I think this is actually one of the most level-headed approaches to a GOAT tier list; thinking of it from the point of view of if the game ended right now who would be considered the best of all time. I definitely agree that older players tender to get artificially bumped up higher on other lists because people don’t consider they were strong in a time of weaker competition etc (although obviously this is hard thing to compare). Think it would be cool to see you discuss with Chillin.
When you think of GOAT you can't say right now who's winning. Example Michael Jordan the here and now doesn't dismissed what previously people did. It's all his opinions with no facts if we go by facts let's look at records. Ken Isai M2k/dominated every smash game except ultimate Armada/ definitely better then hbox If you want facts look up tournament results and head to head matchups. GOAT imo means most dominate in his/her era
@@smoothviper9687 armada is definitely not definitely better than hbox. Hbox at this point has been best in the world for 3 years undisputed which is longer than armada.
@@sujetonormal3399 Disagree leffen clearly caught up and proved that peach almost just loses to fox, it got to a point where armada only play fox against him accept on FD.
haven't finished the video but i 100% agree with you on why the 1st gen aren't around. they didn't go into retirement, they got retired by the new kids :/
After melee is dead and people are looking back on the best players they will compare armadas reign with the inevitable reign of Zain. If you ask me, if Zain can be number one for only 2 years but during this era he could be the goat just because of how hard it is now
Maybe if Zain is hyper focused during that set while Armada is already a bit tired, similar to M2Ks summit win. On an average day Armada would mop the floor with Zain and this is no disrespect, we're talking about Armada after all
@@Killerbee_McTitties Nah man, Zain has gotten a lot better since their early sets. He's a beast against peach and fox, armada would struggle for sure.
@@wickedsamurai3323 actually he's not that good against peach at all, well that's relative i guess, he's very good against peach, but he's a ways off top top level, he's about as good as pewpewu against peach, a long way off from 2018 m2k or even pp at his best, unless he's somehow gotten way better since the last few times i've seen him play peaches which is like llod and trif, which i doubt because i haven't seen him practice against a high level peach
I'm always happy to see Axe getting the love and respect he deserves. I feel totally ok with him being top 10 right now and I'm expecting to see him climbing to top 5 in the future.
PPMD was the last god and hasn’t been one of the greatest since January 2015. I love PP and his contributions to the game, but it’s been too long. So many other names keeping up at that level now.
LMAO honestly when I saw the thumbnail I was sooo confused when I saw Zain/Leffen>Mango and Wobbles top 10 but this is the best clickbait I've ever witnessed lmaoooo That fake list is the easiest way to get Mang0 and Armada pissed haha
There is so much I could argue in this video, but the one that makes sense is Zain > Ken. Ken dominated at #1 in the world for years and years, being dominant in the first 2 eras, still able to compete in the 3rd generation. Zain is a recent player who has not proved himself nearly enough to be as goated as Ken.
The reason most people rank Ken in the top 3 of all-time is because people also take into account how long they were dominant. If you look at the criteria for Pikachu942's list (the one you were referring to). You more took a perspective of if the game ended right now, who would be the best. This isn't an extremely bad idea for a criteria but many people would use recency bias as the meta obviously developed over time. You have a unique perspective on the scene though.
The case for Ken (which is the real controversial part of this list imo...) I think he should get a pass on the longevity argument, and should at least be in the top 10, if not top 5. The main reason being is there was little incentive for him to continue competing at a high level. Melee entered the dark ages. Compare him to any of the other 1st gen and 2nd gen (Mew2King's the only 2nd-genner to become a top player) he DID have longevity. When he was trying, he was the best or close to it. He's the king of smash, pretty much the star of the doc and the whole early era of smash. I'm 33, up there in age with some of the old-timers. idk, I just think it's totally understandable for him to want to move onto other things and not have to prove himself in the post-Brawl/doc world. Having him outside of the top 10 doesn't do justice at all for what he did to smash and he inspired a lot of people to want to get better and take the game seriously. Love you Hugs, that's just my take and I think he deserves a high spot on a legacy list.
The problem with this argument is that his last 6 majors he attended from 06-07 he placed 5,7,3,4,1,7. This was DURING the MLG era, so the dark ages did not happen yet and he already fell off.
@@skozy3 "Ken possesses the highest major tournament win-to-loss ratio of any Super Smash Bros. Melee player from 2003 to 2007." He won EVO 2007. The placings you mention still average within top 5, and they were during the period Melee began its decline. It's not falling off when you're arguably the best player of 2007 as a whole. It doesn't make sense how a player can dominate for 4-5 years and not even make a top 10 legacy list... the longevity is there, unless you choose to look past it.
