Baldermort, I have been trying to contact you over Patreon and mail, but maybe my messages have not ben getting through to you? You misspelled my name is the Credits of your Black Legion video, and my name was missing from the list of Patreon supporters in your Blood Angels video. Please tell me, if you have not been able to receive my messages!
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I am so sorry brother Kristian. I have now responded on Patreon. Embarrassingly, I used the wrong template in my rush. I cannot apologize enough, as per my message on patron. Many many apologies. :(
@@Baldermort Same here, didnt see my name in the credits and you havent answered me on patreon (loke marsh) but ive just thought you have been busy :3 great video btw.
morten123456789 many apologies as well. I was intent in doing all patreon responses at a more leisurely pace tomorrow you see. I don’t like to rush. Sorry. The issue has been time these last few weeks. I’ve been trying to complete another project on top of usual scheduling and it’s been a bit mad. Strangeness on top of course. My sincere apologies. I will respond.
I got to say very good narration on the thunder warrior monologue. Really felt the utter sadness of it all. Idc honestly what people say or the rationale they want to take to justify removing the piece that was the thunder warriors from the chess board. They were used and they were betrayed and that to me is tragic in how you were able to vocally relay that. I hope that astartes space marine listened well because that thunder warrior he just slew could very well be his fate when all is said and done.
As it was meant to be. The Emperor never wished anything other but humans to lead humans, though he had to dip his post human hand in the process due to the increase in chaos taint in the warp.
Oh, absolutely. The Man Emperor's dream for Humanity is real and genuine, his intentions the noblest of all the rulers who came before him. But those whose who he sacrificed and discarded for that dream may not see it that way.
@@ReconCrusader And even his son ... the spiritual liege ... left the palace in disgust. ''a god he may be ... but not one worthy of worship''. truly ... the Emperor is a complex thing ... but without fault ... absolutely not.
ExeErdna it wouldn’t be 10k years. This was still during the Great Crusade so it’s probably a few hundred years to a thousand or so. But yea it was old armor that was really primitive compared to “modern” power armor.
@@AMCelestial Well probably ceramite plated fists admittedly, but the Thunderwarriors were just shy of Adeptes Custodes in levels of strength (certain individual specimens may have been more so, considering the hodge podge nature of them as nothing was standardized in their augmentations). And it's probable a Custodes could literally tear the limbs off of an Astartes. It's not far flung at all that he could have simply battered their skulls to useless pulp while shattering their bodies. Everything they did was brutal and vicious, they were war fighters devoid of any of the honour or splendor the Astartes had. None of those kills were likely to have been 'clean' as it were.
@@ExeErdna But technology, especially power armor, was better in Humanity's distant past (Golden Age of Technology) than in 40K, if you discount Cawl's recent inventions. So older doesn't necessarily mean worse.
And so it ends. A corpse sat atop a throne of lies, won by the blood of those he betrayed. An imperium built from the scraps of titans grinding against the walls of entropy. That last 'how could he' really hit me. God tier voice acting.
The problem was Thunder warriors were physicallyand mentally unstable. They had the bad habit of going insane and going on murderous rampages. They had to be culled.
There is a simple but immutable law of biology, that an organism's capabilities are always limited by the chemical energy available to it, no matter how well designed. The Primarchs alone are an exception to this, but they are not fully creatures of this world and are not limited by conventional physics. For all others, this law holds true. Consider then the Space Marine, the gene-forged warrior designed to conquer the stars. They had to be the ultimate full-spectrum warrior, able to endure chemical, biological and radiological threats, if their armour failed they had to be able to endure foreign atmospheres and even breathe liquid if they had to, so manifold and diverse are the theaters they could expect to fight in. If fighting on lightless worlds they had to be able see in pitch darkness, if captured they had to be able to break their bonds and escape with caustic venom, if fighting an enemy whose thoughts and motivations were utterly alien to man, they had to be able to extract and digest its race-memories and instincts to adapt their tactics. So many tools in their arsenal, so many biochemical pathways that have to be supplied with power, and though their metabolisms are tuned to the finest tolerances, each one remains a drain nonetheless. Now, consider the Thunder Warrior. They needed none of it, they were designed for ONE theater of war, Terra itself, mankind's own homeworld, the ideal conditions for the raising of a human being already met as well as any world could. All that power, all that fine-tuned biology could be directed to one purpose - crushing the foe, utterly and brutally, with the efficiency of a caloric equation.
@E.R. That makes no sense though. Why do they not age? The Emps didn't do such modifications as far as I know. TW are not from children, they don't have implanted genes, and are basicly buff guys. They are gene-enhanced. (alchemical augmentation and muscle-grafting techniques) They are not even stable. All that modification would lower their lifespan to decades. This is why he killed them, no? That also doesn't make sense. If they would just die so soon, them being more loyal than an astarte, why not just help them, give them luxury and send them off to war? The current Imp regen tech also couldn't heal them. Right? Being the no.1 reason why they were killed. I feel like there is another "secret"/lie hidden there. Maybe he killed them because they knew of Chaos? Or because they remembered the "old terra" and that didn't fit the image?
MamboJambo I’m not sure if my interpretation is correct as it’s just based on the name, but don’t they get genetic implantation in the form of the gene seed? The results are seen as the Astartes are phenotypically altered to look similar to their Primarch. Additionally, the strong regenerative abilities of Astartes might keep them living longer as a side effect.
Emps: "wow, the Thunder Warriors are so brutal, barbaric, so bloodthirsty and uncontrollable. This would ruin the image of the coming Imperium. Get rid of theM!" Also Emps: "Oh hey Angron, do you want a legion? Conrad Curze! Wow. Here is a whole legion for your sadism, so you can broadcast to entire worlds and systems your unspeakable horrors and crimes. Let the people know of what will happen to them if they are not obedient. This surely will not damage the image of the Imperium."
Actually. Do you think that could be a way to make it so that the entire loyalist space marine line is only primaris, just say that all of the firstborn turned traitor?
@@nuclear1617 It may be like a Thunder Warriors esque ending, but more likely then not. Firstborn will keep petering out of existence until the last one eventually perishes in the line of duty
If Roboute could hear those last words quoted to him after he spoke to the emperor after coming back hed trip out a bit. Hed stay loyal no doubt but hed never see the emperor as a father again i think.
The Band of the Hawk had their parade, everything would be ok, but Griffith was too hard gay for Guts and lost his mind when Big Sword Man said he was leaving
One of the many reasons, imagined or misled or otherwise, Horus chose to defy the Emperor was out of a fear of being discarded after he and his brothers conquered the stars; set aside for human bureaucrats, with his glories ignored under the guise of mundane day-to-day operation after the wars were won. It's with great amusement that I consider just how dangerously close to being correct Horus would never even realize he was, here.
This is what he said to Malcador, when the two brothers memory was erased. When even their statues were removed. This is why Malcador chocked Horus. Because he didn't want the glory and deeds to be forgotten.
It's a heartmoving rendition. I actually put myself in the shoes of the betrayed dying thunder warrior in the first segment...and it's one of the saddest tearful things to imagine
@@josephukpong2287 Was one of Baldermort's Thousand Sons, seen every video, he is possessed of a great gift of transporting the listener! Check out the Night Lords episode...absolutely *MENTAL*, a personal favorite!
You know what's crazy? Even after suffering through such traumatic betrayal, the Thunder Warrior still remained true and did not fall to the ruinous powers. Meanwhile, a mere *vision* of a potential betrayal by the Emperor was enough to shatter half the Primarchs. A vision that many could have predicted was a lie drove such powerful and godly figures to corruption, swayed by jealousy and visions of betrayal; yet the Thunder Warrior remained true despite believing he saw the Emperor himself slaughtering his loyal servants.
Bit late.. But I think. The Thunder Warriors were human. Fully. They lived the bad times, they fought during the bad times, and saw the Emperor's work and the good it bought. They saw the peace finally coming and the end of the hard times. For what they fought so hard.
@@gavinboyer4634that’s a good point and probably would’ve been a way more interesting dynamic. Especially considering there is a story of the war hounds fighting a group of surviving thunder warriors on like a prison station. So maybe Horus encounters these guys at some point and then the seed is initially planted.
"How could he"? This question of betrayal would be asked many times in the near future. Like father, like son. Perhaps it really was a forgone conclusion.
S Blair well said indeed! Like he suffered the curse of the Noldor. Brilliant thought. Mind if I use that observation, brother Blair? :). A no is as good as a yes. :).
@@TherealSBlair As you use the symbol of Chaos and your last name is 'Blair' I assume the 'S' (rather than the expected 'T' stands for Satan?) If so well done spotting 'the TAINT'! (see Also 'Harold Saxon', Dr Who's 'Master' played so brilliantly by John Simm's (2007 to 2009) as UK PM based on the same TAINT! Back when the show was still great and run by the one guy who knew who to get it right and made Nu Who great. Russel Davis before they kicked him out for pissing off said PM TAINTED TONY and PM Cameron and ensured the show went tits up intellectually; slimed with the taint of Disneyfication). Or are you something more on the lines of 'The Exorcist'?? Both work!
Hrmmm. Is Horus betrayal really comparable? Hours wouldn't have betrayed his father if Chaos didn't intervene. Although Hours like his father saw his betrayal as necessary for the future of mankind so that's one thing. I think in this case we overlook what the EMPEROR is, he's the face of humanity and wears different masks also reflected in the primearchs.. Betrayal is apart of the human condition. So.... maybe you guys are correct.
Man, that was heartbreaking. Imagining this once mighty worrior succumbing more to his emotion injuries rather than his physical ones. Is body might have been badly damaged. But he died of a broken heart. I literally cried. Thank you for this experience.
Extraordinarily moving and tragic...that clip could match the emotional sadness from any Hollywood blockbuster. For those who.understand the honor and sacrifice of military life...and the unspeakable pain of betrayal from one to whom you are totally loyal..like army veterans, it's a very touching clip.
@@KriegCommisar all I can think is, if I were that Astartes, I’d wonder if maybe there’s some detail we don’t know. Maybe we’re only getting one side of the story. The Emperor had to have a REASON to do what he did, right? He had to know something we don’t. Right? Because otherwise, yah, it looks like our beloved god king committed cold blooded murder, and that’s not a great look.
@@AnIdiotsLantern Absolutely the same thought. There was no reason to. He just wanted to get rid of the old. Maybe because of future influence or sth. But surviving TW have proven that they can be healed, upgraded, can become stable, and are resistant to Chaos. The reasons are gone. They were people of the old ages, and were probably killed off for that.
As a US war vet, I whole heartedly feel for the thunder warriors. We were used to fight until we were no needed. And now we find out the truth within the “Afghanistan papers”....we were and still are being tossed into a meat grinder for what...to save face??
The young and brave are sent in to die for the rich and powerful. And if you are not killed in battle you are discarded and forgotten about, forced to live with the things no one should have to see. The life of a soldier. There is nothing more human than war. You see the good sides of humanity, the ingenuity, the comaradery, the compassion and you also see the ugly sides of humanity, the destruction, the killing, the callousness. Death is apart of life, the die has been cast the moment you were born, but life is precious, and should be lived to its fullest. No matter what. War is apart of our culture, and may never subside, but do not blame the soldiers, blame the governments, the top of the chain. The rich and powerful. The callous leaders who send thousands to die for their own ego. To save face. If anyone deserves to be spit on, it is them. Not those who suffered because of them.
@ Do not take my words as an insult, on the contrary. I support veterans and their families, and go out of my way to do so. For most people whether you volunteer or not, the scars from your experiences still change you. I've met a lot of guys who came back from Iraq who were severely war torn, and I've also met a few who enjoyed their time over there. Both were forever changed by their experiences, causing divorces, drinking problems, anger issues, etc. My point is/was when I made this comment was to point out these things. Thank you for your service, and I hope you're doing well in life after the war and haven't had to experience any of these unfortunate side-effects of military service.
@Cegesh So you're saying that we should treat our warriors like outsiders? Despite the fact that they are the reason people like you get to go on the internet and have an opinion? There's nothing "North Korean" about giving veterans the respect they deserve. All veterans sacrifice years of their lives to serve something bigger than themselves out of patriotism. Some don't come back the same, and others never come back at all. It's easy for you to sit there and act all high and mighty, but you wouldn't be able to go through what many of them went through. Just be glad your country's not at war and you get to look down on those who serve instead of fighting and dying beside them. People like you are the reason many veterans feel like outsiders.
These boys were always a fascination of mine. Staggeringly loyal, supreme in all physical and mental traits, but I guess the flame that burns twice as bright, lasts half as long.
@@justiceforjoggers2897 they weren't as tactical as the Space Marines and knew nothing of diplomacy. They also had very short lifespans, dying in a few years due to cancer.
