Bro I'm not even part of the Hbox fandom but he should at least be in the discussion for the GOAT status as well. Like I know a lot of you don't wanna give him credit because he plays puff but he has a really good resume of being a top 5 melee player for a decade, top 2 for 5 years, the best player for the past 3 years, and winning the most number of tournaments out of anyone in the community during some of the most competitive years of melee so he definitely deserves to be in the discussion IMO.
Agree. IMO as it stands now it’s 1. Armada 2. Hbox 3. Mango but both Mango or Hbox could become #1 depending on how they do after irl tournaments come back.
@@LuisCalderon-qr1mp Ok I do admit Armada is a solid 1st but Mang0 and Hbox can be interchangeable for the 2nd best. At least that's what M2K and Armada mentioned about them.
Honestly, the biggest reason Hbox can't really compete for the #1 spot is his head to head with Armada (Armada wins nearly twice as often, 26 to 14). Yes, Hbox crushes Mang0 with a similar winrate (33-19), and you'd think that puts him up for contention. The problem is that Armada does too (18-11), while also dominating the rest of the field harder than Hbox ever did. RIP the Box :(
@@bladefox5082 Was only talking about end-of-year rankings which are usually what people talk about for a year's rankings. Summer rankings generally have less importance in these discussions for most people.
Gotta be hungrybox. The man is so good that every top player needed to learn a secondary character, the only secondary character they can use just to have a chance to beat him. Imo, its not a contest. Its Hungrybox.
Well depends how do you “define goat” - Longevity as a player who have been at the top on multiple eras of Smash , keeping up with the meta - Head to head , as having a positive record against all players (Armada have positive against everyone except Silent Spectre) - Peak , as how dominant they were , what did they achieved on their eras , and how untouchable where they - Competition Level, how strong where there opponents when they face off each other , and how many players where there to challenge the throne - Consistency, getting to Top 8 all tournaments, again this is perhaps only Armada , he has never miss a Top 8 since 2008/2009. - Revolutionize, how much there style affect the meta , what new thing did they discover with their character , how well they pioneer there character, and pushing the character to the limit - Records , what special thing they achieved that others will probably never replicate? Example as Zero 50+ winning streak or Armada lowest placing since 2009 was 5th place ,
Is a thing of apreciation. For me, if mang0 takes rank 1 in this year it means that he was able to peak in 3 different era's and in possibly the hardest one yet. Also the impact that mang0 has done for the game is way higher than armada. Not to mention he had really dominant periods, not as high as armada tho. At the end of the day i think is to early to set armada in goat status because the game is still going and mang0 (and maybe hbox?) Are still putting in results
@@jacobmunoz1611 Personally , for now is Armada but thing is that when he retired, Mang0 and Hungrybox are not really far from Armada. I feel that some years have more weight than other years, for example , even though 2020 has no tournaments, is the year were most players have risen to the very top. Examples like iBDW , N0ne , and Zain (now been number 1), have power up so much. And we have so many more players that are catching up really fast like Amsa , Trif , Spark , Captain Faceroll , S2J , Wizzrobe , and I could go on. Probably on an objective point of view, the hardest era of Melee is coming, this might sound bad but the new era that is coming and currently going on, makes the era of the 5 Gods look like a child's play lol.
He's consistent because Peach isn't very tech heavy, he just needs to be good with turnip throws, dair into nairs, and decent neutral, skill wise I think he was the worst of the gods, not to be hating ofc, I genuinely think so, Hbox makes puff look easy but it's really hard, Puff is not a good character at the highest level, you can tell whenever Mang0 or Leffen are playing on their A game, M2K showed proficiency with 3 completely different characters, and on his good days he seemed unbeatable, you can say the same about prime ppmd, Mang0 is just Mang0
Yes, Armada no doubt has the better resume / results, but Mango's influence, personality + playstyle, I have to say Mango is the GOAT. Armada's ego is just out of control lately and can't respect him as much as Mango.
I dont think personality has much to do with gameplay or results, but if you do thats fine I respect it. They both do have an ego though throughout their careers. Also, are we counting teams and crew battles in the debate?
@@dforde125 no not counting teams or crew battles because those don't really matter, its just for pride and mango's region is more stacked. Mango is the goat because he has better background story IMO
I think the goat discussion has to take place whenever melee era is long ended We have still great competitors and there is still tournaments to be played, there will be more years of enjoying melee before deciding who is the goat
I disagree. Michael Jordan was almost unanimously considered the goat until LeBron opened the conversation up. Same thing with Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Having icons to look up to is important for the growth of the game, and we can't have that unless we talk about it. We can say that Ken is the goat until we have reasons to say he isn't, like we do now. If Mango wants to be considered the goat again, he needs to earn it. If Armada wants to stay the goat, he has to come back.
@@ojoemojo I don't know much about basketball but for example in boxing Muhammad Ali is considered by everyone the GOAT even though there are boxers with better records. I think the GOAT is not just the dominance on the game itself but also what the individual has done to push forward the game itself Every sport has more story and time to reflect, and we will have a few more years of melee upahead
you said the discussion has to take place after melee is done, then bring up muhammed ali as the goat boxer? you do know that people still box right? why does melee have to be done then? yes there are people still playing the game, but if the game died today who would be the greatest of all time?
Meta change has still happened. It's like shielddropping. People knew about shielddropping from the beginning, but it wasn't "meta" until people started doing it commonly. So "meta change" doesn't NEED to be about any sort of new knowledge With that definition, we can look at a few things -The Marth-Puff matchup because of Zain -The Falcon-Puff matchup because of Wizzy -SDI on Falco combos to get out more often -Spacies hitting stage techs when being edgeguarded is common now -No-tech and then SDI jab reset attempts when getting tech-chased as Falcon in Falcon-Sheik And I'm sure there are more people can think of, but these are solid starters to say things have changed
@@marisanya Oh I agree that there have been significant meta changes and I don't wholly agree with Armada, but I don't know what he considers to be a /big/ meta change and a small one, because he didn't say it hasn't shifted at all, so I don't know, I just don't want the idea that Armada thinks that meta 0% changed and nobody improved to spread. I especially don't want a pile on because it could mean that Armada feels unwelcome in the community in any capacity, because he was casting, ran an EU tournament, doing set analysis and coaching and I want retired players to still feel a sense of community and have impact, so I don't know, if miscommunication pushed him out completely it would be disheartening.
It’s all about eras of melee. Ken is the King of melee. With Adam track record I consider him the GOAT of melee. Mang0 might be the The God of melee because it seems like he’ll the last one survived. The Mang0 is melee.
For me longevity could be an argument IF Armada left for being washed, but he wasn't, he was kicking buts as much in 2018, even if it was closer, so to say that he couldn't do these additional years even if he wasn't bored of the game is outright wrong imo
You couldn't have known this... but I feel like there is no universe now that armada has a winning record against Cody Schwab and Zain if he was still playing in 2024, 6 years after his retirement.
@@benjaminmedranda331 I mean it's been a minute since I checked the scene (my comment is 3 years old lmao) but HBox was still a really strong contender while barely practicing pursuing a full ytber career, so I don't know, if he had the same etiquette of constantly practicing, I don't think he wouodn't have adapted, now if he decided to come back suddenly I agree he would get floored
I think if Mang0 could get over Zain and start a period of dominance, the Mango Goat discussion would be more justified. I don’t see peak Armada beating current Zain to be honest. The Armada counter came to late.
@@Dupontcore ehhhhh doesn’t matter because mango is still behind armada, and Zain at least for the time being has performed better than mango overall recently.