I think Hugs bring this argument about : "His era of dominance was not the hardest one but the easiest one" Players currently are so good right now that even "unranked" players can go back in time and would destroy all Gen1-Gen2 players. Then again, what Hugs is trying to point out is that if he never quit and stayed to challenge the Gen 3 and Gen 4 players, perhaps he might be rank Top 10 by "Hugs standards". Personally for me, Ken pioneer Marth to the very top, he should be at least in the Top 10. It took 4-5 years for people to catch up to him !
Henry Returns yes, and I’m aware of that argument... it’s jut an unfair standard imo. In sports newer players could go back and dominate older players because of better conditioning, strategy, etc. Obv newer tech skill didn’t exist during Ken’s reign. Respect to players that persist through different eras. But an argument could be made it wasn’t easier then because no one had access to newer tech skill... ken found his own way in a different time. Imo an arbitrary barrier is being put up where Ken backed off from the game. It shouldn’t take away from all he accomplished, and like you said being a pioneer for Marth. Like... his combos were sick at the time, it’s not like he was button-mashing his way to victory. Just respectfully disagree for how some of these other players outrank him on a “legacy” list.
@@nathanieldonley5502 While Ken was innovative and dominated the very early era, he was definitely not the best player of 2007 as a whole. That honor belongs to M2K and there is very little evidence to support Ken. Ken's dominance was from 2003-2006, but you only mention 2007. Anyway, it can make sense to not have him top 10 for a number of reasons. Most importantly, the competition he faced during his early years was simply not as strong. When tougher competition started to come around his dominance ended. It would be relatively easy to chalk it off to having weaker competition. Also, if the game had been going on for hundreds of years then a 4-5 year span would not be so impressive, but mostly the number of years don't matter as much as the number of tournaments and the competition at those tournaments.
How tf is Chillin supposed to be above SFAT, westballz, hax, amsa, Wizzy, lucky and S2J Also captain jack seems too high and I don't even know who jman is P.s. I love how Isai is on here, he's always been my favourite player... Edit: wow u took him off and put yourself above him fml
I feel like Axe's longevity really gets disrespected. dude has been a top 10ish player since 2010. Mang0, HBox and M2K are literally the only other 3 players who can say that. Especially Plup and Chu over him, I'm not sure I agree with those.
@@jijmotorp3079 i said "top 10ish" which is entirely accurate. in the smash history lists they did he was an HM for both 2010 and 2012, and ranked 12th in 2011. that's the definition of 'top 10ish'. also in 2009 he had already beaten Jman and PPMD.
Europe didn't record its early smash tournament records nearly as well as America did, so unfortunately it makes it kind of hard to gauge what level players from there were at during eras like gen 1 and 2, and exactly how dominant certain players were in their primes at the time. It's the same sort of thing with regions like Japan, which we KNOW were super strong, but have very little hard evidence for HOW strong. Players like EK for example are talked about as being incredibly dominant in Europe during their time, but very few recordings or even tournament results survive from his era, so how does one measure what is essentially just a legend in Europe to the cold hard data of the legends in the US? That's why most people often place Armada's entrance into the scene at gen 3, since that was around when his results in Europe began to be recorded (2007) and when he finally came to the US and began competing with and beating the players who statistically people KNEW were good (2009). I have been playing melee since 2016, but if I became a top player suddenly this year (2020) no one would consider me a 2016 era player, cause let's be honest, no one cares about the tournaments I entered back then. Almost none of them are recorded or archived and didn't have any impact on the scene at large. Same thing goes for Armada's 2005 & 2006 tournaments, which aren't recorded anywhere. I know Armada likes to throw around that he is a Mew2king era player, but it took him longer (3-4.5 years) than M2K to make an impact on the scene at large, and 2 of those years are arguably completely inconsequential. wall of text yay, lol
You can't call this a legacy list and put Zain at number 10, he just hasn't been around long enough to argue that. I genuinely think he has what it takes to reach top 3 all time, but not only does he not have the full and broad experience considering he's only really been popping off for a bit less than 3 years, his reign has also been in a relatively dry era for the game with so many top players falling off. I think Zain needs more experience going up against some truly amazing players to solidify himself as a top 10 player. I'll say that he does have some impressive wins such as Wizzy in his prime, Hbox in the current era, Plup, etc., but the roster of good players just isn't the same such as how Mang0 and M2k haven't been trying during pretty much the entirety of Zain's prominence, Crush quit, you rarely see sfat and pewpewu, etc. I think if Zain is able to beat Axe at least like 3 times I'd be slightly more convinced, but not yet.