John White I honestly think it’s possible that they will do it. Eventually. The potential for new model ranges would be just too much to resist eventually. Many are gagging for a chance to play through the unification wars. I know. I’m right there with them. :).
Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer I’d love to get my hands on some technobarbarians maybe I’d pick Ursh because of all the warp fuckery, which faction would you play do you think?
The emperor likely saw the thunder warriors as a symbol of his failure to bring the other factions of man into the fold without conflict, so he probably hated them the whole time, barely tolerating their savage presence until the moment they weren't absolutely necessary
@@blumiu2426 to not use them would in the end cause even more suffering and destruction as various techno-barbarians some of which were corrupted by or outright worshipping chaos gods would remain in Control of terra for much longer before they could be removed... Damned if u do Damned if u don't.
The Thunder Warriors got the rawest deal in Terran history. Emps literally Order 66'd them. The Emperor protects...until you are no longer useful. I honestly hope Emps never officially recovers because I truly believe he would be the end of his own empire.
I cried throughout the entire audio drama as you took the perspective of the last Thunder Warrior, and the worst part was not the Warrior dying to other loyalists of the Imperium. Or the fact that he had given up running to fight a final battle when he had finally attained a sense of sanity if not a sense of normalcy, which is stretching the vocabulary when taking into account of his kind. It was the sheer betrayed outlook at what he was made to become by his liege lord that he would have followed to hell if he had been ordered to. A man sent to die by the guns of not against his foes, but by the ones who he could have called allies in the Imperium. And it stung more that it all took place at the beginning of his rule, and the future made all the more uncertain if he truly has our best interest in mind...
It's a heartmoving rendition. I actually put myself in the shoes of the betrayed dying thunder warrior in the first segment...and it's one of the saddest tearful things to imagine
Well, I don't think he knew. But chances are, depending on the Primarch, it's realistic to think that a 100 Thunder Warrior would kill one if they charged on him. Of course, probably not Sanguinius. That guy held an entire legion by himself, than broke a demons back, and than went to face off Horus. But sending a 1000 Thunder Warriors to kill off a Primarch seems like a realistic way for an assassination.
"Remember when you sent the Astartes to cull the Thunder Warriors father?" - Horus "Yes my son, why do you ask? - Emperor "Well you won't do that to us one day will you?" **Emperor Working on the Primaris Project** "No son I would never dream of it."
Horus: Oh good. That is a relief. Forgive me Father. Just nerves talking there. So, does this mean were allowed to talk about our two Lost Brothers and acknowledge their heroics publicly? The Emperor:...Oh well look at the time, I've got some Emprah Things to work on with Malcador. Bye son! Horus:...I'm...I'm sure it will be fine.
"I have bestsd over a score of the things created to replace me. I can die at peace with honor." RIP noble Thunder Warrior. More.nobility than the corpse god deserved.
Thank you brother Diomedes. I am sorry I have not responded on the patron yet, but will be getting into that tomorrow and giving you a full and total response. Sorry for my tardiness. I was working on a collab over the weekend and only getting about 4 hours sleep. So I did not trust myself with clarity in messaging. Please do forgive me. :(
@@Baldermort however gracious that is it is completely unnecessary. I really appreciate you. This is a proper response. You're a great man, Elite Battle Brother and fantastic Creator. No apologies necessary. Be well, Brother Baldermort.
Diomedes XXII as always, you are incredibly kind and patient brother. Just remember always, it’s responses like these and people like you that are actually the heart of the guides. We do this together. And I couldn’t do it without you. Full stop. Speak tomorrow brother thank you again :).
"Thunder Warriors aka Legiones Cataegis. 'The Cataegis were caught in a cycle of aggression. Death meant nothing to them. For a time, it seemed that orders meant nothing to them, either - they were elemental in their violence.... The Thunder Warriors demonstrated their greatest weakness. They were like the munitions we used back then[Unification Wars] - powerful, but unstable. Once loosed, they were hard to control....' 'You will recall my concerns about the Cataegis during the Maulland Sen campaign. Those concerns had not gone away during the following century of their many deployments. We had conquered much of the globe by then, with the Thunder Warriors bearing the brunt of the fighting, so do not think we were unmindful of their sacrifice. By then, it was widely believed that what could have been perfected, had been perfected. A Thunder Warrior was a truly fearsome proposition. They were armed and armoured nearly as well as the Legio Custodes. Their numbers had grown rapidly, following improvements in the gene-cultivating methods used here and at the other sites. But it was never enough.They remained unstable. From primarch to neophyte, they would break down suddenly, or lose their minds, or simply stop responding to orders. This was not simply a matter of dry practicality for us - it was a foul thing to witness. A warrior’s blood might suddenly rebel against the arteries that carried it, or the organs might start to devour themselves, or the muscle might explode with breakneck growth. For a proud and fearless creation, that was a poor way to die. Be aware, also, that they were quite conscious of this likely outcome. It did predictable things to their psychology. Knowing that they were limited by time and circumstance, their attitude to risk became even more cavalier. They were hard to govern from the start, but as the Imperium began to reach its secure zenith, they risked becoming an empire within an empire, and one with the old reckless dangers of the past writ large...' - Form the memories of Captain-General Constantin Valdor of the Legio Custodes. The Fourth Legion Cataegis was known as "Iron Lords" They were specialists in siegecraft, through both training and genecraft. And their "Primarch" The primarch was equivalent to the captain-general rank in broad terms, responsible for the discipline and conduct of the entire Legio. He was not physically different to any of his troops, but had distinguished himself in combat and leadership, and was appointed directly by the Emperor. This primarch of the Fourth was Ushotan. He was a superlative warrior, and a fine general. In most respects..." - Constantin Valdor
A great read. I still think it was a pretty cruel thing to do so. Things might've been different if Emps would've made different choices. Fe.: Space Marines recruited from Terra, were the first to be purged by heretics, as they remained loyal. The loyalty should've never been given to just the Primarchs. Iacton Qruze from the Luna Wolfes, pre-Horus, is a great example. Loyalty and greatness in one. Poor guy. However most of the legion was bound to Horus and out of loyalty they followed Horus. Starting the Horus Herecy.
@@Kareszkoma I'm not gonna play, the devils advocate for the Emperor, but the whole situation with Thunder Warriors. Primarchs and even first Astartes was much, much more complicated. Also Ruinous Powers where not f*cking around with Emperor and Primarch Project.
@@josephukpong2287 Yeah all quotes are from the pages of "Valdor" You can find some other pieces of Thunder Warriors lore in "Outcast Dead" I finished reading Valdor like, two/three days ago.
What manner of wars requires the creation of warriors such as these? Answer: Wars like you've never believed. - Raclaw to Brother Brunner (Damnation Crusade) The unification wars must've been so bloody, not even Astartes could stand on equal ground.
True, it was not war of man against man, it was man against tech and bio enhanced barbarians using remnants of the golden age. Astartes would have never sufficed, so something as powerful as the thunder legion was needed
The opening story is magnificent and moving, and also ominous. History could have repeated itself. Perhaps the knowledge of fate of the Thunder Warriors was one of the true causes of the Heresy . . . I must also applaud your narration. You make the Thunder Warrior into a fully rounded and deeply sympathetic character. Your voice, cadence, and tone you remind me of the late great Patrick Tull, who narrated the whole Aubrey-Maturin series
I once heard a great wordsmith say he was no Shakespeare but I often wonder who but someone of Shakespeare could craft such a story. Not just wonderful work Baldermort this is beautiful work. Truly heart wrenching and expertly told.
Clicked so fast the bell didn't even have time to notify me. But for an edited, more serious response; the Thunder Warriors are one of the real tragic stories of the Warhammer Universe, providing a glimpse of the future grim darkness of the 41st millennia even in the first few centuries of the 30st millennia. These brave warriors, forged by the Emperor to unify Terra beneath his own banner, only to then be cast aside after the final battle of the Unification War had been won as the tools they ultimately were; obsolete and replaced by the Space Marines. The words of this dying warrior in this video also provides a rather sombre warning to his replacers, and perhaps a rather distinct justification for the fears of some of the Primarchs that turned against the Emperor during the Horus Heresy. If the Thunder Warriors were so easily thrown aside after they were no longer needed due to Terra being unified under the Emperor's rule, who would be able to say that the Primarchs themselves and their sons wouldn't be cast aside after the galaxy was unified beneath the Emperor's rule? After all, Malcador and by proxy the Emperor himself made it clear that humanity would be ruled by humanity; that the Primarchs, being so beyond the standard human, would never be able to rule over humanity as they didn't understand humanity.
@@drkittyphd6205 well it is confirm that Sanguineous himself feared the Emperor. Probably because he knows that once the flaw of his gene seed got out. That would be all the justification he needed to purge the mutant primarch. We still have no idea what tje Emperor did to the "lost and the dammed" primarchs.
@@drkittyphd6205 No, none of them Primarchs were designed to be disposable, that much is obvious when we look at the likes of Angron and Konrad Curze; in the former case in particular, it's clearly evident - the Emperor would rather have a damaged Primarch leading his legion than a dead one. Leaning in one of Baldermort's previous videos, there's only really three Primarchs with a clear and designed role for what would come after the completion of the Great Crusade, those being Horus, Sanguinius, Dorn and Curze. Horus would conquer the Imperium - his role after, well, that's less certain, Sanguinius was to be the Imperium, Dorn was to build the Imperium and Curze would protect the Imperium and enforce its laws. But the Emperor hasn't been afraid to discard tools he deems them unnecessary; I believe in the Emperor that viewed the Primarchs as his sons personally, that he loved them as only a father could. But the Primarchs themselves didn't know that, they didn't see that; quite a few of them saw and felt the opposite. One of the closest relationships between the Emperor and one of the Primarchs was probably Magnus, due to their shared psyctic gifts and the simple fact they'd spoken for decades before the Emperor actually came to Magnus in person. But the moment he thought Magnus was a traitor, he sent Russ to bring Magnus to Terra to stand justice.
@Dominion IF he didn't plan the Horus Herecy too. If Angron was to be one of the sons to join the rebellion, than it's a win win. I just don't think Horus was to be a traitor. That's were Tzeench comes into plan.
there was a passage in a book (forget which one), where an oldschool astartes and some primaris fought and wounded a chaos space marine. as he was dying, he was telling the astartes about what the emperor did to the thunder warriors and that the primaris standing around you now are going to betray you, exactly as it happened before.
The Emperor can lie to you The Emperor can betray you You are REQUIRED to love him. but he does not love you. He cannot love you. The mind cannot mourn every follicle of hair that falls from its head.
Demographic Dominion I mean look at his children. His kids were literally designed to be useful Perterabo, Dorn and Manus were genius craftsmen and architects Magnus was literally created to be the second most powerful psycher to sit on the golden throne Horus, gilliman and sanguinious were negotiators and buricrats And the lion, angron and Leman were created to be a tactician, sledgehammer and loyal executioner. And 2 were straight up expunged from history
These Thunder Warriors gave him everything literally and in the end the Emperor betrayed them. That has got to be the saddest story I ever heard. I always wondered what happened to them? I thought he just stop making more of them and they died out but the betraying them I never felt this sad for loyal warriors ever. I still have so much to learn in the 40k history.
I could not agree with you more. Such betrayal is unspeakable..very sad. Although. I would like to hear the Emperor's side of the story as well. It might have been a broader tragedy beyond his intention
@@josephukpong2287 I agree with you. I know the Thunder Warriors weren't perfect soldiers, they are stronger then space marines but it is said they were very unstable mentally and physically. I think their life span wasn't longer then a few years due to their genetics being very unstable but still just because they were flawed and had shorter life spans does not give the Emperor the right to betray them.
ItDoesn'tReallyMatter at least perturabo understood that he was a tool, broken by it but at least knew his place, like he knew everything else, whiteout warp visions, mind you. Horus.. horus is inexcusable.He knew the dream. He knew the design and the goal. Mankind Unchallenged! Even if that was the will of the emperor, that the Astartes be purged ( heretical and ludicrous) so what of it? Accept His design gracefully he should had, primarchs are tools to further the agenda of mankind, and by association, the emperor’s agenda.
It's not that simple. Terra had been won. The fleets were being created and the armies for the crusade ramped up. That took nearly a century. Do you really believe the thunder warriors could wait that long without combat. They were given the best death the Emperor could give them. Honourably in combat, their sacrifice remembered and honoured by Humanity forever. Better than being killed as traitors as they inevitably would have rebelled against the Imperium as the only outlet for their combat rage.
@@jovee6155 In total they were probably thousands of space marines in total from all 20 legions already, they were also used against the thunder warriors
@AKUJIRULE I still consider it betrayal in a way, but at the end of the Unification Wars they were so unstable physically and mentally, thus a threat to other imperial forces and infrastructure so they must be wiped out
I've always wondered why, true the astartes was an upgrade, just not make anymore as the SM were introduced. Frack, just give them a hard assault that they couldn't win. That would have been honorable.