@Car Ram-Rod “when he’s playing well” I love the qualifiers mango gets. Bottom line, mango wasn’t number one when armada was here, he wasn’t number one when he left (Hbox was) and Zain has won a lot more during Covid on netplay, and you’re going all the way back to big house. Zain has a winning record against mango if you include online or not. There just always seems to be someone ahead of mango at all times.
He won't that's the thing. There's just no way. He couldn't even get over Armada in the past you're telling be he's going to be more dominant when the competition is even more fierce than ever before?
such a rip too. hes the BEST of pre-brawl melee i think. post brawl melee is a toss-up between hbox, mang0 and armada. i think armada was the most consistent #1 from 2010-2018. armada is the statistical goat. theres 0 argument but mang0 might be the performative goat.
Ken at the very least deserves a top 10 spot for being the best for 3 years and winning like 80/85 tournaments or whatever. Say what you will about weak eras, but no one outside of Armada, Mango and Hbox have ever approached those levels of dominance and winning.
In the end, greatness has to do with winning. And he won more than anyone in melee's history that isn't one of the Five Gods. I get that you're probably trolling for putting Ken 12th but whatever. It still deserves to be said.
08:00 its skill & consistency, not meta changing. The idea of meta changes has to be considered something along the lines of "shield dropping" or "reaction tech chase" If people hit a high skill level, that only means they are playing consistent on a high level. Consistency on high level does not mean the META has changed or is changing.You have to understand that Meta and skill are not the same thing. If you can distinguish those two things then you have to understand where Armada and DF are coming from.
I think a point that is missing here, is that Mango couldnt really beat Armada consistently during the time both of them were active. If Jordan whopped LeBron for a good portion of a decade, noone would dispute Jordan bein greater than him, regardless of what lebron does after Jordan retires.
Yeah because Armada literally just camped and spammed Down Smash on Peach to win. If Mango played slower and more methodical back then he probably would've crushed Armada. I also don't think GOAT status should be based on purely results. Mango has done way more for the game than Armada who just plays to win.
Brady destroyed Mahomes in playoffs + SuperBowl. Brady has all results (makes sense since he is older) but somehow dumbass think Mahomes is the football GOAT
@@simanolastname2399 yet mango is one of the most popular smash streamers playing a variety of games and is STILL competing in melee for 20 years while Armada is nobody and just talks sh-t on Twitter. One is a real GOAT, another is European nobody
The longevity argument means so little when you don’t have the same dominance as someone who can secure wins. You don’t become the goat from simply participating at the top level. You must also win at the top level.
HugS a big debate in some sports circles is the “Mt Rushmore” if the sport, so for basketball it would be Russell, Kareem, Jordan, and Bron (IMO). Different eras and skill levels. Do this for smash content!
Do you count things helping build the community? Would you give a leg up to players with worse characters, or a wide variety of characters? Or even sticking to one character? These (or their analogues) are usually part of the Hall of Fame considerations in other sports.
Hall of fame doesnt determine u being a goat in other sports tho nobody ever talks ab tht bc everyone in the discussion is always in the hof .... it’s p much a side not compared to what goats achieve in terms of what makes them a goat
Sure, Blur can be annoying in person, but I hate the fact that no one gives him props for all the work he's done for the melee community behind the scenes. Sure, he's not a great player, and sure, he might be awkward/annoying socially, but he has played a very important role in the community and he gets little to no recognition for it
The thing that many don't consider, and what I think Armada is willfully ignorant about, is the fact that Armada entered far fewer tournaments than Mango. This is obviously going to lower the odds of him losing to people outside the top 6.
@@traycarrot "wins"? I'm not sure what that even means. I'm just pointing out that a much higher tournament attendance increases your odds of taking losses over an extended period of time.
@@traycarrot I'm not arguing anything to do with Armada's winning record against Mango. I'm specifically speaking on the point of "not losing to people outside the top 6" that Armada and others point to when comparing the two. I agree that his winning record over Mango speaks for itself; I simply believe people give a bit too much weight to "not losing to people outside the top 6", considering Mango played against those people more often than Armada did.
Lebron is soooooo apt for hbox since lebron has 10 finals appearances and has lost more than half, which reflects on how before his period of dominance hbox was stuck in second a lot in majors
Are we going to talk about the Buster? Mang0 has some rough loses on his record that the other gods and Lef don't. What about HGod? Hgod loses one tournament bad and he's out the discussion now? Armada is the GOAT. I don't think thats a real debate. He had an immeasurable peak for a sustained amount of time. Armada also pushed the Fox meta forward in a way that almost no one has and pushed the Peach meta forward in a way no one has pushed a character ever (respect the young link). The man was from the future. Do we value what they've done for the meta? Armada was the linchpin to push Mango and Hbox forward. Even now Mango is using Armada as a linchpin. That should be enough to decide this discussion, Armada is uncontested With that being said, why is Mango the only one talked about passing him? Why are we still doubting Hbox and his ability to be the best player on earth when real tournaments are happening?
I also highkey get mad when retired players try to talk like this...you gotta pick up the sticks if you wanna make claims like that. You can't just sit there in the background and say you would be awesome. Prove it.
@@parsath_2584 I'm not denying his skill when he played. I'm just saying that you can't sit from the sidelines and say you would still be good today without backing it up. It comes off as weak.
I think no matter what armada thinks, he, Mango and Hbox are going to be compared to each other until the ends of time. And if that bothers armada then he should probably get off the internet because it’s going to happen regardless
Yeah I agree, he needs to put his controller where his mouth is. Ken used to be the GOAT and guess what? He probably couldn't make it through pools nowadays
It’s also super important to me to consider cultural impact. Mango is undeniably the most recognized and beloved melee player and has single handedly brought thousands to tens of thousands new people to the scene with his swagger and charisma. I think like the Lebron and Jordan arguement: Mango is the GOAT and Armada is the BOAT
That does not make any sense at all. That might as more to their legacy as a player but it does not make them any greater in terms of their game. You don't need to be the most beloved player to be the best player.
@@user-un8jx8yo7z I prefaced my point with “important to me”. ‘Great’ is an inherently subjective adjective and takes into consideration much more than just results, while ‘best’ is more tangible and definable imo and can much easily rely on statistical dominance. With that framing it’s hard not to claim Mang0 as the goat.
This is idiotic. It would be different if we never got to see these guys at their primes playing against one another. But we did. Armada has beaten Mango nearly twice as often as he's lost, with a 62% winrate. Not only that, Armada has beaten Hbox in 65% of their matches - with Mango only 36%. M2K? Armada 71%, Mango 53%. Pick anyone but Leffen, and Armada dominated them far harder than Mango ever did. Not only that, Armada has 2 losses outside of the top ten in the last decade. Mang0 has more than ten times as many. The only argument for Mango that you could possibly make is "Mango makes me feel a certain way about Melee, so he's the greatest!" which is just another way of admitting you're biased.
KEEP IN MIND this statistical dominance was all while playing a non-S-tier character, and travelling 20+ hours from home for 99% of his tournament sets. "But x0tek, we don't know for sure if Mang0's prime will eclipse Armada's! The game is getting better all the time!" ...right, but you don't know if Zain's will either? Or Leffen's? Or maybe n0ne goes on a tear and dominates everyone for the next decade? You can't use a "maybe" to argue who's the greatest, only what people actually have done. That said, the idea of a GOAT is silly until the game is dead. Stories are still being told. But it's not any sillier than trying to pretend Armada's case for the GOAT wouldn't be vastly stronger than Mang0's in nearly every single way.