1. Bobby Scar (love the commentary) 2. Ken (he played the game at one point) 3. Dave (dude in my neighborhood, plays young link and i can’t beat him) 4. Armada 5. Professor Pro
@Frost XTMang0 won birthday bash which was like 7 months ago but I feel like his results are way too inconsistent nowadays to have a solid argument to be over Hbox or Armada.
My 2 friends (linksterjake and grabfest bowser) played against Ken in doubles. And they actually took 4 stocks from Ken in a match, but couldn't beat isai.
Solid list (the real one). I don't think an era without Armada can be considered the hardest. Maybe once offline tournaments start happening again, and with Zain at his current inzane level, and Mango and Leffen both playing at their best again, then maybe it can be considered a new hardest era and a true test for Hbox. That said, besides the Armada stats that convinced you he's #1 all time, there's several more that just add to the argument. IMO his GOAT status is so strong it's set in stone.
Damn I can't not keep commenting on the voodoo Ranger sponsor. Thats the hypest sponsor of all smashers period. I know BTS has weed maps but that's literally just a tech company riding on the shoulders of weed.
I think it would be very interesting if you made a list ranking the top players not on legacy, but just the pure skill of their peak. And I don't mean like their peak in terms of their era, but ignoring time and looking at who truly was the best given a 2020 lens (which obviously gives bias to recent years since we're much better at the game now/the gen 1 people would NOT be included). I guess a good question that would be answered by that list would be: how many people have surpassed Armada's peak skill level in current day? (It's not the sole reason to do the list, but an example of what to consider when making it)
I feel like HBox should be given some credit because he thrived in an area in an era where the most common character he ran into was his most difficult matchup, and he was still #1
Does he explain why PPMD isn't on here? I actually think people like Amsa and (even) people like say Marth1 / Ryuto138 / Syrox for Technical Developments
@@nobody-pq5cw Skillwise it's the hardest. Competitive wise its not. A lot of the top players aren't competiting seriously or quitted the game which led to the best players winning more consistently
The game is absolutely harder even with armada gone. I was good enough to make it to bracket at larger events between 2010-2015 but the average level of the player base is astronomically higher than it was during my prime lol.
I mean hax has definitely left a bigger impact on the game than shroomed. You think of melee, you think of hax WAY before you think about shroomed. He was also top 10 for a while too, is top 10 NOW, runs tournaments, produces video content, produced his own controller, and innovated a radically different style of play for the best character in the game.
Hax definitely has left the bigger legacy, but if you look at results alone it is hard to argue with Shoomed's legacy too. Hax has a legacy of personality and technology, but Shroomed has a legacy of results that people sleep on. Hax = Eric Lindros & Shroomed = Ron Francis tbh I would still place Hax above Shroomed tho if it came down to it. Hax has got sick results in his career too.
I feel like maybe a year or two hbox will have it but mango sounds like he won't stop for a while so both of them have the potential to be 1 and 2 idk order if armada comes back then thats a whole can of worms
How that head to head gonna matter when it’s counting their eaaaarliest matches 😩 come on hugs I’ve have a cup signed by you that I keep in my closet lmao
I know you weren’t 100% serious when you asked what has the 1st gen done, but I don’t think it’s about what they’ve done, more what they STARTED. Also when you said Azen and ken were scared of the new gen coming, yeah that may be true, but you also have to remember they were getting older and that was a time melee was NOT a career. Not everyone had the guts to keep going like chillin and you and even m2k. No one knew melee would be what it turned out to be. If they were 12-14 years old in 2007, you don’t think they would’ve adapted to the meta like the later generation did when they started with melee? Don’t get me wrong, I think there are much much better players now(obviously,) but their spot in the top 20 all time is kind of solidified for a LONG time.
That head to head vs Armada is strong, but Armada quit when Hbox was really starting his peak. That head to head would have flipped if Armada stuck around. He was gassed out and Hbox has had the endurance to stay #1 for record time, and it started before Armada quit.
No way its the hardest level of competition ever without all the gods. Even some top players like plup and leffen aren't taking the game that seriously right now. Wizzy is barely competing. Right now its Zain vs Hbox with some not consistent mango performances. The era with the rise of leffen, the end of ppmd and the peak of armada is the strongest era ever.
I like Hugs putting Mango under HBox, I think it's something a lot of people would find absurd but there's a valid argument. With that said, Zain above Ken is comical. Zain is an incredible player but I don't know if he's even above Wizzy. Give him a couple years and he could be top 10, but I don't think he has a supermajor win, just doesn't have that many top 8s.