The SM were more stable and more tactical. The Thunder Warriors were unstable and that made them careless. The Great Crusade needed diplomats and warriors not just warriors. But your right he should have just let the Thunder Warriors die in an unwinnable battle
I think he was trying to hide something. The Thunder Warriors, under equipped, broke through the Custode lines. They were OP. Imagine legions of these super loyal, super human soldiers. While not the best, a couple of regiments would've helped the crusade for sure, and than they just die. The Emps either had a really deep trust issue(s), or was hidding something.
Thunder warriors are the hammer . Astartes are the scalpel. I Cant remember where but u can find parts of that quote in a book cant remember what one tho .
Thunder warriors are tragic figures. In a book called "Dreams of Unity." Despite it all the betrayal, the exile, the absolute degree of time forced into this state one surviving thunder warrior held onto that moment ontop of Mount Ararat thinking back to the achievements he and his brothers had accomplished and what their duty and dedicated actions had lead to "For Unity..."
I see emperor as a total sociophat. Everything is a tool, a means to an end. Everything not anymore useful was disregarded (2legions of astartes and thunderwarriors). Perfect being to lead mankind but not without a flaw. Sociopaths tend to not notice human emotions since they lack empathy which emperor actually showed in the final battle against horus. Such interesting character.
@@eemelianttonen8641 dude the emperor know the daemon are coming (all are dead anyway one reason he keep pushing the war effort ) you should learn basic tactics and logistics
I know we are never going to get it, but I would *LOVE* for GW to release a Unification Wars game one day. An army of Thunder Warriors would be sick, and the Techno-Barbarian hordes would have some pretty epic armies too. Sadly, at best all we can hope for is possibly a book series detailing the dawn of the Imperium. That story was heart wrenching. Seriously, I almost teared up. _How could he?_
I agree. I have always wanted unification wars series and more info on thunder warriors. Now we know the name of one legion and name of one primarch, but alas, its not much. Although, I think unification wars series of books would sell rather well, so its surprising this still isn't a thing.
I can see why the emperor did what he did. It’s not uncommon for governments and revolutions to keep hold of vital keys to take power and purge them after. Because taking power compared to holding it are different. Cut out the less important people despite there work and loyalty. Then keep and add more relevant people for strength and stability.
History repeats.......always. you see it in modern day fiction all the time.....look at Rambo a story about a man made into a weapon and then discarded after the fight.
I used to feel sorrow for the emperor because he was betrayed by his loyal sons until I read the book " the master of mankind" when he has a conversation with a martian over the unconscious body of Angron. Then I discovered just how callous he really is saying he felt nothing for his sons. They were just another tool.
The Emperor and Malcador’s “original sin” as it were. The first act of the Imperium was one of betrayal. I can see the Emperor taking his place in the slaughter. He would not ask his custodes to do that which he would not do himself. He, he would have tears in his eyes. They were too dangerous, too unstable to leave alive in this new world they helped to create, they had to be put down and if that must be, he would do it himself. These men who gave themselves to him, to the dream of unity, he created them, he would end them, they deserved nothing less. Rest easy my noble sons, on your sacrifice will humanity build its empire.
Spike .Strat13 “too unstable” yet he let angron turn his legion into crazed berzerkers even before falling to chaos.... emps doesn’t seem to care about instability considering the red thirst and the wolfen curse are also things Oh and I almost forgot the thousand suns geneflaw that literally turned them into chaos spawn
The saddest thing about betrayals is it doesn't come from you're enemies the Thunder warriors serve the Emperor and Terra only to be stabbed in back by the very thing they serve and loyal to.
Trigger Warning - Before the Betrayal of the Thunder Warriors, the 'Ruinous Powers' don't appear to have bothered the Emperor, or tried to stunt his plans. After the Betrayal,... Well... The 'Ruinous Powers' went so far as to kidnap the Primarchs from beneath the Emperor's very nose. ... the souls of the Betrayed warriors, echoing in the Warp, screaming in despair for vengeance, anybody..? Something about every action generating an equal, opposite reaction... '...as Thou sow'est, Thus shalt Thou Reap..." ? Imma leave this here... For the record, Dark Angels FTW!
@@AJZulu - * sympathetic voice * ... y'see, the thing about hanging around with Luther - and no doubt, you were one of the dishevelled wretches that assisted in his escape -, is that it nearly always leads to a bad case of *BLAM!* *PlinK, plinK-plinK - Plink....*
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 - Some folk can't handle the thought of the Emperor being anything less than spotless. You know. Ecclesiarchy. Sisters of Battle. Certain Space Marine chapters. The Inquisition. Those sorts of people.
There needs to be some chaos characters that are thunder warriors. Khorne would suit them beautifully. They would be a nice non-demon balance for Primarchs such as Guilliman.
@@chaoswarriorboi3665 Yes, the Emperor designed them to actually repel the influence of the warp and for those who tried to use there powers against the Thunder Warriors it would only cause a backlash and pain.
@@chaoswarriorboi3665 in one story a psyker who saw them said they glowed with power, a golden light of psychic energy. Only Custodes or the Emperor had a glow of power like it. And of the later Astartes only the first batches the Emperor had a hand in creating could say the same. All designed to repel the power of the warp.
Yep! If the Chaos Gods weren't so vile I'd have built a traitor army all the way. Emps is a shitty parent and hypocritical leader. Now, stand still while I add you to my collection. *greedily rubs metallic hands*
@@Fifthmiracle the only person who's actions are justified is Horus, the Emperor is no better than the techno-barbarions and got what he deserved during the Heresy.
Can't believe it's been 3 years since this audio drop. Been about that long since I have dived deep into the lore of Warhammer 40K. Thank you o'Bald one who speaks. Thank U
Damn, my man i was just reading up on the thunder warriors yesterday. And now you are doing a video of them. this truly is a blessed day for the imperium.
Hmmm must be something in the air, as you are the second person to say that and I was looking them up yesterday and said 'yeah, this is important and the gentle listeners need to know about this wee nugget of lore gold'. :) :)
The emperor himself caused the heresy, are we to believe the primearchs did not know of the thunder warriors fate? The emperor should have put them in stasis and preserve them as good as possible to use them as shock assault troops until they died out. Horus Doubt in his father was caused by malcadore and the emperors actions. The thunder warriors fate was a message towards all forces of the imperium. You are tools to be used and discarded when their service is no longer acquired. The emperor loved his sons, but he also used them. I have no doubt in my mind that horus rebellion would have been inevitable. Either due to chaos, or the emperors betrayal of him and his brothers.
Henrik Sparre Don’t forget that the emperor had 2 primarchs and two whole damn leagions completely wiped out and made to be forgotten, so its not the only time Emps got his genocide of his own creations on
Not a Skaven Clansmen He was allowed to stay broken. Allowed him to absolutely ruin his legion Dooooon’t even get me started on the night lords! Seriously how the hell could the emperor in his most immense wisdom allow Conrad fucking Kurs to control any level of power without serious therapy. Because who would allow a sadist cannibal albino batman asshole control what was essentially a massive terror weapon
@@juanpablomontalvo4715 he was created to be this way and as a loyalist was quite efficient killing 1/3 of the population of a planet to Have the whole system surrender may sound brutal but is better to fight one all planets kill how many and cause mass destruction in the Inferstructure thus crusting more to rebuild and that can take time thus unrest and further civil unrest may lead to a rebellion that repeats the circul until there's eather no one alive to Rebell Ore its brutally forced into obedience
If the emperor really cared about Mankind he would've revealed himself during mankind's technological peak. But no, he waited until it fell into ruin. Why?
The Emperor was not perfect, this again was one of his not so proud moments. He should have let them fight and die for him in the Crusade. Not making anymore of them would have made them a tool he could have used and they would have died for him in the battlefield to the man, an end they would have chosen. Having their own forces kill them was dishonorable. No loyal warrior deserves this.
Your narration is simply fantastic. As a fan of VO artists you are truly a force that brings these tales of war to life with great substance and character. I tip my hat to you sir.
How much it would please me if GW would reveal a whole planet/solar system at the edge of the galaxy, isolated from the imperium. Functional, prosperous perhaps in some areas, but undoubtedly human ruled and protected by the Proto-Gods of the Astartes, the Thunder Warriors! The Thunder Warriors of the unification wars, the ones that survived, the ones that adapted, survived, and corrected their genetic flaws. The ones that faced their demons and conquered them! Please GW, make thunder warriors a faction in 40k! I want minis and have a wallet ready!
Yes sirree! I love the old earth, dark age side of things, the techno-barbaric earth and thousands of planet pre-imperium, from feral to elysiumatic. Pre-unification Terra has always intrigued me, any one know of some novels dealing with this theme?
The emperor created the thunder warriors to fight one of the worst wars of all time and he needed to do it in the shortest time possible - to save the species. The emperor knew mankind was finally killing itself. He made a devils bargain, create the thunder warriors monsters and win the war but what do you do with the monster after it. One of the reasons Warhammer is so great.
"The False Emperor betrayed you, Warrior of Thunder..." the demon hissed, sliding closer to the huge killer. * The giant of a man lowered his blade, eyes locked on the demon as it neared, a snarl never leaving his face. The grin on the demon's face widened impossibly, filled with what looked to be hundreds of needle sized fangs. "Betrayed you, killed your brothers, forgot you." The warp spawn continued, inching ever closer. It could almost feel the will of it's opponent slipping. "You should not fight against me, Mighty Warrior, but stand with me and cast down the false Emperor for all his lies!" the demon shivered at the thought, closing it's eyes to savor the feeling. The Thunder Warrior's eyes, once unfocused with thought, sharpened immediately and darted to the creature, now close enough to touch. "The Emperor may have betrayed me, but I will never betray Him." He growled, and before the confused demon could react his massive hand was closed around it's throat. The beast screamed and thrashed, curses it had learned through the eons spilling from it's mouth as it tried to scratch and claw it's attacker. The warrior lifted the demon into the air, and with one mighty thrust sank his sword through it's abdomen. Black blood spilled free and sizzled as it touched the ground. He released the beast's throat and it dropped to it's feet. The warrior kicked out and smashed the bone of a leg, pinning it in place. Grabbing the hilt of his blade with two hands, he gave a mighty roar and pulled the blade straight up, bisecting the hell spawn brutally, the corpse pieces slapping onto the ground. "For the Unity, and the Emperor." he spat down on the thing's remains, and went on the hunt once again.
I think the characterization of The Emperor is that he does not care about people in an individual level, only about humanity as a species. To the emperor, humanity as a whole is his "child", whom he wants to protect, but each individual person is nothing but a single cell in mankind's body: ephemeral, replaceable and microscopic in both size and importance. (By that analogy, Daemons, Xenos and Heretics would be analogous to various biological and psychological pathologies threatening that's metaphorical child's life) A parent would be willing to cut off their child's whole limb if it meant that the venom of a snake's bite wouldn't reach the child's vital organs, killing them as a result, but dooming the cut off limb to rot away, every cell that makes-up that part of the body fated to die so the others can live on. That's the reason the Emperor is willing to cause untold destruction and commit massive genocide even against his own people, to him, it's all the necessary actions to guarantee the survival of humanity. tldr; The Emperor cares about humanity, not people
@@Baldermort That statement is true both literally and figuratively, since the very physical appearance of The Emperor during the Great Crusade seemed to change according to who saw him at the time
Phoenix Flame exactly. I love the many theories (that I know anyway) about why that is. When feeling Mischievous I pretend he actually looks like Miss Marple. Just for giggles. ;).
@@Baldermort I personally like the story where Corax meets The Emperor, but he almost sees through his psychic glamour, so the image oscillates between the "Average-Looking Man" and "Giant Golden God" Perhaps the normal man appearance is his actual physical form, while the golden giant is the result of his overwhelming presence in the immaterium influencing his physical appearance. The larger-than-life aspect of the Master of Mankind could simply be his psychic "radiance" emanating from him, and the different appearances to difference people could be because each mind behaves like a filter through which his light passes through.
I think that the Emperor, for how much of a manipulative and cold individual, did not exterminate the Thunder Warriors with a light heart. I think it's easy to judge the Emperor from a point of much less responsibility, but God and Tzeench only know the weight of the sins the Emperor had to carry to establish a kingdom as big as a galaxy.
@@abdoul5176 Malcador: So Emps. Should we tell you're incredibly Psychic son about this Psychic project that would require someone who is well versed in Psychic knowledge and ability to make sure no Psychic interference ruins centuries of work? Emps:...Nah, I'll call him later. Just let him keep thinking I'm marginalizing him after that whole Council of Nikea thing when I took Russ' side, then let him keep his own Librarians.