@@gilmarquez9503 smashdata.gg/smash/melee/head/Mang0/Hungrybox?id2=1004 Mang0 has a 19-33 set record against Hungrybox since the data has been recorded =P
I think Armada's claims that Amsah at one point may have been the best player in the world should be taken seriously. He does have some good arguments, but we can never know. I do think that Armada's entry into the elite of Smash should not be measured from when he started going to the US, but from when he started to be able to hold his own against Amsah. Anyway, I think people underestimate the old school players. Even if the skill level was lower, it still takes skill to be able to get ahead of everyone, and we have seen that many of the top players from that age are still able to do well, if they haven't quit.
*Hugs* the day I saw you and Mang0 coming into that Quiznos out by the Mid West House, and Mango was in his soccer uniform, and you were all puling up, then Ken came by. I knew that I would have my work cut out for me growing up in SoCal and trying to get better at Melee, and later Smash as a whole. But I know, that for a fact, you guys put more heart and love into the game than Aramada. And for that, hands down, Mango is the *GOAT*
I disagree about Armada being 2 years away from out of the conversation. If the top spot is in constant flux you will need to use other markers that take more time to verify.
This. Mang0 and hbox are top 3 for sure, but the fact that you can count Armada's loses with one hand over a period of almost 10 years is just straight up goated.
Mango talked about it in his tweet. During the era of the 5 gods, armada was a god, be he still lost to the other gods quite a bit. The only 2 years of dominance were 2014 and 2015, and he still lost to other gods (and leffen) during that time.
@@theabner880 I mean then Wizzy won a tournament, None showed up, Zain started winning, Axe won summit, etc. Nothing like that ever happened during Armada's time, just him and Hbox coming first and second
Mango’s video about HBox’s retirement says it all. Being GOATed is having it all, losing it all, and coming back to be the best again. That’s what he’s looking for. And he’s gonna do it because he’ll be playing Melee until his hands fall off.
@@7cross288 Of course Jordan lost. Jordan literally lost more seasons than he won. Also it's not like prime Jordan retired when people were catching up to him.
@@7cross288 To be fair you could consider taking 2 years off and losing in the Conference Finals playing poorly and then winning the next 3 fits OPs description. But yeah that's still way too specific of a GOAT description.
Something to consider: The meta has shifted because Armada and M2K aren't playing, and Hbox isn't in top form anymore. As dominant forces, their playstyles forced everyone to play a bit differently. I have *NO IDEA* how to quantify this. It's probably only something a top 10 player could even qualify if it's true.
I can’t consider Armada the GoaT considering he quit playing because he could NOT beat hbox anymore. Guy just gave up while everyone else has surpassed hbox at this point. He quit, that’s not a goat move IMO.
@@nathanharris8896 right but it’s not ab his winning record w this guys point. He’s saying if’s a cowardly move for a goat. Armada cldve been up 50-0 but if in the last year or so hbox brought it to 50-49 and then armada left then that would look really bad. Hopefully this helped you understand.
The real GOAT is Flax Seedz. He's the final boss every goat must face after they get goated. So I might not live to see tomorrow, I gave away an elite secret.
Kept playing and kept up dude if he sorry about this shit then come back and play if your retired ur out of the scene and u dont decide if ur goat or not other ppl do lol majority of goat lists just goes to who has won the most and thats that whos got the most #1s is the goat for pretty much everything
I think it's this one, not sure though: liquipedia.net/smash/Special:RunQuery/Match_history?title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FMatch_history&Head_to_head_query=player%3DMango&pfRunQueryFormName=Match+history&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D%5B%5D=Mango&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D%5Bis_list%5D=1&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D%5B%5D=Hungrybox&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D%5Bis_list%5D=1&Head+to+head+query%5Bgame%5D=Melee&Head+to+head+query%5Btier%5D%5B0%5D=Premier&Head+to+head+query%5Btier%5D%5
The problem with the Armada-Mango Jordan-LeBron comparison is that Armada 1) plays a rare character that people have seldom any knowledge or practice against and 2) he doesn't even live in the US. Notice how Leffen had the upper hand on him the latter half of Armada's career as shown by the dominant 3-0 at EVO? They played all the time in Sweden, so Leffen knew what to do. And PP definitely had the upper hand with Marth before his hiatus. Then Hbox and Puff is a given. Mango was going back and forth after his terrible 2015 year, and Plup was flipping the script on him with Sheik. And now Zain. Even if Armada didn't retire, I wholeheartedly believe Zain could 3-stock the Peach comfortably. Think I'm crazy? The man showed Marth as a viable choice against PUFF! Armada REALLY would struggle against Zain full send. Armada was a great student of the game and top 5 material easy, but he retired just as everyone was figuring him out.
Anyone who says the game isn't that different than it was in 2018 is on drugs. I played competitively back then and only watch now and even just watching the slippi tournaments going on right now, its clear just watching. The consistency of players utilizing tech that people didn't really use at all back then now and having to do reads based on that now is insane. Sheild drop BAITS are a thing now. Double amsa teching is common now. ASDI and Smash DI is on another level. I mean just look at the top marth in 2017/2018 vs Zain now, he looks like he is playing a different game.
I value taking Armada's peach to last stock, last game, with Mario. The man teabagged the entire Melee community mid set and was still winning. Scorpion Master proves Mango is the GOAT.
I think HBox is the GOAT now. Being the best 2017-2019, probably would’ve been number 1 this year if irl tourneys were still a thing, it just means more to the best now then it did in 2013/14 for Mang0 or 15-16 for Armada. Armada does have a overwhelming winning record over every other god though which I believe is the difference maker Mang0 has actually has losing record to HBox since 2015 19-33
Would peak Armada even be able to consistently surpass current Zain's Marth? I mean, the Peach matchup is clearly favorable for Marth (and Zain has been slapping spacies) and at Armada's peak the only Marth at the top was a falling off M2K who didn't even focus on Marth anymore.
I feel like if Zain was present in a pre-2018 era Armada would have plenty more losses (while still being at the top 3, ofc) whereas Mang0 would perform about the same.
I think the Greatest of All Time discussion really has to look at careers holistically. Longevity and tournament wins are very important. The Best of All Time discussion can be much more focused on the short term, more of a who was the most dominant for whatever time period. Armada will always be the BOAT in my mind, because his dominance is unrivaled and will likely never be recreated. BUT, Mang0 or somebody else could take the GOAT title with longevity and tournament wins. Relating it to basketball, Michael Jordan is the BOAT with no doubt, his peak is higher than every body else, and higher than anybody else's ever will be (6/7 championships is unreal), but LeBron could be the GOAT because of a 4/10 finals record, including 8 straight finals appearances, plus more to potentially come.
1.Armada( The man Rarely lost to anyone not on his level) 2.Mang0( Pioneer of Badass and Freestyle playstyle) 3.Hbox(Clutch king) 4.Mew2king( First god, First god slayer, the most important pioneer in smash made the top tier characters) 5.Ken ( First king and most important person in melee)
@Ioulum That couldve changed, maybe, if he kept playing, but he didnt. The simple fact is that when Armada quit, he had lost his #1 spot a year before, and got 3-0d by Leffen in EVO. He couldnt even play Peach anymore. And then he quit. Adam has no right to be talking shit and pretending like he is still the best. He saw Cody and Zain in the horizon, two players that COMPLETELY invalidate BOTH of Armada's characters, and said "fuck it Im out". Come back and prove it or shut the fuck up.
Today? Wizzrobe for Sure could take wins on Armada-- N0ne too-- and ibdw would be beating Armada more than he beats Zain. Tournaments today are way more brutal than they were in 2018.
Its different than michael lebron. It would be like if michael was in year 17, and then lebron came and started beating michael, but was also in year 17 and continued playing and winning.