The Hax$ disrespect. Unbelievable. Mans made a new fucking controller just so he and others with hand problems could continue playing, then rose back up. You missed, Hugo.
Honestly if u consider the fact that armada isnt competing then u can say that its actually not the hardest era for hbox. If armada was still around it would be a lot harder for hbox to claim no1. While armada had claimed no1 many times with all the best players active. Especially since armada had a favorable recors vs hbox
NGL I actually skipped all the way to the end because I wanted to see the list and saw the fake list. I was so confused and was like "oh god i gotta see how he justifies this. Only to find out when i went back to the beginning that it was fake. WP Hugs86 WP
hugs has been playing melee since before sakurai was born
I mean he is 86 years old
I was an infant when he was playing
Hugs has been playing since the begining of Japan
i guess it's kinda randomly asking but do anyone know a good site to stream newly released tv shows online ?
1. alex19
2. blur
3.armada
4.the dk that beat hugs in pools
5.hbox
6.david the bowser guy
7. salem
8.ludwig
9. bob scar
10. borp
Hbox and armada? Hot takes imo. I think chillindude and Leffen's ego should replace them
2. Prime Blur
everyone knows bobby should be nr 5 ;)
I cant stop laughing at "the dk that beat hugs in pools" lmao
No fucking way David the bowser guy is better than bob scar this list is so shit
Armada will be pissed off when he sees that he's in the third gen 😄
He started 1 day b4 m2k ,
His placements started as when the player began, but turned into when they got very notable
@@Crash_Bash_4ever yeah but he didn't compete with the big boy's til genesis
I think this is actually one of the most level-headed approaches to a GOAT tier list; thinking of it from the point of view of if the game ended right now who would be considered the best of all time.
I definitely agree that older players tender to get artificially bumped up higher on other lists because people don’t consider they were strong in a time of weaker competition etc (although obviously this is hard thing to compare).
Think it would be cool to see you discuss with Chillin.
hugo please get chillins input make a combined list
When you think of GOAT you can't say right now who's winning. Example Michael Jordan the here and now doesn't dismissed what previously people did. It's all his opinions with no facts if we go by facts let's look at records.
Ken
Isai
M2k/dominated every smash game except ultimate
Armada/ definitely better then hbox
If you want facts look up tournament results and head to head matchups.
GOAT imo means most dominate in his/her era
@@smoothviper9687 armada is definitely not definitely better than hbox. Hbox at this point has been best in the world for 3 years undisputed which is longer than armada.
@@thirstyfajita4115 and armada for 10 years hasn't dropped below 5th
Isai was the one that we will never get to know how high he could climb and thats a damn shame
I got baited from Twitter. I'm pissed that it worked.
Hugs has it out for armada because he's always making fun of his charge shots
20:27 the final list :)
lol troll
Scar’s dad should be above Mew2King
No blur?
Blur got his ass beat by Ludwig. LOL
You can’t say the hardest era is the current era IMO because Armada was such a gatekeeper
Yeah armada was a level beyond of everyone the only other was hungrybox
Armada retired at the end of 2018
Hungrybox is the new gatekeeper though.
@@sujetonormal3399 Disagree leffen clearly caught up and proved that peach almost just loses to fox, it got to a point where armada only play fox against him accept on FD.
Tbh might be a little of a hot take but even armada's fox I don't think beats leffens, especially Leffen's fox now
You played tf outta me with that thumbnail. The end list is very reasonable. I love how at the end you formulate the thumbnail it was super funny.
haven't finished the video but i 100% agree with you on why the 1st gen aren't around. they didn't go into retirement, they got retired by the new kids :/
pinche wei, you're smoking rocks if you don't think PPMD qualifies for top 20. his apex 2014 run ALONE like...
meat555555555 5 PP wasn’t listed as 1st gen bruh
Fernando Gomez pp's not in the final list was my point,
Same with Armada
@@canIeaturcarrots except that Armada still spanks everyone when he comes over to chill and play friendlies
love that you're staying real
Wish we'd see Zain Armada. Hard to stack up Zain among the rest when he's the only one to not really face Armada.
After melee is dead and people are looking back on the best players they will compare armadas reign with the inevitable reign of Zain. If you ask me, if Zain can be number one for only 2 years but during this era he could be the goat just because of how hard it is now
Maybe if Zain is hyper focused during that set while Armada is already a bit tired, similar to M2Ks summit win.