I think the way the Primaris were put into canon was wrong, should have been just a new armor. But inserted as they are you'd think there would be a Thunder Warrior type moment for the Astartes…. I guess the Imperium is so besieged that they couldn't waste anyone.
Think it has to due with how astartes and thunder warriors were made. If thunder warriors only had gene and muscle enhancements, you can easily see how they're so unstable because our body will actively try to remove everything it registers as foreign and shouldnt be in your body, also they were a rushed creation so the alchemy behind it could be unstable. Astartes however are given entirely new organs, engineered in a way that the body would accept and graft into its own should it has the power to push itself beyond its stress limit to allow the child to become astartes, or die
God this is unbelievably sad. Imagine a movie of the thunder warriors. All their suffering and triumph,just for them to be killed by the emperor at the end. Id cry my eyes out at the theatre😂
Im into WH40k 20 years now! I didnt know that this was the fate of the Thunder Warriors. I thought they were inferior to Astartes and were gradually replaced by them. DAMN !
I have not often been so moved. The betrayal of the thunder warriors is truely despicable there was so many options to deal with the tw but the emperor chose to stab his loyal soldiers in the back.
From my understanding, they only way anyone could truly survive, is by avoiding not only xenos and chaos, but the emperor as well, the moment you outlive your usefulness, or your death is seen as a worthy sacrifice for his goals, you're done for.
I'm always proud of how most of the Thunder Warriors accepted there fate. Some did not, but it was a hard pill to swallow. I'd love to see models and rules for them.
“I want, what they want, and every other guy who came over here and spilled his guts and gave everything he had, wants! For our Emperor to love us as much as we love him! That's what I want!” -Rambo quote. That quote is a great summery of what most likely went through those minds that got cut down by their brothers in arms and their beloved emperor. If those theories be believed and not but fabrications of the warp spawn.
I’ve just realized how similar the betrayal of the Thunder Warriors on Mt. Ararat was to the later Istvan 3 dropsite massacre. The 30k era has to be one of my favorites in this universe. I hope one day this series will get the visual adaption it deserves.
Was Horus right to fear being replaced? Was Guilliman’s ideal that the Space Marines would become Lords of the Imperium too bright? Would love to see some models of the Thunder Warriors
*Yes* I remember in one of Boldemort's videos a point was made that the Primarchs were expressly built for war/crusades and I think it was Horus who pondered what the fate of he and his brothers would be when the Emperor's ideals were realized. Being replaced was one of them of course and looking at the Thunder Warriors I can't say I blame him at all.
@@abdoul5176 the primarchs were created as totalitarian autocratic kings, not mere weapons of war. They were not just Generals but rulers of men. They were the Emperor's plan for governnance, not just subjugation. There's no way he would have made them so psychically powerful if that was not the case. The Primarchs and Astartes were his nearly-finished plan.
@@NecrosAcolyte Sorry dude "There's no way he would have made them so psychically powerful if that was not the case." Completely throws me off for some reason. Can you explain further?
Kagji except he kinda did put an organization that rule over them as well called the highlords of terra whom consisted of humans that represented all wings of the imperium, and the highlords have the power to erase the existence of primarchs from imperial records (and some say in hush whispers their lives as well) which was the first thing they did with the missing primarchs and their legions right after appointed, the head of the highlords at that time malcador even choked Horus a primarch for daring to tried speak he erased bothers’ name. Primarchs aren’t royalty they’re tools they bear the emperor genes cause it was the best for the purpose, not because he wanted a ruling caste of immortal warlords, he needed conquerers that have long life spans because of how vast the human was scattered
What the Spacemarines have over both Custodies and Thunder Warriors are their brotherhood- discipline. Like a pack of wolfs vs a single Bear, the ability of marines to fight as an unbreakable units with all their genetic superiority makes them so fucking lethal!
@predooo Wow! I think we need to be clear about marines in the current chapter structure vs the legion structure. You are right, that chapters are (somewhat) controlled by the high lords and monitored by the inquisition, but the Custodies was also under strict laws about their operational limits, they just made those limits themselfs. Back in Legion time, the marines was almost completely independent lead by their primarchs, who had massiv authority and answered only to the Emperor and later Horus. Those Legions had serious intelligence networks, and the Alpha legion are so superior to the Custodies in spycraft, that it is almost a joke. About being bound by the Codex; Some chapters follow it very strict, but others like the Space Wolves don't really care about it. And although each chapter comes from a specific legion and therefore has a preference for a specific form of War, they are perfectly capable of fighting in other ways. The Fists can attack, The Blood angels can defend and so forth. Finally you talk about freethinking. Custodies are the least human of all the post humans. They are the least emotional and least individual of all. Every singel marines have more individual thoughts and personality then a custodies. I am not saying, that they are robots, but they can't even dream of disobeying an order.
@predooo I am not really sure about your first points about chapters in current 40k vs 30k. Chapters are small elite attack teams with solid logical and tech support. Legions was galaxy conquering armies with hole sectors dedicated to their upkeep. Guillimans crusade in 40k is the first large scale crusade-era deployment of marines in a legion-like way, but it was allways meant to be a temporary system. Now that the crusade is over, he has split his forces back up into the chapter structure. I personally think the hole chapter reform back after the Heresy war was a mistake, and that only Legions could have won the long war, but that is only on the macro level. The individual marines in 40k fights just as well as they did in 30k, but less free and politically independent. That is the tradeoff, Guillimans reforms made. To prevent the post humans from ruling, they was split up. About tactics. Yes sometimes both the old legions and the current chapters fight in less then logical ways, but the example you use is not representable. Dorn was depressed and near suicidal, and wanted to break his own legion against Perturabo's trap. The Iron cage was the willing breaking of the 7th legion, not just stupidity. Custodes also have criticised for their lack of direct action. They have not been totally absent from the wider galaxy for 10.000 years, but mostly they have remained on terra. The average marine chapters marines have seen more combat and wars then most current Custodes. Yes, Custodes are a ridiculously powerful force, but they are a very specific weapon. They defend the Emperor's person, not the imperium. The reason terra still stands today is not the doing of the final guardians, but the frontline warriors of the Guard, Marines and forces of Mars.
Constantin Valdor made this clear to Ushatan. The Thunder Warriors were designed to a purpose: to conquer Terra. They were designed to the conditions on Terra, the threat, the duration. Once Terra was unified, the Thunder Warriors were not equipped to handle the next stage. The real question I have is why the Emperor felt that he had to destroy the Thunder Warriors rather than simply let them hang around until they expired. As was said, they were unstable. Many just died from genetic faults, or went psycho and had to be put down.
It is such a damming statement about the early Imperium, that the top law keeper of the first Highlords sought to take Constantin Valdor into custody for the crime of exterminating the Thunder Warriors. And Valdor simply states, that he and by proxy the Emperor is above any Law!
This more so than anything else I’ve encountered really illustrates how sad the fate of the thunder warriors is. It doesn’t get a lot of attention, but they were betrayed by the King they loved and it never made sense to them. I find it bestirring. Thank you for such incredible content!
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Baldermort, I have been trying to contact you over Patreon and mail, but maybe my messages have not ben getting through to you? You misspelled my name is the Credits of your Black Legion video, and my name was missing from the list of Patreon supporters in your Blood Angels video. Please tell me, if you have not been able to receive my messages!
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I am so sorry brother Kristian. I have now responded on Patreon. Embarrassingly, I used the wrong template in my rush. I cannot apologize enough, as per my message on patron.
Many many apologies. :(
@@Baldermort Same here, didnt see my name in the credits and you havent answered me on patreon (loke marsh) but ive just thought you have been busy :3 great video btw.
morten123456789 many apologies as well. I was intent in doing all patreon responses at a more leisurely pace tomorrow you see. I don’t like to rush.
Sorry.
The issue has been time these last few weeks. I’ve been trying to complete another project on top of usual scheduling and it’s been a bit mad. Strangeness on top of course.
My sincere apologies. I will respond.
I got to say very good narration on the thunder warrior monologue. Really felt the utter sadness of it all. Idc honestly what people say or the rationale they want to take to justify removing the piece that was the thunder warriors from the chess board. They were used and they were betrayed and that to me is tragic in how you were able to vocally relay that. I hope that astartes space marine listened well because that thunder warrior he just slew could very well be his fate when all is said and done.
So, thunder warriors conquered terra, the marines conquered the galaxy, the guard then held onto it for 10k years. Hail the flashlight!
MyElla Speed classic. Love it! :).
As it was meant to be. The Emperor never wished anything other but humans to lead humans, though he had to dip his post human hand in the process due to the increase in chaos taint in the warp.
The Primaris Conquered the profit margins and the Copyright laws.
He who scoffs at the power of a lazgun has never walked through a field of 1000 of them
@@SlocumJoe7740 The Emperor betrayed the Thunder warriors as GW now betray the Space Marines.
He who betrays others, no matter his reasons, should hold no grudge when he too is eventually betrayed.
Bold of you to say that, Commissar.
Oh, absolutely. The Man Emperor's dream for Humanity is real and genuine, his intentions the noblest of all the rulers who came before him.
But those whose who he sacrificed and discarded for that dream may not see it that way.
To die for Humanity willingly is heroic. To be thrown into the furnace "for" Humanity is another thing entirely.
But Humanity *didn't* win.
@@ReconCrusader And even his son ... the spiritual liege ... left the palace in disgust. ''a god he may be ... but not one worthy of worship''.
truly ... the Emperor is a complex thing ... but without fault ... absolutely not.
He was essentially a late stage cancer patient who was able to kill almost 30 Imperial Fist Legionnaires with what it sounds like his bare hands!
Plus wearing Armor that was for sure over 10k years over and having rounds "bounce" off. Like what in the hell were these men in their prime.
ExeErdna it wouldn’t be 10k years. This was still during the Great Crusade so it’s probably a few hundred years to a thousand or so. But yea it was old armor that was really primitive compared to “modern” power armor.
Wait a minute... with bare hands?
@@AMCelestial Well probably ceramite plated fists admittedly, but the Thunderwarriors were just shy of Adeptes Custodes in levels of strength (certain individual specimens may have been more so, considering the hodge podge nature of them as nothing was standardized in their augmentations). And it's probable a Custodes could literally tear the limbs off of an Astartes. It's not far flung at all that he could have simply battered their skulls to useless pulp while shattering their bodies. Everything they did was brutal and vicious, they were war fighters devoid of any of the honour or splendor the Astartes had. None of those kills were likely to have been 'clean' as it were.
@@ExeErdna But technology, especially power armor, was better in Humanity's distant past (Golden Age of Technology) than in 40K, if you discount Cawl's recent inventions.
So older doesn't necessarily mean worse.
And so it ends. A corpse sat atop a throne of lies, won by the blood of those he betrayed. An imperium built from the scraps of titans grinding against the walls of entropy.
That last 'how could he' really hit me. God tier voice acting.
„Most of you will not survive. But that is a sacrifice that I am willing to make!“
-The Emperor (probably) M31 Unification Wars
ROFL! Perfect quote, Lord Faquart. :)
😢 * big sad*
The problem was Thunder warriors were physicallyand mentally unstable. They had the bad habit of going insane and going on murderous rampages. They had to be culled.
George Stauber *going* insane?
For Unity !!!!!.
There is a simple but immutable law of biology, that an organism's capabilities are always limited by the chemical energy available to it, no matter how well designed. The Primarchs alone are an exception to this, but they are not fully creatures of this world and are not limited by conventional physics. For all others, this law holds true.
Consider then the Space Marine, the gene-forged warrior designed to conquer the stars. They had to be the ultimate full-spectrum warrior, able to endure chemical, biological and radiological threats, if their armour failed they had to be able to endure foreign atmospheres and even breathe liquid if they had to, so manifold and diverse are the theaters they could expect to fight in. If fighting on lightless worlds they had to be able see in pitch darkness, if captured they had to be able to break their bonds and escape with caustic venom, if fighting an enemy whose thoughts and motivations were utterly alien to man, they had to be able to extract and digest its race-memories and instincts to adapt their tactics. So many tools in their arsenal, so many biochemical pathways that have to be supplied with power, and though their metabolisms are tuned to the finest tolerances, each one remains a drain nonetheless.
Now, consider the Thunder Warrior. They needed none of it, they were designed for ONE theater of war, Terra itself, mankind's own homeworld, the ideal conditions for the raising of a human being already met as well as any world could. All that power, all that fine-tuned biology could be directed to one purpose - crushing the foe, utterly and brutally, with the efficiency of a caloric equation.
WizardJim well said brother. Well said. :).
Now we have even more potent Astartes in the form of Primaris
@E.R. That makes no sense though. Why do they not age? The Emps didn't do such modifications as far as I know. TW are not from children, they don't have implanted genes, and are basicly buff guys. They are gene-enhanced. (alchemical augmentation and muscle-grafting techniques) They are not even stable.