Seriously, the biggest problem is that Armada has kept a winning record over EVERYONE in the GOAT discussion(everyone in general actually). Had it been closer, I could get the arguments about him not being the GOAT anymore at some point, but realistically speaking. unless a new top player like IDBW or Zain start dominating like crazy for like 5 years(let's say been 3 years best by far and 2 times second), I don't see how Armada can loose his GOAT status. If you look at actual stats, there's none where Armada is not leading BESIDE longevity, and it's not like he retired because he was injured or anything. Take it like this, if James and Jordan played in the same era, but Jordan mostly won then retired at 30 and then Lebron started winning more, would that be relevant? We can only debate Jordan vs James because they played in different Era, unlike Chamberlan and Russell. You'll never see Chamberlan over Russel in any Goat discussion in NBA because Russell won so much more while playing each other.
Armada is clearly the GOAT as of right now. Not sure there's an argument there. But HugS and mango were saying that if mango reaches 1 again, he is debatably GOAT, which personally I agree with. Proving able to adapt to every era of melee besides the ancient times, overcome every modern player and reach rank 1 shows that mango could do it over everyone. If he gets back to rank 1 then he'll have been rank 1 at some point over nearly everyone ever relevant.
I don't get Blur. He seemed very upset in chat, and started his monologue with "I used to respect your opinions", but in the end, he basically repeated what Hugs was already saying.
@@frankniggums6757 I didn't mean "upset" as "took it personnally", but more as "upset at how much Hugs's opinions suck". In the end, y'all have to be correct, it has to be a joke, there is no other explanation. I guess I just don't find it funny. I'm procrastinating, so let me develop my opinion: Before getting called a hater, I want to say I admire the guy and what he has done for Melee. I've probably seen everything there is to see from Blur on TH-cam (yes, I watch too much TH-cam, i know) and he seems to have a modus-operandi similar to what we just witnessed and I find it soooo unopbtimal. He as a wealth of knowledge and experience and professes to care about the health of Melee more than anything else... but then he inserts himself unprepared into a (often important) conversation like a troll with inflammatory language, monopolizes the discussion with bold claims, uses dubious rhetoric like a high school student trying to win a debate at all cost, changes his stances mid-conversation/makes contradictory statements and ends up joking most of the time, sometimes seemingly to avoid responding to good arguments. This video does not show all of that and is not on a particularly important subject (although, not totally benign), but I'm thinking of stuff like the BOXX and UCF when they were controversial. tl;dr He is a troll, when he could be so much more
When Hbox talked about retiring after getting bodied over netplay mid quarantine after not practicing and playing ultimate on stream for days mang0 said something that stuck with me. He said something along the lines of “When you’re on that top peak of melee as #1 it’s great. You feel like a god. But you need to stay on top of it because while you’re on the top everyone else is still climbing and trust me when you look down and you see a bunch of crack head fox mains clawing their way to the peak it’s fucking scary” And I find that quote is relevant talking about armada now. Retiring as soon as more people start to get good enough to match the level of play he demonstrated throughout the mid 2010’s seems like an easy way to say “oh well when I stopped no one could beat me so I’m the best” I’d love to see him come back and demonstrate he’s as dominant as he was but what I’d love more is to see him come back and get absolutely TOSSED by Zain’s Roy.
Why is the new trend the debate between Mango and Armada? Love him or hate him, isn't Hbox supposed to be in this convo? I know the Melee scene likes Mango a lot though.
@@BringBackOGClubPenguin Im aware, people are still gonna rank them and discuss with others, based results in the online tournaments. And nobody is gonna say that Hbox was Top 4 this year.
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Bro the dislike is from blur
Derek W and all 8 of his fans
Buck Flur
@@nathanmatthewbyers thanks Big Nate, my last check I was hovering around 4, but I guess things can change 🤩🤩
Now the other 29 are 5 more fans and all Blur's alt accounts
Bro I'm not even part of the Hbox fandom but he should at least be in the discussion for the GOAT status as well. Like I know a lot of you don't wanna give him credit because he plays puff but he has a really good resume of being a top 5 melee player for a decade, top 2 for 5 years, the best player for the past 3 years, and winning the most number of tournaments out of anyone in the community during some of the most competitive years of melee so he definitely deserves to be in the discussion IMO.
Agree. IMO as it stands now it’s
1. Armada
2. Hbox
3. Mango
but both Mango or Hbox could become #1 depending on how they do after irl tournaments come back.
Sure... if you check of the things that everyone are considering hbox is solid third
@@LuisCalderon-qr1mp Ok I do admit Armada is a solid 1st but Mang0 and Hbox can be interchangeable for the 2nd best. At least that's what M2K and Armada mentioned about them.
Honestly, the biggest reason Hbox can't really compete for the #1 spot is his head to head with Armada (Armada wins nearly twice as often, 26 to 14).
Yes, Hbox crushes Mang0 with a similar winrate (33-19), and you'd think that puts him up for contention. The problem is that Armada does too (18-11), while also dominating the rest of the field harder than Hbox ever did.
RIP the Box :(
@@x0tek where are you getting these numbers? Armada is up on hbox 33-19 and up on mango 29-21. mango is up on hbox 42-38
Another point for Armada's argument: During his whole career, any year he wasn't #1 he was at least #2.
literally showed on video summer 2018
Except for in the 2014 summer (4th) and the 2018 summer (3rd) which is still insane
@@bladefox5082 Was only talking about end-of-year rankings which are usually what people talk about for a year's rankings. Summer rankings generally have less importance in these discussions for most people.
@@Izquierda ooooooooohhhhhhhh ok
@@Izquierda Poor ppmd
I think theres one thing we can agree on and its that civilisation would be much better if Hugs won Evo.
I retrieved my like to matain the number at exactly 86.
Gotta be hungrybox. The man is so good that every top player needed to learn a secondary character, the only secondary character they can use just to have a chance to beat him. Imo, its not a contest. Its Hungrybox.
i'm the goat. i eat grass and live on a mountain and get milked.
The getting milked part got me
my fellow goat brother BAHHH BAHH BAHH. BAHH BAAAAH.
Sadly I am but a measly sheep. They just steel my wool
@@Staticsheep28 how the fack they STEEL your wool?!??!
mozietnation
Well depends how do you “define goat”
- Longevity as a player who have been at the top on multiple eras of Smash , keeping up with the meta
- Head to head , as having a positive record against all players (Armada have positive against everyone except Silent Spectre)
- Peak , as how dominant they were , what did they achieved on their eras , and how untouchable where they
- Competition Level, how strong where there opponents when they face off each other , and how many players where there to challenge the throne
- Consistency, getting to Top 8 all tournaments, again this is perhaps only Armada , he has never miss a Top 8 since 2008/2009.
- Revolutionize, how much there style affect the meta , what new thing did they discover with their character , how well they pioneer there character, and pushing the character to the limit
- Records , what special thing they achieved that others will probably never replicate? Example as Zero 50+ winning streak or Armada lowest placing since 2009 was 5th place ,
Is a thing of apreciation. For me, if mang0 takes rank 1 in this year it means that he was able to peak in 3 different era's and in possibly the hardest one yet.
Also the impact that mang0 has done for the game is way higher than armada. Not to mention he had really dominant periods, not as high as armada tho.
At the end of the day i think is to early to set armada in goat status because the game is still going and mang0 (and maybe hbox?) Are still putting in results
Also Captain Jack
@@jacobmunoz1611 Personally , for now is Armada but thing is that when he retired, Mang0 and Hungrybox are not really far from Armada. I feel that some years have more weight than other years, for example , even though 2020 has no tournaments, is the year were most players have risen to the very top. Examples like iBDW , N0ne , and Zain (now been number 1), have power up so much. And we have so many more players that are catching up really fast like Amsa , Trif , Spark , Captain Faceroll , S2J , Wizzrobe , and I could go on.