On an average day Armada would mop the floor with Zain and this is no disrespect, we're talking about Armada after all
@@Killerbee_McTitties Nah man, Zain has gotten a lot better since their early sets. He's a beast against peach and fox, armada would struggle for sure.
Armada could cile back rn with no practice and he'd beat current zain imo
@@wickedsamurai3323 actually he's not that good against peach at all, well that's relative i guess, he's very good against peach, but he's a ways off top top level, he's about as good as pewpewu against peach, a long way off from 2018 m2k or even pp at his best, unless he's somehow gotten way better since the last few times i've seen him play peaches which is like llod and trif, which i doubt because i haven't seen him practice against a high level peach
I'm always happy to see Axe getting the love and respect he deserves. I feel totally ok with him being top 10 right now and I'm expecting to see him climbing to top 5 in the future.
We need a 2022 version of this list
The thumbnail list got me lmfao
PPMD would like a word
17:56 - He’s on the tierlist at #6
PPMD was the last god and hasn’t been one of the greatest since January 2015. I love PP and his contributions to the game, but it’s been too long. So many other names keeping up at that level now.
Ty lol
@@Killopotamus don't sleep
@@Killopotamus I agree but tbh its january 2016. 5th at genesis 3.
Didn't you already do like an hour long version of this wirh Blur?
LMAO honestly when I saw the thumbnail I was sooo confused when I saw Zain/Leffen>Mango and Wobbles top 10 but this is the best clickbait I've ever witnessed lmaoooo
That fake list is the easiest way to get Mang0 and Armada pissed haha
Skip to 20:27 for full list :)
Nice.
There is so much I could argue in this video, but the one that makes sense is Zain > Ken. Ken dominated at #1 in the world for years and years, being dominant in the first 2 eras, still able to compete in the 3rd generation. Zain is a recent player who has not proved himself nearly enough to be as goated as Ken.
You are right!
The reason most people rank Ken in the top 3 of all-time is because people also take into account how long they were dominant. If you look at the criteria for Pikachu942's list (the one you were referring to). You more took a perspective of if the game ended right now, who would be the best. This isn't an extremely bad idea for a criteria but many people would use recency bias as the meta obviously developed over time. You have a unique perspective on the scene though.
This was an amazing stream.
Can’t wait for Armands reaction to tjis
my man leffen broke into the 5 gods, he did it
LOL the thumbnail, you actually did it
It’s Zain’s world, we’re just living in it
Agreed. Hopefully Hugs revisits this in a year. I think Zain will be higher on the list(6ish?) And I think he will bump Hbox to the #1 slot.
The case for Ken (which is the real controversial part of this list imo...) I think he should get a pass on the longevity argument, and should at least be in the top 10, if not top 5. The main reason being is there was little incentive for him to continue competing at a high level. Melee entered the dark ages. Compare him to any of the other 1st gen and 2nd gen (Mew2King's the only 2nd-genner to become a top player) he DID have longevity. When he was trying, he was the best or close to it. He's the king of smash, pretty much the star of the doc and the whole early era of smash. I'm 33, up there in age with some of the old-timers. idk, I just think it's totally understandable for him to want to move onto other things and not have to prove himself in the post-Brawl/doc world. Having him outside of the top 10 doesn't do justice at all for what he did to smash and he inspired a lot of people to want to get better and take the game seriously. Love you Hugs, that's just my take and I think he deserves a high spot on a legacy list.
The problem with this argument is that his last 6 majors he attended from 06-07 he placed 5,7,3,4,1,7. This was DURING the MLG era, so the dark ages did not happen yet and he already fell off.
@@skozy3 "Ken possesses the highest major tournament win-to-loss ratio of any Super Smash Bros. Melee player from 2003 to 2007." He won EVO 2007. The placings you mention still average within top 5, and they were during the period Melee began its decline. It's not falling off when you're arguably the best player of 2007 as a whole. It doesn't make sense how a player can dominate for 4-5 years and not even make a top 10 legacy list... the longevity is there, unless you choose to look past it.
I think Hugs bring this argument about : "His era of dominance was not the hardest one but the easiest one"
Players currently are so good right now that even "unranked" players can go back in time and would destroy all Gen1-Gen2 players.
Then again, what Hugs is trying to point out is that if he never quit and stayed to challenge the Gen 3 and Gen 4 players, perhaps he might be rank Top 10 by "Hugs standards".
Personally for me, Ken pioneer Marth to the very top, he should be at least in the Top 10. It took 4-5 years for people to catch up to him !