All that modification would lower their lifespan to decades. This is why he killed them, no? That also doesn't make sense. If they would just die so soon, them being more loyal than an astarte, why not just help them, give them luxury and send them off to war? The current Imp regen tech also couldn't heal them. Right? Being the no.1 reason why they were killed.
I feel like there is another "secret"/lie hidden there. Maybe he killed them because they knew of Chaos? Or because they remembered the "old terra" and that didn't fit the image?
love it , I do this as well , I mean that's were all those biology chemistry classes are for right?
MamboJambo I’m not sure if my interpretation is correct as it’s just based on the name, but don’t they get genetic implantation in the form of the gene seed? The results are seen as the Astartes are phenotypically altered to look similar to their Primarch. Additionally, the strong regenerative abilities of Astartes might keep them living longer as a side effect.
Emps: "wow, the Thunder Warriors are so brutal, barbaric, so bloodthirsty and uncontrollable. This would ruin the image of the coming Imperium. Get rid of theM!"
Also Emps: "Oh hey Angron, do you want a legion? Conrad Curze! Wow. Here is a whole legion for your sadism, so you can broadcast to entire worlds and systems your unspeakable horrors and crimes. Let the people know of what will happen to them if they are not obedient. This surely will not damage the image of the Imperium."
"He WILL replace you once you outlive your usefulness." *Adeptus Astartes looks at Primaris*
I really do hope there will be an Astartes civil war in canon. I really hope that's what's been building since the advent of Primaris.
Actually. Do you think that could be a way to make it so that the entire loyalist space marine line is only primaris, just say that all of the firstborn turned traitor?
@@nuclear1617 It may be like a Thunder Warriors esque ending, but more likely then not. Firstborn will keep petering out of existence until the last one eventually perishes in the line of duty
If Roboute could hear those last words quoted to him after he spoke to the emperor after coming back hed trip out a bit. Hed stay loyal no doubt but hed never see the emperor as a father again i think.
@@gypdarin1458 I got the sense he already dropped the "Father" thing with big E already. I imagine when the Lion comes back he'll feel the same way
''Proudly we stood array for a parade, waiting our reward..."
God, this reminds me of the ambush scene of Berserk.
Duuuuuuuuuuuude fuck man was that haertbreaking
The Band of the Hawk had their parade, everything would be ok, but Griffith was too hard gay for Guts and lost his mind when Big Sword Man said he was leaving
The eclipse
@@TheCommandershepherd No, before that. That time the band got called to assemble in the open without their weapons and armor.
One of the many reasons, imagined or misled or otherwise, Horus chose to defy the Emperor was out of a fear of being discarded after he and his brothers conquered the stars; set aside for human bureaucrats, with his glories ignored under the guise of mundane day-to-day operation after the wars were won.
It's with great amusement that I consider just how dangerously close to being correct Horus would never even realize he was, here.
This is what he said to Malcador, when the two brothers memory was erased. When even their statues were removed. This is why Malcador chocked Horus. Because he didn't want the glory and deeds to be forgotten.
Exactly. Horus figured it out then confronted Malcador who only proved his point.
That was the longest death monologue I have ever heard.
SO far............
They were super-human, why could they not have a super-terminus? Everything maximized, even their ends...
It's a heartmoving rendition. I actually put myself in the shoes of the betrayed dying thunder warrior in the first segment...and it's one of the saddest tearful things to imagine
@@josephukpong2287 Was one of Baldermort's Thousand Sons, seen every video, he is possessed of a great gift of transporting the listener! Check out the Night Lords episode...absolutely *MENTAL*, a personal favorite!
It take a long time to kill a Thunder Warrior. Literally.
The thunder warriors are the unsung heroes of the Imperium, for without them, there would be no imperium.
You know what's crazy? Even after suffering through such traumatic betrayal, the Thunder Warrior still remained true and did not fall to the ruinous powers. Meanwhile, a mere *vision* of a potential betrayal by the Emperor was enough to shatter half the Primarchs. A vision that many could have predicted was a lie drove such powerful and godly figures to corruption, swayed by jealousy and visions of betrayal; yet the Thunder Warrior remained true despite believing he saw the Emperor himself slaughtering his loyal servants.
The Thunderwarrios were betrayed, they still loved him. Mortarian got his kill stolen, he then decided to become a literal putrid demon cause of it
Bit late.. But I think. The Thunder Warriors were human. Fully. They lived the bad times, they fought during the bad times, and saw the Emperor's work and the good it bought. They saw the peace finally coming and the end of the hard times. For what they fought so hard.
If Horus had heard this particular Thunder Warrior's tale, his fall would have actually made sense.
@@gavinboyer4634that’s a good point and probably would’ve been a way more interesting dynamic. Especially considering there is a story of the war hounds fighting a group of surviving thunder warriors on like a prison station. So maybe Horus encounters these guys at some point and then the seed is initially planted.
"How could he"? This question of betrayal would be asked many times in the near future. Like father, like son. Perhaps it really was a forgone conclusion.
Oh damn. Karma and irony. Beside being a heretic, thats a good point.
He was betrayed the same way he betrayed the Thunder Warriors.
S Blair well said indeed! Like he suffered the curse of the Noldor. Brilliant thought. Mind if I use that observation, brother Blair? :). A no is as good as a yes. :).
@@Baldermort Thank you and of course you may!
@@TherealSBlair As you use the symbol of Chaos and your last name is 'Blair' I assume the 'S' (rather than the expected 'T' stands for Satan?) If so well done spotting 'the TAINT'!
(see Also 'Harold Saxon', Dr Who's 'Master' played so brilliantly by John Simm's (2007 to 2009) as UK PM based on the same TAINT! Back when the show was still great and run by the one guy who knew who to get it right and made Nu Who great. Russel Davis before they kicked him out for pissing off said PM TAINTED TONY and PM Cameron and ensured the show went tits up intellectually; slimed with the taint of Disneyfication). Or are you something more on the lines of 'The Exorcist'?? Both work!
Hrmmm. Is Horus betrayal really comparable? Hours wouldn't have betrayed his father if Chaos didn't intervene. Although Hours like his father saw his betrayal as necessary for the future of mankind so that's one thing. I think in this case we overlook what the EMPEROR is, he's the face of humanity and wears different masks also reflected in the primearchs.. Betrayal is apart of the human condition. So.... maybe you guys are correct.
Man, that was heartbreaking. Imagining this once mighty worrior succumbing more to his emotion injuries rather than his physical ones. Is body might have been badly damaged. But he died of a broken heart.
I literally cried. Thank you for this experience.
Extraordinarily moving and tragic...that clip could match the emotional sadness from any Hollywood blockbuster. For those who.understand the honor and sacrifice of military life...and the unspeakable pain of betrayal from one to whom you are totally loyal..like army veterans, it's a very touching clip.
Imagine being that astartes seeing that thing drop that bombshell on you.
@@josephukpong2287 GOOD THING WE TREAT OUR VETS SO WELL IN THE REAL WORLD, right?!?! Right?? Riiiiiiggfffhejsjsbabwbw
@@KriegCommisar all I can think is, if I were that Astartes, I’d wonder if maybe there’s some detail we don’t know. Maybe we’re only getting one side of the story. The Emperor had to have a REASON to do what he did, right? He had to know something we don’t. Right?
Because otherwise, yah, it looks like our beloved god king committed cold blooded murder, and that’s not a great look.
@@AnIdiotsLantern Absolutely the same thought. There was no reason to. He just wanted to get rid of the old. Maybe because of future influence or sth. But surviving TW have proven that they can be healed, upgraded, can become stable, and are resistant to Chaos. The reasons are gone. They were people of the old ages, and were probably killed off for that.
“How could he?” When men cry
As a US war vet, I whole heartedly feel for the thunder warriors. We were used to fight until we were no needed. And now we find out the truth within the “Afghanistan papers”....we were and still are being tossed into a meat grinder for what...to save face??
Chris thank you for your service I think it’s time for us to leave the Middle East no point in staying there.
The young and brave are sent in to die for the rich and powerful. And if you are not killed in battle you are discarded and forgotten about, forced to live with the things no one should have to see. The life of a soldier. There is nothing more human than war. You see the good sides of humanity, the ingenuity, the comaradery, the compassion and you also see the ugly sides of humanity, the destruction, the killing, the callousness. Death is apart of life, the die has been cast the moment you were born, but life is precious, and should be lived to its fullest. No matter what. War is apart of our culture, and may never subside, but do not blame the soldiers, blame the governments, the top of the chain. The rich and powerful. The callous leaders who send thousands to die for their own ego. To save face. If anyone deserves to be spit on, it is them. Not those who suffered because of them.
@ Do not take my words as an insult, on the contrary. I support veterans and their families, and go out of my way to do so. For most people whether you volunteer or not, the scars from your experiences still change you. I've met a lot of guys who came back from Iraq who were severely war torn, and I've also met a few who enjoyed their time over there. Both were forever changed by their experiences, causing divorces, drinking problems, anger issues, etc. My point is/was when I made this comment was to point out these things. Thank you for your service, and I hope you're doing well in life after the war and haven't had to experience any of these unfortunate side-effects of military service.
Cegesh elaborate
@Cegesh So you're saying that we should treat our warriors like outsiders? Despite the fact that they are the reason people like you get to go on the internet and have an opinion? There's nothing "North Korean" about giving veterans the respect they deserve. All veterans sacrifice years of their lives to serve something bigger than themselves out of patriotism. Some don't come back the same, and others never come back at all. It's easy for you to sit there and act all high and mighty, but you wouldn't be able to go through what many of them went through. Just be glad your country's not at war and you get to look down on those who serve instead of fighting and dying beside them. People like you are the reason many veterans feel like outsiders.
These boys were always a fascination of mine. Staggeringly loyal, supreme in all physical and mental traits, but I guess the flame that burns twice as bright, lasts half as long.
Didn't most thunder warriors suffer heavily from mental snaps and psychological problems?
@@justiceforjoggers2897 they weren't as tactical as the Space Marines and knew nothing of diplomacy. They also had very short lifespans, dying in a few years due to cancer.
@@jagerdergroe8604 Or a large variety of other biological issues
@@frenchsoldier8485could survive the harshest chemical weapons, but a common cold could drop them like flies
I would absolutely kill for a “tales of old night” book series about human cultures before the arrival of the Emperor and the Primarchs!
John White I honestly think it’s possible that they will do it. Eventually. The potential for new model ranges would be just too much to resist eventually. Many are gagging for a chance to play through the unification wars. I know. I’m right there with them. :).
Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer I’d love to get my hands on some technobarbarians maybe I’d pick Ursh because of all the warp fuckery, which faction would you play do you think?
John White lets be honest, I’d want to play them all. Then spend about 8 months trying to decide. ;).
Human culture before the Emperor was like how it is now but overpopulated. What's there to guess about? Lol
Chode Mckenzie you should read up on it, it’s actually pretty fascinating with nations like Ursh and old Albia
The emperor likely saw the thunder warriors as a symbol of his failure to bring the other factions of man into the fold without conflict, so he probably hated them the whole time, barely tolerating their savage presence until the moment they weren't absolutely necessary
Wow now that is a dark take. Well done brother. Harsh. :)
How does that work if he still used his forces later to either subjugate a world or destroy it if they didn't accept him?
@@blumiu2426 to not use them would in the end cause even more suffering and destruction as various techno-barbarians some of which were corrupted by or outright worshipping chaos gods would remain in Control of terra for much longer before they could be removed... Damned if u do Damned if u don't.
That is very sad. That someone you look up that much, can barely tolerate you.
He didn't hate them, he just never cared about them, nor his sons nor anyone
The Thunder Warriors got the rawest deal in Terran history. Emps literally Order 66'd them. The Emperor protects...until you are no longer useful. I honestly hope Emps never officially recovers because I truly believe he would be the end of his own empire.
*HeRESy DeTEcTEd!!*
Imagine if he still had them during the siege of Terra
@@ahmedabbas4434 the siege would've only lasted a day at most
@@hunterskidmore1672 the traitor astartes walk in and the thunder wariors just slay them all
@@dndlover2690 yeah very much so
Emperor: Captain-General Cody, the time has come. Execute order 66.
Valdor: It will be done, my lord. *motions to fire* Blast him!
@@shadowstrider8295 Emps: A powerful custodian you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth Valdor.
Gareth Tang lol!!!
The Prequels are strooooong with you.
Good...
I cried throughout the entire audio drama as you took the perspective of the last Thunder Warrior, and the worst part was not the Warrior dying to other loyalists of the Imperium. Or the fact that he had given up running to fight a final battle when he had finally attained a sense of sanity if not a sense of normalcy, which is stretching the vocabulary when taking into account of his kind.
It was the sheer betrayed outlook at what he was made to become by his liege lord that he would have followed to hell if he had been ordered to. A man sent to die by the guns of not against his foes, but by the ones who he could have called allies in the Imperium.