Probably on an objective point of view, the hardest era of Melee is coming, this might sound bad but the new era that is coming and currently going on, makes the era of the 5 Gods look like a child's play lol.
He's consistent because Peach isn't very tech heavy, he just needs to be good with turnip throws, dair into nairs, and decent neutral, skill wise I think he was the worst of the gods, not to be hating ofc, I genuinely think so, Hbox makes puff look easy but it's really hard, Puff is not a good character at the highest level, you can tell whenever Mang0 or Leffen are playing on their A game, M2K showed proficiency with 3 completely different characters, and on his good days he seemed unbeatable, you can say the same about prime ppmd, Mang0 is just Mang0
watch Mango vs PPMD at Kings of Cali to find out who Hugs' goat is ;D
It's amazing how hugs was able to speak with mang0's ass in the mouth
I watch that set every month and I confirm that HugS likes PPMD
Idk, PPs giving him a run for his money Hugs
Bro, Jeez, that was something
Mang0 is my favorite player, the reason i started avidly watching melee, but Armada is the goat. His resume is insane.
Yes, Armada no doubt has the better resume / results, but Mango's influence, personality + playstyle, I have to say Mango is the GOAT. Armada's ego is just out of control lately and can't respect him as much as Mango.
I dont think personality has much to do with gameplay or results, but if you do thats fine I respect it. They both do have an ego though throughout their careers. Also, are we counting teams and crew battles in the debate?
@@dforde125 no not counting teams or crew battles because those don't really matter, its just for pride and mango's region is more stacked. Mango is the goat because he has better background story IMO
@@chuifongtam4703 lol mang0 has the bigger ego of the two tbh
@@chuifongtam4703 Mango's fanbase is the most annoying fanbase of all time, so that makes Armada the GOAT.
love you hugo, commenting just so the algorithm knows it too
Mango gets drunk wins tournaments. Armada gets drunk, loses to Kirby. Mango the goat
I get drunk I agree with your comment
I think the goat discussion has to take place whenever melee era is long ended
We have still great competitors and there is still tournaments to be played, there will be more years of enjoying melee before deciding who is the goat
Exactly!!
I disagree. Michael Jordan was almost unanimously considered the goat until LeBron opened the conversation up. Same thing with Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Having icons to look up to is important for the growth of the game, and we can't have that unless we talk about it. We can say that Ken is the goat until we have reasons to say he isn't, like we do now.
If Mango wants to be considered the goat again, he needs to earn it. If Armada wants to stay the goat, he has to come back.
@@ojoemojo I don't know much about basketball but for example in boxing Muhammad Ali is considered by everyone the GOAT even though there are boxers with better records.
I think the GOAT is not just the dominance on the game itself but also what the individual has done to push forward the game itself
Every sport has more story and time to reflect, and we will have a few more years of melee upahead
you said the discussion has to take place after melee is done, then bring up muhammed ali as the goat boxer? you do know that people still box right?
why does melee have to be done then? yes there are people still playing the game, but if the game died today who would be the greatest of all time?
Implying melee will end
I'm the melee GOAT. I can beat up level 9 CPUs any day.
Come back when you can survive the Monke Pit
HES TOO DANGEROUS TO BE LEFT ALIVE
@@turtlechamp8325 Lies of the jedi
But Armada did say that players have gotten better, it's just that improvement doesn't equate to meta change
Ya I think I heard mango or some top player rn also saying meta hasn’t changed but everyone’s getting better.
Meta change has still happened. It's like shielddropping. People knew about shielddropping from the beginning, but it wasn't "meta" until people started doing it commonly. So "meta change" doesn't NEED to be about any sort of new knowledge
With that definition, we can look at a few things
-The Marth-Puff matchup because of Zain
-The Falcon-Puff matchup because of Wizzy
-SDI on Falco combos to get out more often
-Spacies hitting stage techs when being edgeguarded is common now
-No-tech and then SDI jab reset attempts when getting tech-chased as Falcon in Falcon-Sheik
And I'm sure there are more people can think of, but these are solid starters to say things have changed
@@marisanya Oh I agree that there have been significant meta changes and I don't wholly agree with Armada, but I don't know what he considers to be a /big/ meta change and a small one, because he didn't say it hasn't shifted at all, so I don't know, I just don't want the idea that Armada thinks that meta 0% changed and nobody improved to spread.
I especially don't want a pile on because it could mean that Armada feels unwelcome in the community in any capacity, because he was casting, ran an EU tournament, doing set analysis and coaching and I want retired players to still feel a sense of community and have impact, so I don't know, if miscommunication pushed him out completely it would be disheartening.
It’s all about eras of melee.
Ken is the King of melee.
With Adam track record I consider him the GOAT of melee. Mang0 might be the The God of melee because it seems like he’ll the last one survived. The Mang0 is melee.
For me longevity could be an argument IF Armada left for being washed, but he wasn't, he was kicking buts as much in 2018, even if it was closer, so to say that he couldn't do these additional years even if he wasn't bored of the game is outright wrong imo
You couldn't have known this... but I feel like there is no universe now that armada has a winning record against Cody Schwab and Zain if he was still playing in 2024, 6 years after his retirement.
@@benjaminmedranda331 I mean it's been a minute since I checked the scene (my comment is 3 years old lmao) but HBox was still a really strong contender while barely practicing pursuing a full ytber career, so I don't know, if he had the same etiquette of constantly practicing, I don't think he wouodn't have adapted, now if he decided to come back suddenly I agree he would get floored
I think if Mang0 could get over Zain and start a period of dominance, the Mango Goat discussion would be more justified. I don’t see peak Armada beating current Zain to be honest. The Armada counter came to late.
Mango clearly going full steam ahead and if you didn’t see him absolutely embarrass him the other day then you should prob watch. Mango has caught up
also he’s playing an easily 70-30 MU
@@Dupontcore ehhhhh doesn’t matter because mango is still behind armada, and Zain at least for the time being has performed better than mango overall recently.
@Car Ram-Rod “when he’s playing well” I love the qualifiers mango gets. Bottom line, mango wasn’t number one when armada was here, he wasn’t number one when he left (Hbox was) and Zain has won a lot more during Covid on netplay, and you’re going all the way back to big house. Zain has a winning record against mango if you include online or not. There just always seems to be someone ahead of mango at all times.
He won't that's the thing. There's just no way. He couldn't even get over Armada in the past you're telling be he's going to be more dominant when the competition is even more fierce than ever before?
I love how as time goes on ken's legacy ends up just being a meme
such a rip too. hes the BEST of pre-brawl melee i think. post brawl melee is a toss-up between hbox, mang0 and armada. i think armada was the most consistent #1 from 2010-2018. armada is the statistical goat. theres 0 argument but mang0 might be the performative goat.
Ken at the very least deserves a top 10 spot for being the best for 3 years and winning like 80/85 tournaments or whatever.
Say what you will about weak eras, but no one outside of Armada, Mango and Hbox have ever approached those levels of dominance and winning.
In the end, greatness has to do with winning. And he won more than anyone in melee's history that isn't one of the Five Gods.
I get that you're probably trolling for putting Ken 12th but whatever. It still deserves to be said.
wasnt it 87/92?
@@livelife5763 yeah I wasn't sure about the exact number
Ken is def in the top 10
08:00
its skill & consistency, not meta changing. The idea of meta changes has to be considered something along the lines of "shield dropping" or "reaction tech chase"
If people hit a high skill level, that only means they are playing consistent on a high level. Consistency on high level does not mean the META has changed or is changing.You have to understand that Meta and skill are not the same thing. If you can distinguish those two things then you have to understand where Armada and DF are coming from.