Henry Returns yes, and I’m aware of that argument... it’s jut an unfair standard imo. In sports newer players could go back and dominate older players because of better conditioning, strategy, etc. Obv newer tech skill didn’t exist during Ken’s reign. Respect to players that persist through different eras. But an argument could be made it wasn’t easier then because no one had access to newer tech skill... ken found his own way in a different time. Imo an arbitrary barrier is being put up where Ken backed off from the game. It shouldn’t take away from all he accomplished, and like you said being a pioneer for Marth. Like... his combos were sick at the time, it’s not like he was button-mashing his way to victory. Just respectfully disagree for how some of these other players outrank him on a “legacy” list.
@@nathanieldonley5502 While Ken was innovative and dominated the very early era, he was definitely not the best player of 2007 as a whole. That honor belongs to M2K and there is very little evidence to support Ken. Ken's dominance was from 2003-2006, but you only mention 2007. Anyway, it can make sense to not have him top 10 for a number of reasons. Most importantly, the competition he faced during his early years was simply not as strong. When tougher competition started to come around his dominance ended. It would be relatively easy to chalk it off to having weaker competition. Also, if the game had been going on for hundreds of years then a 4-5 year span would not be so impressive, but mostly the number of years don't matter as much as the number of tournaments and the competition at those tournaments.
How tf is Chillin supposed to be above SFAT, westballz, hax, amsa, Wizzy, lucky and S2J
Also captain jack seems too high and I don't even know who jman is
P.s. I love how Isai is on here, he's always been my favourite player... Edit: wow u took him off and put yourself above him fml
Isai always going to be the best doubles player of all time
SpikeyEman Jman was a 3rd Gen Fox Who was mentored by DJ Nintendo lmao. He had some pretty solid results during the God Era.
Surprised there were no mentions of Milk and Hat.
chillin is hard carried by his longevity and he still has solid results in the modern era unlike a lot of old school players
chillin has a 15 years career with a lot of top 8. Arguably sometimes top 10
The biggest plot twist would have been him putting himself at #1 at the end.
Where's Ryan Ford in the generation list?
Gonna be honest. This is a solid list! Good job!
I feel like Axe's longevity really gets disrespected. dude has been a top 10ish player since 2010. Mang0, HBox and M2K are literally the only other 3 players who can say that. Especially Plup and Chu over him, I'm not sure I agree with those.
Armada also. He only did not come to America before 08.
João Pedro Queiroz Grossi Armada is retired that’s why I didn’t include him.
During 2010-2012 era, Axe was barely top 10 or top 15
@@jijmotorp3079 i said "top 10ish" which is entirely accurate. in the smash history lists they did he was an HM for both 2010 and 2012, and ranked 12th in 2011. that's the definition of 'top 10ish'. also in 2009 he had already beaten Jman and PPMD.
wobbles deserved top 20 on the actual list
You excluded prime blur???
didn't plup and wizzy started playing after the doc?
mew2king and armada are early 2005
If i remember correctly , didn't Armada start competing on the same day as Mewking? That would make him Gen 2!
Europe didn't record its early smash tournament records nearly as well as America did, so unfortunately it makes it kind of hard to gauge what level players from there were at during eras like gen 1 and 2, and exactly how dominant certain players were in their primes at the time. It's the same sort of thing with regions like Japan, which we KNOW were super strong, but have very little hard evidence for HOW strong.
Players like EK for example are talked about as being incredibly dominant in Europe during their time, but very few recordings or even tournament results survive from his era, so how does one measure what is essentially just a legend in Europe to the cold hard data of the legends in the US? That's why most people often place Armada's entrance into the scene at gen 3, since that was around when his results in Europe began to be recorded (2007) and when he finally came to the US and began competing with and beating the players who statistically people KNEW were good (2009).
I have been playing melee since 2016, but if I became a top player suddenly this year (2020) no one would consider me a 2016 era player, cause let's be honest, no one cares about the tournaments I entered back then. Almost none of them are recorded or archived and didn't have any impact on the scene at large. Same thing goes for Armada's 2005 & 2006 tournaments, which aren't recorded anywhere. I know Armada likes to throw around that he is a Mew2king era player, but it took him longer (3-4.5 years) than M2K to make an impact on the scene at large, and 2 of those years are arguably completely inconsequential.
wall of text yay, lol
@@ピカリFritzyBeat If you ever become the GOAT I'm sure some people will reasonably consider your 'gen' to have begun in 2016.
There's something to be said about players who innovated the playstyles for their character. Pretty cool approach to this list!!