And it stung more that it all took place at the beginning of his rule, and the future made all the more uncertain if he truly has our best interest in mind...
It's a heartmoving rendition. I actually put myself in the shoes of the betrayed dying thunder warrior in the first segment...and it's one of the saddest tearful things to imagine
The Emperor dosen't have our best interests in mind, he has WHAT HE THINKS are our best interests.
Oh fuck off Richard... you didn't cry.
Pussy
Kinda funny the first guy thought he could hunt down a Primarch with 30 Astartes
George Soha Konrad Curze was killed by a mortal, so he’s a bit optimistic
@@usvplaylist8758 Curze allowed himself to be killed, to him it proved he was right.
3 companies of Space Marines is less the amount that tried to assassinate Robutte Guilliman on Ultramar during the Heresy
Arik Taranis Key word assassinate, this thunder warrior knew he was being hunted. Rowboat wasn't supposed to
Well, I don't think he knew. But chances are, depending on the Primarch, it's realistic to think that a 100 Thunder Warrior would kill one if they charged on him. Of course, probably not Sanguinius. That guy held an entire legion by himself, than broke a demons back, and than went to face off Horus. But sending a 1000 Thunder Warriors to kill off a Primarch seems like a realistic way for an assassination.
"Remember when you sent the Astartes to cull the Thunder Warriors father?" - Horus
"Yes my son, why do you ask? - Emperor
"Well you won't do that to us one day will you?"
**Emperor Working on the Primaris Project** "No son I would never dream of it."
Guilliman started the primaris project
Horus: Oh good. That is a relief. Forgive me Father. Just nerves talking there. So, does this mean were allowed to talk about our two Lost Brothers and acknowledge their heroics publicly?
The Emperor:...Oh well look at the time, I've got some Emprah Things to work on with Malcador. Bye son!
Horus:...I'm...I'm sure it will be fine.
The Emperor is basically a tabletop nerd. Always going for new projects
@@wolfjaw7104 it was Belisarius Cawl who created the primaris. Guilliman sanctioned the project.
Have you heard of Rubicon Marines?
"I have bestsd over a score of the things created to replace me. I can die at peace with honor."
RIP noble Thunder Warrior. More.nobility than the corpse god deserved.
Remember. Before the "First" Legion, there was the Thunder Legion.
And there have been few of their like since then.
And outlive both, will the Custodes.
Long have I waited for this ancient history lesson.
Its still only an introduction. Just so you know. :) :)
@@Baldermort Aslong everthing goes smoothly I am willing to wait for more asome and heretical Broadcasts and Lessons from your Highness.
Karima Kadj I want to like this but I don’t want to upset the balance
Aslong you do not oppose the teacher I welcome you ;)
Newfound respect for the Thunder Warriors. Phenomenal presentation, as always, Brother Baldermort. May the Emperor protect.
Thank you brother Diomedes. I am sorry I have not responded on the patron yet, but will be getting into that tomorrow and giving you a full and total response.
Sorry for my tardiness. I was working on a collab over the weekend and only getting about 4 hours sleep. So I did not trust myself with clarity in messaging. Please do forgive me. :(
@@Baldermort however gracious that is it is completely unnecessary. I really appreciate you. This is a proper response. You're a great man, Elite Battle Brother and fantastic Creator. No apologies necessary. Be well, Brother Baldermort.
Diomedes XXII as always, you are incredibly kind and patient brother. Just remember always, it’s responses like these and people like you that are actually the heart of the guides. We do this together. And I couldn’t do it without you. Full stop.
Speak tomorrow brother thank you again :).
@@Baldermort my sentiments exactly, my Brother. Until tomorrow then. Be well.
Emperor is not protecting today today is a sad day.
This is one of the saddest things ive heard they truly loved him and he stabbed them in the heart
"Thunder Warriors aka Legiones Cataegis.
'The Cataegis were caught in a cycle of aggression. Death meant nothing to them. For a time, it seemed that orders meant nothing to them, either - they were elemental in their violence.... The Thunder Warriors demonstrated their greatest weakness. They were like the munitions we used back then[Unification Wars] - powerful, but unstable. Once loosed, they were hard to control....'
'You will recall my concerns about the Cataegis during the Maulland Sen campaign. Those concerns had not gone away during the following century of their many deployments. We had conquered much of the globe by then, with the Thunder Warriors bearing the brunt of the fighting, so do not think we were unmindful of their sacrifice. By then, it was widely believed that what could have been perfected, had been perfected. A Thunder Warrior was a truly fearsome proposition. They were armed and armoured nearly as well as the Legio Custodes. Their numbers had grown rapidly, following improvements in the gene-cultivating methods used here and at the other sites. But it was never enough.They remained unstable. From primarch to neophyte, they would break down suddenly, or lose their minds, or simply stop responding to orders. This was not simply a matter of dry practicality for us - it was a foul thing to witness. A warrior’s blood might suddenly rebel against the arteries that carried it, or the organs might start to devour themselves, or the muscle might explode with breakneck growth. For a proud and fearless creation, that was a poor way to die. Be aware, also, that they were quite conscious of this likely outcome. It did predictable things to their psychology. Knowing that they were limited by time and circumstance, their attitude to risk became even more cavalier. They were hard to govern from the start, but as the Imperium began to reach its secure zenith, they risked becoming an empire within an empire, and one with the old reckless dangers of the past writ large...' - Form the memories of Captain-General Constantin Valdor of the Legio Custodes.
The Fourth Legion Cataegis was known as "Iron Lords" They were specialists in siegecraft, through both training and genecraft.
And their "Primarch" The primarch was equivalent to the captain-general rank in broad terms, responsible for the discipline and conduct of the entire Legio. He was not physically different to any of his troops, but had distinguished himself in combat and leadership, and was appointed directly by the Emperor.
This primarch of the Fourth was Ushotan. He was a superlative warrior, and a fine general. In most respects..."
- Constantin Valdor
A great read. I still think it was a pretty cruel thing to do so. Things might've been different if Emps would've made different choices. Fe.: Space Marines recruited from Terra, were the first to be purged by heretics, as they remained loyal. The loyalty should've never been given to just the Primarchs. Iacton Qruze from the Luna Wolfes, pre-Horus, is a great example. Loyalty and greatness in one. Poor guy.
However most of the legion was bound to Horus and out of loyalty they followed Horus. Starting the Horus Herecy.
@@Kareszkoma I'm not gonna play, the devils advocate for the Emperor, but the whole situation with Thunder Warriors. Primarchs and even first Astartes was much, much more complicated. Also Ruinous Powers where not f*cking around with Emperor and Primarch Project.
Pls where did you get this excerpt by Constantin Valdor? Which book or weblink?
@@josephukpong2287 books.google.com/books/about/Valdor_Birth_of_the_Imperium.html?id=3BMZxwEACAAJ&source=kp_cover
Valdor : Birth of the Imperium.
@@josephukpong2287 Yeah all quotes are from the pages of "Valdor" You can find some other pieces of Thunder Warriors lore in "Outcast Dead" I finished reading Valdor like, two/three days ago.
What manner of wars requires the creation of warriors such as these?
Answer: Wars like you've never believed.
- Raclaw to Brother Brunner (Damnation Crusade)
The unification wars must've been so bloody, not even Astartes could stand on equal ground.
True, it was not war of man against man, it was man against tech and bio enhanced barbarians using remnants of the golden age. Astartes would have never sufficed, so something as powerful as the thunder legion was needed
The opening story is magnificent and moving, and also ominous. History could have repeated itself. Perhaps the knowledge of fate of the Thunder Warriors was one of the true causes of the Heresy . . .
I must also applaud your narration. You make the Thunder Warrior into a fully rounded and deeply sympathetic character. Your voice, cadence, and tone you remind me of the late great Patrick Tull, who narrated the whole Aubrey-Maturin series
I once heard a great wordsmith say he was no Shakespeare but I often wonder who but someone of Shakespeare could craft such a story. Not just wonderful work Baldermort this is beautiful work. Truly heart wrenching and expertly told.
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Clicked so fast the bell didn't even have time to notify me.
But for an edited, more serious response; the Thunder Warriors are one of the real tragic stories of the Warhammer Universe, providing a glimpse of the future grim darkness of the 41st millennia even in the first few centuries of the 30st millennia. These brave warriors, forged by the Emperor to unify Terra beneath his own banner, only to then be cast aside after the final battle of the Unification War had been won as the tools they ultimately were; obsolete and replaced by the Space Marines. The words of this dying warrior in this video also provides a rather sombre warning to his replacers, and perhaps a rather distinct justification for the fears of some of the Primarchs that turned against the Emperor during the Horus Heresy.
If the Thunder Warriors were so easily thrown aside after they were no longer needed due to Terra being unified under the Emperor's rule, who would be able to say that the Primarchs themselves and their sons wouldn't be cast aside after the galaxy was unified beneath the Emperor's rule? After all, Malcador and by proxy the Emperor himself made it clear that humanity would be ruled by humanity; that the Primarchs, being so beyond the standard human, would never be able to rule over humanity as they didn't understand humanity.
Thanks for listening brother. :)
@@drkittyphd6205 well it is confirm that Sanguineous himself feared the Emperor. Probably because he knows that once the flaw of his gene seed got out. That would be all the justification he needed to purge the mutant primarch. We still have no idea what tje Emperor did to the "lost and the dammed" primarchs.
@@drkittyphd6205 No, none of them Primarchs were designed to be disposable, that much is obvious when we look at the likes of Angron and Konrad Curze; in the former case in particular, it's clearly evident - the Emperor would rather have a damaged Primarch leading his legion than a dead one. Leaning in one of Baldermort's previous videos, there's only really three Primarchs with a clear and designed role for what would come after the completion of the Great Crusade, those being Horus, Sanguinius, Dorn and Curze. Horus would conquer the Imperium - his role after, well, that's less certain, Sanguinius was to be the Imperium, Dorn was to build the Imperium and Curze would protect the Imperium and enforce its laws.
But the Emperor hasn't been afraid to discard tools he deems them unnecessary; I believe in the Emperor that viewed the Primarchs as his sons personally, that he loved them as only a father could. But the Primarchs themselves didn't know that, they didn't see that; quite a few of them saw and felt the opposite. One of the closest relationships between the Emperor and one of the Primarchs was probably Magnus, due to their shared psyctic gifts and the simple fact they'd spoken for decades before the Emperor actually came to Magnus in person. But the moment he thought Magnus was a traitor, he sent Russ to bring Magnus to Terra to stand justice.
@@DominionSorcerer Magnus had a clear role designed for him after the great crusade. He was meant to power the golden throne/imperial webway.
@Dominion IF he didn't plan the Horus Herecy too. If Angron was to be one of the sons to join the rebellion, than it's a win win. I just don't think Horus was to be a traitor. That's were Tzeench comes into plan.
"Nothing quite happens for the first time anymore. History rhymes" looking at you Primaris
lol, cant wait for the first primaris to turn
there was a passage in a book (forget which one), where an oldschool astartes and some primaris fought and wounded a chaos space marine. as he was dying, he was telling the astartes about what the emperor did to the thunder warriors and that the primaris standing around you now are going to betray you, exactly as it happened before.
It does help that the regular space marine has a method of becoming a primaris.
@@henry7696 Of Honor and Iron
The Emperor can lie to you
The Emperor can betray you
You are REQUIRED to love him.
but he does not love you.
He cannot love you.
The mind cannot mourn every follicle of hair that falls from its head.
Demographic Dominion
I mean look at his children. His kids were literally designed to be useful
Perterabo, Dorn and Manus were genius craftsmen and architects
Magnus was literally created to be the second most powerful psycher to sit on the golden throne
Horus, gilliman and sanguinious were negotiators and buricrats
And the lion, angron and Leman were created to be a tactician, sledgehammer and loyal executioner.
And 2 were straight up expunged from history
The mind cannot mourn every follicle of hair that falls from its head.
*Flashbacks to bald people who do everything to keep their hair
@@juanpablomontalvo4715 you forgot kurze and the Raven Primarch forgot his name
@@funtimefredboi3877 Raven Guard's Primarch
Named is Corvous Corax
Emperor: "Hmmm... Too much sauce."
Thunder Warriors, they scare me man.
I coof in anticipation for their return
You;re not alone. Scare the willies out of me too. :)
Nurgle khorne does that to you when you see his shades.
No need to worry about them any more.
1 thunder warrior took out 10 astartes before going down id he terrified too
These Thunder Warriors gave him everything literally and in the end the Emperor betrayed them. That has got to be the saddest story I ever heard. I always wondered what happened to them? I thought he just stop making more of them and they died out but the betraying them I never felt this sad for loyal warriors ever. I still have so much to learn in the 40k history.