I think a point that is missing here, is that Mango couldnt really beat Armada consistently during the time both of them were active. If Jordan whopped LeBron for a good portion of a decade, noone would dispute Jordan bein greater than him, regardless of what lebron does after Jordan retires.
Not really, it's like if Lebron had been the better player from 1989-1992 and then quit.
Yeah because Armada literally just camped and spammed Down Smash on Peach to win. If Mango played slower and more methodical back then he probably would've crushed Armada. I also don't think GOAT status should be based on purely results. Mango has done way more for the game than Armada who just plays to win.
Brady destroyed Mahomes in playoffs + SuperBowl. Brady has all results (makes sense since he is older) but somehow dumbass think Mahomes is the football GOAT
@@chuifongtam4703bait used to be believable
@@simanolastname2399 yet mango is one of the most popular smash streamers playing a variety of games and is STILL competing in melee for 20 years while Armada is nobody and just talks sh-t on Twitter. One is a real GOAT, another is European nobody
The longevity argument means so little when you don’t have the same dominance as someone who can secure wins. You don’t become the goat from simply participating at the top level. You must also win at the top level.
HugS a big debate in some sports circles is the “Mt Rushmore” if the sport, so for basketball it would be Russell, Kareem, Jordan, and Bron (IMO). Different eras and skill levels. Do this for smash content!
i think about the thumbnail to this video every day
Do you count things helping build the community? Would you give a leg up to players with worse characters, or a wide variety of characters? Or even sticking to one character?
These (or their analogues) are usually part of the Hall of Fame considerations in other sports.
Hall of fame doesnt determine u being a goat in other sports tho nobody ever talks ab tht bc everyone in the discussion is always in the hof .... it’s p much a side not compared to what goats achieve in terms of what makes them a goat
another thing is that mang0 has competed at top level with jigglypuff, fox, falco, falcon, marth and even mario.
Blur is like the little annoying kid in class that really wants to speak up
bro super annoying fr
Sure, Blur can be annoying in person, but I hate the fact that no one gives him props for all the work he's done for the melee community behind the scenes. Sure, he's not a great player, and sure, he might be awkward/annoying socially, but he has played a very important role in the community and he gets little to no recognition for it
The thing that many don't consider, and what I think Armada is willfully ignorant about, is the fact that Armada entered far fewer tournaments than Mango. This is obviously going to lower the odds of him losing to people outside the top 6.
@@traycarrot "wins"? I'm not sure what that even means. I'm just pointing out that a much higher tournament attendance increases your odds of taking losses over an extended period of time.
@Ioulum I see your point but that doesn't change anything about what I said.
@@traycarrot I'm not arguing anything to do with Armada's winning record against Mango. I'm specifically speaking on the point of "not losing to people outside the top 6" that Armada and others point to when comparing the two. I agree that his winning record over Mango speaks for itself; I simply believe people give a bit too much weight to "not losing to people outside the top 6", considering Mango played against those people more often than Armada did.
If the Salty Suite between Chillin and Leffen doesn’t prove “the meta is the same,” idea wrong, I don’t know what will.
there is so much more melee to be played is such a good quote
Armada = Jordan, Mang0 = Kobe, Hbox = LeBron
Dude I don’t want Mang0 to die in a helicopter crash
Said it better than anyone else
Lebron is soooooo apt for hbox since lebron has 10 finals appearances and has lost more than half, which reflects on how before his period of dominance hbox was stuck in second a lot in majors
@@EvanPlaysPc and then became a dominant force once the other goats started to quit
Are we going to talk about the Buster? Mang0 has some rough loses on his record that the other gods and Lef don't. What about HGod? Hgod loses one tournament bad and he's out the discussion now?
Armada is the GOAT. I don't think thats a real debate. He had an immeasurable peak for a sustained amount of time. Armada also pushed the Fox meta forward in a way that almost no one has and pushed the Peach meta forward in a way no one has pushed a character ever (respect the young link). The man was from the future. Do we value what they've done for the meta? Armada was the linchpin to push Mango and Hbox forward. Even now Mango is using Armada as a linchpin. That should be enough to decide this discussion, Armada is uncontested
With that being said, why is Mango the only one talked about passing him? Why are we still doubting Hbox and his ability to be the best player on earth when real tournaments are happening?
You counted the summers as being on top for a “year”. How are you on top for a year if it was only half a year?
I also highkey get mad when retired players try to talk like this...you gotta pick up the sticks if you wanna make claims like that. You can't just sit there in the background and say you would be awesome. Prove it.
Why should he?
He was travelling further than anyone and in a far less good area for practice and still easily number 1.
The facts talk.
@@parsath_2584 I'm not denying his skill when he played. I'm just saying that you can't sit from the sidelines and say you would still be good today without backing it up. It comes off as weak.
I think no matter what armada thinks, he, Mango and Hbox are going to be compared to each other until the ends of time. And if that bothers armada then he should probably get off the internet because it’s going to happen regardless
Yeah I agree, he needs to put his controller where his mouth is. Ken used to be the GOAT and guess what? He probably couldn't make it through pools nowadays
@@UheReasin I disagree. I don’t think that every time people say you aren’t the goat, you have to come out of retirement and retrain to prove it.
It’s also super important to me to consider cultural impact. Mango is undeniably the most recognized and beloved melee player and has single handedly brought thousands to tens of thousands new people to the scene with his swagger and charisma. I think like the Lebron and Jordan arguement: Mango is the GOAT and Armada is the BOAT
That does not make any sense at all. That might as more to their legacy as a player but it does not make them any greater in terms of their game. You don't need to be the most beloved player to be the best player.
@@user-un8jx8yo7z I prefaced my point with “important to me”. ‘Great’ is an inherently subjective adjective and takes into consideration much more than just results, while ‘best’ is more tangible and definable imo and can much easily rely on statistical dominance. With that framing it’s hard not to claim Mang0 as the goat.
He put me off Melee by being a MURICAN stereotype so...
Consider this: Armada has a positive winrate against everyone.
Not against silent spectre
everyone except SilentSpectre*
and captain jack actually
@@stephenlansdowne3239 But that was invalid anyway because of 0.9 damage ratio or whatever right?
@@robertgerow670 Nah it's still legitimate because if anything, the 0.9 damage ratio also messed up Silent Spectre's gameplay.
This is idiotic. It would be different if we never got to see these guys at their primes playing against one another. But we did. Armada has beaten Mango nearly twice as often as he's lost, with a 62% winrate.
Not only that, Armada has beaten Hbox in 65% of their matches - with Mango only 36%.
M2K? Armada 71%, Mango 53%.
Pick anyone but Leffen, and Armada dominated them far harder than Mango ever did. Not only that, Armada has 2 losses outside of the top ten in the last decade. Mang0 has more than ten times as many.
The only argument for Mango that you could possibly make is "Mango makes me feel a certain way about Melee, so he's the greatest!" which is just another way of admitting you're biased.
KEEP IN MIND this statistical dominance was all while playing a non-S-tier character, and travelling 20+ hours from home for 99% of his tournament sets.
"But x0tek, we don't know for sure if Mang0's prime will eclipse Armada's! The game is getting better all the time!" ...right, but you don't know if Zain's will either? Or Leffen's? Or maybe n0ne goes on a tear and dominates everyone for the next decade? You can't use a "maybe" to argue who's the greatest, only what people actually have done.
That said, the idea of a GOAT is silly until the game is dead. Stories are still being told. But it's not any sillier than trying to pretend Armada's case for the GOAT wouldn't be vastly stronger than Mang0's in nearly every single way.
mango has a winning record on hbox tha fuck where do you get that 36%
@@gilmarquez9503 smashdata.gg/smash/melee/head/Mang0/Hungrybox?id2=1004
Mang0 has a 19-33 set record against Hungrybox since the data has been recorded =P
I think Armada's claims that Amsah at one point may have been the best player in the world should be taken seriously. He does have some good arguments, but we can never know. I do think that Armada's entry into the elite of Smash should not be measured from when he started going to the US, but from when he started to be able to hold his own against Amsah.