You can't call this a legacy list and put Zain at number 10, he just hasn't been around long enough to argue that. I genuinely think he has what it takes to reach top 3 all time, but not only does he not have the full and broad experience considering he's only really been popping off for a bit less than 3 years, his reign has also been in a relatively dry era for the game with so many top players falling off. I think Zain needs more experience going up against some truly amazing players to solidify himself as a top 10 player. I'll say that he does have some impressive wins such as Wizzy in his prime, Hbox in the current era, Plup, etc., but the roster of good players just isn't the same such as how Mang0 and M2k haven't been trying during pretty much the entirety of Zain's prominence, Crush quit, you rarely see sfat and pewpewu, etc. I think if Zain is able to beat Axe at least like 3 times I'd be slightly more convinced, but not yet.
1. Bobby Scar (love the commentary)
2. Ken (he played the game at one point)
3. Dave (dude in my neighborhood, plays young link and i can’t beat him)
4. Armada
5. Professor Pro
I mean, how would that head to head look if armada still played?
@Frost XTMang0 won birthday bash which was like 7 months ago but I feel like his results are way too inconsistent nowadays to have a solid argument to be over Hbox or Armada.
"Mother Fuckers, I've been the greatness!" -Hugs86
I can't WAIT to see Armada's reaction video
He is gonna spend half an hour talking about how he is better than everyone else.
My 2 friends (linksterjake and grabfest bowser) played against Ken in doubles. And they actually took 4 stocks from Ken in a match, but couldn't beat isai.
Cool!!!
Bruh you put yourself and Azen and S2J but no PPMD!?!?!?
Did you guys not watch the video? Look at 17:56 that’s his real list lmao
Solid list (the real one). I don't think an era without Armada can be considered the hardest. Maybe once offline tournaments start happening again, and with Zain at his current inzane level, and Mango and Leffen both playing at their best again, then maybe it can be considered a new hardest era and a true test for Hbox.
That said, besides the Armada stats that convinced you he's #1 all time, there's several more that just add to the argument. IMO his GOAT status is so strong it's set in stone.
Snubbing Shroomed, Fly Amanita, Wobbles, probably more all for some old man nostalgia of back before people understood the game
Not gonna lie, HugS86 is spitting straight facts rn.
Damn I can't not keep commenting on the voodoo Ranger sponsor. Thats the hypest sponsor of all smashers period. I know BTS has weed maps but that's literally just a tech company riding on the shoulders of weed.
Hugs has been playing longer than I have been alive
No fucking way lmao
I think it would be very interesting if you made a list ranking the top players not on legacy, but just the pure skill of their peak. And I don't mean like their peak in terms of their era, but ignoring time and looking at who truly was the best given a 2020 lens (which obviously gives bias to recent years since we're much better at the game now/the gen 1 people would NOT be included).
I guess a good question that would be answered by that list would be: how many people have surpassed Armada's peak skill level in current day? (It's not the sole reason to do the list, but an example of what to consider when making it)
Thanks Hungo
Y'all remember when hbox top8d Genesis black with fox? Pepperidge farms remembers
Drephens been around since TG series and is still on the sticks competing.
The last 2 minutes were gold
hugs I don't know what you're going to say about your list but I really like your sixers shirt
Hugo is still mad that Ken’s little sister beat him
Long as Bobby Scar is on the list
Drephen?
Genuine question for HugS. If you have Leffen in top five then do you think he's the sixth god of melee?
He's not a god he's a god slayer
I feel like HBox should be given some credit because he thrived in an area in an era where the most common character he ran into was his most difficult matchup, and he was still #1
Does he explain why PPMD isn't on here? I actually think people like Amsa and (even) people like say Marth1 / Ryuto138 / Syrox for Technical Developments
Listen bro, I’ve never lost to anyone in pgr 100 I’m probably the goat
Can we get a hug v chillin money match lol
That thumbnail makes me feel like I'm reading a Justin Wong tier list.
You can’t say the current era is the hardest. Armada isn’t around
the game is still evolving its only natural that the current time is the hardest.
the entire skill curve increased, top 100 overall is much better this year than the previous
@@nobody-pq5cw Skillwise it's the hardest. Competitive wise its not. A lot of the top players aren't competiting seriously or quitted the game which led to the best players winning more consistently
The game is absolutely harder even with armada gone. I was good enough to make it to bracket at larger events between 2010-2015 but the average level of the player base is astronomically higher than it was during my prime lol.
