Born Marines, Sororitas and so on...
Another side giving us back the Imperium of the Primarchs and the Imperial Truth. Primaris Marines, technological improvement... Guilliman and the Lion.
What does this have to do with the Thunder Warriors? Well, I could see them substituting both Ogryn and Kasrkin for Pro-Primarch Imperial Guard Regiments, since both the Schola Progenium (were recluits for the Kasrkin are normally sourced) and Ogryn families tend to be under very tight control of "old powers" like the Ecclesiarchy.
That's pretty cool mate, thanks for commenting. I agree, it's going to be interesting how the various, disparate branches of the imperium cope between the imperial truth and religious zealotry now that the primarchs are returning. That pressure can has to be let off some time.
@@titanwargaming thank you! I'd be honestly amazed if GW had the guts to pull it off, but I really think it could work. Primaris-loving newbies just as much as the gritty old guard.
i hated the Emperor for that!
they were tools like the astartes the only reason the astartes didnt go the same way was the heresy
Upon a Time in America
Big E can be the dirtiest player in the game when he needs to be and you can see how he had a falling out with every other Perpetual save Malcador.
I understand that the Thunder Warriors were created for a sole purpose, the unification of Terra, and that they were unstable but it's hard for me not to feel sympathy for them. They did what they were created to do so well that they became a potential liability to Big E's regime and had to be gotten rid of.
Starting to feel like.. what if the Emperor was just a very succesful warlord from Old Earth..?
Like, if his background lore is just false, and written so purposefully to be that?
They should of kept them use them when u need to kill everything or make better more stable thunder warriors once technology got more advanced
Around 50% of the legions stayed loyal during the heresy, not great, but would the Thunder Warriors have stood up so well? 🤔
Also, the Astartes were Gene-coded to be perfect good boys, the TWs were made big and nasty.
Did the emp'rah look leyft ohr rahyt? Let us know in the comments...
Lol are you ok mate?
Let's go
I don't think any of the Emperors or his subordinates decisions where up for being discussed by any civilian political bodies.
Correct! We actually go into that a bit in this video: th-cam.com/video/5jJvNvwrsfg/w-d-xo.html
Legio cus to des. Ahhhh why are you saying it wrong.
By Lorde mad cannibal tribe insane Best buy techno barbarian overlord insane psycho tyrants chaos possessed better lock lot more
i've always found this "theory" to be dumb. the emperor is smart. as any leader will say, you dont waste resources. why kill the thunder warriors after they've proven themselves, and you know they have a limited lifespan anyway? no leader would do that. when you have troops that are getting to the end of their usefulness you send them on harder and harder missions until no one is left. that way you can still reach your goals of conquest and remove the obstacles in your way. so many other ways to use and remove the thunder warriors instead of sending other troops to kill them. what if these other troops decide they didnt like the job? now you have more to get rid of. sounds more like lazy writing
Ai generated crappo.
What do you think is ai generated? I’m proud to say nothing on the channel is ai generated. We do all our own scripts, source art from the talented 40k community and compose our own videos.
@@titanwargaming I reserve the right. To not believe a word you just said.
@@marcmcintosh5995 lol ok mate you do you.
Cadence and pacing of the dialogue is very monotonous.@@marcmcintosh5995
Thanks for the feedback mate. Unfortunately recording at night after work and personal duties doesn't do my tone or cadence any favors but I've tried hard in recent videos to work on this. Thanks again.
Wow I gots to say I be browsing a lot of Warhammer TH-cam.vids and this guy's stuff is very well made good job my friend good job I would put the quality of your vids up there with majorkill and weshammer just keep at it up and thank you for your content