Anyway, I think people underestimate the old school players. Even if the skill level was lower, it still takes skill to be able to get ahead of everyone, and we have seen that many of the top players from that age are still able to do well, if they haven't quit.
*Hugs* the day I saw you and Mang0 coming into that Quiznos out by the Mid West House, and Mango was in his soccer uniform, and you were all puling up, then Ken came by. I knew that I would have my work cut out for me growing up in SoCal and trying to get better at Melee, and later Smash as a whole. But I know, that for a fact, you guys put more heart and love into the game than Aramada. And for that, hands down, Mango is the *GOAT*
"Ken, who did it with a bunch of elementary school children"
It's like the Wilt only played against short white guys argument
What matters is that when the last set of melee is played, Mang0 will be there... beating axe with mario.
I disagree about Armada being 2 years away from out of the conversation. If the top spot is in constant flux you will need to use other markers that take more time to verify.
If someday Armada comes back it is going to be amazing!
I don't understand how anyone can have a debate about it. It's Armada, hands down.
This. Mang0 and hbox are top 3 for sure, but the fact that you can count Armada's loses with one hand over a period of almost 10 years is just straight up goated.
Mango talked about it in his tweet. During the era of the 5 gods, armada was a god, be he still lost to the other gods quite a bit. The only 2 years of dominance were 2014 and 2015, and he still lost to other gods (and leffen) during that time.
Does anyone know the site Hugs used at 11:52?
Also remember: no one got good until Armada left. He was that dominant.
Didn't Hbox rank above him when they were both playing near the end of Armada's run?
@@theabner880 I mean then Wizzy won a tournament, None showed up, Zain started winning, Axe won summit, etc. Nothing like that ever happened during Armada's time, just him and Hbox coming first and second
Mango’s video about HBox’s retirement says it all. Being GOATed is having it all, losing it all, and coming back to be the best again. That’s what he’s looking for. And he’s gonna do it because he’ll be playing Melee until his hands fall off.
That’s so silly that’s like saying Jordan isn’t the goat because he never lost.
@@7cross288 Of course Jordan lost. Jordan literally lost more seasons than he won. Also it's not like prime Jordan retired when people were catching up to him.
Mango only said that because it applies to HIS journey
@@7cross288 To be fair you could consider taking 2 years off and losing in the Conference Finals playing poorly and then winning the next 3 fits OPs description. But yeah that's still way too specific of a GOAT description.
I love the random Blur guest appearances. True Goat.
Armada #1 Hungrybox #2 Mang0 #3 but like most people 2 and 3 are interchangeable
Would love to see a few community figures make their own ballots and then discuss them together for a few hours.
Armada is the GOAT...
For now.
Armada is the best we've had, but in like 15 years we'll look back and say mango was the greatest player to ever live.
Something to consider: The meta has shifted because Armada and M2K aren't playing, and Hbox isn't in top form anymore. As dominant forces, their playstyles forced everyone to play a bit differently.
I have *NO IDEA* how to quantify this. It's probably only something a top 10 player could even qualify if it's true.
gotta give it up to hbox and mango as the goats. they're still here winning. shoutout PPMD here in our hearts bruh
I can’t consider Armada the GoaT considering he quit playing because he could NOT beat hbox anymore. Guy just gave up while everyone else has surpassed hbox at this point. He quit, that’s not a goat move IMO.
@@Xalashaska I don’t think leffen is any contention for the title though so that’s irrelevant lol
That doesn't sound like the right narrative. Armada still had a winning record against Hbox.
@@nathanharris8896 right but it’s not ab his winning record w this guys point. He’s saying if’s a cowardly move for a goat. Armada cldve been up 50-0 but if in the last year or so hbox brought it to 50-49 and then armada left then that would look really bad. Hopefully this helped you understand.
Armada dominated hbox in his last year as a player, so what you said is completely false.
Hugs: starts a video
Me: open excel you bastard
I don't even like Jigglypuff (I play Falco) but Hbox is a serious contender. Especially when he can still wash Mango to this day
The real GOAT is Flax Seedz.
He's the final boss every goat must face after they get goated.
So I might not live to see tomorrow, I gave away an elite secret.
What is that website he's using to compare player results? I can't seem to find it.
Liquipedia
Kept playing and kept up dude if he sorry about this shit then come back and play if your retired ur out of the scene and u dont decide if ur goat or not other ppl do lol majority of goat lists just goes to who has won the most and thats that whos got the most #1s is the goat for pretty much everything
Is that an app at 11:40? I want to see statistics too
What is it?
I think it's this one, not sure though: liquipedia.net/smash/Special:RunQuery/Match_history?title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FMatch_history&Head_to_head_query=player%3DMango&pfRunQueryFormName=Match+history&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D%5B%5D=Mango&Head+to+head+query%5Bplayer%5D%5Bis_list%5D=1&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D%5B%5D=Hungrybox&Head+to+head+query%5Bopponent%5D%5Bis_list%5D=1&Head+to+head+query%5Bgame%5D=Melee&Head+to+head+query%5Btier%5D%5B0%5D=Premier&Head+to+head+query%5Btier%5D%5
The problem with the Armada-Mango Jordan-LeBron comparison is that Armada 1) plays a rare character that people have seldom any knowledge or practice against and 2) he doesn't even live in the US.
Notice how Leffen had the upper hand on him the latter half of Armada's career as shown by the dominant 3-0 at EVO? They played all the time in Sweden, so Leffen knew what to do. And PP definitely had the upper hand with Marth before his hiatus. Then Hbox and Puff is a given. Mango was going back and forth after his terrible 2015 year, and Plup was flipping the script on him with Sheik.
And now Zain. Even if Armada didn't retire, I wholeheartedly believe Zain could 3-stock the Peach comfortably. Think I'm crazy? The man showed Marth as a viable choice against PUFF! Armada REALLY would struggle against Zain full send.
Armada was a great student of the game and top 5 material easy, but he retired just as everyone was figuring him out.
Godlike thumbnail
The people that have kept this game alive are the goats. Melee forever.
Anyone who says the game isn't that different than it was in 2018 is on drugs. I played competitively back then and only watch now and even just watching the slippi tournaments going on right now, its clear just watching. The consistency of players utilizing tech that people didn't really use at all back then now and having to do reads based on that now is insane. Sheild drop BAITS are a thing now. Double amsa teching is common now. ASDI and Smash DI is on another level. I mean just look at the top marth in 2017/2018 vs Zain now, he looks like he is playing a different game.
Blur when he writes sounds like HUGS is crazy, but then when he talks and explains himself they kinda think the same thing...
I love hearing your opinions and perspectives on anything melee. Please keep bleeping your cussing and I'll stay subbed and support the channel
I have pretty female feet and im a male
prove it
Send pics
I will start to soon. The internet needs to get to know these little piggies
Either this comment is related to something in the vid or it's totally unrelated, either way Im terrified
Cashapp?
Yo HUGS makes some good ass shit. 23k subs is just the beginning.
Has to be Armada... been following melee for a long time n man when armada was on he was scary good
I think this should be settled in slippi championship league Mang0 vs Armada
While I do think armada is the goat, I also think it's sad that armada seems so tethered to the game despite not playing it anymore
Hugs is just reluctant to rank Ken higher because of EVO 2007
/s
I value taking Armada's peach to last stock, last game, with Mario.
The man teabagged the entire Melee community mid set and was still winning.
Scorpion Master proves Mango is the GOAT.