19:16 justice for PPMD at 7th
make that chillin list
I'll say it. Zain has GOAT potential. It's at least 8 years away, but he could pull it off. He's the perfect marth, and still somehow getting better
Hax is palying the gaem???
imagine arguing haxs legacy < shroomed lmao
Honestly his hottest take of this entire video
he right
he's arguing legacy as a competitor, not a meme lord
I mean hax has definitely left a bigger impact on the game than shroomed. You think of melee, you think of hax WAY before you think about shroomed. He was also top 10 for a while too, is top 10 NOW, runs tournaments, produces video content, produced his own controller, and innovated a radically different style of play for the best character in the game.
Hax definitely has left the bigger legacy, but if you look at results alone it is hard to argue with Shoomed's legacy too.
Hax has a legacy of personality and technology, but Shroomed has a legacy of results that people sleep on.
Hax = Eric Lindros & Shroomed = Ron Francis
tbh I would still place Hax above Shroomed tho if it came down to it. Hax has got sick results in his career too.
I feel like maybe a year or two hbox will have it but mango sounds like he won't stop for a while so both of them have the potential to be 1 and 2 idk order if armada comes back then thats a whole can of worms
Nice vid
People want to talk about new kids retiring gen 1, but lets be honest Swedish retired Armada
Okay zain above wizzy ken sfat and a zen is nuts he just got super good recently
How that head to head gonna matter when it’s counting their eaaaarliest matches 😩 come on hugs I’ve have a cup signed by you that I keep in my closet lmao
The face of Melee will always be Fox, but winners pick pink floaties
Here is the final list for those who don't have time.
th-cam.com/video/3O6-ARB8488/w-d-xo.html
blur should’ve had the 20th spot
if the game ended today MANGO would be the undisputed GOAT in my eyes
Give me one legitimate argument for mango being higher than armada or hungrybox
@@Andy-th6qs "HE IS THE SICKEST PLAYER TO WATCH!! HE HAS TO BE THE GOAT!!"
Literally the melee community in a nutshell.
Motion Droplets that's all I need
I know you weren’t 100% serious when you asked what has the 1st gen done, but I don’t think it’s about what they’ve done, more what they STARTED. Also when you said Azen and ken were scared of the new gen coming, yeah that may be true, but you also have to remember they were getting older and that was a time melee was NOT a career. Not everyone had the guts to keep going like chillin and you and even m2k. No one knew melee would be what it turned out to be. If they were 12-14 years old in 2007, you don’t think they would’ve adapted to the meta like the later generation did when they started with melee? Don’t get me wrong, I think there are much much better players now(obviously,) but their spot in the top 20 all time is kind of solidified for a LONG time.
Mang0 m2k interms of legacy are 1 and 2
Can’t wait for Armada to react to this
8:30 ya you were there but you never beat him though :^)
That head to head vs Armada is strong, but Armada quit when Hbox was really starting his peak. That head to head would have flipped if Armada stuck around. He was gassed out and Hbox has had the endurance to stay #1 for record time, and it started before Armada quit.
No way its the hardest level of competition ever without all the gods. Even some top players like plup and leffen aren't taking the game that seriously right now. Wizzy is barely competing. Right now its Zain vs Hbox with some not consistent mango performances. The era with the rise of leffen, the end of ppmd and the peak of armada is the strongest era ever.
I like Hugs putting Mango under HBox, I think it's something a lot of people would find absurd but there's a valid argument. With that said, Zain above Ken is comical. Zain is an incredible player but I don't know if he's even above Wizzy. Give him a couple years and he could be top 10, but I don't think he has a supermajor win, just doesn't have that many top 8s.
It’s really unfortunate that POND had to retire. Had he never been forced to stop He would still be making his case as a top 4
The disrespect to the King of Smash is so painful. How could you HugS? Don't you remember him beating you and Mang0 for Evo...?
Well said, maybe HugS is jealous XD
The Hax$ disrespect. Unbelievable. Mans made a new fucking controller just so he and others with hand problems could continue playing, then rose back up. You missed, Hugo.
I got so trolled I even shit commented :DDDDD
I subbed.
I clicked on this because of the thumbnail
6:20 Have you ever won a major? Then you know what you have to do :P
Honestly if u consider the fact that armada isnt competing then u can say that its actually not the hardest era for hbox. If armada was still around it would be a lot harder for hbox to claim no1. While armada had claimed no1 many times with all the best players active. Especially since armada had a favorable recors vs hbox
Ken deserves number 3!
isn’t the hardest era cause armada and m2k, 2 players who are at least top 5-10 in the world, aren’t playing
NGL I actually skipped all the way to the end because I wanted to see the list and saw the fake list. I was so confused and was like "oh god i gotta see how he justifies this. Only to find out when i went back to the beginning that it was fake. WP Hugs86 WP