I could not agree with you more. Such betrayal is unspeakable..very sad.
Although. I would like to hear the Emperor's side of the story as well. It might have been a broader tragedy beyond his intention
@@josephukpong2287 I agree with you. I know the Thunder Warriors weren't perfect soldiers, they are stronger then space marines but it is said they were very unstable mentally and physically. I think their life span wasn't longer then a few years due to their genetics being very unstable but still just because they were flawed and had shorter life spans does not give the Emperor the right to betray them.
You see, Horus saw a similar betrayal looming over the horizon. That is why he did what he did.
ItDoesn'tReallyMatter at least perturabo understood that he was a tool, broken by it but at least knew his place, like he knew everything else, whiteout warp visions, mind you.
Horus.. horus is inexcusable.He knew the dream. He knew the design and the goal. Mankind Unchallenged!
Even if that was the will of the emperor, that the Astartes be purged ( heretical and ludicrous) so what of it?
Accept His design gracefully he should had, primarchs are tools to further the agenda of mankind, and by association, the emperor’s agenda.
It's not that simple. Terra had been won. The fleets were being created and the armies for the crusade ramped up. That took nearly a century. Do you really believe the thunder warriors could wait that long without combat. They were given the best death the Emperor could give them. Honourably in combat, their sacrifice remembered and honoured by Humanity forever. Better than being killed as traitors as they inevitably would have rebelled against the Imperium as the only outlet for their combat rage.
I love the Thunder Warriors, these mythic individuals who helped their Emperor win a world, but he wanted more.
Emperor: "Execute order 66"
Astartes: "It will be done my lord"
Custodes*
It's the custodes that execute it, astartes weren't formed during the betrayal.
@@flightlesscoffeebirdboy9655 the astartes existed by only in few numbers
@@jovee6155 In total they were probably thousands of space marines in total from all 20 legions already, they were also used against the thunder warriors
@AKUJIRULE I still consider it betrayal in a way, but at the end of the Unification Wars they were so unstable physically and mentally, thus a threat to other imperial forces and infrastructure so they must be wiped out
I've always wondered why, true the astartes was an upgrade, just not make anymore as the SM were introduced. Frack, just give them a hard assault that they couldn't win. That would have been honorable.
The SM were more stable and more tactical. The Thunder Warriors were unstable and that made them careless. The Great Crusade needed diplomats and warriors not just warriors. But your right he should have just let the Thunder Warriors die in an unwinnable battle
The TW were akin to a human Ork horde. I'll wager that while one TM is a match for several astartes, 1000 astartes would severely defeat 1000 TW
I think he was trying to hide something. The Thunder Warriors, under equipped, broke through the Custode lines. They were OP. Imagine legions of these super loyal, super human soldiers. While not the best, a couple of regiments would've helped the crusade for sure, and than they just die.
The Emps either had a really deep trust issue(s), or was hidding something.
Thunder warriors are the hammer .
Astartes are the scalpel. I Cant remember where but u can find parts of that quote in a book cant remember what one tho .
@@Kareszkoma If you read Valdor I think it shows you a lot as to why
Imagine the horror and disgust he must have felt, to see the Corpse-God himself slaughter his brothers, flinging them into the air...
Thunder warriors are tragic figures. In a book called "Dreams of Unity." Despite it all the betrayal, the exile, the absolute degree of time forced into this state one surviving thunder warrior held onto that moment ontop of Mount Ararat thinking back to the achievements he and his brothers had accomplished and what their duty and dedicated actions had lead to "For Unity..."
Valdor audiobook ( they are becoming crazy like berserkers)
Poor guys.
I see emperor as a total sociophat. Everything is a tool, a means to an end. Everything not anymore useful was disregarded (2legions of astartes and thunderwarriors). Perfect being to lead mankind but not without a flaw. Sociopaths tend to not notice human emotions since they lack empathy which emperor actually showed in the final battle against horus. Such interesting character.
@@eemelianttonen8641 dude the emperor know the daemon are coming (all are dead anyway one reason he keep pushing the war effort ) you should learn basic tactics and logistics
It really sucks when a 65 million year old Necron collector cares more about the Thunder Warrior than the empire that created them.
I know we are never going to get it, but I would *LOVE* for GW to release a Unification Wars game one day. An army of Thunder Warriors would be sick, and the Techno-Barbarian hordes would have some pretty epic armies too. Sadly, at best all we can hope for is possibly a book series detailing the dawn of the Imperium.
That story was heart wrenching. Seriously, I almost teared up. _How could he?_
I agree. I have always wanted unification wars series and more info on thunder warriors. Now we know the name of one legion and name of one primarch, but alas, its not much. Although, I think unification wars series of books would sell rather well, so its surprising this still isn't a thing.
Years late but hoi4 has a unification wars mod that’s pretty great
I never thought a i'd cry for a priest chucking monster but I did, that "how could he..." was so well delivered
I can see why the emperor did what he did. It’s not uncommon for governments and revolutions to keep hold of vital keys to take power and purge them after. Because taking power compared to holding it are different. Cut out the less important people despite there work and loyalty. Then keep and add more relevant people for strength and stability.
History repeats.......always. you see it in modern day fiction all the time.....look at Rambo a story about a man made into a weapon and then discarded after the fight.
I used to feel sorrow for the emperor because he was betrayed by his loyal sons until I read the book " the master of mankind" when he has a conversation with a martian over the unconscious body of Angron. Then I discovered just how callous he really is saying he felt nothing for his sons. They were just another tool.
The Emperor and Malcador’s “original sin” as it were. The first act of the Imperium was one of betrayal. I can see the Emperor taking his place in the slaughter. He would not ask his custodes to do that which he would not do himself. He, he would have tears in his eyes. They were too dangerous, too unstable to leave alive in this new world they helped to create, they had to be put down and if that must be, he would do it himself. These men who gave themselves to him, to the dream of unity, he created them, he would end them, they deserved nothing less. Rest easy my noble sons, on your sacrifice will humanity build its empire.
Yes indeed I think many of those who are giving about them would change their mind if only they saw those monsters in battle
Spike .Strat13 “too unstable” yet he let angron turn his legion into crazed berzerkers even before falling to chaos.... emps doesn’t seem to care about instability considering the red thirst and the wolfen curse are also things
Oh and I almost forgot the thousand suns geneflaw that literally turned them into chaos spawn
The Emperor show love for mankind never lol
A foundation of betrayal the heresy was set
There would be no tears
The saddest thing about betrayals is it doesn't come from you're enemies the Thunder warriors serve the Emperor and Terra only to be stabbed in back by the very thing they serve and loyal to.
".....and they all died."
**Laughs in Endryd Haar**
Trigger Warning -
Before the Betrayal of the Thunder Warriors, the 'Ruinous Powers' don't appear to have bothered the Emperor, or tried to stunt his plans. After the Betrayal,... Well... The 'Ruinous Powers' went so far as to kidnap the Primarchs from beneath the Emperor's very nose.
... the souls of the Betrayed warriors, echoing in the Warp, screaming in despair for vengeance, anybody..? Something about every action generating an equal, opposite reaction... '...as Thou sow'est, Thus shalt Thou Reap..." ?
Imma leave this here...
For the record, Dark Angels FTW!
The VERY LOYAL Dark Angels.
Why the fuck did you put a trigger warning
@@AJZulu -
* sympathetic voice *
... y'see, the thing about hanging around with Luther - and no doubt, you were one of the dishevelled wretches that assisted in his escape -, is that it nearly always leads to a bad case of
*BLAM!*
*PlinK, plinK-plinK - Plink....*
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 ironic
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 -
Some folk can't handle the thought of the Emperor being anything less than spotless.
You know. Ecclesiarchy. Sisters of Battle. Certain Space Marine chapters. The Inquisition.
Those sorts of people.
There needs to be some chaos characters that are thunder warriors. Khorne would suit them beautifully. They would be a nice non-demon balance for Primarchs such as Guilliman.
They were designed to resist the taint of Chaos.
@@lawrencegreenwood2646 Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a codax said that close proximity to the Warp made them more powerful?
@@chaoswarriorboi3665 Yes, the Emperor designed them to actually repel the influence of the warp and for those who tried to use there powers against the Thunder Warriors it would only cause a backlash and pain.
@@chaoswarriorboi3665 in one story a psyker who saw them said they glowed with power, a golden light of psychic energy. Only Custodes or the Emperor had a glow of power like it. And of the later Astartes only the first batches the Emperor had a hand in creating could say the same. All designed to repel the power of the warp.
They werent traitor trash like Horus though
"It was a *lie* !"
Basically the Emperor in a nutshell
And all alternatives are even worse. :D
Yep! If the Chaos Gods weren't so vile I'd have built a traitor army all the way. Emps is a shitty parent and hypocritical leader. Now, stand still while I add you to my collection. *greedily rubs metallic hands*
@@simbriantThe Emperor's actions are justified and made moral by that fact.
@@Fifthmiracle the only person who's actions are justified is Horus, the Emperor is no better than the techno-barbarions and got what he deserved during the Heresy.
@Carl Petersson Oh, not the Omnissiah. No, I was referencing Trazyn.
"I am going" Like a true hardened warrior taking that last long walk.
Can't believe it's been 3 years since this audio drop. Been about that long since I have dived deep into the lore of Warhammer 40K. Thank you o'Bald one who speaks. Thank U
The Emperor protects... until you outlive your usefulness.
When you say "How could he" you manage to capture so much emotion, it had me so immersed
Damn, my man i was just reading up on the thunder warriors yesterday. And now you are doing a video of them. this truly is a blessed day for the imperium.
Hmmm must be something in the air, as you are the second person to say that and I was looking them up yesterday and said 'yeah, this is important and the gentle listeners need to know about this wee nugget of lore gold'.
:) :)
Same here, 2 days ago but didn't go too deep.
That’s why the Big E is now a vegetable, it wasn’t Horus who got to him but his own karma...
The emperor himself caused the heresy, are we to believe the primearchs did not know of the thunder warriors fate? The emperor should have put them in stasis and preserve them as good as possible to use them as shock assault troops until they died out. Horus Doubt in his father was caused by malcadore and the emperors actions. The thunder warriors fate was a message towards all forces of the imperium. You are tools to be used and discarded when their service is no longer acquired. The emperor loved his sons, but he also used them. I have no doubt in my mind that horus rebellion would have been inevitable. Either due to chaos, or the emperors betrayal of him and his brothers.
Henrik Sparre
Don’t forget that the emperor had 2 primarchs and two whole damn leagions completely wiped out and made to be forgotten, so its not the only time Emps got his genocide of his own creations on
@@juanpablomontalvo4715 The fact that Angron allowed to be broken, it should already raise some questions.
Not a Skaven Clansmen
He was allowed to stay broken. Allowed him to absolutely ruin his legion
Dooooon’t even get me started on the night lords! Seriously how the hell could the emperor in his most immense wisdom allow Conrad fucking Kurs to control any level of power without serious therapy. Because who would allow a sadist cannibal albino batman asshole control what was essentially a massive terror weapon
@@juanpablomontalvo4715 he was created to be this way and as a loyalist was quite efficient killing 1/3 of the population of a planet to Have the whole system surrender may sound brutal but is better to fight one all planets kill how many and cause mass destruction in the Inferstructure thus crusting more to rebuild and that can take time thus unrest and further civil unrest may lead to a rebellion that repeats the circul until there's eather no one alive to Rebell Ore its brutally forced into obedience
If the emperor really cared about Mankind he would've revealed himself during mankind's technological peak. But no, he waited until it fell into ruin. Why?
The Emperor was not perfect, this again was one of his not so proud moments. He should have let them fight and die for him in the Crusade. Not making anymore of them would have made them a tool he could have used and they would have died for him in the battlefield to the man, an end they would have chosen.
Having their own forces kill them was dishonorable. No loyal warrior deserves this.
There is no forgiveness for that
This is more than being "not perfect" lol...
This was absolute murder/genocide. I hope you never get into a position of power in real life😅
Your narration is simply fantastic. As a fan of VO artists you are truly a force that brings these tales of war to life with great substance and character. I tip my hat to you sir.
Idk why but the thunder warriors are probably my favorite WH40K faction. The poor boys got delt a losing hand, but they're badass.
How much it would please me if GW would reveal a whole planet/solar system at the edge of the galaxy, isolated from the imperium. Functional, prosperous perhaps in some areas, but undoubtedly human ruled and protected by the Proto-Gods of the Astartes, the Thunder Warriors!
The Thunder Warriors of the unification wars, the ones that survived, the ones that adapted, survived, and corrected their genetic flaws. The ones that faced their demons and conquered them!
Please GW, make thunder warriors a faction in 40k! I want minis and have a wallet ready!
See Age Of Sigmar for that one, lol. closest you'll get within warhammer.