Is he using Tafostats to fact check during the “Armada’s Statement” segment? Or is this a different database?
I think HBox is the GOAT now. Being the best 2017-2019, probably would’ve been number 1 this year if irl tourneys were still a thing, it just means more to the best now then it did in 2013/14 for Mang0 or 15-16 for Armada.
Armada does have a overwhelming winning record over every other god though which I believe is the difference maker
Mang0 has actually has losing record to HBox since 2015 19-33
Would peak Armada even be able to consistently surpass current Zain's Marth?
I mean, the Peach matchup is clearly favorable for Marth (and Zain has been slapping spacies) and at Armada's peak the only Marth at the top was a falling off M2K who didn't even focus on Marth anymore.
I feel like if Zain was present in a pre-2018 era Armada would have plenty more losses (while still being at the top 3, ofc) whereas Mang0 would perform about the same.
I think the Greatest of All Time discussion really has to look at careers holistically. Longevity and tournament wins are very important. The Best of All Time discussion can be much more focused on the short term, more of a who was the most dominant for whatever time period. Armada will always be the BOAT in my mind, because his dominance is unrivaled and will likely never be recreated. BUT, Mang0 or somebody else could take the GOAT title with longevity and tournament wins. Relating it to basketball, Michael Jordan is the BOAT with no doubt, his peak is higher than every body else, and higher than anybody else's ever will be (6/7 championships is unreal), but LeBron could be the GOAT because of a 4/10 finals record, including 8 straight finals appearances, plus more to potentially come.
1.Armada( The man Rarely lost to anyone not on his level)
2.Mang0( Pioneer of Badass and Freestyle playstyle)
3.Hbox(Clutch king)
4.Mew2king( First god, First god slayer, the most important pioneer in smash made the top tier characters)
5.Ken ( First king and most important person in melee)
Didn't you do like an ENTIRE two hour long session with Blur about this?
That was back before armada quit, and ken still made his top 10. A lot has changed since then.
This video was good as hell
That fucking celeste music though
Let's see a real top 10
Top Drunk players. Who would win with a few shots in them?
Leffen was already better than Armada when he retired. He retired his Peach and was the best at the Fox ditto.
Duke are u saying armada was the best at the fox ditto?
@@iamawin8272 No, I was talking about Leffen.
Yeah as soon as Armada realized that people were catching up and adapting to his Peach, he quit.
@Ioulum That couldve changed, maybe, if he kept playing, but he didnt. The simple fact is that when Armada quit, he had lost his #1 spot a year before, and got 3-0d by Leffen in EVO. He couldnt even play Peach anymore. And then he quit. Adam has no right to be talking shit and pretending like he is still the best. He saw Cody and Zain in the horizon, two players that COMPLETELY invalidate BOTH of Armada's characters, and said "fuck it Im out". Come back and prove it or shut the fuck up.
2 years later and Mang0 is the GOAT. Glad that was settled.
Today? Wizzrobe for Sure could take wins on Armada-- N0ne too-- and ibdw would be beating Armada more than he beats Zain.
Tournaments today are way more brutal than they were in 2018.
Its different than michael lebron. It would be like if michael was in year 17, and then lebron came and started beating michael, but was also in year 17 and continued playing and winning.
Celeste music = instant like
Mmm yes I look forward to watching this together with tomorrows breakfast.
Seriously, the biggest problem is that Armada has kept a winning record over EVERYONE in the GOAT discussion(everyone in general actually). Had it been closer, I could get the arguments about him not being the GOAT anymore at some point, but realistically speaking. unless a new top player like IDBW or Zain start dominating like crazy for like 5 years(let's say been 3 years best by far and 2 times second), I don't see how Armada can loose his GOAT status. If you look at actual stats, there's none where Armada is not leading BESIDE longevity, and it's not like he retired because he was injured or anything.
Take it like this, if James and Jordan played in the same era, but Jordan mostly won then retired at 30 and then Lebron started winning more, would that be relevant? We can only debate Jordan vs James because they played in different Era, unlike Chamberlan and Russell. You'll never see Chamberlan over Russel in any Goat discussion in NBA because Russell won so much more while playing each other.
7:38 Hugo explains the law of diminishing marginal utility.
If he gets back to 1 at least 1 year he def has it
i still dont get why hungrybox is not in this convo, i dont follow melee a whole lot btw i am just really curious
Stats.
Zoap. You’re still alive?
Me too. You might be my dad.
Wtf?
Youre in my top 5 hugo
Armada is clearly the GOAT as of right now. Not sure there's an argument there. But HugS and mango were saying that if mango reaches 1 again, he is debatably GOAT, which personally I agree with. Proving able to adapt to every era of melee besides the ancient times, overcome every modern player and reach rank 1 shows that mango could do it over everyone. If he gets back to rank 1 then he'll have been rank 1 at some point over nearly everyone ever relevant.
I don't get Blur. He seemed very upset in chat, and started his monologue with "I used to respect your opinions", but in the end, he basically repeated what Hugs was already saying.
blur's a troll, 100% he's not taking anything personally
What are jokes for 300
@@frankniggums6757 I didn't mean "upset" as "took it personnally", but more as "upset at how much Hugs's opinions suck".
In the end, y'all have to be correct, it has to be a joke, there is no other explanation. I guess I just don't find it funny.
I'm procrastinating, so let me develop my opinion: Before getting called a hater, I want to say I admire the guy and what he has done for Melee. I've probably seen everything there is to see from Blur on TH-cam (yes, I watch too much TH-cam, i know) and he seems to have a modus-operandi similar to what we just witnessed and I find it soooo unopbtimal. He as a wealth of knowledge and experience and professes to care about the health of Melee more than anything else... but then he inserts himself unprepared into a (often important) conversation like a troll with inflammatory language, monopolizes the discussion with bold claims, uses dubious rhetoric like a high school student trying to win a debate at all cost, changes his stances mid-conversation/makes contradictory statements and ends up joking most of the time, sometimes seemingly to avoid responding to good arguments. This video does not show all of that and is not on a particularly important subject (although, not totally benign), but I'm thinking of stuff like the BOXX and UCF when they were controversial.
tl;dr He is a troll, when he could be so much more
When Hbox talked about retiring after getting bodied over netplay mid quarantine after not practicing and playing ultimate on stream for days mang0 said something that stuck with me. He said something along the lines of “When you’re on that top peak of melee as #1 it’s great. You feel like a god. But you need to stay on top of it because while you’re on the top everyone else is still climbing and trust me when you look down and you see a bunch of crack head fox mains clawing their way to the peak it’s fucking scary” And I find that quote is relevant talking about armada now. Retiring as soon as more people start to get good enough to match the level of play he demonstrated throughout the mid 2010’s seems like an easy way to say “oh well when I stopped no one could beat me so I’m the best” I’d love to see him come back and demonstrate he’s as dominant as he was but what I’d love more is to see him come back and get absolutely TOSSED by Zain’s Roy.
@Ioulum show me his most recent set
Why is the new trend the debate between Mango and Armada? Love him or hate him, isn't Hbox supposed to be in this convo? I know the Melee scene likes Mango a lot though.
Aren’t we forgetting hbox,? I mean, he is still ranked 1 in the world, 2 if zain takes it.
there is no way hbox gets #2 this year
Lol Hbox isnt even gonna be Top 4 this year.
@@gilgamesh5796 @Stray Dog Hey guys, did y'all forget that there isn't even gonna be a ranking this year?
@@Goreblender this year will have rankings? I thought it wouldn’t
@@BringBackOGClubPenguin Im aware, people are still gonna rank them and discuss with others, based results in the online tournaments. And nobody is gonna say that Hbox was Top 4 this year.