Damn, I felt horrible for that thunder warrior… “how could he?”
Yes sirree! I love the old earth, dark age side of things, the techno-barbaric earth and thousands of planet pre-imperium, from feral to elysiumatic. Pre-unification Terra has always intrigued me, any one know of some novels dealing with this theme?
Perturabo got his quirks from somewhere. Like Father like Son.
The emperor created the thunder warriors to fight one of the worst wars of all time and he needed to do it in the shortest time possible - to save the species. The emperor knew mankind was finally killing itself. He made a devils bargain, create the thunder warriors monsters and win the war but what do you do with the monster after it. One of the reasons Warhammer is so great.
"The False Emperor betrayed you, Warrior of Thunder..." the demon hissed, sliding closer to the huge killer. *
The giant of a man lowered his blade, eyes locked on the demon as it neared, a snarl never leaving his face. The grin on the demon's face widened impossibly, filled with what looked to be hundreds of needle sized fangs.
"Betrayed you, killed your brothers, forgot you." The warp spawn continued, inching ever closer. It could almost feel the will of it's opponent slipping. "You should not fight against me, Mighty Warrior, but stand with me and cast down the false Emperor for all his lies!" the demon shivered at the thought, closing it's eyes to savor the feeling.
The Thunder Warrior's eyes, once unfocused with thought, sharpened immediately and darted to the creature, now close enough to touch.
"The Emperor may have betrayed me, but I will never betray Him." He growled, and before the confused demon could react his massive hand was closed around it's throat. The beast screamed and thrashed, curses it had learned through the eons spilling from it's mouth as it tried to scratch and claw it's attacker.
The warrior lifted the demon into the air, and with one mighty thrust sank his sword through it's abdomen. Black blood spilled free and sizzled as it touched the ground. He released the beast's throat and it dropped to it's feet. The warrior kicked out and smashed the bone of a leg, pinning it in place. Grabbing the hilt of his blade with two hands, he gave a mighty roar and pulled the blade straight up, bisecting the hell spawn brutally, the corpse pieces slapping onto the ground.
"For the Unity, and the Emperor." he spat down on the thing's remains, and went on the hunt once again.
I think the characterization of The Emperor is that he does not care about people in an individual level, only about humanity as a species.
To the emperor, humanity as a whole is his "child", whom he wants to protect, but each individual person is nothing but a single cell in mankind's body: ephemeral, replaceable and microscopic in both size and importance.
(By that analogy, Daemons, Xenos and Heretics would be analogous to various biological and psychological pathologies threatening that's metaphorical child's life)
A parent would be willing to cut off their child's whole limb if it meant that the venom of a snake's bite wouldn't reach the child's vital organs, killing them as a result, but dooming the cut off limb to rot away, every cell that makes-up that part of the body fated to die so the others can live on.
That's the reason the Emperor is willing to cause untold destruction and commit massive genocide even against his own people, to him, it's all the necessary actions to guarantee the survival of humanity.
tldr; The Emperor cares about humanity, not people
Phoenix Flame there are lots of ways of looking at the Emperor. Which I why I love the setting so much. It’s vibrant. ;).
@@Baldermort That statement is true both literally and figuratively, since the very physical appearance of The Emperor during the Great Crusade seemed to change according to who saw him at the time
Phoenix Flame exactly. I love the many theories (that I know anyway) about why that is. When feeling Mischievous I pretend he actually looks like Miss Marple. Just for giggles. ;).
@@Baldermort I personally like the story where Corax meets The Emperor, but he almost sees through his psychic glamour, so the image oscillates between the "Average-Looking Man" and "Giant Golden God"
Perhaps the normal man appearance is his actual physical form, while the golden giant is the result of his overwhelming presence in the immaterium influencing his physical appearance.
The larger-than-life aspect of the Master of Mankind could simply be his psychic "radiance" emanating from him, and the different appearances to difference people could be because each mind behaves like a filter through which his light passes through.
This level of writing is what we are missing in cinema today
Beautiful telling of the Thunder Warriors. I had to rewind and listen to it twice. Bravo
The more i learn about 40k, i always come back to this, it feels likes the biggest betrayal in the series, how could he.....
I think that the Emperor, for how much of a manipulative and cold individual, did not exterminate the Thunder Warriors with a light heart. I think it's easy to judge the Emperor from a point of much less responsibility, but God and Tzeench only know the weight of the sins the Emperor had to carry to establish a kingdom as big as a galaxy.
There is no forgiveness for a man who betrayed the ones under his command
They loved him and he betrayed them...
I already knew the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed when he concealed the Webway project from his sons.
I imagine a good few of his sons would very much appreciate knowing about said project, Magnus chief among them.
@@randomcenturion7264 Don't get me started on his poor treatment.
@@abdoul5176 Malcador: So Emps. Should we tell you're incredibly Psychic son about this Psychic project that would require someone who is well versed in Psychic knowledge and ability to make sure no Psychic interference ruins centuries of work?
Emps:...Nah, I'll call him later. Just let him keep thinking I'm marginalizing him after that whole Council of Nikea thing when I took Russ' side, then let him keep his own Librarians.
@@randomcenturion7264 Truly an awful dad and leader.
I think the way the Primaris were put into canon was wrong, should have been just a new armor. But inserted as they are you'd think there would be a Thunder Warrior type moment for the Astartes…. I guess the Imperium is so besieged that they couldn't waste anyone.
Think it has to due with how astartes and thunder warriors were made. If thunder warriors only had gene and muscle enhancements, you can easily see how they're so unstable because our body will actively try to remove everything it registers as foreign and shouldnt be in your body, also they were a rushed creation so the alchemy behind it could be unstable. Astartes however are given entirely new organs, engineered in a way that the body would accept and graft into its own should it has the power to push itself beyond its stress limit to allow the child to become astartes, or die
My favorite video so far. the desperation, the sound of betrayal in your voice, the gravity of the situation. Just amazing
“As far as I know they were put down like dogs”
.... some heretic priest
2+ years later this is still an incredible video
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
God this is unbelievably sad. Imagine a movie of the thunder warriors. All their suffering and triumph,just for them to be killed by the emperor at the end. Id cry my eyes out at the theatre😂
Im into WH40k 20 years now! I didnt know that this was the fate of the Thunder Warriors. I thought they were inferior to Astartes and were gradually replaced by them. DAMN !
I have not often been so moved. The betrayal of the thunder warriors is truely despicable there was so many options to deal with the tw but the emperor chose to stab his loyal soldiers in the back.
From my understanding, they only way anyone could truly survive, is by avoiding not only xenos and chaos, but the emperor as well, the moment you outlive your usefulness, or your death is seen as a worthy sacrifice for his goals, you're done for.
It depresses me that at some point I will have watched all of these videos. Then I will have to wait for new ones, just like everyone else.
I'm always proud of how most of the Thunder Warriors accepted there fate. Some did not, but it was a hard pill to swallow. I'd love to see models and rules for them.
“I want, what they want, and every other guy who came over here and spilled his guts and gave everything he had, wants! For our Emperor to love us as much as we love him! That's what I want!” -Rambo quote.
That quote is a great summery of what most likely went through those minds that got cut down by their brothers in arms and their beloved emperor.
If those theories be believed and not but fabrications of the warp spawn.
Love your voice. This is by far my favorite story. The way you narrate it. Brilliant.
This intro genuinely got me in tears..amazing but hearbreaking retelling..
I’ve just realized how similar the betrayal of the Thunder Warriors on Mt. Ararat was to the later Istvan 3 dropsite massacre. The 30k era has to be one of my favorites in this universe. I hope one day this series will get the visual adaption it deserves.
Was Horus right to fear being replaced? Was Guilliman’s ideal that the Space Marines would become Lords of the Imperium too bright?
Would love to see some models of the Thunder Warriors
*Yes* I remember in one of Boldemort's videos a point was made that the Primarchs were expressly built for war/crusades and I think it was Horus who pondered what the fate of he and his brothers would be when the Emperor's ideals were realized. Being replaced was one of them of course and looking at the Thunder Warriors I can't say I blame him at all.
@@abdoul5176 the primarchs were created as totalitarian autocratic kings, not mere weapons of war. They were not just Generals but rulers of men. They were the Emperor's plan for governnance, not just subjugation. There's no way he would have made them so psychically powerful if that was not the case. The Primarchs and Astartes were his nearly-finished plan.
@@NecrosAcolyte Sorry dude "There's no way he would have made them so psychically powerful if that was not the case." Completely throws me off for some reason. Can you explain further?
Kagji except he kinda did put an organization that rule over them as well called the highlords of terra whom consisted of humans that represented all wings of the imperium, and the highlords have the power to erase the existence of primarchs from imperial records (and some say in hush whispers their lives as well) which was the first thing they did with the missing primarchs and their legions right after appointed, the head of the highlords at that time malcador even choked Horus a primarch for daring to tried speak he erased bothers’ name. Primarchs aren’t royalty they’re tools they bear the emperor genes cause it was the best for the purpose, not because he wanted a ruling caste of immortal warlords, he needed conquerers that have long life spans because of how vast the human was scattered
@@NecrosAcolyte you don't believe the emperor would've killed the Astartes after his plans were realized? Ok...
awesome channel. Glad to a friend let me discover it!
What the Spacemarines have over both Custodies and Thunder Warriors are their brotherhood- discipline. Like a pack of wolfs vs a single Bear, the ability of marines to fight as an unbreakable units with all their genetic superiority makes them so fucking lethal!
@predooo Wow! I think we need to be clear about marines in the current chapter structure vs the legion structure. You are right, that chapters are (somewhat) controlled by the high lords and monitored by the inquisition, but the Custodies was also under strict laws about their operational limits, they just made those limits themselfs.
Back in Legion time, the marines was almost completely independent lead by their primarchs, who had massiv authority and answered only to the Emperor and later Horus. Those Legions had serious intelligence networks, and the Alpha legion are so superior to the Custodies in spycraft, that it is almost a joke.
About being bound by the Codex; Some chapters follow it very strict, but others like the Space Wolves don't really care about it. And although each chapter comes from a specific legion and therefore has a preference for a specific form of War, they are perfectly capable of fighting in other ways. The Fists can attack, The Blood angels can defend and so forth.
Finally you talk about freethinking. Custodies are the least human of all the post humans. They are the least emotional and least individual of all. Every singel marines have more individual thoughts and personality then a custodies. I am not saying, that they are robots, but they can't even dream of disobeying an order.
@predooo I am not really sure about your first points about chapters in current 40k vs 30k. Chapters are small elite attack teams with solid logical and tech support. Legions was galaxy conquering armies with hole sectors dedicated to their upkeep. Guillimans crusade in 40k is the first large scale crusade-era deployment of marines in a legion-like way, but it was allways meant to be a temporary system. Now that the crusade is over, he has split his forces back up into the chapter structure. I personally think the hole chapter reform back after the Heresy war was a mistake, and that only Legions could have won the long war, but that is only on the macro level. The individual marines in 40k fights just as well as they did in 30k, but less free and politically independent. That is the tradeoff, Guillimans reforms made. To prevent the post humans from ruling, they was split up.
About tactics. Yes sometimes both the old legions and the current chapters fight in less then logical ways, but the example you use is not representable. Dorn was depressed and near suicidal, and wanted to break his own legion against Perturabo's trap. The Iron cage was the willing breaking of the 7th legion, not just stupidity.
Custodes also have criticised for their lack of direct action. They have not been totally absent from the wider galaxy for 10.000 years, but mostly they have remained on terra. The average marine chapters marines have seen more combat and wars then most current Custodes. Yes, Custodes are a ridiculously powerful force, but they are a very specific weapon. They defend the Emperor's person, not the imperium. The reason terra still stands today is not the doing of the final guardians, but the frontline warriors of the Guard, Marines and forces of Mars.
There was so much emotion in that first half! I felt the betrayal, the incredulity, and bitterness in the words. Well done, sir!
That hit me in the feels.
Constantin Valdor made this clear to Ushatan. The Thunder Warriors were designed to a purpose: to conquer Terra. They were designed to the conditions on Terra, the threat, the duration. Once Terra was unified, the Thunder Warriors were not equipped to handle the next stage.
The real question I have is why the Emperor felt that he had to destroy the Thunder Warriors rather than simply let them hang around until they expired. As was said, they were unstable. Many just died from genetic faults, or went psycho and had to be put down.
It is such a damming statement about the early Imperium, that the top law keeper of the first Highlords sought to take Constantin Valdor into custody for the crime of exterminating the Thunder Warriors. And Valdor simply states, that he and by proxy the Emperor is above any Law!
This more so than anything else I’ve encountered really illustrates how sad the fate of the thunder warriors is. It doesn’t get a lot of attention, but they were betrayed by the King they loved and it never made sense to them. I find it bestirring. Thank you for such incredible content!